I don’t want to be overly cynical about this but I do try to be pragmatic. When I imagine living in a society where women (including lesbians) are married off without their consent and then expected to have sex with a stranger and raise his children, having the option to join a nunnery begins to look like a real act of societal tolerance and mercy. The exact same thing can be said about men, who have traditionally had the option to take a vow of celibacy and join the priesthood. Perhaps a society needs its religious scholars and instructors, but it also needs safe places for the square pegs that don’t fit the established mold. It seems to me that the religious orders have traditionally been imperfect answers to both needs.
Now, when it comes to monogamy, maybe you think it’s the natural order of things and what God wants for his children. But it’s a timeless truism that you invite violence when you seek to have sexual relations with a woman who is already claimed by another man. Consider the simple job of policing a primitive society of people when you have no police force or prisons or restraining orders. It seems like a practical solution is to give a man the right to one woman, to strongly prohibit adultery (and murder) so that transgressions can be handled in a legal kind of way, and you can thereby hope to have some semblance of peace.
I don’t mean to suggest that we ought to order our society the way it was ordered when we were much less civilized, but when Noah Feldman talks about his right to be a polygamist, he’s trying to operate entirely on a theoretical plane of rights. So, when he finally gets around to asking if the state has a compelling interest in promoting monogamy and discouraging polygamy, he doesn’t even touch on the issue of male violence. We’re civilized, but I doubt that we’re that civilized.
We’re certainly dealing with some anachronisms here. For example, even in polygamist cultures, there’s always been a recognition that a man should not have more wives than he can provide for. That’s the kind of consideration that led the authors of Deuteronomy to demand that a man marry his brother’s widow. These kinds of things seem necessary when women don’t work outside the home and you have no welfare state.
In our present society, marriage is a consensual matter and an entirely optional one. It isn’t actually necessary anymore. But that doesn’t mean that we’ve entirely transcended human nature. There are still a host of reasons why our society benefits when people form monogamous units, including the increased likelihood that children are raised by both parents, the avoidance of the transmittal of sexual diseases, the reduction of how many families need government assistance, and (yes) a reduction in male violence.
Finally, if we look around the world and in the history books, polygamy and women’s rights do not go together. If we’re talking about a situation where women are completely autonomous agents who enter into these plural marriages voluntarily, that may seem almost like an advance in rights. After all, they’d be free to have multiple husbands. Somehow, it never works out like that, as we can see in the still-surviving polygamist outposts in our own country.
However you look at it, I don’t think you can productively analyze the merits of anti-polymany laws without reference to more than the implications of some recent Supreme Court cases and an appeal to fundamental rights. We’re people who are trying to live together in societies. Our laws and customs reflect that, even when they become less and less ideally suited to the times.
We’re friends with a one woman, two-man marriage. They all adopted each other’s kids and function as a family unit. Don’t know how they do it but they do it.
I’m sure that all sorts of romantic groupings are possible with or without the consent of Heaven.
Slow news day, eh?
IMO the Supreme Court will eventually find anti-polygamy laws unconstitutional. It seems pretty obvious that if gays can marry, so can multiples of consenting adults.
However, the problems that have historically resulted from polygamy were, and are, not from consenting adults, but from the trading of females children between men that hold authority in communities. Rape, kidnapping, etc.
So those laws would need to be enforced vigorously. But the populations that would be most likely to ‘go multiple’, are not known for enforcing those laws (ahem, Mormons).
.
And the expulsion of young males.
Both of these actions occurred within the context of closed communities where a specific religious cult of personality held sway and their polygamous marriages were illegal. That is the root of the coercive elements of the community.
This is akin to saying that smoking marijuana produces crime, because drug dealers and smugglers are involved.
An honest Supreme Court would certainly hold that anti-polygamy laws are indeed unconstitutional under the 14th Amendment.
Hell, they were unconstitutional when they were enacted, and many of them were specifically passed to discriminate against Mormons.
There is a display at the Yuma Prison state museum in Arizona about the great-grandfather of current senator Jeff Flake who was sent to prison for polygamy. This was in the late 1800’s IIRC.
