I never had a problem with the pie ad. I think the reason is that I’ve become so used to living in a society that equates women with their bodies that I literally didn’t see it.
I also had the experience of posting on CultureKitchen about issues of choice and having an anti-choice company place banner ads with my diary. Liza Sabater figured out very quickly that the more people who clicked through to the site, the more CultureKitchen made, which would allow her to continue to pay for the space that allowed she and I to post our views on the very issue of abortion, among others. So, sometimes, you wind up making money off people in this world who are doing their damndest to defeat you. I kinda liked that.
But, the response from Kos to the pie ad has caused me to opt out of the DailyKos community. As someone who writes primarily about the connection between the personal and the political, I have no choice but to be a feminist. I care about gender issues, sexuality issues, surveillance issues, sex education issues, marriage issues, etc., etc., etc. And what bothers me more than anything about the tone of the debate is that CERTAIN (not all) heterosexual males don’t seem to get that what they deem women’s issues or gay issues are one step away from being their issues. Anyone rememeber Neimoller’s famous quotation?
I have also been called a whore for writing about sexual issues as explicitly as I do, so I can hardly be considered a sexless harridan. I love certain men. I want to live in a world where no one has to contest their rights as human beings because of gender or sexuality.
I know that some people don’t understand why some of us are so fucking angry at Kos right now that we can’t see straight.
It’s not about the fucking ad. It’s about the fact that those of us who think that there will be no politics to fight about if we don’t protect the right to privacy have been told repeatedly that our issues don’t matter. That we should be patient, get in line, wait our turn.
HOW MANY MORE YEARS ARE WE SUPPOSED TO WAIT?
Update [2005-6-7 6:19:0 by lorraine]: I am dead chuffed to see the responses to this diary, and even more thrilled by the amazing women (and men) who have come over from DailyKos to say “hi.” This could be the start (or continuation) of a wonderful, wonderful thing.
Update [2005-6-7 12:58:36 by lorraine]:One of the bright bulbs over at Kos referred to women upset with Markos as “menstruating she devils.” So, I’ve run with it.
Teehee. Laughing through my rage…
Who says that feminists don’t have a sense of humour?
[Final UPDATE] I can’t get into the comments section of this diary. I’ve started another gender diary if people want to move the discussion to a less-cluttered thread–the discussion has been fantastic!
I’m not going back to Kos, either. I was never a diarist, but I commented frequently. It’s funny. Yesterday I had the highest rated comment of the day and tonight I’m gone. I stayed for a long time because of certain diarists, like you, but they kept dropping away. It turns out I could have been reading them here. I also stayed because of certain gentle witty souls and because it could make me laugh and keep me informed and no other blog I had found up to that point did those things for me. But the level of aggressiveness and sheer rudeness was hard to stomach and now I realize I don’t have to absorb that anymore in order to get those other things I want: information, debate, wit, etc. This place seems like a healthier, happier version of Kos. I’m also loving the brand new womenkossacks blog, even if it only lasts a day. It’s wonderful to know I can transfer my dKos addiction to these other places. And I’m so glad you’re here, too!!
Kansas,
So cool to have you here. Yeah!
Thank you for speaking my mind much more eloquently than I could have.
I’m delighted to “speak your mind,” Zander, since it’s such a very fine one!
Kansas I loved your comment at Women Kossack’s blog so much I copied it and added it to my personal blog
Fish Wars on Cars
I had printed by own rant calling Markos a sexist pig, but your comments were so much better than mine and expressed my thoughts elegantly.
Thank you. I’m glad to find your comments here too.
Thanks so much. Now I can’t wait to visit a blog called Fish Wars on Cars. It makes me smile just to type it.
I am not a vetran of the pie wars, didn’t even see most of the diaries, left alone the comments (crashed my browser every time)…but the front page diary was too much for me, I have been feeling increasingly uncomfortable over there for some time now, not , for any one thing I could even artciulate, but just like I felt like I was wasting my time, was not able to be myself and that I needed to be elsewhere….
Here I am and I’m glad that so many of the people I thought I would really miss, are here too! Makes the transition just that much smoother!
As to gender, I cannot think of one single “issue” that I have, even those that are characterized as “women’s issues” that don’t also affect/concern men. That so many people (men and women alike) still don’t get it just gobsmacks me every time 9and this is not the first time I have been smacked upside the head with that realization, I just have to remember not to forget it this time!!)
I’m not a one-issue person, either. Gender is at the heart of so many issues, that in way, I don’t see it as a single issue so much as a meta-issue that eventually has an impact on everything. It’s like race. Somehow, certain men think that gender issues only affect women, just like certain white people think that race issues don’t have an affect on them.
But, for example, what role is gender playing in the Iraq war?
Welcome to this community. Booman has made me feel oh so welcome here, and I’ve only been here a few months myself.
The “single issue” accusation is another form of dismissal that’s been bothering me of late.
I hear a lot of “we need a big tent” arguments, stated as a reason for casting aside one’s core principles. The premise is that it’s supposed to be good strategy to give up your principles in order to gain short-term victories, with the implication that anyone unwilling to give up their principles is incapable of thinking strategically. If you refuse to give up on a core principle, you’re accused of being “single-issue.”
I have a huge issue with that kind of thinking. It’s endemic to corporate boardrooms these days – go for the short term profit, regardless of the cost.
Short term thinking – thinking that ignores long-term goals – is always tactical, not strategic, and it’s poor tactics at that.
Strategy is determining your long term goals, looking at the difference between your current state and those goals, then figuring out the steps – the tactics – that will bring you closer to the goals. To succeed in the long term, you must avoid those tactics that do not serve the goals. Yes, you may have a much harder slog toward your goals by remaining true to your principles, but at least you know you’re moving toward the goal, not away from it. You need a rudder to successfully cross an ocean.
Similarly, we do need a big tent, but it’s not of any use if it has no poles. All community members should be able to stand up strong and proud within the tent, not be hidden, or smothered beneath the heavy folds in an unsupported corner.
What else bothers me … how does women’s issues becomes “single issue?”
It’s about rights to privacy in the abortion debate; investing in quality education, child care and health care; it’s about family leave from work, eldercare, etc.
This list is a “single issue” list? Good God, everything lumped under “women’s issues” is what makes life either a horrible, primitive scramble for individual survival or a responsible, healthy civic society.
Bleh. “Single-issue,” my ass.
you had me at *”gobsmacks me.”
Hey Shirl!
Another one of those fabulous English expressions–my parents are frequently gob-smacked.
all credit due to Molly Ivins — never heard that phrase before I read her, but there are just some times that nothing else will do!!
😉
She is one of the very very few things that makes me proud to be a Texan (even if an imported one, and perhaps, a temporary one).
LOL
If Molly Ivans were. . .
well let’s just say I wouldn’t mind a sittin on her doorstep for a spell. Love that woman!
Hi, Shirl–
Just joined.
Is this where all the dKosWomen have gone?
Looking for a sandbox were nobody is allowed to kick sand….
Glad to see you made your way here! I was hoping you would join the “woman throng” at the Frog Pond here.
We don’t kick sand. A lot more civil and willing to listen to what others have to say regardless of how strongly we may disagre.
How is your project coming?
I look forward to seeing you post here, you have a lot of interesting and valuable views to share. Drop by the Big Welcome party and share a bit of yourself with the rest of the influx of newbies and pie refugees.
The link is right here
Not just the women. Some men are tired of the dick-measuring over there, too. I remember making a comment about Gannon/Guckert and assiduously trying to avoid anything that could have been given a sexual spin, but, nope, someone managed to make a snarky comment about Gannon/Guckert’s gayness, as if that’s the thing. Pretty fucking puerile.
Fuck all, I know there’s plenty to complain about in issues that have probably been run to the ground in conversations I didn’t want to get anywhere near, but what just burned me up was the notion that there are more important things than respecting women, as if paying this stuff any heed is somehow getting in the way of paying attention to the overt life-or-death issues.
For this, I just had to think of the philosopher Mary Midgley, who wrote that there are powers of decency “which increase with pouring.”
“Trying to avoid” It seems like I was always trying to avoid saying things in a way which would provoke nasty comments. I felt some of those people were playing unending games of “gotcha.” My strong, strong hunch is that the posters here are far more respectful.
They were. That is the way most American men expect to behave. There are ways to stop it.
For example, my husband gets grief when he bombs a forecast. Every so often someone accuses him of having aced Lying 101 in college. He simply smarts off back with: “Oh, no. I took the graduate level course: Lying 641!”
He doesn’t play the games himself–but he does know the moves to stop them. I’ve got him watching himself now, to report back on when and how he does it.
All part of the Verbal Self-Defense for Dems project which will be migrating here in the near future.
I agree that stereotypically it’s a male thing. The competitiveness never ends. I see it with the kids I teach. But I so want to that believe people have the capacity to rise above those “constructs”- gender specific characteristics – and that decent HUMAN traits identified and valued. I hope that made sense.
I once heard Justice William Brennan give a speech on the 200th anniversery of the ratification of the U.S. Constitution. The focus of his speech was that respect for the dignity of other human beings was the thread that runs through all the civil rights set forth in the Bill of Rights and, indeed, is both the basis for and aim of democracy itself. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are, after all, critical components of human dignity.
It’s always a shock when you realize that people you thought you had so much in common with differ on a fundamental matter of principle.
You don’t have to love everyone you sleep with, but you at least have to be attracted to them.
Lorraine, I always liked your posts on Daily Kos.
Below is a response I wrote today after Markos’ front-page post; apologies to those who’ve seen it already.
On feminism and the ‘important shit’
When I was in my early 20s, I worked for a progressive press agency in Guatemala. I admired the Guatemalan journalists (male and female) who wrote insightful, daring critiques during some of the worst years of military rule.
A few of these male journalists used to pin up photos of naked women on the wall near where we held our weekly meetings. I didn’t take it too seriously at the time–once I even bought a copy of Playgirl and put up some pictures of naked men alongside the other photos as a joke. I thought, hey, this is nothing compared to the important shit of combating military impunity. I didn’t want to appear too ‘feminist.’
Well, it’s 20 years later, and I’ve learned a few things ( in life as well as in graduate school, although not in ‘women studies’ seminars per se…). I’ve learned that:
1. It’s easy to espouse progressive politics until your own interests are challenged.
2. Discrimination and actions that demean other people are important shit.
3. Feminism is not about hating men, hating sexual images, being extreme or sanctimonious, or any of the other cliches. It’s about understanding how gender roles and identities are socially produced and how this production of gender is related to the perpetration of other sorts of power relations.
In response to Markos’ juvenile post this morning, I can only say that maybe when he, too, has matured in another couple of decades, he (and others who echo his immaturity) will recognize that this IS the important shit.
Brava!!
Nice to see you here.
I just got embroiled in a horrid little cat fight over the fucking pie ad.
Apparently, because I took issue with “my pussy is so wet right now” as a diary title ABOUT A DRIPPING WET VAGINA, I am now a “sister-punisher.”
GO figure. And here I thought I was an individual, a feminist and a vehement DEFENDER of women’s rights.
ANyway… you wouldn’t know it, but I’m technically a front page poster here. I might just start coming to Booman first for a while.
We’ll see how it all plays out. I have committed friendships with Kossacks, and I am very good at tuning out Kos, because, frankly, I’m more about the Diaries page than the front page over there. But things are really shitty over there right now. I need to cool down.
I’m SO glad you came over here. Yours have been among my top favourites in DiaryLand.
lorraine, moiv, catnip, Jerome a Paris, Madman in the Marketplace, Susanhu, and MSOC – who knew? It makes me wonder, based on my conflict-avoiding personality, what I was doing over there in the first place.
Hey Maryscott!
I have to tell you, I laughed and laughed over the pussy diary. I’m sorry you got into a cat fight–I just thought that we had hit the nadir with that diary and it was kinda funny to me to watch the whole thing–like a trainwreck.
But I’m happy to be here, happy to see you here, and psyched.
I am still laughing. the title has been edited by Kos, because as he explains “Some lines were crossed”.
Since when does he have lines when it comes to women and objectifying them. Okay, so video sexual objectification for the sake of capitalistic pursuits is fine but written sexual objectification is crossing lines? Give me a break!! No, give me a fucking break!!
I got caught up in the moment and just went berserk.
I can’t seem to just walk away when I’m mad — no, I HAVE to say what I have to say — even though it NEVER comes out right when I’m furious, and even I get put off by the number of profane utterances coming through my comments…
This is just what I was talking about in the other diary (BooMan’s). My friends know how to apologize. I admit, I was shell shocked by your, um, vehemence, in that diary. Personally, I thought Anna in Phili (who has been known to be a staunch sexual equality spokesperson) was spot on and that it was very funny. I also appreciated your apology and understood where you were coming from. FWIW, I love your comments generally and usually agree 100% of the time with you.
But really, for Kos to say that something “crosses the line” after his dunderheaded statement this weekend, is too much.
I read more comments today by men who told us that they got all hot and bothered by the offensive ads, that seeing what was clearly a humurous female take on it, was really funny.
In other words, you can be hate-filled, but talk about sex in blatant terms (terms that obviously the guys were already thinking in), and you cross the proverbial line. You can have pornographic ads with tight buns and big tits, but you can’t use pornographic language to make fun of them. Sigh.
But, on the positive side, this whole thing has really given me food for thought. I think quite a few guys really did wake up and realize that women’s issues are important and women should not be dismissed as feminazi’s so readily.
There’s kind of a sack cloth and ashes thing happening now.
Reminds me of Lysistrata…
When I was little my very Victorian Grandmother was always trying to convince my brother not to swear – explaining that people would view him negatively, etc, etc. Nothing worked. Then one day she just started talking like he did – swearing every other word. It was so upsetting to him that he started to cry (you had to know her to appreciate how funny it sounded). Anyway, the wet pussy incident so reminded me of that moment.
I’m still laughing.
