So, what exactly are our troops told to do when they mingle with the natives in Iraq? Are they supposed to treat Iraqis respectfully, pass out candy to children and needed supplies to adults, and speedily address any complaints civilians bring to them regarding their own conduct or the conduct of other units in the immediate vicinity? Well, that may be the official line, but testimony in the murder trial of Marine Cpl. Trent D. Thomas is revealing that the actual instructions they receive from their commanders on how to deal with the locals required them, shall we say, to take a slightly different approach to interpersonal relations with the Iraqis (via the LA Times):
CAMP PENDLETON — A Marine corporal, testifying Saturday at the murder trial of a buddy, said that Marines in his unit began routinely beating Iraqis after being ordered by officers to “crank up the violence level.”
Cpl. Saul H. Lopezromo said Marines in his platoon, including the defendant, Cpl. Trent D. Thomas, were angry when officers criticized them as not being as tough as other Marine platoons.
“We’re all hard-chargers, we’re not there to mess around, so we took it as an insult,” Lopezromo said. […]
“We were told to crank up the violence level,” said Lopezromo, who testified for the defense. He indicated that during daily patrols the Marines became much rougher with Iraqis. Asked by a juror to explain, he said, “We beat people, sir.”
Lopezromo said he believed that officers knew of the beatings, and he suggested that the order to get tough soured him on the Marine Corps.
In layman’s terms, their butts were chewed out by their superiors for being a bunch of pussies, if you’ll pardon the expression. Marines aren’t supposed to be nice guys, despite the many counterinsurgency experts who tell us the best way to deal with civilian populations is to treat them at all times with the utmost respect in order to gain their trust and respect in return. No, Marines are supposed to be shit kickers, and they are also taught to follow orders. So, it’s not surprising that this was the end result of an order to crank up the violence:
Within weeks of allegedly being scolded, seven Marines and a Navy corpsman went out late one night to find and kill a suspected insurgent in the village of Hamandiya near the Abu Ghraib prison. The Marines and corpsman were from 2nd Platoon, Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 5th Regiment.
Lopezromo said their target was known to his neighbors as the “prince of jihad” and had been arrested several times, only to be released by the Iraqi legal system.
Unable to find their target, the Marines and corpsman dragged another man from his house, fatally shot him, and then planted an AK-47 assault rifle near the body to make it look like he had been killed in a shootout, according to court testimony. […]
Lopezromo, who was not part of the squad on its late-night mission, said he saw nothing wrong in what Thomas and the others did.
“I don’t see it as an execution, sir,” he told the judge. “I see it as killing the enemy.”
He added that Marines, in effect, consider all Iraqi men as part of the insurgency. “Because of the way they live, the clans, they’re all in it together,” he said. […]
Prosecution witnesses testified that Thomas shot the 52-year-old Iraq at point-blank range after he had already been shot by other Marines and was lying on the ground.
Lopezromo said a procedure called “dead-checking” was routine. If Marines entered a house where a man was wounded, instead of checking to see whether he needed medical aid, they shot him to make sure he was dead, he testified.
“If somebody is worth shooting once, they’re worth shooting twice,” he said.
You think the “surge” is going to magically convert all the ill feelings of ordinary Iraqis, all the anger and hatred that they haven built up over the last 4 years as a direct result result of such conduct by these Marines and other US troops stationed there into support for our occupation by the time General Petraeus reports to Congress in September? By December? By the end of the Bush administration?
Yeah, me neither.
well, Steven, if they are Sunni, then, it is PC to do this according to this adm and the Shite crew. If it is a Shite man, this it is PC to do it according to the adm and the Sunni crew. According to this Marine Corps leadership it is good to do it to save their reputation as being tough and rough…Is this what I hear being said over and over. I have said even when I was a member over on the Orange, the leadership is what is is lacking in this war. I will. and have not ever, changed my opinion. It is such a crime! I am sure many will have lots to answer for in the years to come. I want to see them answer for this. My God, a hospital corpsman!!! what ever happened to his ethical and major oath he took???!!! I am so ashamed of them all..
This is a direct result of the failure of the Bushies to imagine the insurgency when they created their new reality by invading Iraq. That failure, combined with the failure of our military commanders to institute a less lethal, more Iraqi friendly occupation stratgy, the lack of counterinsurgency training for our troops, the rpivatisation of the war which unleashed hordes of gun happy mercs on the Iraqis, the Shi’ite death squads that Negroponte and Elliot Abrams helped create, and the extended tours of duty with no extended down time during or between deployments.
