In Tony Blair’s England, there is a serious effort to criminalize criticism of religion. In theory, the object of this is to prevent, for example, Muslim clerics from calling for the extermination of Jews. In practice, however, the UK already has laws against the incitement of hatred and violence. The real, effective purpose of the new initiative is to make it impossible for secular critics to attack religion. New Labour, after all, is the UK’s answer to the DLC, cynically snuggling up to their own wingnuts.
The UK, however, is not alone. In the religious hothouse of the United States, similar forces are at work.
Over at dKos right now, there is an extended, far-ranging debate that essentially concerns whether non-religious people ought to be able to express their disagreement with and — heaven forfend! — contempt for religion.
I want to cut through the bullshit here and expose the hidden argument of the respect-for-religion crowd. What they imply, but seldom actually say, is that being religious is inherently superior than being non-religious, and that all of the blessings of moral society flow from religious belief.
I’ve even seen agnostics taken in by this nonsense. So have you, most likely. Is there anyone reading this who has not seen some non-religious person express admiration for religious people who can maintain the faith that they cannot, as if not being able to believe the unbelievable is some kind of personal shortcoming?
As it happens, I am religious in the sense that I believe in a supernatural or spiritual state of being. I am absolutely committed to people being able to choose their own beliefs based on whatever criteria they like, no matter how absurd I think they are. The only limitation I would like to impose on religion — aside from getting the freeloaders to pay taxes like any other business — is the common sense limitation that you ought not to be able to hurt or harrass people no matter what you think God is telling you to do.
In return, I expect that I should remain free to criticize religious beliefs like any other kind of ideology. I reserve the right to say that the Book of Genesis, read literally, is simply, factually, not true. I reserve the right to say that decent personal behavior is perfectly possible without religious morality, and as proof of that point to the vast population of non-religious people who are no more likely to murder or steal than religious people — and, let’s be really honest here, probably less likely to commit marital rape and child abuse than people whose religions tell them it’s okay to do so.
My experience is that organizations that prohibit criticism generally do so because their conduct warrants criticism. Given the history of organized religion, there is no question at all that religion warrants not only criticism but continuous scrutiny to prevent it from damaging society. The notion that it should be protected from that scrutiny is sufficiently outrageous that one has to wonder about the motives of the religious and political figures who want to erect that shield.
Religion has nothing to fear in the US or UK, or indeed throughout most of the western world. Unless, of course, it is the prospect of facing a free society in which they cannot force their views on others.
Respect should be earned. The surest sign that an institution does not deserve respect is when respect becomes mandatory.
Respect is a two way (at the very least) street — I have never been shown one OUNCE of respect by organized religion, and by individual adherents of such, rarely. You give as good as you get.
Great diary!
Preacher, meet a member of the choir. Religions are human-made systems that are only as good as the people who comprise them. At their best, they provide us some help in making sense of what wouldn’t make sense otherwise; to find meaning in life. At their worst, they can lead to terrible suffering and carnage. I tend to hold back on criticizing various facets of the various belief systems themselves, but have no qualms in being critical of the institutions and individuals that represent those systems when their behaviors are causing suffering to others.
I respect old Catholic Father Gross at my high school. I respect Mother Theresa, the Dalai Lama, and other individuals and groups who believe their faith compels them to help the least of us. That’s what I think, too.
They earned my respect, and never told me what to think. I attended regular mass throughout high school as an atheist, because I enjoyed hearing Father Gross’ words about Paulo Freire and liberation theology.
At a family reunion when I was eight, the extended part of my family decided to take it upon themselves to indoctrinate us. We had previously gotten XMas cards–ok, I found where my folks hid them–saying in these same words: “It’s too late for you and your wife, but please don’t keep your children from being saved.”
I was already a “natural” atheist by age 4, having seen no evidence for god in my life, only the unending wonders of nature and science. And when I asked “If god is everywhere, is he in my butt?” at catechism, I made my sentiments clear to my second-grade peers. (I was only going to Sunday school because all my friends said it was a great time for duck-duck-goose.)
