Update:
This constant bashing of the military and america is evil and americans are evil is way to much for me right now. See you later.
I need to get away from here before I cross that line of becoming a prick.
This constant bashing of the military and America and particularly this every American is evil is to much for me.I simply refuse to allow myself to become a prick and if I keep reading this horseshit I will cross that line and destroy something I respect.
see you all around the campus sometime in the near future.
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I will admit that I have aggressively defended my family, my friends and my country in some of the diaries I posted comments within over the last few days. I am not an apologist for my nation, I am will not be labeled as an American purist or a Bushco sympathizer. My country is in the throes of a fascist takeover, perpetuated by the PNACers, which want nothing more than to make the rest of the world subservient to the US and its policies. I despise these fascists and have fought within every legal means I know to prevent and mitigate their destruction of my nation and its constitution. I am going to offer you a little background as to why I am so vehemently opposed to blanket statements that paint all people with the same broad strokes as being lazy, stupid, ignorant, criminal or willfully negligent.
Having had the dishonor of growing up in a home that espoused a distinctly KKK aroma of hatred and disrespect for anyone who was not an WASP, who hated jews, blacks, hispanics, catholics, indians and all the other sub human species of the human race, I was quickly indoctrinated that I was unworthy because my mother was part native american.
As I grew up and became more acquainted with drugs and alcohol, I also became an equal opportunity bigot; I hated everyone equally and used racial slanders as a mighty weapon. I willfully went out of my way to start fights with anyone whom I felt was less than me and that was everyone because I had such a fever to prove that I was one of the superior humans on this planet.
More below the fold
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When I found recovery, I quickly was made aware that, I am just a member of the greater human race and like every other member of the human race, I have value. I have worked diligently to promote that agenda, that every single member of the human race is valuable, regardless of ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, race, creed or color. I have spent most of my adult life in recovery working to bring about social justice for all members of my country and the greater membership of the rest of the world. My country is many things and has caused as much good in the world as it has caused harm. It will only change its policies when those of us who actually believe that the greater good is a far nobler arena than the good of only the United States.
To have someone repeatedly claim over and over again in broad general statements that America and Americans are the worst form of life sucking death dealing scum who have infected the world with their Imperialism and hegemony, does little to encourage change and even less to promote a civil discourse in how to create solutions to the many problems facing not just America but the rest of the world.
I am by no means perfect nor do I offer that I have all the answers. What I strive to achieve in my life is some impact in any place that I have access to, to create solutions to problems that are present within my community. I give of myself in as many ways as possible to enhance my community and my life. I have given not only my money, but also my time to facilitate changes within my society. I was a volunteer at a children’s hospital for more than two years every Friday night walking crack, heroin and cocaine addicted babies because the nursing staff was so overwhelmed by the numbers being brought to the hospital. I worked with HIV positive male prostitutes, some as young as 13 years old, to help them find homes and someone to care about them. I have spoken to power to address the issue of syringe exchange only to be told that if I tried to do that I would arrested, so we started giving our packages with bleach to addicts, so they might mitigate their chances of infection from HIV.
I worked with gang members to help find ways to alleviate the amount of violence in so many neighborhoods where I lived. I finally could no longer watch the death and destruction of so many wonderful youthful human beings. So I returned to a more national focus, to try to impact our government and its policies. I don’t know if I have made any changes, I don’t know if my continued writing to members of congress, the president, the governor, members of state congressional delegations has created any change. What I do know is that I have not stopped, I have not abandoned my core principles that all human beings are valuable. That each and every human life on this planet should have the same opportunities to have clean water, food, shelter, clothing and security of their persons.
I find it hurtful and non-productive when someone chooses to brush me with the same strokes as the criminal enterprise that currently controls my nation. It does little to help me formulate solutions to the overwhelming issues that face my country. If you want to alienate those of us who believe that we can change our nation, then by all means brush us with the strokes of war criminal, hatemonger, despot nation, and Imperialist warmonger. I am sure you will soon find that you have far fewer Americans willing to work toward changing our national policies and far more willing to simply state, what the hell, I am damned if I do and damned if I don’t, I quit.
As for this human being, I want a better life for my children than the one I currently live within. The only way that is going to occur is by building coalitions and gaining power in the same way the Neo Con fascists have gained power. I don’t know if we can change anything, what I do know is if I don’t try, then it will never change and I will have to face my children one day and explain to them why they live in a theocratic/fascistic state. Or worse, I will never have an opportunity to talk to them again because the world blew up around us.
