[From the diaries by susanhbu.] Cross-posted at Daily Kos
Since Dean pissed off Tom Hayden and Dennis Kucinich last week, and Kerry pissed off Kos and a bunch of other folks this week, it’s been a full-bore circular firing squad around here lately. And I’ve come to realize that we’re still harboring a lot of resentment towards one another over the primary. Doesn’t make much sense, and seems kind of silly, but there it is. Name calling, snarky “I’ll stop when you stop” playground comments, attempts to prove that this guy is more of a hypocrite than that guy…it’s stupid. We sound like a bunch of juvenile idiots.
So herewith, my attempt to lay out some explanations and guidelines to get us over ourselves.
Howard Dean has the support of millions of Democrats
Those of you pissed at Dean, or who just don’t like him, or who just don’t like his supporters, need to learn to accept that he’s a popular guy. It doesn’t demean you, John Kerry, liberalism, centrism, or anyone or anything else to admit that he has the support of millions of Democrats. Stop with the knee-jerk “I’ve got to counter anything good said about Howard Dean” bullshit. It’s tired and old. Us long-time Deaniacs would like to work on issues of substance and stop having to defend our guy every single goddamn day from our own fellow Democrats. Give us a moment’s peace so we can listen to the right shriek about him (at least their caterwauling is amusing in its futility).
Reality: Dean led in the primaries. Don’t give me the “Undecided always led” bullshit. Undecided wasn’t a candidate. Undecided was a bracket filled with the ABB crowd, just waiting for someone to emerge. If Dean won Iowa, he would have gotten the same groundswell Kerry got. But he didn’t. He imploded – with the help of the media, thousands of orange-hatted asshats like myself, his own inability to shush at key moments, his crappy and misguided attack ads, and Kerry’s great ground campaign in Iowa, he came apart and Kerry got the nomination in Iowa (let’s be realistic -it was over that day).
Reality: Dean had 750,000 people willing to sign up on his website before he dropped out – and those are just the ones willing to sign up. Many, many of those people have stuck with him and many of those people are in red states. Some are obnoxious. Some are stupid. Some are crazy. Some are brilliant. Try and define Deaniacs, and you’ll succeed in looking like a fool as you’re attacked by all the folks who don’t fit that description.
Reality: Dean could have beaten Bush. There isn’t one person on this website – not one – who can say with any certainty whether he would have or not. Not liking Dean is not a compelling argument that the electorate at large wouldn’t vote for him (just as loving Dean as I do isn’t an argument that they WOULD). But people responded to him, and they still do. That means something’s going on, and if you don’t get it, you need to look closer. When he dropped out, I had become convinced that he never had a chance against Bush. As time goes on, I’ve become more convinced that he might well have cleaned Bush’s clock. As said above, it doesn’t demean John Kerry or anyone else to just accept that Dean could have pulled it off.
Dean dropped out in mid-February. On March 18, he announced Democracy for America, from which he raised and spent millions on behalf of John Kerry and other Democrats at all levels – right down to library boards in Florida. He has led, he out-organized the other candidates to become DNC chair with popular support, and has been out there keeping his promises since. This man is not your enemy – he’s on your side.
And Deaniacs: He’s not perfect. Lots of people don’t like his style or his politics. That’s okay.
John Kerry has the support of millions of Democrats
Dean (and other) supporters who reflexively attack Kerry for being a douchebag must learn that there are millions of our fellow Democrats who were not only just fine with John Kerry, but that many of these folks are just as passionate about him as we are about Dean. It doesn’t demean you, Howard Dean, liberalism, centrism, or anyone or anything else to admit that he has the support of millions of Democrats. Stop with the knee-jerk “I’ve got to counter anything good said about John Kerry” bullshit. It’s tired and old. I’m sure Kerry..um…Kerryacs would like to work on issues of substance and stop having to defend their guy every single goddamn day from their own fellow Democrats.
