Wowzers, an NYT editorial I can read:
More on the flip…
The Times has developed an interesting meme to work with here: Women who join the military are asked to perform sexually degrading work (all the while, doubtlessly being told that they are “serving honorably”).
The editorial staff rightly casts doubt on the utility of these techniques
No trained terrorist would crack under these conditions, and you might create a few more along the way.
I know the logic is to play on the cultural beliefs of Muslims and humiliate the prisoners, but by that logic, shouldn’t men be performing lap dances, as homosexuality is taboo in Middle Eastern cultures? Is that happening? I sure haven’t heard about.
The Bushco Pentagon is using the brave women in our armed forces as sexual objects. They are purposely creating an environment which puts women in a dangerously hypersexualized environment. Check out the increase in sexual assaults within the Army, not to mention the violence perpetrated against female prisoners.
I want to know the answer to the question implied in this editorial? Knowing that your daughter/sister/loved one might participate in the actions depicted in the Abu Ghraib photographs or those mentioned in reported cited in the Times editorial, would you want her to join the Army?
Are they deliberately trying to destroy our Armed Forces?
I could be working on my dissertation or sleeping right now, but I’m instead choosing to spend it with you. Hope you enjoy, would love to hear what you think.
Probably no one here wants any child of ours to go, but you certainly illuminate why it would be a horror to watch a daughter ship out. I’ve been so focused on not wanting my son to go that I haven’t even thought about what if I had a daughter, but your diary and that editorial bring it home.
It really is tempting to think they want to destroy the Armed Forces, if only because that is what they are actually doing. We’ll be out of deployable soldiers in a year, they’re saying now. (To state it at the most simple level.)The good news is that means we can’t attack anybody else; the bad news is that means anybody can attack us.
The only thing that keeps me from thinking it really is some kind of diabolical scheme is that it undermines their own plans for world domination, for which they really do need a big strong army. Unless of course they have already secretely sold us to the Chinese.
Some will say, not so secretly.
Good diary. Thanks.
I don’t know much about the military because I’ve never been interested in it, but I wonder how much of the escalating sexism is attributable to the combination of an administration steeped in machismo and the war itself. I know that historically in times of war, the whole stupid game of quien mas macho generally gets cranked up to obscene volumes.
Also up this alley, I’ve noticed a change in the kind of TV advertising I’m seeing for the Army. I’m up all night usually, so I’m seeing it on cable during the late night hours. The commercials have changed from the action-packed, get-skills, be-a-big-show-off campaign into these sedate, quiet, much more disturbing tropes on Soldierhood as Passage into Manhood. Has anyone else seen them?
There’s one with a young black guy sitting with his mom around a kitchen table setting, and the kid is telling his mom that he’s found someone to pay for his college. And the mom is hesitant. And the kid is like, “It’s time for me to be the man.” The camera angle changes to the passive mom’s face, and then she asks him how things are going to be.
There’s another one with a white kid who’s dressed in uniform and sitting with his dad. The camera stays closeup on their faces while the dad tells his son, “You did two things when you got off that train that you’d never done before. You shook my hand, and you looked me straight in the eye.” And the kid smiles a small smile.
I think they’re creepy but I’m not sure if my synopses are conveying why. It’s something about the soft sell. I mean, the idea that manhood is usually marketed through sportscars and shaving gels is offensive too, but it’s also ridiculous. Marketing manhood via war–particularly this war–is beyond offensive, and it’s way more dangerous than sportscars.
Hell, I wouldn’t want my son in this Army, either.
Creepy, indeed. They seem to be directly addressing what is becoming a big problem for them–parents who don’t want their kids to go. Sounds like those ads are aimed as much at parents as at kids.
At least some of my generation seem to be turning from “Hell, no, we won’t go,” to “Hell, no, they won’t go.” I hope the kids agree. I’d hate for them to pick that idea to rebel against.
Sounds like those ads are aimed as much at parents as at kids.
Bingo. The exploitation of the family is revolting. This administration is tearing the nation apart at the inner seams.
One of my step-dads was a Vietnam vet and he used to tell me war stories when I was in high school and we’d both find ourselves unable to sleep, up in the living room together in the middle of the night. I think that had a big influence in turning me off the military before I ever took it very seriously.
