Two days ago Meteor Blades made an appeal for a monthlong cease fire of the circular firing squad in favor of getting our butts off our couches and out into the trenches, for the final push. This pissed off Madman in the Marketplace, who basically called Meteor Blades, part Native American, a house nigger. MB responded here.
Madman posts a lot of diaries here and I am glad he does. I like his writing, I am sympathetic to most of his political views, and he provides a good and dissenting viewpoint most of the time.
However, his reading of history and his political strategies are deeply flawed.
Let’s begin with an observation by Chris Bowers.
If Democrats sweep Congress this year, it will be the
first time in history that Democrats will have a congressional majority
without also having a majority of congressional seats in the south. In
the post-election aftermath, we will also have an opportunity to shift
the center of political discussion in this country significantly to the
left. If the coming Democratic landslide is accurately recognized as
largely originating from the netroots and the progressive movement,
Republicans of all stripes will, at least briefly, try to team up with
LieberDems. If Joe Lieberman thus becomes to icon of the American
right-wing, the center of political discourse in this country will have
dramatically shifted in just six years. From 1990-2000, people like Joe
Lieberman were supposed to be the savior of the American left, or so we
were told.Perhaps because it is happening so quickly, I am not sure if people
realize how much a post- New Deal, post-Dixiecrat, and post-DLC
Democratic majority would represent a significant shift in power in
this country. I am not sure if I grasp it yet either, but I think it
would represent the first real break with conservatism this country has
seen since the days of FDR. No matter how much further the progressive
movement would still need to travel, a Democratic victory on November
7th would be no small event in the history of our movement or the
history of our country.
Chris specializes in looking at polls and election results. He is seeing some numbers that are making him a little giddy. I don’t see a takeover of both houses, with our current crop of candidates, as representing some hugely progressive revolution…particularly in the Senate, where our new members would include the pro-life Casey, the pro-torture Ford, the former Reagan official Webb, and the decidedly moderate Tester. Working off current polls, our narrow Democratic majority would include not only these moderates, but also Lieberman, the Nelsons, Pryor, and Landrieu. It was also include the decidely DLC Carper, Clinton, and Bayh. It would include non-progressives like Feinstein, Cantwell, and Salazar. A newly minted Democratic Senate, with pro-life Harry Reid as Leader, would not be some progressive panacea. What’s more, the very success of the strategy of running people like Webb, Ford, and Casey, might encourage Democrats to recruit more of these types of candidates, further condemning the progressives hopes for influence in the Senate. And this makes up the heart of Madman’s call for an abandonment of the Democratic Party in favor of third-party candidates. For Madman, only by the failure of Schumer’s recruitment plan, will the Democrats learn the lessons that are needed to put us back on a New Deal/Great Society footing that will bring us real majority status and real progressive reforms.
Since I have focused on the Senate here, I will follow on and examine this from the point of view of the Senate, even though I think the most significant changes will emerge from the House.
There are not a lot of progressives in the Senate. If I had to make a list I would include Harkin, Kennedy, Boxer, Feingold, Leahy, and Murray. Let’s look at what roles they might fill in a Democratic majority Senate. Harkin would be in line for the Chair of the Agriculture Committee. Leahy would be in line for Chair of the Judiciary Committee, Kennedy would be in line for Chair of the Health, Education, Labor & Pensions committee, Boxer would most likely take over the Environment Committee, Murray would be number two on the Budget Committee.
If we win the Senate, we will also see two new progressives, Bernie Sanders of Vermont and Sherrod Brown of Ohio, join the caucus and give aid and comfort to Russ Feingold. Feingold does not stand to move to the top of any committees. He currently has low to medium level seniority on Budget, Foreign Relations, Judiciary, and Intelligence. Those are major committees, and he will have a role.
Now it is time to look at the House. Everyone is probably aware that John Conyers Jr. stands to become Chair of the Judiciary Committee. People are probably less aware that Alcee Hastings, African-American from Florida, has a good chance to head the Intelligence Committee. Or how about African-American Charlie Rangel as head of Ways and Means? Or ultra-liberal Henry Waxman as Chair of Government Reform? Liberal David Obey as Chair of Appropriations? Liberal George Miller as Chair of Education? Barney Frank, a homosexual, as Chair of Financial Services? African-American Bennie Thompson as Chair of Homeland Security? Liberal Tom Lantos as Chair of International Relations? African-American Juanita Millender-McDonald, as Chair of House Administration? Liberal woman, and Kossack, Louise McIntosh Slaughter as Chair of the Rules Committee? Hispanic woman, Nydia M. Velazquez, as Chair of the Small Business Committee? Or liberal James Oberstar as Chair of Transportation?
That’s the future that awaits us. And if we do really well in the upcoming elections, we will not just see Rahm Emanual’s candidates doing well. We’ll see candidates that are truly progressive, that owe nothing or less than nothing to Emanuel, taking positions of power.
It’s impossible for me to see the advantage of the Republicans retaining power in light of the prospects for so many progressives, women, minorities, and even a high profile homosexual, taking Committee Chairs in Congress.
The power in Washington will be much more focused on those Chairs than on the perceived success of Rahm and Chuck. Let George Miller and Teddy Kennedy set our education policy and Leahy and Conyers determine the ways of our laws and courts.
I am not downplaying Madman’s concerns. But the recipe for success is not more failure. The DLC will not be emboldened by this future landscape. The progressives that find themselves suddenly in power will be the driving force for our party going forward. And if we are going to be a truly ruling party, we are going to have, just as FDR and LBJ’s coalitions did, members that are out of the mainstream of the party and that are uncomfortably conservative.
Perfect.
It is great to have an argument based on what if dems WIN!
…Madman is a fine writer, and I often agree with his take on specific subjects.
On his views regarding electoral strategy, however, I think he is dead wrong. People will have to make up their own minds about whether my approach – trying to elect Democrats and moving them to the left while working outside the electoral system in the arenas of environment, reproductive rights, anti-militarism and anti-racism – is the correct one. There are cogent arguments, like the one you have made here, BooMan, on all sides of this matter.