(note: I admit to believing John Kerry is a douchebag, my recent opportunity to meet him only making that belief more firm. Doesn’t mean I want to chase him around beating him up – just that we all get our own opinions)
Reality: Kerry won Iowa by out-organizing everyone else and running a super-great campaign there. We all knew the ABB crowd would fall to whoever won that day, so let’s stop pretending that anyone is an asshat for suddenly swooning for the lanky guy from Boston. It hurt, but he won.
Reality: Kerry had millions sign up on his website in the end. Many, many of those people have stuck with him and many of those people are in red states. Some are obnoxious. Some are stupid. Some are crazy. Some are brilliant. Try and define Kerryacs (btw, what the hell do you call yourselves? Anything fun?), and you’ll succeed in looking like a fool as you’re attacked by all the folks who don’t fit that description.
Reality: Kerry should have beaten Bush. (May have, or did, some will say. That argument isn’t germaine to this diary) There isn’t one person on this website – not one – who can say with any certainty whether Dean was stronger than Kerry or not. Not liking Kerry is not a compelling argument that the electorate at large didn’t like him (just as loving Kerry isn’t an argument that they did). But people responded to him, and they still do, if not in the same way as with Dean. That means something’s going on, and if you don’t get it, you need to look closer. As said above, it doesn’t demean Howard Dean or anyone else to just accept that Kerry did his best to pull it off. And it’s reasonable to disagree with how he ran his campaign.
Kerry has introduced legislation to provide health insurance to children – the Kids First bill is a great piece of legislation. He was late, but he DID stand up and talk about Ohio. I wish he’d done it earlier, too, but he did it. Many of his positions in the campaign were right on the money – some were not, but the bad doesn’t erase the good. And his recent statements about SSM may have been a bit outside his lane (I’m in the STFU camp), but he does have a right to his opinion, and we have the right to disagree. And his opinion hasn’t been any big secret, so I’m not sure what we’re so shocked about. I think he’s wrong on the substance, so let’s talk about the issue instead of rehashing old shit and having a “my Democrat is better than your Democrat” pissing match. Taken on the whole, this man is not our enemy – he’s on our side.
And Kerrycrats or whatever you call yourselves: He’s not perfect. Lots of people don’t like his style or his politics. That’s okay.
Denny K is liked by upwards of three dozen Democrats
Okay, that was a dig – just kidding! Seriously, there are plenty of people who just love Dennis the way Deaniacs love Dean, and Kerrywags love Kerry. Kuchinch folks, you’re in the minority – more people side with Dean and Kerry than side with your guy. Everybody else, there are more people that side with Dennis than we like to admit. It doesn’t demean you, Dean, Kerry, liberalism, centrism, or anyone or anything else to admit that he has the support of millions of people (let’s face it, a lot of Denny’s support is coming from outside the party).
Denny’s got as much to say as anyone, and is certainly a leader in the liberal world. I think a discussion of the manner of his recent attack on Dean is reasonable, and a discussion of the merits of the Iraq policy is always reasonable, but the name-calling (listen up, you `elf’ folks) is irresponsible and unhelpful. Let’s get some realistic perspective on this stuff, for God’s sake. It isn’t like he maced the pope, or something – he went after a guy he doesn’t like very much, so as with Kerry.
And Kucinichites: He’s not perfect. Lots of people don’t like his style or his politics. That’s okay.
So let’s move on. Let’s try to debate the issues of the day, not the issues of 10 months ago – we will like different politicians, but sitting around here rehashing the primary just wastes our time. And frankly, it makes for boring reading.
Ray, I’m immensely relieved you wrote this. I’ve almost quit the DFW (was Dean For Washington state, now it’s Democracy for Washington state).
Among other things, I was very upset by the attacks on Maria Cantwell, just as we’re having to gear up for her 2006 race, which promises to be very difficult. I was also dismayed by the attacks on Dean for being open to anti-choice Democrats because, as long as they’re nto anti-choice, I feel they have a right to their opinion .. which shouldn’t be encouraged, of course (!) … but we shouldn’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Right after the election, I was so angry I swore I’d never vote for another Democrat who didn’t meet my standards. I.e., no more John Kerry candidates, please. But, I’ve calmed down. And seeing and writing about the events of the day, every day, I see how much we just have to get over certain differences and bond together.
