I was hoping that Armando would come by and try to heal the rift, not between this site and dKos (no such rift exists) but between dKos and many of you who have come here in recent days.
So far, it’s not working. So, here is what I propose. Anyone who has any constructive advice about how online activist communities can be more sensitive to women’s issues, or about what you would like to see done to heal this rift, post it below.
Try to not rehash your list of grievances. Try to offer solutions, and a positive way forward.
tell them to STFU.
I think the word is R-E-S-P-E-C-T.
I try to conduct mysefl online the way I would FTF. I can’t think of where the appropriate response a person sitting in the same room with me is “shut the fuck up”.
Even my six year old knows that telling someone to shut up is “not very nice”.
Supporting the community is the usually the most efficient way to get it.
And more importantly,
keeping it.
Then there’s the Bolton Method of Management…
I try to conduct myself the same way in both places as well. However, for some reason people think I’m funnier online and more handsome FTF. It pretty mutch scuttles any real dialogue I might ever have.
I think having women as front-page authors can ensure we don’t only hear a man’s perspective on things. (I’ve long admired susanhu’s writing, and seeing her here was a big draw for me, for example.)
Stating that the site has a goal of gender parity among its participants could by itself go a long way.
Having a “golden rule” be top of the site FAQ at least provides legalistic grounds to call out those who are being insensitive.
But I don’t know overall–this is hard. I think it boils down to a perception of overall culture, which is highly ephemeral and difficult to control, even if you wanted to. BooMan feels very welcoming, in a sincere way, so whatever you’ve done here works.
I mentioned in a comment last night, welcoming someone here, that while mcjoan’s diary last night over on kos showed that there are strong, clear, constructive voices that offer some hope for a way of some of the difficulties on kos, I pointed out that things are different here. BooMan Tribune has never had had those kinds of conversations and healings. They have never been needed.
Ah, but that’s only because Booman is still in its infancy, Fred.
The potential for conflict grows the more people we have posting. It’s only a matter of time before something like this erupts over here.
I’ll take that as a positive sign, as well, when the time comes.
We did have a very short-lived problem. Someone posted a front-page comment that offended some women here who spoke up about it. The comment was immediately removed by BooMan, with apologies.
It was the PERFECT way to handle it. Swift. Sympathetic. Responsive, with a verbal acknowledgement and apology.
And the issue died right there. With no lingering resentment.
Textbook “how-to.” BooMan is the best.
Very nice.
I wish I could’ve seen it.
People and communities already KNOW what the solution is. The steps described seem like a common-sense approach to solving issues like this.
The question is, why is the above approach not always INTUITIVELY taken?
I was unaware of the controversy, Susan, and I quite agree with you that simply deleting something which is needlessly inflammatory is the best policy.
Booman is our editor, if you will. He has the right to spike any post that isn’t up to snuff. This doesn’t mean the author can’t submit a more thoughtful piece at a later time.
Hey, it might even force all of us to be better writers.
If we are thinking of the same incident, it was Booman himself who posted a diary with a feminine pejorative in the title, and within minutes several us us voiced objections, Mr. Booman came on and said he was sorry and deleted/changed it immediately.
That was excellent and we did not need a whole diary of complaints to do this. That’s how we are here and that is one of the many things that makes us special.
Most on this site were not even aware of what happened.
We were respected and listened to and have been ever since.
It is the same incident. But look what you just did! You outted him! Oh, the horrors … how dare you. (just being silly.)
Seriously, it was a great experience to observe. We saw the BooMan tested, and he rose to the test.
Oh: One more thing. I’ve changed my mind! I no longer think that Armando should be nominated for U.S. Ambassador to the U.N.
susanhu — just wanted to let you know that your work is so amazing that i will go anywhere to read your posts. so although i didn’t pay much attention to the pie fight, when i heard it was enough to have you post exclusively over here, i quickly made my way over as well (not to say i didn’t have issues with the testosterone level at dkos anyway).
BTW, i don’t think i can do the editorial stuff i volunteered for. it seems like it’s more work than i have the time for.
Me too.
It may be in part because BT is young It is certainly still in its formative stages — but a culture has been fairly well established. Its up to us to sustain it. As has been pointed out on several diaries in the past 24 hours that I have seen, people just arriving should not make assumptions about people here. Listen, learn, stick around. Its not the Daily Kos and does not seek to become the Daily Kos — a place I have not left, BTW.
You state:
but yet, it is a “child”, if you will, of dailykos, has the same architecture, people, issues, pretty much everything. I wasn’t there, but I would imagine this is very very close to DailyKos around 2 years ago (I started read it about a year and a half ago).
So is the overwhelming issue we are talking about here merely size? Or can someone explain to me how, fundamentally, Booman Tribune differs from Daily Kos?
I’ve heard a lot about tone and respect. Is that mainly in reference to the head on the top of the monster(Kos vs. Booman) or the posters? Because the difference in the posters can mainly be attributed to this being, mostly, a like-thinking subset of Daily Kos readers. In which case all that has happen is people retreated here in search of a crowd that agrees with them. I don’t think that is going to last, in the long run.
What I mean is, there is fundamentally different between Booman Tribune and Daily Kos except roughly 2 years of age. If this site continues to grow, in a couple years when Booman says something stupid, which he himself has stated he is perfectly capable of, do people run off again in search of some place smaller?
Or is the mentality that something fundamental is flawed at DailyKos, and it can be prevented here?
I’m really curious and I’m trying to ask this separate of any pie fighting or whatever. Just trying to get to the bottom of what the issues with Daily Kos are.
Well, I don’t think its the size, although I agree that as BT grows, the influx could change the existing culture.
I don’t think there is any one simple answer to your question. Reality is too complicated for that, and none of us has handle on the whole thing. That said, I think there are a few differences that I think are contributing factors, although I am sure there are more.
BT has set out a more explicitly progressive values, and internationalist culture. Those who have come here overlap significantly with the daily kos, but the culture is different. The topics overlap, but the nature of the converation is different. It is less about launching specific political projects aimed at influencing heat of the moment political matters in DC and in the states, although there is some of that.
But let me caution one thing. The problems of Dkos cannot be figured out here, and should not be, in my view. BT has its own identity, and in light of recent events it may evolve, will certainly continue to evolve over time. But it can easily be overwhelmed by getting too involved in the by-its-very-nature-contentiousness of the daily kos.
The tone and example is set at the top. I think you’re right on the money with that comment.
