As far as the mechanics of political activism go, I’m a novice, despite having been around for a long time. While I did some volunteer work on behalf of first McCarthy and then, (somewhat reluctantly), Humphrey back in ’68, seeking to keep the obviously dangerous nutcase Nixon from ascending to the throne, I was basically one of the least engaged grunts in those efforts; part of the herd, but indistinguishable from the rest. And, even having realized Nixon was a significant threat to the country and to our way of life, had I been eligible to vote in ’68, (I missed eligibility by under a year because the voting age then was still 21 years), I probably wouldn’t have involved myself in the democratic campaigns against him. I would have, (like so many others did), simply used my vote against him to fulfill what I saw as my democratic responsibility to oppose the bad guy. All of this is preamble, a disclaimer of sorts, a way of acknowledging that I was never really an enthusiastic participant in the day to day dynamics of political activism, and because of this, I don’t want anyone to think I’m attempting to represent myself as some sort of authority on that subject. I definitely am not such an authority.
In the current political climate, it seems indisputable that for those of us who regard the Bush regime in toto as the biggest threat to our country, to our way of life, and to the world at large that’s ever come down the pike, we generally agree that we need to get these lunatics out of office and reclaim control of our own government. I think it’s fair to say that we agree in general that if we can somehow achieve Democratic Party electoral majorities in the House and/or the Senate that our chances of restoring the mechanisms of democracy and strengthening our constitutional liberties and protections are greatly improved. Similarly, I think we (on the “left”) generally perceive the Democratic Party in it’s current state as an institution that is failing us; one that doesn’t stand up for us often enough or with sufficient enthusiasm to have any meaningful effect.
But where we disagree, where we have, in my opinion a huge, (and widening) problem, is in what we think we need to do in order to achieve the aims of regaining control of the government and getting the BushCo maniacs out.
There are many who argue that we need to elect Democrats, plain and simple, in order to change the numerical calculus in congress, if we are to have a hope of restoring government by the people and for the people. And those who argue this point support the notion that even if you have to vote for a Dem that doesn’t necessarily support what you yourself believe in, it’s still the smart thing to vote for him if doing so will unseat a Repub. In short, removing the “R” from that congressional seat and replacing it with a “D” is a first priority and should generally trump every other consideration.
There is another point of view which has finally reached prominence, (especially here in the free-thinking blogosphere, and especially in the wake of recent political maneuvers nand propagandizing by the DLC and by the poor voting choices made by prominent Dems), which argues that, in the end, if we choose to vote for the “go along to get along” Dems who too often vote their support for the Repub agenda, that ultimately such a strategy is a “lose-lose” one because either the Repub beats the “Repub-lite” Dem anyway, and, more importantly, because even in those rare cases where the Dem might win, the fact that his win betrays the principles we believe the party should stand for means the victory is hollow, virtually worthless. And if we add to this the idea that a series of such “victories through capitulation to the rightwing” only rewards, and thus encourages), the party’s movement toward the “right”, then the damage done is multiplied exponentially.
So, finally, here’s my question, and I think it’s pretty simple.
“Would we on the Left, (whether we call ourselves progressives or liberals or moderates or centrists or radicals or whatever), benefit from having a constructive dialog that examines the relative merits and pitfalls of each of these two divergent strategic positions in relation to each other in a way that might help us determine where one strategy might be more beneficial than the other in specific instances?”
Can we acknowledge that both strategies above have merit, and that each has its place in an effective strategic calculus? And can we have a civilized, respectful dialog about it without advocates for either position insisting the other is useless and irrelevant and ineffective?
Maybe I’ve missed it but it seems to me that there’s been little if any dialog along the lines I describe taking place anywhere. Yesterday in a comment thread on another very well-regarded left-progressive blog I proposed the idea that such a dialog as I refer to here might be a good idea, and I was surprised to be on the receiving end of a certain level of hostility from the blog host, who, for whatever reason, chose to actually delete my final comment. I thought I was proposing a constructive add-on to the blogger’s story, a story which generally reflected views I agreed with. But instead I got sniping and disparagement.
So, I’m asking you all, am I whistling in the wind when I suggest those us of with differing perspectives on these strategic issues might benefit from seeking ways in which we might utilize both to maximum effectiveness in pursuit of our aims. Do we perceive a meaningful benefit can be derived from acknowledgement that both strategies have advantages we can make use of? Or, is such a dialog not seen important enough to mention. My political naïveté might have me reading more into this than it’s worth, so I hope some of you will offer your thoughts.
There are a lot of us here that agree with the premise that we need to look at candidates individually and support restructuring of the party.
