To those of you who are so willing to destroy the party we have now instead of getting involved and working for change….just remember some things.
We have 5 children. Our sons are pretty well off. Our daughters are not, they are just average, getting by everyday people.
The only reason they can look ahead to the Social Security they will get in their 60s, to add to whatever savings they can manage….is because the Democrats held together to stop its destruction. If you scatter out to all kinds of 3rd parties, what will happen to that.
Most of our Democrats did NOT vote for the disastrous Medicare bill. It would not have passed without Nick Smith having his arm twisted in late night session.
I don’t like the votes many have taken, but guess what…they are starting to pay attention whether they want to or not. The primaries are where we will make the difference.
If you leave and diminish the Democrats in a year that we have a good chance of winning back on part of congress, what will you gain?
Who is going to stand up for few remaining rights of women? Not every Democrat is like Tim Kaine in his views on women. Not all are like Casey in his anti-choice views. Very few are anti-gay at all. Governor Dean is being blasted here on this issue which is very unfair. Only one side is being presented, and that is not playing fair.
For those of us who are not part of the gay community, it is hard to see past the words you are saying. But I have done some checking into it, and most of that community are keeping an open mind on what Howard Dean is organizing. The paper that started this bashing hired on Jeff Gannon unapologetically. That should tell you something.
Who is going to stand for the rights of any of us when all the groups scatter. A man was on radio today saying that the Black community should form its own party. Again, Governor Dean is constantly meeting with them, discussing their issues.
Labor unions, who will stand up for them? Most of my family are Republicans, and through all the years of catapulting the propaganda….they have been taught to hate unions. They despise them, there is no way to reason with them. The Democrats did a lousy job for a while, but Edwards and Dean and Kerry and others are working with them.
None of us are going to get all our issues and wishes fully met, it just is not going to happen. I am far older than most of you here. I see things from a different perspective, from a different viewpoint than most….from a viewpoint far more in keeping with most of the country right now. I was raised in the fundamentalist atmosphere, and I simply want to praise Howard Dean for the open way he deals with the issues of women’s choice and the issues of the gay community.
He said on Hardball he did not believe in using the words pro-choice because they had been misused for so long. People understood that who are not like a lot of us here. They got it.
He is trying to dialogue with the gay community, but he can not give you all you want. He can’t. He does not have the power to do that.
So though I am discouraged at times, I will stay and work to change it. That is not popular to say on any of the liberal forums now. It is much more desirable to plan to leave.
The GOP is dangerous, totally dangerous. They are suppressing more of our rights every day. And all we do is infight, little banding together. It is giving them more power than ever. That is a very scary thought.
Thank you, floridagal. There is a strong splinterific culture on the left – I feel it tempted by it myself quite often in the face of recent events.
However, I think you are correct. I am sad to see so much drawing of lines before any significant change has been sought in those who “represent” us. Reform is going to take a long time. I think that is what Dean is about, and I’m not going to back away from him because he is not in a position to change all that I believe he would like to change. If we fall apart rather than keep working toward fixing those things that dissatisfy us tremendously, we will never have those things consolidated in our lifetime.
Meanwhile, the rightwingers are delighted to see the progressives fulfill what James Carville called us: (just) a group of special interests.
None of us are going to get all our issues and wishes fully met, it just is not going to happen.
Haven’t seen a thing about disability rights, so why not go elsewhere since what is the most one of important to me is not being addressed?
I was a teacher, a specialization in handicapped for several years. I know those are needed, but under the Republicans the rights are being corroded. Which group will you go to who has the power and structure to stand up for you.
I do not expect my stand to be liked at all. That does not matter to me at this time in our history. The Greens are not powerful enough yet, there is no other group on the horizon big enough to fight the juggernaut.
I have thought 3rd party, but I think it more likely there will be one formed from a Democratic/Republican union instead of on the left end.
I wish I felt differently, but I have to put my faith, money, and actions somewhere. We are supposed to be at a large donor fundraiser for Nelson next week, but we are not going. We made our voice heard as to why. We will not campaign for him, though we will vote for him because he is better than Katherine Harris.
I am not saying popular things, but I am saying real life things.
My reality is havng to live below the Federal poverty level while the dems keep saying wait. I’ve waited long enough and been lied to too many times. And you say that you know these rights are needed and have been corroded, what have you done to advocate the opposite?
I do not see anyone advocating for me and my rights Only caving into the republicans voting yes on tax cuts so they can be re-electd.
Look at it from my perspective: As a person with a disability, I am much more concerned about disability rights than your children’s social security checks. And BTW, my monthly income is approximately $600.00. The guilt trip won’t work.
Maybe other people who have more than I do need to go without what they were anticipating in order to bring about change.
If I came across not caring, I am most sorry. I just don’t think the Republicans care at all. They are still trying to do away with all social programs, all security nets. If they can, they will. Apparently Bush can just declare it done now, since he appears to be dictator he wanted to be.
Hey, I know I am fighting a losing battle. I don’t hold out hope at all that we will hang together to win this fall. But I try, and I try not to insult people doing it.
I do care about everyone’s Social Security and everyone’s Medicare. And Medicaid. I care that the way things are most of the younger people here will be working until 70s or older. I have already met people like that, going back to work in the 60s and 70s. It is already happening because of lost investments.
I care about you.
IMO, the democrats don’t care either. I haven’t seen anything from them to show otherwise. IIRC, it was supersoling who described it best–leaving an abusive relationship. So, I am going 3rd party–Green.
As I said to someone else, it seems like we have the same long term goals in mind, just differ on our methods of how to achieve them. And neither of us will convince the other that the choice/decision that was made was incorrect.
I just want to see more activism on behalf of people with disabilities. If the dems ever decide to show they care and take that course, maybe I’ll be back. Till then, I’m gone. And going 3rd party is not giving up.
Will tell you a bit more about my family background–members of my family were active in the organization of the UAW. (I was born and raised in Detroit. And there are many others w/a similar ancestry.)
The ones who really put their butts on the line–the unsung heroes that have been ignored by the history books. But without them, there would have been no UAW. In other words, they literally fought the system and won! Think I can too. But not within the current power structure.
I believe that you care. However, action is needed. Do you see what I mean?
Money and feet on the ground. Have been since we got on board with the Dean Campaign about 3 years ago.
Yes, action is needed. We have run candidates for office locally, we have walked neighborhoods getting petitions signed.
I am saying the strength we need by working together is the only thing we have right now.
The Republicans care nothing for the disabled. Our neighbors are losing a lot under this administration. We spend hours on the phone trying to help them get what they should have, but it is so frustrating.
Most of the Democrats do care.
Most of the Democrats do care.
They say they do. But, you wouldn’t know it by their votes on legislation that has a severe impact on people with disabilities. And I am referring specifically to Medicare D.
We spend hours on the phone trying to help them get what they should have, but it is so frustrating.
How do you think I feel, having to do all of that myself? (What remains of my family is scattered all over the country.) And there are many more, besides me, in that situation who are referred to God-knows-how-many places only to be referred back to the one they originally started with!
If anyone should be speaking out on the unmet needs of people with disabilities, it should be a doctor. Or have I missed something?
My wife has cerebral palsy. The current ADA law, as it stands now is an improvement over what existed before, but damn it doesn’t have enough teeth to be all that effective. Let’s just say that we’ve seen enough discrimination toward her to last a few lifetimes.
The ADA is a joke now, as it has been repeatedly gutted by court decisions and used against people with disabilities. I am a traumatic brain injury survivor, and I know what has happened to me (prefer not to go into specifics). So I understand exactly where you are coming from–no doubt that your wife and I have probably had some similar experiences, unfortunately. And, disability rights have been ignored for too long. That has got to change and I do not see the dems doing a thing to change it. (Oh, they give lip service now and then, usually during a photo-op, but nothing more.) And, I am tired of being told that to wait. I’ll bet you and your wife feel the same way.
I can guarantee you that no one ever tells my wife to wait for anything! 🙂
It’s that sort of stubbornness that led me to fall in love w/her 14 years ago.
lol. Know what you mean. But, I was referring to the so-called leadership of this country, always pitting one group against another. It’s sickening.
I agree w/ya! The “leadership” sucks!
floridagal, I understand what you’re saying, but I think fear is skewing your perception a bit. It is not we who would destroy the party, but those who sit in Washington. They have “transformed” the Democratic party into something I do not recognize.
After five years the Democrats have lots of dry powder, and the Republicans have a lot of unfair and repressive laws. The Democrats have not fought for us, and yes, I realize they are in the minority. However, they’re also supposed to be the opposition party, and they have not opposed much of anything.
I won’t give up the fight, but I’ll be picking my battles and my champions. I don’t have to do that under the banner of “Democrat”.
As long as we continue to reward the Schumers and the Emmanuels by “going along” they have no reason to change their method of operation. They need to experience some negative consequences. Otherwise we have no hope of reform. Howard Dean is fighting from the bottom by strengthening the states. I’m still fighting too, but from the outside.
I know things need changing. We work hard locally with DFA and the DNC. Dean can talk all he wants about rebuilding in the states…and I agree with that totally. But it takes support and money.
If it is fear, it is fear that we don’t see what we are doing to ourselves. I would go 3rd party, but there is NOT one.
Yes, I am very worried. I think the progressives withholding support from the one who is trying to change the structure is going to bring more harm than what the right wing Democrats will do.
It is going to be huge fight, and we are splitting away from each other. Yes, it scares me a little. It is fear we will lose again in November to take back part of congress.
Your positions are not mutually exclusive. Different approaches, but in the end the only thing that counts is where you put your “X”. Pressure by denial-of-assistance means they open “the Gate”. No crashing required.
An offer of mice, from Kiefer Sutherland and his grandfather, Tommy Douglas: “Mouseland” animated video
If Canadian progressives had stuck solely with the Liberal Party (aka “the black cats”), it is likely that Canada would have a health care system just like the US today. It took Tommy Douglas and the New Democrats to bring universal single payer health coverage (and many other important advances in social justice) to Canada:
The history of the New Democratic Party
How can we mice ever prosper if we always vote for cats? “Mouseland” animated video
Thanks for the link!