I will not apologize for defending honorable men and women who in fact did choose to serve in the US Armed forces. They are many decent law abiding people who have stood up for those who are less fortunate than them. As I stated before, I have two cousins in the Marines who have been punished for making a stance against an illegal order and they will continue to do so until such time as they are discharged or arrested. If you have a problem with the US, then by all means let us know, if you don’t have something constructive to help us facilitate change, then be prepared to have someone challenge you. Constant denigrating, harping about how evil we are, how despicable our culture is, truly is counter productive to helping us facilitate change. I have no problem in addressing real problems with my country, in its current state; I have great fear that we have in fact crossed the line of demarcation. I hope we have not, I hope that together those of us in the US that truly believe that we are viable and valuable members of the world community can bring about structural change in the US and its policies.
I was recently accused of the dreaded phase STFU, if that person can clearly and definitively show me where in any place in my comments to anyone that I made that premise, you will publicly receive an apology from me. I may vehemently disagree with many here, but I respect their right to be heard and as far as I can tell, I have not stated that anyone should STFU about their views. I come here to disassociate myself from my comfort zone, there are those who make me truly uncomfortable and those who help me see the weaknesses in my arguments. Then there are those who give me valued assistance in formulating solutions to problems. This community has made me a better human being and a better member of the human race and its worldwide community. I wish to thank you all for that great privilege.
America is the place of my young adult discoveries & the earth is my being. We are all one.
And we must remember that. No one is pure. No one is perfect. We are all in this together. And we must always respect those who are deserving of it… including individual members of the military who joined to serve the ideals of their country, peaceful anti-war activists who are fighting to preserve the ideals of their country, children being forced to hold a gun for the first time to defend some dusty piece of land in a country we never think about, the woman being raped and stoned to death because of it… my list goes on and on. We are all in this together.
We need to remember that. Thank you ghostdancer for bringing your voice, your perspective, your soul, your loyalty, passion, you, to booman trib. We are all the better for it.
Namaste.
~ spider
my only brother is an American. I have artist friends in LA. My culture is North American. The 49th parallel is a line drawn on a map. I’m realistic, that border is not physically easy to cross but it is still a line drawn on a map.
The GWB administration is not ‘the American people.’
nt
We had our dinner yesterday.
4.5 kilogram turkey, bread stuffing with my herbs,
organic cranberry (grown in BC) sauce,
mashed turnips, (grown in BC)
baked sweet potatoes and yams (imported from USA),
roasted potatoes (grown in BC),
pumpkin pie,
Canadian sparkling wine.
I am still full. I made them take the left-over bird home since I am supposed to be a vegan.
Ghostdancer, you are a true patriot. “America, when right to be kept right; when wrong to be made right.” When we stand together we are strong enough to make it right. Thank you for fighting the good fight. In my own way and space, I join you.
Ghostdancer, you have my sincere admiration and respect for what you’ve accomplished, in your personal struggles, and in what you do day to day to make this nation a better place. And of course, for your postings here — your voice here is one of the reasons I come. Thank you for sharing your passion with us, for justice and for the future of this country.
ditto that for me too.
Let me start by saying I love the majority of your diary. Your personal life has its share of heartache, but what you’ve done with it is an inspiration to us all.
I should be doing work right now, but since you’ve personally called me out at the end of your diary, I’ll have to make an exception and respond now.
Brief history for those who missed the “fun” this weekend:
And this bugs me. It bugs the heck out of me. Because the way this is being handled by members of our wonderful community is threatening to change it in ways no one intends, but negative ways all the same.
I can’t speak for everyone, but I greatly enjoy the variety of voices and viewpoints I find here. I don’t agree with them all, but I learn from them all the same. Other sites purge these kind of people, who say impolitic things. But these people challenge us all to really look at why we think the things we do.
But my point is, these voices are important to this place, in their own way. Its not just them, but the comments in support, questioning, and refuting their points that make the experience of being here so valuable to me, and hopefully to others.
Yet time and time again I’ve seen folks try to silence them — by going beyond refuting or debating the points they raise, and making accusations about their motives, or mocking them or their positions, or any number of non-boo-trib-like occurances — stuff that was common at the orange place is becoming more common here.
On that feeling, that our environment is slipping, I’m certainly not alone. Many people posted that they’re feeling afraid to comment anymore, questioning if they have something worthwhile to add to the conversation, even being cautious about rating comments out of concern of appearing to “take sides”.
I don’t give a damn what anyone’s positions are on any of the issues, whether they agree or disagree with me 100% of the time, whether they have kissed every baby of every member here — no one here has the right to make another member feel that way!
I don’t think most of them realize they are doing it, to be fair. They believe they are just sticking up for what they believe. But the focus has shifted from informing and persuading to convincing and winning. I miss the days we could post the most idiotic of comments, people would kindly tell us we were wrong, and we could reflect on it, and sheepishly take it back, or shrug and agree to disagree.
Now its more like a political campaign — you’re with me or you’re against me, all good so-and-so’s believe, bleh, bleh, bleh. Is that what we really want?