I meant, quit the mailing list for DFW, not the group itself. Too many of the posts are about bashing Democrats like Cantwell and Gregoire, our governor.
and I love it. Haven’t seen anything like what you’re talking about. The past few months we’ve been meeting candidates for various city offices (NYC’s mayoral/city officer election is this November), and I’ve been impressed by how open-minded and “outreaching.” for lack of a better word, people have been even with very unDeaniac contendors. Of course, it’s also quite satisfying that unDeaniac types are pleading for our support!
But I do realize that there are quite a few fanatically unreasonable Deaniacs out there. Sorry you have to read their posts. On the plus side, I also think a lot of neophytes are busy getting educated into the ins and outs of real-life politics through DFA, and that can only be a good thing for the future.
It’s not bashing Kerry to draw attention to the fact that he’s been almost everywhere except Massachusetts lately. And many of his former fans are noticing this.
His recent musings in Louisiana on gay civil unions are causing some resentment; especially since gay marriage has been legal here.
Has he not learned anything? I’m not trying to raise any hackles here. It’s just that he seems mighty like a campaigner now. Ted Kennedy (an acquired taste at the best of times) and Barney Frank have no trouble remembering whom they represent.
I should also mention – to be fair and balanced – that our handsome republican governor has been testing the presidential waters from practically the very day he was sworn into office. He too spends a lot of time getting to know our friends in the South.
All politics is local (Tip O’Neil)?
Hi jane,
My point in the post isn’t that we should stop bashing Kerry (or whoever has done wrong today), but more that we need to stop eating our own. We should by all means call out bad decisions, votes, or whatever – but we spend so much time playing single-issue ball and beating on each other in this “My Dem is better than your Dem” game, we’re just wasting our time and energy.
I didn’t really miss your point: you were very clear and articulate. I just couldn’t pass up a small opportunity to say what I said.
Thank you for your diary and for responding!
Susan, I’ve fought and fought to get people to lay off Cantwell – if Mark Wilson actually gains any ground against her, it’ll hurt the Democrats for years. It’s sad but it’s true, and right now Maria is a hell of a lot better than the alternative.
Gregoire has turned out to be better than we’d hoped – I haven’t really noticed anyone bashing her lately, but it wouldn’t surprise me.
And I’m with you on the anti-choice thing…that got out of hand, and I’m still not sure how we’re going to resolve the hurt feelings from that conversation. Keep fighting the good fight, my friend.
That Wilson sent an e-mail to me and my daughter. We can’t figure out how he got our e-mail addresses. I asked Shue but he said he hadn’t given Wilson any addresses.
I hope people come to their sense. Cantwell has been outstanding in many, many ways! Her floor speech on Gonzales’ connection to Enron, her Anwar amendment with Kerry, and on and on.
P.S. I’m so glad you’re hangin’ here! you’re great people.
I seem to have missed that.
I front-paged it, Matt:
“Tom Hayden to Dean: Stop Tacit Support for Iraq War“
And I missed Kos’s remarks about Kerry .. must go see. Or can one of you tell me?
I’m really torn here. On one side, I agree with almost every word Hayden wrote — although I think he should have come down even harder on our support and advocacy of torture — in my mind, that’s the most important issue of our lifetimes. On the other side, I think Dean is sincere in his belief that we have a responsbility to fix what we’ve needlessly broken. And this sort of “all-American” idealism, as sadly misguided as it is in this case, is one of Dean’s most attractive qualities.
And Dean isn’t the only one who’s having a hard time seeing the reality of what we’ve become as a nation. Look at that “Support our troops” thread currently running on dKos. Lots of people on the Left still don’t see how malignant the U.S. is to the rest of humanity.