(and it wasn’t only mormons who were sent there for crimes like this, many of the men and women who ended up in the prison were sent there for crimes like ‘adultery’ and ‘miscegenation’)
Deuteronomy marrying brother’s widow is about progeny not about supporting the widow
Ostensibly, but the ten commandments, for example, are ostensibly one thing, and pragmatically quite another.
what’s your basis for this claim?
what claim?
That a priestly caste in ancient times devised rules to keep order and then proclaimed them to derive from God?
well, it’s much more complicated than a priestly caste .. devised rules since they took shape over millenia with input from many groups, Hammurabi, for example was military and political, and definitely not priestly, but I guess for a more accurate phrasing I’d distinguish origins of a precept and impact, which shifts over time rather than ostensibly and pragmatically. for the precept itself you are writing about the origins of the precept which those practicing it may not even know, but origin is pertinent for understanding how it came into the code, interpretation – interpretation is hermeneutical problem, such as SCOTUS engages in, and then [practical] impact
Maybe it was Olsen’s discussion of marriage equality and polygamy – since so many were saying the next step is polygamy – where he made the point that in our society in multiple spouse situations equality of rights and privileges cannot be maintained, but I forget what his argument was, though certainly persuaded me
Tomato, tomato.
I guess you’re saying functionally the widow receives support by the marriage – yes I suppose so. what’s your point? and what about the 10 commandments? I have all the standard commentaries sitting right here next to me in case – anchor, otl, hermeneia, jps you name it
the arguments against polygamy in the US, iirc, go to equality; didn’t we talk about this a couple years ago.
Your heart is in the right place, Booman…it always is…but once again you have some things truly backwards.
You write:
It’s not the “laws and customs” that are at fault here…not the historical customs, anyway, and not the existing laws that were enacted to enforce those customs. The problem lies in the sea change in societal mores that has been caused by a corporate-owned and operated cultural machine that is totally out of control. Say what you will about organized religion, at its root it was…and still is elsewhere…a force that regulated the culture of given societies so that those cultures would not…could not…promote habitual violation of the moral codes upon which those religions had originally been founded. In the so-called “modern world”…that is, the capitalist world in its current vulture-like state and also a good part of the rest of the world (Russia and China to be precise, and also various other countries that seem to now exist in a kind of semi-anarchic chaos.)…those limits have been abolished. The government itself is owned by the same forces that drive the cultural system, so no boundaries are set by the government either.
Result?
Look around.
Children growing up with no morality other than the “Get mine. Now!!!” version? They grow up vicious. Check out Boko Haram and the gangland mentality of various domestic and South/Central American gangs and cartels if you doubt that. “The Lord Of The Flies” pertains. Devolved versions of great religions have the same general effect, only they are societally more well organized and thus larger and even more dangerous.
Solutions? I have none other than this one…try to at least understand what is happening and tell others about it. We need some kind of morally correct movement in the U.S. and we need it soon or else the system is going to fail and fail mightily. That is why I am supporting Bernie Sanders over HRC. She talks a good gamed but on the evidence of her entire career…and that of her husband as well, on many levels…it is only talk. Mouth deep at best. When she says what she really means to the kinds of people who truly own her she has to use a white noise sound blocker so that the peons in the street can’t hear what she is saying. That machine was physical but she has a soft machine in action, too. Bet on it. Nothing comes out of her mouth that wasn’t heavily redacted days earlier. Bet on that as well. You can almost see the heavy black lines behind her eyes as she speaks. (Bill’s doesn’t work as well, however. Not anymore it doesn’t. Too many meds, I think.)
None of this holds true for Bernie Sanders. He is a (mostly) honorable man, and in the context of our political system as it stands today, that is a near-miracle.
Later…
AG
P.S. My new Sanders slogan?
Sure.
Yup.
Sheesh, I’d forgotten people still talked like this.
Meanwhile, back in the actual world, Booman is 100% right. Religious codes such as the Ten Commandments developed for many reasons, but chief among them was to keep the peace. And for all our advances (or
“corruption by the “corporate culture” or whatever other meaningless cant one wants to throw out), human nature has been pretty constant, for better or ill. And romantic as well as sexual jealousy has not been scrubbed from our DNA, and isn’t likely to be anytime soon.