Ghostdancer’s Way, as I said, I admire the things you fight for. I respect that you actually do what too many of us only say. I’ve always respected you.
Because you’ve done those wonderful deeds will not mean that every action you take here has no negative effects. If your point was that you are a good person, have strived to be a good person, and don’t deserve to be called a war criminal for being a citizen of the country that spawned the rapes and murders of Abu Ghraib — I agree, you do not. If your point was that just because your cousins serve in the marines in Iraq, they do not deserve to be considered war criminals — I agree, they do not.
Following Ductape into Klatoo’s diary, and carrying on a fight you two had started earlier (in Stu’s diary, followed by more posting in Spiderleaf’s diary) was non productive. You asked where you said STFU — let me clarify, you did not use those words, and I never accused you of uttering that phrase. In retrospect, I wish I would have used a phrase like “will have a chilling effect on other Trib members”. But all the same, let me walk you through how I drew the comparison–
<snip>
…
In the short span of his miserable regime, Bush has done something no one has been able to accomplish before.He has forever laid to rest the lie that America means well by other peoples, that it is a force for good at home and abroad and its transgressions need to be tolerated by others precisely for those reasons.That image has been shattered for good.No one at home or abroad buys that anymore.
I wish we could recommend diaries more than once (4.00 / 4)
I would sit here and click this one every few minutes for the rest of the day.
of course you would (4.00 / 3)
anything to continue perpetuating that the entire US population is evil and contemptous.
Why don’t you bring some solutions to the table, instead of this false rhetoric of the american people are evil.
It really only devolved from there. But even at that point, we’ve got:
I’m pretty sure you only intended that comment to apply to Ductape, and you felt justified in posting it because that would be consistent with how you’d heard Ductape’s previous comments.
That doesn’t excuse it.
If we’re going to hound people for what they’ve said in the past, in other diaries, everywhere they post — what happened to this being a place where we could post freely, not afraid of saying something stupid or that we might come to regret? What does this say to the people who recommended the diary?
chocolate ink
shycat
vida
DuctapeFatwa
Oui
dove
glitterscale
BrendaStewart
Alice
shermanesqe
mlr701
snakelass
supersoling
Gaianne
blueneck
Gooserock
Salunga
das monde
poco
Were all of those people supposed to keep quiet, unless they had solutions? What about all the people who read your comment as the second one in the entire diary, and decided they didn’t want to get into a heated debate, or to be accused of not having solutions, or be lumped in with those who think America is evil?
Ghostdancer, I know you didn’t intend any of that. I know you only intended to get Ductape to apologize, or get the community to come out publically in support of you and opposed to him, or some other goal concerning the earlier conflict.
But in your heated emotions, did you consider any of these other effects I’m mentioning?
As I said earlier, I don’t care too much about what anyone’s opinions are on these weighty matters. I just care that people have these opinions, and feel free to express them, and care to share.
If in our zeal we crush that spirit, it won’t matter what anyone’s opinions are on these topics. The part we love most about this place will be dead.
The worst part of this weekend is that I’m convinced that you, me, spiderleaf, stu, ductape, and everyone else are all here for the same thing. We have different personalities, and different writing styles. Like a family, we’re bound to set each other off at times. But we all care about the same things. I don’t want us to lose site of that. I don’t want this place to lose its boo-trib-ness.
MilitaryTracy, on Saturday, inspired by the “hot” threads on the subject of US gunmen, started a diary to support and honor members of the US military who have refused to participate in or be complicit in the commission of crimes against humanity.
It got 5 or 6 replies, and fell like a stone.
I can’t find it now.
That speaks louder than any words written by me or anyone else ever could.
begun sending money and forming a support system in my commnunity that hopefully will begin to channel some resources to those individuals.
GDW, you are truly a remarkable man. Thank you for your endevers.
you have my sincerest apologies. You have indeed shown me where, maybe not STFU, but still there is a clear manifestation of a desire to stife debate.
Thank you, you certainly didn’t have to apologize. Still, I do appreciate it.
I too want to apologize. I should have posted my explanation yesterday when you asked the first time, in that same thread. I did not, not wishing to further disrupt Klatoo’s diary with more meta-conversation, and not daring to risk writing something as stupid as my comment equating your actions with the too harsh STFU, which contributed to our misunderstanding. But since you asked for an explanation in all sincerity, and I should have found a way to give it to you then.
So please accept my apologies.
and you speak for me. I’m so happy to see apologies exchanged and respect restored.
I agree with SJCT above, that was an outstanding summary, written superbly and I too am glad this has been resolved.
Yeah, well, so much for that, eh?
Obviously not “so much for that”. You were right. This wasn’t over — not by a long shot.
Can’t blame me for going for the olive branch. Didn’t actually expect it to be used to hit other people.