Couldn’t find what thread you’re referring to, but I’m all for supporting the troops – what makes me sad is that I shouldn’t have to feel conflicted about doing so. They exist to protect you and I from threats; they volunteered to put themselves in mortal danger so you and I can sit around and gab on blogs. That’s deserving of an enormous amount of respect. And overwhelmingly, they’re doing a good job in a really crappy situation in Iraq. We really don’t hear about the guys that just go about their job in a respectful way over there – we hear about the guys that organize a clothing drive for a school or we hear about the folks that torture prisoners at Abu Ghraib. But both of those are exceptions.
But their mission is among the worst in this nation’s history. I feel guilty for supporting the troops, and I shouldn’t have to feel that way. George Bush has made it embarrassing to be supportive of young men and women who are willing to sacrifice their life for me.
We can support the troops and recognize the pain they inflict at the same time – but we shouldn’t have to face such cognitive dissonance. And they shouldn’t have to risk their lives for a foolish quest.
</soapbox>
One thing Hayden said:
“There is growing frustration at the grass roots towards the party leadership’s silent collaboration with the Bush Administration’s policies. Personally, I cannot remember a time in thirty years when I have been more despairing over the party’s moral default. …
“The party’s alliance with the progressive left, so carefully repaired after the catastrophic split of 2000, is again beginning to unravel over Iraq. …”
There’s more at the above link. It’s a very good letter, agree with it or not.
I agree with most of what you wrote, and I am glad you wrote it. My biggest problem with Kerry is that he assembled that huge reservois of attorneys and collected all that money ($55 million I believe) in order to fulfill his vow that “this time all the votes would be counted.” Whether or not you agree with the evidence of stolen votes compiled by US Count Votes, there is no doubt that Kerry did not keep his promise, and there is evidence that lots of votes were not counted or were counted incorrectly.
Like it or not, Kerry has to accept this as part of his legacy. If he didn’t deploy the lawyers and spend the funds in 2004 we have no reason to believe that he will do any different in 2008 if he gets the nomination. As one who believes that our electoral process has been hijacked by the Republicans and their allies (Diebold, ES&S, Triad, Sequoia, et al) I can never again support John Kerry or any other Democratic candidate who is not truly commited to making sure that all the votes are properly counted. It is not personal. i just feel that the Democratic process is too sacred to entrust to a candidate who won’t acknowledge this electoral crisis.
I hear you! With me it is a little personal. To support Kerry was to place a lot of trust in him and what he promised. I still feel betrayed and think he is ill-advised to make plans for another run.
So this is what has Kos angry with Kerry, I gather:
I can’t give you the link because there are over 800 comments and I can’t open a thread that large:
Kerry takes on … the gays
by kos
Mon May 9th, 2005 at 12:05:43 PDT
Sen. John “no really, I’m an outsider” Kerry is taking a strong, courageous stance against equality.
BATON ROUGE, La. — US Senator John F. Kerry said yesterday that he believes it’s a mistake for the Massachusetts Democratic Party to include a plank in its official platform in support of same-sex marriage, saying that such a statement does not conform with the broad views of party members.
Kerry, who opposes same-sex marriage but supports civil unions, said in an interview with the Globe that he would prefer that the party not mention gay marriage in its platform, because Democrats continue to disagree on how to handle the issue.
”I’m opposed to it being in a platform. I think it’s a mistake,” Kerry said shortly after hosting a forum on his universal children’s healthcare bill in Baton Rouge. ”I think it’s the wrong thing, and I’m not sure it reflects the broad view of the Democratic Party in our state.”
Before the election I called Kerry a “spineless ass” for his opposition (where none was warranted) of gay marriage in Massachusetts. Opposition that was clearly politically motivated given his past support on the issue. Well, my assessment remains operative.
I am going to support our nominee.
Period.
I am going to respect our nominee.
Period.
I am going to work for our nominee.
Period.
