An interesting debate has opened up over the proper strategy for the Senate to take on the immigration reform bill. One camp thinks that they should have a goal of winning at least seventy votes. Harry Reid thinks that two or three Democrats are going to vote against the bill no matter what is in it. But he thinks he has 52 solid votes in his caucus and he thinks there are at least 8 Republicans who will be willing to support the bill. In other words, there appear to be enough votes to pass the 60 vote barrier created by the filibuster. However, that doesn’t mean that the current bill has a prayer of passing the House. If only eight Republican senators support reform that means that 37 will have opposed it. That’s not the kind of ratio that will make it okay for most House Republicans to support the bill. A ratio of 18:27 is far better.
Pro-immigration groups seem to think that the best strategy is to pass the best possible bill in the Senate and use it as a negotiating ploy against whatever the House produces. But that assumes that the House will produce something rather than nothing at all. Perhaps the only way that the House can pass something is if the Senate Republicans are basically split on the merits rather than more than 4-to-1 opposed.
John Boehner would clearly like to see the Senate pass a bill with broad Republican support. He knows that he will probably have to violate the Hastert Rule at least once and perhaps twice to turn immigration reform into law. And he doesn’t want to have to do it without significant support within his caucus and significant cover from helpful Republican senators.
The Hastert Rule is named after former Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert of Illinois. He would not allow votes on bills that did not have the support of the majority of the Republican Caucus. Boehner has largely adhered to that standard, but he has broken the Hastert Rule a couple of times already this year, and there’s a limit to how many times he can get away with doing it.
In the case of immigration reform, it’s possible that the House will pass a bill that has the support of the majority of Republicans, but once that bill is melded with the Senate version, it is unlikely that a majority of House Republicans will still support it. So, it would appear at a minimum that Boehner will have to break the rule to assure final passage.
Making concessions to reach 70 Senate votes will improve the odds that the House will produce a bill and it will make Boehner’s life much easier and his job more secure. But there’s a point at which the compromises will cost Democratic support and the support of pro-immigration groups.
Part of this debate is really about whether it is better to make concessions now or to make them later. But anyone who knows anything about the House Republicans should realize that they are insane and incompetent and ill-willed and contemptible. There is no right answer. Making concessions to terrorists just encourages more bad behavior, but we need them to produce something, anything, to keep the process moving forward.
What to do?
What about the argument that not all the House Republicans are crazy, and there’s a substantial chunk of them that do support immigration reform but just are afraid to vote for it? If true does that decrease the threat to Boehner’s speakership, i.e. they wont revolt if he breaks the Hastert rule even if they vote no on it? And does that make it easier for him to pass a good bill with mostly Dem votes?
The bill is an absolute fucking disaster. It is going to destroy the high-tech market in the US for IT/STEM, and we have NO SHORTAGE whatsoever.
it is an absolute disaster for low wage workers. It is a total disaster for blue collar voters, who understand very very clearly that the Democratic Party has chosen to support illegals over our own citizens.
It is a disaster for US college kids.
It is a disaster for anyone over the age of 35 in the US.
Who SPECIFICALLY in the US as a US CITIZEN does this fucking disaster help? Not a single person.
The Democrats think that we are gaining the hispanic vote. We may get it for 2-3 years, at the expense of the black vote, the student vote, and the STEM/IT/high tech vote.
This bill creates UNLIMITED green cards. Every single one of those is a job that should be going to a US kid, not a foreign kid. Let them wait in line and get in legally, not steal jobs from American citizens.
A fucking disaster.
I am willing to entertain your serious objections to the Senate immigration reform bill but I am going to insist that you back your alarmist statements with sources.
Sure:
On the H-1B:
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b.html
Other H-1B:
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1bquotes.html
Green card disaster:
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/Archive/GreenCardTrojanHorse.txt
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/Archive/VisasShutOutAmericans.txt
H-1B provisions:
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/Archive/H1BPolitics.txt
Age and H-1B:
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/Archive/Older.txt
The bill is a disaster.
And yes, much of this is from Norm Matloff. Like myself, he is strongly pro-immigrant. He is married to a person of Chinese origin.
The H-1B, Green card, and most of the non-illegal portions of the S744 are disasters, however. Expanding the pool of H-1bs creates a pool of permanent low-wage, low skilled, temporary workers, which is wonderful for large corporations, and simply dreadful for American IT workers. Yes, American IT workers have had to train their replacements.