My half-sisters (on my father’s side) are 10 years younger than me, though–I just turned 35–and their general age group is being strongly courted for cannon fodder. My baby sister’s live-in boyfriend is National Guard and has so far escaped call-up due to medical issues, but despite her hippy mom she and the boyfriend are both conservative supporters of the whole WoT. I can’t get my head around it. I know how she was raised.
I’m just as much a critic of the war machine as the next liberal, but I’ll tell ya, every time someone in the liberal blogosphere gets frustrated and growls that the supporters should go fight this damn thing, I get flashes of mental images of my baby sister: running in the yard in diapers and laughing, learning to tie her shoes, trying to carry a huge bulky science project to school, nervous about her first date…and then dressed in desert fatigues and submerged in war atrocities, and it makes me an emotional basketcase. I cannot imagine what parents go through.
I get flashes of mental images of my baby sister:
Boy that’s a really good point you make that we tend to forget when we go all hard-ass on war supporters. I know a few of them and have known them since they were in kindergarten. (Some influence I had, ha.) I don’t want to go to their funerals, either.
At least some of my generation seem to be turning from “Hell, no, we won’t go,” to “Hell, no, they won’t go.” I hope the kids agree. I’d hate for them to pick that idea to rebel against.
Given the recruitment numbers, I’d say that most kids aren’t falling for the okey-doke. Thank goodness.
There’s one with a young black guy sitting with his mom around a kitchen table setting, and the kid is telling his mom that he’s found someone to pay for his college. And the mom is hesitant. And the kid is like, “It’s time for me to be the man.” The camera angle changes to the passive mom’s face, and then she asks him how things are going to be.
There’s another one with a white kid who’s dressed in uniform and sitting with his dad. The camera stays closeup on their faces while the dad tells his son, “You did two things when you got off that train that you’d never done before. You shook my hand, and you looked me straight in the eye.” And the kid smiles a small smile.
Fuck, yes, that’s creepy. That’s the same kind of propaganda that got used to try and boost recruitment during World War II, only with better writing than the typical catchy patriotic slogan of the day used in that period. I think what’s especially creepy about it is the fascistic overtones – that the only way to become a man is through violent service to the state, and that nothing else is worth a young boy’s time.
(First, in WW2 we were fighting something that was fairly obviously a real war. It was a cause that was widely supported at home.)
But today we have the benefit of most of a lifetime of scientific research on human behavior and information technology. We know down to the color schemes, facial geometry, pitch and tone of voice, choice of characters, arrangement of the set–and we know how to focus-test the copy–to deliver as much motivational emotion while triggering the minimum of rational thought.
But you can bet the boys in the back room are already salivating over that hormone that makes people more trusting after a sniff. The right virus, a couple of genes, the day’s coming when the whole job becomes that much easier.
or life
Just think about what happens to the attitudes of the men who are exposed to this behavior everyday as a component of an authoritarian environment. We already have a culture which tacitly supports rape by constantly promoting the idea that having sex is the realm of men and being the passive providers is the nature of women. The military’s behavior just reinforces it.
And I have a real problem with the editorial singling out women. It’s another version of blaming the victim, only instead of implying that the rape victim did something to bring on her assault, now they’re implying that the women brought this on by being in the military. Consider this seemingly incongruous comment: And where are the members of Congress who wring their hands over the issue of women in combat?
If there’s a problem with the military, it isn’t a problem that is solved by keeping women out it, it’s a problem that is solved by attacking the attitudes of the men who run it and the culture that engenders those attitudes.
I think I read that sentence a little differently. I thought it was snark and they were essentially saying, “If they supposedly care so much about women why aren’t they hollering about this, too?” I didn’t see it as saying, “here’s another reason for them to keep women out of the military,” but rather as pointing out the hypocrisy of the anti-women brigade. But I could be wrong.
But editorial writer knows that they what they were caling for was limiting the role of women in the military and if they did “holler” about this, the only thing that they would be saying that “see what happens when you have women in the military” (which by the way, Ann Coulter already did about Abu Ghraib). And even more to the point, it’s in the end paragraph where the ultimate points of an editorial get summed up.
You could be right. And even if it was snark, they may have erred in using it, because of exactly what you said.