As for Madman’s view that I am a traitor and a sell-out to the cause, I was called that by members of the Weather faction of SDS, too. My grandfather, a 19-year regional organizer for the United Mine Workers and a strong critic of the Democratic Party, was himself called a sell-out for backing FDR in ’32 and ’36. Clearly, that was a mistake. If he had backed the Socialists or Communists, we’d have a whole different political system in America by now.
What would this whole new political system look like, to your mind? Do elaborate.
…snarkily that we would have if the Socialists or Communists had won in ’32? Or the one I’d like to see now?
The socialist/communist one. Personally I think we could have used a big dose of socialism. I couldn’t tell if your statement reflected celebration or regret that it lost out.
good people follow the dictates of their conscience. I trust that you are doing that. However, I notice that voices like mine are being systematically driven off many communities, while yours is frontpaged. While I’m sure that at least part of that is due to me being a blunt, impolitic loudmouth, I did hang in for months at dkos trying to keep a more leftist perspective in play, no matter how imperfectly. I was relentlessly trolled for my trouble, and eventually banned. One must ask question the true purpose of a “liberal” site that drives debate using Red State tactics. A party as ineffective as the Democrats needs a vital debate, a fervent experimental environment where ideas can be subjected to debate. I remember when DK used to be that. Now it might as well be owned by Carville.
Madman
I’ve front paged your diaries here before, and probably will again.
This isn’t dkos.
oh, and I didn’t mean to imply that it was. If that is how it read that wasn’t my intention.
Why not a dual track approach.
Mr. Inside and Ms. Outside.
These do not have to be antagonistic strategies.
except that the “insiders” join in the right’s demonization of us “outsiders”. Notice that the center-right Reps almost NEVER attack the far right? Do you ever see any of them Sister Souljah the Minutemen or Ann Coulter?
They should let us attack, let us do what needs to be done … instead they’d rather work with the right.
Exactly! Taking an aggresive stance would really attrack many people who are so disgusted that they are not voting.
…a dual track. I spend about half my time in an election year working to get Dems elected, the rest on issue activism. One can do both.
I have not been politically aware for long enough to know this, so I will pose it as a question:
The approach that you and MB suggest, would you say that if you flipped it around, it is how the Republican leadership has gotten so right-wing? That is, they started out by winning with whatever candidates they could, then gradually pushed to the right?
Or is there no reverse-analogy to be made there at all?
made an interesting comment at dinner a while back; the right-wing kept their true aims quiet until they got into power and solidified their base, so they weren’t seen as the wingnuts they truly have proven to be.
I used to be more in the Madman frame of thinking — but the Ned Lamont victory over Lieberman has changed my mind. We have the power to remove any Senator or Representative that does not truly represent our interests…whether that person be Republican, Democrat or whatever. If Casey, or Tester, or Webb, or any other member of Congress is not truly representing those who sent them there, the electorate does have the means to say, “You’re fired!” And the netroots are here to supply time, talent, and treasure to worthy challengers.
I’m thinking of a line from the faux-President in the Kevin Kline movie Dave: “I forgot that you sent me here to do a job…and it was a temp job at that.” Our representatives need to keep that in mind…and it’s up to us to remind them…
I think the netroots are certainly gaining power…we’re not there yet though. The Lamont victory was a sign of the beginning of a shift, not the end result, I think.
In 10 years, I hope we have as much power over the Democratic party as the religious right has over the Republicans. I guess I kind of see the internet tools that are becoming available for fundraising and organization as a counter to the right’s use of the church. They’ve obviously had a huge head start in terms of infrastructure…
I dig that quote from Dave. I haven’t seen that movie, but that line fits perfectly.
Kevin Kline in dual role as an obviously right-wing President…and the lovable semi-doofus hired as a “body double” who ends up in the Oval Office.
Sigourney Weaver as the First Lady who detests her husband, but falls for his replacement.
Frank Langella as a deliciously evil Chief of Staff — think Cheney but without the charm…no wait, just think Cheney…
Harmless fluff with a bit of a lesson included — how anyone can make a difference if they just try.
Unfortunately Tower Records is being liquidated…but maybe I’ll pick up the DVD at the closeout sale…
IMdb Link
the theofascists and libertarian right gained control of the Republican party by relentlessly doing exactly what I’m advocating. The mercilessly went after centrists (they, after all, coined “RINO”). They caused many of them to go down in flames, or to move right after near losses. That’s the history of the last 30 years, in a nutshell. When I was first becoming politically aware, in my teens, the John Birchers and Goldwater righties were a joke … now they run all three branches of gov’t and are dismantling this country. They did it by destroying the center of their party and moving it rightward, and they were willing to lose some elections to do it.
I would only say this. In the long run you may be right, but those far right conservatives weren’t dealing with a tyrant as President, nor were they dealing with one party rule (in part because the Democrats truly were a big tent back in the 60’s and included lots of people who are now Republicans).
We are in the midst of a constitutional crisis. In the short term, though I do not care for the Democratic party as presently constituted, they are the best shot we have at preventling Bush from doing more harm. Even if they capture Congress, I give them at best a 50-50 shot to do so, but that’s better than no shot.
well, you’re not understanding what Roe and Brown and “liberals” mean to the far right. From their POV, the Dems were every bit as dangerous as we view the Bush Administration. It’s not just rhetoric for most of them … they BELIEVE their talk of us being traitors, destroying their children and all the rest.
The best shot we have is to destroy the current Dem leadership. Anything less only helps them to continue to help the right destroy this country in the advancement of their own narrow personal interests.
Well, they may do it to themselves. Or Diebold may (far more likely in my view). But what the Gopers worried about wasn’t an imminent threat, it was a long term threat. What we face is much more immediate in my view.
But that’s jmo. I make no pretense at being a political guru.
well, you’re not understanding what Roe and Brown and “liberals” mean to the far right. From their POV, the Dems were every bit as dangerous as we view the Bush Administration. It’s not just rhetoric for most of them … they BELIEVE their talk of us being traitors, destroying their children and all the rest.