Like you, Maryscott, I avoided most of the front page stuff, and concentrated on digging through diaries for things that interested me…and tossing out some diaries of my own. I’ve generally managed to avoid most of the pie-tossing type stuff.
It seems that the people I like reading and chatting with are migrating over here…I dunno if I’ll give up on Kos altogether–there are a number of people I enjoy chatting with that I’d miss–but seeing how this has all played out, I don’t feel good as a feminist keeping that as a primary source for online political (cultural, theoretical…) conversations.
It is nice to “see so many friendly faces” over here though.
that was one of the more bizarre exchanges i’ve ever seen at Kos. glad it’s over.
i kinda lost my cool as well yesterday in a thread about the demise of the west side stadium. i’ve never told a kossack point blank to fuck off until then. that wasn’t very fun.
decided to hang around, say good bye to the Cheers & Jeers group, and help those that were still fighting the good fight. Just left…geez I need a shower….
Told someone there was no humor for some of us in the pie diaries, they told me to fuck off, I told them not a chance….
And after all this time I got accused of “ratings abuse” for tossing a one when someone told me to fuck off. They are most certainly sending us off with a vengeance – been there done that…so glad we have Booman.
You were fully intending to stick around and fight the good fight, weren’t you? You were going to do it in a respectful and friendly way and you still got shown the back of their hand.
Well, it’s not like a lot of them will miss us, not really. With us gone, they can more fully relax and let loose, I guess.
A lot of us are probably old enough to be the mothers or grandmothers/fathers or grandfathers of some of the little howler monkeys (as a poster on womenkossacks called them, lol). It’s hard to imagine any of them would be able to look you in the face, SallyCat and still tell you to fuck off.
I’m a 6’2″, 200 lbs, 42-year-old Brit, combat veteran of Gulf War I–and most of the One-Line Snark Brigade, aka the Don’t Let the Door Hit You On the Arse On the Way Out mob, assume that I MUST be a woman.
I mean, why would a MAN defend the rights and sensitivities of women?
Well, for the same reason I defend the rights of people who have a different religion, skin colour, nationality, language from me–because they’re human beings.
But I find it humorous, as well as most interesting, that most of Kos’ One-Line Snark Brigade assume I’m female.
I did tell one fellow who was being very snide and condescending to me that I AM a man, as well as a combat vet, etc (it’s all in my Kos bio, easily obtainable)–and his entire demeanour towards me changed. Suddenly he was respectful and apologised for his earlier rude remarks.
I found the fact that he treated me deferentially ONCE HE DISCOVERED I WAS MALE most interesting, as well.
I met at the Kos picnic on Sunday?
same one…
It’s good to see you here – more sisters than we knew in this fight!
Great to see you too!!!
Shall we start frog pond group?
I’ll have some energy after a weekend out of town and get started on that next week…since we have Yahoo already we can use that venue…
And green really is more my color than orange!
I would LOVE that but unfortunately I am moving to Portland, OR on Sunday!
I will have to find some nice Booman folks up in the Northwest after I get settled in..
I’m sure you can find some other froggies hopping around these parts who’d like to meet-up.
Anyhow, it was great to meet you in person, at least once!
Sally,
I know where you’re coming from. I was derided for my mere three months of recovery and had my year of contributions on dKos dwindled down to a joke diary where I posted pictures of my ass.
Oh, well. At this point I say fuck ’em. It has become evident with this thread that the majority of my friends at dKos have already made the move here and I suspect that many more will do the same…
You fought a good fight with your diary today…I was so proud of you for trying to put a calm and reasonable discussion out there.
You’re a great guy and your wife and girls are lucky to have you! Email here is same – any time you want.
Hugs friend and welcome to the frog pond…
Amen to that! I so wanted to post on it. It was one of the final straws for me. I loved what you said, but again, some of the responses were simply outrageous. After reading your diary, I thought, with people like this, maybe I’ll stick around. By the time I had read the comments, I was thinking who needs these asshats.
So kudos HHG! It was a valiant attempt and many people appreciated it.
and I have always enjoyed your diaries. I think when I read the last of the comments on your last diary over there today that was when I knew that THEY HAD DRANK SOME KOOL AID. What the Hell? Have they just gone and lost it or what?
HHG,
I thought your diary today was great, and I saw that comment about your three months of sobriety. Take it from someone who’s been through it. Those first months are absolutely the hardest. I really admire and respect the way you are working on your sobriety. It doesn’t matter how many years you have, all it takes is one drink. It really is one day at a time. Just keep putting one foot in front of the other.
Thanks again for your diary today. And the one with your ass was funny!
Ann
I really liked your diary at KOS, how you doing now? Hope okay. Some of the comments that I have seen over there concerning the whole ad thing are really a big disappointment to me (jaw droppers, has the site been invaded by trolls or have trolls taken over some of these posters ids?). I hope your skin is thicker than mine, people can be such utter shits sometimes…
Despite my misleading nomer, I am female. I never clicked the sexually suggestive ads. I was dismayed to see them there. It isn’t the kind of thing I thought I’d see on kos. I’m flabbergasted about some of the attitudes and comments that I have seen posted in the last 24 hours. I seriously doubt you would see an ad like that on the NYT one line edition, WaPO…and there is a good reason for that, they don’t want to alienate their subscribers. I guess Kos is so big a few 100 or so don’t really matter, I used to feel like I was part of a community, even though I mostly lurk, I don’t feel that anymore.
I like it a lot here. I love to read and learn things and see what other people are thinking, more important to me than blathering on. I am still spending time numerous times a day pondering about a diary I read a few days ago about Ghost Dances.
I really like it here seems much more mellow. It looks like a lot of people whose stuff I like to read are migrating over here and it will be good to lurk here.
One day at a time HHG…
It’s a beautiful piece of writing. I read a portion of the commentary, and like others here was so sickened I had to stop. It’s the kind of behavior that makes you wonder if some of these people have cognitive problems. How could they so completely miss the point of what you said so clearly and thoughtfully? I have had that experience too many times to count.
Thank you for your words and your honesty. Thank you for your sharing your experience, strength, and hope, in your diaries on the battle with addiction. I look forward to reading your posts in this more gracious venue.
They’ve really learned their lesson over there (sarcasm). Today they are idol-worshipping Dean, which may be fine, but their reason isn’t: “he has balls.”
They are most certainly sending us off with a vengeance
Yes, it’s quite remarkable to watch and occasionally participate in. I’ve taken to suggesting that Kos run ads for real porn, not this namby-pamby clothed ‘lesbianic’ stuff. And the women (whose ideas, insights, strategies, priorities and point of view are clearly a burden to the Democratic party and why they lose elections) should help out by putting web cams in their bedrooms and bathrooms. Consider the revenue.
Kos’s active encouragement of bigotry and sexism is finally paying off.
Seeing some of the responses to Kos’ post was the first time that I ever felt helpless on the site. I felt the way I feel when talking to Republicans, the whole, “Why can’t you just understand?” thing.
I was completely blown away and disgusted with a lot of the positive comments Kos was getting “Way to go, dude, you tell those bitches!” And the subsequent anti-women vibe in other diaries was altogether mind-boggling. I found myself thinking, “Am I the only one who thinks this isn’t the tiniest bit FUCKED UP?”
Anyhow, it’s neat to be here.
like you, I am far more committed to diaries than to front page, although depending on the poster (eg Page) I may take the time for some front page issues at kos.
I am 59. I remember that one thing that kept me from getting very sucked in to the “new left” stuff in the 60’s was precisely the kinds of intolerance that I far too often see among some at kos. I think rather than bashing those who express concerns we ought to listen and see where we might be unncessarily ahrsh or insensitive. As it happens, there is a passage in the Armstrong book that I did not quote in my diary, and as I am not at home I cannot do so right now. But I remember this much. She was discussing the upset of some Muslims, thoughtful people who were not pro-Khomeini nor fundamentalists in any way, who expressed hurt over the entire episode of Rushide and the Satanic Verses, most especially at the reaction of many Westerners who knew little about Islam who could not understand their reactions. As I remember it, Armstrong expressed a reclognition of a need to understand that pain or concern, and this is something I far too often see ignored in the political exchanges online — and n ot just a free republic and places of that ilk.
Some people get aggressive when they realize that theya re wrong, because they don’t know how to back down. Now please do not accuse me of being a sexist, but in the fights I have seen in high schools and middles schools it is far more often the young ladies, if for no other reasons than fighting has not been a normal part of their upbringing, and thus they don’t necessarily accept the idea of rules a la Marques of Queensbury. Then again, I find for many — male and female, but in the case far more often male — participants in online fora believe that the nature of the media frees them from any responsibility for what they say or how it strikes others. To believe that one’s words, written or spoken, are not something for which you have to accept responsibility is, in my opinion, an amoral position to take. In the Jewish tradition from which I stem, one of the worst offenses one can commit is lashon hara, literally “evil tongue.” In a Christian context one might consider the teaching that what makes a person unclean is not what goes into his mouth (food) but rather what comes out of his mouth (words). In saying this, I acknowledge my own tendency towards looseness in my , and far too great a williness to resort to satire, sarcasm and snark. Thus in raising this point I do not mean to cast aspersions that I do not thinkc ould not also be applied to me.
I hope we see lots of different places that people can go to explore, to share, to argue. One thing that has bothered me about our public discourse has alwasy been our seeming inability to disagree witghout becoming disagreeable. I remember talking about this repetaedly at the so-called “Neoliberal Conference” organized by Charlie Peters of Washington Monthly fame back in October 1983, although my concern goes back much further.
For myself, I will probably continue to corss post, and not just here and at kos, but at my own blog as well. Kos will remain the most important simply because of its visibility, and because I did make a commitment to help with yearlykos at least for 2006.
I understand the frustration some feel. I accept that the pain is real. As it happens, with the business of the end of the school year, I bascially missed the entire pie fight, reading about it only in the aftermath. I tend to ignore the ads so I never noticed the offending one.
I vaqlue the work Lorraine has done, and I especially value what you, MSO, have offered, even though I also note that some have chosen to be offended at your use of obscenity (it does not bother me personally). I do hope that you will continue your involvement, and I look forward especially to your participation in the nascent book club effort – I think several of your recommendations are outstanding.
Tomorrow is the last day for students, although very few will be there. I am already largely packed up for the summer, and I also have Thur and Fri to finish. The computer in my room is laready disconnected, so I will be largely offline during the workday through Friday. So if you or anyone else posts a response to this and I do not respond in a reasonable period, it is not that I don’t value what you have to say .. it is far mroe likely that I have simply not as yet seen it.
Pacem
That diary must not have been ANY fun for you but I gotta tell you it sure entertained some of the rest of us. Sorry ’bout that, (she said, grinning). I’m glad you survived and I’m pretty sure the other “cats” did, too.
I visited dK a couple of times this afternoon and found that the reasonable men, the ones who are honestly trying to talk seriously and look at different points of view, are having a hard time of it.
Hi, Maryscott. Just joined a few minutes ago. It’s good to see some familiar names… Viva los 7 de Encino!
he needs to mature — maybe he just needs to have a daughter.
There’s a national sports talk show host that I used to enjoy listening to, but eventually I got tired of him. Not only was he extremely America-centric (blasting “Euro Soccer Fan” and soccer in general), but I felt that his putting down of women basketball players was totally uncalled for. When he started calling players “nags”, and using horse names like “Secretariat” and “Man O’ War”, that was it. I wonder…if he had a daughter, would he have the same attitude?
As Lorraine says, the politics is personal — when you look at your daughter and see her future, that can put a few ideas in your head…
Well said. Thank you.
I missed the pie ad because I use an ad blocker (PithHelmet) that makes them invisible. However, coming late to this, it is obvious where I belong.
Lorraine am I just pleased as peach punch at a private picnic to see you here. . .though I know you have been posting here for quite awhile.
You know I am your biggest rah, rah, fanatical, adoring Fan anyway. So a belated but heartfelt Welcome!
You and I certainly read from the same pages in the book.
Shirl
I was reducing the time I spend on DailyKos before the whole gender issue exploded over the weekend. Too much infighting and sniping and plain unkind remarks for the past few weeks.
In cutting my time back to about an hour a day I found less strife there – but waited to wade into confrontational stuff.
Probably hiatus means leaving for me…which will be too bad since I have been there for what seems an eternity. One day there will be a switch…in fact it was probably this weekend. I came to Booman first and DailyKos 2nd. As that becomes routine, I will still post there…but this will be home.
Glad you are here…glad Booman Tribune is here for all of us.
Well, I’m really pleased you’re here. You are another one of my most respected. Glad you’re at home here.
Shirl
I’ve read many of your diaries here and dailykos…it is nice to be here.
A chance to read and think things through – and respect each other. I’ve been over reading the new blogspot….it’s been exhausting, having fought those battles 30 years ago.
Wow – I am floored by the names there and the amount of sheer woman power they represent!
Yes we are indeed a force to be reckoned with. It is an amazing power and I feel the rededication to things of importance to all of us without the constant ridicule will be a very creative and powerful effort.
Don’t ever piss of the Warriors. . .they are not afraid to stand and fight.
so glad you are here, SallyCat.
It’s good to be here lorraine…
Thank you for saying so many things that we’ve fought hard battles for over the years.
It is disheartening to see the attitudes at dailykos…another lesson learned…another front on which to fight the war that will allow us to be ourselves.
This place seems so grown up compared to dKos.
Neut
.
Dutch slang for late night short drink, a quickie. LOL
Take care on words usage in international community.
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
Learn something new every day….
I’ve been chatting with Neut on line for months…hmmm…interesting nick name.
It’s good to be here…will still do some mopping up in the follow-up diaries at DailyKos. Not going quietly into the night!
I think of Neut as someone to be savored–not as a quickie!!
I’d forgotten that.
But better than being called a Kopstoot.
Shit, how many women do you think left dkos today? I’d be really interested to find that out.