I too felt that the only way to defeat the republicans this year and coming years is to hold my nose and stick with the dems, as recently as the past few months. I don’t feel that way anymore.To do so is like rewarding bad behavior in a child. As long as you keep bailing the child out and there are no consequences, the bad behavioe will continue. Why would it not? When there are no consequences you end up with a Bush.
As long as we keep saying, well ok, you didn’t vote to fight the most important nominations for the Supreme Court in our lifetimes, will let that one go but please investigate NSA spying ok? They just shut that down yesterday. I am appalled by the republicans power but I am just as deeply appalled by the Dems lack of spine. They are not fighting for anything. Wait til November? For what? A bunch of republican lite candidates that Shumer and Reid have picked? You want a Casey? You vote for him. I won’t. Shumer doesn’t even believe in the primary system anymore. Look what they did to Hackett. The system, on both sides of the aisle imho is broken and continuing to wait and see is no longer working for me. The Greens may not be strong right now but boy if everyone took the energy they have been expending on the Dems and gave to the Greens or a completely new party we might have a chance for change. I think it is too late to change the Dems at this point. They haven’t shown me one good reason in five years to stay with them.
The “boys” at the top have convinced themselves they can only win if they “look like republicans.” I haven’t wanted to believe this. I have wanted to think it is just one or two here and there. But if you saw Charlie Rose last night and his discussion with the Gov. of Pa. the picture became crystal clear.
The gov. was the former head of the DNC. He doesn’t like Howard Dean, although he weasel-worded his reply to sound like Howard’s ok, but he doesn’t get it. But Howard is good because he will bring us the MONEY from the Blogs and the little people. . .he proved that in 2004.
What I took away from this interview was that ONLY the big boys in the party know what is good for us and YES, it is important that they run PRO-life and Anti-Gay candidates in order to get the republican and indy votes. And anyone that doesn’t see it that way should just shut up because they obviously are either very naive or stupid. And YES only they should pick the candidates to run, the people just don’t have enough savy to do that.
YES. . .the blogs and the little guy grass root donors are their hidden ATM machine. . .What a windfall! He was gleeful in his expression of this. Salivating, as it were.
The Democratic party picture painted by the gov made me sick to my stomach. The party no longer stands for anything but to be re-elected, and they are not promising to stand for any of the things that we feel are important ie. . .human rights, womens rights, gay rights, privacy. . .or anything else. ONLY THEY know what is good for us and they will do it as THEY see fit.
The gov was very aimiable and smiling and chuckling and aw shucks just an all around nice fella while he said these things.
I want no more of them and they will get no more of my money, time and effort as a Party. I will seclect the individuals that stand for what I stand for and I will support them. The Democratic Party that I have known is DEAD!
a benefit, then I don’t think those who seek a move toward democracy have anything to offer you.
If you are well off enough financially, of the mainstream demographic, have no health issues, or have enough money to purchase medical treatment for them, and committed to the “war on terror” above all other things, then I can’t see any reason you would wish to leave the corporate party.
However, all those “thems” you refer to, gay people, ethnic minorities, you don’t refer to the poor, but I will throw them in as another “them,” the reality is that those “thems” have different priorities than you do, different needs, and one of those needs is a government that represents “them” as opposed to the corporations. One of those needs is to not be considered “thems” by their government, but part of “us.”
The corporate party has nothing to offer any of those “thems,” and while they may appreciate a stirring speech as much as the next person, a lot of those “thems” have a different perspective about this gradual maybe one day pie in the sky that their grandparents were told, in some cases their great grandparents.
Here is another unpopular truth, but one that may be of comfort to you. The Democratic party does not need those “thems.” They have their base: affluent, mainstream Americans who support US policies, both foreign and domestic, but who like them worded and presented a little more attractively.
They certainly don’t need the poor, who don’t vote in large numbers, have no money to send them, and most of whom are slated for elimination anyway.
They don’t need obstructionists who oppose profitable ventures like the “war on terror” and are permanently set in anti-business whine mode, when everybody knows that mainstream Americans do not want socialized medicine.
They don’t need gay people, who put them in difficult and embarrassing positions and could negatively impact mainstream Americans sending them money.
They increasingly don’t need people with wacky notions about organized labor that get all up in living wage, thus leading them into another anti-business briarpatch, when everybody knows mainstream Americans see a living wage as a handout, and Americans don’t want handouts. That’s not going to help getting organized labor transitioned into what it should be: more like a quality circle to help corporations increase profits.
They obviously don’t need the sick and the elderly, who are not likely to make any profit for anybody, many of them don’t even generate a revenue stream, and most are also slated for elimination anyway.
And they need shrill demanding so-called “feminists” like a fish needs a bicycle. Let’s face it, most of these gals could afford a trip down to St Whatever if they ever need an abortion, which isn’t likely since so many of them are past childbearing age, don’t wear makeup or high heels, or are lesbians, thus making it improbable that they will ever need one, which means that their shrillness is largely about poor women, who we have already mentioned are not needed unless it is time for their shift at Wal-Mart, in which case they are needed there, some of them, if they are not too fat and don’t have health problems, another “them” that has already been covered.
So you can see that the people who want to see the US move toward democracy have nothing at all to offer you, and constitute such a small minority, mostly comprised of people that the Democrats don’t need to get “elected” any more than the Republicans do.
So just keep sending money to the indistinguishable millionaires with their exceptional hair and impeccable designer suits, and don’t worry about the radical fringe, and let the Diebold company do its job.
I really don’t. I just read what you wrote, and it does not sound like you even took time to read mine at all.
I could repeat and reword it here, but if that is what you took from it….then there is nothing I can say.
who are not happy with corporate rule will, one way or another, claim their right to a voice that expresses that they want a government, they want legitimate statehood.
I do not think that this faction, this small, weak, tremulous fringe, as it is, has anything to offer those who are happy with the status quo. It is not a question of deserving or not deserving.
You are asking “what can they offer me?” to people who simply have nothing to offer you, any more than the corporate party has anything to offer them.
At this point, since they are striving, I believe probably in vain, to wrest a political solution from a situation so extreme that it is not likely that a political solution is possible, but I respect their courage in making the effort, so I guess if they are offering you anything it is a chance for an outcome that will be better for your interests than any of the alternatives.
Why don’t they have something to offer me in place of what they are saying is worthless? Why don’t they offer something else in its place?
That is what I am asking. Why is it ok to advocate destroying what we have, and offering nothing. I don’t understand.
or perceive that you have, and which does not really matter, if it is meeting your needs.
They, and I do not mean just the “they” who post here, but the larger “they,” which is a collection of the various “thems” outlined in my previous post, do not receive a benefit. They are not happy with corporate rule, with the status quo, which is not sustainable.
And what they have to offer you is not so worthless.
If a correction can be effected through political means, it will be better for you, in my opinion, than if effected through other means, whether internally or externally imposed.
Looking back through history, you will begin to appreciate that what they offer may be very precious indeed, if it can be done, but as I said, I am not really the one to be presenting this argument, I believe the window for political solution has closed, and this very small radical fringe, so long despised and disenfranchised, yet so certain and resolute in their determination to make you this gift, have small chance for success, but I admire them for having the courage, and the love for you, to try.
Let me try to explain.
We have no vocal left in America. The left has aligned itself with the Democrats, and is told, in essence, send us money, vote for us, and STFU.
This leaves us with two parties, one far right and the other moderately right.
It is clear that the Democratic strategists are willing to sell out virtually every principle cherished by the left in hope of wooing the bigot vote, the greed vote, the misogynist vote, the rapacious capitalist vote, the pro-war vote, the anti-labour vote, the tough-on-crime vote, the anti-regulation vote, the bomb-the-UN vote, the send-them-back-where-they-came-from vote, the make-this-a-Christian-nation vote, the no-special-rights-for-cripples vote, the faggots-burn-in-hell vote, the speak-English-or-else vote, the kill-all-the-towelheads vote, and anything else they can pick up.
The left must move out from under the wing of the Democratic party if we are to be heard. Ultimately, this is good for Democrats. With loony lefties like me screaming my ass off about full service socialism, the Democrats can move to the left and still look to the rest of the country like moderates.
Why settle for fakes? You might as well vote republican!
Since I’m one of the angry queers, I assume I’m part of the intended audience for this diary, so let me say a few words in response.
First of all, I am not a Democrat. I am way to the left of the Democratic party. I am an independent, liberal/progressive, non-affiliated with any party because imo they all are too wrapped up with corporate interests to actually represent any particular people’s best interests. Nonetheless, I have no interest in destroying the Democratic party. I very seriously doubt that many other gays have any interest in destroying the party. And I very seriously doubt that any gays would be even remotely interested in that idea if the party actually represented us, which it doesn’t. Most of us would simply like to see Democrats representing the people who elect them, and the general principles of democracy like equality for all, and that’s it.
Now w/r/t equality for gays, allow me to please explain to you that this is not about “getting everything we want”. Getting our basic equal rights is not “getting everything we want” — it’s getting everything you already have. I’m sure it’s difficult for you to see that, since “what we want” are things you’ve had all your life and you can therefore take for granted.
Let me assure you that most gay people are fully aware — far more so than non-gay people — of just how dangerous the GOP is. We’re furious with Democrats, in part, for not protecting us from the constant legislative harassment of the GOP! It’s not straight people’s families who are being torn apart by these heinous, hateful constitutional amendments and other gay-bashing laws passing all over the country. These laws are destroying our families, shattering our future abilities to build families, constantly threatening us financially and legally, not to mention the way it makes you feel to live your life as a second or third class citizen in your own country. And whenever we complain about any of it, we then have to sit around and listen to Democrats tell us that equality is too much. That we’re being beaten to death in fewer numbers so, really, what do we want already? Don’t we know we can’t “get all our issues and wishes fully met”?
