Is it true? All it takes to fracture the Democratic Party is for Hillary Clinton to speak at a DLC conference and ask for a cease-fire? No matter that we have been kicking Bush’s ass for several months running. No matter that the GOP is playing defense for the first time since 1996. No, NOW is the time for the progressives to begin thinking about splitting for a third party?
Let me tell you something. This is America. We have a two-party system. In the entire history of this country the Presidency has been occupied by a Whig, a Democrat, or a Republican. Splinter parties have affected some election outcomes, most notably Woodrow Wilson’s and George W. Bush’s success. But they never have a lasting effect.
The Dixiecrats became Republicans, members of George Wallace’s American Independent Party became Republicans. Scoop Jackson’s entire staff defected to the Republican Party and became neo-conservatives. As the Democratic Party took the lead on civil rights, women’s rights, human rights, environmentalism, multilateralism, gay rights, and disarmament, the center kept peeling away until the country fell firmly in control of the Republican Party.
I’m 35 years old and I have experienced only twelve years of a Democrat in the Presidency. Four of those years can be chalked up to Gerald Ford’s decision to pardon Richard Nixon.
The idea that the left can do better in Presidential politics by having its progressive wing splinter away is fundamentally insane.
We have winner take all elections. In 1912, thanks to Teddy Roosevelt’s Bull Moose schism, the Republican nominee Howard Taft took all of two states: Utah and Vermont. Wilson became the only Democrat to get elected in a 36 year window.
The debate rages on about why the Democrats keep losing elections. On the left, it’s a certitude that we lose because we don’t stand up for what we believe and differentiate ourselves enough from the Republicans. In the center, it’s a certitude that we lose because we are too far ahead of the rest of country on gay rights, or we are perceived as too soft on national security issues.
We have DLC governors in the following states: Wisconsin, North Carolina, Michigan, Delaware, Arizona, Pennsylvania, New Mexico, Kansas, Iowa, and Virginia. They are all either Bush states or swing states in Presidential elections.
The DLC’s philosophy is annoying. Their constant attacks on the left-wing of the party are insufferable. Their propensity to run interference for George W. Bush is absolutely deplorable. But the solution is not to cede our party to the centrists by splitting for some wasteland of irrelevancy where our only realistic ambition is to increase the GOP’s margin of victory.
No, the solution is to beat the DLC by out organizing them, by out fundraising them, and by tolerating them where they have success, as we expect them to tolerate us where we have success.
The Civil War was the only event in American history so divisive as to allow for the death of one of the two ruling parties, and the birth of a new one. We live in a divisive age, but we are not about to take up arms against each other.
The Democratic Party has its policy and ideological fault lines. We cannot unite around trade policy, or gay marriage, or the unilateral withdrawal from Iraq, or opposition to the Patriot Act, or universal health care, or even, it appears, the absolute sanctity of Roe. But what we can unite around is our opposition to the kleptocracy and corruption running rampant in the highest reaches of the Republican Party. We can unite around clean and open government.
Progressives are entitled to stand for something positive, even if we can’t get the consensus of the centrists to sign onto our platform. And we have the right to call for universal health care. We have the right to call for fair trade policies. We have a right to insist on the sanctity of Roe.
We should recruit primary challengers for Democrats that refuse to stand with us on these issues, and others. Perhaps our candidates could appear on the ballot as Progressive Democrats, but still be members of the Democratic Party. But, in the end, all this talk of leaving the party is self-defeating. This is not parliamentary democracy. If we lose by one vote, we might as well have lost by a million, or fifty million.
Third parties have a role to play in American politics. That role is to punish the dominant party when they begin to stray from the mainstream consensus in this country. Their role is not to fracture the minority party, when the majority power is out of control. The only third-party movement we should be seeing in this country should be made up of disillusioned Republicans that want the party of Lincoln, Teddy, and Ike to act like a Grand Old Party again.
I agree Booman. I’ve been away from the computer for the past couple of days so I haven’t read the full DLC fallout (crap). While I may hate their positions of many issues, the reality is: the Republican party is so “Stepford” or lockstep as Hillary put it, that we can’t afford to splinter before they do. Their ideals are abhorrent to us progressives, but the fact remains that they will remain united and therefore win elections (!Deity forbid) until we also unite and defeat them electorally through our U.S. democratic process. I’m probably talking crazy, but this is an observation I have made over the past couple of elections.
“This is not parliamentary democracy. If we lose by one vote, we might as well have lost by a million, or fifty million”
I’m gonna say it: the structure of our federal government is not at all democratic, and should be drastically changed.
We need a structure where, if 10% of the population has some 3rd opinion in politics, they get 10% of the power. Less than 1/2 the population votes for EITHER major party, even in presidential elections. Most of the people don’t agree with either party most of the time. I think that much is pretty clear.
While i’m talking about structural reforms, why is it so hard to get the least popular president ever out of office? (he probably still beats hoover at the end of his term, to be fair) In a real democracy, if people think an elected leader no longer represents them, they can vote them out. recalled. the end. I think politicians should have to do more than sound good during the month before elections, they should actually have to work FOR THE PEOPLE every single day.
If this were a real democracy, why would we tax the poorest most heavily? Why would health care, and jobs, and education be so hard for most people to obtain? Why would Enron-types get less jail time than drug offenders? Why would we torture people?
These are all things that wouldn’t exist in a true democracy. These things would NEVER pass a vote, and the leaders who implemented them would NEVER be allowed to stay in power.
Our problem is much deeper than what the platforms of either party happen to be. Our problem is that there’s no mechanism to represent the minority in an election, and there’s no way to hold any of the leadership accountable between elections.
strengths and weaknesses of our system. You pointed out many of the weaknesses, but its strength is in its stability. There is a strong centrifugal pull toward the center. This is a pain in the ass for progressives, but it is a pain in the ass for fundamentalists as well. With the possible exception of JFK, we haven’t had a coup attempt in this country since 1933. And that coup attempt never got very far.
My philosophy on voting is that you should act as though your vote is actually a pick. Someone comes to you and says: “Who would you rather be President, Bush or Gore.” You say: “Neither, they are both idiots that don’t represent me. I’d rather have Nader.” And they say, “Sorry, you only have two choices, Bush or Gore.” And you say, “In that case, Gore.”
I worked my ass off for Bradley. I really had to hold my nose to vote for Gore. But I did it because it was the only vote that made sense. If I had the power to choose, and those were my only two choices, then I would choose Gore.
The key is to win the primaries and get the right guy or gal to be the nominee. Right now all the power players for the Democratic nomination are centrists. We need a candidate.
The problem there is that too many (mostly on the left) are too willing to allow the center to be moved (mostly to the right).
The economy, culture and society are galloping forward at an accelerating pace. The system meanwhile is virtually standing still. The Republicans know this and they base their political strategies and their business plans on it.
We’ve relocated all our important public discourse into private mass media where neither citizens nor society have the right to speak. Given the stable system we have that is premised on an informed citizenry exercising rights to speak, assemble, petition etc., that’s beyond insane.
Our entire practical campaign focus is to dream up cartoonish images and slogans for tricking the electorate into selecting us, because the United States of America does not have the information infrastructure available to transmit a simple intelligent sentence to the electorate.