I left because it was damn disheartening to hear people you thought you knew being either totally callous and chauvinistic or completely clueless about the real issue. The pie ad? They really thought that was the issue all along?
My time at dkos gave me a voice and enough self confidence to know that today was the day to leave.
I’m excited about this place. It feels familiar and welcoming.
yep. Ultimately, it wasn’t about the pie. It was about being told that we didn’t matter. This is a great place to be. Welcome.
Well, it was kind of the last straw for me. Or the second to last, I guess. This morning’s anti-immigration posts are probably technically the last, because I went to bed thinking ‘Don’t know if I can be bothered with dKos any more’ and what I’ve read there this morning tends to confirm that opinion. In the interests of transparency, though, I’d have to say that most of the other straws concerned the racism and xenophobia that’s pretty endemic down the road — I’ve found considerably less of that here too.
I’m considering writing and posting one last seriously snarky diary there — not a GBCW though.
Sorry, meant to reply to Second Nature
You seriously conted that this morning’s posts were “anti-immigration”?
Wow.
I will have to reread.
Just read it again.
The original post was not anti-immigration…it was pretty neutral on the topic.
Some of the comments were particularly odious.
I answered them.
Well, here be one more…
I feel betrayed in a way by all the crap that is still! still! going on at DKos.
Looking for another place to hang out and glad to see so many familiar faces/names.
Mine there was TravnTexas
I was wabegg.
Wabegg! Good to see you!
Recordkeeper! – another survivor of the Pie War. I’m glad you’re here. I think that will be my sig around here for a little while now that I think about it. It will be interesting to see how many of us there are.
Pie War Refugee! I just realized that’s your signature line. That’s aweome!
zander,
I love your sig line! I’m another pie war refugee. After I read kos’ front page post, I decided to move on. I probably will go back occasionally to see what’s happening, but I’ll never feel comfortable there again. Frankly, Markos’ views were always far too conservative/conventional for me, but I went to read the side diaries. I’m so glad to see all the familiar names here!
wabegg is now zander, deepintheheartoftexas is bri something, thank God Damnit Janet and Recordkeeper are still themselves 😀
I’m still my unfortunately silly name. Considered using something else, but what the hell.
I left a few crumbs here a while back – perhaps I’ll follow the trail.
I know that screen name is a pain in the ass — I have to remember how to spell it every time I log in! LOL
at little shorter than deepintheheartoftx tho, but brinn, is fine!
yeah, i’d like to see him do another poll at the end of the week and see how much the numbers dropped. i imagine people will continue to lurk occasionally, but some people are probably realizing what i felt a while ago – as more of a radical – that Daily Kos has its good qualities (the sheer number of diaries about who knows what) but that it would never be a place for me to have anything more than an uneasy peace with.
one of the great examples for me was when Kos wrote about “open source capitalism” and the inherent greatness of being able to design your own shoe. as I said at the time “‘Democratization’ of consumption and exploitation are things you certainly should be cynical of. And let’s not forget that Nike is happy to let you customize your own shoes as long as you don’t put “Sweatshop Labor” or anything else they find objectionable on them… democracy? I think not.”
in short, there are far too many Dems on dKos for me, and not enough progressives.
Count me in. I’m so happy to see my favorite dKos diarists here–Lorraine at the top among them. I wish that your writing about gender had an even wider audience.
I’m a Cheers & Jeers Irregular over there, so the idea of leaving dKos completely seems difficult. But I’ve had it with Kos.
The phrase “jumped the shark” comes to mind.
Hey Snu, glad to see you. Dixie here.
Aha! Thanks for identifying yourself! Hey, where are you in NC? (You are in NC, right?)
North Raleigh…you?
I’ll still head over for C&J in the mornings…but I’m changing my homepage from dKos to Booman, that’s how serious I am.
I’ll monitor things over there, and maybe direct a few people over here with links to insightful diaries. Some folks wade into the cesspool of the right-wing blogs to edify the Left…I’ll check on what’s happening back home on dKos.
Now we need to get a Firefox extension for Booman (and other Scoop-based blogs), not just Kos…
this doesn’t turn into a Hatfields and McCoys kind of thing…
to bridge the gap, MSOC — if I see something here that’s important, I’ll post a link over there…and if there’s something important there, I’ll post the link here.
The “Internets” is big enough for all voices…
like that. This is my starting place though, and I don’t think I will post much over there. I will be putting my energies into Booman first and foremost because the support is here for what I need and this is where I can grow and share.
I finally broke down and registered today, but I can’t make myself abandon C & J. So many familiar faces here, it’s both good and bad, I guess.
Last night I found myself getting really depressed, about Kos’ stupid post and all the juvenile-minded men who piled on. This morning I’m reminded of all the men (at DKos too) who do support women and feminism. I’m excited that all these wonderful smart women have moved over here to Booman’s place. It feels like Booman Tribune has reached critical mass.
I am not an “ex” yet, but the ongoing comments about the “chicks” and “broads” leaving over “pie” and the “toilet seats being left up” is really making it hard to be over there. I am glad to sign up here today however, so I don’t miss many wonderful diaries and comments from some of my favorites.
But getting close to it.
You go, girls…
until today’s Holy Handgrenade lob- hence, here I am, formerly “tepster”
I’ve lurked here for a while, but have never posted or joined until today.
I didn’t see any of the pie stuff over the weekend, and didn’t even know what anyone was talking about yesterday. Last night, my husband and I watched the ad. He thought it was funny, while I walked out of the room in a huff, almost at a loss to explain my irritation….
Anyway, I wondered where all the people whose comments and diaries I liked to read had gone…now I know.
…as of today from people in support of my posts on the “pie fight” diary at DKos. Most were women, some men, all of them thoroughly disgusted not by the ad (which they shrugged off), but by the hostile attitude Mr. Moulitsa and so many of his “Kossacks” adopted on that diary. Some of them said they were leaving, others hinted at it.
I don’t know–I was gobsmacked myself by those emails, having expected none. My passionate attack on the prevailing “up yours” attitude touched a nerve I didn’t even know existed.
Anyway, after being accused of “Rovian” behaviour by another diaryist at DKos, I’ve had enough. Besides, Booman Trib is so much better designed, and has what I’ve always wanted in a political website: an more internationalist orientation.
Well, here’s another thank you for your posts Shadowthief. You rock!!
Was it good pie? I like pie. From what everyone says I guess I wouldn’t like this pie.
I really don’t know, as I haven’t read Kos for a long time, except the odd recommended diary link. I used to lurk there for the humour, and the election . But I live in China, a different people, manners and culture and all the shouting and bad manners just drove me away..plus I had nothing to say to them.
Too many people, not enough time to post is my guess aas to why it got like that. Here everything is as slow as a hot summer day. With clever people, concerned about ALL the world and our places in it.
I think it just got better judging by all these very cool posts.
“clever people”
I meant to say cleverer than me (so I can learn). I’m being realistic, not putting myself down.
It’s good to see you here…I always enjoy your posts on New International Times.
I like pie…love making pie and will continue to eat pie. None of those here liked this pie’s filling – it was an old and bitter tasting pile of stuff.
We threw that pie out a long time ago – some people keep digging out of the trash can.
That’s um.. so nice. Glad I make someone laugh!
I can make really good tiropittas and spanakopittas, you know those greek filo things…we can teach Kos how to make nice, appetising pies fit for human consumption.
I’m glad to see you on this site. I have been enjoying your diaries for some time. Ironically, or perhaps, not so ironically, your “Erotica” diary was the first I took an interest in, when I joined DK. I found your views on the topic very reflective of my own. You were on my hotlist from then on.
I, too, was deeply troubled by the pie fight incident, not the ad, but the incident. I think, perhaps, you have hit on exactly why I was not affected by the ad. My views on the matter can be found here, should you ever log onto the site again. Leave us say, I think we are in accord on this matter. So, I too, am fleeing the frat boy madness and dismissive attitudes. I’m glad I will be able to hear your lovely literary voice here.
It is a shame to see so many leave KOS. At one time it seemed like the site may even be a voice for radicals. Now that myth is dispelled. I just wonder if so many KOS posters would openly make the juvenile and offensive remarks they made if the issue were race? The harsh reality of how far the institutionalized opression in modern society extends is once again laid bare.
Yeah, it is something I never stop being surprised at, having to fight these battles all over again. Amazing.
Fortunately, we are just the ones to do it.
Yes, same battle, different day, and around and around we go, as many damned times as it takes!
I am also needing a break from Kos, I’m just not sure if it’s temporary or permanent yet, so might as well hang out here for the interim..this seems like a pretty cool place. 🙂
All I can do is reiterate what shirlstars said.. I’m pleased as punch to see you here full-time lorraine…
I’ve always loved all your diaries from Dkos and even though some of them were disturbing and troubling, sa merita as they say in Romanian – they were worth reading. I think you’re a powerful voice speaking on very important issues and because you write from your own perspective rather than some false “objective journalism” standard, they are that much better and more powerful and effective…
And let me tell you, if you’re a whore than so am I and so are most people on the face of the planet, ok? Sheesh.. move to Europe or at least come for a vacation. The American Taliban is so strong you almost forget what the rest of the world is like sometimes 😉
p.s. Someone on the “internecine” thread asked why American men are so fixated on women’s breasts. It’s definitely not such a phenomenon here in Europe that’s for sure.
Maybe you’re just the person to address this issue as its something I’ve never understood.. ack don’t want to open a can of worms here!
Pax
As someone who has BEEN a whore, I am pretty confident when I say that neither of you qualify. At this point, anyway.
Please do not visit the site “Romania” above, it is a tacky dating site with probable links to prostitution and slavery. You have been warned if you missed the now deleted thread on this topic.
Google for Moldova and slavery if you don’t believe me.
I can tell you that a connection with anything like you describe is not possible.
Soj is an old time poster that I have nothing but respect for. They have a very informative and thoughtful blog here. I get the updates and have been following soj’s writings since I started at Kos.
This is quite an accusation to make, and I would have hoped you would have some evidence beyond a Google search before making it.
I understand the frayed nerves here after the fiasco at Kos. Believe me when I say I am on the side of the women here and at Kos, but you are not justified in attacking soj like this.
Truly.
why American men are so fixated on women’s breasts
Very interesting that it’s different in Europe. The first thing that comes to mind is that perhaps it has something to do with the sight of breasts being more commonplace there (I am not speaking from solid knowledge, being an American, but that is my impression); this seems to parallel the idea that binge drinking is more common in the US partially because it is forbidden until age 21 whereas it is commonplace for young teenagers to have a glass of wine with dinner in much of Europe, or so I have been told.
On the one hand, the breast fixation seems to have some negative side effects–e.g., facilitating objectification of women–but on the other, as a man, I have to admit that my girlfriend’s breasts certainly make me happy, and I think the two of us are both glad that they do. (The things one can say while anonymous…)
I still find everyone’s comments in this thread thought-provoking. And I agree with most of what’s been expressed.
I haven’t fled Kos, and don’t intend to, but confess to feeling like I may need time away to lick my wounds, as it were. Also, like many of you I’ve noticed in recent weeks that the demographic there is increasingly militant tyro. Though, not entirely. In Kossackstan, I feel I’ve reached out and touched — and been touched — by some special minds and wise souls. For that I’m grateful.
On the other hand, I think that BooTrib’s happy venue is a place where intelligent, compassionate, progressives can feel at ease. And it’s obvious from reading all your postings that DK’s loss is definitely BooTrib’s gain.
I always enjoy your comments and insights lorraine. Sad, but I think a lot of people will be stepping away.
The saddest thing is that all that was required was some basic RESPECT. Something that the front-pagers, and far too many of the commentors in the threads, don’t understand.
Good to check in and see you here.
Well, in a way it is a relief to hear that others have the same experience at dKos. For a while I was wondering what was going on with me. It was not fun anymore to read the diaries or comments and I started to avoid reading the comments more and more. I thought it was because at present I just do not have much time for the reading blog or whatever, but reading your diary, Lorraine, showed me that it was something deeper going on at dKos. Well, I will definitely continue to read here mostly silently (at least for the moment) and enjoy your diaries.
I must say I missed the whole gender and pie story, but think that was a symptom of something else going on subliminally anyway. So thanks for helping me clearing up my dis-ease.
Glad you’re here also.
I weaned off Kos awhile ago also, mostly because he slammed dunked me once and I took it personally.
Regarding the pie-ad- to me it is more exploitation which is my issue. I’m tired that women are objectified more now than ever. And that Kos succumbed to the ‘money’ angle and refuses to apologize shows me the hypocrisy angle that I have little tolerance for. I use his youth-early 30’s- as some of his ignorance on this issue.
I battle daily with a thoughtless husband who sees nothing wrong with exploiting women and how it demeans me, but that’s another story….
First, I am the same RedDan as on Kos.
Second, I am most certainly not a Kos refugee…but I intend to check in here often – it’s a great site, and you are great people.
Third, let’s look closely at what happened, what was said, why, and how, and what it really means (with the caveat that this is all my own opinion, of course..).
Is the pie ad exploitive? Yes, it is.
Is it offensively so? Yes, it is.
Is that par for the course in any and all venue, anywhere? Yes.
Does that detract from the progressive nature of Kos, or any site that would run such an ad? No, not really — pervasive distortions and prejudices are bound, certain, guaranteed to crop up anywhere modern humans interact.
Were Kos’ comments offensive, immature, and ill-considered? Yup, they were.
Now, for the key points (again, in my opinion)
3.The fact of the matter is that the folks who are “leaving in disgust” from what they “thought was a progressive refuge” (or whatever) should do a quick reality and strategy check – first, how can you expect to change the world for the better if you can’t even change, or even bother to fight for change, in your own corner of that world? Second, how can Kos, or the other members of that community benefit from the potential “teachability” of such moments if all the teachers leave? Third, how can you benefit from the teaching process and learn quite a bit yourselves, btw, if you leave?