I read DK for about 2 years. I noticed a big change last winter, when a lot of the front-page posters left to start The Next Hurrah (if you haven’t seen it, please check it out). A new front-page poster appeared, a poster whose online personae is combative and dismissive and unpleasant. I think that a lot of people take their cues from the front page people, and I noticed that the tone started deteriorating around then. It’s just gotten worse over time.
I don’t have any problem with venting, but I think there’s a problem when people start venting at each other. Just because we all hide behind keyboards doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t respect each other’s views and try to express our own in a civil manner. Sometimes I think people forget that.
As a small suggestion, if stories/diaries are categorized (I can’t find this anywhere, but I might be missing something really obvious), a category for women-oriented topics might be helpful. I know there’s a better term than women-oriented, but it’s just not coming to me right now! Also, simply including front-page stuff by and about women is much appreciated.
The front pager after the Next Hurrah had good intentions, but addresses some commenters by name, while ignoring others. It got insular. Comments started to veer off topic more.
As for diary categories, I think being able to “tag” diaries might be a good solution. That way one diary on “women” and the “environment” issues can be correctly categorized. See the photo site flickr for an example of tags. http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/ . But I have no time to rewrite the software, so I will leave it at that.
One final note: now that the former front page diarists are gone from dkos, I see how exceptional they were. And are.
Just like everything else, it makes a huge difference who’s at the top.
I think you’re absolutely right, ubikkibu, that this is about overall culture.
The problem is that “real world” politics, at least as practiced at high levels within the two major parties (and, I gotta admit, even at times within my minor party, though I believe we are more self-critical about this) is often simultaneously macho and infantile. See, for example, The War Room. Or look at someone like John Bolton, whose personally type is still blessedly unusual in diplomatic circles, but all too common on campaigns. I was a very junior staffer in 1987-88 for the national office of the Dukakis campaign, and let me tell you, that office was full of “kiss up, kick down” types.
I firmly believe that this kind of campaign behavior eventually becomes reflected in the way we’re governed, that it’s not just the price of doing business, that it ends up imbuing politics with a pervasive cynicism that was as clear (if a little less poisonous) in the Clinton adminstration as its been in the Bush administration.
When you have a site like dKos that in many ways is dedicated to the fairly traditional pursuit of major party politics (even if its using new technologies to do so), it’s all too easy to see such macho/infantile behavior as not only not a problem, but at a certain level a sign of one’s seriousness. This is, I believe, a fundamental mistake. Remaking politics needs to be about remaking politics, not simply winning rather than losing.
So I think that the uglier side of the culture of dKos (and it is only one side of the culture of dKos) actually reflects much larger problems in the way we conduct politics in this country. But solving those problems will be very hard. Heck, even admitting they exist is fairly difficult.
I was over at kos for a little under a year before I defected and came over here because of the “pie wars.” I did find the ad offensive and was happy that, over the weekend, people posted about it and discussed it. I assumed that Monday he would post something along the lines of, “I didn’t realize the ad was so offensive to some of my community members. I’m not really clear on why, but now that I read the comments I realize that it is not the right kind of ad for this site” or something along the lines. What upset me so was his response–it not only dismissed and invalidated our feelings, it was insulting as well. So I guess my solution would be when something like this does come up (and it will here, as others have said) and some are clearly offended to take their claims seriously and not tell them they are having a “knee-jerk” reaction. Perhaps an open thread/diary discussing it. Of course you can’t have all of the people happy all the time and not every offending object can be removed but at the same time, people can feel heard and validated and not dismissed. That goes a long way (can you tell I’m a therapist??) 🙂
Sticking my neck out here…with my perceptions as to efforts that might work.
1. Silence is deafening.
One of the ways for this to be addressed is to have Markos write a diary on what his perspective is on “women’s issues”.
2. Delineation of the goals of DailyKos.
Since that is what the rift is about. Too many of us feel that the site was trying to become a democrat echo chamber with one voice.
Will it make a difference for many of us? Maybe / maybe not.
Will it stop the implosion of a very strong web political voice? No because that has been happening on its own since November.
1. Silence is deafening.
One of the ways for this to be addressed is to have Markos write a diary on what his perspective is on “women’s issues”.
I think the only way for kos to win back the trust of many of us is to improve his performance on these issues consistently and in the long run. At this point, the kind of diary you suggest is likely to be either unconvincing or not sufficiently credible. And it will merely further fan the flames. Under the circumstances, I think silence is the best we can do in the short run.
2. Delineation of the goals of DailyKos.
Since that is what the rift is about. Too many of us feel that the site was trying to become a democrat echo chamber with one voice.
I think kos has made abundantly clear his positions on these things. He sees the site as entirely about Democratic Party politics. But he also runs the site with a very light touch, allowing many voices to be heard (even if he sometimes treats them with disrespect in his postings). I disagree with kos about what the site should be, but am very greatful that he does let dissenting opinions flourish.
I for one am plenty pissed off at kos, but I’m not leaving dKos. However, I’m very glad that this place also exists.
Thanks, Booman. You’re the best.
Okay. I don’t want to see us splinter. I’m actually hoping that we will be stronger along the patched-up fault lines. I hope for reconciliation.
Here’s what I’d say. Please don’t think that certain issues are simply “women’s” issues. Please understand that if it affects women, eventually, if you’re a man, it’s going to affect you, too. And vice versa. Please do some reading about gender and power. Please understand the various ways that power operates in our societies.
Next, if someone says to you, “what you are doing is hurting me” The proper response is not “quit being such a whiner baby.” It’s, “Okay. I’m not sure why I’m hurting you, so please give me more information,” or “I’m sorry. I was being an ass.” Or, “Can we talk about this because I think you’re misinterpreting me.” These are basic precepts of communication.
If we are going to be a big tent, we have got to stop ghettoizing certain parts of us. If we are about human rights, that’s human rights, not “what men think are important.” No. Everyone doesn’t get to be equally represented sometimes. That’s what consensus is about. But, you don’t look around, find your most vulnerable members and offer to toss them overboard in order to attract more people.
“What you are doing” as opposed to “You”.
Well phrased.
Thank you lorraine, that is a beautiful way to look at things.
I get a little uncomfortable with the term “women’s issues”, not because I’m a guy or I’m afraid to talk about them, but because the issues don’t affect only women. It’s just that a lot of men don’t understand how much men are affected by these issues, or that they’re worth fighting for, or they think they should control them (e.g. guys who think they can tell a woman what she can do with her body). These are human issues, civil rights issues; calling them women’s issues is like calling racism an ‘african american issue’ or ‘latin american’ issue. It’s a societal issue. By diminishing, taking away, or disrespecting the rights of anyone, we’re really diminishing the rights of everyone.