It’s not going to matter much whether we have a parliamentary or republican structure of government, until somebody figures a way to establish and protect rights for the people to communicate in the private spaces we’ve moved into, as our present system establishes in the physical spaces where we once operated.
that this pull to the center has brought stability. Well over a third of the country doesn’t even vote, because they’re disaffected — either they feel powerless or they have retreated into ignorance and apathy. We have very nearly lost the republic, not because of the aberration that is the Bush Administration. This was inevitable because our democratic system is deeply flawed. We haven’t lived in anything like a democracy for years, but in a corporatocracy, masquerading as a democratic republic. We have become Rome, a disintegrating empire, distracting ignorant masses with bread and circuses, while a handful of robber barons scurry around the planet trying to protect themselves from the consequences of our inevitable destruction. The wealthiest nation on earth is spending its blood and treasure to make sure our richest citizens have a golden parachute when our national economy collapses, dragging who knows how much of the world with it. Stable, this is not.
Proportional representation. I’m all for it, but it would require an amendment to the constitution, and the way our system is designed it’s too hard to amend (which is good when it comes to the Bill of Rights) so it’s just a “bridge too far” I’m afraid. So we have to deal with the system we’ve got, and game it the best way we can.
Boy, I dunno. I’d almost be more inclined to go the other way and give each president a single six year term. I don’t think having them constantly be running a reelection campaign is necessarily what we want.
I share your frustration with all of these problems.
Unfortunately, I’m not so sanguine. There are a lot of selfish, willfully ignorant people in this country.
-Alan
I agree with your premise but you are still blaming the victims.
If there is any splintering of this party it is tantamount to fleeing a burning building… you don’t wait to see what the building will look like next week or next year, when that flames are licking at your heels.
I actually agree with Hilliary a cease fire is needed but I doubt that From will be able to keep his mouth closed for more than a week.
What I see happening is that the DLC has overstayed it’s welcome in the party and has racked up too many losses to still be credible. That Bill Clinton magic has worn thin, and most people by now understand that it was the tenacity of an incredibly gifted politician not the policies of the DLC garnered his success.
Now they are in a process of pouring old wine into new bottles… from the ashes of the DLC will rise the same shit in the form of NDN/NPI. The NDN/NPI will be the new DLC with same agenda only less abusive language directed at the Democratic base… kind of a “Kinder, Gentler DLC”
We already see how the NDN/NPI will deal with that “icky” abortion issue. Being of narrow mind some people can’t see farther than their nose that this will effect more than just those single issue feministas… if you think ANYONES rights are safe with Roberts on the bench then you are being willfully ignorant…. how much more pondering is needed to see that clearly is beyond me.
How many times does this party have to lose? The Republicans seem to have no problems winning by pandering to their base..not ours… so what is the logic that we can win win if we pander to their base.
This last Democratic establishment (following the DLC/NDN stratagy) that capitulating on Roe is somehow going to make the Dems more “winnable” is so absurd that is pathetic.
They have just set the house on fire… how many people are going to stand around and take a “wait and see” attitude while the party is steady burning the Democratic platform… is anyones guess… Hmmm…, I am just going to stand here and see if the house burns down to the ground or if the arsons realize what they have done and put it. My guess is that this Democratic establishment will get what they truly want a one party system.
No way can you tell me that NELSON of Nebraska isn’t a not so undercover Rightwing Republican. Yet, we have let him neuter our right to filibuster, erode opposition to CAFTA, erode opposition to Social Security and now force the party not to oppose the renigging of Roe… and at the same time call for support for another rightwingnut CASEY… because we must “win”.
So excuse me if all this talk of we have to elect any shitty Rightwing Republican Democrat if we are going to “Win”… win what? NOTHING just a lot of wasted money and effort.
They struck that match and poured gas all over the party… they are going to burn themselves in their attempts to “smoke out” the libruls.
I’m pointing out that no good can come from progressives leaving the party to the DLC to rule.
If we don’t like what they’re doing then we have to take the party away from them.
The only Dem leader who can lead that effort is Dean and they are already crucifying him for speaking out against the GOP… I have little faith in this take back the party. The DLC has shown that it would rather burn the party down to the ground (The Dean/Osma Iowa Ad) than let go of the reigns of power… and no, I won’t be fooled into thinking that Hilliary/DLC is somehow different than Clark/NDN… the same crap.
at the battle currently being waged between the CIA and BushCo. Who will win? It’s too early to tell.
We had a great victory by getting Dean elected chairman. Did you think they would roll over and let him run the party? We have to improve our machine and keep pushing.
I think I demonstrated that pretty definitively earlier tonight.
-Alan
you might “think” you have demonstrated something of that sort but it was another of your lame attempts to discredit Dean…
Mind if I ask what was lame about it? I sure spent a long time writing, researching, quoting, and linking just in that one post. Seems unfair for you to dismiss it in one word, as “lame”, without being more specific.
-Alan
He’s rabidly pro-life, what do you expect?
Dean is NOT pro-life. Read any of his statements in context, on this. His words have been repeatedly twisted to an amazing degree, but all it takes is a glance at a transcript to know that that he supports abortion rights.
Alan,
You demonstrated nothing. We’re aware that you have a hate-on for Dean, because he’s pro-life and generally progressive, but please leave it outside, ‘kay?
I don’t think you meant to call Dean “pro-life” but in doing so you got at least one fellow Deaniac in a tizzy. That’s the “confused” part. Where you’re just flat out wrong is in thinking I’m against abortion (I’m not); or that it would somehow bother me for a politician to be progressive (I wonder, then, why Paul Wellstone is my favourite senator of my lifetime?).
What does bother me is when people put on rose-coloured glasses and refuse to see that Dean has a career of action (as opposed to latter-day rhetoric that appeared after he left office and started running for president) that is certainly more centrist than Hillary, and which record contains some troubling pro-corporate and anti-environmental actions (including one that Wellstone called “blatant environmental racism”).
-Alan
It looks as though the thugs have or are acheiving what they wanted to do, split the party.
Tis treachorous waters we tread.
I agree with both sides on a lot of these issues, so will they force us, to choose the lesser of the two evils amongst our own?
It could work beautifully, but for who. Caution is the important factor in this battle, in order to win the war ; )
the thugs didnt split the party, not yet. sell our reproductive rights out though and its throw the bathwater out with the baby time.
save your pep talk. . rally round the flag boys doesnt mention girls does it?
i wont vote for hillary. she voted to support bush’s war and she making piece with the jane crow crowd.
who’s piece?
my piece.
you go there inn 08?
all you democrats can besa me cula.
so true bayprairie, so true!
It’s so frustrating, isn’t it?
What I think we have to face is that at the presidential level, our party has long faced an uphill climb. When there is an incumbent president running, the old truism about it being a referendum about that incumbent consistently holds. And Democrats have managed to get presidents into office a few times due to the country’s dissatisfaction with the Republican incumbent.
But in open elections, with no incumbent, the Democrat (JFK) only won once since…I’m not sure when, but if it ever happened before, it was well over a hundred years ago. And JFK only won by a hair. (Well, I guess Gore won too.) I tend to think, in fact, that ’60, ’68, and ’00 were only as close as they were because Nixon and Shrub were poor candidates, partially neutralising the GOP’s inherent edge.
