Edward Snowden presents a very complicated case. It’s basically impossible to argue with any of the following and, yet, it is undeniable that Snowden violated the trust placed in him and broke the law.
“For me, in terms of personal satisfaction, the mission’s already accomplished,” he said. “I already won. As soon as the journalists were able to work, everything that I had been trying to do was validated. Because, remember, I didn’t want to change society. I wanted to give society a chance to determine if it should change itself.”
“All I wanted was for the public to be able to have a say in how they are governed,” he said. “That is a milestone we left a long time ago. Right now, all we are looking at are stretch goals.”
‘Going in blind’
Snowden is an orderly thinker, with an engineer’s approach to problem-solving. He had come to believe that a dangerous machine of mass surveillance was growing unchecked. Closed-door oversight by Congress and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court was a “graveyard of judgment,” he said, manipulated by the agency it was supposed to keep in check. Classification rules erected walls to prevent public debate.
Toppling those walls would be a spectacular act of transgression against the norms that prevailed inside them. Someone would have to bypass security, extract the secrets, make undetected contact with journalists and provide them with enough proof to tell the stories.
The NSA’s business is “information dominance,” the use of other people’s secrets to shape events. At 29, Snowden upended the agency on its own turf.
“You recognize that you’re going in blind, that there’s no model,” Snowden said, acknowledging that he had no way to know whether the public would share his views.
“But when you weigh that against the alternative, which is not to act,” he said, “you realize that some analysis is better than no analysis. Because even if your analysis proves to be wrong, the marketplace of ideas will bear that out. If you look at it from an engineering perspective, an iterative perspective, it’s clear that you have to try something rather than do nothing.”
By his own terms, Snowden succeeded beyond plausible ambition. The NSA, accustomed to watching without being watched, faces scrutiny it has not endured since the 1970s, or perhaps ever.
I’ve had very little to say about Edward Snowden or his revelations. That’s probably because of the ambivalence I feel about how he should be treated. I didn’t want to defend his actions, but I also didn’t want defend the behavior his actions divulged.
On some level, I think he has been vindicated, and that we cannot plausibly argue that his revelations have not been a net positive for the public. Yet, I also think that the government is justified in treating him like a criminal who has clearly harmed national security and foreign relations. More to the point, it’s hard for me to see how the state could show leniency in this case without putting our national security and foreign relations at further risk.
Perhaps the best balance is for the government to acknowledge that it needs to restrain itself and curtail the extent of its surveillance while submitting to more oversight, while finding a way to deal with Snowden that provides some deterrence against future leakers, but does less than throw the book at him.
Unfortunately, I can’t quite imagine a solution that strikes the perfect balance between the two imperatives. Partly, this is a problem of blame-shifting. The administration bears some responsibility for the excesses of the Intelligence Community, but it doesn’t bear all of the responsibility. Therefore, the administration cannot and should not simply throw the Intelligence Community under the bus, but the Intelligence Community shouldn’t go to war with the administration if their activities are curtailed and some jobs are lost as part of an accountability project. They also should not act like they have been betrayed if Snowden is allowed to come home without spending the rest of his life prison.
At the same time, the Intelligence Community can correctly argue that the vast bulk of their activities were authorized, and that their secrets need to be protected in order for them to be able to conduct their business with foreign services and domestic corporations. Snowden cannot simply be given a pass.
This creates an excruciating set of decisions for the Obama administration, but they must be guided by a sense of fairness, and they must take their lumps along with everyone else.
I’m wondering how you’d assess this if you were privy to the kinds of intelligence the President sees every day. He is overprotective of the Americans
As far as I am concerned, Snowden can still go and pound sand. I generally agree wih your sentiments, except that I think he’s an egotistical asshole (like Assange) who sees things in black and white and doesn’t comprehend that the world is a complex place.
I hope he’s enjoying doing whatever the hell it is you do in Mother Russia at this time of year.
The propagandists love it when you see issues in terms of personalities, then buy into their demonizing of the personality in question.
Wikileaks wasn’t about Julian Assange’s personal actions – it was about the US government doing all kinds of shit it shouldn’t have – and feeling so confident that this would never be revealed that they allowed someone with the lowest security clearance to download it all.