There is a prevailing attitude in the major blogs – and my perception is that the attitude is here as well – that if we don’t toe the line with the “dem party” then STFU.
Lots of us posted diaries this week…and the front page basically said STFU. Same thing on DailyKos and a couple of others. We need leaders for change from the leading bloggers….and we are being fed the DLC/DCCC/DSCC line.
So now I’m stepping back and doing this at the grass roots level…not the netroots level. I’ll do my best to STFU on the blogs – but not in real life.
Sorry for the level of anger and cynicism. Just more disillusionment than I expected in the blogosphere.
I would hate to see the large blogs become just another arm of the party. But at least the internet does offer infinite opportunities to reorganize as needed.
I fully subscribe to the premise that we have to simply refuse to supportthose candidates who don’t stand up for the things we believe are important, and if that means not supporting a Dem, and in doing so enabling a Repub to win, so be it. The idea of supporting those who’s victory drags the party itself further to the right is anathema to me, and I am firmly in the camp that repudiates the capitulators.
However, I voted for Kerry because even though I didn’t support him affirmatively, I recognized that a vote against Bush was, at that time, for me, more important than waiting around for a real principled and courageus Dem to turn up, most likely in the ashes of a planet BushCo isintent on destroying.
What I’m getting at here is not whether to repudiate cowardly, self absorbed Dems or not; what I’m getting at is not whether we should be supporting Dems against more destructive Repubs even when those Dems fail to stand up for our beliefs and liberties. No, what I’m getting at is simply this. Can we recognize that there are times when it serves us best to support a weak Dem as a bulwark against a greater “evil”, just as there are times when it may serve us best to repudiate the Dem capitulators utterly?
For me I don’t see this in terms of it all being an “absolutist” either/or kind of choice, and I guess I’m wondering if there are others who share that view.
Most of my voting has been guided in the past more by voting against the greater nasty, since I’ve always found it difficult to vote for people who devote so much energy to trying to deceive me into thinking they’re more principled than they are. And much of the time I haven’t voted at all, being so thoroughly disgusted with the hypocrisy from all sides that I somply put no faith in the political system at all.
Now I find my calculus on things has changed somewhat. The sheer size of the threat posed by the Bush regime; the capacity for destruction now apparent in their accumulationm of power and their corruption of government and ndermining ofthe very fundamentals of democracy; all this leads me toward a sense of greater urgency. I want to help stop these psychopaths. YI want to do whatever I can to add to the effort that might hwepl prevent them and their kind from overthrowing our demcracy and instituting their authoritarian police-state tyranny on all of us. To that end I find myself thinking about a broader array of methods we might use to combat them.
So, let me ask you. Do you think there are times when it’s appropriate to vote for a bum who doesn’t support if doing so might stop a worse buy from getting power? And, conversely, do you think there are times when not supporting a sellout from your own party is more important than whether a person from the other party wins as a result?
I recognize there are times when either choice might be advantageous, even when distasteful.
Sorry for all the typos. I did the “post instead of preview” thing again.
For the past 25-30 years I have voted to support the lesser of two evils at the national level only. I think that ended last week – although I would probably still support the Dem candidate for president as the lesser of two evils until the party is truly reformed.
On the local level I’ve always voted for the candidate that is closest to my beliefs…and in California sometimes that has been Republican or Green or Libertarian.
– –
What I’m finding in the lesser of two evils scenario at the House of Rep’s level is that it just breeds more capitulation.
There is a theory that when the pain gets to be too much is the only time that change occurs.
So following that line – I might be inclined to abstain and let potentially let MOST evil of the two win for a two year congressional term. We have that with Pombo here. Evil, corporate and rethug. He got re-elected in ’04 and has been so far over the top that his own base is deserting him. 2006 has mobilized a great number of diverse groups to take him down.
Also – with the internet I can spend my money on races across the country for true progressives to kick out DINO’s or republicans. If I have a few thousand to spend on candidates why should I spend it locally or to the party when I can direct it where it will do the most good?
Short answer – no I can’t support lesser of two evils. I’d rather abstain or protest vote an alternative party.
.
Definitely … always be true to yourself in such cases.
Compromise in party politics is usual, but your vote should be true to your personal beliefs.
“But I will not let myself be reduced to silence.”
▼ ▼ ▼ MY DIARY
I’m very happy to hear your perspectives on all this. My motivation for writing this diary was to elicit a coversation about such things, to explore the boundaries of the arena, so to speak, as to how we determine what’s important to us in the political arena and how we determine what our actions are.
I agree with your sentiments on all this too.