Going to the left on a national scale, unfortunately, just isn’t going to materialise a majority for us, no matter how much we might wish it so. Not unless we dump some of those Southern states or something. I do have hope for the long term, though, as immigration and urbanisation continue apace. The less white and rural this country gets, the better, politically speaking.
-Alan
Democratic winners of open elections with no incumbent:-
1960 John F. Kennedy
1884 Grover Cleveland
1856 James Buchanan
1852 Franklin Pierce
1844 James K. Polk
1836 Martin Van Buren
Democratic winners over an incumbent:-
1992 William J. Clinton
1976 James E. Carter
1932 Franklin D. Roosevelt
1912 Woodrow Wilson
1892 Grover Cleveland
1828 Andrew Jackson
From the Civil War to the Great Depression (Presidential elections from 1860 to 1928) the Republicans were the normal national governing party. Only the rather conservative President Cleveland and President Wilson interrupted the list of Republican administrations.
In 1884 Cleveland defeated the Republican, James G. Blaine, by 0.25% of the popular vote. In 1888 Cleveland won the popular vote by 0.8% (but lost to Benjamin Harrison in the Electoral College). In 1892 Cleveland won by a compartive landslide of 3.09%.
In 1912 Woodrow Wilson had the advantage of a divided opposition. Wilson secured 41.84% of the popular vote and won a great victory, but if the Republicans had not split they would probably have won. In 1916 it appeared Wilson had lost. Only the results from the west produced a 3.13% popylar vote victory.
I have gone into some detail about this earlier period of Republican dominance to demonstrate that Democratic Presidential victories were both rare and narrow.
From the New Deal to the passage of the Civil Rights Act in 1965, the Democratic party was dominant in Presidential politics. From 1932 to 1964 only President Eisenhower’s two elections interrupted Democratic administrations.
From 1968 onwards it at first appeared there was a dealignment. Fewer people were strong partisans than in earlier eras so both parties hoped to win. However, as many white southerners gradually shifted sides, the Presidential battleground became more favourable to Republicans.
The key question is whether there has now been a stable re-alignment, which will ensure that the norm will be a Republican President or if the electorate can be swayed by both parties depending upon events.
But what we can unite around is our opposition to the kleptocracy and corruption running rampant in the highest reaches of the Republican Party. We can unite around clean and open government.
This is like the filibuster capitulation. We can fight to save the filibuster just as long as we don’t use it.
What you are saying is that we can fight for “clean and open government” just as long as we don’t use it for those “icky” special issues like trade policy, or gay marriage, or the unilateral withdrawal from Iraq, or opposition to the Patriot Act, or universal health care, or even, it appears, the absolute sanctity of Roe
Thanks… for nothing.
I posted this yesterday on a thread at Maryscott O’connor’s My Left Wing. I hope some find it relevant here.
I’m surprised you dismiss this as “absurd”. I have tons of left wing friends, not to mention a mother, who read Chomsky and Zinn and absolutely are “anti-American” and “anti-patriotic”. In my heart of hearts I sympathise with them: after all, the U.S. has done a lot of bad things around the world over the years, and what most Americans call “patriotism” I see as simpleminded jingoism.
But–and I’m almost reluctant to say this in public, but at least I’m not representing the party or any candidate–the political reality is that we have to play the game. Our candidates need to campaign on stages loaded up with red-white-and-blue bunting, and they’d better come out strongly in favour of the Pledge of Allegiance, “under God” and all, no matter what their true feelings. Otherwise, they’re going to get killed at the ballot box, no Diebold tampering needed.
-Alan
I’m one of those 60’s lefties the DLC likes to insult. I have no idea if you were around during that time, but I have to say that you seem to have a thorough misunderstanding of the dynamics and the motivations that defined that time period.
As a frequent protester and contributorto other actions, I never came across any fellow protester who expressed anti-american or unpatriotic sentiments. Never.
We were organizing, protesting, attempting to get the truth out, *because we were patriots, because we did love our country and didn’t want to see not only thousands of lives thrown away for no good reason, but also because we didn’t want to see the integrity and stature of the country so disgraced by the warmongers andliars who inhabited the halls of power in Washington.
DLC mouthpieces like Will Marshall don’t seem to be able to grasp these fundamental realities. For whatever reason he, along with folks like Todd Gitlin, seem to have the whole motivation thing backwards.
You talk about how we have to play the game, but which game would you have us play? The repub game where we have to perform to their standards like cheerleaders for the Bush regime’s war? the game where we have to ignore the constant, relentless barrage of lies and accusations they direct at us?
I would suggets we play the game alright, but not their game. We challenge all their lies all the time. We keep deconstructing the idea the GOP, the DLC and the enabling media are spreading that anyone who opposes the Bush war and most of the Bush regime policies is somehow an irrational extremist or an atavistic throwback to the 60’s. We keep on making the case by using truth to expose their lies, and by articulating those truths in a way that reveals clear alternative solutions to the complex problems. (I realize that truth isn’t that important to lots of folks, but as things get worse, truth will start becoming more important, so we need to work on truthtelling in a way that captures people’s attention both intellectually and emotionally).
If we keep getting pulled in to their game, we lose. There are times when compromise is appropriate, but I think of compromise as sort of like casino gambling; the more you engage in it, the greater the certainty that you’ll lose everything.
I wasn’t there in the ’60s (well, I did technically participate unknowingly in a Vietnam War protest: my parents put me on their shoulders and held a sign saying “we don’t want him to grow up and get drafted” or something along those lines). But I know what I see now. I’m not, let me make it clear, actually denouncing people for being “anti-patriotic” or “anti-American”. They have valid reasons. I’m just insisting that these people are a significant part of the modern left, and that when we play the game of electoral politics and try to win over swing voters, Democrats need to keep this group of supporters hidden.
To go back to our dispute over whether this is real: have you read Ward Churchill? What is he if not anti-American?
Or let me quote from two books I have right next to me: The Chomsky Reader and Howard Zinn’s A People’s History of the U.S.. First, from the introduction to the Chomsky book:
Is that not “anti-American”?
Now, Zinn:
Is that not “anti-patriotic”?
These are thinkers that are very popular on the left. And again, they make a good case, and one I mostly agree with. You’re not going to win elections by making this case, however.
-Alan
“…denouncing people for being “anti-patriotic” or “anti-American”, and that is true. But you definitely seem to be accusing a broad swath of people of being both of those things when in fact virtually none of them are.
Chomsky, for instance, in the quote you cite is criticizing the ideological process of indoctrination that permeates, and ultimately damages our society’s ability to recognize and accept responsibility for transgressions perpetrated in our name. Do you think it’s anti-American to express such thoughts? Do you not think that if we could better articulate this idea now, (in the face of the relentless propaganda machine of the right), that such arguments might be helpful? Do you not think that we could, for instance, make the case that, while there is no legitimate excuse for terrorism, that we see that in order to more effectively combat the terrorist threats we need to understand what it is about us and our behavior that’s caused us to be regarded as such a high priority target?