Of course that gets back to the original sin of racism and sexism–and the more I think about it, a slow-simmer civil war that’s still being fought. They don’t believe in these things, and neither do they believe in upholding one-person, one-vote (Reynolds v. Sims).
There’s a reason that I remembered seeing “Impeach Earl Warren” bumperstickers while a teenager in the late 80s. Twenty years after he left the court? It’s no mistake that Warren is NOT the Republican the wingnuts venerate…better a 3rd rate actor kicking off his presidential race in Philadelphia, MS.
I don’t know when people will understand, finally, that our national government is essentially a segregationist one–sans white sheets and hoods (Trent Lott & George Allen notwithstanding, although they prefer the company of the white collar CCC to the white hood KKK.) They’re always ready for a fight, as long as someone else is holding the gun. These people believe themselves to be superior to all others. The people who look up to them do so in their slavish manner because they believe them to be “their betters.” They, as a government, are accountable to no one. And they’ll buy off a preacher or two to keep the masses in check with any earthly payoffs the preachers desire. After all, it’s much more lucrative to bash gays than to call out a corrupt politician–no one wants a lighter collection plate or a denied faith-based grant.
Anyway…change of convo, but not quite the subject. I feel like I’m close to having a Howard Beale moment. There’s a huge part of me that agrees with Meteor. We’ve got to get the Congress back to actually get some investigations done, etc. But I’m already reading of Dems perhaps “playing nice” and “pulling their punches” if they win. (And I’m damned tired of folks believing this is a damned done deal or something…it isn’t.) We have so many crises we need to address, and we’re going to hold back?
And I know it may happen. I thought that working within the party would make a difference for people. I don’t anymore. And I’ve been thinking, Have I just wasted 10 years of my life? I’ve done all the things new to the big blog boys in the name of unity. Been there, done that, lost the T-shirt but still stuck with the bill. And while there are lots of skills I learned, people I met, opportunities I’ve had,(not to mention paid the bills and provided some benefits) it seems that nothing has changed, fundamentally, for the better. In fact, I feel things have just gotten worse.
I went to a “unity” event today here in Maryland (since I’m involved locally) and left early. I don’t know what I thought I was going to hear. Usually, these things amuse me–and hey, I’m not above listening to gossip or dish or laughing at god-awful speeches.
But I was not amused. I was depressed. It was the familiar “we need you to go out and vote” but vote for…what? Ben Cardin is seeking to fill Paul Sarbanes’ seat. Wanna know who’s filling Cardin’s congressional seat (should he win the general, which is most likely). Sarbanes…as in our Sen. Sarbanes’ son. The top of the ticket is O’Malley-Brown-Cardin-Gansler-Franchot. (That would be Gov-Lt.Gov-Sen-AG-Comptroller.) All men. All white except (heh, heh) Brown– running for Lt. Gov., which now seems to be the designated “Black” seat since Ehrlich called the party on its bluff by putting up Republipuppet Steele. Of course, he’s just as right-wing but the wingnuts have gladly fallen into line, b/c they know Steele will. Man of Steele? Please. You mean the Rubberstamp Man. (Anyone in the area having seen his latest campaign ads about poor, persecuted Steele will understand the ethos of his commercial: Karl Rove told me to say that I can think for myself) But I digress…
It just felt farcical all the way around. I just tuned out our incoherent and corrupt county executive. Al Wynn was tasked with introducing Ben Cardin and says that Ben’s smart, skilled and does a lot of work on pension reform, which he remarked “is pretty boring” but important. WTF? Hasn’t he noticed that no one in the country is going to have a pension by the time these venal wingnuts have finished their economic smash and grab on this country–except for the electeds? Or is that the point? But anyway, he goes on to laud the work of welfare deform (huh???) and some other stuff that I tuned out on because at that point, I really needed coffee…something.
Anyway, so here are the party leaders, talking up how great our barely reelected county executive and congressman are (the machine, clearly in need of a tune up) knowing full damned well they would never support them doing anything more than what they are doing now. But it’s the community’s fault for keeping them there. As long as we say, I know he’s corrupt (the county executive) but he comes to my church we will continue to get what we have. But I suppose it’s “no harm, no foul” while we push the Lex to our $500K house. Praise God and pass the Prada.
But again, I digress.
As hard as it is may be for some folks here to believe, the best speech was given by Steny Hoyer. He came closest to articulating a vision. But by the time O’Malley&Brown reached the stage, I just couldn’t take it any more.
This is a diary-length comment without an ending, I know. I’m just left with more questions than anything else. At what point do people vote for someone who upholds a vision and a plan of action instead of voting against someone or a party? At what point do we grow a spine? At what point do we start speaking in plain English about what our country is faced with? When do people stop swallowing the okey doke? No one wants to deal with things as they are, but just hope that we can pray it away without any work on our part.
I hope Dems win the House and/or Senate back b/c that’s the only way we can apply some disinfectant to this disgusting admin. Beyond that…???
this could be great diary. BTW- do you watch the HBO show, The Wire?
Thanks.
If I sound exasperated by the action of the Dems, it’s because I come by that honestly. There are some of us who keep thinking the rethugs are smarter than they are.
Can’t say I watch “The Wire” since I had a snit-fit on CONcast cable a few years ago and never went back. (Believe it or not, we’re cable free. Would try to get satellite but we have tall trees behind our home which blocks the signal.) I’ve heard it’s excellent, though.
The best shot we have is to destroy the current Dem leadership.
Why? So some imaginary army of progressive candidates can rise from the ashes and take their place in Congress? It’s not gonna happen for years, if ever. We have a 2-party system (unless you and Republicans successfully turn the USA into a single-party state) in a priggish moderately conservative country, if you succeed in smearing a Democrat so badly that he or she loses, the replacement will be a Republican. I don’t think electing even more Republicans is a good thing.
so that we can begin to build something to replace them. They only help the Republicans to screw us anyway. Better that the Reps not have the “bipartisan” red bow to tie around their crimes. Isn’t that why most of you want Lieberman gone? The rest aren’t all that different from Holy Joe, only less obvious about it. It is already a defacto one-party state.