I would only add that I regard it is a tragedy that I see that it’s still occassionally necessary to go the “lesser of two evils” route. For me, it is a distasteful reminder of a deeper failure in our society. The jury’s still out on whether we canmove civilization forward by making “deals with the devil” in the short term, hoping we can deal with the repercussions later.
I want to add that I share your anger and your view about the “STFU unless you go along with the party” types. This is completely unhelpful, irrationally confrontational dialog that only generates more intransigence and division.
I have no interest in defending a position by be dismissive or contemptuous of others. And I don’t need to elevate the value of my own perceptions through the all too frequently used device of devaluing the perspectives of others.
It bothers me greatly that there are so many prominent voices on so many proinent blogs that seem to employ this agressive and belligerent behavior as a matter of course.
I am one who believes that we have to fight back against the reigning greed and imperialism through the instrument of the Democratic party — but I’ve always been an inside outside person. The role of the grassroots has to be to batter the Dems into being their better selves.
I’ve just written something here that I think speaks to this.
I’m just a novice too but this is an excellent chance for progress and to clarify any misconceptions on individual positions.
I never liked politics and stayed away mostly due to futility and frustration. I became involved to help bring nonMSM information out for public discussion and progress. I don’t try to convince anyone to agree with me but simply to consider alternative possibilities to long held misconceptions.
I’ve always registered Ind but voted Democrat although I support policy/principle over party. For the past 4 years I’ve been somewhat active, I have seen one disappointment after another in the Dem party, as a whole, to stand up for the ideals I thought they were based on. I keep coming back because I thought Dem party reform was possible and the best way to effect change. I still think it’s possible but not likely. Anyway, I’ve also believed that a viable third party (second, actually) that pulled the middle together would be an effective checks and balance to the original two. There’s nothing in place to keep them honest.
A third party can’t be created in an instant, imho, as in taking democracy to Iraq. It is a product that evolves from the ground up in bits and pieces. I think the second best option is a viable Dem party and that is possible but an understanding of compromise in current reality tramples the idealism.
A lot of frustration comes from poorly defined needs and goals of individuals, groups, leaders and society in the political realm. Discussion of all of these subjects would strengthen the party and also give an organized voice to the small individual groups that feel abandonded. Drawing in these small groups for mutual support would diminish the desirability of a need for a third party.
Rumi – how would you like to see this done?
I’ve always been an advocate for a third party but that’s been a long while now. It’s not to make any statement against the main two but to provide better quality for more voices. The two major parties would be healthier with a third one to provide some competition. We need at least the two we have and we need them to take opposing sides of the issues to better represent the voters.
Where we are now, I think there are several options for the future and they all come back to the same starting point. I believe there are many Ind voters like me who are willing to support the Dem party as an effort to better the country but we aren’t dedicated to the party. I support policy over party name and I lost my idealism a long time ago.
I was really pissed about the Alito fillibuster-bust and the recent reform talk is great but I realized something today. As much as I’d like a housecleaning, I saw some very experienced Democrats pushing the intel chiefs for answers at a hearing on C-Span today. A third party rookie just doesn’t have that experience/skill right from the start. It could be a fantastic candidate elected with much potential but the storied history would be lacking. We need to get through to the good, veteran legislators and bring some new blood in where we can’t get reform.
The best way to do this and meet the needs of the voters is to get organized drives, starting in the net communities, of all of the small disenfranchised groups/interests and third party fragments. Building a coalition of needs and resources will provide a larger, more effective presence. It can be broken down with leaders of blog communities as spokespeople and delegate the recruiting as needed…by interests. This would be a dynamic process and open to new ideas, programs, drives, projects and above all, discussion on a regular basis.
This would give the party power to the committee of representatives from the blogs and groups first and then to the leaders. Another organized program would focus on media message with massive individual input combined with top level message delivery so that it’s impossible to ignore. Even if we get ‘allright, allright,…enough already, we’ll make the correction’.
One thing is certain, there are too many crucial voices and ideas going unheard. They will gather their forces one way or another. Building coalitions would allow for more power by the people and whatever shape it takes in the future will be genuine. Along the way, it would provide necessary cooperation and focus for the Dem party and the interest groups.
.
In a community I personally just want to hold on to a few persons I understand have a similar philosophy and political views. A single political strategy for even a small community like BooMan’s Place is futile, its diversion is too great. As a result there can be many disappointments when the goals are not reached because the bar was set too high.
A similar example is in the Netherlands a soccer match for the National team, the choice of eleven players and the game strategy. The common saying is there are 15 million coaches and different opinions for the choices to be made.