Well, I’m sorry, but equality is not negotiable. Equality is not a perk. Equality is not an “issue” or a “wish”. It’s the bedrock legal principle of a secular democratic republic, and that anyone is frustrated with the gays who are being oppressed just for complaining about it is both disgusting and outrageous.
Along with a wide variety of other “special interest groups” (“them”), I think it better to remain unaffiliated with a party, but perhaps coordinate within a larger community-of-interest. With enough people signed on, the party will come to you.
In a nutshell, your comment sums up what I am doing hanging around at Democratic blogs in the first place. 🙂
It does get difficult, though, hearing so many people trivialize the struggles of my community as though we were third graders demanding a fictional flavor of ice cream and then throwing a hissy fit over not getting it. These things take time, I realize, but it’s pretty demoralizing to have the Republicans constantly treating me like an overly aggressive leper and the Democrats near-constantly treating me like a pariah.
But it’s one of my top priorities to find newer and better ways to make more powerful political coalitions (regardless of structure), and I know that the liberal community is my best shot at that, so I’ve been taking a metric ton of crap from Democrats since 2000 (prior to which time my political involvement took a much less mainstream approach).
Not the same way yours has, but in many ways. Since we retired, our so-called benefits package for health insurance has quadrupled in cost. Our paid for house will before long be unaffordable if real estate taxes keep rising here percentage wise.
I guess I am rather stunned that I can not communicate better than that anymore. I used to be able to as a teacher.
My family has been hurt badly, we are divided, our kids have a far worse future than they had just 3 or 4 years ago.
I did not realize how bad things had become when Governor Dean is the bad guy in this. And I am now on everyone’s list of corporate lovers.
What is happening here?
The communication gap here is the failure in recognizing that your problems, stated in your comment, are a product of the bipartisan system, including democrats who have been in office.
Of course I realize why we are where we are today. I am furious with Democrats and Republicans alike. I just can’t see how walking away will solve our problems.
I don’t think it’s necessarily an either or proposition: either hold your nose and accept the status quo OR walk away.
Rather, I want to keep an open mind about other options. I think several of us here are arguing for a more inclusive progressive front that would include various political action groups and think tanks operating independently of the Democrat party.
Note that this doesn’t have to mean a wholesale abandonment of the Democrats – it merely means that the Democrats no longer have a lock on progressive votes, time, and money. It means that support for candidates who might be affiliated with other parties or who are independent who do represent progressive values get that support in the absence of a reasonable Democrat candidate. The Democrat party would then either adapt to that new reality, or it would eventually go the way of the Whigs, as something new takes shape.
I’m catching up after being off-line for about a day (first February thunderstorm I have ever seen whacked my modem — think “The Day After Tomorrow” — and a sure sign that something is wrong with our political system and its inability to even address the most fundamental problem facing us — i.e., that we are profiting ourselves into semi-extinction).
I appreciate the diary FG. But I like JB’s response. Complicated problem facing us.
The way I see your diary, it is the same thing that centrist Democrats have been saying all my life. Something like, “We might not be winning right now, and when we do win, we might govern like a watered down version of what you are voting against, but you have to stick with us and support us — because those other guys are reall, REALLY awful.”
The other guys are really awful. I’ll concede it. But I sure as heck want to build toward something worth having. And I’m thinking that a mixed approach, working outside and inside the party is sounding like a good way to pursue the change many of us are seeking.
$.02
Yeah, just like all of us ‘thems’ who seem to have always had not only our own interests in mind, but the interests of the collective, have been trying to say at least since Perot (in my case, since Reagan).
Hate to say ‘we told ya so,’ but we did. We saw it coming because it was hitting us and hitting us hard long before the boom began falling on your lives.
And we tried to tell you–this trickle-down poverty will hit your community sooner or later.
And it is doing that right now.
Welcome to the real world.
I don’t think that is fair. You just did that. I could tell you more about my “real world”, but it would not matter.
I have been fighting hard against this trickle down stuff since Reagan. My husband was out of work more than he worked during the Reagan years. We saw the results in our community of his horrible policy of closing mental hospitals…turning many out on the street. It was a terrible time that he media turned into great time, just like they are doing now.
We fought then, we fought now. I will keep fighting. I am not stupid and ignorant, I am not a snob. I think those kind of things should be reserved for those who deserve it.
First of all, I’m not insulting your intelligence in any way. My point above is that all of our interests vary and it’s harder to stand up fo interests that aren’t particularly yours. The trouble with that is as time passes, the interests that are represented dwindle and it’s limited to apply to a smaller group.
The message I got from your initial diary is that it wasn’t really a problem until now.
For clarity, I’m not advocating a third party at this time unless it develops on it’s own without a predetermined plan.
The message I got from your initial diary is that it wasn’t really a problem until now.
So it wasn’t just me.
Yeah, and I’m in agreement with several of your comments. I’m not sure I’ve read them all so I have to put that disclaimer in.
😉
I’m still only partway down this thread…lol
They should be.
But unfortunately those people don’t show up here at BT to be attacked.
But you did. And we appreciate it. We appreciate it so much.
Because we were getting tired of attacking each other in the same old way over the past few weeks. That was so boring. It’s so much nicer to attack you.
And you’ve been so much fun. We REALLY like to play with our prey. That’s so much more fun than simply killing it.
So keep it up. Keep trying to convince us that you’re just like us and you understand us and you’re on our side. Go ahead. Because that just opens the gate for us to attack you even more. Because, god damn it, NOBODY is like us.
And if you don’t understand that — you must die.
That’s all there is to it.
floridagal, in case there’s any misunderstanding, that was snark.
My bruises and I thank you very much.
This is not about calling you a snob.
We all have an outrage point that can’t be pushed past. Many of us have reached that point with the Democratic leadership.
Some of our outrage points are personal, and some are universal.
You are willing, for the time being, to stick with the current leadership.
What is your outrage point ?
If the Republicans reinstituted slavery, and a few Democrats voted for it, and the rest kept their powder dry again, would that do it for you ?
Many of us have seen “our” leadership sell out, over and over and over, the principles we hold dear.
It is understandable that some of us suspect supporters of the not-quite-so-bad party do not appriciate just how much damage has been done, is being done, and will be done to those less fortunate and oppressed among us.
We are tempted to think that if you still support the slightly lesser of two evils, you just don’t get it.
Because some days I’m fed up to the teeth with expediency, and other days I want to be practical, I can’t fault you for trying to make the best of a bad situation. Maybe you’re right, I don’t know, but it leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.
Yes, Maryb, and it’s so much more fun when you take sideswipes instead of attacking in head-on confrontation.
I luv u too babe!
I would love to be one of the average people that you mentioned in your diary. But I’m not. I’m one of “them”. The implication in your diary is that it is necessary for “them” to go without and stick w/the dems for “average” people, as opposed to the “average” people standing up for those who need a voice more/”them”.
And here is a critical view: The way that it/the diary is presently written comes across as self-centered. So I am doing just what you are by standing up for myself, as I see no one standing up for me.
Why is that so difficult to understand?
Disagree: The communications gap is the failure to realize that others have been hurt far worse.
One of the key things that you appear to be failing to understand about the outrage of many gay people is that we have been hurt in the same ways as you have, but we have also been hurt in additional ways. Chronically. Throughout our whole lives. In other words, these oppressions and fears that you are newly suffering under — they are not new to us, we have been dealing with them already for our whole lifetimes, plus many more that don’t apply to you, never have, and probably never will.
The chronic inequalities and insititutionalized bigotries have handicapped many of us gays from even having a house and a pension to be threatened under this regime. I don’t have a house. I have Medicare and nothing else. I became disabled at age 29. I come from a family full of homophobes so I am on my own. I was homeless at age 16 due to the homophobia in my family. I lived in the street due to insititutionalized bigotry in the system. I’ve been discriminated against in both employment and housing, all perfectly legal, mind you. I grew up in Florida, where, if I had had children by any method, they could have been legally taken away from me. I have not even been given half the the chance to build the life you’ve enjoyed up until now.
And I’m one of the lucky queers, because I’m still alive. This stuff has killed lots of my friends already. Damn, I went to more funerals in the 80s and the 90s than I can bear to remember.
Now, I understand that you are freaked out. We’re all freaked out around these parts. But here’s what made me so angry about your diary that I am still trembling: you do not seem to appreciate that equality is non-negotiable, and that it is not some creamy frosting on an optional cake. Your words seem to trivialize my struggle, my life. And you did it from a superior presumptive kind of place — you did not even start this dialogue with a question such that you could be sure you understood where we might be coming from. You do not appear to understand where we are coming from. For example, you say the primaries are where “we’ll make a difference”, but you do not seem to understand that when people like Chuck Pennachio are attacked and hobbled by the powerful Democratic machine then we gay people lose the ONLY CHANCE AT REPRESENTATION that we had. And it wasn’t Republicans who went after Pennachio.
Finally, as far as Dr. Dean is concerned, most of us are just furious at the way the Democratic party machine is treating gays, and only mad at Dr. Dean to the extent that he’s enabling it rather than fighting against it. If he fought against it, we’d rally around him just like we did on the campaign trail.
that was an amazing post. Really, really well articulated and powerful and convincing and informative, and on point.
Yet, having said all that, I don’t think it is quite fair to floridagal that her diary deserves such a response.
It is so easy to be accidentally dismissive of someone’s most core issues when writing about party unity. It an occupational hazard for me.
How to make the point that a party that is in the minority cannot effectively stand up for all its constituents without sounding like you are excusing them for failing to do so?
It’s not easy to make that point. And in Dean’s case he deserves criticism. But I don’t think any offense was intended. And in my book, intent is always the most important factor when it comes to taking offense.