When you hand your government over to criminals they commit crimes.
(“When you hand your government over to criminals they commit crimes.”)
That is what the answer is truly! War is war. What we do in that war will always be the dilemma of the century. Criminals took us to war and we became like them…what a real sad thing.
I think you are right. There is nothing wrong with pride in service. . .except that when it is encouraged and okay to beat and kill any male Iraqi because they are male Iraqis we already know what that does to the souls of these young people. Yes, just like those who have suffered these past 30 years since Nam. . .we will have thousands of them unable to assimilate back into society, just as the VN vets have been unable. And of course they will not get the support and treatment they disparately need and are entitled to. They are being discharged from the military now with PTSD being labeled a Pre-existing mental disorder. No funds, no medical help, nothing.
This is how our country treats its Vets, it continues to throw them on the trash heap after they have used them up.
I served during VN, as you did. You know how they treat these soldiers they are so vocally proud of and privately despise enough to give them the least possible support and help they can get away with. Unfortunately, the American people either aren’t aware of this, or don’t want to be aware of theis, or just don’t care. The lies about the wonderful treatment they receive when they return home go on and on and on. It is disgusting to me.
I know those in the system that intend and desire to give them the best care possible are not to blame, but they are consistently underfunded and the “decision makers” at the top rule how the system will be operated and used.
And then all these “tough Marines” are going to come home, someday,and they are supposed to transform into peace loving, nice guys who will handle stressful or confrontational exchanges with others by . . .what? Walking away if it gets out of control? Using well honed verbal skills to diffuse the situation? Who is the military trying to kid? And what do we suppose will happen in our own society with all these trained and brain washed young men (women as well I suppose)?
Where is the magic potion that will fix this?
I doubt that it exists or ever will.
It’s the military’s job to turn these young people into killers. They do it extremely well. Unfortunately they have no program to train them back into regular people again.
We already know the answer to that question. The government will pretend the problem of Iraq vets with PTSD doesn’t exist, won’t fund treatment and the people we sent to Iraq, and their families, will continue to bear the cost of Bush’s folly for decades to come.
…but Steven, you ahve to go to boot camp for the MC to really understand how they erase all the learnings of the family or the community to make a marine a marine….:o) I really have got to say it is hard to judge others until you walk a mile in their shoes. These men are they being judged for following orders or what. Shall we take the men responsible to the court system or to the Hague? I have to tell you that I would not be the best person on that jury. I hold many responsible for mishandling of situations. Everyone has a superior person ordering them to do things. It is up to the lower echelon to decide what they will or will not do…I suggest we get the hell out of dodge and soon if we are to allow our nation to heal..if it ever does.
Legally, they may be culpable. Morally what they did is indefensible. Psychologically, however, this is what they were programmed to become. Furthermore, they were trained to be an soldiers fighting a conventional war, army vs. army. They were ill prepared to fight an insurgency. So I have a great deal of sympathy for their situation. Most of us, placed in their shoes would have done the same things, or looked the other way. The Milgram experiments prove that the ability to resist authority, even in a situation where the authority is weak, is extremely difficult to overcome among college students. How much harder is it to overcome for a soldier trained in the military, where to defy orders carries real consequences?
No, my greatest anger and moral outrage is reserved for the commanders, from Bush on down, who placed these men and women in a no win situation, failed to recognize their own failures of leadership, and then seek to place all of the blame for the atrocities that result on the lower ranks. I do not condone what these Marines did, but I do understand it, and I recognize that in their shoes I likely would have done no better than they did. That is why war should always, always be a last resort, not the first option to be considered.
At the beginning of this particular war, I heard it said by the Brits that the American army or what ever, is not equipped to fight house to house…..as they are doing now. They are not good at this, so said the Brits, as if they knew how to do it better. They called it urban warfare. I happen to agree with the Brits on that level, to a degree, anyhow.
Now as to the ptsd thing, many can suffer from this symptom…. families, friends support systems of the military.(O can identify on two accounts on this one) It is just that way, as I see it. Now they have criminals becoming inducted into the military to fight. What the hell!!!???? It is just making it worse that worse. I guess I just do not understand the reasoning of it all…I suppose I am disillusioned about it all. I happen to respect you and others toooooo much to do that sort of thing. BTW, I have not told you all lately just how much I do love and respect you all!!!! I really do….hugs
I am not arguing with anyone, I am just stating my view’s on this one. I can’t argue without loosing it in one way or the other!
And I’m not arguing with you either. This insanity in Iraq is just so frustrating and demoralizing for anyone who uses their brain the least little bit.