A majority of Americans are pro-women’s autonomy. A majority of Americans want the minimum wage increased. A majority of Americans want some form of universal healthcare. A majority of Americans want the gov’t to punish poluters. A majority of Americans want an effective public education systems. A majority of Americans want corporate greed and corruption to be controlled.
A majority of Americans have liberal ideas, but they have no one to turn to to articulate these ideas effectively. A majority of Americans want to live-and-let-live. You have swallowed rightwing agitprop and made it real. It’s hard to blame you … “this is a conservative country” has been repeated in various forms by the media and increasingly conservative talking heads since WW2, but when you actually talk to people they just want people to be treated fairly, they want “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” to be something manifest in this country.
Despite whatever racism and fear Americans hold in their hearts and allow to be manipulated, if you really sit down and talk to people, less than a third are hard-core rightists, a few more think they are, and the rest are really liberal in most of their attitudes but don’t know it.
Getting rid of the greedy collaborationist Dems would open up the conversation to enable REAL liberals to appear. It took the right five decades to get us here … it’s going to take a long time to make it right. I know it’s hard, but face the hard facts of our reality.
Non-responsive government to the majority voting class seems to be tolerated in epidemic proportion since about 1980, but especially since 2000. Why??
Voter stupidity??
Propaganda from media?
Lack of time by workers to care or notice the details??
Non-responsive system of government so there is no other choice??
Ah, I like that last one. Just remember who is the richest and most corporate connected member of the Senate to get the answer; nevermind that you have to be a zillionaire to even get elected in either party. Not good if you believe that everyone eventually looks out for their own financial well being first!!
Did you ever really wonder what that Skull and Bones Society at Yale really stands for?
I agree with you in principle. I don’t like the Democratic party, I’m not particularly enthused about supporting them, and I am one of the people who says 2006 is their last chance to show something resembling principles. I would love a replacement party to spring up and will support it when it gets here, though I don’t have the resources to contribute anything measurable to it’s formation.
That said, barring the inevitable massive fraud, we are looking at a massive defeat for the evil people in power. Democratic leaders may not be on our side in the long run, but their goals match ours for the next 3 months and I think that is too good an opportunity to pass up. We should get ready to fight when they inevitably stab us in the back, but I also believe we should take this chance to cripple the larger enemy first.
orange.
You posted this at a place where Madman can’t defend himself?
What the fuck stupid shit is that Booman?
I was just shaking my head at your FP of this since you put plenty of your .02 in Madman’s thread but when you put this in ORANGE you really crossed a line with me.
Now I know for certain you wrote this to up your standing with the boyz club. Hope you can at least redeem the brownie points for a new toaster.
I hadn’t thought of Madman’s banning when I posted it there. I guess that is unfair. It was unintentional. This isn’t an attack on Madman though. It’s a debate.
well, there is no genuine conversation in that place anyway. It is dead as a genuine place for debate, and has been for some time.
Thanks for throwning down the gauntlet. My reply is below.
I was just going to point out that it’s nothing but another pissing match between DH’s cheerleaders to see who can be the most obnoxious over there…
I was just going to point out that it’s nothing but another pissing match between DH’s cheerleaders to see who can be the most obnoxious over there…
What a shock, no one could have possibly predicted that reaction! …those would be Meteor Blades’s ‘big tent’ liberal friends.
Booman,
I believe you that you didn’t think about Madman’s banning when you posted over there.
Nonetheless, I think it was unfair. Moreover, I’m not sure why you had to couch this debate as Meteor vs Madman. The issues were worth discussing without having to involve the personalities, in my opinion.
BooMan posted this at dKos in response to Meteor Blades diary over there.
And he posted it here in response to Madman’s response here.
I see no problem — Madman is able to come and defend himself here if he feels like he must; but I don’t see this as an attack on Madman, but merely the expression of a different strategy, one that has the potential of restoring a semblance of sanity to our government rather than sentencing us to unknown years in darkness and despair.
…at Daily Kos any reply that Madman wishes to make.
Thanks for that. However, it would be futile, and I’m not in the mood to have my digital corpse dragged through the village square again anyway. People know where to find me, and I always get great discussions on crossposts right here in the pond.
If Markos was interested in genuine debate, he’d reactivate my account. However, he, Armando, DH and Del Dem and others have poisoned what that site once was, so I don’t know that I’d see much value in engaging them anymore. I might as well post on Red State.
I appreciate the offer, though.
It’s so fucking obvious that you are not a goddamned troll.
By the way, Madman… I am gearing up to join you in their Siberia. If it hasn’t occurrred to you before, I would like to invite you to post at MLW. In fact, I’d consider it a goddamned HONOUR if you’d be a guest front pager there.
Let me know.
thanks Maryscott. those are very kind words.
The Big Boy Blogs are pretty poisonous, and you’ll be happier for the distance.
I appreciate the invitation. Right now, I’ve cut way back on the time I spend in blogs, but I’ll certainly keep your invite in mind in the future.
Excellent summation of the argument, Boo. Or at least the best-case scenario. It’s hard to get a reading on where the balance of power would lie among a congressional majority of Dems. I have to agree that, given the current destruction the GOP has inflicted on our society, now is not the time to enable their continued domination by splitting off from the Dems. A Dem majority will give leverage to the left of the party, and maybe this time, at long last, our side of the spectrum will manage to give them the support, cover, and motivation that they need. To my mind, whether we engage in that effort and succeed will be an even more crucial crisis point than whether the Dems win congresional control.
The argument between the two views represented in this thread amounts to a short-term tactical one vs a longer-term philosophical one. Partly due to Dem ineptitude and chickenshitness, we are once again in a position where we have to sacrifice long-term change for right-now electoral expediency. Just like so many times before.
The agony behind the whole third-party alternative is that there’s no way it can work under the shamefully dysfunctional electoral system we suffer under. The winner-take-all two party setup provides no way to form coalitions, share power, or leverage minority votes in exchange for concessions. As a result, diverse political opinions and proposals are permanently shut out of the political process, and genuinely new approaches are inevitably stillborn — that’s why the only real changes in our history have happened only in the midst of severe threats to the system itself.