No matter how many “corporate whores” populate the world you live on.
but chief among them was to keep the
peace.existing power structure intact.I live in the “actual world,” jsrtheta. One of them, at any rate. Several of them, to be perfectly accurate. I apparently don’t live in yours, though. I haven’t heard anyone say “Sheesh” for so long I’d forgotten people still talked like that.
My world(s)?
New York City-centric for almost 50 years. You know, the place where you can run into people who “talk like this” on subways, in working class bars and at the local coffee hangout. I just spent 30 minutes on a subway train listening to a 70-ish black man who looked like he’d worked w/his hands all of his life…beautiful hands, big, strong, callused and fluent… talk to a perfect stranger about the relative merits of Isaac Stern and Jascha Heifetz as violinists and how much better Carnegie Hall sounded before its 1983 renovation. Y’oughta visit. It’s quite a place.
I have also spent substantial time in almost every state in the U.S., country in Europe, South/Central/Caribbean America plus much of Asia, most of it playing what I like to call “people music,” just about all of it with African and African-American roots. I myself am a working class Celtic-American with an Ivy League-level education. Thus I live in many “actual” worlds with a fair amount of ease.
In which one do you live?
“Sheese” indeed!!!
AG
Even KSA limits the number of legal wives a man may have at any one time. They say four and we say one (both positions based on the respective religious traditions).
But consider the male to female ratio in KSA. 25-54 years – 7 million men and 5.3 million women. If a mere 5% of those men have four wives, that increases the shortage of women from 1.7 million to 2.7 million. No wonder they’ve exported some of their unmarried surplus males to join jihadi militias.
From a secular perspective, taxation and government benefits are based on a single spouse and more than one compounds the complexity, would require new legislation to accommodate those that want the goodies of being married but want more than one spouse, and that in turn costs more money to administer. To hell with that. Love it (one spouse) or leave it (as Mitt’s great-grandfathers did).
So now we’re denying people the right to live as they will because it requires inconvenient paperwork? Monogamist privilege is real.
Monogamist privilege is real. What a load of crock. When we speak of privilege, it is in comparison with some group that is denied or discriminated against through no choice or fault of their own and the privilege has tangible and real value. There’s no special privilege that an unmarried monogamous couple enjoys over that of an unmarried polygamous group. Other than social/cultural disapproval which isn’t a legal matter.
Costly paperwork/record-keeping that we’d all have to pay for because some small number of people aren’t content with one spouse, serial monogamy, and/or living together without benefit of a legal contract.
A marriage license does confer special rights and privileges for a couple that are denied to single persons. It’s a marriage privilege and therefore, if anyone is being discriminated against, it’s single people. What rights and privileges do single spouse couples enjoy that are being denied to those that want multiple spouses? Those so inclined to want/need more than one SO are completely free to have as many as they want. The only limitation is that only one marriage contract between two named, adult persons can exist at a time. That’s completely non-discriminatory.
I have no problem with polygamy or polyandry as such, but the question becomes what are the legal rights and benefits of all these people. For two person gay marriage this was straight forward, but for multiple marriage not so much. Can 100 persons be married and get SS spousal benefits? 1000? 10,000? one million?
This is a fiscal problem. But putting people in jail for plural marriage is enforcing religion. And that guy in Utah who serially divorced going to jail because he considered himself still married is just thought control and/or religious persecution.
I don’t know if my living in Utah colors my perception of the issue. But it seems to me to require a lot of special pleading to get from “it’s a fundamental human right for a woman to marry another woman” to “it’s only a theoretical right – and a threat to society if practiced – for a woman to marry another woman and a man”.
In general, restricting women’s choices in the name of protecting them has such an odious history that I think it best avoided on principle.
Thank you. There are many of us in the poly community who are quite capable of dealing with jealousy issues and perfectly able to protect ourselves. We don’t need society trying to “protect” us.
Not sure exactly what the argument here is, but the idea that “male violence” is kept in check by the institution of monogamy is, to put it mildly, extremely problematic.
Three or more women in the US are murdered by their husband or boyfriend every day.
How many men are murdered by other men because of sexual disputes in the framework of monogamy? Probably less than women, but still substantial.