Even Zinn, (not one of my favorites), argues more against the inculcation of the nationalistic fervor that has so damaged so many other supposedly civilized societies, and that had also damaged our own by corrupting our society with the rose colored glasses of denial. I don’t regard his rhetoric as artful, nor do I believe such rhetoric would be useful in our situation now, but his point is extremely valid, goes to the very heart of the most basic affliction we have as a society, and is not anti-American in and of itself.
I would argue that we can make the case that Chomsky was making in your citation, and Zinn too, and that we can make these cases better than they have and in a way that affirms the very patriotism and love of country you seem to doubt many on the left have. We can make these cases by acknowledging our failings, by being big enough and posessed of enough self-honesty to admit our transgressions openly; and affirming that we are better than that; that we strive to become more civilized, (that we condemn torture, for instance, because it is beneath the principles we believe in); that we are committed to the ideals that have made us great and have (previously) set us apart as a dynamic and prosperous culture that people around the world have sought to emulate.
This is the America I’m a part of, and it’s the America this Bush regime has disgraced. My pro-America perspective requires me to be opposed to the Bush regime and their destructive policies. If only enough of our own Democratic politicians would stand up and start articulating these things on a regular basis, I’d be willing to bet they’d find great resonance, and strong support at the ballot box, all across the land.
I don’t believe either Zinn or Chomsky would agree with your take. They would ask you “In what era were we great?” and whatever era you’d name, they’d be able to point to any number of facts that show we were not so great at that time.
I think, frankly, that they are right. I mean, at what time in our history were we not involved in either domestic racism and oppression, and/or shady/imperialistic actions abroad, that caused a great deal of human suffering? I believe historians and other scholars should keep the spotlight on these facts, and not give in to a false “American exceptionalism”.
But if we want to be pragmatic about making the government more progressive (or at least less reactionary), that’s a whole different kettle of fish. We who struggle in electoral politics need to publicly disassociate ourselves from, even disavow, those leftist thinkers. Because the percentage of Americans who will be receptive to these ideas (which involve accepting a certain burden of guilt) is always going to be a small one.
In fact, it’s risky for me to even have this discussion on a public site. Imagine what fun the freepers could have with my post! (Which is why, on the off chance they did start passing this around and got some traction with it (“look what they are saying on this Democratic site about tricking the public”), I’d want anyone officially involved with the party or with Democratic candidates to denounce me in no uncertain terms and make it clear I don’t speak for them–even if deep down, they know I’m right.)
-Alan
my point whether Chomsky or Zinn agree with my perspective or not.
My point about greatness is this. That we, (and by we I refer to many of us throughout the history of the country), have understood and acknowledged that much of what was being done in the name of our country was wrong, and that our greatness lies in the strength of our desire and willingness to work for correcting those injustices and seeing that we don’t allow them to continue. Certainly we don’t have a perfect record on such matters, but the indisputable fact remains that many of our citizens have consistently stood for and sought to uphold the highest principles our nation was founded on despite the depradations of the greedy and the powerful.
This is the greatness we can speak about, and this is the kernel of greatness that lies within so many of us that we can speak to. It’s not contrary to Chomsky and Zinn. We, like what Chomsky and Zinn said, need to acknowledge the misdeeds. That is a point we need to be big enough to not shy away from. Then we simply take that one step further by going beyond the truncated scope of Chomsky/Zinn. We use the acknowledgement of transgression as an important component in the way we describe the greatness of spirit with which so many of us have worked tirelessly, nobly,to stop the transgressions and to make our culture one of mutual respect and opportunity for all.
We don’t ignore reality and our responsibilities to it in order to advance our principles. We embrace reality, we remain true to the big principles rather than selling out too easily for partisan gain.
I am not an ideological purist, nor am I someone who doesn’t understand the duplicitous nature of pragmatism.
All I’m saying is that if we start out by openly advocating betraying our own principles we might as well be right wing republicans.
First, to avoid repeating myself, let me invite you to read my exchange with Recordkeeper just above.
But I don’t believe what Chomsky and Zinn believe is immaterial to your original point at all. Like Recordkeeper (and see specifically my second reply) it sounds like you do not share this kind of anti-American outlook, but instead…well, again, see that post. But your original claim that sparked this thread was that it was “absurd” for the DLC to observe an “anti-American, anti-patriotic rubric” at work on the left.
Now, you and people like you (who see yourselves as patriotic and pro-American while being willing to point out America’s faults) may outnumber the truly anti-American left. But the latter group is not insignificant by any means, and that was my original point that I don’t think you refute just by stating your own beliefs. The point of that point, if you will, was that if we don’t want to go down in flames in national or swing-district elections, we have to disassociate ourselves from that segment of the left.
There is a larger issue here about pragmatism vs. “standing up for our principles” that I’ve been engaging for the last few days, and let me continue to do so here in regard to a couple other things you said:
Absolutely it’s duplicitous–you’ll get no argument from me! Because (and again, I’m kinda glad that nobody–including, hopefully, any freeper lurkers–is still reading this thread) we CAN’T WIN without being duplicitous. And neither can they, btw: despite all the claims I’ve seen here that the GOP runs unabashedly to the right, that just isn’t so. Remember “compassionate conservatism”? “Uniter not a divider”? “We’ve got to change the culture” (as opposed to “I’ll try to overturn Roe v. Wade”)? The party that “stands on principle” will ride that principle right over Niagara Falls.
That’s silly. If we betray some of our more unrealistic (given the current electorate) principles so that we can have half a loaf rather than none, we’re still a damn sight better than right wing Republicans!
And frankly, I don’t believe most of you who make these kinds of statements really back them to the hilt. What you’re really doing is drawing your pragmatic line in a different spot than I am, and claiming yours is ideologically pure and free of that awful “pragmatism”. And that’s kind of unfair, frankly.
If I’m wrong, how come most of the “anti-pragmatist” camp was behind white male Howard Dean, who pissed off the left enough in Vermont that a third party Progressive candidate got 9.5% of the vote in his last election? How come you guys didn’t back Kucinich, or Mosely-Braun? For that matter, why not go further and try to nominate a Marxist Chicano lesbian for president?
Or, a little more seriously, how about an atheist? I’m an atheist myself, and so are probably twenty million other Americans. Most of us support Democrats, but I don’t see any avowed atheists in office (correct me if I’m wrong). Nor do I want to see any. Because, again (and I know I’m repeating myself here, but this argument goes round and round and it’s hugely important), I’d rather “settle” for a candidate who’s not as bad as the Republicans, a candidate who could actually have a chance of winning. I know that an anti-capitalist, hardcore environmentalist atheist (which is what I am) could not win, so I don’t expect my candidates to represent those views.
What I’d actually like (and again, here’s the duplicity you talked about) is for them to secretly share my outlook but be able to play themselves off as Ward or June Cleaver, all-American churchgoer, so they can con the swing voters, get into POWER, and sneak in as much of the left’s agenda as they can get away with. And frankly, I find it endlessly frustrating that this isn’t what we ALL want!
-Alan
essentials of what I’m saying. Perhaps my argument is not clear enough, or perhaps you’re so set on your own view that another perspective is not possible, (and possibly the reverse is true, with my own determination to believe what I want to believe blinding me to another’s perspective.
