Every day brings more proof that Donald Trump will be an absolute disaster as President, one thoroughly dwarfing the disaster that was George W. Bush. The CIA statement of Russian interference in the election creates a further case for the Electoral College to deny Trump the Presidency. I think this is very unlikely, and, further, if it happened, I think it would create massive, well-armed unrest that would destabilize the country. Several days ago, the Washington Post suggested that Hillary free her electoral members to vote for another Republican in the hope that at least 37 Republicans would join them and choose another Republican over Trump. This implies that there are at least 37 out of 306 Republican electors who are Americans first and Republicans second. The ratio I’ve seen in recent decades seems much lower than that, but who knows anything about these electors, so I guess it is possible. Let’s game it out.
The Post suggests Romney as an example of someone to throw to. A pretty acceptable compromise to me, but absolute death for the Republican base, and the big problem for Republicans in doing this will be getting their base to accept it. The base tried as hard as they could not to nominate Romney, lining up behind the likes of Bachman and Cain. Ultimately, the anyone-but-Mitt vote could not coalesce behind a credible candidate, so Mitt was successfully shoved down their throats with only one basis: he was the man that could win. And he lost. After Clinton, Romney would be the least acceptable person to the Republican base.
The name of Kasich has also been floated. The Republicans resoundingly chose Trump over him in the primary, and he became a leader of the anti-Trump forces. The base will not accept him either.
I think the best Republican to throw to, in the sense of the shortest of the very long shots, is Paul Ryan. Ryan has always been the most beloved pet of the donor class, who we now see has a lot more juice in the Trump administration than was being signaled during the election, and who in any case have no doubt tremendous juice with the electors. He was not actually defeated by Trump, like Kasich, or by the voters, like Romney. The two did publicly quarrel, but also publicly reconciled, more or less. It would be the Republican establishment, in alliance with the Democratic establishment, protecting the country from the lunacy created by the Republican base.
Would Ryan actually be an improvement over Trump? Absolutely. Ryan’s agenda of maximal damage to the welfare state, coupled with as little taxation and regulation of the elite as possible, has been embraced by Trump anyway, his campaign rhetoric to the contrary spectacularly notwithstanding. Further, Ryan would have to pursue it with reduced legitimacy, with Trump calling him a traitor, and with massive unrest to try to quell. He’s going to have a lot of distractions, and is going to need a lot of Democratic help, because he will be facing civil war in his own party, and blood in the streets. Ryan has shown that, though he is an ideologue, he is also a conventional politician, who makes deals when he has to. .
Which is why I’m scared that Ryan will exact a price, and it is Democratic cooperation in dismantling Social Security and Medicare. In fact, for any mainstream Republican, I think that will be the price, probably not stated publicly. It has been for decades their wettest dream, but they are afraid to go there alone. If Democrats are willing to pay that price, there will and should be a revolution in the party. Now we have complete realignment. Both parties will be complicit in very unpopular changes (especially unpopular once they are actually made), in a state of civil war, and basically universally reviled. At that point, we become the non-violent resistance to contrast with the violent, and push a social welfare program that starts from the ground up. Medicare is gone? Let’s have socialized medicine, or at least single payer, full stop.
Beyond all that, Ryan will at least take the job seriously and approach it with the temperament of an adult. He will take security briefings. He will not appoint grossly-unqualified people to the cabinet, though he will put the EPA, public education, and such in the hands of their ideological opponents, as Trump, too, has done. The alt-right will not have a voice in his administration. Civilian control of the military will be clearly maintained.Thuggery in the streets will not be feeling so empowered.
Will the plutocrats prefer Ryan, even though they are getting the same agenda on the issues they care about with Trump? Possibly, just because Trump is so clearly destabilizing, and most of the elite do not want that. Ryan is also destabilizing because of the unrest that would result from his installation. They would have to choose their poison blind, just like the rest of us. I don’t know what they would choose.
