I have gone back and forth on unconditional love. Firstly, unlike most people I’ve always felt that unconditional love was a vice, not an altruism.
I value science, I do not see physical science as distinct in the least from philosophy or politics. The lessons are very human, and in fact, somewhat religious in nature. For example, nearly all religions I’m familiar with teach humility of some kind as a supreme virtue, and the history of science teaches this ten times over, first unseating us from our special place at the center of the universe. And every time it unseated us, and we accepted a lesser but still semi-central stature, we have been unseated again.
Modern man still isn’t quite aware how complete the dethronement has been, and wonders things like “do animals have souls” or more likely doesn’t wonder and treats them as if they don’t.
Unconditional love is a vice, but I believe in it. I believe in it because I have to, I’m stuck with it. I can put conditions on anything, but not my hope and love. I can believe in harsh sides of love, I can believe a mother that unconditionally loves her child can turn him into the police, or refuse something he claims to need.
I believe there is so much vice in the world we can’t sort the world into the worthy and unworthy. This is not some selfless concept, I repeat again so you might believe me. I’m not claiming that unconditional love is selfless.
Shall we love our enemy? Can you love them and still fight for your survival against them? If so, and I think so, then yes, love thy enemy. Can we trust Republicans… does love require trust? Conditional love does, but unconditional love happens even in the absence of trust. So it’s possible to love, unconditionally, and still not trust. Do I love Rush Limbaugh. Well, not warmly, but do I hold out the hope that Rush might grow and learn, or his children might, or his listeners? Yes.
The meek shall inherit the earth… that maxim always appealed to me because I see the meek not as the weak, but as those who are slaves to unconditional love. Their unconditional love leads them into trust and other things implied but not really required by their love.
I believe the free world of the future only comes when the meek as I’ve defined them find the power of their voice and perspective. It’ll happen when the meek find out how to fight for what they believe and win.
This is in contradiction to the idea many have of meek which is merely the dictionary definition #2 in this definition from American Heritage (via dictionary.com)
1. Showing patience and humility; gentle.
2. Easily imposed on; submissive.
I say that the meek are really definition (1) but have been easy victims using their patience and gentle humility against them so far, and this gave them a reputation as definition 2. To me, 1 is fundamental and 2 is mere libel. You can say they are easily imposed on, but then why do they never give up? Why do they persist? Their patience has lead to submission but doesn’t have to and will not forever. They struggle to overcome and do.
And this is how I as an atheist interpret Christ’s influence. Christ’s message is so far from the message of most Churchs and most Christians now and throughout history one wonders why they carried it to the present, and for me it’s because the power of the meek, while so far an undercurrent, will still have it’s day in the sun, and when it arrives it will be much more stable and robust. Mankind as we know it cannot imagine peace on Earth, but the meek can.
It was the assertion of a very strong message about the power of unconditional love, and about the reality that people do change. The strength to have patience comes from the reality that all things change, which gives hope.
So I warned you this time I was meandering, but if I owe you a point it’s merely that, there is no such thing as conditional love, only alliance can be conditional, love is its own condition.
But if I can get away with just a question instead of a point, then it’s “What does ‘unconditional love’ mean to you?”
Can be: Heaven
Hell
Rewarding
Non-rewarding
Warm
cold
Respect
Disrespect
Life
Death
But most of all, it is Love, and it is Unconditional, if it is TRUE
of unconditional love being a vice. If it is, it’s a vice you have to work hard at (as opposed to most vices, which you have work hard to avoid).
But I do agree that it isn’t selfless. Unconditional love can be based (not sure it is in all instances) in the logical belief that everyone’s well-being improves your own, and that includes your enemy’s. Unconditional love, then, can be an acknowledgement of working for your enemy’s improvement and well-being, even when they are diametrically opposed to it and to you.
More meandering… 🙂
I’ve come to the conclusion that it is a vice for many people… that is, it comes naturally, and they are equally naturally taken advantage of. So they have to work hard sometimes to steel their heart and not let it mean they are taken advantage of. But it doesn’t, I don’t think, mean giving up on the love they naturally feel, because one can realize that one is doing no favors to allow oneself to be taken advantage of.