I know the logic is to play on the cultural beliefs of Muslims and humiliate
That’s not logic–heck it’s probably not even military. The military knows how to make enemy troops run to surrender to us instead of someone else.
This is PNAC Middle East Revenge-Think.
Q. Would you want your daughter to join this Army?
A. Why yes, where else would her summer job of dog-walking be relevant experience?
I understand that you queried ARNY vs Navyv vs AF vs USMC……bs they are all the same…….
Just for the record, I posted this comment in admittedly poor taste before Brenda shared her story. I did not intend to paint all military folk w/ this brush and sincerely hope I did not offend anyone, service personnel or otherwise.
Knock, Knock….can I come in here? I think I am not the only veteran here who happens to be a veteran either. I can and will tell you what I think if you want it. It ain’t pretty either….do you want to hear my take on this?
Please Brenda, primary sources are very desirable!
noecon, are you very sure you want my point on this. I do not like taking point on anything…a lesson learned a long time ago…:o)
I agree with neoconnedagain — your insights would be very valuable.
well, lets be very sure you want attitudes here…it ain’t pretty and I could be monitored and thrown of into a jail off the military base someplace…:o)
Bring it Brenda!!! I’ll personally set up your legal defense fund, will hold candlelight vigils, write LTEs to secure your release…
what neo said. (Did you pick that screen name just for how it would be shortened?)
no, pure serendipity. good call!
Let it be known I will have to give some history on me while I write this response.
@ age back in jr. high school, my family had several friends that were in the military. I learned early on how it is to feel proud and patriotic. I can tell you I really was impressed with the history of our military and our friends of the family that were in. They were in the Navy and I got so many trips to the ships of the Navy that I learned more about them before I enetered into the Navy. It was so exciting, to say the least.
@ the age of 18 I had already decided to go into the Navy. My parents did not know what my intentions were at the time. All they knew was that I was going to study for nursing. They even took me to the most prestigious schools over in St. Louis for this study. When I pronounced I was and had already made arrangements to join the Navy, my mother nearly fainted. My dad stood with his mouth open and could hardly shut it. The color drained from both of their faces. To learn that I had even gone behind their backs to start the proceedings was almost more than they could take. I was their little girl and baby and they just had all the faith in me to do the right thing and do my studies as I said I was gong to do…..other things went on from this time but need not go into this…just a processing process, ie induction process,and so forth….
Now I turned 18 on the 3rd of July and after the 4th celebrations, I boarded a train to, listen to this one children, Bainbridge, Md for my basic training. This was 1963. I enlisted for 3 years. Upon my arrival at this place which was not such a bad place, in my opinion, I got right into the military thing. I even had a military friend working there and his family lived in Rising Sun, MD. So you see I was not really alone…Yet for another long diary….bs “what life was like for me in boot camp”. I had to sign a paper releasing me/Navy to the hospital corps. Otherwise, I would have been a clerk typist…and as you all know, I am not a typist…:o)
Upon graduating there and having had to demand a signature to be come a hospital corpsman, I went to Gt. Lakes, Il. for this. Boy did I think I had made the wrong move “yet another diary”…after doing this and learning the medical things I had wanted to learn, I just could not get into learning the new things like metric systems and the way drugs were to be delivered in my job discription. Time wore on and I did pass this school, graduated just after the time that JFK got shot. This is the time frame that VN got mentioned most every day on TV and what was happening. I was remember 18 years of age and had no clue as to what I had gotten myself into. I was having too much fun and learning what I thought was my choosen lifes dream, nursing. I even thought afterwards that I would stay in the Navy and go to nursing school and become an officer and do what I wanted to do all along, without my parents having to pay for it. [They were just common ordinary ppl from the midwest and did not have much money to boot]. I was trying to save them the financial burden. (does that sound familar?)