As we employ more and more foreign low-skilled cheap labor, there is less opportunity for US IT workers. There is less innovation opportunity for just fooling around, for “shade tree programming”. This is going to have the same impact that the loss of US manufacturing has had on US innovation. There is less innovation because there are fewer people who are skilled with their hands. They have all been off-shored. Same with coding and IT.
I couldn’t agree with you more and I think it’s only fair that the proponents of this immigration bill provide references supporting THEIR argument.
The myths about the bill are staggering:
Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics
(STEM) Our kids are spending a lot of money on these degrees. Then are told to take a hike.
This is our thinking and it hurts our youth. I see it in IT everyday. I even stereotype in my mind.
Orrin Hatch is a soulless idiot. Throwing that crap in for his minions to get it passed. Instead of including money to investigate visa overstays maybe?
Instead of a devils compromise why can’t the repuglicans understand there are a lot of families in great fear of being split because a child is a citizen and the parents are not.
Its not about H-1B, Hatch you soulless bastard.
There are always 2 periods in a high-tech business:
Of course, today even the H-1B is too expensive. In a lot of places, the J-1 is used. They don’t have to pay SS, unemployment, medicare for J-1. Yes, the US government spends millions on the J-1 program to run the program, gives employers TAX BREAKS to employ people in the jobs, and makes it possible to maintain these jobs as permanent temporary jobs.
The job visa programs (J-1, H-1B, L-1, O-1, F-1, B-1) are all swindles on American workers, and operate to entirely undercut the wage scale, employee availability, and working conditions for American workers.
And, yes, Americans DO have a right to be first in line in their own country for jobs. Every country in the world except the US does this. Why do we cut the throats of our own children by not using a US FIRST system?
Followup to 2) above: Gates became an H-1B proponent AFTER the stock went public. Zuckerberg is now an H-1B proponent, although he built the entire FB on stock option coders.
The desire for cheap crappy labor is without limit. And the term crappy is not just random. Many of these H-1B houses DELIBERATELY choose second-raters, since they are cheaper and more desperate for jobs.
J-1 is where kids are brought from eastern Europe and Russia to staff fast food and factories?
I’m thinking about McDonalds and Hershey foods that were in the news recently for pushing their J-1s to the breaking point.
Diplomacy in the age of the corporations.
The J-1 is used to bring in 500,000 visa users PER YEAR. 500,000.
Many are PHYSICIANS, STEM workers, etc.
And they do not pay SS taxes, medicare, unemployment. Employers can save a LOT of money by not paying these taxes.
For an eye-opening website, look at
http://www.jobofer.org/taxes/
From the website (the website is housed in Russia, BTW):
We pay millions of dollars to run this program. The program brings in hundreds of thousands of workers who displace US workers and allow the employer to get tax breaks.
If this doesn’t make you made as hell, you are a total idiot.
From the US government J-1 site:
Programs
Au Pair
Camp Counselor
College and University Student
Government Visitor
Intern
International Visitor
Physician
Professor and Research Scholar
Secondary School Student
Short-Term Scholar
Specialist
Summer Work Travel
Teacher
Trainee
The J-1 is not merely to hire McDonald’s workers in Massachusetts in from Malaysia, or summer slaves at Hershey’s. Physicians, scholars, teachers, etc are all brought in under this program.
500,000 per year.
Isn’t that the truth! Their advantage, if it really is an advantage, is dirt cheap hourly rate and a willingness to work long hours off the books (i.e. free).
And before I’m accused of xenophobia let me just state that, like you, I’ve worked with many foreign programmers and have been quite friendly with most. I’m a friendly guy and always give the benefit of a doubt to co-workers. A very few have been top-notch. Most have been there because Engineering was a way out of their grinding third world existence. The Chinese and Indian (and Russian) governments gave them free educations, often in the USA. I have no quarrel with 99% of them and have mentored many. By mentor, I don’t mean an assignment. I mean they came to me for help including how to cope with American society and other details of their private lives. One Chinese friend that I last worked with fifteen years ago still contacts me periodically to take me out to lunch and a chat. He had a hard time with INS because he had joined the Communist Party as a youth because his father (a small businessman before the Revolution) had been convicted of counter-revolutionary activities and he had to “prove” his loyalty. He was eternally grateful for the help I gave him.
Individual stories like that don’t really change the fact that most foreign IT workers are “cookbook” programmers and as a class are our competitors. It’s like a union man can like a scab as an individual, maybe most individuals, but as a class they are his enemies.
The routine evaluations of school systems put Indian and Chinese on the bottom. Singapore and Japan do better.