“Unconditional love, then, can be an acknowledgement of working for your enemy’s improvement and well-being, even when they are diametrically opposed to it and to you.”
exactly… the answer to having your unconditional love taken advantage of is to work harder at it, if you love your enemy in this sense you do them no favor letting yourself be taken advantage of and your love should call up the strength to stop the advantage taking… for their good as well as yours.
Have to think about that one. Maybe I’m just a hard-ass in some areas, but there’s very few people I’ve allowed to take advantage of me…
Love is the cruelest emotion.
I beleive Pyrro was refering to this post at least in part.
Loyalty is indeed a demand for unconditional love. The difference is that loyalty is demanded of an impersonal organisation group or other concept, not a person.
also my dairy at dkos on needing a new way of thinking… these are related issues but which can be considered separately and have to be.
this is just how I sort things out.
but the “Meander” part was specifically to warn you David!
Dammit, pyrrho, now I’ll think about this all week. I’ve been like a dog chasing his tail on this one for years.
Somewhat O/T, but I felt a bit of unconditional love toward your actions on Saturday night Rolfy. (And I intend to try your recipe for Minestrone soup)
I got a bit irritated about inappropriate behavior and the need to some to ‘not be wise and demonize’. Then I had an attck of pyrrho and decided to try to channel something positive and humorus and possibly useful. Hence the recipes and soul music.
so I missed another mob event I guess.
Didn’t miss nothin’. Only venom and hissy fits. I got stubborn and posted a bunch of recipes. It got to the place where I was taking requests from interested observers.
in fact, I took the whole weekend off of news… didn’t know till late last night the Pope had died.
That was one of those rare moments where I regretted closing out the e-mail address I had used to register at that site. You made me smile in the midst of unwarranted ugliness, and I ended up reading only your posts in that thread.
I’ve considered it over and over for years. I’ve wondered what even is best for all involved, what is the moral as you no doubt have and many others have. Everyone has their answer of what “should” be the case.
But I have come to the conclusion that the question is not about a moral imperative of any kind. I think it’s more about nature. If you are burdened with an unconditional love then there you are. You have no choice but to believe in it, defend it and yourself. Trying to be conditional with your love just won’t go.
If you are conditional with your love, then I think you have to wonder what your love really is and why you call it love rather than strategy or calculation… though as far as I know it is still “love” that doesn’t mean much because as far as I know no one has ever come up with a final definition for love anyway.
So now I see a world with a deficit of love, and this has tipped the scale to me. The world is all screwed up enough to not be able to claim it deserves love by passing the “conditions”… so where will we get that love if not from the wells of those with access to unconditional love in their heart?
It’s a wonderful meander though, and a thought provoking one. I think the word meek has been so debased and confused with weak that it’s a hard word to aspire to. But it’s worth the effort.
My life has been haunted by a Professor of Philosophy, whose daughter whom we all totally lusted after, walked hand in hand along Blundellsands beach with a blonde lass who was becoming the centre of my attentions at the time.
“I was” , she told me a few days later whilst excruciatingly twisting the knife by describing the circumstances under which the conversation was held, “a subject of their discussions”.
“The problem with Welshman”, this elegant middle aged intellectual Lothario explained to his young student, “the problem with Welshman is that he has never been in love”.
I have never been so angry. Was this man not only just dismissing me in the the mind of the girl but also using me to advance his own superior knowledge of the subject and therefore his own claims to her affections?
What did he mean? Did he mean anything?
I have subsequently measured my emotional self against my condition at that precise time. It has not changed in all these long years.
Ergo, he was wrong or I have still never been in love.
It worries me. But I cannot answer your question.
speak of love and none understand it so well.
that’s my impression at least.
My first response without thinking too much is that unconditional love only exists as parents’ love for their children.
Let’s say parental love must be unconditional and if it is not, there will be trouble.
There must be other relationships based on unconditional love but I have not had my coffee yet.