We might ask whether the supposed “claim” to another human being given by the culture of monogamy in America, the “I belong to you, you belong to me,” is not itself responsible, not only for violence, but a universe of misery caused by child-like dependency relations between partners. Just asking!
Finally, “male violence” is cultural, not the result of some un-civilized hold-over from the “state of nature”. We have a culture of violence in many ways in America. That’s not to say that violence isn’t, to some degree, universal across human societies (I don’t know!), but that there is no easy way to separate violence from culture.
There’s a deplorable level of violence against women in our country.
But there’s many, many worse places to be a woman than the United States of America.
Start with cultures where women do not choose their husbands, then add in cultures where they can’t even expect to be the only (or preferred) wife. Then look at recourse to the law, what constitutes rape, whether they can work or move about freely, whether they have political rights or can serve in office.
In our culture, women are free to marry or not to marry, with the main pressure coming from family, not the state or even religious figures.
That’s a great place to start.
The beginning of female autonomy is the ability to provide for oneself.
There are other reasons why encouraging monogamy has societal benefits, and there are many areas where the government encourages or discourages certain behaviors without actually prohibiting autonomous behavior. The tax code is used for this in a lot of ways, both sensible and not.
Overall, there’s a compelling state interest in having a citizenry where married women aren’t considered “up for grabs” and where people are less promiscuous than they might prefer to be. I think most children benefit when they have both their parents in the home, and the exceptions are why you don’t mandate this, but they don’t change the statistical truth of it. The more single-parent homes you have, the more you have to pay out in government assistance. The more divorced families you have, the more kids are in need of counseling.
So, you can encourage a behavior knowing that it will create a benefit for society without infringing on anyone’s rights.
Of course, encouraging monogamy and banning polygamy are related but different issues.
You can permit polygamy without encouraging it through the tax code. You can permit it while not recognizing its legitimacy. You can tolerate it as de facto practice so long as it isn’t formalized. There are a lot of options that don’t lead down the slippery slope of Rick Santorum marrying his dog and expecting a tax exemption.
Ok, women are relatively better off in American than in some other societies. Is that directly related to a culture of life-long monogamous marriage per se? The standard of life-long monogamy (for women) pre-dated, by centuries, women’s progress on many fronts.
To be the devil’s advocate-and making clear, I have no answers-why has our society decided that the nuclear family is the standard for child care? I believe that’s actually a novel development in human history.
My experience is, a man and a woman alone are not even near sufficient to provide a high level of care and socialization for one child, not to mention multiple children. Now, it might be argued that since we have a weak or non-existent culture of communal child-care, a nuclear family is the best replacement. Maybe, but that begs the question.
I’m not terribly interested in the tax-issues of monogamy, so maybe the child-care issue is a fairly low bar. But the idea that the tax-code improves social order by encouraging marriage and so meaning that fewer women are “up for grabs” (a curious phrase) would seem to be contradicted by the very high divorce rates, the extraordinary costs of that financially and emotionally, the vast number of people “stuck” in miserable marriages, the effect of that misery on children, the massive amount of infidelity, etc. Again, I have no answers, but I would say the utilitarian value of life-long monogamy requires considerably more evidence.
I hope no one is advocating some state role in forcing life-long monogamy.
That automatically confers certain rights when that contract is signed. Rights like the people in that marriage contract are the ones who make medical decisions for each other should one of them become incapacitated. Or the two people have their social security benefits tied i.e. if whoever earns high SS benefits should pass first the other person gets theirs bumped up to that amount.
There are certain rights in that contract that can only be conferred on one other person such as the aforementioned medical decisions. Someone has to be the final say on that.
Given those constraints, the standard civil marriage contract in most states simply aren’t able to address legal complications that come with polygamous marriages.
All of this means that I am not polygamy in theory but I also know that polygamous marriages will involve a lot more than going to the court house and getting a license signed by a clerk upon which a series of rights and responsibilities are automatically conferred. Each arrangement will be a unique contract where all parties to that contract will have to have their rights equally represented going into the negotiations for that contract.
Isn’t that what a prenup us? An additional contract governing the marriage?