I agree with you Shirl; however, I really think the MC expects the enlisted and officer corps to stay in and give the MC it’s credit and honored overlook/creed on what it is…but then again I could be wrong. Not that I say it is wrong or right. I talk to the marines of yesteryear and it never changes..always gung ho and honor, etc. Nothing wrong I suppose about this but I am seriously worried that they will be come as troubled as we have from VN era. What do you think??
See “Transformers” for the latest orgy of ‘good’ sanitized, bloodless violence.
would you please describe more specifically what you are hinting at…just for clarification.
There’s an excellent article at la.indymedia.org on Transformers, but I can’t seem to get access to it right now. One point it made is that one of the reasons the military likes and gave so much cheap assistance ot Bay’s movie is that it depicts violence without the squeamish to horrific side, no spouting blood, splattering brain matter or worse. This is what is considered appropriate for American children and adolescents: representations of clean, cool and successful violence. And it’s very popular with military recruiters’ core propects, teens.
I also found this from American Prospect, emphasis added:
http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/tapped_archive?month=07&year=2007&base_name=post_4196
.
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."
.
(Village Voice) November 2004 – Just as I thought I was adjusting to the video carnage, NBC correspondent Kevin Sites, embedded with U.S. forces in Falluja, gave us last week’s shocker: the video of a Marine standing over a wounded, apparently unarmed Arab sprawled on the floor of a mosque and executing him with a gunshot to the head.
It brought back memories of the April 9 episode and others I witnessed in Iraq. Yet, watching this on TV, I felt the same outrage many others have expressed. American soldiers, we like to believe, don’t shoot unarmed people. Not only is this morally repugnant, but execution of wounded, unarmed combatants violates Article Three of the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War, which states in part that “persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely.”
Even to those unfamiliar with the Geneva Conventions, it seems obvious from the mosque video that a war crime was committed. The response from the administration and military officials has been unusually swift. Ambassador to Iraq John Negroponte conveyed his regrets to Prime Minister Ayad Allawi and vowed that “the individual in question will be dealt with.” The Marine in the video, whose name has been withheld, was pulled from duty, and his commanders issued a statement promising to investigate what they called “an allegation of the unlawful use of force in the death of an enemy combatant.” Lieutenant General John F. Sattler, commander of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force in Iraq, added in an interview, “We follow the law of armed conflict and hold ourselves to a high standard of accountability.”
One thing military officials are not saying is that the behavior of the Marine in the video closely conforms to training that is fairly standard in some units. Marines call executing wounded combatants “dead-checking.”
In pockets of Fallujah, US troops still face harsh battles
● Daily Kos – Fallujah: Napalm By Any Other Name ◊ by Avila
Sun Nov 21, 2004 at 12:29:37 AM PDT
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."
exactly, Oui. This is what I was getting to. I am not for killing, after all, I am in the profession of saving lives not taking them…after all I took seriously the oath I took many years ago as a hospital corpsman, and again as a registered nurse. I SUPPOSE THAT IS WHERE I PART THE WAYS OF THE REGULAR KILLING MACHINE. Sorry for yelling…;o) I know that if I had someone threatening my life, of which I have done to me, I would take several things into consideration. I might even kill that person, but to cold bloodedly kill someone is not my area of feeling good about myself. Our military is broken in many ways. Anyhow that is how I feel about it.
back to mind set of the crusades c. 1209:
Papal Legate to the Crusaders, Arnaud-Amaury, the Abbot Citeaux: “Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet.”
(“Kill them all.
Allah will know his own.”)
l’m afraid these actions are have created a problem that will be with us for a very long time.
lTMF’sA
Dada, I believe you are on to something here…remember when we went into Afghanistan, the pResident wanted to name it after the crusade, and then it got quickly renamed so as to be PC not to make more hate into this situation…what a horrible laugh it was….especially for this adm….I detest them so much! They ahve just torn the world into many pieces and can not be put back together unless we get a leader that is up to the job, anyhow.
.
Our generation should
realize that the Crusaders
saved us from a bleak
and gory fate of being
subjugated by the
murderous and beastlike
Muslims. We owe the
Crusaders our gratitude
and need to take
inspiration from their
spirit, grit, determination
and ruthless bravery
for completing their
unfinished task. It is no
wonder that in a
spontaneous expression
of his mindset President
Bush called the war on
Terror – “a Crusade”.
… worshiping together in Cordoba, Spain.
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."
that is one scary site…..un-fucking-believable that supposedly educated people embrace that ideology.
lTMF’sA…ya think