People are imperfect. Political movements are flawed. Searching for perfection and comfort is going to lead you into isolation. Laying the fault entirely at the door of the big, bad other is to shed responsibility — the direction of the Kos community and the tone of the various conversations is also your fault and your responsibility…
All that said, I respect your decisions, and hope that in a while you will venture to visit there – I will certainly be visiting here.
Peace,
Dan
I am preparing for bed. I am very happy to see you here. You fit into a weird category for me. You are one of the Kossacks I have eagerly anticipated becoming a member here. And this is for several very complimentary reasons.
But I also notice that I most often disagree with you when you really get into an issue.
Welcome to the site and thanks for posting your thoughtful analysis of the pie-wars. An debate always benefits from your presence.
That’s because when I get fired up I get really foul-mouthed and rude.
It has to do with my upbringing.
I blame society.
I just may have reached the point where I post here first and THEN cross-post to dKos.
We’ll see. I’m fucking exhausted from the bullshit.
That says a lot. I consider you probably the most loyal Kossack I know. I know how much dKos means to you and how much it has helped you.
Maybe you just need to take few days off and decompress. I am exhausted myself, and I have a piercing headache.
I don’t enjoy watching this happen, even if I am happy that we have so many smart, passionate, and intelligent new users.
Let’s hope things can get patched up, for all of our sakes.
I’m finding this utterly depleting.
I think I need to take some time off from everything and regroup.
Maryscott, you’re kickass — whether it’s here or at Kos. Post where you feel comfortable. We’ll follow to read and comment.
So why was it that you haven’t before taken advantage of your front-page status?
Hi RedDan. If I wasn’t so tired I would give a more detailed answer to your comments. While I agree with some of what you say I will disagree with your opinion of the ad itself as par for the course and that pervasive distortions and prejudice are simply bound to crop up…so in other words if an ad popped up there showing a white person in black face eating watermelon for some unknown ad, that would just be something to sorta kinda overlook?
No, it would not be something to overlook…
But you need to think about the fact that, unfortunately, gross caricatures of minorities have receded much further into the background than gross caricatures of women.
Caricatures and misrepresentations of both abound, of course, but the level, or perhaps the degree (?) of that caricature is different.
That said, neither should be accepted, but both should not be surprising – not anywhere.
at length to your post, but just couldn’t. I’m worn out. I will say, as one of those who migrated today, that it’s not surprising what went on over there – but it is demoralizing, tiring, maddening and bad for my soul.
I didn’t leave in a huff or in disgust – I left exhausted and relieved.
Fine.
Rest, relax, recharge.
Contribute where and when you can, how you can, and to whom and where you wish.
I do not and will not command allegiance or what have you.
I merely ask you to think over what I have said – take a look at it again in a week, or a month, and think it over as “objectively” as you can.
That’s all, nothing more.
Of course it is demoralizing and bad for your soul – the divisions engendered by the capitalist order are evolved to do exactly that – the wear down and destroy opposition by external attack (the ‘wingers), inter-community sniping (Gender, Race, Class conflicts within the progressive camp), intra-community sniping (directions, adherences, strategy and tactics), and internal, individual breakdowns (“I can’t fucking take it any more!!”)…
It’s a long, hard slog. Take the time and space to recharge.
We’ll be here, as flawed and mortal, and crazed as we are.
That is exactly how I feel. I’ve been fighting this battle since I was 14 years old and Betty Friedan woke me up. It gets tiring when you spent lots of energy writing well-thought-out arguments only to get multiple responses that ignore every point you made. At some point, it’s just not worth it.
Red dan, I know you mean well, and I agree with much of what you say. But dailykos is not the only venue for progressive politics on the web. He’s not even a progressive in my view. He’s a conservative Democrat. I realized that I needed to start looking around for a new on-line political community when the frontpagers ignored the problems with the 2004 election. This controversy was just the push I needed to do it. There is an incredible amount of subtle censorship of progressive/radical ideas going on there.
And a minor derailment
“But you need to think about the fact that, unfortunately, gross caricatures of minorities have receded much further into the background than gross caricatures of women.”
Alas, I’m not sure this is true, actually. I’d definitely want to characterise much of the anti-immigrant invective over there as ‘gross caricatures of minorities.’ There seem to be plenty of gross caricatures to go around.
Read some of the same comments, and responded over there.
Yep, there is most certainly an infestation of troglodytes happening.
Meteor Blades set some folks straight.
Kos’ post was pretty much neutral and straightforward – yes, many immigrants DO pick grapes and strawberries, and yes, illegal immigration and its subsequent effects on wages and services ARE a problem…the question is why, who, and how…
But yes, there are some pretty ugly comments over there, coming from some pretty odious and nasty folks.
Time to clean house.
Why are they still there and you all here?
.
took over the job of trolling others, even within the first five comments, they themselves posted on the blog. I have often suggested that trolling, being a responsibility and not a right, and should be limited to a minimum number of persons necessary to perform the job.
Even after a four month period of active participation of posting comments and diaries @ dKos, to troll rate others gave me an uneasy feeling.
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
Having been a member at Kos for quite a while with never having TU status, and never rating anyone with less than4,I kinda think DKos has just become too big and unwieldy. It happens with a growing community.
Agree with you that it’s too big and unwieldly. Like many of the women refugees upthread, I’ve found it harder and harder to read DKos in the last couple of months, other than useful/interesting links that have been pointed out from here. Also, the culture seemed to me to become far more aggressive over the course of this year.
I USE it- as a source-not as a source of personal validation.(sorry for the psychological code word).
.
Welcome Red Dan ◊ Great comment I appreciate up to the following —
I don’t believe it is productive to fight within your own community, too much divisiveness leads to a negative, downward spiral. Be sure to follow your gut feeling, move on!
I see it more like the battered housewife, should she stay to fight another day! I like to see issues in shades of gray, but I have basic principles. When these are trampled on, it’s the right decision to show backbone and make the difficult decision and look for a new community and build new friendships. It’s in the end most rewarding, not in the least for your self-respect.
When a blog or diary evolves into a free-for-all brawl, should you join? My reply would be NO! Look for a new community where you spend your energy and contribution is part of stepping stones and building blocks towards a common goal.
I myself migrated slowly from dKos to BooTrib late in March, after a dKos blog death threat. Funny part is I got banned a few weeks later, due to a communication glitch and had to fight back to be able to post comments, use the rating feature and recommends, and be able to cross-post diaries. I am happy that was possible.
Oui aka @dKos as creve coeur and new creve coeur
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
You should follow your heart – of course.
I am suggesting that before following your heart, you should look into your heart, and ask why your heart is leading you in that particular direction, and whether that direction is the best one…
I (obviously, based on my behavior) think it is entirely and incredibly productive to fight within your own community…within certain bounds…. Clearly Kos’ most recent comment was out of bounds, and based on my limited reading and suspicions, the invective directed at him calling him out and accusing him of being anti-progressive for running the ad in the first place was also out of bounds.
I do not think the Kos’ dynamic approaches “battered housewife” syndrome in any way shape or form… I think it is (sorry to be so direct) demeaning and degrading to the situation of battered women to compare the two situations.
I think that joining the fray, again, within boundaries, is constructive toward building and growing. The goal, in my opinion, is not to build a comfortable place but to achieve political aims with concrete results on the ground. Endless splitting never, ever, ever achieves this.
In any case, I certainly respect your decisions – it is yours to make…but I hope that you can take my input for what it is worth – at the very least (it appears based on your reports of cross posting) collaboration between communities must, absolutely must, remain viable.
The goal is not discussion, comfort, or happiness online – the goal is progress on the ground.
.
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
>>I do not think the Kos’ dynamic approaches “battered housewife” syndrome in any way shape or form… I think it is (sorry to be so direct) demeaning and degrading to the situation of battered women to compare the two situations.
RedDan–
You fail to see a link between contraception and reducing abortions?
If physical abuse is abortion, then Verbal Self-Defense is contraception.
Please read the following book
You Can’t Say That to Me: Stopping the Pain of Verbal Abuse by Suzette Haden Elgin.
http://www.josseybass.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-0471003999.html
If we stop the VERBAL abuse, we stop the battering before it starts.
“The goal is not discussion, comfort, or happiness online – the goal is progress on the ground.”
That’s the whole reason I decided to look for other sites, to be honest. DKos may prove useful in the future for hardcore strategy, but I was getting more out of it that I unfortunately am no longer getting.
I happen to WANT discussion, comfort, and happiness on the net and make the on the ground progress through more tangible means (donations, going to meetings, etc).
Dear Dan,
I respect what you have to say, but let me offer my perspective.
I have been in many, many situations where the environment is unhealthy. (I’m 42, by the way, so I’ve been around the block.) When I was younger, I honestly believed that I could change the environment–that if I kept gently (and then not-so-gently) pointing out to the people around me what was going on, they’d start paying attention and stop doing it. It has very rarely worked. So, here’s some things that I have learned.
I have way too much dancing to do…
.
At Aramco in The Hague early seventies, a great place to be employed. At one time a colleague made an advance while in the elevator. No need to think, reaction was a hard kick to the shin, him crying ouch.
Days later, he came by the desk, complaining about his purple-blue spot on the shin. All my partner replied: “Next time it will really hurt”. There was never any problem thereafter.
Your comment shows beauty in words – thanks lorraine.
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
“menstruating she-devils”
Hee hee I am today.
Send him to me I’ll eat him.
is there room for formerly menstruating she-devils?
😉
I’m 60 and I’m experiencing post-menopausal zest but I don’t want to be left out of the “she-devil” category and am a proud member of that “women’s studies set”.
Red Dan writes:
“The fact of the matter is that the folks who are “leaving in disgust” from what they “thought was a progressive refuge” (or whatever) should do a quick reality and strategy check
Red Dan, I wonder if you’re assuming we haven’t already done our reality checking and strategy checking? I sure have, and have been for some time now.
>>>> “first, how can you expect to change the world for the better if you can’t even change, or even bother to fight for change, in your own corner of that world?<<
Daily Kos was never “my” corner of the world and I knew that going in. My corner of the world is where older women with disabilities live, on very tiny incomes,where, once we are no longer seen as sexually attractive, we simply become invisible. In my corner of the world, as a single parent, there was never the money or opportunity for higher education or saving money to invest for retirement. In my corner of the world, what I have learned from a long and difficult life experience has little to no credibility in a society that measures these attributes according to degree status and financial sucess. So no..I knew Kos wasn’t “my corner of the world”, because I’ve never really located my corner of the world.
But I wanted to be there anyway, to learn, and to share what I have learned. What I found there, unfortunately all too often, were plenty of men who hesitated not one second to let women know what they felt we “should” or “should not” think and feel. I found lots of fellas who thought it delightfully clever to use crude sexual humor amd dismissive, sexist remarks freely, then ridicule women for objecting to any of this. So I stayed, and I commented, and I wrote diaries that disappeared into the ether almost before I finished them. Red Dan, I appreciate your thought here, but frankly, I am getting old and I can’t possibly live long enough to write enough comments and diaries to ever change that kind of programmed sexism.
“Second, how can Kos, or the other members of that community benefit from the potential “teachability” of such moments if all the teachers leave? <<
Well, it’s really no loss to those who don’t believe they have anythng to learn from us. You can lead a horse to water, but… etc.
“Third, how can you benefit from the teaching process and learn quite a bit yourselves, btw, if you leave?<<
For me, it’s a matter of deciding whether or not to keep banging my head against the same brick walls I’ve been banging it against for over 50 years, as oppposed to moving on to somewhere where maybe not so many brick walls exist. I’d like to do something more constructive with my head for a change, before I lose ALL my brain cells and start drooling down my shirt.
>>People are imperfect. Political movements are flawed. Searching for perfection and comfort is going to lead you into isolation.<<
OMG, Red Dan, I gave up on perfection and comfort before I was five years old, and isolation wa a familiar old friend.
>>Laying the fault entirely at the door of the big, bad other is to shed responsibility — the direction of the Kos community and the tone of the various conversations is also your fault and your responsibility…
Uh, how is it my fault, exactly? And why am I responsible for changing the chosen,frozen sexist attitudes among the fraternity faction over there? I’m not the one telling men they have no right to think what they think, or react as they wish, or express themselves as they wish. I get to tell them when they’ve crossed my boundaries, you bet I do, but I won’t be held responsible for thier behavior in any way shape or form.
>>All that said, I respect your decisions, and hope that in a while you will venture to visit there – I will certainly be visiting here.
I think I understand that you are acting from very good intent to keep the Kos community vital, RedDan, and not lose good voices, and I commend you for those intentions. I can’t totally detatch from Kos yet myself, but I am seriously considering that head banging thing..and how much more of it I care to do, when there are other places, like this, where I can be useful in more constructive, ways.
ONward!
Scribe,
What a powerful, well written and heartfelt statment. I am so pleased that you have joined the rest of us here at booman. Your words and views are very moving and I am very proud to be your sister.
Hugs
Shirl
Thanks, Shirl..I am very glad to be here.
Thank you, dear scribe.
Forty years of explaining over and over and over.
Forty years of analogies to other kinds of discrimination that are “worthy” enough to be understood.
Forty years of the same battles, two steps forward and one step back.
I thought dkos was a place I didn’t have to do it anymore. I never thought gender politics could reduce me to tears ever again, but the last 2-3 weeks were brutal. I expect that kind of visceral, cruel misogyny from the right, but it broke my old heart to see men of the left viciously lashing out any suggestion that women’s right to own ourselves is at LEAST as important as their desire for endless pictures of arousing female body parts, the right to call GWB a “pussy”, or the political expediency of allowing forced pregnancy.
We women cannot teach men who have no respect for us.
All we can do is refuse to collude with bigots by exposing the self-serving lies they tell about us.