The latest level of leaks isn’t about what you think of Snowden or Greenwald – it’s about the illegal, systematic monitoring of the world’s population without oversight at a level as scary as 1984, and the use of that information in increasingly negative ways.
Why you frame these issues in terms of those personalities you are doing the same things as the pollution advocates who frame ecological issues in terms of Al Gore.
I disagree with you. It was the government’s own actions that “clearly harmed national security and foreign relations,” not Snowden’s.
I agree… Those who trot out the argument that he harmed national security need to come with some actual evidence not idle speculation. It’s time to redefine the “national interest” and “security” in ways that actually reflect the values and interests of Americans. There is little to be gained for me by having the military going around the world blowing shit up and intervening in every damn conflict between barbarians and religious fanatics.
So how about it, Mr. Longman… what are the national interests you think Snowden put at risk? Has Goldman Sachs lost some money somewhere overseas?
There is zero evidence that the NSA is keeping us from being attacked. Schools, theaters, malls, etc get shot up all the time by crazy terrorists and no one cares to do anything about that. Some nutjob in KS converts to islam and it entrapped into some scheme to do something and he gets put in jail. What the heck?
American “national interest” and “security” used to mean not getting involved in other countries’ business. We were isolationists for a LONG time.
Is it a coincidence that that was the same period when we grew into the world’s most powerful economic engine? We defaulted into the world’s policemen by default. Not because we were powerful as much as that we were undamaged.
When you think about how much damned money has been and will be spent on making other countries malleable for U.S. corporations, when that money could be being spent on our own people and infrastructure…
%0 years ago you heard the hue and cry “Guns or Butter.” We chose guns. No, WE didn’t. The gun lobby talked “our” representatives into choosing guns. Since that got well started, it’s all been downhill – except for investment class people.
I had a Top Secret Crypto clearance long ago. It meant nothing except that they could hold it over people’s heads. There is nothing more moral or reliable or loyal about spooks than there is about anyone else. Classification of documents and actions and people and names and intel is actually not as important as everyone thinks it is. 99% of it doesn’t need to be secret at all. As Snowden’s papers showed, much of it is just to keep from embarrassing our outing people who are doing nefarious and no-no things. Most of the stuff that is classified never should have been.
But all this spook and secret stuff just feeds into the mindset of the slightly/very wacky imaginary world of authority lovers and wannabe GI Joe heroes and wannabe James Bonds. They build themselves up in their minds, as the defenders of the faith, like Jesuits. IT IS ALL A CULT. And they’ve latched onto a huge portion of our government and have no intention of letting go. Everything that happens they can spin into life or death of Freedom over some demonized “other.”
Seriously, they are the most fucked up people in the world – and we trust them with our protection? People, we need protection from THEM, more than anybody else. From the patently insane gung-ho ones, the sociopaths. But even more from the droll automatons who direct the psychos. And they all feed off each other. They ALL think of themselves as special – empowered, entitled, and above all of us who aren’t on the inside. They are a culture apart, and their “America” is not yours and mine but the one that has been enslaving bit by bit us since 1945.
When someone cries out “Freedom,” cover your wallet and barricade your homes – and kiss freedom goodbye.
We would all be better off without them and the USA going back to isolationism – and spending that trillion dollars a years on US instead of feeding their sickness.
That was supposed to be “50 years ago”…
Precisely!
And I don’t WANT to see future leakers deterred. If the government won’t control it’s own agencies, then someone has to do it.
I am reminded of the old adage: “oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive.”
And just a reminder, when Bush started this (as early as October 2001) people like me SAID shit like this was bound to happen. And it did. It’s the fruit of a poison vine.
It is a dilemma. I think the best result would be Holder negotiating a plea deal in which Snowden pleads guilty to violating his security oath (i.e. perjury) in exchange for probation. I don’t want to see him jailed, but he did break the law. But then again so did Martin Luther King and many others and we are glad that they did.
And the Congressional perjury coming from NSA heads?