But the methods in those countries are “drill and kill”. Repetitive chanting of stuff, etc. There is pervasive cheating in Indian schools.
My concern is that many get here by taking the GRE and TOEFL in their home countries. The TOEFL is supposed to screen out those who cannot speak English. It is clearly not doing the jobs. And the GRE, taken under the Indian security conditions? What a joke.
“Illegals?” Your diction is telling. As is your OVERUSE of caps lock.
The advice on abortion is “you don’t like abortion, don’t have one”
You don’t like the term “illegals”? Don’t use it.
It’s the fact that you used it in your comment that gives away your bias and helps others to read between the lines of your comment.
Tell me, what are you reading? I do not support the current illegal support movement. I support living wage for Americans. I support the ability of skilled trades blue collar workers to make a decent wage.
I do not support Grover Norquist. You apparently do. I do not support Bob Perry, the Texas homebuilder who brought in thousands of illegals to build cheap poorly built houses in Texas, and used the profits to found the Swift Boat veterans. You apparently do.
When you are supporting the same approach that Bob Perry and Grover Norquist are supporting, what kind of policy is that? Not a Democratic or progressive one.
Cheap labor is not a progressive policy. Why do you support it?
I’m against illegals, too. That’s why I want to turn them into legals.
War against tech workers.
Make no mistake factory workers and laborers are not the only ones the 2% wants to destroy. They will abuse this bill under the guise of fairness.
Orrin Hatch’s amendments I see why.
‘I support the ability of skilled trades blue collar workers to make a decent wage’.
‘…who brought in thousands of illegals to build cheap poorly build houses..’
You don’t know shit. STFU up about my industry until you educate yourself. You’re a walking example of ‘ignorance is our chief enemy and oppressor’.
I’ve worked on houses where there have been 20+ workers and I have been the only gringo there. I don’t need anybody to tell me why it happened, and how. I saw happen with my own eyes.
The stupid….it burns.
.
Actually, your advice is more like, “don’t like the term ‘faggot”? Don’t use it.”
I suspect you have a point with the H1-B thing (though the rest sounds like alarmist nonsense), but it’s hard to see past the spittle-flecked posts. If your goal is to sway opinions, you’re not doing yourself any favors. (If it’s simply to express yourself, of course, carry on!)
You don’t like the term “illegals”?
I love the term “illegals.”
It makes it entirely obvious when someone’s entire argument can be safely ignored.
Petty nitpicking the guy’s spelling and writing style is telling as well. You don’t have an intellectual argument.
Oh, the politically correct notion that “illegal” is the new “nigger” is one that I do not accept.
The left has many irrational beliefs about hispanics, and stereotypes abound. There is this notion that “hispanics” are on the side of Democrats. RIGHT NOW they are. That’s because we are doing what they want. After legalization? I strongly doubt it. Many hispanics (note, I am not stereotyping by saying “hispanic”) are strong catholics, and do not support gay marriage or anything in that line.
It’s just a way to end an argument.
Agree that the use of the term “illegals” should probably not be used. It’s become too established as a code-word for Latinos crossing into the US from our southern border and Americans have never liked anything better than to vilify new darker skinned immigrants even back in the day when documents weren’t required.
However, in fairness to dataguy, he didn’t use that term in the narrow sense, but in the broadest sense to include all those that don’t have the legal right to live and work in this country. All those in violation of various visas.
If we were honest, we appreciate all those undocumented workers that harvest, process, and slaughter our food, clean our offices and hotel rooms, etc. Because we don’t “grow our own” for those types of jobs. Nor has any immigrant family after the first generation. So another round of immigrants from poor countries is required. And it always gets turned into a nasty and racist political battle.
What is missing from dataguy’s critique is that higher education in the US is big business. Many of those institutions thrive on foreign students and those students in turn one immigrant pipeline into this country. I’d take a million low education and low-skilled Mexican and Central American immigrants over one like this guy.
With you all the way. Shut the damned door for decades. Deport most illegals. No citizenship and no vote, ever, for any amnestied illegal.
Sometimes Democrats are their own worst enemy, why not just go for 60 votes and bring in line every Democratic Senator. If this bill fails because the Democrats cannot vote the party line, it will become President’s Obama biggest failure of his second term.
Because, President Obama is still deporting persons at record numbers and cannot get Immigration Reform passed– the fallout within the Latino will be shocking.
First, “bring every Democratic Senator in line” is not a “just” task. Getting every Democratic Senator to all into line is virtually impossible.