(My favourite was the contention that the women in the pie ads were “expressing their sexuality”, and we frigid feminists just hate sex.” No, you idiots, they are being PAID to express MEN’S fantasy notions of women’s sexuality.) But of course I didn’t SAY that because I was still trying to be diplomatic, still looking for that teaching moment.)
It is other men, men they DO respect, who can teach them. This is no different than the responsibility white people bear to speak our against racism among ourselves.
Does that detract from the progressive nature of Kos, or any site that would run such an ad? No, not really — pervasive distortions and prejudices are bound, certain, guaranteed to crop up anywhere modern humans interact.
DK is not really that progressive, and getting less so by the day — what with all the slams on “single issues” and “identity politics” — you know, the shut up and vote like a good little Democrat mantra.
…how can Kos, or the other members of that community benefit from the potential “teachability” of such moments if all the teachers leave?
As to leaving, rather than staying to fight: they’re called “dollar votes.” That’s right. I’m voting with my feet and my dollars, babe. What was the issue here? An ad? How are those ads sold? Page views. No, I don’t feel the need to ad to Kos’s page views or web site content with my diaries and commentary, so that he can disregard the opinions of those he relies on for his earning, in such a brutally callous manner. And, no, I am not simply talking about this incident, but about a trend toward marginalizing the issues that matter to women… and progressives, for that matter.
I have no illusions that this little exodus is going to put the Daily Kos out of business. I just know that I will not be a willing participant in my own oppression. And let me tell you, sure as I’m breathing, what happened yesterday is a harbinger of things to come. Kos demonstrated remarkable arrogance for one who depends on a community for an income stream. He can be quite comfortable in knowing that this little dust-up won’t imperil the bottom line of that particular site, but the personality dynamics he’s setting up will take him and that site nowhere good. It won’t be today, and it won’t be tomorrow, but if he doesn’t change his attitude, his hubris will be his downfall.
kos? Progressive? DK hasn’t been progressive since November, at the very latest, when kos declared proudly that his was not a progressive blog, but a partisan Democratic blog. In other words, issues don’t matter. People don’t matter. Only The Party matters.
At that point, I should’ve guessed that it was just a matter of time. The pie thing was, really, the last straw for me. Like you, I’ve decided that I just won’t give kos pageviews anymore. I’ve done it to other sites before and, while I know the effect is minimal, saying “I won’t support this shit, no matter how small my effect is” is the very basis of being Progressive.
After all, a few pebbles moving can start an avalanche. Who can, looking back, really say “That’s where it all began?”
I’ve been here less than three hours, and already it feels more pleasant than DK ever did. Though I don’t think I’ll mention who I was there, as I tended to be rather… Vitrolic at times. (I’ll try to behave here, so I ask anyone who figures it out to give me a second chance.)
OMFG! Is Egarwaen Gaelic for Armando??? </totally making shit up>
Congratulations, you very nearly made me spill my drink on my keyboard.
No, I am definitely not Armando.
Would’ve been funny if you were right, though.
You’ve left me (almost speechless).
Recordkeeper has already said what I wanted to say as far as a critique of DKos.
Kos is not a progressive but rather someone who aspires to be a Democratic insider. Doesn’t bother me; I was there for certain diaries, which I found marvellously researched, well-written, and quite interesting.
However, I visited here for the first time yesterday and discovered that most of those diaryists were HERE–so why am I bothering wading through the drek on DKos when all the good stuff is here?
And by the way, I recommended Booman Trib to Recordkeeper–do I get a finder’s fee?
I am not going to leave Dkos, even though that shitnasty post he made pissed me off massively.
The reason being, even though I was pissed, there is a certain amount of sense in getting the paid ads.
My puter went by by last week so I missed most of the shitstorm.And glad I did ! Tit shows are a part of life ,I guess.
What I object to is the lack of respect .
I am not a prude by any means. (heh).But to dis your female members like that is just rude.
.
Absolutely stunning on the Site meter as I view it from my Time frame: East coast wakes up with the meter above 9,000 pageviews!
The ratio page views vs. visits is high, an indication BooMan’s Tribune is being read and checked out. Welcome to all newbies, refugees, apprentice bloggers, domestic of foreign fighters for the good cause of democracy.
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
Another (55 year old woman) refugee checks in.
I was here early on, but with only so many hours in the day, tended to mostly read Dkos for the news.
I was truly ticked at Kos’ tone about the Ohio fraud diaries and felt that an adult could have handled that better.
Now I’m just plain disgusted at the tone he used in his post and especially his update, and how that has enabled the juveniles there. And I’m incredibly sad that he and that group can’t seem to stop and LISTEN.
I need some time among the grownups…thanks for being here.
There is a gender issue on this site right now, under all our noses. Take away all your preconceptions and reread or read “Anniversary of a Dream” by Soj. Despite the ecellent credentials of the poster, she has made a big mistake with this. We will be hypocrites if we allow this diaries to continue side by side..I am sorry to speak the truth. I have to as a woman and human being.
to cover how I felt after reading that.
I guess ’cause I’m new, I didn’t have any preconceptions — eyes wide open and….yikes!
Older posters — I have noticed that everyone here refers to ‘soj’ as ‘she’ — is that a known fact here? I never knew (or really cared) over at dkos, but today, it has become vitally impoartant that I know.
Look for the ‘Blog Roll’ under recent diaries.
You’ll find a link to her blog – Flogging the Simian – there.
But actually anyone, including me, can fabricate identities, write great articles or poor, and be whoever they want.
Let’s stick to this anniversary diary and demand it to be removed. It’s wrong for us to advertise sth so dubious alongside such fine feminist sentiments as found in this diary.
Part of the problem is that sexism is so rooted in our society, that people don’t recognize it for what it is. And so they think you’re a mental case for pointing it out.
I thought the ad was sexist myself. It positively reinforced the notion that juvenille behavior was desirable in women to attract a man. As a man myself, though, I want a woman who is smart and who knows what she is talking about.
But it was not nearly as sexist as some of the beer posters I see at my local bar, which blatantly hold women up as sex objects.
The goal here, I think should be to get back to the basics of how to disagree without being disagreeable. Part of the problem, I think, is that many people have sucessfully learned to cope with sexist behavior and thus don’t sympathise with anybody who raises a problem with it when they see it.
Another problem is that some people think that if you criticise sexist remarks, you are being sexist yourself because you are assuming that women are incapable of defending themselves. What would be a good answer to that argument?
It’s worse than that though. If some of these women are not prostitutes then I am still in diapers. And it’s advertised by us. Here. Feel comfortable with that everyone?
And to the people who trivialize the issue I would say If its no big deal, then its no big deal to take it down.
Hi, Hope, my dear ally in the “using women’s body parts as terms of abuse” wars.
Men who think women are inferior don’t care what I say, because they think I’m inferior. My criticism of their sexism is just a joke to them.
I learned this years ago from a dynamic black man who appeared on Phil Donahue’s talk show. (Yup, YEARS ago)
He said that no white bigot gave a damn about his opinion. He said that nothing he did could change the heart of a racist bigot, but white disapproval could change his behavior. That man’s powerful challenge to all white folk to DO something hit me like a freight train. Refraining from racist acts was not enough. Examining the inculcated racism of a lifetime in myself was not enough. I had to disapprove of racism everywhere I encountered it. NOT to censor the bigots, not to deprive them of their right to say whatever nasty thing they choose, but to give lie to their belief that the white people around them share their hateful views.
Qui tacet consentit – silence implies consent.
I am not “defending” people of colour when I denounce racism. I hate racism. I hate it myself, not on behalf of anyone else.
Men are more likely to listen when another man says, “I don’t think that’s funny.” You can bet there are other good men standing around who didn’t think it was funny, either.
There is much more power behind “I don’t agree with that”, than “Woman don’t like it when you say that”, because male supremacists don’t CARE if women like it or not. But they care what other men think. They care a lot.
Thank you, thank you. Your name was well chosen, Eternal Hope.
I’ll remember to say that I’m the one whose upset by it; which I honestly am.
Just got back from the DKos wars; they are still in full combat mode over there. There are some feminists who think the pie objectors are trivializing the issue of women’s rights. I won’t be able to change anybody’s minds on that one, but I can work on common interests with them. For every pie diary that comes up, I will challenge people to take a women’s issue and write a diary about it. I’ll start writing some myself tomorrow.
Lorraine:
I’ve been a big fan of your diaries at dKos for some time now. Until now, I’ve only occasionally lurked here. But when I saw this diary I had to get a Booman account so I can keep up with your writing.
Fortunately, I missed the pie fights. I’m saddened that you’ve decided to leave dKos, but happy I was able to find you at your new home.
thank you. I’m touched. Really.
I think I will be hanging out here more often as well…..I never liked the lack of respect on the main diaries at dkos, which starts with Kos. Except for Cheers and Jeers and the related diaries, the scene is just too nasty. Yes, the attitude is truely adolescent–“it’s my blog and I can do as I want, if you don’t like it, go elsewhere.”
These issues are important!
How are you doing? Back into the swing of things yet? Or still swinging at things? 🙂
It does seem much more ‘civil’ over here…
a little of both sherm!!!!
Nice to see you posting over here….
I’m a little frayed around the edges right now but just wanted to say hi…hope things are going well for you.
Looking forward to seeing your name here regularly.
Sister Lorraine,
I’m not sure I ever commented on your magnificent diaries at Kos, but I was a fan. I haven’t quite left Kos yet, but today’s the first day I’ve stopped by here, and now that I know you’re here, I’ll come here more often.
Peace,
dj
When I saw the “feminist Kos” discussion, my first question was, “What does Loraine think of all this?”
Now I know. And I’m in hearty agreement.
I’m also glad that, via links on this topic elsewhere, I found this place, which up until now had escaped my attention. I just had to join.
I’d comment on the Kos stuff, but I’ve already posted 3 blog entries on it.
Hi Lorraine – I stumbled into the tail end of the pie controversy over at Kos and was saddened to hear that it had caused an exodus. That place won’t be the same without your thoughtful commentary and the wonderful discussions provoked by your diaries. They have been some of the highlights of my Kos experience and have brought me into contact with lots of like-minded women (getmeoutofdixie and ethan’s mom come to mind, but there are many more).
How lucky for me, then, that I came to visit Booman for the first time today and saw this diary! I’ll definitely be coming back, and keeping an eye out for other ex-kossacks.
Take care, and see ya around!
Melanie
Some will never learn that it’s not our beauty that makes us strong; it’s our strentgh that is our beauty.
I feel.. so sad today. Sad and angry.
C&J is a totally area for me than the actual dailykos area. So I am relieved that I, once again, don’t have to lose friends over making a stance.
I feel like I’ve been slapped in the face. I’ve never been known to shy away from innuendo or joking around… I’m definitely not a “prude”… butI feel betrayed politically. That I’m okay to march with as long as I don’t get too “uppity”…
They might as well said… “Your upset??? You must be on the raggggggggggggggggggg”
Just some ramblings from a humanist.
We’re here together…big hugs to you!
Don’t let the whole thing drag you down…lots of veterans of this war here. Hold up a hand and we’ll help with the anger and frustration.
Looking forward to meeting with you in July with Jonathon!
I’m not asking anyone to go look at the ad, but I’ll just say that the still shot on Kos’s home page has changed. The new still for the ad shows Mary Ann on her hands and knees, a$$ mostly exposed and in the air, on top of Ginger, who is lying on her back, smeared with pie.
I understand that Kos needs to support his site, but if this particular version of the picture were displayed in a 2005 workplace, it would be what we in the trade call a lawsuit waiting to happen. For myself, I am not given to squeamishness, but the picture is something I certainly don’t need to see when I blog.
Yes- it is like an extra F- you from Kos. Just in case we didn’t get it the first time.
I particularly enjoyed the comments from other Kossacks suggesting that if you don’t want to look at ads like that, you should pay to support the site. That would go over extra-well in a harassment suit.
I’m certain that the image is the advertiser’s.
Which is painfully ironic, considering the shitstorm that this has caused.
I agree that Kos probably didn’t freeze it on that particular frame, any more than the guy in the next cubicle over actually took the picture of the girl in the calendar. The issue is that having seen the picture, Kos is choosing to display that particular picture in his blog environment.
But I’m assuming that the image is chosen by the ad’s source, not the site it’s displayed on.
I’d be really surprised if Kos — or any blogger — had that control over the image that an ad displayed.
Feel free to display more knowledge of the technology involved. Mine’s sparse, indeed.
I wish I could speak to the technology. I just can’t imagine that Kos didn’t have the option to stick with the freezeframe he had yesterday, which didn’t feature Maryann’s a$$ in the air as she crouched over Ginger. If Kos is selling the choice of image to the advertiser, he’s taking the risk for whatever they put there. If a private company allowed that picture in their workplace the plaintiff would be counting the dollar signs, no matter who actually put the picture up.
is running on TV…
I suspect that the contract simply calls out that the ad will depict one or another of the frames from the TV ad….
Never ascribe to malice what can be…
I will continue to visit dkos for cheers and jeers because I like that community, and I like to laugh. But, I will no longer write diaries, not that I was prolific, nor make comments.
I will continue to read diaies there and am encouraged that the absence of female comments is being noticed.
But, I am grateful that BooMan is here and for the migration of the goddesses.
Outlanddish,
I have come to the same conclusion that you have, I will continue to visit dKos for my daily dose of Cheers and Jeers, mainly out of respect for Bill and for the community that he has created, which is far more important to me that the one Markos has decided to piss all over.
I posted what i thought was a thoughtful series of questions for Markos and the dKos community as a whole today, and was VERY disappointed by the tone of the vast majority of the responses (not that I’m surprised, just disappointed).
I have posted here previously and I will concentrate my diary efforts here in the future, as this community is far more welcoming and reasonable that what has become of dKos.
thh. I read your diary and thought it was wonderful, but then I couldn’t bear to read very far down into the comments.