They should go to jail for that. No deals because their oath was knowingly false when they gave it. I don’t believe Snowden gave his oath falsely, but found out afterward how unAmerican the NSA had become.
Don’t hold your breath waiting for such an eventuality, Voice. It would freeze this government in its tracks. Why? Because up and down the system “oaths” of that sort are are broken day and night. They are broken because that’s the way the system works. You put up a front of respectability and honor in order to get elected/get appointed/pass media-controlled muster with the populace and then you do whatever is necessary to win. That’s the way it works, from small-town politics right on up to international decisions. Are Bush I and II, Cheney, Rumsfeld, the Clintons and Kissinger in jail? Of course not. Clapper et al are small potatoes in comparison. Deal wid it, because it ain’t gonna change any time soon. Bet on it.
AG
P.S. Same idea in the so-called “private” sector. No holds barred fighting rather than Queensbury rules. As Mark Twain so aptly put it over 100 years ago, “Those who respect the law and love sausage should watch neither being made.” Nothing new here except scale.
Not holding my breath, Arthur. I’ve got funny ideas about oaths based on what my grandfather taught me, but he was an uneducated Italian peasant. Peasants don’t own anything but their honor.
You cannot prevaricate forever. This man did the right thing. He is a hero. The results…so far…support that statement. Will the Secrecy/Surveillance State simply back off a notch and improve its cover? Probably, when all is said and done. No matter. Snowden struck a blow for individual freedom in a system that is becoming more Borg-like by the day. He uncovered a seret system that is dedicated to the continuation of militarily-enforced economic imperialism both internationally and within the country that it supposedly protects, and it is perfectly obvious that such a strategy is insupportable in the long run. “Them injuns got repeatin’ rifles now, Homer!!! We are in trouble” And nukes/other WMDs, too. It is only a matter of time before one of two things happen:
1-WMDs are used on an appreciably large scale. A city, more than likely. It makes no difference who first uses them, Pandora’s gonna have a field day.
or
2-The U.S. backs off of the world’s feed trough and begins to get its own shit together. It can still be done. So much human intelligence, talent and aspiration is being wasted in this country! Human ecology is the answer to all of our problems, not Marines shooting their way through third world countries and drones blowing up wedding parties.
Yet you continue to prevaricate. I believe in your heart of hearts you know better. Stand the fuck up. Snowden did. Big time!!! Try it. You might find yourself a happier man. A more honorable one, for sure.
Later…
AG
Not often I agree with you AG, but this time I do!
I do keep trying. Glad to be of service on this supposedly peaceful day. I wonder if the drones take a break on Christmas. My bet? They don’t.
AG
P.S. I have always enjoyed your posts from Ireland, Frank. Ireland is my three-generations-back homeland, and I was raised to be “Irish” in both behavioral and social areas. I say what I mean in no uncertain terms and I am ready to back up what I say in any manner necessary or change my mind if proven wrong. With what parts of my fairly consistent posts regarding politics and society do you so often disagree?
Ditto, Frank. I don’t usually agree with him either, but when he’s right, he’s right.
yet, it is undeniable that Snowden violated the trust placed in him and broke the law.
The first part of your statement is true for all whistleblowers. As to the second part of the statement, his revelations have proven that the US government which made those laws is in fact in violation of its own laws and its own Constitution. What other possible course of action did he have to address that problem? Report it to his superiors? Of course not – the system would have protected itself. In order to expose this lawbreaking he had to himself break the law.
Let’s go back to the cast of characters. Months ago I said this seemed to be a psyops of some sort run to injure Obama. It was a sort of “blame the black guy” moment we keep getting with our current Commander-In-Chief. Everything with the surveillance program was in place and functioning long before Obama was first sworn in.
Who benefits from creating a scenario that the black guy has been spying on us? Well, internationally it helps the Germans who don’t seem content being sidekicks to the US. That’s why I wondered if the BND had turned Snowden. Snowden himself shows no history of being a civil libertarian. A libertarian in the Ron Paul vein, but not civil.
(I’d also mention that it was a German BND spy ship in the eastern Mediterranean that fed the US the worthless intelligence “linking” Assad’s government to the sarin attacks. Cui bono, if Obama gets into another war and helps the Sunnis cut off heads in Syria?)