Some people earn my respect, others my disrespect. Religion doesn’t have much to do with it. It’s more about attitudes towards humans. Increasingly, it seems America’s religious communities do not share my humanist perspective, but I am overjoyed when I find contrary examples.
Nailed it. 10.0.
I’m religious (United Church of Canada. Loosely. Though Cordelian or Weatherwaxian if I’m feeling spastic.) and you nailed my attitude in a nutshell.
Anyone who thinks “morality” flows from religion needs to be smacked about the head with a philosophy text. Plato would be my choice, but that’s just because he’s usually nice and thick, and then you can hurt their brains again by forcing them to sit down and read him.
I must admit I’ve gone from tolerant skeptic to active disliker of all three Middle Eastern fantasies. In the US there are wonderful people who draw something from their Christian beliefs — ML King, for example — but on the whole it seems obvious that we’d be better off now as a nation if Christianity just went away. Much like the Republican Party, there is no longer a viable voice of reason or compassion in the Christian power structures.
I don’t care what people believe about stuff that, by their nature, can never be proven one way or another. I’ll even still fight to protect their right to believe and to express their notions. That’s wearing thin though. I’m getting sick of the pols, the media, and the rest of the power elite automatically equating “faith” with morality and goodness when history teaches us the exact opposite. Every public political statement is subject to criticism. Being “faith-based” is no shield. It’s time for American Christians to either quit whining about “hostility” or shut the hell up.
I’m getting sick of the pols, the media, and the rest of the power elite automatically equating “faith” with morality and goodness when history teaches us the exact opposite.
The news teaches us the exact opposite. Homeschooled 19 yr. old Christian shooting the parents of his 14 year old girlfriend. Serial killers captured and tried recently (Gary Ridgeway, the BTK killer), women cutting open the bellies of pregnant women to steal their unborn infants (3 this year thus far I am aware of) the child sexual molestation scandals (which are hardly limited to the Catholic priesthood just for starters.
I’m not saying that religion causes that sort of contempt for life but it’s certainly no predictor of morality and goodness and it’s certainly used as a cover for all manner of vileness.
Just look at the cross cultural comparative stats on poverty, childhood poverty, the murder rate, the Death penalty and the income gap. If the US is the most Christian of the industrialized nations then that’s not saying good things about Christianity. The poverty rates and social response to the same alone are damning, to say the least.
Let me see, by the logic that religions deserve and must have our respect; that to disrespect them is “criminal,” then one mayhap must slide down the slippery slope (yes, that same logical hillock right-wingnuts so often warn us about) and condemn the disrespecting of the Red Cross, Boy Scouts of America, Corporation for Public Broadcasting and similar institutions that claim to be good for society.
More seriously, if violent or desecratory acts of a disrespectful nature against religions are what is really the issue, then I believe the law should provide. Hate crime is a crime in this country. Is it not in Britain?
But to try to enforce an attitude adjustment? Puuullleeeeze!
Organized religion and DailyKos…gawd…we went through this over there when the new Pope was selected back in April. Respect is earned and lack of respect is also earned. Back then I wrote a diary on my reasons…and considering that it stayed on the rec list for 1 1/2 days at the time says a lot about others believing the same thing. Some of you were there at the time and saw the same stuff on religion. And for lots of reasons – lots of us left.
There are lots of people that have reasons to dislike / despise organized religion. Lots of us have made peace years ago with our spirituality – but there will be those that want us to conform.
Some of us will respect the ministers and pastors and rabbis – and will never accept the structure. Some of us will accept that others believe in their religion and structure, we simply ask that you leave us alone.
This is why I disrespect religion – a personal story.
You can’t write too many diaries on why respect must be earned, why organized religion is a choice, and why not participating is an equal choice…and I will support every one of them.
That’s a big part of what it boils down to for me: the right to be left alone.
I ask of religious people the same thing I ask of panhandlers and salespeople: if I say ‘no’, don’t argue with me, just go away. And for the last time, don’t show up on my doorstep uninvited.