I do not believe that I am being unfair to Floridagal. I’m upset that she’s criticizing something she doesn’t seem to understand, but I’m not being out of line about it or anything. I’ve been pretty civil.
Gay people’s rights are chronically undervalued and chronically swept aside. I believe that it is appropriate for us to be outraged about this. Sometimes the only appropriate response to something is righteous outrage, and I believe that inequality is one of those things. I also believe that Democrats will probably continue to believe that representing gay people properly is a liability, but that they’ll continue to expect our money, time, work, and votes, and I think it is grossly unfair to expect gay people to tone down our outrage about that.
Nonetheless, I always consider intent, and that is a large part of why I’m still even remotely civil right now. If I weren’t considering intent, my posts would be packed to the brim with profanity and nothing more. 🙂 I am doing the best I can, and certainly not being any less civil than typical disagreement standards on your blog. Please trust and appreciate that I’m trying as hard as I can to speak frankly and honestly about my own political positions, just as I assume is also true for Floridagal. I deserve to be read just as charitably as she does.
Oh, I’m not reprimanding you at all. Your not violating any rules. Not at all.
I’m just chiming in to offer my opinion.
Your post made an essential point and made it in a way that I bet floridagal will find compelling.
That is the value of civil debate.
My only point was that it is easy to be unintentionally dismissive, not that part of her diary wasn’t dismissive.
In other words, your post was great because it pointed out how she was being dismissive. But, the point of her diary still stands. Howard Dean may be doing less than he can do for the LGBT community, but the Democratic Party cannot do all that should right now for the community.
Part of that is just a function of the GOP being in power and controlling the legislation that comes before various legislative bodies. They keep putting the Dems on defense, not only over gay rights, but the whole spectrum of issues.
Just to give an example: Lieberman rarely pissed us off when we were in the majority. Even when we just had the Presidency he wasn’t that annoying. Most people welcomed him as a VEEP candidate. So, what changed? What changed was the type of judges being appointed, the type of bills being pushed, etc.
A lot of Democrats are annoying us because they are put in tough spots on votes and they cave. But politicians are not stupid. They don’t cave unless they think it benefits them. Sometimes they are flat wrong about what benefits them. But, if they are wrong too often they get voted out.
So, getting power back will do more than some people think. The DINOS will begin voting to their left more often, rather than voting to their right.
Okay, I’m rambling.
My only point was that it is easy to be unintentionally dismissive
FYI you don’t have to tell minorities this. Believe me, we know. 🙂 We are pissed about it.
Democratic Party cannot do all that should right now for the community.
We disagree on this point, and no amount of arguing will likely change either of our minds about it, so I will not start.
Similarly, we disagree with which strategy it’s best to move forward, and with the precise pressures that are most useful in shifting votes of those elected to the left. But even though we disagree strongly about these particular things, I still see you as a worthwhile ally in various regards. We can vote together when we share a view, and we can work together when we share a strategy. And I am deeply grateful, on a daily basis, for all the work you do with this blog.
I am all about building coalitions. That’s why I’m here. That’s why I try to keep myself civil no matter how strongly I disagree with someone, or no matter how much of a punch in the gut it is to me that the ongoing oppression of gay people is really not even on someone’s radar. I want oxygen and they think I want a beach towel. It’s hard not to freak out, but I resist the temptation. I walk away from the keyboard a lot.
But if any bridges are going to get built then people need to understand that, for the most part, gay folks aren’t going to be led around like obedient dogs anymore. We have a will of our own, and we’ve recently discovered that we have a lot of political energy, millions of votes, and billions of spendable dollars. We’re in the process of figuring out what we want to do with that power.
Thanks for the feedback and the positive things you said, I appreciate that very much.
I know I’m late to the discussion but there’s one tidbit that I couldn’t let go w/o comment:
Lieberman rarely pissed us off when we were in the majority. Even when we just had the Presidency he wasn’t that annoying. Most people welcomed him as a VEEP candidate.
OMG, NOTHING could be further from the truth! He’s seen as a sanctimonious press whore among many of his colleagues and/or staff of his colleagues. The groups were not happy. Folks were PISSED!! Just disgusted. And probably none more than John Kerry, who was on the short list. :<)
But because “Holy Joe” lectured Clinton about sex, some Beltway big wigs thought
Why yes! He should be your VP candidate!
I still remember the column in Roll Call about how great Lieberman would be (I forget the columnist–I think it was Kondracke). And the Gore folks drank the Kool-Aid, thinking that this pick would help put distance b/w Clinton and him and give him a boost.
It worked among the political elite. He was the quite the media darling b/c the press just HATED Gore. And Lieberman was the Beltway politico darling too. Sickeningly so.
But among people in the party to do the real work? Hell no. My goodness, I still remember the campaign dispatching Rep. Eleanor Holmes Norton and fmr Labor Secy. Alexis Herman to calm down Black folks because of Lieberman’s attack on affirmative action (Lieberman did some civil rights work when he was a younger) because they knew folks weren’t that enamored of him. Attacking Clinton while he was down didn’t help either (yeah, everyone knew it was immoral, but that’s not why they impeached him–dummy). And that’s just one example.
Anyway, to a gander at this, this, this and esp. this one which has this line:
Now this is from a story in 2000. Clearly, the Kerry-McCain thing has been a political wet dream for longer than I remembered. Sheesh.
Anyway, there were many an arm that had to be twisted before everyone could smile on cue.
Sorry to ramble on and on. Flashbacks here. Painful flashbacks. But I couldn’t let it go–he was a Beltway creation–nothing more.
Which, of course, explains his flame-out in 2004, “Joementum” notwithstanding–and why he didn’t seem to be able to grasp the reality that he’d never get the nomination.
accidentally dismissive
There can be no such thing as being “accidentally dismissive,” it’s the result of a mindset, one that may not be apparent even to the person who holds it. In that sense, it may not be the fault of the person holding that mindset, but it is not an “accident”–it’s a mindset that’s been deliberately implanted in people’s heads. I guess I’d say that mindset is the “box” I’d hope to get people thinking outside of.
Denying that it is there is not going to get rid of it. And pointing it out when we see it need not be seen as an attack
The whole post, imo, is full of that mindset–and a lot of people are responding to it, so it’s not just me being my “radical” nasty, down with the white people self–as so many people (mostly sloppy readers) like to see me .
All I’m trying to say is: look at the underlying assumptions reflected in your language. Whether or not that was the writer’s intent and reflective of her thoughts–those assumptions are clearly reflected in the language.
Respectfully, you just made a very sloppy argument and you blame sloppy readers for not getting your point.
What was my point?
My point was that… if I want to make an argument in favor or party unity I will find myself in the position of apologizing for the shortcomings of the party. And in the process of doing that, I may not give enough emphasis on any of a number of shortcomings that I am apologizing for.
I may give a good explanation for why it is not worth leaving the party over the Atito vote, or the bankruptcy bill, or Bob Casey, but not give enough attention to the LGBT community, or some other hot button issue that is motivating people to opt out of the party.
Now, some people might say that anyone who argues for party unity is being dismissive almost be definition. I reject that. I think an argument can be made for party unity that admits the party is dismissive on important issues, but that the alternatives are worse.
As for accidental dismissiveness, of course it exists. Are you saying that intent has no role in human behavior? If I fail to say hello to someone I recognize it may be because I want to snub them. It may be because I am a self-absorbed asshole, or it may be because I am deep in thought. Was I dismissive on purpose or was I dismissive by accident.
If it was because I was daydreaming, then it matters not that I have a mindset for daydreaming. I was not intentionally dismissive.
I really don’t. I just reread my op and I don’t see it.
I don’t get all the issues I want as a woman. Our abortion and contraception rights are being compromised as we speak.
But I don’t see the benefit of splitting up because of all our issues.
The gay community will not get all they want, neither will women. So am I being dismissive of women?
And what do we do about it?
It ain’t worth it to dialogue. The ones who might agree never want to share the bruises, and it hurts too damn much to try much anymore.
I was trying to defend you, but since you ask:
You defended Howard Dean’s record on gay rights, and you provided some reasons to back up your defense.
But you also suggested or implied that he is doing all he can and that the criticism of him was unwarranted. Now, those are two different things.
And it is this second part that caused offense.
If someone tells you are being dismissive, it’s usually true. I defended you because I agree with your overall point and I know that being dismissive was the opposite of your intention.
There seems to be a divide on this topic. Several of our
DFA group here are of this community, very active in politics. They are our
friends, and we have a mutual respect for each other.
Perhaps it is where we live, the conservative nature of the area, I am not sure of that, but they are
not upset with Dean’s effort to reorganize. They are giving it time. I
called two of them today, as I was so alarmed at how people took my post. I
flat out asked them to critique what I wrote. I read it to them. They were
not offended. Maybe it is because they know me. I don’t know. Maybe they know how hard I work here.
I also told them to go to read this at the DNC site, and they were not aware
all of this was going on. They are not passing judgment. Giving it time.
Here is what is up at the site now.
http://www.democrats.org/a/2006/02/a_year_of_progr.php
I will be very careful not to write on this topic anymore. I know it was just discussed at our last DFA meeting, and I had the idea that there were varying views about what Dean did. I just thought I had enough credibility here that people would understand what I meant. I guess I don’t. I also wrote about labor unions, about retirees, it was pretty general. In fact I don’t think any of us have any rights left anymore.
For myself, I am not fond either of the way the Democrats have dismissed womens’ rights. I have two choices. I can work to get people in office who will defend us or I can not. I can do it through building the state and precinct level parties through the DNC, or I can not support it. If I don’t help build a strong party then we won’t take congress back. It may already be too late.
that although I understand and value your views on things, they are very much not my views. That’s okay. We all do things as we feel we best can to help.
But. . .anyone who thinks Diebold and the Republican held election supervisors are going to allow the dems to take back the house and the senate are really deluding themselves. The stolen elections have not been addressed and they will not be addressed and although the votes will seem breathtakingly close. . .the repugs are not going to give up their surefire way of winning elections.