So rather than than slip-sliding past each other with clever semantics, I’d be interested in learning, from your perspective, which principles you are wiling to betray in order to win elections? What are the ingredients in the “half-a-loaf” your willing to accept and regard as a victory? Or possibly the list of those principles you’d not be willing to compromise is shorter, and thus easier to define. And as for the degree to which you advocate lying to the public, do you see a point at which such lying simply goes too far, to a point where it becomes counter productive?
I’m willing to trust the research of experts like Peter Hart and basically game it so we give up the least amount we have to to get over the hump.
Another expert I recently read about that I found impressive was Steve Jarding, who–along with his more colourful partner “Mudcat” Saunders, helped engineer Mark Warner’s victory in Virginia. I know the source of this article is the “enemy camp” but I strongly urge you to get past the “messenger” issue here:
I do want to say that I draw the line at Mudcat’s embrace of the Confederate flag as a “bridge too far”. Still, it does show that a lot of people embrace that odious symbol without really understanding what it represents (I honestly don’t believe Mudcat himself is racist).
I’d also not be keen to compromise on support for legal abortion, for raising the minimum wage, for supporting unions, for protecting the environment, for enforcing the Bill of Rights, for verifiable voting, or for equal rights in housing and employment for all, regardless of race, gender, or sexual orientation. But I’d be willing to throw overboard, for the time being, such issues (which I do in my heart support) as gay marriage, gun control, and getting “God” off money and the Pledge of Allegiance.
-Alan
The points I’ve been attempting to make do not in any way suggest “writing off” any particular constituency. Indeed I advocate well crafted messages based on both an understanding that effective communication with a broader swath of the electorate is vital, and on a realistic appraisal of what’s “deliverable” within one election cycle.
Curiously, as if in direct contravention of your argument for the sorts of tactical compromise the DLC is now infamous for, it is they who are the ones who’ve pretty much “abandoned” these demographic groups, (such as the “South”), while Howard Dean is the one implementing a “50 state” strategy.
My basic point is still that we can communicate effectively and meaningfully with a far broader electorate and we can do so without having to compromise principles that are important, and without having to repudiate the broader rhetoric of the left. We don’t need to broadcast incendiary rhetoric, throw it in peoples faces in the hopesof rallying them to our cause, but neither do we have to categorically reject their sentiments in order to curry favor. We don’t need to extol the virtues of Michael Moore’s perspectives, but we can find a way to craft more tactical ways of communicating the essence of the principles that underlie his views, principles that have to do with honesty in government and true accountability for those who violate the public trust.
We’re going to see who, if any, in the Democratic party does actually make the effort to connect with a broader swath of voters in a way that stimulates support. My bet is that whatever attempts in this vein are crafted by the DLC types, (including Hillary), will ultimately ring hollow to many of those folks out here who are hungry for something genuine and sincere, even if they don’t realize it.
As a final note, the fact that you say you’re not “keen” to compromise on those certain issues you mentioned seems to me to be exactly the sort of equivocation most of those voters you say you want to get will not put much stock in.
I liked the sentiments in your post for the most part (except that I still agree with Mudcat that Hillary is being pretty smart in the way she reaches out to swing voters). But I’m puzzled as to why you think that my setting certain issues aside as non-negotiable amounts to “equivocation”.
-Alan
Only because you said you were not “…keen” to compromise…”. “Keen” is the word that prompted my remark as it’s not definitive.
I might not be “keen” on having a root canal, but I’ll do it in the end. “Keen” leaves the door open, so to speak, for comproise.
That’s all I meant by it.
Ohhhh…no, it was more of a rhetorical flourish. Though if it were somehow laid out on a silver platter: “you can have everything else if you compromise on this one thing, otherwise you get nothing” I’d have to think about it, I guess. So I suppose I don’t have any true “line in the sand” but there are certain things I’d be very loath to give up unless I was absolutely convinced there was no other way.
-Alan
No, it isn’t. It’s an application of the democratic, first amendment protected, right — nay, responsibility — of Americans to criticize their government for the things it does wrong.
No, it’s anti-nationalistic. Patriotism is love of country, which can be expressed through the action of trying to improve it through the voicing of complaint. Nationalism places the state above the people as institution, and measures people by their servility to the state, labeling expressions of individual liberty as, among other things, anti-patriotic. Nationalism is: the “my country right or wrong” mentality, the jingoism, the warmongering, the xenophobia, etc. Big difference.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.” — President Theodore Roosevelt
I think we may have a problem with definitions here, at least in the first case. Your response would have been appropriate had I asked, “Is that not UN-American?” But I asked if it was ANTI-American. When someone says that “the very foundations of American civilization and its economic life are at war with the prospects for human freedom”, it’s hard to read that as pro-American or even neutral toward the U.S.
We could quibble about nationalism vs. patriotism, but how about this: can you find a single example of either Zinn or Chomsky expressing anything that could be called “pro-American” or “patriotic”?
I mean, we don’t disagree that many in the European left are anti-American, right? Well, there is a solid contingent within the American left which shares the European view. I don’t know why this is so controversial. Frankly, I’d find it rather pathetic if intelligent leftists couldn’t see, or admit, the obvious truths about this country’s ugly, imperial capitalistic history (which continue to the present day), although I do think we have a few bright points like the Bill of Rights (when they are actually enforced, which is all too rarely). But again, for political purposes we have to pretend otherwise. Hey, maybe that’s what you are doing! If so, bully for you. 🙂
-Alan
My husband needs the computer, so I’ll be brief. We could certainly argue about semantics all day, and that is generally fruitless. But, I stand by my earlier post. No, it is not anti-American to criticize the government. Our founding fathers even provided for the possibility that we revolt and chuck the entire system if it no longer serves the people. Crazy hippies, our founding fathers. I think it is the height of patriotism to do what Zinn and Chomsky do. I may not agree with everything they say, but to ignore the dark underbelly of this great nation is to make the same mistake we make as individuals, if we are in denial of our shadow selves, only on a much grander scale. To address these things is the only way to heal them. To do other than be honest about this country’s shortcomings is shallow and shortsighted. I love this country and I feel a responsibility to my countrymen, so I do not hesitate to protest and seek redress when the government does evil things, and I don’t think for one minute that this makes me anti-American or unpatriotic.
It sounds like you’re not anti-American, or unpatriotic. You’re of the school of thought (which I share to a degree) that the right to dissent, to try to redress wrongs, is an example of something that “makes America great”. But I still submit that Chomsky and Zinn, and their legion of followers, do not see it in that light. They would look at this issue much more cynically, I believe, and argue that:
(1) That supposed “right to dissent” is all too often illusory and/or selectively applied (based on race/class/gender); and that in any case what this country needs is not just rhetorical dissent but revolution.
(2) (and this is the real kicker) The oppressed peoples of the world, not to mention the environment, would be better off if the U.S. simply vanished off the face of the earth.
-Alan
but I believe the words you quote;
are actually written by (James) Peck, not Chomsky. Personally, I don’t agree with that particular statement in it’s totality. However, I have tremendous respect for Peck because of his incredibly courageous work on behalf of civil rights for all. Because of this, I can understand how he might say such a thing, and I can forgive him for using too broad a brush of condemnation. His broader point, that we are a nation that has serious endemic problems that need to be addressed is relevant today no less than it was in the 60’s, and as I’ve said elsewhere, it will ultimately be to our advantage, as patriots and lovers of our country, to seek to address those problems forthrightly, and to provide the impetus for our fellow citizens to do the same.