I don’t have a problem with there being a church on every corner. I do have a problem with — for example — Southern Baptists picketing the Hindu temple down the road. I don’t think it should be prohibited; I believe in freedom of expression, after all. I do think it makes those folks assholes, though.
I can live with the tax-exempt status of religious organizations. I don’t like it, especially considering how much of it gets funnelled quietly into political operations, but I can live with it. I cannot live with my tax dollars supporting “faith-based” charities. You can mumble all you want about not spending that money on proselytizing, but the simple fact is that every tax dollar they get to support charity work is another dollar of tithes freed up to go to proselytizing.
I flat out cannot live with religious laws governing how I live my life. Unelected church leaders have no right to tell me who and how I can marry, what sexual positions I am permitted to use, what parts of my own body I can touch, what I can watch or read, what I can smoke, or when I can buy liquor.
It goes without saying that I don’t want taxpayer-funded schools used to indoctrinate my kid. She has a sterling opportunity to grow up without the guilt, fear, and shame that are the stock in trade of religion. Don’t fuck it up for her.
I get really tired of hearing fundies complain about how religion is under attack. That’s utter bullshit. Religion gets a free ride in this society. What’s under attack, if anything, is the ability of the church to attack me. Fundie wingnuts are tied in knots because they cannot stand to see people shedding the bondage of fear and hatred that they themselves lack the fortitude and courage to abandon.
I respect an individual’s inherent right (IMO) to his/her own beliefs.
But that doesn’t mean I have to respect all these individuals or their beliefs.
Biiiig difference there. I think way too many religious people confuse those 2 things.
I usually bite me tongue in such arguments, but my honest belief is that religion is one of those things (like submission to authority in general and thing fetishism) that are holding humanity back from evolving further. We haven’t gone anywhere since the Enlightenment and have, in fact, gone backwards in the last century. I truly respect people who see the value of religious teachings and act upon them, but that’s such a small portion of the believers that it in no way exonerates religion in general.
I have a suspicion that the religious people who have earned my respect would have earned that respect even if religion did not exist. I think Mother Teresa would have devoted her life to helping the poor even if there were no Catholic church and she had remained Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu. People who have caring hearts don’t need organized religion to tell them what’s right.
On the flip side, too many people who “find Jesus” and “turn their lives around” just exchange their old bad habits (such as snorting too much cocaine) for new bad habits (such as lying and cheating their way into political office). For some, religion may provide a catalyst toward improving one’s life. But I believe that those people are looking for a change of outlook and would have a secular epiphany if religion weren’t around.
Religion can provide a means of passing down folk wisdom and a springboard for developing one’s personal philosophy. When religion causes people to think, it serves a valuable purpose. But when religion is used as a club to punish and preclude independent thought and to enforce conformity, it becomes one of the most dangerous forces humans have created.
The respect of religion is simply not an issue in the U.S.
The issue is that several faiths here are commanded by God and by their clergy to convert all the people they can, take over the government and rule the country at least in specified policy areas.
Authoritarian religion has been attacking throughout recent times, on public culture and private family planning by the Roman Catholic church, and on the spectrum of interest areas of the fundamentalist Protestant right. There seem to be a number of smaller imperialistic religions as well.
The issue is imperialistic relgion.
Quoting myself from a similar thread on EuroTrib:
The issues with religion and politics are several, here are some sources on “the other side.”
Sam Harris in his recent book “The End of Faith” takes the position that organized religion has caused more war and bloodshed than any other factor. He also claims that Islam is worse that Christianity in its unwillingness to co-exist with others. The book got a lot of notice in the US, I’m not sure how much it would resonate elsewhere, although I think it has been translated into German. He has a web site: http://samharris.org
There is an a-religious (or anti-religious, depending upon your point of view) movement in the US. A good example is at the Council for Secular Humanism: http://www.secularhumanism.org/ which publishes a magazine called “Free Inquiry”. People like Richard Dawkins contribute frequently.