I agree!
Anything that has been labeled “women’s issues” tends to be family issues, and we are all in families so everyone is affected.
Spoke to my husband about the “pie fight” and he feels pretty much the same way that I do and several others… it’s not just an ad… it’s the attitude that was protrayed.
The whole “stfu” and the name-calling that spewed forth so… easily.
Excellent, excellent comment.
However, not everyone knows the basics of communication. And we have to be willing to teach this – by setting the example (easier part) – and not allowing ourselves to respond to the insult (very hard for me) but redirect the dialog back to an exchange of information/opinions.
I thank Booman for the tone he is setting for this site. Greater diplomacy and respect I can’t imagine.
And thanks to Susan Hu for her responses to Armando- very much appreciated.
I like this approach to an extent…
..BUT some of these responses seem to require a certain amount of justification to make the requestor’s position valid, which I don’t necessarily agree with.
I agree. Simple respect would have done the trick.
From a DKos lurker who has just registered here at Booman today. Hoping for more respect here.
Welcome, funky! I hope we hear a lot from you!
Simple respect. You’re right. That’s really what’s needed. And the recognition that that’s what is needed.
And no more about plots against Kos’s site or whatever that was. There might be a few who’d like to bring Kos down, but I am sure that the vast majority of us want Kos to succeed!
P.S. I still think that ad should go down. It’s not classy. I doubt any top-notch news site would use an ad like that.
Yes, ugh, re the conspiracy theorists; may they get off their grassy knoll — or at least keep it at Kos, if it brings perverse paranoiac comfort, but not bring it here. And since no one filled me on the conspiracy, that makes me an unwitting dupe by being here? Or does that just make me paranoid, too. . . .
(I hope that gave you a laugh, Susan, with all you’re going through. I am so sorry to hear of it.)
Anyway, I agree with so much constructive work above. To it, I would add only (for now; I’m thinking, I’m thinking) that as the pile-on high-fiving behavior against some women and/or “women’s issues” was a big part of the problematic, hostile environment at DKos — BEFORE as well as after the recent upheavals — it would be useful to see Kos not legimitize that behavior but criticize it on the front page as much (or more, but I dream) as he went after “women groups,” “pet issues,” the “sanctimonious women’s studies set,” etc., etc.
There also been much discussion there, apparently much ado about nothing for all that has been done, about means of removing hostile or just bad diaries as happens to such posts — some such posts, but nowhere near enough of them to further constructive discussion.
Is this seriously being bandied about?
If so, I think an investigation is warranted.
First find out why the ad was placed, then find out who the people were who were most offended by the ad. Check out their history of comments and activities. Maybe the smoking gun is there.
Then find out who held the gun to Kos’s head to post such an nasty response to the nastiness that was thrown his way.
Oh wait, this could have ended right there.
A measured response instead of an angry response. Then the catcalls and nastiness would have been quashed before it got beyond the few who were spewing nastiness towards Kos and the nastiness that Kos spewed back; which unfortunately ended up sweeping many others into fracas – on both sides. Had Kos not responded on the front page I wouldn’t have known. His post is the first I’ve heard of it.
Here’s how I would deal:
Delete every comment dripping with hatred-they are pretty easy to spot.
Ban any member who continues to spew hatred or continually disrupts the community.
Tell arriving members (who should be asked to read the rules and to click that they have read such rules – not a sure thing, but better than jumping in blind) that disrespect towards ANY PERSON on your site will not be tolerated. I’m not talking about censorship, I’m talking about common courtesy. And follow through with bannings when appropriate.
I’m ranting OT, but last night I came across a post in a non-pie diary that made me realize that the only way to deal with this crap is to give members the choice to ignore posters who have proved over and over to be word menaces.
The post in question was a response to a comment that another person refuted with quotes. In addition to bragging about taking down another diarist and troll-rating the response, the comment was essentially “nyah, nyah, you’re an idiot – I got my fingers in my ears and I can’t hear you”. Idiotic.
Frankly, I decided right then and there that I never need to read another word from that Kossack. If only I could press a button so that I would never have to come across their screen name again. Hell, I’d even pay for the privilege. It would be worth $20 a year to me to have the ability to not to stumble across the words of jerks in otherwise intelligent discourse.
I don’t give a damn about how passionate a person is about something, simple courtesy and constructive arguments are much more interesting and educational to read. If I want to read (intelligent or not) idiots gratuitously outsnarking and insulting anything and anyone they disagree with, I can go elsewhere.
The simple rule should be: Would you say that if the person were a stranger or a friend sitting across from you in a restaurant? If not, don’t take the coward’s way out and do it here just because you can without looking that person in the eye.
You can’t force assh+les to be polite, but you can ban them and erase their hate and ignorant language from the screen. The day I have to power to ignore their posts with the click of a button will be a day to celebrate.
There is no grand conspiracy (and no proof of one). DK has increased in size (double since I signed on) so the fallout from the rifts have grown.
However, I do believe there are a few people over at DK gleefully taking advantage of this rift. I doubt there is an agenda. What it is are a few who thrive on the discord and do all they can to further it and keep it alive. Just like Republicans they seem to derive some kind of perverse satisfaction from it.
Agreed, respect, conveyed as a groundrule through a clear, direct statement by Markos.
Still shaking my head that you thought Armando could “heal a rift”.
IMO, it’s best to just let it go. People will post where they want to post as it suits their needs.
This reminds me of some points I and others tried to make there and here — that it is not women’s task to “improve” men, when we have enough work to do improving ourselves. We saw pleas that women are such a “civilizing force,” such 19th-century thinking in the 21st century. . . . (Just try to put MaryScott in that paradigm!)
Well, your message also reminds me of the saying by Mae West, as I recall — that time wounds all heels.:-)
I’ve never agreed that to have a discussion of women’s issues you also have to talk about men’s issues. It’s good if you can do so, but women’s issues are valid in and of themselves without having to be dependent on how they relate to men’s issues.
First of all we need people on both sides to calm down, otherwise whatever great suggestions we might have will fall on deaf ears.
Secondly, we need to stop the recriminations on both sides, that just raises hackles and people get defensive.
Once that had happened we need to start talking and really listening. We need to get issues out on the table honestly and without the fear of getting slammed for having an opinion, popular or otherwise. We need to feel that while some may not like our opinion, we have the right to express it and respect that. Not be told to go elsewhere or to STFU.
I’m not sure how to get people to calm down. Emotions are too high right now for people to step back and objectively look at what has happened. Maybe time will help.