That’s how I read this community where there is some focus on issues, candidates and activism needed to reach certain goals. On a majority of views I can be in agreement with a fellow member, then one day I read a comment that can be very offensive on his/her view on a topic very dear to me. Should I be discouraged and discard him/her as a political friend? I don’t think so, because what would be left over as group that agrees with me all the time, could be a very lonely bunch, if you understand what I mean.
So, I’m searching for goals that can be reached and gives some satisfaction, as for candidates perhaps just to focus on a single candidate and give my 100%. No fuzz, no quarrels and no lost energy.
I love to debate and discuss, but when it ends in agreement to disagree, that would be very disappointing.
I tried to start writing a political program this week, on the most important issues in order to find a personal direction on the issues I will participate in discussions. Perhaps we should start writing a very concise program on community level and have certain issues covered by the specialists of the community. What do you think?
The Alito debate was crucial for next generation of Americans, but although the cause was lost, get the benefit of knowing how all senators have expressed themselves on the cloture vote and the final approval vote. Always look for the benefits when so much energy was invested, but try to be realistic to the outside, real world and keep focused and remain hopeful for Election 2006 and 2008!
Lots of work needs to be done, with support from a community that would be so much easier.
Always be pragmatic, remember a political candidate suitable for the Democrats in New England states is unsuitable for the Great Plains states and very red territory. I view the choice of Democrats as a majority of minorities, we need to unite and not divide, because by division a majority would become impossible. Bush won some 30 states in 2004, if those red states deliver red senators, the Democrats will always be a minority in the Senate.
“But I will not let myself be reduced to silence.”
▼ ▼ ▼ MY DIARY
You illuminate some very important point.
Effective strategy is usually comprised of many different tactics, and differing tactics are required wherever diverse people are attempting to unite in common cause to address problematic issues.
Even in the smallest, most insular of communities, it is simply not useful to adopt a position that basically rejects the opinions and value of anyone who doesn’t agree with and support every single thing you supprt to the exact same degree as you do. If we trtied to live our lives that way we’d never accord anyone else any legitimacy at all for anything, because no one else is going to have the exact same priorities as each of us does down to the last detail. (And, for what it’s worth, many of us would have to repudiate even ourselves with this approach to judgment, because we change our own priorities sometimes.
So, the question is, as I see it, “Where do we draw the line?” Can we accept as friends and lovers and persons worthy of respect people who don’t agree with us in every instance all the time? Of course we can and we do so all the time. This is not to say that there aren’t boundaries to such fellowship, it is only to say that an absolutist mindset that says that only those who agree with ones own views completely are deserving of friendship or respect or have value is a dysfunctional mindset at it’s core.
In politics, it’s fundamentally the same question, modified only slightly. Can I support someone in opposition to someone else even when that person doesn’t adhere exactly to my own beliefs? And conversely, can I refuse to support someone like that even when doing so might enable and even worse thug to rise to power?
In the last presidential election I would have voted for a dead dog if I thought it would get Cheney and his band of psychopaths out of office. I “might” have even voted for a so-called “pro life” Dem if it could have gotten the Bush lunatics out. If I were living in Pennsylvania right now, however, despite it being my home state and despite the fact that I regard Santorum as a totally repugnant sicko, I can’t imagine I’d ever cast my vote for anti abortion rights crusader Casey, even if it meant Santorum would win.
These are examples of where I “draw the lines”, so to speak, between where I’ll give support to the lesser bum and where I won’t. But I acknowledge that there are instances in which I see one or the other of these
choices as appropriate. I cannot say honestly to myself, I will always choose one or the other. If supporting a bum in the short term might save the life of a loved one, I might do it. Like in the story “Sophie’s Choice”, she agreed to the demands of her abusers because she thought doing so would preserve the life of her remaining child.
Sbj – to you and to all who have responded – thanks for your very thoughtful questions and responses.
I realized for me that the cloture vote was a watershed moment.
This dilemma of voting for a lesser evil (and as others have noted it is still evil) and voting for a candidate that closer reflects one’s beliefs has been going on for a long time.
Seeing the final list of 19 “sell outs” and the final vote on Alito (58 – 42), I realized that those 19 Democrats had no sense of the importance of party unity or support.
The four who voted “aye” on cloture and voted “yes” to confirm Alito show more consistency, perhaps even integrity. But the 15 who voted “aye” for cloture and “NO on confirming Alito show me only a Democrat party with a hollow core.
If this is what we get when we vote for the lesser evil than I wonder if we are only fooling ourselves that voting makes any difference at all.