Second, those Democrats who have been willing to buck President Obama in the Senate, throughout his term, do not give a damn whether they are dealing him a setback. From the ACA opponents to the defectors on cap and trade, red-state Democratic Senators benefit from opposing Obama, among their own constituents.
Third, the 2012 Presidential election should have put to bed the notion that the record deportations are going to produce a backlash among Latino voters. As it turns out, such voters can tell the difference between the party that is working to reform the system and the party that wants further crackdowns.
Republicans managed to do it during the Bush years. Either your with us or against us.
The only way this will pass is if large businesses want it to pass. In that case they’ll twist enough GOP arms in the Senate to get past the 60 threshold then tell the House leadership to get it through some way. That will mean breaking the Hassert rule again because with the Tea Party in charge of most GOP house districts that is the only possible method they have.
Of course, that means that the bill will, like HAMP, and ACA, and every other bill that has passed in recent decades, be more for business than for the people it is allegedly serving. Data guy mentions the tech industry, already awash in H1B visas when there is no shortage of workers – that’s just one example.
Honestly, while I want to help the people currently labeled as illegal immigrants I suspect that the best overall solution here is to get nothing done and blame the GOP. Because any bipartisan solution is going to be shit for everyone.
EXACTLY, other than the fact that president Obama is in favor of this bill most here can not tell you why they’re in favor of flooding the low wage market with undocumented workers.
I agree with this. Not that I agree with dataguy about immigration (tho I do agree about h1b1), but the bill probably isn’t going to be worth supporting. And I mean from a pathway to citizenship perspective. I don’t even want a pathway, I want them made citizens now.
You have more hope of the doldrums in Congress ending than I do.
I see the end of the fiscal year being the only external event that could force movement in the House. Members of Congress still have to bring home the bacon no matter how much the GOP has to disguise it.
Sentiment was changing, but now it seems to have snapped back. And background checks are rapidly becoming a dead issue. So immigration doesn’t look like it’s going anywhere.
Slamming through some appointments, even killing the filibuster (at least on appointments to do it) is about the only move that could possibly get some momentum again IMO. And that is apparently too risky for too many Senate Democrats.
And it seems that David Pryor has decided to commit political suicide in order to preserve his NRA rating. I think folks might just elect a real Republican to replace him next year. Guess he’s got his post-Congress cash-in all lined up. So he’s going to be real mavericky on anything like immigration.
The Senate seems fairly optmistic that they can pass something on immigration. Maybe they won’t, but it is looking pretty good with McConnell sounding supportive. But part of this is the Senate’s desire to pass the buck to the House. So, it really does matter whether the Senate merely passes the buck or whether there is broad support.
Isn’t this just their favorite dance, though? They sound supportive. If only we’ll change one or two things. So we do. Well, three or four things. So we do. Okay, five things. So we do.
Finally we arrive at a Republican-style bill that is better than the status quo, but not by much.
And we push like crazy for that bill, whipping up our passion and expending our political capital for a moderate-Republican-style policy (which not incidentally defines the whole Democratic Party, including activists, rightward) and the rump of the right still opposes it.
Maybe we finally claim a victory, by passing that bill. Maybe not.
that’s kinda where we are.
You’re not supposed to agree with me!
Now I’m depressed.
Isn’t this just their favorite dance, though? They sound supportive. If only we’ll change one or two things. So we do. Well, three or four things. So we do. Okay, five things. So we do.
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fuck 60 votes.
the immigration community wants this to pass – get Republican votes…at least 15 of them.
The Dems shouldn’t all have to vote for this….let 45 vote for it….get 15-20 GOPers…and if you can’t…not my problem.
Who’s problem is it, then?
Politically, I mean. If Democrats vote for the bill 45-8, and 12 Republicans vote to break the filibuster, the bill doesn’t get cloture…and then?
Who is the “immigration community” and why should we care what they want? I’m not against immigration but there clearly should be a preference for those immigrants that bring skills and expertise that we are in need of. There is no shortage of struggling, unskilled workers in this country and there is no justification for granting amnesty for those that fall into that category.
It’s precisely those with the so-called skills and expertise that are alleged to be in short supply that are currently the most abused aspect of current policies by employers.
Nobody seriously addresses the issue of what is considered unskilled immigrant laborers doing the meanest and hardest work.
What to do?
Use immigration as an issue to hammer the Republicans between now and November 2014, and then see what the next House looks like. Maybe it will be Democratic, or maybe it will have a smaller Republican majority that just became more motivated to put immigration issues behind them.
The Senate legislative strategy should be whatever will be most helpful for that plan.