For the record,
my recommendation of Stu Piddy’s diary was not an endorsement of his point of view. I recommend many diaries that express views 180 degrees opposite of my own. I think it’s critical to hear, and debate the merits of all opinions, unless it is truly hurtful and meaningless (to me).
One other thing I want to say though. While I understand the concern for the community cohesivenes and the need to remain fair that Yaright expresses here, things we all want, I’m am a bit uncomfortabe with what appears to me to be his taking on the task of setting Ghostdancers Way back on the proper path. The above comment is only one of several in different threads where Yaright has taken it upon himself to confront GDW. In pointing this out, I am in no way endorsing GDW’s treatment of DTF. Only that I am uncomfortable with what I see. Ghostdancer is an esteemed and greatly valued member of this community who is quite capable of coming to his own conclusions about how he conducts himself. If his conduct is out of line, I have faith that the community will give him the space to come to his own solution. I respect the thought behind Yahright’s action, but disagree with it.
You are uncomfortable with what exactly?
So because someone is a respected member of the community, they are “allowed” to run around all over the place spewing anger and vileness? And you are uncomfortable with someone taking the time to try to set things straight?
I don’t get it.
I am uncomfortable with one member taking it upon himself to continually call out another. The same way I am uncomfortable with the way Ghostdancers Way continually called out Ductape Fatwa. Both are wrong in my opinion, though Yaright has taken time to be more respectful. Just don’t think it’s necessarry for any one member to point out what is or isn’t good behavior. Ghostdancer has quite enough integrity to solve his internal conflict and his behavior, no matter what that behavior is.
I appreciate your opinion. Its the one I held yesterday, myself.
But enough is enough. Brinnainne is right here.
Ghostdancer calls me out by name in his diary today, after repeatedly trashing other “respected community members” yesterday. We work it out (or so I really thought).
Then he goes and calls out Brinnaine in another diary.
I can’t remember the last time I saw Parker here. I miss Parker. Maybe Parker wasn’t as “respected” as ghostdancer and others, but she sure posted a lot more (quantity wise) political commentary, and I respected her.
I feel the same about media girl. Today she posts that essentially this place has become too hostile to post at on a regular basis anymore. Another interesting voice being silenced.
I’m tired of it
If we don’t stand up and tell our “respected community members” when they’re being destructive, what’s to keep this place from descending to the hostile group-think environment many of us fled from in the first place?
Its all of our job to stand up to people, especially if they’re our friends, and tell them to take some time off.
I wish I wasn’t the only one confronting GDW. I shouldn’t be. If you consider yourself his friend, instead of worrying only about his personal healing path or some of the other things I’ve seen posted today, why not worry about what he’s doing to the community, that he may come to regret.
Even I know, if your kids are hitting each other, no matter what internal demons they’re dealing with, you make them stop hitting the other kids.
The “respected community member” nonsense just doesn’t hold weight with me. If that’s where we are, I’ll pull up stakes and leave. If we don’t judge everyone on their actions, why do we invite in newcomers? Is it fair to cut super-extra slack to people just because they’ve been here longer, and posted nice things that made us smile in the past? That’s the clique behavior that…
Eh, its about time for one of my friends to tell me to take a time out. But I hope you’ll consider my points, and forgive the courseness of their presentation.
I’ve had enough.
You obviously aren’t looking hard enough or don’t want to wade into debate. Not everything is going to be tea and crumpets, nor will it all be to your liking. So as a few said to me this weekend… you don’t have to respond, or click. It’s all about choice baby.
Spiderleaf, there is so very much I should say to you. I’m glad someone is enjoying this. Most of us aren’t. That should tell you something right there.
perhaps you should read catnip’s posting on PTSD in the diary you decided to trash me in and then get back to me with your blase outlook.
just a thought… liberal traits and all.
and btw. I had hoped you would have more compassion for those who may be dealing with more complex emotional issues than you are used to.
If it bothers you, or you don’t feel the community should have to deal with it then write a diary, post more comments such as these, but please don’t say it is a problem the whole community has… kinda like you were saying to me yesterday…
easy to be the reasonable voice when it doesn’t affect you personally, no?
Ghostdancer is no child, first of all. It is no more my business to tell him or any other “respected member” what’s right and what’s wrong than it is your’s. But like I said above, this is all my opinion. It makes me uncomfortable. No absolutes.
It’s pretty simple. Let them work it out or not. Let them stay or leave. In the end if things go beyond what is acceptable then Booman will gently step in. Done deal.
I am not ready to say much- this site is growing- people find their voices- and there are going to be a lot of passionate ones-it’s the nature of the beast.
I try to feed the good wolf. That is all.
Me too, I will fight for my land I love, America.
I dont know if I can make any difference here on this topic or not, but I shall try anyhow.