I am pondering some things also. What if we are not in a nation-state era but rather a corporate-nation era. If we are, then where might we effect change? Is the voting booth too late?
Could we work to effect change within the corporate world? How? What would that look like?
Do we direct energies to showing corporations how dangerous Bush’s policies are? To investors?
The cloture vote on Monday followed by the Alito confirmation on Tuesday…I felt I was looking at emptiness – a void, perhaps more apt – a black hole that was absorbing all the light.
One dollar at a time…
I’m on the board a Buy Blue and we are working to get retail consumers to support progressive companies and not companies like Wal-Mart. First it was just where the political dollars are going and now it is getting volunteers to help rate them on progressive values. Social responsibility, progressive labor practices, the environment. Check the web site for companies…then spread the word. Our first year has shown a steady increase and conciousness in how people show…even in red states if my family in Utah is any indicator.
I’ll respond in full later because you have some great questions I want to think about first.
(I have the flu and am barely awake!)
SallyCat – your holiday Buy Blue info was very helpful – thanks.
As I was thinking my way through my comment, our role as consumers came to mind and your Buy Blue. That is definitely a piece of any action.
(Sorry you’re not well.)
And I thank you tampopo for coming here too and expressing your thoughts.
There are many different directions from which to approach these issues of determining what’s important to us and what kind of choices we feel we need to make to uphold those things, and I thought it important thaty we be able to talk about it all.
Philosophically speaking, in a perfect world none of us would ever be faced with decisions that might involve compromising our principles at times in order to prevent a greater harm. and tragically, our human history is far too full of examples where this sort of delicate and far reaching calculus has resulted in unmitigated catastrophe for millions of our forebearers.
But, we are not living in a perfect world, not by a long shot, and because of this, we are faced with choices that are often not easy, not clearly defined, and certainly not free of compromise. In Buddhism, it is often said that “Life is Suffering”, and while I’m not a practising Buddhist, I think this “life is suffering” concept refers in part to exactly this sort of thing; that we are faced with decisions we’d prefer not to have to make sometimes. We are faced with choices that may require us to enable harm to one in order to prevent harm to many. And these sorts of choices are not always avoidable and never bring pleasure.
I’ve learned relatively late in life that doing the right thing is not always synonymous with doing the happy thing. I realize there are times when supporting a small bum in order to deny power to a bigger and more malevolent bum is called for. I dread those decisions; I get angry when I find myself in the position of seeing such a choice as necessary because I want a world where such decisions don’t need to be made. I weas angry when I felt I should vote for Kerry as a way of stopping Bush. I had no faith in Kerry, I had no respect for him and felt he’d be a terrible president who’d only worsen and weaken the principled foundation of the country and of the party by his endless equivocating and his hollow, ambiguous rhetoric. But I voted for him anyway, despite my anger and disenchantment, because I had just a few months before literally come back from the dead and felt I had to make my mark in opposition to the Bush gang on the off chance they’d be defeated.
Another thing is that I don’t see this stuff in terms of good vs. evil. the term “lesser of two evils” is a useful metaphor for describing the relation between two unpalatable alternatives, but I’m a “cause and effect” sort of person, not a judgment-based, “good vs. evil” type. I believe that the more you compromise the more likely it is you’ll wind up surounded by things and people you don’t want around you at all. (the very arc of the life cycle for so many in our society follows this path of compromise. So many work so hard when they are young and forego the things they want to do and experience for the sake of saving it all for a retirement which for so many brings nothing but resentment and anger and despondency.) So I’m not an advocate for compromise as a way of life, but I do recognize that there are times when it’s necessary.
I would hope that others might be able to accept the idea that both compromise and standing up for principle have merit and are not mutually exclusive in an absolutist sense. Rather than defending one or the other viewpoint, it seems to me we could be discussing how to better define when one works best for us and the other doesn’t, and vice versa.
As for your remarks about corporations, I think one of the biggest mistakes we made here in America and later in the rest of the world was when we accorded fundamental human civil rights to corporate entities. We’ll be paying in blood for that massive blunder until the next ice age comes, but that’s another story.
I will confess that I have “absolutist envy.” I am envious of those who are “absolute purists” and “absolute pragmatists.”
I, too, am new to politics. This tool – the computer and internet and blogging – are marvels! I don’t know if those who have grown up with them or do not remember a time without them realize what political involvement required BC (before computers).
BC political involvement meant meetings – evening meetings. I never got involved as I spent my life’s time other ways.
My need to get involved was limited by my choices. By the time primaries have arrived in my state, the choice has pretty much been made. I have always voted for Dems as my idea of the Democrat party was that it was closer to what I believed. I have held my nose for all of them.