It is a fact we better all face, because NOTHING has been done to change things. Lip-service from a few, but nothing is being done to stop it. And the “please don’t talk that conspiracy stuff” democrats are not doing anything either.
I agree with your concerns Shirl.
But…
It’s not true that nothing has been done about the voting machines. It depends on where you live.
And let’s take a concrete example.
Since so much talk is going on in relation to the Casey vs. Santorum race, let’s use that.
The polls show that Casey is up by 16 points. If the polls show that on election day, there is nothing a computer hacker can do. I’ve seen boxing matches that were clearly fixed. The crowd is outraged and it is obvious that the judges were paid off.
Well, in an election where the polls are close you can steal an election and come up with some explanation for why the polls were off. But if the polls show Democrats poised for a landslide and it doesn’t happen we will know it.
I’m afraid that we will lose seats that we should win, and even more that someone might do something truly stupid and obvious that will cause chaos.
But we can’t just assume that elections are hopeless.
The polls didn’t match up last time and we had just gobs of “experts” tell us why that was and that it had nothing to do with machines being pre-programmed to take votes from one candidate and give them to another. There also seem to be some very strange poll results that will just match up with whomever is paying for the polls.
Until we say NO to all Diebold machines and any like them, we will never know, will we.
I am voting by absentee from now on, but the republican supervised election boards are still the ones that count the votes, or don’t count the votes as they see fit, and unless there is a very close race that requires a recount, there will be no recounts. So I am not so sure that my absentee ballot will be counted either.
Someone has got to step up and give us some very strong evidence that our votes will be counted and counted correctly. I haven’t seen it yet. I hope I see it before November. I’m not counting on it.
I agree completely.
Why the silence re: disability rights when they have been ignored for so long?
Whether I like it or not. My rights as a retiree are being negotiated away so fast I am trembling also.
I stand by what I said, I have nothing to apologize for. I did not dismiss anyone at all.
So then you can imagine how much fun it is to be a gay, female retiree. And I can well imagine how much fun it is for Black/Asian/Native American/Latina/Jewish female, gay retirees.
I hurt just as much inside when the paramedics were reviving my husband recently. I don’t have be all those things to matter, to be worthy.
He was terrified when the paramedics had to revive me last year. We were both unresponsive, both nearly dead at different times.
I am white, yes. No, I am not poor. But I am not rich nor am I privileged. I have never been privileged. I have no ivory tower.
You have no more right to make me sound that way than I do to make others sound that way. I did not do that.
I am very alarmed to see what people here think of some who are really working to change things.
If you are white and not poor, you have always been privileged. So have I. We are not as privileged as straight, rich, white men, but we are a hell of a lot more privileged than the poor, than people of colour, than the handicapped, and all the folkes who grew up gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered.
I think you STILL don’t get it, that whatever fears and indignities you suffer, other people suffer as well, but with a big helping of racism, homophobia, or physical restrictions on top of it.
Imagine the very real things you’ve suffered, but add to each situation not having any money, being beaten up for being different, and fighting for access to the services you take for granted.
Please do me a favor and check out some previous posts of mine here. I am tired of defending myself against all these nebulous charges of homophobia, racism, and elitism.
I think perhaps some need to examine their own hearts and souls as well.
I did not, and do not accuse you of homophobia, racism, and elitism. I do not think for a moment that you are any of those things.
I was pointing out the relative nature of privilege.
I was suggesting that there are degrees of suffering.
You wrote a diary telling us we are wrong to leave the Democratic Party.
Some people agreed with you and others think you are wrong to think we’re wrong. Some of us think you’re telling us we’re wrong because you don’t understand how we feel.
Let’s keep talking about it, and maybe we’ll understand each other better.
We were both unresponsive, both nearly dead at different times.
So was I, more than once. And had a few other close calls, my recent car accident and the pneumonia that I have still not completely recovered from. Possibly going on my 3rd relapse.
And you have health insurance. I’ve had to skip meals in order to pay for the gas to go to my doctor who has been giving me samples. Maybe I should just do my patriotic duty and drop dead to balance the federal budget, as no one is willing to specifically discuss the subject of disability rights!
Did you honestly expect those who have been thru more than you to agree with you? Spare me!
OK, SusanW has already begun pointing out the notion of ‘degrees of privilege’…I’m going to try and flesh that out , with a tie-in to a couple of other points (i.e., the notion of “accidental” dismissiveness–actually, in keeping with my ‘stickler for precise language’-tick, I’m going to call that ‘un*intent*ional’ dismissiveness [very different thing from ‘accidental’] , and the idea of some people’s concerns ‘being off the radar’ from others).
Pls understand that the point is not to single you out as being intentionally homophobic, racist or anything else, but to try and nail down what I think has gotten some danders up here.
First of all:
If you have white skin, you are privileged by default.
If you are heterosexual, you areprivileged by default.
If you are able-bodied (i.e. without physical ‘disability’), you are privileged by default.
Those ‘privileges’–whiteness, heterosexuality, able-bodied-ness–derive from a mindset that has established whiteness, heterosexuality and able-bodiedness as the norm. Most people in possession of those three elements of ‘normality’ are completely unaware of the privileges afforded them by that ‘normalcy’. And for that reason, they find it hard to so much as imagine what a world would be like in which they weren’t afforded those privileges.
Just a couple off-the-top-of-my-head examples: do you ever get the feeling store clerks look at you as if you were a potential shoplifter just because you are white?
Would you ever feel like it was improper for you to hold your husband’s hand in public?
Do you think anyone would stare at you just for walking across the street?
We take these markers of normalcy (whiteness, heterosexuality, able-bodiedness) so much for granted that the concerns of others who don’t share those privileges are simply off the radar for us. And because they are off the radar, it is easy to unintentionally offend someone or appear to be dismissive of them. But the fact that these things are off the radar is NOT AN ACCIDENT. They are central components of a mindset that trains us to think in these terms from birth onward in this society.
Unless we have been diligently at work on the project of dismantling them, we all have them. No one grows up in this society without those built-in prejudices: even parents who struggle to keep them at bay in their own children cannot keep the societal influence from poisoning their children with these prejudices. In that sense, they are not “accidental”–because they are elements of a pre-programmed socialization project. Unintentional indeed they may be and most of the time, they are.
I, for example, am in posession of ‘white skin privilege’ even though my cultural/community identification is primarily with African Americans, and my geneaological heritage is Native American on one side, Jewish on the other–as my friends and relatives on the Rez say to me: the genes have been unkind, meaning white skin privilege is not a burden anyone should have to bear!
Being acutely aware of that white-skinned, heterosexual, able-bodied privilege helps to prevent me from engaging in “unintentional dismissiveness” some of the time, certainly not all the time. As with any habit of personal change, it is a process. Considering how deeply rooted these particular forms of default privilege are ingrained in our society and the fabric of our thought, I’d say it’s a lifelong process.
In my attempt to overcome the burdens of white skin/heterosexual/able-bodied privilege, I have taken as my motto: Any time a member of the human family calls me out on one of these issues and points out that there is an element of racial/heterosexual/or able-bodied dismissiveness in my words or my actions, I take their words to heart. My intent is irrelevant. The fact that “I didn’t mean it that way” is my business, not theirs. My lack of intent to do harm does not mitigate the harm I have done.
My rule of thumb: if a person of color says it’s offensive, then it’s offensive and my job is to accept that, whether I understand or not, whether I intended or not, whether I agree or disagree.
Same with gay people, same with people with disabilities.
It is only by listening to those who do not share the privileges we have been given by default that we can avoid engaging in “unintentional dismissiveness”.
And if we listen for long enough, eventually ‘their’ concerns and ‘their’ issues become components of our ‘radar’–their issues and concerns become our issues and concerns.
That won’t ever happen as long as we continue to dismiss these objections by saying, “I didn’t mean it” or “it was not my intent.”
Best we can do is to say, You know, I’m sorry, I just never even thought of it that way. It never occurred to me. I’m sorry. I’ll try to remember that next time.
One of the worst things we can do is to say “you’re being oversensitive. You’re exaggerating. Get over it.” (I don’t see that you’ve done that, “careful” readers familiar with my history will know exactly what I’m referring to here).
Unfortunately, that is all too often what happens. At that point, the dismissiveness can no longer be called “unintentional”–at that point it is clearly intentional.
This post was fucking awesome. Thank you.
Thanks Indy! I figure if I keep throwing that sloppy argument;-) out there in different series of words strung together, one time or another it might come out “clean”–here’s hoping that was one of those rare times.
I tried. 😉
I agree with everything you are saying except the part about it being your problem and not theirs.
Giving unintentional offense is always the problem of the person who is offended.
They can choose to create a problem for the offender. But it is their choice.
And to be clear, I agree with you that if someone tell you that you have offended them you should take their word for it and listen. But they are still wrong to be offended if that was not your intent.
That is why people say to toughen up and get over it. There are so many things in the world to be offended about. No one should waste time taking offense where no offense was intended.
Rather they should seek peace in their own mind.
I’d be willing to concede on that point. With one reservation.
The problem with this is that sexuality, race/ethnicity, and physical disability are such huge, largely inalterable “markers” of identity, rooted in the very essence of being on the one hand and that the degree of “unintentional dismissiveness” that non-privileged members of those three categories of “normalcy” experience is pretty much non-stop.
[And to that I would add, RELIGION, whereby if you are Christian or Jewish, just about anywhere in the world, except perhaps in Muslim society), you are privileged by default.]
When speaking of “degree” I think in terms of frequency and all-pervasiveness, not severity: indeed it’s true–we no longer have to listen to the constant barrage of jackpinesavage nigger gimp kike (tho raghead does seem to have retained some of its allure), go to the back of the goddamn bus, don’t ask don’t tell and go play in the street! 😉
But the degree of “untintentional dismissiveness” that members of these ‘different from the norm’-groups (I won’t call them ‘minorities,’ b/c taken together as a collective ‘we’ they likely form a majority, or at least close) are subjected to at present constitutes pretty much constant bombardment.