As time wore on, VN became a roaring fun time for us all. I got my duty station and it was a comfortable and great duty station. On the East coast and in the military terms dream duty, USNaval Hospital, Annapolis, Md. Right there at the naval acd. Well, while I was there, we have 3/4’s of our hosptial corpsman (guys) taken for fleet marine duty during the dominican republic crisis and I had to learn many jobs on top of my own. By then I had worked up to the hospital corps wave in the medical clinic….doing every 3rd night on duty in the ER. Remember me complaining about bein always on call…I just can not seem to give up the shield of all this once ingrained into me in the military…”yet another diary”…I know you are getting tired of all of my blabbewring here….bs
I was doing my job, as was supposed to do, and one of the Dr’s I worked for and I were alone. With me in the clinic…..he asked me to do something I was so astonished to hear from his mouth…after all I had baby sat for him and his wife….I declined and he got rough with me at that point..so you see, sexual harressment was not only a new thing to be happening in the military, it has been a long time standing thing to have happen.
I threatened him and told him I would to go his wife and to the Capt. [old man] to state what had happened to me and he backed off but told me to do anything else about this occurrence would cost me advancement in rate and much more… I did not want to know what the latter meant either….so I just spent the rest of my time there and decided to get out….besides my mother wanted me out to continuse my studies as was planned before. I was promised by high ranking personnel that I could have any place I wanted for re-uping and I really tossed this AROUND in my mind for doing [only for getting away from this man][I really likes being in the Navy]. I finally got out…Went to nursing school and got married and had children…the rest is history…I then later on after a divorce and rules changing in the military went in to the USAF as a flight nurse..
I can tell you that much can happen to women in the military…..I have never, ever forgotten the experience with that DR. My mate a hosptial corpsman (male) in the clinic knew what had happended and he protected me from further occurrences, as best as possible. For this I will forever beholding to him for.
Now to today. I see this whole thing getting out of hand. In the process of being older and working for the VWMP, I have met many women who in many places had advances placed upon them. I am talking medical field here, folks. The very area that is to be in place to help ppl…..what can I say…I am not dismayed, women have lots to offer in the military, I just see them abused to their gender to make things happen and for the gratification of their counterpoint….men.
After the first gulf war, there was a study that came out about women in the front action of the military. Many things were discussed and learned about this. Some of the very things that we of the VN era had already experinced, from contimation of AO and depeleted uranium, etc. to sexual harressment, unwanted pregnancy, drug abuse, mental depression, ptsd, you name it. It was determined that women are nurtures, right? What happens to a woman when she is to not do that nutruring? When she is asked to kill instead of nurture, what happens? What happens to her reproductive system when placed into areas of such stressors? It became a very complexing question, but the women who wanted to fly jets and command ships, they had to give on/in some areas. I am firmly against any woman in the role of combat! This can and should be discussed greatly. This then would interfere with the role of women in the military academy’s of the US. So you see it is a very complex and humongous topic we can discuss.
Do you want your daughter to be taken prison of war? Just ask the female doctor or pilot taken prisoner in ther first gulf war. Just ask any woman from the pacific taken prisoner during the second world war. I do not want my daughter or grand daugher subjected to such things, let alone from our own…..
It really needs to be discussed openly by us all and we really need to have open thoughts on this.
I am not against a woman being a warrior….no no..I am not against this at all….I am just saying we need to talk about this…
I have left a lot of my experiences out of this comment, but for good reason, not all was a good thing, but many were good and funny. I want to wind this down….what do you think?????do you really want your daughter subjected to this kind of happenings? Do you really want her on a turret shooting a gun and killing ppl? I have seen this going on nowadays in Iraq! Like a diary over on kos one time, someone commented on a person returning that tatooed her whole body, to do and accomplish what? CAN WE REALLY HAVE OPEN DEBATE ON THIS? It really intails much to be discussed….are you really ready for this? I am…
….besides, I was extended due to the war…does this sound familar????? I still ahve sleepless nights rehashing the war and the places I was placed and doing the things I had to do. Not only at Annapolis but over across the big pond west of here.
Brenda,
Thank you for sharing your very difficult experience(s) with us. I admire your strength and your desire to prevent similarly dehumanizing things from happening to other women. BigHug.
thanks, Neo…but I happen to support the military to the extent that they do the right thing for their personnel. and only that!!!!!!!! I do not like ppl being intimadated and made feel subhuman in any area of things, be it us or them.
We really do not have a clue to the types of torture that one can surcome to, at anyones hands and minds.
I’m sure it wasn’t easy to write that and I really appreciate that you did. But, reading what you’ve done and how you’ve dealt with it, it’s not surprising that you have the strength and character to do so.