I mentioned the simularities of this operation to the CIA’s false defector program of the late fifties.
But the tell here is Judge Leon, who in the 1980s was a loyal Bush footsoldier who helped to cover up Iran-contra and the October Surprise. Not only were those two scandals very political, they also involved our intelligence services. And who was the litigant? Why, it’s Larry Klayman, famed for his work trying to bring down Clinton during Monicagate.
So my guess is that whoever Snowden is working for he’s being watched over by his handlers, be they German or American. I don’t worry about him. He doesn’t seem to be worrying himself.
“For me, in terms of personal satisfaction, the mission’s already accomplished,” Snowden told the Post.
Hmm. “Mission accomplished.”
Happy to see that I’m not the only one who understands this.
Snowden/Greenwald drove a big wedge between the economic justice backbone of the Democratic Party and the civil libertarian absolutists out on the fringes, and now Judge Leon has thrown gasoline on the smoldering coals left over from this summer’s pie fight. What else would you expect from a loyal torpedo in the Bush Family crime syndicate?
Wise up, people, you are being played.
You’re speculating that Snowden may be been driven by a group of people who had other motives. I’m cool with that … as a rule I never accept at face value what the news media reports. I’m not saying it happened, just saying that it’s a possibility.
But that doesn’t change the fact that his actions, if done by an individual, still meet the criteria I described above.
Hypothetical: A low level functionary in 1934 in Nazi Germany finds plans to build death camps and round up millions of citizens in order to kill them. Does he break the law by telling everyone about it, or does he follow the law and keep silent?
Chelsea Manning released videos of US Helo pilots laughing while killing unarmed men, women and children.
Snowden released proof that the National Security State is going down the same road as the East German Stasi.
The National Security State must treat them both as criminals because they released proof of the evils committed by The State. Their ‘criminal activity’ is completely exonerated by the fact that they exposed the pure evil of the USA to the public.
Manning and Snowden are heroes that deserve our support.
It is undeniable that Snowden violated the trust placed in him and broke the law.
We have laws in place to protect whistleblowers, who are by definition people who violate trust, and sometimes the law, in order to expose greater wrongdoing. When the Snowden case first broke, people could at least plausibly argue, as you have, that the wrongdoing exposed was not greater than the very serious laws Snowden broke. We had incomplete information at that time. At this point, there is no question that Snowden is a whistleblower in the classic sense of the word.
The irony is that the exact same mindset that has led to these security state abuses is also responsible for the Obama administration’s terrible record on respecting the rights of (let alone honoring, as they should) whistleblowers. Obama’s record on these issues has been terrible – perhaps the worst of any American president, ever – and that has been reflected in how the administration and our obediently courtesan media has framed Snowden’s acts.
I don’t see the issue as complicated at all. Snowden is a whistleblower; there is now no doubt as to the gravity of the policies he has exposed. Anything less than treatment of him as an American hero is an endorsement of the idea that the American security state is and should be above the law and beyond accountability.
And FWIW, I am so tired of people justifying persecution of people like Snowden, Manning, and Assange by citing obnoxious personality traits. That’s no more relevant than judging a potential president by whether you think you’d like to have a beer with him.
I’m not sure why this comment got troll-rated. Seemed reasonably on-point, measured, with nary a whiff of personal attacks on anyone here. Strange.
Too much eggnog?
I prefer the truth about the nefarious and possibly illegal and unconstitutional policies and/or actions OUR government engages in. If that can only be achieved by individuals that have access to such information and a conscience that won’t let them sleep until the public is informed, then those people are the true patriots and should be treated as such.
Why in the hell would we want to discourage such individuals? They are rare enough as it is. We need to hear from more of them. Listen when they speak and take appropriate action instead of turning them into pariahs. We need to hear from the Bunnatine Greenhouses at the SEC, etc.
I think it’s just about where it needs to be. I agree that the NSA is operating without the oversight it needs. I am not convinced that we live in some sort of “Borg-like police state” and everyone who starts talking about that loses my support. They collected phone numbers. They didn’t have enough oversight. We need to fix that.