To my mind the only cure for our electoral tumor would be a Constitutional Convention empowered to correct our Founders’ biggest mistake. To expect such self-sacrifcie by even the most progressive Dem regime is to indulge in the most naive kind of fantasy. Hence the anger from folks like Madman (and me), and the difficulty some of us have giving way fully to the joy of a Dem sweep this year. And yet it’s the only real thing we have to work for.
I live in PA, and see Bob Casey as a giant step backwards for freedom-privacy rights in this country. I see his election along with Harry Reid as giving cover to the conservative religious fanatics so their supposed political party, the repubs, can escape full blame when the women of this country finally wake up to their second class citizenship status.
I hear the arguments being made here, but I got to tell you that I will be both sad and angry at myself for betraying core principles if I pull that Casey lever!! I realize it is my problem and a cross I will have to bear, but I do wonder how many others are having this same crisis of conscience in having this horrible choice between Santorum, Casey, and empty line?
don’t do it if it aches like that. At some point, we have to follow the dictates of our consciences, and stop cooperating in the fix.
I hear the arguments being made here, but I got to tell you that I will be both sad and angry at myself for betraying core principles if I pull that Casey lever!! I realize it is my problem and a cross I will have to bear, but I do wonder how many others are having this same crisis of conscience in having this horrible choice between Santorum, Casey, and empty line?
I think it’s all our problem. Over on DK MB’s friends are presenting Casey as God’s gift to Women and themselves as ‘feminists’.
The fact of the matter is that both candidates are vile men and there isn’t much difference between the two. My sense is that should Casey win, MB and his friends and his party will decide that running religious right candidates and lying about it to the stupid women is a winning ‘strategy’. They will proceed to run as many right wing religious right candidates as possible. In order to ‘win’. Because they’re so smart and all.
…for this: I think it’s all our problem. Over on DK MB’s friends are presenting Casey as God’s gift to Women and themselves as ‘feminists’.
I think most people are well aware of Casey’s right-of-center stands on a variety of issues, and nobody has presented him as God’s gift to women.
I am no fan of Bob Casey. His stand on reproductive rights (and some other matters) goes against my views and the work that I have done dating far back. I was not happy that the party establishment backed him. I contributed money to a long-shot primary opponent of his. But Casey won the primary. And I would rather have him in the Senate voting “the right way” 80% or 50% of the time than Rick Santorum voting the right way 10% of the time. If that makes me stupid, then I embrace it wholly.
Your statement about 80% vs 10% may explain your procedural beliefs, but they are not evidence against what this poster has said in an admittedly exaggerated manner. When the poster says
…for this: I think it’s all our problem. Over on DK MB’s friends are presenting Casey as God’s gift to Women and themselves as ‘feminists’.
it brings back to my mind the postings during and after the PA primary when the supposedly liberal dem blogs were debating Casey’s fitness to represent dems core principles. Now maybe I do not know all the major progressive-liberal blogs in the world, but I would have thought in the past that Kos and Bower’s blogs were two of them. No more do I think this. The only times I was troll rated on kos was when I posted that Casey did not represent vital core Dem principles and therefore should not be selected. At least on Kos I just got troll rated by the same few control freaks, but on Bower’s blog, I was banned for suggesting this.
If you had told me a year ago that I would be troll rated and or banned on a so-called democratic blog for strongly suggesting that women’s reproductive freedom issues were/should be a major core principle of any Democratic candidate, I would not believed you. Something has gone very wrong in the core principle area of the party I used to call the democratic party if these two blogs are truly representative of Dems!
Something has gone very wrong in the core principle area of the party I used to call the democratic party if these two blogs are truly representative of Dems!
DK and TNH and my DD are representative of the thinking of Democratic party operatives and strategists and idiots who think that politics is something like a HS football game. Appalling, aren’t they? I’ve been reading them for several years now and the experience has made me a firm political Independent.
I think most people are well aware of Casey’s right-of-center stands on a variety of issues, and nobody has presented him as God’s gift to women.
Oh you are so wrong, Bob Casey is great on everything but abortion, hadn’t you heard? He would actually allow women to work outside the home! Indeed I’ve seen you participating in threads where this sort of lying nonsense was being spun by your friends.
Perhaps had you even for a thread stood up to the Casey promoters you might have a shred of credibility left.
And I would rather have him in the Senate voting “the right way” 80% or 50% of the time than Rick Santorum voting the right way 10% of the time.
Here’s what we know about how Casey would vote. We know that he would have voted for the invasion and occupation of Iraq, we know that he would vote for right wing Federalist society members as SCOTUS justices and we know that he would vote to criminalize pretty much any abortion.
Here’s what we know about how Casey would vote. We know that he would have voted for the invasion and occupation of Iraq, we know that he would vote for right wing Federalist society members as SCOTUS justices and we know that he would vote to criminalize pretty much any abortion.
Exactly. Casey could have kept his mouth shut, but he wanted us all to know that he would have voted for Sam Alito and the Iraq war. What he does try to keep his mouth shut about is his pro-life positions. Gee, I wonder why?
My comment on August 23, 2006:
And this:
right back at you MB. I wasn’t clear. I didn’t mean a couple of mild paragraphs about you and your faint apologetic, Alan Colmesish ‘opposition’ when I was speaking of standing.
…mischaracterization of someone’s comments, not an occasional occurrence with you, but a habit.
Not some talking point from DHinMI and your other dear friends.
Besides, if you and Dana and McJoan are so deeply concerned about mischaracterizing other people’s comments why weren’t you objecting when they insisted repeatedly that Madman called you a ‘nigger’? What cowards y’all are.