Thanks,,,but I have always been forward in my personality. I really do not want to take any bull from anyone. There are times and then there are times…if you know what I mean. This is why I feel older than old dirt….bs this is the time of my ife to stand down and really stay there tooo…:o)
I must say this to you and each of you here. I do support the troops..always have, but there is a point that I have to pull a hault on lots of what is going on in it. Tooooo much politics goin’ on to suit me. and I think it is very wrong.
I can hold my own candle and will do so if need be. I think this is why I have gotten to where I am today in my career. To paraphrase our fearless leader..is was hard work…:o) anyhow, I have much more to tell sometime if and when anyone is willing to listen..:o)
We, as a society, really must take a very deep breath and really discuss this topic and in its depth and be honest when doing so.
I did not intend to take over this diary..I think it is a very interesting topic to discuss. I am just glad someone has been thinking about it. It is worthy of lots not just for our military but for women in general.
to finish my sense of being a good American, out of tmy three children [one male, one female], I had two that were in the military….so you see, I can get beyond this in some ways.
would I let this happen today…..HELL NO!!!! not under this CiC!!!!!!!!!!!!!..and pentagon…etc…
Well, it seems to me that you have always been a good American, and more importantly a good human being. In fact, we would do very well with a country full of Brendas.
Thanks again for welcoming me here last week.
you bet, Friend. I again welcome you here for your one of our humans that need to have a voice.
I have personally worked with a service officer who helped deal with women with many problems stemming from their tour(s) in the military. NO fun!!!! So sad!!!!!!
Wobblie, I apologize to you for mouthing off tooooooo much. After all this is your diary. Might we have your input here? Thank you very much for your considering this tipic. HUGS
Sorry I haven’t been around to tend the diary – it was a gorgeous day to be off of work.
I needed a little late night rant, and I’m glad people found this spot to be useful for discussion – especially your input, Brenda. I re-read the diary and noted my last line:
The comments made in this diary lead me to believe that I should have used the words “destroy the men and women of our Armed Forces.”
I’ve yet to read through all the comments (I need to make dinner for the fam and put junior to beddy-bye), but I’ll be back to play later.
I wouldn’t want my daughters, or my son to join this army or any army, and I’m pretty certain this would never happen anyway, since they have been raised in an anti-war atmosphere. My issue or main concern is the possibility of a draft, but that’s a different subject.
I think that the treatment women get in the military is a reflection of society as a whole, only in the military I can see how it could be worse since those women would be stuck inside of a system that is, or at least, has been structured in such a way as to give subordinates little if any way to call attention to abuses they are suffering, with any real expectation of action. It almost seems as if they would have to hope to find a superior who would be willing to do something, let alone be sympathetic.
As far as women soldiers being used as interrogators goes, I’m sure there are those who are forced to do the things you mention, simply because they are ordered to, and others who might actually enjoy it, or at least get a power fix out of it. You don’t have to be a man to have an abusive personality. Then there are those, I believe, who are a combination of the two. Someone who does such things because she is ordered, but at the same time is getting some satisfaction from it. I would say that Lynndie England is among this third group.
Bottom line. Whether you are a man or a woman in the military, you don’t belong to yourself any longer, and you will be used as a tool because that’s all you really are anyway. It’s clear though that women are at a far higher risk of abuse within a system like that simply because of biology and being outnumbered, let alone the testosterone fueled culture they are buried in.
For the most part, I have to agree with you. I, however, want to pull in something here that I personally feel revealent. Just because I joined the military, does not give anyone the permission
to abuse me. I must remind you that you are right up to a point. Case in hand, back in my days, ethics did have a meaning. I got severely sunburned once. Enough to make me sick to the point I ran a temp etc. I did not go to sickbay, why? cuz I was the property of the US government and I could have been in trouble for damage of said property. However, when the Dr. came for me for sexual abuse, threaten and/or harassment, I said NO, loud and clear enough that he knew I meant what I said. I did not invite him to do such a thing to me; therefore, he was not getting my permission, and to back off and what I would and could do (back then anyhow), and it was. After all a small duty station and the word getting out about such a thing, would have ruined his career. He stayed his distance from me in the future; however, I really felt threatened by being around him.