When I was very young, just turned 18 and I made up my mind to join the military. mind you this is 1963, but anyhow, I had the desire to become a nurse. I was horrified of doctors and hospitals and shots and anything connnected with such…but I wanted to save lives and help the sick and afflected. I did not know if I could make the grade or not, so I decided to join the Navy to see if I could handle this occupation of which I had my heart sat on.
I did and to make a long story short, I never gave it a thought as to a war starting or could start or was in fact going on at the time of my decision.
My parents were just poor lower middle class union members and could barely make their motgage payments, let alone send me to college. I was not an excellent student of which I should have been. I didi take subjects such as latin, algerbra, geometry, biology, chemistry, etc in preping me for college. I just was not ready for that yet. As a 17 1/2 y/o I contacted the Navy recruiter and started the process, then when graduation came upon us and it was time to give the word to my parents what I was about to do, and they almost failed to believe me, until the recruiter came to talk to them and give me my list of paper work to fill out. It was then they knew of my ambutions.
I joined so they would not have to pay my way..in a way I was paying my own way thru the Mongomery GI bill. I was learning, while in the Navy to do my job and to do it very well. It took me three days to give my first shot in classroom setting. and then it took my company nurse to hold my hand and help me to give it…I have now been giving shots going on 40+ years.
I did not have one thought as to a war…all I wanted was experience and the chance to go to college with out putting any more pressure on my parents. I followed thru and once I got my degree, I not only got married an dhad a family, I joined the USAF. Was a Flight nurse and enjoyed the entire thing of it all….and I mean it all…does that make me a bad person? You tell me. Does this make me a warmonger? you tell me. Does this make me nonfeeling to most of what Americans feel towards the troops of today? you tell me..
I had three children..tow of which joined the military and did the same very thing their mother did..they loved their country and wanted to get an education. They did and I do not think badly of them for doing so. I could not send them to college. I was for the most part a working single mom. Thank God I had the knowledge to which I could make a decent salary at this time or things would have really been horrible for us. I lived on not much money while going to college. I had to make it or else. That is the only thing I could think of.
I consider myself a good citizen and a good neighbor. I consider myself a good mom and a good friend. I learned a lot of things while I was growing, and believe you me, folks, I continue to learn on a daily basis. I became an Independent while in the military. I stayed that way all my life. I did not want a party to tell me what to vote for and how to vote.
I know you mus think my rambleing is just that, but the moral of this story is, I am American firstly and mostly. I am a woman secondly and mostly. I am a mother, above all else. I am some one who loves her country. I would give my life for any of you in here, if need be, no matter the cause so that you would nto have to go and fight.
I think most of th eyoung int he military feel the say way as I do and have had and still have aspirations as I once did. Far be it from me to tell them they are wrong. Do you want to tell them they are wrong? Do you want to take their place? You see, there will become a time when we will not be at war. Peace will be once at hand again. We will still need a military of ppl that know what the hell they are doing to keep the military ready for bad times, God forbid if it should happen.
I have said on may occassion, that the leadership of our military is the reason we are the agressor that we are. I do not know where they came out of the woodwork from nowadays, but they for the most part have been career military for a very long time. It is the pentagon and the leadership with it that makes the very big mistakes that are being done today.
I really feel this way and have for a very long time. I am so very against this administration! They are the reason we are the way weare. not john and jane q public. It is not GDW or ducktape or anyone else. it is the frustration that we are all suffering from. The helplessness that we all are feeling and I promise you it is felt in the military as well.
I am recieving letters from a family member int he Army and has spent his third tour there. His letters are changing in tone as they come. I can tellyou they are not one bit happy for being there. The troops know the difference…Yes there are some that are not good in the things they do to the poor ppl of Iraq. I often see and think the same things as many do and say it it the troops…Can you imagine how I felt and feel when a memeber of my medical corps are complicit in all of this maddness!!?? I just melt and cry for days on end. I know the creed they take…I took that same oath. I know what it means.
I know your feelings on both sides of this! I have been there and still am there and will remain there. Why cuz I am a human and a healthcare giver. I save lives not take them.
Just please take a very deep breath and help me to stop this war and bring our men and women home before they did.
Hope you dont ever get tired of me talking…thanks for allowing me to do such..
PS: I am very sorry that I can not write like you all can…I just hope you get my drift. You all do such a better job of this than I can do.
.
Everyone contributes by just telling life’s personal story, you are kind for sharing your experiences with the community. You express your emotions very well, something I find difficult to do, I’m probably too rational. We all have our personal struggles and choices we make, the sacrifices necessary to build a home and family, the very responsibilities of a parent, partner and teacher for our children.
The community is build from the bottom up, every individual knows his responsibility. The armed forces have a command structure from the top down, this means the leadership should not accept an illegal order, it’s not fair to pass such an order down the line to a private 1st class.