Robert Ingersoll was a popular speaker in the late 19th century in the US. He pretty well covered all the issues of organized religion as it impacted education, politics and morality. He was a forceful and witty polemicist and did a much better job of bringing out the issues than is being done today. This has not stopped anyone from restarting all the old battles. His works are available online. Most essays are fairly short and trying a few is worthwhile just for the literary quality even if you don’t agree with his arguments.
The site:
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/
As I said on dKos the issue in the US these days is the trend towards theocracy which is worrying many. Even the religious are starting to fear that the “wrong” sect will become dominant. The first amendment was designed to protect minority religions from abuse by a state sponsored denomination. The example of the Protestant/Catholic wars in Britain was the prime impetus. Many think the purpose was to prevent people from exercising religion, but they are being misled.
There is a trend away from supernatural belief in developed countries. Even though the US is going through one of its periodic religious revivals the demographic studies show the young are much less involved with organized religion than their parents. Part of the grab for political power by the religious may be as a desperate effort to prevent this trend from developing further. It worked in Iran.
I’ve been reading some of the Ingersoll this morning — highly recommened for a sense of persective and a validation of, at least where humankind is concerned, the more things cahnge, the more they stay the same…
is paved with tender slights and blunt politics.
I’m not religious – although I did go through a phase where I was. I was raised Catholic because my grandmother would have thrown a fit if I hadn’t been. Then she died and we quit church for a while. Right before starting college I joined the United Methodist Church. This was in Louisiana and Mississippi. I was an active participant in two chuches (one at home and one in my college town) and on a listserv for United Methodists all over the country.
I liked studying and discussing theology and church history – from an academic perspective rather than the fuzzy-feeling poke-your-bible-with-a-finger-and-see-what-it-tells-you sort of thing. I read all about John Wesley and the “great awakening” in America, and discovered a part of history I’d never learned in school. I joined some “serious” bible study groups. I even got involved with teaching a weekly class of third graders, and taught at a weekend event for middle schoolers once. But ultimately the whole Jesus’ blood for your sins thing (definitely the dominant understanding in my churches, if not on the UM email list) just… didn’t compute. Didn’t make sense. Didn’t sound like a God I wanted anything to do with.
But I really liked the community. I liked belonging and I liked my friends and I liked how people cared for each other. I liked that I had a place to go for dinner on Wednesdays. And that some of the families would even invite me over to their houses because they knew I didn’t get homecooked meals very often. I liked the debates in Sunday school; I liked singing in the choir; I liked the pomp and ceremony in the worship services (when it was there – Methodists aren’t much for that stuff, generally).
Then a few things happened. First, a friend of mine (who didn’t go to my church but was one of my “Christian” friends) lectured me for dating a Jewish man. He told me that when his Jewish grandfather had died, his grandmother had asked him if he really thought his grandpa was in hell. He very self-righteously sighed and said, “And I had to tell her yes.” Because anything other than saying something extremely hurtful to a grieving widow would, in his mind, have been immoral, against the tenets of his faith.
Then I was introduced to an Asian guy who wanted to go to a church, so I took him to my church one Sunday. My church was as lily-white as they get but I wasn’t really aware of nor understanding of the meaning of this at the time. People were polite to him… barely… but there were stares and then at the following Wednesday night dinner a group of little old ladies came up to me tittering and asked me when there were going to be little Chinese babies. I wasn’t even sure what they were talking about at first. And then I was just horrified.
So I began re-evaluating whether this was a community I really wanted to be a part of. While all that was going on in my head, another friend of mine – someone I considered a good friend, actually – announced one day that she didn’t think she could be friends with anyone who wasn’t a Christian.
It was a tough thing for me to give up the church communities of people I’d cared about (and who had cared for me) and the campus community of hyper-religious, hyper-critical… okay, maybe that wasn’t quite as hard. But it did bother me to lose that.
Still, I couldn’t bring myself to swallow ridiculous theological propositions and to smile and nod at racism, not to mention just plain meanness, in order to be a part of those communities. For a long time I didn’t really understand why it was I’d left. I just did it.