I feel I should respond. In many ways you are right about what should be happening in the progressive wing of the Democratic Party. But like all serious disillusionment, the resentment I’m feeling right now has been building up over time.
Join with other progressives to choose and fund progressive candidates? Women’s rights are being thrown out of the progressive platform only slightly less quickly then the DLC’s. Look back at the liberal blogs ever since the pope ate pie. The fact is that women are being marginalized on all fronts- and I can’t suck it up and GOTV that will diminish my right to autonomy.
All right- I’m seriously pissed and feel like sandblasting something. I’ll give BooMan’s ideas some thought….BUT
unless I see some attempts to respect and include women in the Progressive side of things then I’m not part of anyone’s posse.
Time for coffee. There is a slight chance I’ll be more optimistic.
as we expect them to tolerate us where we have success.
Fly. Ointment.
Booman …
This isn’t about just Hillary’s pathetic DEMAND for a “cease-fire.” This isn’t about just the continuous round of attacks from the Corpotrolls at the DLC. This isn’t about just the Vichy Dems selling out women, the poor, labor, gays and other struggling Americans in vote after vote after vote.
It’s about election after election after election, bill after bill after Bill … the left fights for the party & receives NOTHING in return. Who did GOTV last time? Mainly independent groups on the left and labor, with little or no coordination from the party. Who floods DC w/ calls, emails and letters when another email comes from the party or a leading Senator or Representative? We do. Who fought for the votes to be counted in Ohio? The left, the Greens & the Libertarians. Where was our candidate? Conceding and flying to Europe, that’s where. Who raises money, often money that people could very well use for something else? The left does. Who’s concerns receive support? Not the left, that’s for damned sure.
There is NO minority party, there is only a majority party and a shambling corpse of what was once a party, living on the life blood of the left, then disgarding it once it’s convenient. It’s a skeleton, a vampire … it stands for nothing but its continued existence and serving the masters who give it a beautiful gilt-and-velvet coffin to rest in away from the harsh light shining on its own corruption.
It’s time for those on the left to stop feeding it. I will only offer my support to office holders and candidates who support my values. If Hillary or some other corporate hack is at the top of our ticket, that little bar on my optical scan ballot will remain EMPTY.
Support doesn’t protect us from them. Boots on the ground doesn’t protect us from them. Passion and direct action don’t protect us from them. They demonize us when we resist them, and they demonize us when we help.
There is no minority party. There is only Dr. Frankenstein and the shambling hulk that was stitched together from the dead.
very dramatic, but I’m not interested in that rhetoric. We have work to do. Clinton was a decent President. I don’t support his wife, or the DLC, but I can tell the difference between the Clintons and the Bushes. If you can’t, if you have no preference between them, then we can find no common ground.
sure there are differences, but the fact remains that Clinton was a great Republican president. when the minority party can’t be an opposition party because it is beholden to the same corporate interests as the majority party, then what good is it? the Dems are signing their own death warrant if they don’t shake things up and embrace the progressive element in the party.
you’re right that we don’t have a parliamentary democracy, but the system as it is CAN NOT continue. it simply does not work. when two parties become mere factions of one corporate party with progressives, unions, minorities and many others (including libertarians) left out in the cold, it’s no wonder no one votes in this country.
the system WILL continue. There is zero chance of amending the constitution in any meaningful way that will change the two party system. Third parties are spoilers that punish the party they are most closely affiliated with.
If you think the Dems are out of whack, look at the Republicans. The solution is extreme backlash against the Republicans, not the Democrats.
An economic collapse a la 1929 will lead to a progressive era. If Plamegate brings high level indictments, if DeLay is indicted, that can bring in a brief progressive era. If the war in Iraq ends in disaster and humiliation, that can bring in a progessive era. None of these possibilities are very fun to contemplate. But when one party goes badly out of whack (even if it carries the other party in their direction) there are eventually consequences and the pendulum swings back.
If we want to raise our influence and reduce the DLC’s influence we HAVE to be able to raise the same amount of money that the corporations give out. We have to have clout. We need our own slates of candidates. But we can’t leave the party because that is just ceding the country to the GOP.
…. You are wrong that a third party has never made a big impact. The Republicans started as a third party. Their emergence effectively killed off the Whigs. But it took the issue of slavery to spawn their emergence.
There is no parallel issue in our time, and the winner-take-all/electoral college system does ultimately result in dominance by two parties.
We must recognize that those two parties do evolve. The GOP of today is not the GOP of Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, Eisenhower, or even Goldwater. The Democratic party has changed, too. Much of the evolution of the two parties has been a switch in positions over minority rights, with the southern bigots switching from Dems to Republicans.
I am registered Green myself. I almost always vote Dem, esp. national races, but I want the Dems to see a strong party to their left in the hopes it might pull them left a bit.
I speculated a couple of years ago that the right and left might both fracture. The moderates in the GOP shedding the wacko fringe right and joining with the DLC in a new moderate conservative party, while the rest of the left reconstitutes itself as a more liberal alternative. I can dream can’t I?
except I specifically mentioned the civil war as the only time in history that a major party has died.
As for your fantasy, where would all the religious fundamentalists go if McCain and Lieberman formed a center/right party?
Would they just stay home and build fertilizer bombs?
We can’t afford to lose the middle any more than we afford a vibrant Green Party.
The only way we could afford either of those scenarios is if we made election day a national holiday and passed a law that said you have to vote once every four years or you become ineligible for any government benefits. I’m all for putting those things on the platform, but until that day…
and thus the pandering to the center right.
But if the left is strong then they might begin to pay attention to our vision. I could use a little pandering!
I was responding to this:
But you did mention the demise of the Whigs, so I was a bit hasty in my response.
As for where the fundies would go… the same place most of the fringe on either side is – a third party. Or they can go to South Carolina, where the Christian Exodus movement has decided to go.
I think we can afford a vibrant Green Party, so long as the Dems nominate a candidate that the Greens can endorse. Political coalitions are the norm in most systems, but ours tends to work against them. However, that doesn’t make them impossible. I also think a vibrant Green Party could be afforded in most cases at the local, state, and House levels.
I’m with you when it comes to election reforms. Voting Day holiday (or multi-day voting); IRV, condorcet, or some other ranked voting system; mandatory voting; elimination of the electoral college; etc.
I also think it would help if we made changes at the state level. For instance, in order to have a candidate on the ballot in some states, your candidate must have received a certain percentage of the vote in the previous election. This often means Greens have to vote green to insure they get a slot on the ballot next time. This is a coalition crusher. As these are state statutes, we should be able to make changes more easily than with the federal laws.
But, I think other election reforms (paper trail, neutral voting board replacing partisan Sec’y of State, etc) need to be a higher priority at this point. We need to make sure our votes are counted accurately before we worry about anything else.