Today, they do not have a choice and I feel, from the stories I have heard, that they are in limbo as to the actions that need to be taken. What a shame too. There are rules and regulations that follow/dictate to this behavior by anyone.
I have heard that the abuse over in Iraq is more often than not. Nothing will ever get done about it. I know at one time, Rummy was pushed into doing something about it, but if he followed thru, I do not know.
I would like to know how many women are sent home for the condition of pregnancy. I would like to see the break down on all the injuries and conditions of women from a war zone, etc, such as Iraq and others.
The military academy’s have their own set of problems too. I understand there is opposition to addressing such said matters [true or not]. But at least it is out in the open now.
I saw a woman on a humvee turret the other day. Now that is in my opinion in combat, even tho they say it is not. bull**!!!! Well, the whole place is a combat zone…I agree with that one.
I wonder what will happen when just one man is taken prisoner and abuse, let alone a woman.
The books I have read about the Navy nurses on Battan and others is just horrible. What they had to endure can not be talked about here online.
To have your own troops abuse you is simply unthinkable. I get so angry and upset over this.
The studies that I read about the first gulf war and women are disastrous. I am amazed they have allowed many women in said MOS’s
Like I said, I am for women in the military, but there is a line to draw to where they are to be placed, especially boots on the ground.
I hope I am making some sense of this for you folks.
I think that the men are saying that if you want to do the job we do, you have to be like us and…what does that mean????
Hi Brenda. Your last sentence,
“I think that the men are saying that if you want to do the job that we do, you have to be like us and…what does that mean?”
Maybe it means that they are saying you can’t do what they do.
Or maybe it means that the only way they can accept you is on their level because women doing what they do is too threatening to them.
I could be wrong but I think it means both for whomever it is saying it. There are some there that do feel threatened by women doing the job they thought that only they could do.
Then there are others who say if you think you can do the job, butch, then come right on in and get it done.
Some of these women are really in a spot at times. Do you really know of a woman who wants to be holding a gun/on a turret and shooting at some ppl and possiblably killing them, including children?
Then on the other hand the women in this instance of Iraq and the ways only women can intimadate the prisoners, Yes it is a power grab, IMHO. That is only something a woman can do. What can I say. I am not there. I can only summerize what I see and feel from past experiences. I hope I have address what I am saying here.
If you read my posts earlier on, I am a very patriotic person; however, under this administration, I refuse to have my son say he is thinking of reuping. I am so very verbal about that, that he never has said that to me even in joking again. I lost one child and I do not intend to loose another to this silly action in Iraq.
to clearify I lost one child who happened to be in the military, but not in Iraq, thank God. My son could be called up, and he has joked with me on going back in..which gets my b/p up so much and he knows it and wont do it again. I was so very upset, he had to sit me down and comfort me by saying he was only kidding. Whew, wished I had known that ahead of time. I would not wish anything like this on anyone with this administration…no ever!!!!!
Why do kids like to antagonize their parents like that? :O)
I’m sorry to hear that you lost a child Brenda. I lost a stepsister and watched what it did to my Dad. I can’t imagine the anguish that parents of soldiers deployed in Iraq and around the world feel, and even if there is a draft, I don’t intend to let my children be taken and thereby make me one of those parents.
Btw, yes, I did read your earlier comments and I can tell that you are a patriotic person, but as you know, serving in the military isn’t a pre requisite for being patriotic. I think all of us here are patriotic in different ways. One more thing. While I don’t want to see anyone have to operate a turret gun, I believe that if there is a draft, the fair thing to do would be to draft women too. War affects all soldiers differently, but I don’t think women would suffer any worse than men who have been in combat, but I’ve never served in the military and I’m not a woman, so all of this is just my own opinion and I could be very wrong.
I know that one does not have to serve to be patriotic. I really did not mean it like that. Under bush as the CiC is not what I want my children to be subjected to. My son served 8 years, already. I think if there is a draft, they will include women this time. I just hope it doesn t get to that.
My daughter who passed on was in communication and loved it.
In ref. to the diarist discussion, what they are using the women to do, involving the prisioners, is just plain sick.
What do you think of women in the military? Do you think they have got to be involved in every aspect or do you think their roles should be limited?