I didn’t see MB’s reply on my diary before I saw this, so I’ll post my reply here:
People learn fastest from negative consequences. It’s not about electing the third party (though I would love to see one develop that is strong enough to win), but rather to finally start punishing them for repeated triangulations and betrayals. They brought us welfare “reform”. They gave Clarence Thomas a pass. They bend over backwards for Israel and for our military industrial complex over and over again. The center-right machines of the party refused to support the McGovern campaign in ’72 … they did everything they could to undermine it, and they use that loss as an excuse to destroy all of the good done under FDR & LBJ. It’s far past time for the left to return the favor, to quit being good little puppies paying penance for a loss three decades ago. I’m with the guys over at SMBIVA … destroy the donk party in order to save the nation.
For the last 20 years, if not longer, they sell out the base, the base forgives them and plays along, they lose, they blame the base for the loss. The left worked VERY hard for that hack Kerry, who ran a campaign even worse than Gore’s. The day after that spineless gigolo conceded, his hacks and advisors were blaming everybody but themselves.
Giving them a majority now will reward them for courting misogynists, warmongers and crypto-racist southerners. Not gonna help them do it, and supporting those kinds of people will only encourage more of the same.
If there is a Dem Congress, the Republicans will hang every failure on them in ’08, and being clueless and still beholden to really bad consultants, the Donks will let them do it, again.
Anybody who thinks that we got those worthy goals accomplished by appeasing a political party by supporting the enemies of those goals is misreading history.
On the day after they win a majority, they will tell us all to fuck off and continue to cash their checks from GE and Warner Brothers etc.
As for the implication that you’re the “house nigger” … well, no one has ever accused me of being one to couch my words. You do great work on the environment, esp w/ Grist. However, the Daily Kos has pursued a relentless rightward slide, stifling debate and doing everything it can to help the Schrums, Carville, Rosenberg et al to manage consent and drive the genuine left from any access to large communities of readers. This ill-serves the party, ill-serves the debate and ill-serves the nation. Your history and writings serve as a “beard” to dress up this center-right Rockefellar Republican drag in liberal clothes. I trust that you have chosen this course with the best intentions, but you’re being used to ill purpose.
A commentor here, in a comment on an earlier diary (damned if I can remember which one), pointed out a wonderful thing said by William Lloyd Garrison, words that I’ve adopted as a bit of a motto:
We live in dire times. We face the end of our Republic, at the hands of venal, monstrous men, protected only by a bunch of careerist hacks who care only for themselves. I’m sorry that my language is so harsh, that it perhaps stings a little, but I feel I have no choice.
If there is a Dem Congress, the Republicans will hang every failure on them in ’08, and being clueless and still beholden to really bad consultants, the Donks will let them do it, again.
I’m one of those that could go either way with this particular argument. I see value in both positions – which is really frustrating to me. But this quote above captures one of my fears about what will happen if we win in this election. I just get a feeling of exhaustion when I think about the “right wing consipiracy” going into battle mode again and no strong response from the Dems.
For example, I don’t think we change our current climate until Dems begin to take on the “frame” of the WOT. If the world survives this particular war, it will ONLY be because we finally realize that toughness driven by fear will NOT make us safer. But the Dems are so afraid to take this on – I just see them cowering when the right wing takes after them or going along with the craziness. There are times when I can see myself even more depressed about our future because the Dems are doing it to us and we can’t blame it on the Repugs anymore.
We face the end of our Republic, at the hands of venal, monstrous men, protected only by a bunch of careerist hacks who care only for themselves.
Agreed. Times are dire and urgent. Is it too much to ask that we get rid of the monstrous men before we punish the hacks?
in a country this big, with a representative form of gov’t, you need champions to get the bad guys, hired hunters to kill the beasts. WE HAVE PRECIOUS FEW CHAMPIONS. Voting for the Elephants in Donkey clothing we’re having shoved down our throats isn’t helping to find those hunters … it’s creating more village elders who will sacrifice less powerful members of society to appease the beasts AND maintain their perks.
We have a few hunters (Conyers, Feingold, etc.) already and will add more with the incoming freshmen. Putting them in the majority gives them subpeona power and allows them to do real damage, though it unfortunately also gives us “leaders” like Biden and Hoyer. How do you expect the hunters to hunt if you won’t give them weapons?
a scary number of possible freshmen are righties … that’s who Emmanuel recruits and funds.
You’ll end up where I am now eventually. “I concede” coming out of both sides of that gigolo’s mouth was the last straw for me.
I’m actually not that far from where you are already, maybe 90% idealist instead of 99%. I don’t support Emmanuel, Hoyer, Schumer, Obama, etc., but they aren’t as bad as Republicans and a month isn’t too long to focus on bigger enemies.
The economy is tanking and what is needed is a combination of another New Deal and the Great Society. Instead, all that is being done is destroying both!
Lets just say that, despite Diebold and their own incompetence, the Donks take both Houses. What will you do when Hoyer stabs Pelosi in the back, using the additional centrists in the caucus to do it? What will you do w/ they fuck over or hamstring Conyers? What will you do when Casey and Webb help force Durbin out of the leadership? In Bush’s America, and under newer rules adopted by the Republicans, seniority means NOTHING. Can you hear it now, the arguments that they CAN’T allow Pelosi, Conyers, Waxman, Feingold, Durbin, Boxer and the others into chairmanships because they don’t want to look “weak” on terror, or the Iraq War, or that Impeachment would be bad in these post-911 days?
What will you do?
How will you feel if your vote helped them isolate the actual liberals in the party even further, as even more of the Dems will be DLC/NDN (flipsides of the same coin) Blue Dogs?
That’s what’s coming if they win, folks. Say hello to Posner as the next Supreme when Stevens or Ginsberg finally drops dead or says “fuck it”. The Dems will make a half-hearted show of opposition then usher him right in like they did Thomas.
Maybe then you’ll see what we will eventually have to do one way or another.
…both inside and outside the party. What will YOU do if the Democrats lose?
as you can guess, I don’t get along w/ the bully tactics and/or compromise much better in the meat world and am not in any physical state to go door-to-door (though I’m getting better w/ some help). I’m pretty shy and really not great in groups.
I will continue to write what I write, and to send LTE that never manage to get printed. That’s the one thing I feel I have to offer, as I have little money. I’m sure that meager list disqualifies me in the dkos party activist world, but citizens offer what they have to offer. I will follow my conscience and vote accordingly.