You make a great point, that this bloc switched from Democratic to Republican (except maybe in local races) over a period stretching from the mid-60s to the mid-90s. And unfortunately, they are very powerful when it comes to presidential politics. It’s mathematically possible to win without getting any electoral votes from them (Gore nearly pulled it off), but you really have to thread the needle perfectly.
-Alan
Unfortuantely, many of the bigots are still in our party. They’ve just discovered that it’s more fashionable to be against women’s rights (for example, to take a pro-life stance) than it is to be against minority rights.
I certainly understand where you’re coming from. But IMO the stakes are higher now than before. We can’t go back to just the same old DLC once Bush is out of power. That will mean most of the damage he has done (and will do) will remain in place.
I just feel that if now’s not the time to challenge the whole structure, then when can we? Certainly, there’s little hope of getting IRV instituted nationally or of getting rid of the Electoral Kindergarten. But, I think there is an opportunity to support truly progressive candidates, movements and parties – now more than any time I can remember. I mean, when it comes down to it wouldn’t we rather have that 50% of the population that never votes excited about an ACTUAL OPTION? Sort of reminds me of “Brewster’s Millions”. Maybe we can get Soros to underwrite a “None of the Above” campaign?
Where have you gone John Anderson and Ross Perot?
Sure I can … it’s the same difference btwn Eisenhower and Reagan. Both Republicans. Speaking of “rhetoric” … pot meet kettle.
No, he was a fairly SUCCESSFUL President, until Li’l Bubba decided to play tonsil hockey in the Oval Office. He was successful at cementing much of the REPUBLICAN agenda. Expanding the death penalty. Opening labor markets up to multinational corporations to exploit workers and pad their profits, profits which continue to go largely undertaxed because he did little or nothing about our fucked up tax system. He made the “drug war” even more draconian, and shredded the what was left of the tattered social safety net. Thanks to him, our health care system is all-but broken.
Ask the mother working two jobs at min. wage w/o any affordable childcare if he was a decent president. Ask all of the children in college now who can’t reason their way out of a paperbag because he failed to do anything about an educational system that the Republicans have been dismantling w/ their tax deform zealotry.
What you call “rhetoric” I call righteous disgust. It is no more “rhetoric” than veiled calls to fall in line and be “cohesive” behind a party that is about to abandon women’s health care in pursuit of the mythical center, which is apparently in the land between RIGHT and FAR RIGHT. That’s pretty much the last group in our base of voters left to throw out.
I’m done with the National Party unless I see more signs that Dean and the others are saving it from themselves, but I will be working toward that from independent groups and myself … not a penny to the DNC, DSCC or DCCC. If a candidate supports my values, I’ll support him/her as best I can directly.
The guy had many failings, and you list some valid ones. However, there is more to the picture. His Supreme Court appointees seem to be fairly decent even if not ideal; and he successfully blocked a lot of what Gingrich et al were trying to do.
Perhaps most important and too often overlooked, though, is the impact a president has on all those Cabinet level executive agencies. Not every appointee there was a peach, but a lot of them were real good people. And their policies flowed downward so that a lot of good was done in ways that don’t get reported or noticed much except by extreme policy wonks. That’s what my “pragmatic” hope is for Democratic presidencies in the near and middle term: that the president present a moderate image to the people and not overreach on highly visible, hot-button issues and thus play into the hands of the GOP; but at the same time make all those quiet but crucial appointments that get the work done in the trenches.
-Alan
again, that just reinforcing that he was an Eisenhower Republican. They did some good stuff w/ regulations, but nothing too outlandish or terribly progressive. They helped cement the Republican agenda, but the better Republicans, not the wackjobs in charge now.
As for the court, his nominees put property uber alles, just like the Republicans, while still trying to keep the government out our bedrooms. That’s good. Bless them. I don’t buy this “moderate” image thing. It just reinforces the “Dems don’t stand for anything” problem.
If I had my pick, our candidate would be Feingold. This is the part where everyone types he’s:
Still the best Progressive on the national scene.
But I wouldn’t support him to be the presidential nominee.
-Alan
I see a much darker picture here. What makes you believe there is going to be another presidential election? At this point in time what I see is that if we can’t stop the progress of this admin. by the time 08 gets here there won’t be a Democracy. They have already done so much damage to our Constitution and in three more years they can completely kill it.
The people in the DLC are positioning themselves for either of two events. One, somehow we rid ourselves of this mess and they can step in and take power. I don’t think they would be much different than what we have now. Or two, the neo-cons remain in power and they have shown them they are really like them so they can join them and reap what ever rewards they can.
Many of you believe that somehow you can fight this the old fashion way, the way we always have. This mess with Rove, etc. is probably the last chance we will ever have to do it that way. Should it fail, watch out, they will never let it happen again. We are hanging by that thread right now and if we fall there be monsters in the deep.
It isn’t that I don’t have hope but I see blackness looming and I don’t think you understand how dangerous this all is.
I agree with much of this… there are no viable third parties, and probably never will be (it seems to me that mostly they don’t even take themselves seriously), so the left pretty much has to work within the framework of the parties we do have in order to be effective. I voted for both Gore and Kerry, even though I wasn’t particularly fond of either of them, because I thought either would be better than Bush.
Cohesion doesn’t mean capitulation, though. While the DLC/centrist types have a place in the national party, as should all who view themselves as Democrats, we don’t have to accept them as the “Leaders” of the party. Just as one more information booth in our Big Tent.
National politics are important, of course, but we’ll not get the national leaders we want unless we work to change the facts on the ground locally. Dean has started, with his “50 State Strategy”, and that’s a good thing, but we need way more than that.
As I’ve mentioned before, like Visa, Republicans are already everywhere we want to be. They are on the school boards, trying to manipulate what educational process we have left, and to introduce non science into the science classrooms (at a minimum). They are also working in other ways to completely undermine our public educational system. We need to be there as well, and instead.
The day after the past elections were over, there were news reports of right wingers implementing their long term strategy of holding meetings in church basements and other places such as that, to begin to build up support for this or that anti someone or something initiative/proposal that they were working to get into local legislation. Where is our stuff like that?
They are (mostly through various religious related organizations) among the poor, (of any color, although the messages are tailored to the various groups), providing some sort of help, limited tho it may be, and lots of propaganda about how the only way forward is to vote for Republicans, and so on.
I think going after Rove and Bush and so on nationally is definitely important. It helps weaken them, and also shows the entrenched criminality of the party, which can only be a good thing. I think opposing the DLC, and their ilk, nationally and locally, is very important, for reasons everyone has expressed.
But if you walk down any street, anywhere, you’re not likely to find many people who even know anything about any of those things, or that care when they learn. So, we need to be like water, seeping in through the cracks everywhere… not ceding ground anywhere, or for anyone, standing up for our principles and for people, working on legislation, doing everything we do with a goal of making progressive principles the default… in our communities and neighborhoods, cities and states. I don’t think the US has ever actually been at that point, and it will be a long haul, but I don’t see where we have any other choice.
Nothing should be left to wither, whether it’s a national scandal of Rove or Iraq proportions, or a local one of much smaller proportions, but of much greater importance to those affected by the issue.
(Note to self: “Preview” is not “Post.”)
It was a heartfelt thank you, BooMan. I woke up this morning ranting inside my head and plastered the laptop to my thighs ready to write my own diary about this. You said much of what I was going to say, very eloquently.