But I wanted to tell you that I read your stories about alcoholism and I wanted to tell you how important it was that you posted Battling Alcoholism IV: The First Ninety Days when you did. That morning I had found out that my husband’s stepmom had been murdered. She had split up from my father-in-law in December because he refused to drink with her and she had met someone who was able to manipulate her while she was intoxicated. The whole thing happened so quickly from when she started drinking again to when she was found beaten to death next to a half empty bottle of bourban. My father-in-law is an alocholic – sober some 20+ years. I’ve always been proud of him for that. Alcohol can lead to so many horrible things – my husband’s mom was killed by a drunk driver, now his stepmom murdered. What you’re doing is so important and it just made a lot of sense to me that day. So when I read your diary you can’t even imagine how proud I was for you – and I don’t even know you. =)
I decided to come by after seeing a link here from Women Kossacks, and glad to see that so many of the strong women writers made their way here.
I’ve been losing interest in DKos for a while now. The goal there seems to be putting Democrats into seats with little regard for anything else (i.e. paying attention to a particular candidate’s stances, etc.).
The picture is bigger that that. I said it there and I’ll say it here, a could care less what party a politician is in…if we agree on the issues that are important to me then I’ll support them. I vote for individual Dems because I believe in what they stand for, not because I’m some party-line dittohead.
Anyway, glad to be here and I look forward to reading more.
Oops.
*I could care less, not *a could care less. Even with spellcheck I still make typos. ^_^
This will teach me to pay closer attention on the weekends…or maybe not. Maybe its a good thing that I was too busy to read the front pages like I usually do on Sundays. Wow.
I totally agree with the overall analysis that the “feeling” at dKos has become too hardline. That whole “It’s my world like it or lump it” attitude is very offputting. I dont mean from individual diarists or posters. I mean from Kos himself. And Armando. Its a leadership thing – they set the tone and right now the tone is waaaaay too harsh.
I wont leave however, because there are individual diarists who I love. There are people over there still doing some wonderful things. However, I AM glad that this whole thing has re-awakened me to Booman. I will definately be looking over here more often since many of the people who I liked from dKos – like Lorraine – will be here.
I spotted a reference to the diary on the new Women Kossacks blog (now we need to get the Firefox dKos extension applicable to more Scoop-based blogs!), and came over to say “hi”.
I missed all the excitement over the “pie fight” too. I saw the link to the ad, and figured it was too dumb to click on — I never clicked the Grist link with the short skirt either. I’m not planning to watch a dumb “reality show” based on a dumb sitcom.
I’ll probably stay on dKos for a while longer — I’ve found a small niche there, mainly C&J — and I’m still learning things. But I’ll probably come over here more often, and hit Women Kossacks, and maybe finally get up the nerve to get my own blog going. We’re not like the Right who has their approved list of “voices” — we all have something to say, whether trivial or profound.
I’ll miss you, SallyCat, and a lot of others at dKos, but I’m glad to know that I’ll find your voices out there somewhere, and I’ll be sure to post plenty of links to your work to continue to educate the community.
Blessings and peace…
I have to say, I love your diaries and the way you do link the personal with political, or just do the personal… And female sexuality is daily becoming more important to me as a political issue, as I see it daily getting stomped on… And I fully believe discussion is good… We’re all whores, in their eyes… we’re women, therefore whores by definition… Yes, discussion is good…
I’m still on kos, but will be visiting elsewhere, particularly here, much more…
Thanks for your words…
Thanks Lorraine!
I signed up here months ago and have been lurking.
Given the atmosphere at Kos … I think … I’m ready to make that place my second home and not my primary residence. Drop in now and then, you see, but transfer the inner workings of my heart and mind here.
I’ve found this whole episode quite disturbing and am still in the middle of processing it all.
Thanks, Lorraine, for your voice and your spirit. And thanks for Booman for having an alternative universe to host what I’m beginning to think of as a silent exodus — for every one of you speaking up on the threads, I’m sure there are a dozen like me who are witnessing the unfolding in a kind of shocked stupor.
I’m heartsick. And nearly voiceless. And grateful that all of you over here exist.
With a heavy heart here I am. I’m tired of all the crap. I can generally toughen up and still stand my ground but I heard almost no sisters today on Kos. I couldn’t figure out what happened, it was strange – there was a certain energy completely absent from the site.
So it was that. No female voices.
I had just posted something on dk that I wish I could pull now…but in it I wrote like I was the last one at the party and couldn’t figure out why.
And then I see all these comments that I thought were so full of crap and b.s. getting 4’s and not that I care BUT 4’s for more CRAP, and good comments getting ignored and..now I know why.
I was like “where the hell is everyone??”.
Then I read a comment and found out where.
And you know…sadly for Markos.
He and Bush honestly do share something in common.
And it’s a refusal to back down – to sincerely apologize.
To mean it.
Not the “Sorry, but let me tell you what I’m not sorry about…” kind.
No matter how much burns around them, they’re not going to fix it by saying “maybe I was wrong.”
He knows what’s going on right now.
But nope. Saying more would show what?
Weakness? Caving?
Like he’s so important now?
I don’t get it.
I’m always screwing up and I’m always apologizing.
It’s so easy. To do both.
And not being able to make that small step…
Well. Markos is acting as young as he looks.
Or, on the flip side, spiteful.
Which would really suck.
Christine
I had posted this at DK, but it bears repeating–I never went to DK for anything BUT the diaries. Some of the best, and most compelling stuff I’ve ever read were there. When a community starts to disrespect those who make it such a great place, it’s forgotten what made it so special in the first place.
As with many others, I didn’t care one way or the other about the pie ads–I didn’t actually even notice it until it was brought up. However, the response was overwhelmingly shocking for a “progressive” site, and really disappointed me. Not only did people not understand WHY people were upset, they literally were making fun of them. It was like Kos gave them permission to act completely rudely towards women–I didn’t see that happening with ANY other groups. When there were the religious wars going on, there were repeated calls for respect and tolerance. Unfortunately there was way too little of that during this fiasco. Also, it was not just this one incident–women’s issues were consistently put down or demeaned. I’m glad to see some of my favorite posters here.
I posted this in response to the comment about “sanctimonious womens studies”
then decided to come over here.
“Give us another 4,000 years,” she said, “and we’ll talk about mainstreaming.”
I’ve got two thoughts:
4,000 years is long enough for ya’ll to wait. Progressive men shouldn’t whine like Dittoheads about this.
Saw the comment this morning….made me smile over my morning coffee!
Good to see you here!
all the uppity women, er, “the sanctimonious women’s studies set” have gone? Hola!
I’m in a simmer, a long slow boil. And I haven’t yet finished the stew, so I’m at more of a rant than a poem (a writer here).
It’s the “women’s studies set,” Markos’ words that eats away at me. Classifying, not listening. Labeling, not listening. Defending, not listening. Aggression, not accommodating (tolerance); winning, not process.
Only once before did I come across that labeling: women’s studies. And I felt the same way.
It’s like taking a person’s lifetime and jamming it into a bullet, so it can be fired back at you, making you a victim.
A life, that’s what it was. And I think every woman who fought the fight through the 60s, 70s and beyond understands that it wasn’t something “out there.” It’s in here, inside. We lived it. Lived, not studied. Lived, not joined. Lived, outgrowing a marriage; lived, raising sons and daughters; lived, fighting for a job ruled out because of gender (and winning); lived under glass ceilings; lived in the face of cruelty masked as humor; lived, goddamnit!
“If you prick me, do I not bleed?”
And if I say that ad (that phrase, that action) is offensive, I expect that you will ask: Why?
Maybe I’m sensitized. I’ve made my way in a Caribbean community for the last 17 years, learning, learning, learning. When I moved to the US Virgin Islands, I never would have dreamed that I (a white, liberal Yankee) could be “racist.” Well, I’ve listened for 17 years, and I have to admit that I probably still do/say things that could be called racist. BUT, I am aware; if not, enlighten me.
Women’s issues, nay lives, are like that. All we ask is that you be aware.
I’m pissed off. Thanks for listening. And I’m so glad Booman has a nurturing shelter.
The Women’s Studies comment really got to me, too. I was Program Faculty for the Women’s Studies Department during my time at Minnesota State. There was one faculty person who I would say did the “victim feminism” (one of her colleagues, a woman studying feminism in the developing world–particularly the Phillipines, first gave me the “victim feminism” term). The rest of the folks, myself included, were doing any number of other things. It pisses me off to see the people I worked with–not to mention myself–maligned in such a way.
My work never seemed to “fit” at Kos…Maybe it’s because of that Women’s Studies thing. Whatever. I’m happy to see the folks I enjoyed the most over here, the folks with whom I could have the best conversations…
Kos hangs out once a week with Janeane Garofalo and Sam Seder on Air America. I wonder if Janeane ever took women’s studies, and what she would make of all this.
Maybe we should ask her.
I’m listening to Janeane and Sam now, and Kos is going to be on tonight. I don’t know about women’s studies courses, but I do know Janeane has repeatedly declared herself to be a feminist. She’s also been known to disagree, emphatically, with Kos in his previous appearances on the show.
On the other hand, she claims to be computer-illiterate, so it’s very likely she hasn’t seen any of the discussion on this.
Like Maryscott, I’ll probably continue to post at dkos (Can we shift the fratboy culture? Inquiring minds want to know…..)–but missed y’all and came over to say hi. I thought the boob jokes from so-called progressive males went out in the early ’80’s? They are so not-getting-it–“It’s not the ad, stupid, it’s your juvenile and disrespectful response to even being called on it!” This gets so old……
Given the number of gay men there…
Oh, yeah, there’s a piece of it–the piece that feeds the fratboy culture in the first place.
Culture’s tough stuff. Hard to destroy, hard to change, hard to reform.
I’m not so much talking DKos, as just in general.
It’s been a hell of a long slog–just so far–for people to move to where we are now, from "free, white, and 21"–not to mention male, wealthy and connected.
But when you look back over spans of time, there is progress. Vast progress.
Free. That’s been extended to everyone… and any violation of it is criminal.
White. We’re still working that one through. But vast progress, still. And still a long way to go.
21. Oh. Well. Some slight progress. (Though I’ll admit now that I’m well on the other side of that divide, and have been reading a lot of recent brain development stuff… and watching my young teens… I have to say that this one’s not so clear to me any longer.)
Male. Progress. Of a sort. Actually, in many ways, quite a lot. But there’s a long way to go.
Wealthy & Connected. I think we’ve barely scratched this one, myself. And I think that it’s the real bastion.
Heck, we’ve even made… some… progress on Straight.
Work in Progress.
Which is why we need, and need to be, <I>Progressives</I>.
where the GIRLCOTT is happening?
Your commatres, blksista
to you!
I am finding it rather ironic that I posted my dKos ladies of the canyon diary when I had no idea what was going on in the pie–thread simultaneously–I was there for a second, but never gave it a second thought.
and no wonder I had no takers for my animal-dressing thread the following night.
I have this way of being slightly out of it…..
for your umbrage. I just don’t agree that packing up and leaving is a good response.
Which isn’t to argue for the ad, or Kos’ response, or any of the rest…
But leaving that open forum means that the voices that leave won’t be heard by people. DKos is a big forum. And no matter how many people are–justly–pissed, it’s going to remain one.
Staying in conversation with those who will remain in the gravitational well that DKos is… would be valuable. Those who are there and didn’t really get it, or were clueless, or missed it… or those who come later and aren’t party to this fracas… will miss what you might have to say, the education they might get.
And, in the end… an open chasm in the progressive movement only benefits the right.
Yes, women get the short end of the stick. Yes, it’s been that way for a long time. No, men–most of us–don’t get it. And even those that do will screw up… the system’s still rigged.
But departing conversation means that you’ve given up on moving minds–which is at some level an admission of defeat.
Far better, I think, to stay. Tell Kos he’s an ass. Explain why. Chain yourselves to the gates and continue to make the point about privacy and sexism….
Or you’ve given up on trying to persuade people who are already far more likely to "get it" than the bulk of the population. And that’s not a recipe for success.
most of us have been “engaging in dialogue” on this sort of stuff for years and years. At some point, various of us decide not to waste our time with those who refuse to change their behavior. I’m not leaving dkos–but have had to fight my own inner leanings in order to convince myself to stay–for now. If something feels dismissive and abusive, at some point you have to decide what you need to do about it to live a harmonious life.
to understand that on fundamental human rights issues, you MUST engage in them on the understanding that you may not see them corrected in your lifetime. That’s not what one hopes or aspires for, but one must engage in them with the mindset of water on rock.
One day–hopefully soon–the rock will give way.
Richard Newman writes <div class="blockquote">Abolitionism was born with the American republic.</div> He’s wrong. Abolitionism dates back–at least–to the 17th century, among the Quakers. And even so, it wasn’t embraced by the Quakers until well into the 18th century.
(In NJ, the Germantown Monthly Meeting noted their opposition to slavery in 1733. Abolitionism had to be struggled for among Friends until its promotion by concerned Friends like Anthony Benezet and John Woolman led to its becoming essentially a universal (Quaker) viewpoint. Before then, some Friends owned slaves. Friends opposed mistreatment of slaves and promoted the teaching of Christianity to them… but…. Woolman argued that buying, selling, and owning human beings was wrong in principle. The Philadelphia Yearly Meeting prohibited members from owning slaves in 1776.)
The struggle must go on, because it what’s being struggled against is fundamentally wrong–on principle.
But going away angry because some people don’t get it… and are rude in their not getting it… doesn’t serve the objective.
Without water, the rock doesn’t erode.
Waste your time? What? WASTE your time?
<arrrrrrrrgggggggghhh!>
Look, if it takes another hundred years, and none of us alive today see it, is the end worth it?
I think it is.
If the sum total good that you might do on this issue is to get through to one person who is generally well-intended, of good will… but Does Not Get It (and Kos might be a great example…), then that would be enough. Someone else’s mind can be moved by someone else who STAYS in dialog.