I so agree mlk….
I thought that it was calmer early this morning as the refugees here tried to work through the issues. Then I leave for a 2 hour meeting and come back find Armando’s post. And the outrage flared again.
Perhaps in the interest of calm the key players and front pagers can agree to stay out of the other’s space for a few days or a week. Let the dust settle…
Reconciliation may or may not be possible but extraordinary diaries in defense of either side on “opposition” web sites is not healthy to the debate.
Maybe there needs to be a session at YearlyKos about “womens issues” and how they aren’t just women’s issues, but human rights issues.
Granted, that isn’t for another year, but hopefully by then we’d all have calmed down and would listen with an open mind.
Not sure.
Kos has made it clear that women’s issues are not what his site is about (along with a host of other issues). Not sure if it would be a dialogue worth having in that environment and in that context.
Everyone take a deep breath, count to about 100,000 and ask themselves what they’re trying to achieve? Angry words very seldom get you anywhere, especially on the Internet.
Look, I’ve been around the Net since 1988. I’ve seen this happen on news groups, on mailing lists, on discussion forums. I’ve been involved more times than I should have been. No-one ever gains from it. No minds are ever changed by it. No good ever comes of it. This fight is being fought at least partially for its own sake now, and in the heat of battle damage is being done to the underlying causes people believe in, to the communities that are being dragged into the fight and to the people involved in the fight.
If you want to changes minds or hearts in a positive way, the midst of a flamewar is not the place.
Who wants to fight? I don’t particularly want to heal either. I appreciate the dialectic.
To me what’s happening here is a demonstration that content, creativity and work can matter more than control of the means of production.
For many reasons, people got fed up with trying to negotiate the scene at dKos. They were able to take their skills and immediately find a new platform and (almost seamlessly) continue to get their writing to their audience. And their audience was able to follow them.
People matter more than things.
This is a continuation and a deepening of something that became apparent during the struggle over Pacifica. At that network, the management tried to keep control by restricting access to the satllite. Instead, a group of reporters formed their own collective and distributed their stories to affiliate stations over the internet. It was the demise of Pacifica management and the basis for the workers and listeners at the stations getting back their control.
What happened between these two blogs allowed the community to re-form itself with a minimum of pain (not that it isn’t painful for some) to the larger community.
That’s something hopeful.
As I said in a comment over at Kos, some women I know would be offended by the ad and others wouldn’t. Does this mean that those who aren’t offended aren’t good feminists? I certainly don’t think so.
I also think that what we’re experiencing here are the same types of issues that occur on every major newspaper in the country, every single day, that is, the conflict between content and advertising. How many stories are killed because an advertiser didn’t want the story to run? How many reporters are left to twist in the wind by timid editors who don’t want to step on the toes of upper management? I suggest everyone who is complaining about DailyKos’s advertising spend the evening watching Network for a little perspective on which skirmishes are really worth fighting and which aren’t.
Yet I can’t help but see a very positive side to this whole thing. These are growing pains, folks. The same growing pains any new form of media went through during its inception.
The fact that we are engaged in this discussion tells me that the blogosphere has truly arrived.
by Kos’ reaction than I was to the ad — I could tell that it was going to be a dumb ad so decided not to waste the bandwidth.
Telling those you disagree with to shut up and get over it sounds like what the Rightist Repugs are telling the moderates. I always thought we were better than that. But I guess “respect” is just in the same category as “political correctness”…only good for wusses.
‘Nuff said…
I think you make a valid point.
There’s been a great deal of ego oozing from the Kos posts, lately. I’m beginning to think he actually believes the good ink he’s getting. It’s not that he doesn’t deserve the praise, at least on certain levels, but rather that showing a little humility never hurts.
Let’s hope he gets over himself, and doesn’t turn into another smug pundit.
Exactly. What kos does with his site is completely his business, but his reactions infuriated me. I felt like I was being told to go back to the kitchen.
I’m always amazed when people forget why they’ve become well known, and just become obnoxious.
I wish I could give you 10 4’s instead of just one.
There is a separation between news and advertising in any reputable newspaper office. One does not influence the other. News people go to great lengths to retain that separation.
The advertising office, in turn, has a list of standards that any ad must meet. Most refer to libel, but “good taste” is among them. The saying is, “This is a family newspaper.”
So right out of the gate, you will not see ads approaching the offensive potential of the ad on dKos in a “family” newspaper.
But it does not have to do with discussions between news and advertising. That does not happen. When politicians, business people, whomever, threaten to pull advertising, well, go right ahead. That is a tradition in the newspaper business — the refusal to let advertising influence the news pages.
What’s that small newspaper just outside of Crawford, TX, that’s had its advertising pulled and subscriptions dropped because it supported Kerry, not Bush? I believe it’s still publishing.
The Beltway style of journalism, the “he said/he said,” “right view/left view,” has been derided by Bill Moyers, and those who care are taking a second look at this “fair and balanced” rightist view that refuses to name the lies and the truth. That’s another matter — and far more subtle.
I concur w/above: Armando’s “visit” constituted pouring a dumptruck filled w/salt in a raw wound.
It constitutes classic batterers’ blame-shifting technique, and I’m wise to it…have sonar.
It is not a feminist’s role to “fix” or change anyone’s misogynistic attitudes.
“Heal thyself.”
The individual (or blog owner/moderator’s) roles are to exemplify said “tone” in their posts & via the community norm’s FAQs, etc.
Try some Kimmel:
http://tinyurl.com/8yllh
Yes, I am indeed one of those “Sanctimonious” women’s studies minors (nontraditonal student)–as is my daughter.
…and I refuse to back off, “forgive,” or apologize for a misogynist’s behaviors and attitudes (which are intentional, BTW).
…under the coded guise of “big tent.”
The so-called [un]Democratic party has always been hostile to feminists–see Dixiecrats fmi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism
We aren’t going back, that’s for sure.
Expect a barroom brawl from me, as I fought too diligently during the Second Wave>present, and too much is at stake.
…it won’t emanate off our backs, this party unity crapola.
Enough is enough!
Thanks~
quote should be part of the mission statement for this community and all progressive communities across the Internet. Mainefem, you rock…
Nice to see you here!
I’d like to move forward by agreeing on some basic issues and working together to increase their visibility.
I was dissapointed by the way things were handled so I just left. I don’t think they will miss me anyway. I stop by for the C & J but that’s all. I didn’t need a big speach or posting. I think the community is so big that they don’t care if a few of us leave. Just my thoughts.
They may not care if you’ve left, but I and others are glad you’re here!