I will qualify my always voting for Dems by saying I voted Republican twice – both times for Bill Clinton.
I found the Reagan presidency my first steps into the surreal. Through 8 years, I kept asking, “Who is running this government?” I felt he proved that a President didn’t need to have two coherent thoughts, just a “pretty face.” The adoration he inspired made me ill. His “less govmint” while I watched the beltway area blossom sickened me.
Then Bush. I moved from the surreal to the nightmare.
My involvement has been increasing and my knowledge has certainly grown. I’m not sure about my understanding.
Truly, following the cloture vote and then the confirmation vote has me wondering whether we even have a two party system.
Not only do I question what I should do with my vote, but also with my energy, time, and money. The Bush nightmare continues. How much time do we have?
These are dark times, that’s for sure. I was here for the murder of Kennedy, Johnson’s escalation of the Vietnam debacle, thrise of the true sociopath Nixon, and all the rest to follow, and to my mind, the days have never been darker for our country and for mankind than they are today as a result of these absolute maniacs in the Bush regime.
But we cannot let their insanity rob us of our own humanity, of our own capacity for love and compassion, and we cannot let them so crush our spirit that we no longer have the ability to work towards what we think is right, even when doing so seems to have no effect.
This but one more way in which tyrants always win; by so demoralizing those who oppose them that they finally succumb to despair and give up the fight.
We must retain our ability to laugh and to enjoy whatever good we can perceive. We can’t let these insane monsters rob us of even that.
I live in Mississippi, home of wing-nuttery and absolutism.
Whenever I have ventured on this board to state an opinion that it might be necessary in some places and at some times to vote for a conservative Dem who agrees with %50 percent of my positions instead of a total ass-hat who agrees with %0 of my positions, I have been told by many many commenters here to STFU. For some people, the absolute and only possible view is to never ever ever under absolutely any circumstances whatsoever vote for a conservative Dem.
I say that there are times and places where sticking to your guns is the answer, and times and places where voting for the less egregious candidate is necessary. You can argue with some absolutists until you are blue in the face (and the neck) but they will cling to their positions in absolute defiance of the facts on the ground.
NO liberal Dem will get elected from Mississippi in any state wide race in the current scheme of things.
For me, in this place and time I will hold my nose and vote for a conservative Dem. If we could get rid of Mississippi’s total ass-hat wingnut R’s and replace them with moderate to conservative Dems as a means of achieving a Dem majority, the majority Dems would be better for our country than the thuglican loot and pillage operations.
I do not advocate my position as an absolute and unbending strategy to be applied everywhere else, but I know my state.
In seeking out absolute rules for voting behavior in the face of choosing “the lesser of two evils”, those who seek to impose such absolute rules are ignoring reality. Each voter, in each place, and at each time, must make the effort to do the work required to consider the specific outcomes of each possibility for their vote. Those who want to prescribe absolute rules are looking for the easy way out.
I would be glad to have a dialogue, I’ve even tried to have a dialogue like the one you propose, but you can’t argue with absolutists. They will tell you to STFU sooner or later.
I live in Florida where, while there is a strong current of the wingnut insanity driving large segments of the government and the public mind, it’s not by any means as all encompassing as what you are enduring in Missouri. So, I sympathize, but I have it easier than you by a long shot.
And I echo your sentiments about the absolutists in the sense that, if someone is not even willing to engage in dialog that discusses the relevant merits of divergent positions and how either one might be more appropriate than the other in certain instances, well then you simply cannot have a productive exploration of ideas with someone who’s pre-emptive judgmentalism has crippled their ability to entertain new ideas and perspectives.
Whoever “we” are; if we’re progressives, liberals, leftists, democrats, or whatever, if we can’t even manage to utilize the mechanics of reasoned discourse or treat those with different perspective with the kind of basic respect that acknowledges the value of dialog and debate in good faith and for the common good,; if we can’t manage that we’ll keep on coming up with the short end of the stick. We’ll remain divided against ourselves simply because we need to defend our own certitude by denigrating the perspectives of others.
I have much hope that the blogs I frequent here will remain open enough to refute this absolutist “STFU IF YOU DON’T AGREE WITH ME” mutant form of behavior that masquerades as a style of debate. Sadly, I’m not much for counting on hope so I remain concerned in the meantime. there’s so much crap going on these days, and it’s so easy to get pulled off track.
blueneck, your attention is needed desperately in the south section. Will you please give it some direction toyour inquiry. Thank you so very much…now back to the regularly scheduled program…
blueneck,
I just realized I wrote Missouri instead of Mississippi. My apologies. I had actually been talking earlier today to a good friend of mine from Missouri and I think that’s where my mistake may have originated.