It’s profoundly frustrating that things can’t be fixed faster. They ought to be. But it’s crucial that one stays at it.
And stomping off in a huff because people who OUGHT to get it don’t–and are rude–is counterproductive.
If it takes another year… or three… or 10… or 30… to get through to someone, then that’s how long it takes. Dig in for the long haul. We may never see the "promised land".
So it goes. The struggle is worth the struggle because the objective is worth the struggle.
The struggle is worth the struggle because the objective is worth the struggle.
That’s why I shall continue to cross-post diaries there, just to keep the word “Abortion” visible in the titles of the diaries column.
If I didn’t hide from the KKK, I’m damned if I’ll duck a pack of superannuated frat boys on Viagra.
"I’m damned if I’ll duck a pack of superannuated frat boys on Viagra"
There’s a whole new meaning there to "blue state".
must pick their battles and decide what’s a waste of their time, and how to fight, and when to fight. As somebody with decades in the political trenches, I’m well aware that change can take lifetimes.
THE issue in the 2004 elections was, to me, the judiciary. The Supreme Court, in particular. If the Right has its way, privacy rights will be swiss cheese–and apply only to (some) Christians and corporations. There’s a laundry list of reasons that people should have voted for every Democrat they could of–and particularly for Kerry–even if they had to hold their noses and run to the nearest bar to get roaring drunk in order to feel ok….
But the judiciary and privacy were the keystone. Which is being termite-eaten even as we speak.
It’s why I’ve told my wife that she’s on notice… (she’s marginally interested in politics, to my frustration, and intensely cynical… and feels that they’re "all" corrupt, etc… so she leaves the political analysis and decisions that result from it largely to me… to my intense frustration) we may be moving to Canada soon. Between the fact that I think that there’s a draft coming… and our sons will be in the blast zone of it… and the fact that I think it’s only a matter of time before the GOP tries to gut Griswold and Roe (perhaps leaving the husks of them in place, but gutting them nonetheless), I’m >< that close to filing for immigration papers.
I think that’s the size of the thread on which the meaningful life of the Republic hangs.
And it’s the judiciary.
So I agree with the object of your argument.
But I think that allowing the disagreement (and inability to get past ingrained ignorance on the associated issues) within the progressive movement only helps the enemy.
I’m appalled that NARAL backed Chafee. I think that was a narrow focus decision–justifiable in the small. But in the larger arena, Chafee and the other members of the GOP aren’t our friends, and the price is terribly, terribly high.
I missed the whole pie issue due to a 10 day vacation away from the computer. Looks like was the mother of all pie fights.
I’ve read several of the diaries and the response from Kos. As a human being with numerous decades of experience and living, I certainly don’t need anyone to tell me what I should and should not find offensive. Nor do I need to be insulted. So, here I am too.
I have missed the thoughtful diaries by kid oakland, meteor blades, lorraine, georgia10, booman, MSOC, etc, who have moved away from dailykos. Even billmon is posting again. I’m not looking for snark, I’m looking for insight, direction, and great dialog. I’ll go where I find it.
I look forward to reading and commenting on booman, and keeping in touch with what feels like a group of wonderfully bright old friends.
Incase you haven’t seen it yet, kos edited the infamous pie diary. Of course the ad is still up.
But it was the descussion that got noxious, if not toxic.
And Kos’ really explosive stupidity has been apologized for. Which doesn’t mean that it’s all better. But the worst (I think) thing he said he’s backed off of….
You know, I thought the ad was inappropriate, but beyond that I didn’t care. However, when the webmaster advocates sexism….its all over but the screamin
To move a whole bunch of minds than to engage that webmaster and lead him to water?
He might still not drink.
But a lot of people (including Armando and Meteor Blades) have called him out on the sanctimonious remark, in particular. He’s backed up, apologized…
There’s an opportunity here.
And I fear that it’s being pissed away in the general indignation and the stampede away from DKos.
Nothing against setting up another forum. Nothing against expanding this one. More is better.
But again, to make it clear what I’m saying…
People are paying attention. Good and bad “Pie diaries” are still dropping like goat turds on DKos. Kos has gotten the proverbial 2×4 between the eyes. If lorraine and the rest of the women who can articulately explain it all to Markos don’t, they’re missing the opportunity to push him towards understanding the various issues. And, probably more importantly, they’re missing the opportunity to push the thousands of readers towards understanding.
Which is a pity, IMO.
The so-called apology…really, it was a piss poor attempt at an apology.
The ball is in Markos’ court. He fueled the debate and enabled the fratboys to scream “Kos is our man!” He could go a long ways to heal the divide by simply posting a front page article admitting that he has a problem understanding the issues being raised. That he is very sorry to piss off so many people and would they please come back and discuss the issue with him so that he can learn from the experience.
This would be the honorable thing, and the right thing to do. Any chance we will see this soon?
Laughing! We can count on it!
This would be the honorable thing, and the right thing to do. Any chance we will see this soon?
It was over 90 degrees here in North Carolina today. I don’t think hell has frozen over yet.
attitude.
Just saying…
It was a pretty lame apology. But it WAS an apology, for godssake.
It’s crappy form to throw even a half-assed apology back in someone’s face and tell them "try again, jerk!"
I understand the impulse to do so. I’m Irish-Italian, among other things, and poor impulse control and a hot temper… are a bad combination. Been there, done that, have the scars….
Far, far better to grab the apology and use it. It’s a handle. Ok, Markos, you were wrong. Thank you for acknowledging that you were wrong. Reel out some more from him, instead of assuming that he’s going to just see it and understand it and spill it on his own. Lead him to it.
Not just for his own benefit, but as a way of getting others to see it.
I don’t think that he yet understands that he doesn’t understand the root problem. But he does understand that his sneering remark was waaay out of line, insulting, demeaning and really offensive.
Dear god, don’t pull the stereotypical "If you don’t know what you’ve done wrong, then you don’t get it" routine. He doesn’t, really. You can be righteous… and win… nothing. Or you can grit your teeth, and work with it.
Miss the opportunity… or not. <shrug>
It was a pretty lame apology. But it WAS an apology, for godssake.
I’ve been back over kos comments and I don’t see anything that could be mistaken as an apology. Where is this famous apology?
I did go back over the diary tonight. He said insted of denigrating everyone who took a womens’ studies course, they were sanctimonius.
I can’t figure out how to quote, but this is Kos’ apology:
Quote:
“Update: Hmm, after considering the early feedback, it seems most people didn’t have a problem with the ad, but had a huge problem with my sweeping generalization of the “women’s studies set”.
It’s a fair critique, and duly noted. I stand by everything else written, which is offensive enough to some people as is. But I honestly didn’t mean to smear anyone who has ever taken a women’s studies course, or majored or minored or gotten an advance degree in it. Just what is, to me, a small, extremist set looking for signs of female subjugation under every rock. So yeah, a poor choice of words that cast the net far too wide to cover the people that have, in fact, pissed me off.” End quote.
So tell me, where is the apology to women. Instead of being womens’ study assholes we are sanctimonius assholes because we dared to insinuate that objectifcation of women was wrong.
forgive me, I just got back from DKos in the false hope that I could talk some sense. I asked MCJoan to reconsider her position on staying there in light of the fact that it would make a great statement if all women left at once. I did not ask her to leave, all I asked is that she consider the impact. She did not agree and I can live with that. But, what pissed me off was I received several messages that I was some kind of asshole for even suggesting that women make a statement, many from other women.
I was deeply saddened by what I saw. I am not a radical feminist. I admit that I took a few Womens’ studies classes, but I also made my jokes about reactionary feminists. This issue moved beyond an ad, it moved into how do Democrats see women. And I realised that many women accept being trivialized.
We have so much farther to go.
Bullshit.
Abusers apologize too. They even mean it sometimes.
Not that I see anything in this Kos update that suggests actual regret or even a willingness to listen.
You are acting as if this disagreement is like arguing over some economic reform or political maneuver. When the argument is over whether or not a certain group of people deserve to be treated as such, there is only so much that the group in question can do from inside the system. At some point you need to step outside in order to challenge it properly (and for your own sanity).
It’s not as if we are refusing to engage Kos and others in conversation ever again. People are just refusing to do so on his messed up terms. There gets to be a point when you need to say “here and no further” or they will simply keep going. In relationships this means setting boundaries of acceptable behavior. Kos has crossed those, and actions, not mere words, are needed to re-establish trust. Saying “I refuse to be treated this way” is hardly the same thing as “you don’t get it.”
If Kos is actually willing to engage others in conversation about this, let him do so by responding to the many excellent posts throughout the blogosphere on this fracas, rather than simply half-heartedly defending his obnoxious comments – and staying silent regarding the mysoginist reactions of his own community.
And while it is probably partly because my blood pressure hasn’t dropped much since I first heard about this Tuesday morning, I find your last comment a little insulting.
I realize you didn’t mean it that way, but…..seriously. You’ve just read how many posts from peopl saying that they have plenty of experience with reactions and circumstances like this, some of them women who probably played at least some small part in the feminist movement of the ’70’s and you think that we don’t know what we are doing? That we are wasting opportunity instead of taking advantage of it? Look around at all the networking (at yes, even a bit of strategizing) that’s going on around you and tell me again that we are missing the opportunity. Sitting back and continuing to play by sexist rules would be the real missed opportunity.
Don’t worry, we don’t plan on stopping now.
The thing is…..Booman has spellcheck
I never saw the ad, didn’t read Markos’ comments – but what I have been reading at DailyKos today has convinced me that where I belong is here, with the women I respect and whom I can trust to respect me.
I don’t feel the need to say goodbye there. The comment I can make that will have meaning and will be appreciated is to say hello here.
Hello!
And HELLO to you, as well. Welcome!
And Hello to you as well – welcome to all!
Welcome sister….it’s good to see your name here.
The water is nice and the people are friendly and encouraging. A place for our voices and support to go with it!
Just had to post–I’ve moved over here, at least partially. I, too, loved the diaries over at Kos but g-d how often is one required to educate some pimple faced boy (or girl) about feminism and why it matters?
Aimai over there/Aimai over here
PS Lorraine I’m one of your many admirers, and the same for so many people I’ve discovered are posting over here.
Repeat as necessary.
Repeat as necessary.
Repeat…
Trying to change deeply rooted cultural behaviors and assumptions is slow work. Long work. Hard work — real hard work, not just cutting some brush in Texas.
Maddeningly long, slow, hard work.
Repeat.
But there does get to be a point in specific arguments when walking away is the best option. If the person you are “debating” refuses to engage in discussion unless it is on his or her terms, then there is not much you can do and that specific point in time. At some point it becomes more like feeding trolls and less like actual discussion.
And when it comes to pimply faced boys (or obnoxious men who should know better, for that matter) sometimes engaging them in such so-called debates only feeds their sense of entitlement as well.
Hi there Lorraine,
I’ve been reading responses here, on Pandagon, and on the womenkossacks blog. I had managed to remain oblivious to the whole pie-fight…I thought the diaries with “pie” in the titles were some odd reference to PastorDan…I seem recall him using pies in a poll and diaries and comments or something. I was aware of the sexism on the site, I wasn’t aware how bad it had become.
I usually skipped the things Kos posts–like others above, I tend to go look for a few particular people, to write a bit and use that as an opportunity to chat. It seems that you, like a lot of my other favorite people to chat with, have migrated over here, so here I am tagging along.
My work never seemed to be a terribly good fit over there (although I was a little bit proud when two of my posts were front-paged). I think in more theoretical and abstract terms. Some of the stuff I most enjoyed writing received the least attention of my writing. I haven’t had a chance to look around here that much yet (posted my first comment running out the door for work this morning and this is the first thread I’ve read upon coming home), but it seems like the folks I was able to have the most interesting conversations with, from whom I learned the most, and who really challenged me over there are also over here. I’m excited to see that.
I’m saddened by all of this. Sometimes, I become a man-hating feminist. Looking forward to seeing what happens here.
j
What’s “dead chuffed”? I got an idea from the context, but I’ve never heard that expression before.
British usage, no? Or Canadian? It’s a great expression.
It’s one of those maddening Britishisms that can mean different things depending on what part of the country you say it in (IIRC, it can mean either “happy” or “angry”, depending on the geographical location of the speaker).
I stopped reading here a while back because it wasn’t exciting enough (not enough people), but if you’re posting here I’m going to have to come back. And are you still posting at CultureKitchen, the ONLY site I’ve seen that sings the praises of liberal homeschoolers (of which I was one)?
I’m addicted to your diaries and will read them wherever I can find them. My girlfriend says you’re a very wise woman, and as she is a very wise woman too, I’m inclined to agree wih her.
In other news, I’m preparing a pro-Women Kossacks piece over at Schweitzer for President.
here.
Lorraine and I post with Liza at CultureKitchen.
And pre-war Booman Tribune member.
But I have to say, the handles (and ex-handles) of the commentors on this diary read like a list of my all-time favorite Kossacks.
This is reading like the internet version of Lysistrata! Luckily I signed on just before the “pie” controversy, and since many of my favorite Kos posters are here regularly, I’ll be checking in much more frequently.
I missed that weekend’s debate, but I see it as primarily a male maturity issue, as opposed to a male versus female issue. It was especially ill-advised for Kos to sound off about “women’s studies” mere days after polling to see how bad the gender gap on his creation had become. Those informal numbers were ugly. I don’t imagine the race breakdown would be that much better from a progressive viewpoint. Maybe I’m wrong about that.
I’ve been dipping toes in here for a while now, looks like it’s time to get my ass wet, as my old acting teacher used to say.
The pie fight ad did catch my eye because it was so out of place on the site. I don’t normally worry about what other women want to do with their time, whether it’s going to church, sewing, dressing up like a little girl and play fighting… Those are things I personally would never do but I believe a woman can make their own choices. However, it belongs in a certain place. I am one of those women who actually enjoys reading Playboy – and yes I read it but I do look at the pictures, too. I bought a subscription for my husband as an anniversary gift, it doesn’t bother me in the slightest because we talk about what’s in it, together. That doesn’t mean that I can’t understand why some people would not approve of it, and I can respect that.