But we should absolutely be listening in on Angela Merkel’s and David Cameron’s and (especially) Benjamin Netanyahu’s cell phones. We should be spying on other countries. Because they sure as fuck are spying on us. As a French diplomat said, “We are really just jealous of the abilities of the NSA, not the process.”
Snowden did a public service, but he did it by breaking a law that is not “unjust” in the sense of Jim Crow. We need intelligence agencies to operate in some sort of secrecy. But what Snowden did was important.
So, let him stay in Russia. Let him travel to wherever he wants. He can’t come home again, unless some future President pardons him. He’s not in prison, but he’s not technically free.
That seems about right to me.
“Snowden did a public service, but he did it by breaking a law that is not “unjust” in the sense of Jim Crow.”
Read my comment below.
There is history here, and it needs to be understood. The U.S. wouldn’t even EXIST without abuses by governments against its citizens, specifically this kind of abuse. We would all be part of the British Commonwealth of the United States.
I think it’s just about where it needs to be. I agree that the NSA is operating without the oversight it needs. I am not convinced that we live in some sort of “Borg-like police state” and everyone who starts talking about that loses my support. They collected phone numbers. They didn’t have enough oversight. We need to fix that.
But we should absolutely be listening in on Angela Merkel’s and David Cameron’s and (especially) Benjamin Netanyahu’s cell phones. We should be spying on other countries. Because they sure as fuck are spying on us. As a French diplomat said, “We are really just jealous of the abilities of the NSA, not the process.”
Snowden did a public service, but he did it by breaking a law that is not “unjust” in the sense of Jim Crow. We need intelligence agencies to operate in some sort of secrecy. But what Snowden did was important.
So, let him stay in Russia. Let him travel to wherever he wants. He can’t come home again, unless some future President pardons him. He’s not in prison, but he’s not technically free.
That seems about right to me.
Life imprisonment with no possibility of parole would be the best and I think most likely outcome if he were captured and returned to America to face justice.
If he returned on his own, then life with parole after 30yrs. would probably be the best he could hope for.
Put him in a cell next to Jonathan Pollard, where all the traitors belong.
How would you feel if Russia or China or the EU or the Murdoch empire had a similar intelligence capability and was using their technology to spy on you and all other US citizens, to steal your intellectual property and commercial secrets, and to blackmail you as the need/opportunity arose? Would you be so sanguine and conflicted then? All great freedom fighters, liberators and whistleblowers break the law – an unjust law or to expose other unjust practices. Would you turn Snowden (whatever his personal qualities) into a martyr like Mandela? This level of surveillance is simply incompatible with Democracy and peaceful relations with other states – it is an act of war against other states, and Boeing losing the fighter jet contract in Brazil is just the tip of the iceberg of the damage it will do.
What makes you think that this is not the case, Frank? It’s Spy. vs. Spy vs. Spy up and down the line now. Bet on it.
Bet on it.
AG
The EU doesn’t even have an intelligence service, the Chinese focus on commercial espionage, and the Russians have a capability some way south of Israel. I’m sorry, but no one even comes close to what the US can and does do. Just look at US defense expenditure compared to the rest of the world. I think people (and bloggers) in the US have become accustomed to degree of militarization and surveillance which is just weird to almost everyone else – bar say in a few US minions like Israel, England and France.
Prove to me that the Chinese “focus on commercial espionage,” Frank. You cannot. That’s why they call it “secret.” The EU is comprised of sovereign states, so ditto on that account. Only the other surveillance states really have a clue about what is going on, and since 20-something hackers in their dingy little apartments can “surveill” w/the big boys…witness Wikileaks, etc…who the fuck really knows who is doing what to whom? It’s a mess, and no one is telling the truth about it. That’s why they call it “secret.” Bet on it.
As powerful software and hardware becomes cheaper, more easily available and stronger while the expertise needed it use it becomes less and less demanding, who knows where it will end? We are already besieged with online ads touting products and services for which we have searched online. When does it get to a place where a group of people start talking about having pizza or Chinese food delivered and suddenly the phone starts to ring off the hook with “special offers?” Or you write an online piece or message critical of the government and 10 minutes later you hear the jackboots coming up the stairs. That’s not too far a jump to imagine, Frank. It really isn’t. Bet on that as well.