Thank You Cali
I am not the best writer in the world and sometimes I have a hard time expressing myself, but I hang at the cafe and value the opinions of many of the folks on Kos. Your’s is one of those.
Ditto what Cali said – I’m so glad to see you here…I’ll send an email later today…
Currently swamped at work…
Thank you Sally. I’m busy at work also today. Look forward to your e-mail
To me, that would be helpful.
Then at least we can begin a dialogue about specifics — about whether there’s a “single issue” agenda at work or whether what is vaguely lumped together as “women’s issues” is really a matter of progressive values across the board.
And, of course, the respect thing. But I fear on this one. If you’re not really believing you’re respected, I doubt any feigning of on the part of the other party will help at this point.
I fail to see how it can possibly be a single issue. What it comes down to – no matter what we’re talking about – is whether or not half the population is equal to the other half. Even abortion eventually comes down to this. (Whether women have the right to privacy when it comes to medical decisions and procedures.) “They” seem to be defining it as a single issue because “they” don’t see how the issues in question affect “them”.
In other words, we’ve got Blog Wars V: Short-Sightedness Strikes Back!
I always here “women’s issues” (plural) referred to as “single issue” (singular), so I assume it’s reproductive rights that is the single issue.
But I also think that sometimes things like family medical leave and child care are lumped in there. And for some people who take a broader perspective, education and health care as well.
I agree totally with your take that reproductive rights affects all, but until we actually get the damned “women’s issues” business named and clarified, I don’t even think you can begin to point out that women’s issues are human issues, across the board.
I think that could be a good place to begin some real dialogue.
This is what democracy looks like. A dynamic, messy process of discovery and rediscovery, of alliances and infighting and testing ideas in the cauldron of public opinion. Sometimes we rage. Sometimes we lick our wounds. And sometimes we just don’t give a damn and take our ball and go home.
Some of us devote much of our lives lurking and posting and blogging and commenting and finding our way from there to here and back, never quite certain if the place we land is the best or right place, wondering if the grass is greener somewhere else. Context matters. Being accepted and acknowledged matters. Kindred spirits matter. How we spend our time is how we spend our lives. Like right now and right now and all the right nows we’ll ever know.
So not to worry. Just be nice. Reserve our most critical and harsh judgments for those who seek to erode our common ground.
With excerpts from a comment I made “over there” last night:
…I think this really escalated when some pointed out that it was not an ad that seemed in alignment with our mission and beliefs and the response was basically -“bunch of whiny prudish feminazis, don’t you know there’s a war on, we are guys, we like to look at tits, it’s actually a sexy ad, etc..” And many men piled on in agreement, and many, many others didn’t weigh in with any opposition at all.
What if every one had jumped in with – “you’re right. It doesn’t represent the respect that is due to women’s brains. We come here for news and intelligent discussion on Democratic issues, not tawdry pop-culture that panders to the lowest common denominator”
Then maybe there could have been a discussion about market realities – does DKos need the money so much that we should all just ignore it? Maybe the latter approach would have led to a community consensus that it was a stupid ad for a stupid show but money is money. Maybe it would have led to a consensus that it wasn’t something most of us (male and female) wanted to see here. Maybe it would have led to a healthy movement to encourage all of us who use, enjoy and value this site to go for paid subscriptions to protect Kos and ourselves from having to money-grub this low. Whatever.
Unfortunately, removing the ad now is not going to undo the damage of hundreds of posts telling women they are a bunch of single issue whiny-babies who can’t get past their prudish sexual hang-ups to focus on the important things. Including a front page post from Kos….
What would help undo the damage? Can’t speak for everyone, but it seems to me that instead of rebuking the posters who expressed a concern it would be nice to read a front page rebuke of the posters who belittled, demeaned and disparaged the concerns. It is possible to disagree with a viewpoint without getting rude about it. And it’s not just “the ad”, or “choice”. I’m as much put out about similar pile-on’s previously over faith and religion. Not all Christians are “ignorant robotic wing-nut theocrats.”
A discussion site is about discussion.
How a site tolerates (or encourages) destructive forms of discussion is the point.
Whether the topic was pie, ads, religion, the Pope, “red staters”, or whatever — its only an example of a larger pattern.
We’re all rational people, but passionate about politics. I think we can handle any of those topics.
The key is how the discussion is managed, how the participants treat each other, and how the site “officials” manage the situations when things get unproductive.
Do they take a hands off approach? Or jump into the fray, arms swinging? Whip out the ban-rod? Or sit on the fringe, calling out only one side of the problem? Or do something far more productive?
Over on catnips diary (I Need and Explanation) there is a thread running, thanks to Grand Moff Texan, that is re-enacting the “no sense of humor, too stupid to recognize satire, blah blah blah). So much for discussion.
Rather than the “apology” he posted before — which many (myself include) read as little more than “I’m sorry you didn’t like the way I said it, but that’s still what I believe,” he could deliver something that sounded… oh, how about the the faintest bit sincere.
If he was to put a post on the front page as succinct as:
In my mind, that would heal the rift pretty darned fast.
One more step.
A blanket condemnation of the crude remarks that filled the threads, and a policing of such remarks in the future by the host himself if the community cannot police itself (due to groupthink, misogyny, etc).
That would be a START.
For some reason Internet culture allows people to be
less polite. A FAQ of norms is useful. Maybe a fundamental question would be: would you say this in public? If not consider skipping it here.
Never accept money for a questionable Internet ad and if
you’re that needy to run the site, put up a donation paypal thing like DU.
These sites are not democracies for someone owns
the site and controls the content.
Consider those issues in terms of making the site more democratic in general.
Instead of giving your own posts top priority put
a linker to the top recommended diary on the front page.
This is a tough one for fundamentally the reason
to put up a site is for ones own agenda as well
as due to “Internet culture” sometimes you just
have to moderate.
BTW: Good news is I had never heard of this site
until the blow out and I think a coalition of
Internet sites for online activism is a good thing.
to promote respect. Before making a comment, ask yourself how this same comment would come across if directed, say, at African Americans or Latinos. Gender bias is so much a part of our culture that well-meaning people get caught up in it all the time and don’t see the offensiveness of their words.
Does anyone know how to cancel a user account on Daily Kos? I know the comments are erased after a time lapse but I don’t know if this cancels the account. Thanks.
You have to acknowledge a rift to heal a rift.
So. When it’s apparent that one community will not listen or respect you, find/join/begin another!