What I can not tolerate, however, was the reaction by some of the commenters and yes kos. I saw things like “Get a life and get laid” and “you have no sense of humor” and “you’re just being a prude” and “you’re acting just like republican moralists” etc. That is unacceptable. Seeing people rate that up is unacceptable. Laughing at others concerns – unacceptable. Calling people stupid for being offended – unacceptable. I know why this bugs me so much, because it reminds me of the elections.
These are the same types of dismissals that all progressives were handed by the media and republicans. How are their insults any different than: You’re not patriotic because you’re against the war, Shut up and support the president because we’re at WAR, You’re either with or against us…?
I’m 27 year old female, I’ve never taken a women’s history or women’s study class, but I’m a woman and I think I know what I find offensive.
Hear, hear.
Honest disagreement is one thing.
Dismissing anyone’s opinion (especially with a sarcastic or sexist smackdown) is cowardly, ignorant, or both.
(Come on, spell checker, surely smackdown is a word?)
(BTW, I’m a male and not a great fan of Playboy-type photography/models post-1975 or so, too “plastic-y” for my taste. But to each their own.)
Just checking in, Folks! I’m so happy to see some of my favorites here.
You will find BooMan Tribune to be a far more civil place. I have been posting here from the beginning. Much of what I post on Kos, I also post here.
I am not sure about my future on Kos. I think Kos’ comments were condescending and abusive. Calling people he disagrees with on the pie issues “extremist” was the shocker for me. Isn’t that a term we reserve for violent hate criminals like Eric Rudolph? Hmm. And I agree that the culture on Kos has deteriorated.
As some of you know, pastordan, mataliandy, troutfishing and I and others are starting a new, scoop-based site called Talk to Action. You will be welcome there too. Pastordan is writing the community guidelines, and they will be enforced, unlike the daily kos. Our focus will be about fighting the theocratic Christian Right. And certainly all issues related to reproductive rights will be on topic. We’ll let you know when we are ready to launch.
Yet another person whose work I enjoy the most…it feels like a diaspora of Kos’s best writers.
the recipes from today’s diaries? I was so damned busy I didn’t get a chance to copy them down. lol
They sounded good on the pass through – I even have a great recipe that is about 50 yrs old for lemon custard.
Trying to get my sense of humor back….and I do have a sweet tooth!
This is good news. I am a “refugee” in the sense of seeking alternatives to DKos not as “instead” but as “also”. And oddly enough it wasn’t just the pile-on over the pie, it was the cumulative effect of an earlier pile-on over choice, and several even earlier pile-on’s over faith. If I’m going to get called names over being a female and having concerns that many other females share; AND I’m going to get called names over respecting people of faith (many of whom are not wing-nuts); well it seemed time to look around for other places to spend some time.
Look forward to hearing when you guys launch.
Wel, we look forward to your participation. Here is the site of our temporary blog where we are writing and working out the bugs. Feel free to comment.
http://talk2action.blogspot.com/
the scoop based site is coming soon! I am recruiting some excellent prochoice writers and thinkers to be either front pagers or regular guests. No one has ever done anything like it — it will be very exciting and great fun.
I think those of us who are organizing this are very much on the same page. Choice and gay rights are not up for debate. People who share our concerns about the Christian Right may participate — as long as they understand what the site is about. Theism vs. atheism is off topic. period. We will respect people’s faith, including that of the people we oppose. We oppose labeling and false characterizations.
and I won’t be going back to Kos, except to finish some unfinished (friendly!) business with a couple of posters.
I am so sick and tired of the dominant misogyny over there, and Kos’s post is the last straw. I will miss many of the very enlightened men who post there, but then, they will understand why so many women will say ‘enough’ and leave.
I find it particularly distressing to see posters like Plutonium Page who I admire greatly, not get it. I can only assume it’s an age thing – I’m 30, and I know if I hadn’t been led and prodded to go read my herstory, it could be me ‘not getting it’.
Anyone else feel like we need to revive consciousness-raising, bigtime?
for the Willow quote alone. And now for Buffy’s immortal question: Where do we go from here?
hey thanks <g>
Now I’d better go back and fix the spelling, lol – signed up in a (furious) hurry.
Where to from here? Love to talk about that, but right now I’m off for some mindless and probably benignly offensive entertainment in the form of ‘Mr and Mrs Smith’ – angelina, rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrow.
yours in shallowness until later
A Buffy fan shallow? Never! How was the movie?
posted under my partner’s handle by mistake there.
The movie was actually pretty fun – as long as you ignore the whole “we’re assassins and murder people for a living” bit. Brad has good comic timing and angelina had me having to pick my jaw up off the floor in a most unseemly fashion for most of the length.
Overall much better written than I thought it was going to be.
now I really must go fix my sig.
It’s so good to see what feels in many ways like the cream of Kos here. OTOH I’m sad to see what’s going on over there; I hope some equilibrium is restored soon. What really troubles me is the feeling that any feminist (I deliberately don’t say ‘woman’) who goes back there to try and sort this out is going to be met with more vitriol, not constructive & honest attempts to mend the bridge.
Myriad, I am fifty-one, and I cannot see how any one else cannot just get it.
Glad to see you, glad to see all of you: MaryScott, Lorraine, Sneaky Snu, etc., et al.
Love your sig and definitely relate.
I’m a DK refugee myself, but wanted to welcome you. There seems to be a tradition ’round these parts of individual acknowledgment, and the welcome wagon has been inundated these last couple of days. I’ve taken it upon myself to hunt down other newbies that may have missed the champagne party and say ‘hi’ on behalf of diane101 and shirlstars.
I hope you’ll find yourself pleasantly surprised by the attitude around here – I know I have.
I’m not leaving dKos ’cause I already knew that I didn’t agree with Markos about a million things, and I too much enjoy being a cheery irritant (I’m a Green, after all).
But I’ll be over here, too. In part ’cause I wouldn’t want to miss Lorraine’s diaries. Thanks for another terrific one, L!
This whole pie thing, it really brings home the root of politics for me — politics is about remaking the world to suit your desired view of the world.
Its why Dobson’s crowd votes “against their interests” so much, they are voting to make “The perfect Christian Nation”, and willing to sacrifice everything else (well, to the extent they recognize the sacrifice) to achieve it.
Its a bit of a disappointment (but not a surprise) that there are “progressive” men (and more than a couple women) over at dKos who want everyone to support their priorities, and to just shut up about things that don’t personally interest them. But the way Markos handled it was more than simply “disappointing”. It was incredibly poor leadership from a man who seems to pride himself on being hands-off. So its doubly-confusing when he steps into it with both feet and proceeds to proudly kick it around. And his ‘apology’ was akin to apologizing for not wiping his feet when he was done. Sheesh.
I really can’t understand the people over there who honestly think you Lorraine (and others) should just stay there and put up with such disrespect because leaving hurts them or dailykos. There are more ways to support democratic/progressive ideals than driving up Markos’ page traffic. Its just bizarre. I guess that’s like the Conservatives pleading with the Moderate Republicans to just hang tight and vote as a single bloc for Conservate principles, you know, to be a strong party. Er, nevermind they won’t get to share any of that strength unless the Conservatives want them to have it…
Anyhow, I’ve been a (quiet) member of Booman Tribune for a long time. But it seems the time has come for me to make it my new homepage.
Looking forward to seeing everyone here! (new and old alike)
I never saw the pie-ad war either. But my back went STRAIGHT UP when I saw the “women’s studies” quote. And it only got worse when that was struck and replaced with “sanctimonious.”
I’ve been struck for quite some time with the fact that women’s issues just aren’t a priority at Kos, or to Kos, and that’s fair, that’s his perogative, it just so happens that women’s issues are a priority for me. More than once I was provoked to spitting rage over “big tent” language that to me always seemed to translate into “why don’t you girls all just shut up and make me a sandwich.”
I really look forward to participating in a community that will hopefully be a bit more actively supportive of women and women’s issues. Thanks for the excellent diary.
I wish I could say I was angry at the pie ad, but honestly I wasn’t. I was and am still angry (or actually, maybe disappointed is a better word) at both the response to the concerns expressed and the total inability of some posters to see it as anything but an opportunity to play one-upmanship with the snarky comments.
I write erotica (for fun and profit! okay, not so much profit.) I like porn from time to time. I’m perfectly capable of ignoring what I don’t like…I’m also perfectly capable of seeing that there are places and times to do what I want how I want, and places and times where it is not appropriate.
But in truth, kos’s front page diary on it didn’t surprise me or really offend me that much — I’m not that invested in Markos’s personal opinions regardless of who he is or what dkos is. But if I’m going to put my time and money and effort into something, be it a campaign, a candidate, or a political blog, I’d expect them to be at least civil to their contributors.
Hmmm. Well. I guess I’m angrier than I thought.
but is this off everyone’s radar? Was there a resolution?
Soj’s “Love in Romania” Gig
It was removed because the website referred to is a seedy dating agency, probably connected to prostitution and attendant criminal behaviour. In Romania this means slavery. If you don’t believe me google for moldova and slavery and discover that women are a commodity in Europe today. 1 in 10 Moldovan women have been sold into slavery..NOW!!!!!TODAY!!!
Soj put up a comment this morning in defense of her diary and website. She was the one that took it down. She was not happy about some of the comments. I think with the influx of new people that are not familiar with her just got the wrong Idea…I don’t believe for a second that this is or has anything to do with prostitution/slavery and she confirmed it and screens every person who signs up. People just took it the wrong way. Seems like a Match.com type of thing or a matchmaker service. I hope she comes back and stays around she is one of my favorites. I love her diaries. I am also sad it was deleted because she put a lot of herself and her past into that diary.
But since this diary is getting so big with no signs of letting up, maybe you should post a part 2 diary. Seems like we want to talk about the gender issue.
Great job Lorraine.
I’ve never done anything more than lurk at dKos, and I won’t be doing that any more. His page count will have to go up without my little mite.
I’m fifty. I’m a feminist. I have daughters and grand-daughters. I’m a progressive bleeding heart liberal. I have free time and disposable income.
And if the stalwart Dems over at dkos want my time, my energy, my money or my ideas then they can bloody well treat me like a rational human being. I don’t debate high ideals with cat-calling boys on street corners and I see no reason to do it on-line.
I’m done with big tents that only have room for women on the fringes. I’m too old, too tired and too cynical to believe that this time the nice men mean it when they say they’ll get right on the womens’ issues as soon as this other really important thing is dealt with. Abigail Adams got told that too, and the women of Seneca Falls. Hell, I got told that during the marches against the VietNam War myself.
So it looks like you folks are stuck with me.
Here is the link to Part 2 of this important discussion. Lorraine can be found there, she’s having trouble opening up this thread since it’s so long.
You know, I just love seeing the female bonding that’s going on here. I’m just going to stand in the corner and watch. Nice to see that people have found a home here.
I too have made the jump. I didn’t post much at Kos, but it felt like home to me. I certainly was taken back when a place where I’d come to expect to be able to relax a bit suddenly felt actively unsafe. Jesus, don’t we get attacked enough by the republicans? Anyway, the entire experience felt way too much like being patted on the head and being told to run along and not bother the grown ups and let them deal with the real issues, so here I am. I’m glad to recognize so many familiar screen names.
Thank you for posting this. I’ve come to this site several times to read, but never signed up. Seeing your post and all the responses made me finally decide to register here.
I’m glad you’ve found your way here and decided to join. There is a bit of a late night champagne welcome party still going on in the Welcome Wagon diary if you’re still awake and hanging around. I myself just fled DK and wandered over here a couple of days ago – phew, the peace and support has been amazing, and most of my fav’s are already here.
Anyway, just wanted to say hi.
I’m so glad to see you Lorraine! I was getting a little lonely over at Kos.
🙂 honestly. those are the first words that came to my mind. 🙂
I jumped into markos’s little pile of crap early on in the evening sunday.
I had the feeling it would be a big one –
And christ.
His lame update only made it worse.
But I still wasn’t prepared for all the vitriol from the angry white males.
And I’ve had it with hearing “x is going on, and we talk about pie fights”.
It jumped the shark officially today.
Lord of The Flies.
Let them play.
Christine
You are so right about gender being the linchpin of social and political thought. And anyone who disagrees is not thinking very deeply, nor can any progressive political movement ignore it without courting failure.
The insidious thing about sexism is that it is “naturalized”: that is, made to seem a natural component of male/female relationships. Take, for instance, the role of gender in Conrad’s Heart of Darkness. Chinua Achebe famously dissed Conrad’s “bloody racism,” and legions of critics have counterargued that Conrad was in fact criticizing the racism of Europe’s master colonial narrative. But embedded in that novel, as immovable as boulders in the middle of a stream, are a series of appalling portraits of women: as angels, whores, servants, silent witnesses, primordial goddesses — you name it. And that’s why Conrad’s critique of racism fails: because it can’t even recognize (or “de-naturalize”) the systems of oppression that continue to inform imperial culture at its bedrock level.
If we can’t get gender into the conversation about Iraq, the media, the future of the Democratic party, the US economy, the role of religion in culture, then we will never address the bedrock issues that will ultimately undermine our efforts.
NB: Shame on Markos! But he’s a bright guy, and he will choose to become more informed on these issues. . . or not.
I have not been online for about two weeks so I missed most of this brou-ha-ha (brou-ha-ha?) at Kos. I have still been reading there, but came over here to see how many people have migrated over. I am not ready to quit kos but will definitely keep my eyes on this site as well. I have posted a bit at kos, but not regularly.
These fights remind me a bit of the 60s when the women’s movement and the Black Panthers were trying to join forces…the Black Panthers basically said “go away girls, we have serious business here”. Then things got so factionalized everything fell apart.