I may well disagree with some stances taken by him or her prior to or even after the nomination, but I know damn well that whoever emerges from our process will be far superior to what, er who, the Right produces. I am sure I will have strong opinions about the person I want to emerge as our standard bearer, in fact I already have some, and I will work hard to support the person I believe to be most qualified. But I will do my very best to respect every one else along the way.
I agree that the sniping should stop. I’m all for it. But I also believe that their are moles in our midst. What I mean is, certain individuals couldn’t be doing more damage to the party if they were taking their marching orders directly from Karl Rove. You listening, Joe?
Though I never thought I would say this, we need to clean house. We need to get rid of those members who will not toe the line for the party’s agenda. This is how a minority party operates. I would rather have unanimity, and thereby the united front in a smaller caucus, rather than the non-existent loyalty of these fair-weather dems in a fragmented but somewhat larger plurality.
Cut them all loose. Tell them to go back to working for the GOP.
I, for one, would rather stand alone and be right, then stand among these clowns.
We have stealth Christians taking over our school boards, why not stealth Republicans taking over the Dems? Come on, I know I’d do it to the Rethugs if I had the slightest chance of succeeding.
Flame away.
We call ourselves “Democrats.”
I worked for Kerry in the primaries and in the national election – as much as I could. I think he is an outstanding Senator. I thought, and think, he would be an outstanding President.
I didn’t much like Dean in the primaries. I thought his attacks at Gephardt were way over the top. I don’t much like his style, either. And you know what? I don’t care. Gov. Dean is the leader of my party and I fully support him and wish him well.
For those who insist on recapitulating the primaries I would like to offer some advice from my 30 years of political experience:
I am a big Dean fan, but I have a problem with the notion that is implicit in your post. Namely, you don’t like him, but you support him because he heads the DNC. That is a herd mentality that is really scary. If you have problems with Dean, express them. That is what makes the Democratic party stronger. Dissent is good.
There is absolutely no chance in this world that I will not express my disagreement with someone merely because she or he holds an offical position in the Democratic Party. (Laughing)
But I submit “Support” does not equal “Always agree with”.
Namely, that you haven’t told me how to do that cool yellow box.
Else, we’re on the same page (‘cept flipped – I love Dean and don’t like Kerry). Dean’s attacks against Gephardt were over the top, but were also in response to a series of over the top attacks on him in the ol’ gang-up and conquer style. He and Geppy are friends, so it’s a shame he made the decision to go that route, but it backfired and now here we all are.
Moving on, right? Hooah!
In the spirit of Party Unity …
See this diary by superscalar and All Will Become Clear!
MONTPELIER, Vt. If Democrats give Bernie Sanders a clear shot at the U-S Senate next year, Progressives should return the favor by staying out of other races. That’s the view of former Governor Howard Dean. Dean is now chairman of the Democratic National Committee. Dean says the election of the independent Sanders to the U-S Senate would be good for Democrats nationally, because Sanders works well with Democrats in Washington. He says he understands that some Vermont Democrats would like to run for the seat being opened by the retirement of Senator James Jeffords. Dean says if Democrats agree not to run for the Senate, Progressives should agree not to run for other statewide offices like the U-S House and lieutenant governor.”-from the AP story via Channel 3, Burlington (VT).
from http://www.seattlefordean.com and http://www.howieinseattlefordean.com
is for Democrats to stop being such idiots. We spend so much more time attacking eachother and calling eachother traitors/DINOs/idiots (who me?) than we do actually fighting for our democracy. You can see it in the comments and recommendations in diaries. Most circular firing squad diaries gets more of both than most action-based, practical fighting diaries. That’s why we lose. We lose not because of Dean, Kerry, Clinton or any other politician. We lose because WE are not doing what it takes to win. We always look to others for our victory, forgetting that it is our efforts and votes that put people into office.
I almost left DailyKos last week because of the renewed circular firing squad. But I didn’t and shouldn’t. I just wish people would stop blaming Democrats when it’s the Repubs who are stealing elections, destroying the Constitution and generally screwing up our country.