It’s not hard to imagine a ‘standard’ polygamous marriage contract, with room for ‘customization’ via prenup, is it? Or even, for that matter, various standards for two-person marriages, three-person marriages-, four-person marriages and holy-shit-even-more-person-marriages-you’re-gonna-have-to-fill-in-a-lot-of-blanks.
It isn’t as simple as adding a signature line or two or three to existing marriage licenses. Polygamous unions would be an entirely separate contract and for them to be valid the state would need to confirm everyone entering into that contract had their interests represented in when terms were settled for that contract.
That is where the complexity comes in and more often than not I feel both proponents and detractors of polygamous marriages don’t address the contract issues involved.
I get that it’d be a whole different contract. Just seems to me that making a standard ‘whole different contract’ is fairly simple. I mean, here’s your standard two-person marriage contract. It says X. If you don’t like X, get a prenup. Now here is your standard three-person contract. It says Y. If you don’t like Y, get a prenup. And here is your standard five-person contract. It says Z. If you don’t like Z, get a prenup.
Pretty simple, given how much paperwork there already is in the world.
I’m not sure what you mean about the state ensuring that everyone has their interest represented, though. When I married, the state didn’t ensure that. We just signed the standard two-person contract.
it out to be. Take, for example, the question of Social Security benefits. Let’s say it is a three person marriage and the person who earned the most dies first. Which of the other two people gets the survivor benefits? That would have to be spelled out in the marriage contract before hand. You can call that a pre-nup if you want but that only reinforces my point that these would be complex issues not easily solved with a boiler plate contract and an easy peasy “pre-nup” (which are rarely easy peasy in today’s marriages).
As for the state having an stake in making sure everyone’s interests are fairly represented it would be because this would be a unique contract for every situation. It wouldn’t be a default situation like a two person marriage is.
According to the United States Government Accountability Office (GAO), there are 1,138 statutory provisions in which marital status is a factor in determining benefits, rights, and privileges. That is a long list of that would need to be negotiated.
I don’t understand the law, so that’s certainly possible!
I thought that a boilerplate contract would be (relatively) easy. Like, ‘any one of you dies, the other two share survivor benefits equally.’ And then if there’s bitter disagreement about what, exactly, ‘equally’ means after RichSpouse dies, the poly people do what we mono people do: sue each other.
I dunno. I mean, every will is more-or-less unique, right? Would this be that much tougher than a will?
“… that much tougher than a will?”
Ah-hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Oh, my stars and garters, dear Steggles, you clearly have little to no experience with wills, estates, trusts, probate, Medicare/Medicaid spend-down, the tax code governing inheritance and property transfers, et bloody cetera.
I spoke with a lawyer a few days ago, going over my requirements for a very simple estate — not much money, one property, three siblings unlikely to contest the will, no children — and it still took an hour plus to thrash out the bare bones of what should be done. My will will start with a template, but undergo extensive revisions to make it do what I want. When I get the draft documents from him I’ll be going over them, tweaking as necessary, then we’ll get the final done.
Without getting into the weeds on this, I note blogospheric discussion of this seems oblivious to the polyamorous community, which is huge in the Bay Area. I’m not sure those relationships are stable, but they are not structurally sexist – women are just as likely to have multiple partners as men are. This particular objection seems to be based on extrapolating from societies much more sexist than ours to assert how this will go down in our society. It’s extra-legal, but it’s happening, and that’s how it’s happening.I’m not aware of male violence being unusually an issue either.
The 1099 economy is already playing havoc with monogamy.
Don’t think polygamy will ever be anything but niche under current conditions. Or temporary.
It’s Time to Legalize Polygamy
Of course, I’d rather just get rid of laws that preference marriage altogether, because as Marie notes they’re discriminatory against single people, and we should allocating the fruits of society based on your marital status. Until that happens, expand the rights to more people…
should not be
That special status to married people is based on the pre-WW II society, wherein only a handful of women were in the work force and most were dependent on a husband or father for support. I agree with those who say we need to phase out those laws, but how to do so while protecting the not insubstantial number of people who do live that way?
In particular, I’m not crazy about two working people having their children raised by strangers like orphans, even if they are rich orphans.