It is constant, Boo, so in order to not “waste time” being offended, you are expected to waste nearly 100% of your time pretending you just didn’t hear this statement or that, that you just didn’t see this stare or that, that you didn’t just see that woman cross the street as soon as she saw ya comin’!
It takes a lot of energy to constantly deny what you see.
The pervasiveness of these ‘unintentional dismissals’ must be reduced. Sure, I could look the other way and not be offended every once in a while. But for me (and for most people in any one of these circumstances), as a hyper-hyphenated-norm breaker (German-Jewish-Native-American-Female-African-Drummer-from-the-Welfare-Line-to -the-Ivory-Tower-Dissident and Militant Smoker), the unintended assaults on one, two or three of these ‘categories of difference’ are pretty much rapid-fire, non-stop 24/7. Every day, I get to pick and choose which of the 10,000 unintentional insults I shall ignore and which I shall allow to offend me.
To live a life free of unintentional insult, I would have to live in utter la-la land, denying reality much in the same way the rethugs do.
So the point is to eliminate at least some of these unintentional insults. If the dismissiveness is “unintentional,” then the person who is committing it cannot see it. The only way then to even identify it (and you cannot eliminate it without identifying it) is to allow the people who are affected by it to point it out.
This is the radar part.
It’s not so much that I think it’s the “unintentional offender’s” job or responsibility to see it as his/her problem, but I think the unintentional offender is the only one who can really do something to eliminate (or at the very least diminish) the problem . ‘Dealing with the problem’ at its root, not in its symptoms, cannot be the job of the person potentially offended by it.
Little hard to be at peace when you’re being followed around a Wal-Mart store if you have to wear a hat that says “I am not a shoplifter.”
Little hard to be at peace when you’re being followed around a Wal-Mart store even though you are wearing a hat that says “I am not a shoplifter.” 😉
I am not disagreeing with you I am quibbling.
I live in a probably 60% black neighborhood. It’s all row houses. There is a large black gang in the neighborhood. I am even on somewhat friendly terms with their leader, who has over 3 million dollars to his name. His crew is known to shoot people and they are not all that interested in mugging people or harassing people. They are businessmen.
However, Ifind it prudent to avoid large clusters of these men, especially late at night when they may be wasted on something or other.
This involves judicious use of the three-block stare. You must always have situational awareness of what is going on at least two blocks ahead of you. And crossing the street is the only tool available to a prudent person.
Now, I don’t think avoiding gaggles of drunk gang members bearing firearms can be considered prejudice, and pretty much everyone of all races and genders uses the same tactics that I do. Another word for it is common sense.
It’s quite possible that I sometimes mistake a gang of people 2-3 blocks away for gang members when they are, in fact, regular kids shooting the shit. And you can see where I am going with this: people do not make prejudgments based on nothing but ignorance or bigotry.
And the more information you have the fewer mistakes you will make. Once you know the neighborhood you can make much more precise judgments about who represents a danger and who does not.
However, it would be unfair to be critical of person who has just moved into the neighborhood because their prejudgments are overly sweeping.
What bothers me are people that see a slight in every glance, or turn of phrase, or lack of an invitation, or professional disappointment. I think there is an actual psychological term for this mindset (at least when it becomes a problem and requires treatment). But it is a very annoying trait.
I’m the last person to deny the many slights that people must endure in this world, or to deny your basic point. But if you are getting 10,000 slights a day, you need to see a doctor.
wtf, who’s counting? 😉
FYI: I live in a 90%-99% black neighborhood–Barack Obama’s neighborhood, Shani Davis’s, Rainbow Push (and I believe, also Farrakhan).
To the north, black and thinning, i.e. gentrifying, where most people are not likely to be gang members, in fact, more likely to be doctors, and houses go anywhere from 250K to many millions.
Here, money is not so much of a problem. Not being taken for a shoplifter even though your salary and standard of living is so far beyond the comprehension of the wal-mart clerk keeping an eye on you, or the myriad sleights directed at you at any business meeting, any faculty meeting, whatever, wherever.
To my immediate south, also 99% black, with varying degrees of gang activity (in direct correlation to degree of poverty).
In this southern side where the population is defacto +/- 99% , the unintentional insult of exercising due caution by avoiding large groups of potential gang members is not likely to occur because everyone is black, it is a place ‘where white men fear to tread’ (apologies to Russell Means).
So, here, money is more the problem than racial offense, intended or otherwise because the population is so overwhelmingly African American.
Sheesh, Booman, hate to come back to this so late in the game, but I got to thinking about this comment today and started to wonder whether you were right, maybe I should see a doctor!
But I was browsing around the bookstore and stumbled on this book by Randall Robertson, called ” Quitting America”. Robertson is the guy who created such a stink in the red zone of the blogosphere with his erroneous claims of cannibalism in New Orleans after Katrina at the Huffington Post last fall. Unfortunately, people didn’t bother to pay much mind to the rest of what he had to say because he started off with that sloppy argument.
Robertson is the founder of Transafrica who finally found a “cure” for his “problem” with what he calls “insults … without conscious intent”–basically the same as what we’ve been calling “unintentional”–he “quits America” and discusses this in an Amy Goodman interview from 2004 here.
Unfortunately, quitting America is not really a treatment option for me with these 10,000 daily assaults on my sensibilities since, as you know, I’ve been there and done that with the “love it or leave it stuff”.
But I thought it was encouraging to know that I’m not the only one who suffers from this condition for which you suggest I see a dictor, and I thought I’d share a couple of quotes from the first chapter of “Quitting America”.
What a relief to know I’m in such good company with my condition and my problem. I hope if I ever get a chance to meet him he might be able to come up with some treatment options here in the US. If you think about it though, if all of us who suffer from this condition would just be sensible and “quit America” like Robertson (who apparently has since found great inner peace outside this country), well, heck that would solve the problem, too, wouldn’t it: all those unintended offenses would go completely unnoticed and no one would ever be hurt by them again.
Here’s what he had to say about the problem of unintentional insults:
So, are you suggesting that someone who is so sensitive to unintentional insults that he has to leave the country is a well adjusted and happy individual in no need of a psychiatrist?
It seems like that is what you are saying.
But I can’t think of a better example of someone who is neurotic and intensly unpleasant to be around.
He makes a valuable point and a point that needs to be reiterated often. But he still needs a chill pill.
Well you be sure to mention the part about Robertson needing a shrink and a chill pill on your first interview with Amy Goodman, Boo, or in your first post on Huff Post.
Reading his bio, I dunno, doesn’t sound like I’d find him all that unpleasant to be around. But, hey, if you’ve got a recommendation for a good shrink, maybe you should pop it off in an email to him. His address is posted on his site
A little late this, but being Jewish brings privilege? Perhaps you don’t get out much any more. I find that even with our increasingly diverse society, prejudice is now more overt than ever before, including that against Jews. (perhaps this further encroachment on the white ideal is the reason) Given this country’s parallels to Nazi Germany, the newfound fashion for obvious prejudice makes me especially sensitive to the dangerous utterances of others.
I would hope that the cause of unintended offense also has merit.
I have little patience with repeated unintended offense born of entitlement’s Big Blinders of Convenient Cluelessness.
I used to work with a man who made frequent humourous references to watermelon and fra-a-a-a-h’d chicken. When I suggested that his comments were offensive and racist, he just couldn’t understand, because he didn’t mean anything bad by it, and besides, he wouldn’t mind if black people made fun of HIS food.
This is very different from making one’s point poorly and inadvertantly hurting someone’s feelings.
Thank you, stark, for translating my shorthand. It was lazy of me, but I’ve been hammering on this for 30 years, and don’t always have the stamina to do it one more time.
And of course, I always learn from you’re posts, and appriciate the insight you bring to any discussion.
“don’t always have the stamina to do it one more time. “
Get a script, dammit! 😉
Thanks for the kind words and rest assured the admiration is mutual.
Of course you are equally worthy, and my remark was not intended to insinuate differently.
WE ALL ARE EQUALLY WORTHY. That is the point. It is just that after 30, 40 or 50+ years of puting up with being on the back burner, with being reminded constantly that you are not an equal citizen of this country, that you do not deserve what the preveleged deserve, that your concerns are not worthy of consideration. . .some of us have run out of patience.
I have empathy and understanding for your difficulties. I wish that you didn’t have to have them. You deserve better. All of us deserve better.
Frankly, I never imagined that I would have to spend an entire lifetime FIGHTING everyday for the same equality that exists for the preveleged. And my fights and struggles have not been nearly as difficult as many. I am not a person of an unacceptable skin tone. I have not really ever been poor, although there have been times that there was nothing to eat and nowhere to go. But it was not my everyday experience. I am not nor have I been physically or mentally disabled
I just find it totally unacceptable that there is a concept held that EVERYONE does not deserve the same equality, regardless. And that is the concept that the Power Brokers at the top of the Democratic Party want us to swallow. Just wait, we will get around to you someday. Right now we have to act like republicans, but we won’t vote that way once we get elected. . .really? Their actions speak louder than their words. I wish someone could explain to me what the dems in office right now have to lose by standing up for what they say they believe in? If they won’t alter the vote outcome anyway, what do they lose by having integrity? If nothing, then I can only surmise that they ARE voting their conscience.
I do not now nor have I ever thought that you were one of those people that does find it alright. I merely have a different take on how and what I wish to do to overcome it. I honor your choice.
Sounds like what you’re saying, Shirl, is that when one person’s rights are violated/infringed upon, etc.. then everyone’s are at risk.
It’s the “first they came for the Jews”-phenomenon.
That is exactly what I am saying, Stark. Anything that diminishes my brother, diminishes me. Anything that disenfranchises me, does the same to my sister. I guess I’m just thick headed or care “too much,” but I just never have been able to figure out why we wouldn’t want everyone to be lifted up to eye level. It seems a no brainer to me. what enhances one, enhances all.