I agree that there are lots of places where voting for the lesser of two evils is the only answer. Mississippi or Missouri or Florida, or Utah where my family is, are some of those places. There is a substantial georgraphical part of California that is very red as well. We understand that…but further down I approach why we in the blue zones need to be absolutists.
A lot of my grassroots efforts are to take these counties back and I will work for ‘party candidates’. But we are also building the farm club. Same for other places. You let us know about progressive, grass roots, local candidates that need money and I’ll send it for the mayor’s race if you want.
However here in the San Francisco area most candidates register as Democrat because that’s the only way they can get elected. We shouldn’t have to vote for the lesser of two evils in the 9 counties surrounding SF. Same goes with Joe Lieberman and the CT constituency or NY or Massachussetts. I shouldn’t have to call Feinstein’s office 10 or 20 times about Justice Roberts or Alito votes.
I got into a heated discussion at a meeting one night on a local candidate for a 2 year state seat. That candidate is a DINO and none of his former co-workers in the prosecutors office will support him. But he’s chair of the local Dem Central Committee. They want us to support him in the primaries as the lead Democrat. I’m working my ass off to get someone else elected. If he wins the primary, I’ll work for the Green Party or Independent or Libertarian….maybe the Republican to keep him out of office.
We have term limits so he’s in for a short time but it’s a stepping stone. This is where I become an absolutist this time.
We in the extreme blue zones sold out to moderates and everyone is paying. My county voted 67-70%+ Dem and we had an 85% Dem turnout in 2004. Yet we have to pressure our officials. Locally I’m not caving again.
SallyCat,
I’m with you 100%. My preferred position is always to stand up forthrightly on principle as much as possible. And it is always with regret when I come to the conclusion that supporting thelesser of two evils is necessary to perevent the greater harm from being done. It’s why we look for principled and honest candidates in the first place. It’s why we are so disappointed when those we elect fail us so badly. Because we don’t want to have to make these ugly, “lesser of two evils” calculations, choices neither one of which are palatable.
I’m always pissed when I feel it necessary to support someone I feel is a shitbird just to stop a bigger shitbird from winning. I resent the fact the failures of my party and the electoral system make such decisions necessary, but I’ve become a bit of a realist in the sense that I see that sometimes, for me, these choices are necessary, and I’m wiling to acknowledge that, despite my idealism that would prefer to stand firm on an absolute “never empower a bum under any circumstances” view.
Beyond all this though, the reason I wrote this diary is to help stimulate our ability to talk about these things in a way that acknowledges a reality in which both of these kinds of choices have some value. And I’m very glad we’re doing that here without having descended into the STFU syndrome where so many tend to retreat to, seeming to think defending their own vierw by telling others to shut up is somehow more important than acknowledging larger, if unpleasant realities.
Sbj – you have expressed my frustration so well with this:
I’m always pissed when I feel it necessary to support someone I feel is a shitbird just to stop a bigger shitbird from winning.
In TeacherToni’s diary Janet Starnge makes a very good observation:
I would say that in my political past I looked at candidates as products with a reaction along the lines of, “Oh surely they could do better than that“
When I consider getting more personally involved I consider the time and energy commitment…and then I waffle.
When I consider talk of 20 or 30 years to see the change I want (possibly, maybe), I truly despair because I don’t believe we have that kind of time.
Which takes me back to my dilemma of where do I invest myself now?
sbj, I am rather like you. I am independent and have different views as to things as do the diehards of any certain party. I am sometimes more left than some of those in here…and most certainly those over ont he orange playground. I will never cater to the dlcers or the dsccc or the likes of those. I am very angry towards my rep for being the kind of blue dog democrat that he is. and I am angry that Harold Ford is runing to take frists place in the senate. I am one unhappy camper, to say the least! I want a good and solid democrat or independent to run and win. The bluedongs of the south are just republican lite in my book. If you are of the idea that one needs to take a stand for what one believes in and mean it then we do need to get a third party. However, I do believe this is a 2 party government with a few ind.s in the mix. I would love to see some moe ind.s to come out and win seats in both houses. I think it would play a great deal of lowering the temperment of things. Myabe even say to the old boys club, you now will have to deal with the other side of reality for a change. My hairdresser is a liberitarian and he is sometimes even more left than me! I have a good laugh at him sometimes. and he does make sense too for the most part…gives me a lot to think about anyhow. We all ahve to be more open mindes as to what reality is..it is not tied up in one department of any party..it should be inclusive and we allknwo this aint gonna happen while the dlcers are around.. Frankly I am just one unhappy camper and I do not knwo who I will vote for at this point in my state or for the presidental election…I have really be let down and feel betrayed by the democratic party as a while…Thanks for your idea and for me I will enter your debate with you and others. I was just reading y oru diary and wondering if we could just out the shoe of who is president and vp and their cabinet and so for and so on…cold we get the feel of who, what, when and where..even have a press to cover us..those who are not in the government be the public so we could get a feel as to how we are doing in our rheteric.etc…we used to do this role playing in class when we were taught in supervisors class to leadership and how to organize. It was fun and we did have to follow through on it too..made a lot fo sense once we got in to the actuality of why and what it really meant. Just a thought.