And in those other communities, you encourage a diversity of thought/perspective/opinion. Don’t “ghettoize” issues. I like the approach on this site. I also appreciate the genuine attempt to have an international perspective and to provide a space to learn what those issues are. Perhaps there will be enough users one day to provide broad African, Asian, etc. perspectives as well as European, but so far, so good.
Reaching out to guest bloggers would work, and not the same old same old folks. Examples? Dr. Julianne Malveaux is an economist and damn good writer: she focuses on race and gender and economics. And she’s funny.
Kim Gandy over at NOW–she doesn’t get enough airtime.
Having a Science Friday? Or Monday? Or…
Invite Dr. Shirley Ann Jackson, physicist and former head of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. Talk science issues.
Invite Rep. Stephanie Tubbs Jones and ask her how we can help with her agenda. Or Rep. Pelosi. Or Rep. Rosa DeLauro.
Want to talk about immigration? Education? Talk to Janet Murguia, head of National Council of La Raza.
These are just a few, and I don’t know their availability. But something to think about.
Oh, and BTW–thanks for asking!
I think things got out of hand because posters would not acknowledge the feelings of those who were upset. Simple. As. That. I think it was related to a sense that acknowledgement equalled capitulation.
Communication is difficult, as some have posted above, at the best of times (i.e., face to face), never mind over the internet w/ user ids that are gender neutral or hide other clues that we use in non-internet communication.
Acknowledgement does not equal capitulation. It does not mean that you lose. It does not mean that you’re wrong.
It shows that you are listening, and I don’t think much listening went on over the last few days.
So, that would be a start I’d say. Acknowledge concerns as valid even if they’ve never occurred or concerned you.
Moving forward? That’s going to take some thought. I’m concerned that it will be hard to move forward when you know that there are a group of individuals that do not consider your issues/concerns to be equally important as the whole. I think that needs to be addressed in some way … We know that we need to work together, but how do you continue to work with those who have revealed themselves, and what they’ve shown is anathema to your world view?
Wow! I go away for a few days to lick a few wounds, take a break, and try to repair my website and find that DKos has gone on a Gender Bender and it’s threatening to spill over into my little Gilligan’s Island paradise here at Booman Tribune… awesome!
No, seriously… the alternative is far worse… just take a good look at the “Leave it to Beaver” reDublican party and the retro-values they are trying to impose on the women and men of the World…
The historical parallels that I, and I suspect others are experiencing are uncanny, and probably heightened by the technological advances we have in the media today. It is far healthier to protest and argue as a prelude to productive discourse, rather than be trained sheeple
I would submit that this blow-up was probably pretty predictable, and had to happen in response to the all-out and accelerated attempts at sociological redaction from the Third Right… not only are they trying to do Vietnam over again and do it right, but they’re trying to do the same with “Ozzie and Harriet”. Propaganda from this war as well as their ‘family values pablum’ permeates our every level of existence and a thinking person cannot help but be both insulted and influenced by it at some level.
To those who have either landed or washed ashore here at “Booman’s Island”, I say welcome… I just hope that everyone can eventually achieve their own perspective on the gender bender and then re-enter into useful discourse with those with whom you disagree… You will always have my respect when you do so… IMHO not femininity, nor masculinity, but your humanity demands it…
My only plea is that we never lose sight of the true enemy and their ways…call me just a tree hugging tin-foil-hat-wearing hippie wannabe just barely born after his time, but I honestly sense another “Summer of Love” building like a perfect storm on the horizon of their sinister plans.
the parallels are so there — so, so are the comforting parallels from the past. Anthony, Cady Stanton, Stone, and their “set” 🙂 that started as so radical became — after many decades — seen as so mainstream (actually, society moved more) that Alice Paul and Lucy Burns staked out a newly radical stance in the last decade of the movement . . . and that finally caused a president to have to work with Catt, the hand-picked successor to the first “radicals.” And thus suffrage was won (full and federal).
Well, a tad simplistic.:-) Catt also was amazing at electoral strategy, state by state (since 16 million U.S. women voted prior to the 19th amendment), so I hope Dean has read her works! And so much more. . . .
But above all, the winners did not abandon their core principle of the ballot, from which a voice about other issues would flow. And they took a lot of attacks as “single interest” issue-mongers, too.
As the great Anna Howard Shaw — a physician and a minister, as well as the interim suffrage leader between Anthony and Catt — said in Wilson’s face: “We have been patient too long. . . .”
Thanks for the history vignettes… more things to explore! 🙂
Thanks. Love the stuff. Get me started, and I can’t stop. Haven’t stopped talking about it for years now — and still so much more to listen and learn about. . . .:-)
I don’t think this is about women’s issues per se, but rather about how outliers are treated in online communities. I’ve seen the same kind of circle-the-wagons, my-way-or-the-highway attitude on many different forums, including forums where I wouldn’t have previously guessed that there was any basis for such vociferous disagreement.
The moderator of an online forum has a trust. Yes, the moderators do the work and get to call the shots, but they have a certain ethical responsibility to establish the ground rules and then follow them scrupulously. Successful forums are run by folks who are good facilitators, not by people who view their forum as a personal fief where they can do whatever they damned well want.
Members of an online community have a responsibility as well. Good online communities have core members who set the tone of discussion and help keep things on track. If things start devolving into a flame war, these core members can step in, point out what’s going on, and suggest productive ways to move forward.
Respect is the key concept here. Remain civil at all times. Remember that other posters are real, live people with real, live feelings. Listen to each other and try to understand where other people are coming from. When you see name-calling or hitting below the belt, call it.
since I’ve been accused of being “anti-kos” by a certain party in the past.
I have always felt that there is a dangerous undercurrent of hostility at dkos to human rights issues (women’s/GBLT’s/minorities are all subsets, not different, issues) compared to “real” issues like the Iraq Debacle and Social Security. That this country STILL hasn’t dealt with these cancers which started growning at the very BIRTH of this nation is a big reason for so many of our other problems.
When people try to point this out, they are often attacked for being “single issue voters”. However, this is a meta-issue that undergirds so many other issues.
The front page over there reminds us repeatedly that it is a “partisan” site. When those kinds of attacks are launched at humanists (including those of us who focus on subsets of that larger catagory), then the message is sent that THE PARTY has no place for humanists’ concerns. In a country that is itself running gulags, torturing and killing civilians, locking up AMERICANS without due process (let alone what it is doing to other people), runs one of the most extensive and brutal prison systems in the western world, (including political prisoners like Leonard Peltier), to say that NEITHER party welcomes people fighting for basic human rights is a sad indictment of our political culture.