I was just skimming through and wanted to tell you that your comment lifted my spirit.
Thanks.
As far as I’m concerned, no one’s rights are negotiable. I understand that this is not a very popular position, however, I am unwilling to surrender it. Everyone’s equal rights are fundamental, required, necessary, non-negotiable, un-tradable, period. And I’ll go to my grave fighting for that, even if I have to do it alone.
You won’t be alone, Indy. I’ll be right there by your side for as long as I draw breath on this planet. No ones rights are negotiable, not now, not ever!
All moral credibility is lost when one single person’s civil rights are reduced to a bargaining chip. When the party turns its back on GLBT, it turns its back on everyone who believes in social justice.
Having to pay a higher price and being able to afford to do so is not being hurt. Being hurt is going without.
If I have not had to go without, then I am less respected when I speak of all of us working together?
I called my friends back again just now because this thread has been so very painful. They are in our DFA group here and part of the gay community. They are talking me through the pain we share as friends.
They are understanding what I am saying.
I will never again post on anything about any other community than my own. I will let all of you stand up for yourselves, instead of offering to stand with you as Democrats.
Is that what is being said to me? Is that what is meant?
I am sorry that you are so hurt right now, but I also think you are taking a lot of wrong messages from this thread. I think you’re reading personal insults where people are making passionate disagreements and merely using personal examples. I am not insulting you, and I am reasonably sure that most of the rest of the folks in this thread aren’t insulting you either.
Perhaps you should step back, calm down, rest with the support of your friends, and then re-read the thread later and try to understand what people are actually saying to you. You are very clearly not getting what many of us are saying — and I do not say this to insult you! I say it because I think it is true, and because I think coming to a mutual understanding is critically important in political conversations.
I so desperately do not want you to walk away from this under the totally wrong impression that you were attacked for being white, or some such similar thing that is not happening here.
My friends here are reading it, and since they know me…they are having trouble getting it as well.
I feel today that I am as truly despised by many groups in our own party as I was that day I was called unpatriotic by my church over the Iraq war.
I feel just as disparaged as I did the day my uncle and I split for 3 years over his belief in Rush Limbaugh. The day my son told me not to send him stuff from “liberal” sites. The site was the New York Times. They both are college educated. They should know better.
Something is very wrong with this, and no, I don’t get it.
Floridagal, please understand that I am not angry at you. I am angry at a lot of things, but not at you. I am angry, even, at the strategy you endorse and the way you approached it — but I am not angry at you, and that makes a difference, right?
I think there’s been a lot of misunderstanding going on in here, and I really don’t want it to get any worse. I think the left, in general, needs to mend fences and build bridges. That’s what I want, bottom line, so we can make things better for all of us.
This argument over strategy isn’t going to go away. Things are too desperate. Things are too bad. Too close to the edge of the cliff. We all know it. We’re all on edge.
But meantime, let’s not forget that even where we disagree vehemently, we’re still allies, at least of a sort. Look, just because I think the strategy you recommend is offensive doesn’t mean that I think you’re offensive. And I think I can safely assume that just because you recommend a strategy that I think is horrible for gays doesn’t mean that you don’t care about gays. I believe you when you say that you care. I believe that you mean it. I believe that you care. Please believe me when I say that I care about you, too.
For my part, I’m going to drop out of this conversation now because I think it’s kinda spun out of where it could have been useful, and I don’t want to contribute to ratcheting it up any further and certainly not to making you feel any worse. I don’t think that’s good for anyone. But like I said, these conversations about strategy aren’t going anywhere any time soon, so I hope that we can continue this particular conversation in a more productive and less painful way for everyone involved in the very near future.
My very best peaceful wishes to you, Floridagal.
I feel today that I am as truly despised by many groups in our own party as I was that day I was called unpatriotic by my church over the Iraq war.
This describes how I feel when I’m accused of wanting to destroy the Democrat Party so I can relate to what you’re going through. I’m sorry you’re down about this but don’t let it keep you down.
If I have not had to go without, then I am less respected when I speak of all of us working together?
You didn’t speak of all working together, you demanded so that you/your family would benefit. That is what is not respected. Think the thing is that you cannot relate to those who have had to go without and are tired of it.
I will let all of you stand up for yourselves
Wasn’t aware that I needed your permission to take a stand for what is most important to me.
instead of offering to stand with you as Democrats.
And you didn’t offer anything. You insulted those who disagreed with you!
Did you realize that the majority of the sentences that you used began with/contained the following words/phrases: we, our, I, I, my family, our kids, I, I?
What about others who are not as fortunate as you?
I won’t post anything about myself again. I won’t post anything about groups and communities to which I don’t belong either.
That leaves nothing to post.
Try posting about others less fortuante than you and their needs that are not being met.
fyi
Someday.
I read every one in this diary. All that I am saying is think about what others have been through. (The link above goes to the BIA website.) And I did check out the link you provided to DFA. And, here’s another one re: Medicare D diaries that I have been writing.
Click my name for my other diaries here. If there is a link at DFA, I did not post it. If someone posted it at DFA it was not me.
I did a lot of research on Medicare also. I was quite activist on it as well. I do a lot of things, so does my hubby. So do my friends here.
I have learned a valuable lesson here today. I will remember it. Read my other diaries here so you can see I am no snob. I post at Kos as well, and I post at HEP.
I am not sorry I posted this. I learned a lot today.
I know you post at dkos. Remember reading a lot of your stuff. And that is the reason why I am so shocked at this diary and your response to the comments to it. What did you expect, that people would say thanks for recognizing the error of our ways? Come on!
You are capable of much better, at least you were in the past. It seems like you are fully realizing the impact of bushco and are freaking out because the effects will harm you when others have been dealing w/the effects of bushco for years!
(BTW, I also xpost dkos and mlw.)
I hope you will continue to post about anything you want. We are RESPONDING to your challenge. You said:
“To those of you who are so willing to destroy the party we have now instead of getting involved and working for change….just remember some things…”
We have been trying to explain WHY we believe the Democratic Party has been singularly unresponsive to our years of involvement and work. We see the leadership running away from the things that we think make a good party.
If you can live with the party’s backpeddling on civil rights and social justice, or if you believe that you can make them change, more power to you, but, please, don’t ascribe our disagreement with your view of the party to ignoble motives. Nobody here thinks you are a bad person. Nobody here thinks you shouldn’t express your opinion. Some of us just think that your diary accusing us of being “willing to destroy” the party demanded we justify our positions; we have done so, but you don’t seem to want to listen to our answers. Our opinions are not an attack on you. They are our opinions. I’m sure you didn’t expect universal approval for a diary that began with such an inflammatory statement.
You stirred things up and got people talking about serious issues. I hope you do it again.
We have been trying to explain WHY we believe the Democratic Party has been singularly unresponsive to our years of involvement and work. We see the leadership running away from the things that we think make a good party.
And that is why I posted links to the Brain Injury Association, and the Medicare D diaries! Two other serious issues that need more attention than they are getting.
told that because I did not have to do without that I was not worth as much. No one knows what another’s life is like, it works both ways.
Yes, people are trying to destroy the Democratic Party. If you don’t support it it will die, just like anything else that is not nourished and cared for.
It most certainly did turn into accusations that I don’t understand or care for blacks or gays or poor. That is so unreal I can not wrap my head around it.
Who told you that because you did not have to do without, you were not worth as much ? I don’t see that here, and I have read it all.
What I did see is people who are having to do without right now who are more angry at the Democratic leadership than you are. You aren’t required to be as angry as we are, and we can’t be expected to share your happier assessment.
I understand that you think my refusing to support the Democratic party will destroy it. I don’t believe that is true. I think that my withdrawl of support might change the party into something I can support again. If not, I will support progressive causes I believe in another way.
I can hear that this has been very hurtful for you. Emotions are running high, and I think many formerly loyal Democrats feel that we’ve been betrayed again; that makes calls for more continued loyalty sound like the same old con job we’ve heard before.
If our anger at the Democratic leadership has spilled over onto you, I’m sorry. You are not the enemy, and I hope we can all respect each other’s continued efforts to make American a better country, whether we do it thru contributions to a political party or not.
If I have personally offended you, I apologise for expressing myself clumsily, or failing in understanding. I do not agree with you, but I don’t want to hurt you, either.
I did NOT say that!
What I did say was
And I also said in response to your comments (which are in italics):
If I have not had to go without, then I am less respected when I speak of all of us working together?
I will let all of you stand up for yourselves
instead of offering to stand with you as Democrats.
Yeah, you’re right–you don’t know what my life is like as a traumatic brain injury survivor. You have absolutely no way of knowing the expereince of what I live with on a daily basis, as a result of the traumatic brain injury. You don’t know what traumatic brain injury rehab is like–I HAD TO LEARN HOW TO LEARN (AND LEARN HOW TO REMEMBER MORE THAN I COULD) AGAIN. I HAD TO LEARN HOW TO TALK AGAIN WITHOUT STUTTERRING. AND I AM STILL NOT THE SAME PERSON THAT I WAS BEFORE AND NEVER WILL BE.
And you are complaining because people disagree with you?
What in the hell is the matter with you?
Dont take this post the wrong way, but I am actually not suprised at the latest turn of events re: equality. People with disabilities have repeatedly been told to “wait” and their concerns will be addressed at “a later time.” And that of course has never happenned. (Hell, if Medicare D didn’t screw over so many people, you would not have heard a word about the impact of policy on people with disabilities.)
Basically, being told to “wait” and accepting that as an acceptable compromise is bullshit–because it never has happenned and it never will. More and more tax cuts will be handed out like candy and the rights of others will continue to be abused.
And, the mantra will then be “wait” the dems don’t have whatever excuse they can think of to deny people their rights. Guess what I am saying is that the dems appear to want to keep groups of people out of any policies that will directly effect them.