But I still had a little ranting of my own to do. Here it is.
Asked a friend of mine once about the culture on our university campus, and why the academics seemed not to understand “civilians”. His response: “It’s safer in there. It’s freer out here.”
This split is between those who are “safer” and those who are “freer”. A battle of the wonks (safer) that does not include most of the general public (freer). I think those in the inner-circles of power need to take a vacation. Go home fer crissake. Get a life. Our primary in California isn’t for another 10 months, and the presidential election two years after.
If you really feel the need to engage in the process in the middle of summer, then do something constructive. Rather than argue, hold a national referendum on the issues. Start by presenting your opposing views for each issue, and your specific solution, and we’ll vote on them. One city, then county, then region, then State at a time.
You can pay for it by 1) holding the referendum online (I’ve heard blogs have a voting mechanism); and 2) firing the 5-million-dollar consultants and hiring 100 @ $50k. Put the f*ck up or SHUT the f*ck up.
Here’s one method. [WARNING: diary pimp].
There’s a huge difference between pandering to the right and capturing the center. Apologists for the DLC-types have a predeliction to blame “special interests” on the left for dividing the party. Some get more specific. Lately we’ve been hearing a lot about how it’s women who want reproductive rights who are dividing the party.
I’m sorry, but the Democratic party is not my party. If the GOP let go of their social self-righteous agenda, I’d consider voting Republican, to tell you the truth. Of course everything’s so polarized there’s little chance of that these days.
But I will not shut up about my values. And if the Dems sell reproductive rights and women’s equality up the river, like they did the social safety net, I will not vote for them. While they fall over themselves in trying to appear no different from Republicans, I wonder what happened to American values.
So when someone says that I should vote for a corporatist anti-woman pro-slavery Democrat over any Republican, I say bullshit.
And when Democrats start crying that they don’t like “in-fighting,” I say bullshit. If the Democrats don’t like criticism from the center and left, then they can get their shit together and stand for something. They can’t keep trying to be liked by everyone, right and left, and expect to get anywhere.
People like that at a cocktail party are called “hangers on.” Leaders are made of sterner stuff.
By this I take it that you are socially liberal, but economically more conservative. I think there are a lot of college educated white collar types (though I don’t know if that describes you, it would surprise me if it didn’t) who have similar values. And what I wonder is, why isn’t this seen as just as disloyal as the Democrats who are economic liberals/populists but are socially more conservative?
I know that personally, I am very much on the left economically (as well as socially), and I would not be the slightest bit interested in voting Republican even if they were laissez faire about social issues as well as economic ones. So wouldn’t it be every bit as fair for me to view you–and others who feel as you do–with suspicion, just as so many of you are leery of socially conservative Democrats?
-Alan
This sort of thing (completely unrelated to you or media girl, or your conversation) is what often causes me to think that national politics is just some sort of big scam run by both parties.
If social issues… if reproductive/privacy/whatever rights were indeed “settled law” with a constitutional amendment or whatever, and various other issues were off the table, any number of people who now vote for Democrats would vote for Republicans and vice versa.
There are economic populists in the Republican party, and people who prefer more business friendly, less regulation economic conservatives in the Democratic party. It benefits both sides to keep the social issues on the table, and never to really solve anything at all. I am economically and socially left as well, so voting Republican at any stage of things (local, state, national, whatever) is out. I don’t think I am in the majority tho ;).
Only, even if this was some sort of plan or scam, Republicans are playing for keeps, while Democrats often seem to just be playing for the next election.
…so no reason to get on me about Democrat unity. I am an independent. But perhaps I should elaborate a bit.
Socially I am liberal/libertarian. Mostly the government should leave people’s private lives alone. All this holier than thou crap from the wingnuts is offensive. That they do it in the name of Jesus is bullshit. What money changers did Jesus coddle? Whom did Jesus bomb? How may poor did Jesus say were undeserving?
Anyway, enough on that.
On the fiscal side, I think government should spend within its means. I say this noting that since Vietnam the federal defecit has gone down under only two presidents — Carter and Clinton. The Republicans are not fiscally conservative. That’s just a big joke. A tragic joke perpetrated on us.
But I am a Keynesian when it comes to economic policy. The “pro-business” policies of the REpublicans are not pro-small business, the heart and soul of our economy. A real pro-business platform would include healthcare for all, a solid and efficient social safety net, stronger education for all, and a clean environment. Without those things, people get anxious, and when they get anxious, they tend to stop spending money, stop taking chances, stop living life to the fullest. And business suffers.
I don’t care for Democratic economic policy when it comes to huge beaurocratic solutions to the problems of individuals. Welfare was a mess before it was made more of a mess by “reform.” Medicare is a nightmare, and until we reform the entire healthcare system, nothing is going to happen. Yet the Dems are afraid to touch sacred cows.
When it comes to fundamental moral values, though, I don’t see room for compromise. Either you’re for women’s equality and reproductive rights, or you’re not. Either your for providing a social safety net so people not only survive but are able to find the means to get back on their feet again, or you’re not.
I am as mistrustful of huge, bloated corporations as I am huge, bloated governmental agencies. Empowering the individual is to me at the heart of the “American dream,” and that means on every level.
Extremely well said, and I think we’re on very much the same page.
The only reason I bother to register as, and stay, a Democrat is that the system is just impossible for a third party.
I haven’t seen anyone call for a split in the party. Yes, Kos has said that being closely tied to the DLC is a death sentence for any candidate. But that is not a call to purge the party of the DLC. It is a simple statement of fact.
What a lot of Democratic leaders don’t realize, because they don’t spend enough time talking to the grassroots, is that the DLC is despised within the Democratic rank-n-file only marginally less than George W. Bush (in some cases worse).
This is perhaps an unfair assessment (I don’t consider the DLC to be Republican plants. I just think they are idiots when it comes to politics.) But it IS the state of opinion within the party at this moment. Kos, in his own <ahem> inimitable style, is simply pointing out to Democratic leaders that trying to save the DLC is a pointless cause and, furthermore, likely to sink their own political prospects.
The DLC is a poisoned tree. It may still have some valuable fruit worth picking. But the trunk is full of rot and the whole thing will fall over in the next big wind storm. The sooner Democratic leaders wake up to this reality the better for the party.
I wonder if there is some denial here about the seriousness of the problem.
Clinton’s two terms masked the fact that the traditional Democratic party can no longer win presidential elections. The old liberal-labor-minority coalition simply doesn’t hang together any more, and we haven’t won an election in almost 30 years, since Carter–who was elected in a backlash vote after Watergate. Johnson was the last Democratic president who won on the traditional party platform.
1966: That’s a long time ago!
But that election didn’t result from a “liberal-labor-minority coalition” alone. The Democrats still held most of the Southern white bigot vote, which they were soon to start losing once the northern liberal part of the party spearheaded civil rights legislation.
So, to piggyback on your point: I’d argue that the “old liberal-labor-minority coalition” never won us any presidential elections on its own. And I think that’s important to remember. We actually might have more of a chance with a similar coalition (if you add in immigrants and city dwellers) in the future, as the country gets less white and rural.
-Alan