My problem w/ the “pie” issue was ALWAYS w/ respect to the nasty response women got when they objected to the ad. I said that repeatedly in comments. That reaction in and of itself speaks poorly of the community, and the leadership’s apparent comfort with that lack of respect encourages more of that fratboy behavior.
One of the many, many things wrong with the two party system is the ability of party elites in either of the two major parties to denegrate important concerns of key constituencies. Democrats these days often make fun of those poor secular GOP businesspeople who have to deal with the religious right running their party. But there are plenty of similar groups within the Democratic Party.
In this case, those on dKos wishing to not take these human rights issues seriously essentially always say, “whaddaya gonna do, vote Republican?” And of course, in a very narrow sense, they’re right. All the more reason to try to work toward making this into a multiparty system, so that if both major parties refuse to sensibly address important human rights issues (or healthcare issues, or war and peace issues, or civil liberties issues…the list is actually pretty long), there’s something to do other than simply vote for the lesser evil.
1. Give it a rest. Everyone. Everywhere. Anything worthwhile will still be there after a cool down period. Time probably doesn’t heal all wounds, but it does have a way of lending perspective. Clue: I don’t think what happened has ANYTHING AT ALL to do with ostensible subject of conflict.
Come back later. When you’re not steaming out your ears. Really.
**************
OK, it’s much later.
What we have now is a migration in anger away from Daily Kos to Booman Tribune, which I’m afraid is not the right way to make this split happen optimally, because there is a selection involved which will result in an imbalance in both communities, and even more important, the issue around which the anger gathers colors the conversation at both communities, and distorts them.
I think highly of Booman Tribune, and wish for its success on its own terms, not as the anti Kos. I fear (I’ve already seen) some untoward consequences here.
Divide Daily Kos now! Give Kos something to write about in his much heralded book. Cells that don’t grow and divide, die.
In case this is a doomed idea, please keep it in mind for your future highly successful blogs. Split them before they grow too big.
I agree that we shouldn’t create an Anti-Kos site. I expect us to discuss the storm for a while after we wash up on Booman’s shores, but we’ll move on.
I prefer this voluntary split. The resulting “imbalance” is exactly what I hoped to find when I left DK (in disgust not anger.) I WANT all the fratboys and their cheerleaders to stay there.
You may think that now. But every temperament has it’s time and place. There is hidden strength in a tolerant diversity, even including fratboys and cheerleaders.
In any case, there’s very little chance of an orderly and preplanned fission. That little innovation probably only took a couple of billion years to get the kinks worked out of it.
Not that I am Kos, but here’s what I would suggest that he do…pronto:
Take down that misogynistic “Pie” ad…immediately–it’s nothing more than the subjugation of women (male gaze–for their plearure–at women’s expense).
Apologize in an authentic and genuine manner, and beef up the community norms standard as expected from all.
Belittle all Kos community members who trivialized and minimized those who objected.
…and be able to model humility and endurance, as the backlash from the misogynists (who tout “free speech” and Libertarian attitudes) will suddenly spew toxic plumes of venom for days and/or weeks.
In addition, the vitriolic naming would ensue, such as:
wimp, faggots, spineless cowards, and dick-lovers would run amok.
…so take the heat, “Boys.”
That’s what I would call maturity and an evolved soul.
So, “show me,” Kos (and Armando).
‘Cuz your so-called “pleasure” will never be wrought off the backs (at the expense of women)–and I can’t believe that DailyKos hasn’t received negative cred over the past 48 hrs. (and will continue to do so for some time to come).
This has been brewing for months, but the Pie Ad represents the festering pustule of misogyny which has finally spewed everywhere (i.e., precipitating event, of sorts).
(See ongoing divorce rates fmi).
There’s a reason we divorce men…repeatedly.
It’s a matter of conscience.
‘Fess up.
That’s just for starters, folks!
It’s obvious from Kos’s final post on the matter, quoting Atrios I believe, that he isn’t going to “fess up” and feels no need to.
He feels no need to discuss the ugly things said in those threads (a.k.a “pustule of misogyny”, or “gleeful piling on” or “mean-spirited, malicious muckety muck” !). All those comments of “way to go, bro” “that’s putting them in their place” and “way to BITCH-SLAP those girls!” were some of the most repulsive parts of the whole mess.
Sorry, BooMan, to keep going on. But nothing can be mended when one side doesn’t see a problem.
Some people will stay at Kos and let it go and continue on. Others will leave and find other outlets for their activity. Kos will still go on and so will they. No more, no less.
What a great human being you are! I don’t see that Kos is interested in healing the rift, and it is pointless for me to put my energy and time into any discourse where I am 2nd class or where I am told the issues that concern me aren’t ‘that important’ and we have more important things to focus on. I’m tired of it and I do myself a soulful wrong attempting to force myself into accepting that type attitude or trying to dismiss it away. I had a long temper on this issue. It turn into a blazing fire immediately. I was more than one completely stupid sexist incident from him burns me, and it is more than two. Seems like we have a little problem here! I find myself no longer interested in and even FEARING the type of Democratic party that Markos aspires to promote!
I meant to say that…..It didn’t turn into a blazing fire immediately. It was more than one completely sexist incident from him that burns me, and it is more than two. Seems like we have a little problem here!
I’ve seen some kind words referring to my post over at dKos last night, and a few not very happy with my decision. That’s fine, and perfectly understandable.
As I said there, I have only respect for my friends who have chosen to leave, and I recognize the variety of reasons for which they’ve done it. I would urge everyone, though, to consider coming back when we’ve all calmed down a little.
Much like I’m not willing to give up the Democratic party (I’m one of those who believes that you can accomplish more by staying engaged and fighting within an organization) I’m not willing to give up daily Kos to the screamers. On either side of this debate–because the blame on this one isn’t entirely on the troglodyte side (mostly, though).
As for what happens to BT in all of this, I would love to see it become not an alternative to dKos, but a companion. Less a little sibling than, say, a cousin. It’s important in the long run that it not become the anti-dKos. At the same time it needs it’s own voice.
IMO, the way is open for larger discussion of progressive issues in general, and less focus on straight-ahead politics (which is what I’ve always gone to dKos for, and what I really love to hash out, personally).
So anyway, more rambling from mcjoan. Call me a naive Pollyanna (many have, believe me), but I think that eventually the people who matter will have learned from this and will go on better for it. But it can only happen if we remain engaged.
I’ve long since given up on the Democratic Party, but I haven’t entirely given up on dKos.