In politics you see more often persons ducking their responsibilities, not on my plate or I can get into trouble. The U.S. Armed Forces, like the European NATO troops, have a readiness to act against aggression when called upon. The Europeans have more experience with U.N. peace keeping missions, the ultimate goal for a majority of our troops. It takes time for the WH leadership to realize We The People do not want to fight a war of choice. Too much evil is involved in fighting any war. The responsibility begins in the Oval office, and that’s where the buck stops!
Thank you BrendaStewart for being the person you are.
▼ ▼ ▼
“I am very sorry that I can not write like you all can…”
Whadaya mean? Your eloquence made me get all teary-eyed. Thank you so much for serving our country.
Brenda,
What you just did is what is so great about this place.
Personally, I’ll take heartfelt personal experiences and the open sharing of beliefs and values over pretty prose any day of the week!
I share your concern and frustration over what our nation is doing to its troops right now. Its just not right.
If our nation’s defense is at stake, we have to call upon them to go out there and do the dirty, distasteful work of war. When its done, we have to welcome them back home, thank them for their service, and see they get any care they’ll need to cope with the horrible things they’ve done on our behalf.
I wish our commanders in the military (and the dolt citizens above them) would enforce American values (like the McCain “don’t torture” amendment, protection of civilians, etc), as much as practical in a theater of war. Not simply for the prisoners and Iraqi’s, but for our soldiers! No one in the medical corp should feel pressured to lie in a report on the cause of death of an Iraqi, or patch up a victim to be tortured further. No sergeant should have to debate whether to turn in his unit, as the Abu Ghraib whistleblower did. Every soldier should be proud of his unit and their actions — as much as that is possible in war. Accidents and mistakes and tragedies are awful but normal consequences of war. Deliberate acts and illegal orders, and patterns of bad behavior don’t have to be. But either way, it wears on the souls of our troops involved.
As I posted yesterday, my Grandfather either witnessed or participated in acts of extreme grotesqueness (if not actual atrocities) in the Pacific in WWII. When he told the story, I was afraid to ask — partly because I don’t think I want to know, and partly because he was so brave to finally share as much as he did after bottling it up for fifty years. Dad won’t even talk about Vietnam. The great-uncle I barely knew committed suicide after his time in the service. My cousin came back from Iraq 1 “pretty messed up”, in his own words (he too was a nurse).
The ones who do awful things seemingly for the glee of it, like the captain on CNN… make me want to scream. But the rest of them, my family included, make me want to scream too — at the politicians and circumstances who put them into war. I know we have to ask our soldiers to do this. They want to do this for us, and sometimes it just can’t be helped.
(I didn’t mean to write so much, but I wanted to reinforce what you said so very well, Brenda. I can’t say if I got everything you were trying to tell us, but I tried to share what I did get out of it)
I am angry at this apology. So what, you chose not to spend thousands of hours whapping keyboards to become an excellent writer. If you had you’d be just as good as anyone here.
It never, not for a microsecond, occurred to me as a I read your work that the author needed more skills.
In fact I was cherishing a real human story, one of remarkable accomplishment and rich history. I like the folks I meet here.
I’m a better writer than you. I could never be a tenth the human you are. Your writing skills display that emphatically.
As a very new user here at Booman, I just want to thank you, Ghostdancer, for this very moving diary. As I read Spiderleaf’s diary yesterday, and all the comments, my heart started to sink a little. I came here because things seemed friendlier and more open than at that other site, where the kids play a little rougher. But I seem to have stumbled into yet another flame war/ meltdown.
But as I read through all the comments, I was so impressed with the tone and (what I could judge of) the motivation of the posters: everyone seemed to be trying to heal the pain, respect each other, encourage debate, and stay a community.
In many of the comments I’ve read, people seem to be anguishing that the tone of debate at this site was degenerating. But what I saw yesterday was a group of smart, engaged political people trying their damnedest to really hear each other, to reach out past their pain, to take ownership of their words and actions, to become the change they are seeking.
You’ve all inspired me to want to stick around.
Well said bughouse, I was going to lend a supportive comment here, but I think you said it better than I.
I just posted a diary about why as Brinn stated, I have gone over the top.
I will let that speak for itself.
Thank you all and like I said before I will see you around the campus, but I will not be a prick so I need to go heal.
Wado
And what an incredibly shitty thing to do to me. Thank you for not knowing when to fucking stop.
there is a more detailed comment from me to you over at the other diary. I hope you accept my sincere apologies. I did not single you out for indictment or accusation. You were right and that was all I wanted you to know.
Wado
I have to go. I only came here because I felt your consternation and hurt. You are one of the finest human beings I know and I am truly truly sorry that you felt such hurt from my diary.