But at least now nobody thinks I need male genitals to speak in front of any of the groups I belong to. Or to determine my own destiny. Some people think that this is weird, that I must be ever so much more unhappy now and that I’d be happy if I just “found the right church” but… nah. I’ll pass.
As a member of the Cult of Logical Conjecture Based upon Overwhelming Observable Evidence, to paraphrase Bobby Henderson, I have always felt like a second-class citizen in this country. I believe there is no god, just as I believe there is no Santa Claus or Easter Bunny (the jury’s still out on leprechauns). This, unfortunately, means I am nuts. “You mean you don’t believe in God?” is the phrase I hear repeated ad nauseam, to which I reply, “I believe there is no god.” I am then asked by these individuals to prove a negative; while they offer no proof as to the existence of a higher being, I defend a position based upon science and logic. When I point out the inherent flaws in the other person’s argument, I’m told that this is an issue of faith. What a cop-out.
The church as an institution (not singling out a particular sect or denomination) is nothing but an instrument of state control. It’s a tool used by those who possess power in order to preserve that power. There is no other substance to religion. None.
The idea that an omnipotent, omniscient, all-loving being is manipulating our lives is clearly absurd. There is absolutely no scientific evidence that any such being exists.
As a student of English literature, I’ve had the opportunity to read and study at length many works which deal with religious themes. In Milton’s Paradise Lost, for example, God casts Lucifer out of Heaven because he attempts to usurp God. An anagogical reading of this text would seem to tell us that God already knows Lucifer is going to attempt this usurpation. It then goes to follow that this all-loving, all-knowing God surely knows that Lucifer’s whole raison d’être, from that time forward, will be the corruption of humankind. So why does God allow this to happen? The only logical answer is that God is a humanist. God wants us to live in a universe where good and evil coexist, a universe in which we are free to make our own choices. In other words, if God hadn’t intended for the Fall and Original Sin to occur, then why didn’t he wave his wand or wiggle his cheek (a la Samantha Stevens) and just leave it at that? From this we can infer that God wants evil to exist. Evil has a purpose. Just as every bad film we watch makes us appreciate a masterpiece when we see it, so to does evil make us truly appreciate the power of good. We love the beautiful sunset today because it’s been raining for the last week; we’re thankful for our health because we’re recovering from cancer. You get the point.
So we have a soft-in-the-head president who invokes the “destruction of evil” as his mission in life. Either he’s an idiot, or he’s crassly exploiting religion in the same way that the Papacy, the Hapsburgs, the Bourbons and all the rest of done for centuries.
This country was supposed to change that dynamic. The tragic irony here is that the Third Jerusalem might just be the last Jerusalem.
It’s funny you mention Paradise Lost in this context. It was actually reading the Bible that caused me to reject Christianity. It wasn’t the Fall that got me, though that would have been enough had I thought about it. It was Abraham and Isaac.
I read a really lovely Jewish essay once that tried to put a nice spin on that story. The essayist’s point was that the important thing wasn’t that God ordered Abraham to murder his son; the important thing was that God stayed his hand. God is a God of Mercy, he opined.
That’s great. Unless you remember that after this unseemly episode, God made Abraham the father of his chosen people. God may not have made Abraham go through with the act, but He plainly had the very highest approval for a guy who was willing to murder his own son on the basis of voices in his head. If such a vile person is God’s idea of a good guy, I don’t want anything to do with that “God”. One might as well found a religion around Andrea Yates.
Wow-do I enjoy people telling this truth! I figure any day now they’ll be comin’ for us Boodists…
I shut up a door-to-door Jehovah’s Witness once by answering, when asked why I wasn’t a xian, “because of the way women are treated”. He had no comeback for that one!
Two things I heard recently that make me feel like I am on the right path:
A speaker we had last year said, “Buddhism [you could fill in any religion here] isn’t about ” Buddhism”; it about how we live our lives.”
And last week our minister said that in most organized religions you are expected to drop what you believe and pick up their set of beliefs/rules/ethics, etc. Whereas in Buddhism (when it’s at its best anyway), you’re expected to drop your preconceptions and see what happens. This fits in with my pagan tendencies real well.