<<Anyone who has any constructive advice about how online activist communities can be more sensitive to women’s issues, or about what you would like to see done to heal this rift, post it below.<p>
Off the top of my head:
7.Include regular offerings those who write well on essential community building basics like effective communication skills, conflict resolution, collaboration vs conflict, the power of unintentional “isms”, how to disagree constructively, etc etc.
Strong cohesive communities must be consciously and carefully built, and must have ongoing attention to it’s own foundations, if it is to accomplish larger goals. Communities for change do not ust “happen” because a bunch of like thinking people end up on the same website. Once we’re here, we have to learn how to live effective with each other, while working towards larger goals. Not enough attention is ever paid to this, in my opinion.
I especially like, from #2 Set up a culture where it is a value to learn from each other across the generations, where different viewpoint are equally valued, and where disrespect is not an accepted option.
It seems to me there is a lot about the struggle for human rights that Kos and other posters could learn, if they would quit being so defensive. Maybe they’re young, and don’t realize what women’s lives were like before 1970. Do they realize that black men had the right to vote almost 50 years before any women? Do they know what that means? Do they understand what Jerome’s graphs mean?
As for #4, Make sure there is equal mix of male and female primary writers. Kos posted about this one time when he was getting new week-end front-pagers. He said specifically he wouldn’t hold himself to any quotas on gender. He said it was only about merit. But then his choices are always overwhelmingly male, aren’t they? And, at any time, I can always think of many prominent female posters who would have been great, and have gone on to be quite good on other blogs. I guess his attitude on that has been simmering in my mind ever since.
Maybe BooMan can incorporate some of your ideas here.
One of the most disappointing aspects for me of what happened at dKos is that it was the same song, second verse among liberals. We dare not admit that we, collectively, are misogynists. This is different from how we are individually, but as a collective force, we have marginalized women (and minorities, and GLBT, etc.) time and again. I remember so clearly what Al Sharpton said in his speech to the convention:
And honestly, it made me a little sick to my stomach, because there I was watching a show about a party that barely represents me, that alienates me because as a whole, it begrudges my basic human rights as pesky special interests that get in the way of winning, and I thought how I’d been saying the same kind of stuff for so long. I’d ride that donkey (because there is no other choice). The Democratic Party only promised that someday, someone would represent me (families, children) instead of the military machine that chews up our babies and spits them out, and if I wanted that day to come, I’d better STFU and hope for the best.
So, what I am suggesting is that women stop being treated as special interests, and I think the whole structure of the Democratic Party will change as a result. I agree that there should be parity in front page representation, so that the culture of a DKos (or any other forum) evolves to include a focus on so-called women’s issues, which are basically human rights issues.
I also think that we should develop competence among participants to engage in productive discussion. STFU is not productive, but what lorraine said about appropriate responses above was very useful.
And I like mainfem’s bell hooks quote and agree that it should be a guiding vision.
Who is Mulligan?
Golf term. It means ‘do over’ or ‘re-do’ without a penalty shot being added to your score for that hole.
Mulligan can also mean a stew made from whatever happens to be available.
We seem to have found ourselves with a stew made mainly out of pie. But I hope we can adjust the seasonings and come up with something more tasty and nourishing.
The first thing we all could do in order to try and heal(if that is our mission and we choose to take it…snark)is to do as several other posters have suggested but I will rephrase it the way I would say it. Stop giving this situation energy. It is just feeding it. Adding fuel to the fire won’t change what has happened over there. I am not saying that it shouldn’t be hashed out eventually but God darn folks this has been going on for four days now. Call me selfish but I hate that it has spilled over here. Do not get me wrong, I am very happy to see so many familiar dkos names over here but how many of you really ever even dropped by here before the fallout? Would you really have come here had it not been for that? I am not trying to be nasty or mean but I think asking a legitimate question.If it was just to have a place to vent well, honestly, is that really fair to BoomanTrib community. I feel we got dragged into this damn thing and it should have been hashed out over there.
Again…I want you all here. Ask anyone here how I love newcomers and always welcome them. I still will go to Kos but if I have a problem with Kos as a person or Kos the community I will voice it over there. Booman asked what we thought some solutions may be to healing this riff and specifically asked us not to rehash the ordeal but come up with solutions and yet here we are rehashing the whole thing again. I do believe everyone has made their positions abundately clear. I feel the same way about what is going on over there, believe me I do. I hate it as a matter of fact but I am sick to death of it spilling in over here.
Can we now move on to other topics?
to the “Armando” diary? Did he delete it, or did you?
It seems a shame (at least in a “lost history” sense) that the first “Good Bye Cruel Boo” (from Armando himself!) went with it.
What happened to Armando’s diary?
that Armando deleted it. I didn’t.
just to find out if he’s a bully/coward in the real world or just plays one on the web.
His off-putting presentation does no service to the (occasionally) good ideas he has . . . a shame, really . . . as was the way he came over here with a chip on his shoulder (and failed to make any case, or friends, at all).
Here’s a suggestion, Booman.
Why not get Andy to reserve the option of deleting diary entries with comments on them, or alternatively more than a specific number of comments, for those with admin privileges. If there are strong reasons, such as legal and personal safety issues, to delete an entry, then the author can e-mail the staff and request its removal.
It’s immensely disrespectful to other people’s work to erase it at will. It also involves sending part of our collective history down the memory hole.
I feel strongly about this and hope you will consider my proposal.
Armando coming over here as Kos’ consiglieri with his baseball bat — not to play ball but to break some knee caps — needs to be documented.
Hi people. I’m a mostly reader, sometime commenter at Kos. I haven’t spent much time reading here, but like what I see so far. I’ll just say that I am more interested in progressive issues than conforming to someones idea of supporting democrats no matter what at the end of the day.
As far as womens issues are concerned, and avoiding what happened at Kos, it’s pretty simple to me. Whether or not you agree with someones take on a certain issue or something they perceive as inappropriate or degrading to them is something that can be discussed and hashed out. The bottom line is that everyone deserves to be treated with respect, fairness, equality, and above all, keeping an open mind. I’m a man, which doesn’t really matter, but I thought the pie ad thing was inconsistant with what I thought Kos represents to the public, but whatever. It’s “his” site, as has so often been repeated. The real problem as I see it was his immature, I’m better than you attitude in his response to the complaints. Anyway, that’s my two cents. I’m looking forward to reading and commenting more here at Booman Tribune. So far it seems like it might be a better fit for me.
Peace
Welcome to the site. On behalf of the Welcome Mat Crew, I hope you’ll check out the Welcome Wagon Diary and read about the members, and if you feel comfortable send out an intro on yourself. It’s a good way to build community. Paz!