It’s got to stop and stop now. If it doesn’t, Orwells’ 1984 will begin to look like kiddie cartoon TV in comparison.
Later…
S.
It is undeniable that Snowden violated the trust placed in him and broke the law.
What, like John Adams, Sam Adams, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington et al weren’t breaking English laws? Like all the colonists fighting to get free of England weren’t doing the same?
AND WHY?
What fomented the American Revolution?
ABUSES BY THE ENGLISH CROWN, and treating the Colonists differently than citizens in England itself. Not a smart thing to do, when the citizens KNEW their rights in England.
Similarly, Snowden KNEW his rights and the rights of the citizenry HERE AND NOW.
As Federal Judge Richard Leon ruled, the 4th Amendment was being violated. The Bill of Rights is not just puff pastry on the laws of the USA. It is part of the highest law of the land. The 4th Amendment, in particular, was put into the Constitution SPECIFICALLY to address GOVERNMENTAL abuses of the sanctity of the person, his property, and his papers.
Shades of the NSA.
On the 4th amendment Wiki is particularly educational:
In other words, there wouldn’t even BE a U.S. Constitution if they had not relented and put in the Bill of Rights and SPECIFICALLY the 4th Amendment.
The 4th Amendment is as integral to the U.S. and its form of government as is The Preamble.
In its final form, it reads,
Boo for you on this one, BooMan.
Invading our privacy with what used to be called “blanket warrants” is something the English did that precipitated the American Revolution.
The government asserts that without this our national security is jeopardized. HOPGWASH. Bullshit. They could assert the same thing about assassinating people, too. Would you agree to that? (Since they have done so much of that in the past, are we inured to it now?)
This NSA program is ILLEGAL, against the Constitution. Period. The Bill of Rights EXISTS to prevent exactly this kind of abuse by the government – as a PROTECTION against THIS kind of abuse. The people like Snowden were being asked to violate the Constitution – by the very people who swore to UPHOLD the Constitution, including Bush II and Obama. Their orders to him and those around him were Constitutionally illegal.
The ISSUANCE of those orders were, in themselves, illegal, and should never have been followed by ALL the agents under them.
…Let’s go back to the end of WWII, and the Nuremburg trials. How many of those on trial argued that, “I was just following orders”? Eichmann sure did. And what was the position of the courts and the entire U.S. and other Allied governments?
“No, that is insufficient defense; you should have KNOWN those were illegal orders, and you should have refused to follow those orders.”
They HUNG PEOPLE for not refusing.
Now the shoe is on the other foot, and in THIS case, orders to violate the Constitution are okay? Because of American exceptionalism? Snowden is REQUIRED to follow orders, even when he knows – and the judge agrees – that they are illegal orders?
Or do you argue that since it is not murder, then it is okay to follow illegal orders?
Just because it is the U.S., and not Nazis, illegal orders must still be followed?
Hypocrisy, thy name is BooMan, on this one.
Shame on ya, Dude.
Your discomfort is not over what Edward Snowden did, it is over the violation of trust that the entire intelligence community has shown in its shredding of the Constitution. That is the first violation of trust is the source of your ambivalence over how to respond to Snowden’s violation of trust because “two wrongs don’t make a right”.
What to do with Snowden? Make the necessary changes in the US intelligence community, apologize to Evo Morales, drop the charges, and pardon Snowden so that no right-wing future President can persecute him. When he gets home, give him the Medal of Freedom (unless he refuses it because it is already tainted).
Not a bad scenario.
But since it was Obama who was embarrassed by Snowden, Obama certainly isn’t going to pardon Snowden.
I propose that another country give Snowden a Consul job, giving him immunity. At the same time, I doubt that the U.S. would honor the immunity…
Edward Snowden should be a free man, and the government should encourage this type of action.
Of course, that’s in a world with a functioning representative government.
We don’t got one of those.