Street Kid, I can’t tell if your post was in response to me or not, since the thread is starting to stretch and I have trouble distinguishing when it does that (even when I fold it up I can’t really tell).
But in case you were posting to me, then no, I am not surprised by it either. Angry, but not surprised. I’m also disabled, and I really appreciate all your recent hard work blogging about Medicare.
Yeah it was. So I take it from your answer that you know exactly what I am talking about. And thanks for the comliment re: Medicare D.
As long as the “black community” is seen as having its own “issues” apart from the “us” of (presumably white?) communities, this option will indeed be the only way for “those people” to have “their” issues addressed.
When “their” issues become “your” issues, a major step will have been made. Until then, it’s clear that you (along with many, many others) still don’t see “them” as being members of “your” community. Sad. 🙁
Katrina changed everything, and at the same time, it changed nothing–it just brought to the surface the fact that most Americans still to this day do not see Black people and Black “issues” as “their” issues. Sad. 🙁
Heartbreaking even. 🙁
No way to win for losing. Sounds like you are critical of me for being white. Hate to think that, though.
In fact my post was all about all of us working together to get change in the party, so I don’t see where you got upset with my pronoun use.
I’m not critical of you for being white. I’m critical of you for revealing (however inadvertently) that you see blacks as being part of some “them” whose issues are not your own (obviously I’m not the only one who took issue with that in your diary).
I would be equally as critical of that line of thought if you were purple, green or black-and-blue.
The title of your diary sums up for me the foundation of thought on which your argument rests: What have you to offer ME.
And I don’t mean to be impolite or to step on your toes or to insult you. It’s just that I know that this line of thinking permeates this society and it is this line of thinking that will destroy this country, if it has not done so already.
We have to get beyond the “me” in order to finally, finally, for the first time in our history, become a “we.”
The focus on “me” and “my” issues and the inability to get involved until I-me-and-mine are directly hit is what has brought us to this crisis. This I-meism was always latently present in our uniquely american mindset, but was not really “admissable” until Reagan came along and transformed “I-me-and-mine-ism” into a “traditional family value.”
The Reagan era put the stamp of approval on “I-meism.” Greed and single-minded focus on I-me-and-mine became perfectly acceptable under Reagan. And all the folks who benefitted from “trickle down” economics (i.e. trickle down poverty) were perfectly willing to sit back and ignore what those policies were doing to the poor.
Under BushCo the boom is crashing now on those people and they’re standing there with this deer-in-the-headlights, wtf happened here look on their faces while the rest of us “thems” can do little but shake our heads and say….we told you so, and take very little pleasure in having everything we predicted and warned against substantiated.
You just hit the nail on the head. If you read my post it is not about me at all, really. It is about all of us together.
But you’d never think so from the hits I have taken on it.
I still say the Republicans will give nothing to any of us, they never will. If we walk away they get it. They get it all without a fight.
Seems to me that point would have been better made by saying
What have you to offer us.
Or something like that.
But the way you phrased it, it really did come off as being dismissive of us “thems”.
And yes I am a “them”–desperately trying to be admitted to the human race and the body of the people commonly understood in these parts to be “we, the people.”
As a “radical” (one who goes to the root of the matter) the message is, we don’t like your kind.
As a non-black member of an African American community, the same.
As a person who is genealogically and culturally of Native American descent, same thing: get the hell off this property, the unsettler population of the master race needs living space.
I belong to too many cultural, ethnic, racial, economic and educational communities to have any sense of “us and them” — I am therefore forced, by virtue of circumstance, to perpetually think outside these boxes.
What a shame.
Stark is not criticizing you for being white! What she is doing is goading you to think outside the box a bit. When one thinks in terms of “what is in it for ME” one may fail to think about “what is in it for US.”
Working together for change is good. Where we differ I guess is that I don’t consider the Democrat party an end in itself, but rather one of many means to an end. If one means fails, it is rational to look at other options to achieve that end.
“He is trying to dialogue with the gay community, but he can not give you all you want. He can’t. He does not have the power to do that.”
What Democrats have the power to do is state unequivocally where the party stands. If all they stand for is enabling corporate America to exploit and enslave the workers of the world, then they are Republican-lite, and I say, the hell with them.
Social justice, civil rights and equality under law are not quaint vanities.
Look at our country. Nearly one third of us are POOR. “Business friendly” environments are stripping workers of the few protections they have left. The old and ill are useful only as customers of big pharma. Women and people of colour are still primarily a servant class, and the powerful want to keep it that way, because the most efficient way to increase your wealth is by increasing everybody else’s poverty. I don’t need to go on. All of us here know the wealth/priviledge/power gap is growing under the Republicans. We know that the Democrats haven’t done much to stop it, and I’m not sure that they would if they could. Both parties are so beholden to big business, that the interests of those WE care about just get in their way.
Third and fourth and fifth parties are not important because the get elected. The flashing orange “GET ELECTED” sign has blinded us to the lessons of the past. It was Populists and Socialists who got us unemployment insurance, progressive tax rates, a 40 hr. work week, child labour laws, and women’s suffrage, even though we have never had a Socialist/Populist controlled House, Senate, White House, or Judiciary.
Having no strong voices on the left has allowed the Democratic Party to move so far to the right that Nixon now seems like a moderate.
aMEN!
Never thought I’d see the day when tricky dick was looking like a saint and reagan like a gentleman scholar by comparison.
The Dems in this country would be seen as just right of the center in most industrialized western countries.
At present, they’re just being seen as completely incompetent by most left-wingers in Europe–and so are we, the people, incidentally.
But who cares what them fereners think anyway. What do they know?
What happened to “Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country.”?
The best thing we can give (see- it’s not about taking, bribing or enticing) is the progressive vision. Do you remember when we asked ourselves as a country “What is the best that we can become?” We need to present this vision to the country so people can raise their heads up from the counter of their third job and say “Yes. there is a better way. We have options.”
As I tell my daughter, it isn’t all about us.
It was written more than 40 years ago, one year after my birth, but the sentiment expressed is still applicable to today. Emphases added by me.
Justice delayed, is justice denied. How much longer do the poor have to wait to have food on their tables? How much longer do gays have to wait to be first-class citizens? For that matter, blacks and Latinos? All of these people pay their taxes and do their duties as citizens, but are treated unequally in the economy. Gays are the last group in the US to be discriminated against in the eyes of the law, being denied the right of marrying the person of their choice..
I suppose the question ought to be posed to the Democratic Party–WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO OFFER ME? I voted for Kerry because he promised to fight for me, and then when the vote was stolen in Ohio and John Edwards wanted to fight, Kerry furled his flag and retreated from the battlefield.
I gave money to the Democrats because they said they’d fight against right-wing nominees to the Supreme Court. Then Bush nominated Roberts and Alito and the Democrats furled their flags and retreated from the battlefield without firing a shot.
Wait, we’re told. Tomorrow will be our day. But tomorrow never comes.
HOW MUCH LONGER WE DO HAVE TO WAIT?
I’m tired of waiting.
Beautiful. Sadly, his profound words are still so applicable today in so many ways. Thanks for posting this.
Good words. And to riff on that paraphrasing Brother Malcom – forget promises of better things in the “by and by.” Rather we need to think about better things in the “here and here” – the sooner the better, by any means necessary.
Not much time on hand right now, but I need to say I sense a lot of pain in many of the comments, and in the diary. I see a LOT of frustration over not feeling heard or understood or included,etc.
I also see that the bottom line is everyone here really wants the same thing: to do whatever can possible be done to protect us all and to change the direction this county is heading.
The very last thing we can afford to do , is to allow ourselves to become separated from each other, by anger, fear, misunderstandings or anything else, inluding our different ideas on how to handle things now. Pople, we need each other now more than ever, for support, for encouragement, for leaning on when we need to lean, for generating hope that can only be created via some sense of “community” of like others with whom we can share and pool strengths and energies as we work for for this common cause. Can’;t we still have this, even if we choose different ways to work towards that cause?
Is any group of people ever able to totally understand the mindset of any other group of people? I mean fully and unconditionally, without having had any way of walking in their footprints? Hell, I know I can’t: I can only try to. And I wonder is this even essential to finding ways to agree we all have equal worth, equal value?
florida gal, you, me, all of us, the only voice we have to use is the one that comes from inside the lives we are living and the one we know about. NO one knows everything about how everyones lives are. Can’t we cut each other some damned slack in trying to communicate with each other? Can’t we try just a little harder to remember we are NOT each others enemy.
The enermy is over there. Look, see it? It doesn’t look like any of us here. It looks like the ugly fucking monster it IS.
THAT’S who deserves the anger. Not you. Not me. Not florida gal or anyone else who risks raising thier voices here from a sincere heart that only wants what we all want and says so in the only voice they possess.
Let me ask you a question.
Do you think the democratic party would support and participate in an association that is greater/larger than the dem party and was inclusive of other parties to work together to promote policies rather than candidates?
Will there even be a planet for your children and grandchildren to inherit? This is much more serious than some special interest groups that are unhappy. This is about a party leadership that has laid supine while the most dangerous administration in American history has consigned the nation to endless war, unleashed Armageddon in Mesopotamia, arrogated to itself dictatorial powers, and basically unwritten the Constitution and turned our democracy into an oligarchy. Where are the Democrats? Triangulating themselves right into Dick Cheney’s hip pocket. You’re welcome to trust this party to get us out of this disaster that they co-created. I wouldn’t trust them to walk my dog.
I think where your diary gets off on the wrong foot is at the beginning where you accuse those of us who see something broader, greater then the Democrat party as trying to “destroy it.” Since I am one of those pushing the frogpond to consider alternatives (the Solidarity concept is the one I tend to dig on) I take it that I am one of those you’re accusing of “destroying.”
For me, the Democrats as a party were never more than a means to an end. If the party fails as a means, then for the sake of preserving some shred of those things we value and to expand on those things we value, we must look for other means.