I’m lucky in that I’m represented by Feingold and Gwen Moore in DC, though sadly my rep in the state House is a catholic misogynist and his liberal opponent flamed out before the primary, so I will be leaving that ballot line blank. I support Rae Vogeler on the Green line against the increasingly worthless Herb Kohl. I support Fair Wisconsin against the Hate Amendment here. I’m reasonably confident that this bellweather state will be the first to kill a Hate Amendment, and I’m hopeful that the long tradition of rejecting the death penalty will continue.
…to denigrate what any does to further their politics. You do what you can, I do what I can. Fortunately, since my scare in 2004, I’m fine in the health department and, financially, I’m better off than most so I can contribute both to election campaigns – always individuals, never the party organization – and issue campaigns of various sorts dear to my heart. I’d love to live in an anti-death penalty state.
Madman, these are legislative procedural questions that have strong implications and deserve attention.
However, I have been asking a real political power question about the giant untapped potential anger from women when they realize how second class their citizenship in American has become, and who will they blame. Another way of looking at it is that this women’s rights and freedom issue could be brought to a political head even now for the benefit of any progressive party if the correct info and advocacy was put out there on a widespread basis. Instead, we get repub-like so-called Dems forcing this issue under the rug and even giving cover to the conservative repub party because women will not see clearly who to blame whenever they do finally wake up.
I am utterly dismayed and perplexed as to why this delegation of women to 14th century status in today’s political America is not as big an issue as anything else out there!!
I agree, wholeheartedly.
I feel the same way re: disability rights. Many untapped voters as all candidates seem to say wait til 2008!
We know what we will get if the Republicans remain in control.
You are predicting what you believe will happen if the Dems gain control of both houses. As possible as your predictions may be, you might be wrong – and therein lies hope.
I really don’t think they’ll win both Houses, but if they do I expect at least many of my predictions to come true. I’m past hoping for the best from these people.
My fondest hope, should my predictions bear out, would be for the true libs and progressives to join soon-to-be-Senator Saunders in an independent caucus. I have daydreams of Feingold and Conyers give a joint speech, with the stage filling behind them with other principled Democrats who’ve finally faced that it is time to leave this party behind.
They’d have more power as an independent bloc, as their votes would have to be pursued for the Dems to maintain a majority.
…and pulled in 10 or 12 Senators and 30-50 Representatives, you might persuade me to join such a party.
But they won’t.
I’m always willing to be suprised, and put the idea out there … because I think that sometimes ideas like that percolate, and show up when least expected. The progressive caucus has been getting screwed for a while, and if Hoyer, Emmanuel, Reid, Schumer and Clinton act like I think they’ll act, they may finally push the liberals far enough for them to finally reach their breaking point.
I know pretty well about the sayings You can’t always get what you want and politics is the art of compromise, but here is the fear deal. If you dilute major core principles, can you ever be happy with yourself. If ones major core principles are similar to clear water and non-compatible rightwing ideology is similar to red water, can mixing them ever get you back to clear water?? It is a tough dilemma for many idealists.
So, I finally got home so I could take a quick look at the xpost.
About what I expected, especially from that worthless asshole DH (I feel that “dickhead” is an invitation to invective in return).
However, I would humbly request, Booman, though it’s probably too late, that you post an update that I never called him a “nigger”. The words were “house liberal”, and if I were to use another word besides those two I used I would use “beard”. I have great respect for much of what MB writes, but his function there is to put up an appearance that a center-right website is “liberal”. While I believe that he thinks he’s keeping a liberal perspective alive, that site is so poisoned that he serves only the same purpose that a pretty woman serves on David Dreier’s or Ken Mehlman’s arm.
Eeewwww. I just looked at the xpost too. Its been a long time since I waded in those angry orange waters. It just makes me want to say thanks Booman, Madman, Meteor Blades and all you tribbers for being able to have this discussion with passion AND respect.
that’s why I still post here.
I think MB was right to characterize your post that way. I don’t mean to cheap shot you, but I don’t think I did or MB did, either.
I defended you rather vigorously in that thread. The debate there kind of speaks for itself. I hope you feel, ultimately, that I was fair, and disemminated your views accurately.
Thanks for that. I did read some of it, but people obviously didn’t read what I wrote, and mcjoan and DH and the rest all kept repeating that I’d actually called him a nigger.
Seriously, though, I don’t know why you bother with them, or that place. You’re where I was w/ DH about two months before he and Armando insisted I be banned, and they’re plainly planning the same treatment for you if you don’t conform w/ their form of bullying and their way of thinking. That thread demonstrates perfectly why MB providing his work there is so damaging. It gives cover to odious people.
If they ban me that will be an entertaining event for all involved. I doubt it wiil happen. If it does, we will have to commemorate it.
I will continue to call DH out on his horrendous behavior as long as I am tolerated.
Very nicely done, BooMan.
I’ve said this before, but it bears repeating. We have two battles to fight, one after the other.
The first is a tactical battle — getting the Republicans out of power. We can speculate all we like about what people like Casey will do when they are elected, and there’s every possibility that we will be right in our speculation; but we know for a fact what people like Santorum will do if they are allowed to remain in power. The die is cast, the ballots have been printed, and we have two effective choices in our elections. The person with the (D) behind their name, or continued Republican domination of the government.
Believe it or not, that’s the easy part.
The second is the strategic battle that starts on November 8th. Once the Republicans are out of power, we have to shift our strategy from “get rid of the Republicans” to “get the candidates we want into office.” Personally, I am an advocate of infiltrating and subverting the Democratic Party, because only it has the money and the structure necessary for such an operation. We find the people we want to run for office in 2008, and 2010 and 2012, and start supporting them now with time and money to the point where the DLC/DCCC/DSCC types will have to fall in line behind our choices, rather than the other way around. Anything else is just bloviating and pissing into the wind and either maintains the status quo or worse, throws our efforts away into quixotic gestures that ultimately will at best get a glance and a murmur of “Well, wasn’t that special” as the status quo goes on around us.