Ok- takes a lot to get me to open my heart like this- but here goes-
What I have seen here this last couple of days is people laying their souls on the line.
Does anyone realize how amazing that is?
To do that before a bunch of people you have never met ?
Some have met,I realize.
A family dispute,ok,we have all been there.
But witness the healing that has occurred, and amends made.
That to me, is a sign of a strong family.
I take heart from the dialogue and the healing efforts from so many,who care deeply about this community.Feelings get hurt and defensive measures are taken because of that.
I certainly have made many mistakes,and hurt people’s feelings,not through intent,but by carelessness.That is not to say that I approve of censorship,or self-censorship.I do,however,pay attention to my audience- because it really helps no-one to offend them.I don’t think anyone could possibly accuse me of being wishy-washy. I am forceful and direct,take it or leave it or leave me alone.
Everyone here has made a great effort to heal the breach- and that really makes me happy- and sad- that all of you are not my immediate neighbors.
GDW, my admiration for you grows with every bit you reveal of yourself on this site. Thank you all you have done and all you have shared in our little pond. You will be in my thoughts and my prayers, and I hope our paths may cross again. You are an inspiration and a true friend to humanity.
.
~ Cross-posted from diary by catnip I Am Not My Leaders ~
I am not my brother’s keeper, unless you begin to strike at him.
To debate the Iraq War and get hostile over WWII makes no sense to me. Such a complicated flow of events leading up to WWII, the Anschlüss of Austria and the Blitzkrieg of the Pantzer divisions of the German Army, the most disciplined group of men any Army has ever seen. The SS, Gestapo, occupying forces, later new battalions added with enlisted nationals from the Ukraïne, France, Belgium and the Netherlands fighting at the East Front of Stalingrad.
The rules of engagement in fighting a war has evolved from the period of Napoleon and his defeat at Waterloo, where both sides agreed on a timetable of warfare and breaks when hostilities would cease, and let the forces get some rest.
The worst kind of wars and most brutal are the civil wars between brothers and families of a single nation: U.S. Civil War, Rwanda and Yugoslavia in the nineties. The world community find it difficult to engage in these battles, the United Nations could not provide legality to intervene within a sovereign nation. This is starting to change, the reformed U.N. will also address these conflicts in the future.
The most devastating wars are the great World Wars in the 20th century, WWI fought in the trenches of northern France and parts of Belgium, the use of lethal gas killing millions of soldiers. Yet there were moments, soldiers from both sides got out of their respective trenches to call a period of truce at Christmas, shortly thereafter to retreat into the trenches and continue the slaughter of men. It’s very depressing to travel the route through Verdun in France and see acres filled with crosses of the slain, every small village has its WWI memorial in city square for their fallen heroes.
WWII was a direct consequence of the peace agreement imposed on the German nation, which made it easier for a dictator like Hitler to rise to power. The Germans are know for its discipline and commitment to the nation, Hitler made use of both and vilified the Jewish race and most minorities not meeting his standard of the Arian race. The German war industry, the cooperation with large corporations to meet the contracts supplied by the government, engaged and provided jobs for millions of citizens. Jobs, food and security gave Hitler all the support needed for him to win democratic elections to continue his path to occupy most of Europe.
WWII saw the battles fought in clear front lines, only when small towns or villages came into a cross fire, were they destroyed. Paris was saved by agreement between the aggressors and the French generals and government. The Netherlands was not involved in WWI after they declared to remain neutral, and was left alone by Germany. Quite different in May 1940 when Germany surprised the Netherlands with a Blitzkrieg invasion of pantzer divisions of the regular German army. They swept into Holland from the South and needed to cross the Rhine river bridges, the Moerdijk bridge near Dordrecht in the route to Rotterdam was crucial. My dad was engaged in the defense of the Moerdijk bridge on Sunday morning, May 10, 1940. The bridge was fully lined with explosive charges to be destroyed whenever the Germans approached. Of course the Germans had infiltrated the Dutch military and civilians with corroborators and that night all explosives had been defused and the German colonnes of armor and truck loads of soldiers crossed into central Holland. There was a Dutch defense on a few locations, and the Dutch authorities did not agree to surrender. That is when the Germans decided to bomb a defenseless civilian heart of the city of Rotterdam, of course not any harbor infrastructure, which the Germans needed to keep intact.
Later on, the Germans failed in their attempt to invade Great Britain and the bombing of cities started, often with V1 and V2 rockets from the coastline of the European continent. The Wernher von Braun designed rockets were launched from Dutch cities like The Hague, the launching pads were located in the city heart Haagsche Bos. Trying to take the sites out with allied bombings led to a fatal mistake when a nearby residential area was bombed causing hundreds of civilian deaths. The Dutch know what warfare is, its destruction and the occupation of a foreign power. Yet the Dutch had relatively little destruction compared to Belgium, France and Germany itself of course. The Germans bombed not only London, the center of government, but also Coventry. In retaliation the allies bombed Dresden, killing more than 100,000 civilians in a single raid. The German people regard this bombing as a war crime, even today when a memorial is held to commemorate all victims of that one night.