PS; I did see y our questions for the most part was somewhat ethical in nature too..ethics play a lot in many things in how we think and play out our actions and thoughts.
Great to hear from you Brenda. I always have much appreciation for your insights.
Like you I don’t think I’m much of a diehard partisan. I like to make my own decisions as much as possible, and I’m biased toward favoring the truth generally, wherever it may lead.
I like the ideas of participatory democracy,the notion of equality for all and mutual respect, and the idea that we are strongest when we all work together for the common good. I like that our constitution endows us with certain liberties and that it sets restraints upon the governments authority to violate those liberties and privacies.
And, like virtually everyone I know across the entire spectrum of people who are politically engaged, I am angry and frustrated and dismayed about virtually every aspect of the political sphere we’re in.
Frankly, I don’t know where we have to go or what we have to do, or even if we are able to do to get things back on a path towards functional democracy and sanity again. We need to stand up for the things we believe in, and yet, because things are so screwed up, because the system is broken, because the dangerous psychopaths are in power and our putative representatives are too cowardly or too ambitious and self-serving to challenge them; because of all of this we find ourselves faced continually with the kinds of decisions that need to be made involve choices none of which are pleasant or harmless. Like many here and everywhere else, I’m pissed that our “leaders”, have screwed things up so bad that we are faced now with having to make such unpleasant, cruel, and lifestyle threatening choices. They were supposed to be the ones to do all that. They told us things would be better if we voted for them, and they told even those of us that didn’t vote for them that they would still make things better, and they didn’t.
Some days I wake up and at some point before the morning is over I have the thought that the best thing for us would be if aliens from outer space showed up and, in the interests of protecting the indigenous life of the galaxy, neutralized the ability of all politicians and members of the press and business community who lie and cheat and steal to have any further power to screw up other peoples lives with their bullshit. Other times I think the entire system has to collapse in order for us to go forward again.
But whatever other remedies I might imagine, I still believe that if we can’t even talk with each other openly and honestly about what we think we need to be doing to stop the maniacs and regain control of the country without attacking each other whe we disagree, without using the STFU method of killing debate, then we are lost even if those aliens were to come to our rescue. By our intransigence, we’d even screw that up.
I hope this makes sense. It’s a bit of a rant.
Sincerely, I do feel your rant. I am there with you. I wished I had the way to put things the way you do. It makes so much sense. We do need some sort of system that we can talk things out rather than just rant and get angry with each other. I am willing but it is a two way street…and I must have a gentlemans/womans agreement to that fact to not rant…I seem so helpless when I stop to think of things and hwo they have turned out to be and wishing for more ways to get things done than that of todays options. Hugs…
As far as feeling helpless when thinking about how things have turned out, things are still in the process of “turning out”, and new ideas and solutions can still present themselves, even when things appear the most dark and bleak.
And as for talking things out, all we need is mutual respect, a shared desire to work for the comon good in good faith, and a simple fearlessness that allows us to be open to new ideas and new ways of seeing things and which allow us to let go of beliefs and ideas that are no longer working for us rather than defending those ideas just because we want to believe them.
I love our community here at BooTrib. Even when things get a bit testy sometimes between various people, I truly believe we share a lot of those “common good” and “mutual respect” and “sincerity” attributes here on this blog, and that these virtues enable us to keep our truths in sight and our connection to those truths strong.
For all that have been participating in this diary it is terrific to read such thoughtful comments. I think we need to break it into components now.
I’ve started a new diary to continue this conversation. The focus of that diary is how we in the blue areas got complacent and how we can, at the grassroots level, push for strong party candidates with equally strong core values.
“A Question” – Conversation Continuation
After that diary, it would be helpful to move on to how we support moderates or even conservative dems in red areas. Those participating here from very red areas, please think of diaries that will help us help you move the party where we want it to go.