I will freely admit that I can sit here and pound my keyboard knowing that I am represented by Patty Murray and Jim McDermott and I don’t have to worry about replacing Maria Cantwell until 2012. Yeah, and don’t you wish you could be represented by them too, without having to move to Seattle to make it happen? Well, you could be if you start looking for the next Murray and the next McDermott beginning November 8th. But if YOU want the change, YOU have to make it happen. If you leave it up to other people you are just begging for them to make these choices for you.
I’ve likened Howard Dean’s Fifty State Strategy to a full court press in basketball. But keep in mind that the full court press happens not only in space, but also in time. You harass the other team from the moment they touch the ball, not just when they are in position to score. Likewise, if we want candidates we can proudly vote for instead of using them to vote against the alternative, we have to treat politics as a 24/7/365 endeavor. You can bet the machine Republicans are doing it. If we want to create the country we hope to have we can do no less.
I’m with you on the 50-state strategy, but remember that Casey, Webb and the other former Republicans will now have lobbyist dollars in their war chests after they take office. They will have all of the advantages of incumbancy. They will fuck us over just as eagerly and just as often as the Nelsons and Lieberman.
Look at it this way. If you live in Pennsylvania or Virginia (in the cases you cite) and you don’t want Casey or Webb representing you, you have six years in which you can either find a candidate you want to represent you, start getting that candidate out in front of the public, maybe run them for a lower office where they get some visibility, have them go around the state meeting the voters, that sort of thing. You can write LTEs criticizing the incumbent’s votes and their stances on issues you think will resonate with the voting public.
Orrrrrr, you can run in circles screaming LOBBYIST MONEY! LOBBYIST MONEY! AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!! and let such worries defeat you before you start.
Nobody said people-powered politics was going to be easy. Nobody said taking this country back from the moneyed interests was going to be a walk in the park. If they said anything at all, they said it would be worth the effort.
Several years ago a guy named Al Lutz started a campaign he called “Promote Paul Pressler.” Basically, it was a petition drive directed at Michael Eisner and the other honchos at the Disney Corporation asking them to reward Pressler for his efforts as director of the division in charge of theme parks and marketing to promote him into a different position. In reality it would have been a thinly veiled effort to get him out of job where people saw him as the guy who was ruining Disneyland by turning it into a giant Disney Store and trying to squeeze profits out of it at the expense of the park “experience” (e.g. not painting as often as necessary), had it been veiled at all.
Now maybe a group of civic-minded Pennsylvanians could petition President Feingold to reward the junior senator from Pennsylvania for his hard work by appointing him to an ambassadorship. I’m sure they could come up with reasons why he would be a good ambassador to someplace like Saudi Arabia (“his understanding of women’s issues fits in well with local customs and beliefs”).
Just sayin’, y’know . . . sometimes politics is as much about creative thinking and marketing as it is about money and power. The people who designed the “kiss float” that helped defeat Lieberman in the primary were inspired, if you ask me. Or Claire McCaskill buying up a block of Rams tickets and giving them to inner-city kids so a Rams game wouldn’t be blacked out in St. Louis (cost: $4000, value: priceless).
Good discussion… I’m almost afraid to get my hopes up for November, though indications are looking better every day. But at this point, a Senate majority would have such tremendous potential, even if it included Casey and Lieberman, to put some brakes on this Administration… and in some cases, there are no ideal alternatives possible, at least not this cycle. (I’m still holding out hope for Lamont, though…) Without a Dem majority, there are NO hopes, based on what they’ve done so far (a lot less than they could have, even as a minority party).
Casey sticks in my craw. It’s because of candidates like Casey I toss any plea for donations from the national party in the trash, and support candidates rather than the party. But Casey isn’t on my ballot — I don’t envy progressives in PA their choice (or lack thereof), but that’s the choice there is…. this time. Whether that means hold your nose and get us one seat closer to majority, even if the candidate is horrible…. or vote principles by leaving it blank and hope the DLC takes notice, even if that risks another six years of Santorum…. Dems and other progressives in PA will just have to make their own choice on that one, and I don’t feel right condemning either approach right now. Whatever happens, we’ll deal somehow. My choice is easier — Cardin v. Steele. No contest. Cardin isn’t the most progressive guy out there, but he’s good enough, and he’s tons better than Steele.
For me, the real encouraging note in the long term isn’t the chances of Dem majorities in the House or Senate… (though I’m crossing my fingers, believe me) it’s what’s been happening at the state and local levels over the past two years, but especially this election. Progressives are winning. Grassroots support of local candidates is working. A slower revolution, bubbling up from the county and state house level, but a revolution nonetheless, and coming from within the Democratic Party — and sometimes winning even without official Party support. Here in Maryland, law professor Jamie Raskin challenged a thirty-year incombent State Senator who was fully backed by the state Dem party machine and tons of corporate money; he took NO corporate donations, ran a very grassroots campaign on a very progressive platform (in what is one of the most liberal districts in the county, where Democrats outnumber everyone else about 6-1)… and won by a 2-1 margin. The echo extends even into US House races… we came within a very small margin of putting a real progressive candidate in Al Wynn’s “safe” House seat (if nothing else, I’m sure he’ll think twice before voting with the Republicans against the caucus again for the next two years…).
If we get the majority in either, or both, sides of Congress, the priority will be damage control more than anything else–just to get any restraints at ALL on the current Administration’s insanity. If they accomplish that much, it’ll be progress. But the real progressive accomplishments are going to come from the lower levels of state governments and up. Howard Dean’s 50-state vision is working, but it’s a long-term growth project. Until that vision has time to mature… we will have a lot of candidates and elected officials in the party who aren’t anywhere near ideal. And we’ll just have to deal with them as best we can.
How to do that exactly is always a discussion worth having.
Three things I worry about IF Dems win this election:
This last one is mostly a concern about how corporate media will “frame” the situation to blame the dems. All of this could mean that Dems are weakened for 08.
Then, the other side of me says that the damage of ccontinuing Repug rule is so much more dangerous to us and the world, it would be worth it. Hence, my quandry.