The American people have no sense of the horror of war, one cannot have the emotions from tv coverage, photos or even from witness accounts. That is a profound reason why the Europeans are still reluctant to wage a war and get involved unless they themselves are under direct threat. The UK and USA with imperial political eyes cross that line much too easily and engaged in the Iraq War with no scruples.
Does the German people and nation bear a responsibility for Hitler, the war and its atrocities, and the death camps? The German people have the feeling that they are responsible, even sixty years later. I would agree, without having the new generation to be held responsible what their parents have done. Same question for the United States, are its people and nation as a whole responsible for the acts of its leadership, the elected President, his cabinet and Congress for their acts or instances when they fail to act. My answer will be once again: yes.
The Vietnam war was in essence guerrilla warfare, not only in the jungle, but throughout South Vietnam in all rural area, small towns and villages. Friend and foe could not be distinguished, the battle very similar to civil strife with all its cruelties. The might of the U.S. meant unleashing air power with unprecedented bombing raids over Hanoi and North Vietnam, destruction meant also civilian populated areas, industry, infrastructure and harbor facilities. The number of deaths in excess of two million is a heavy prize to pay for a nation. The Christmas bombing of 1972 above the city of Hanoi, most likely can be considered a war crime by Nixon, Kissinger and the War cabinet. I’m glad Nixon was impeached for a burglary into the DNC HQ in Watergate, its cover-up and further acts of law-breaking by Nixon’s cabal.
I see no balance to compare the Iraq war with the acts of the Nazis during WWII, it’s sufficient to deal with the Iraq war by itself, and try to kick the Republicans out of the White House and all political power in Washington DC.
Compare the discipline and training of the German army during WWII and the U.S. forces in Iraq, comprised of a large portion of NG forces. I do worry that the US army, in Iraq by comparison, is made up of a group of irregulars, poor leadership in Army command and some soldiers are little better than civilians armed with a M16 rifle. It’s very worrisome, looking at an article recently covered, a training stage of three months and send to the battle front!
That’s my take on the issue, but just do not make a comparison with Nazis, fascism, massive deaths and destruction and the holocaust. That’s just not right, nor necessary.
<<< MAKE LOVE, NOT WAR >>>
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Oh my dear dear friends, I have been away(on vacation right now)and have not read all diaries involved so will not even begin to comment on that. I can only comment as to what made me decide(before I went on vacation)to back away from the blogs for a bit.
I strongly believe we are influenced by the environment we live in, of course. For me, and I can only speak for myself,when I have wronged another I must promptly admit it and offer an amends. Either the other accepts it and the healing for both parties begins or the other does not accept it and the healing begins for me. I have admitted and taken responsibility for my part it it and then I do my best to let it go. That can be very difficult but I know for me that to hang on to the anger I am only hurting myself and I stay stuck and unable to move on. I lived for too many years staying stuck and angry and resentful. For too many years I believed so deeply that id you only saw it my way all would be good in the world. I was very selfish that way.
There is so much good in this community. There is so much hope and for the most part we all want the ultimate prize of seeing the warmongers/profiteers taken down. There are also many differences of opinion. Since it’s inception, there has been this wonderful atmosphere of civility and respect here at Booman. I know my expectation was that it would always continue. I also know that expectations are the foundation of resentments. Look we are all just trying so damn hard to right the wrongs that have been forced upon us and our nation. There are times I am just plain ready to say screw it, this is not worth it. Then I look into my grand daughter’s beautiful blue eyes, so full of wonder, innocence, happiness, joy and I know that I must continue to not just talk the talk but walk the talk also.
We are all trying to find our voice here and find the support that we need to help each other stay motivated and not give up. This may be the very most important work any of us can do in our lifetimes. Often when I am angry or perplexed with what another has said or done I have to ask myself, in the big scheme of things, How important is it really? There are voices here now that I do not agree with as witnessed a couple of weeks ago but that does not mean they are anymore or any less entitled to their opinions than anyone else, as long as it stays respectful. It hurts me deeply to see some of what has happened but it also gives me great joy to see the ammends made and accepted here. Now, isn’t it time to move on and work together to take back out country? Can we look for the similarities instead of the differences? Can we concentrate on finding solutions and carrying them out? Can we do that for the future of this community and our nation? I think we are all capable of this.
We have a very difficult task ahead of us. Let’s get on it! I love this community and all that we have shared here and all that I have learned from every one of you whether we agree or not. Take what you need and leave the rest behind, for the good of the whole. Namaste, my friends.