Will we still face a massive armed uprising? Yes, but probably less massive than with Romney, and certainly less massive than with Clinton, whom the base has been trained to despise for over two decades. From the perspective of Sanders Democrats, violent Trumpistas vs. an alliance of the Republican and Democratic party establishments has a “let’s you and him fight” quality, but we are all stuck on the battleground. Many people will be repulsed by both sides in that conflict, which means our actual support is likely to increase. That said, the threat to the country from violent insurrection should not be dismissed. Those who think people in their own land with light arms and homemade bombs would stand no chance against the US military were not paying attention in Iraq. And the loyalties of the soldiers would be divided. One half of one percent of Trump voters is an army of 320,000. Many with guns and military training. Many with many guns, capable of arming others.
Should the Electoral College open Pandora’s box by rejecting Trump? I have seriously mixed feelings. Those who think things cannot be worse than with Trump dangerously lack imagination. OTOH, if there must be a bloody insurrection, let it be against the Republican Party, especially the Ryan division. Both the Trump Presidency and violent insurrection are so extreme that it is impossible really to game them out with any confidence.
Finally, let’s set aside the argument that it matters much that the campaigns would have been conducted differently if it were not assumed that the Electoral College would vote according to the state results. That is no doubt true, but the right of voters to choose their leaders is not generally supposed to include a right to be addressed in a certain way or with a certain strategy. The argument about confounding expectations (not really breaking the rules, since the rule is that electors vote as they please) is basically an argument about what is fair to the campaigns. It is not fair to a campaign to be judged by different standards than what you competed on. But democracy ultimately serves voters, not campaigns, and fairness to voters must trump fairness to campaigns. I think following the popular vote is ultimately the fairest thing to the voters. The implication is that the electoral college has got to go and soon. All that would be happening here is the College’s independence being used to solve at great cost to governmental legitimacy a problem it itself created. It was created, in theory, to prevent a victor like Trump, but, in fact, it has made him possible.
It’s fairness to voters to make someone President who not on the ballot in any of the 50 states?
Man, you know who you sound like? Republicans after Obama was elected. And Booman on the front page sounds like a birther with his Putin crap.
Are you guys trying to destroy all credibility of the Democratic Party? Take your cue from President Obama who accepted the election returns and graciously invited his successor to the White House. That’s what democracy looks like, not this scorched earth irredentist treason to the Constitution that’s being taked about on this blog.
Trump should be ousted? OK! There’s a Constitutional recipe for that, impeachment, which should be familiar to Clintonites.
Advocating ouster of a duly elected President is treason. Clinton should be arrested and stand trial for treason to the Constitution that all of us in government swore an oath to uphold (and some of to also defend – with our bodies).
What is the treason that Clinton committed?
Being HRC.
Title: “Clinton: if you are going to throw, throw to Ryan” Urging EC members to not honor their states vote, i.e. block the legitimate succession.
What you be saying if the situation was reversed and Trump was urging Electors to not vote for Clinton?
The electors can vote for whomever the fuck they want. There’s nothing in the constitution that binds them to any candidate. Some states have laws that attempt to bind them but they haven’t been seriously challenged.
Also, suggesting the electors change their vote isn’t treason. Look it up.
There are more legal limitations in this country than the US Constitution. Judge rules Colorado’s Electoral College members must vote for Hillary Clinton
You would be outraged if Trump were that one that was short of 270 EC votes and called for faithless electors in “blue states” to vote for him or “whoever the fuck they want.” Do you really want to advance the idea that if the EC were 269:269 that a single “faithless elector” could put a person that didn’t run on the ballot that would go to the House? ie Paul Ryan?
I saw that article. You know that the electors can appeal the decision, and also vote the way they wish and let the courts sort it out.
You assume much with facts not in evidence that I would be “outraged” if Trump challenged the EC if he had won the popular vote by millions. I do know that I would love to test your theory, but I venture to say that this same scene will be replayed with yet another democrat before it ever happens to a republican.
I’ve yet to meet a staunch political partisan that in the rare occasions when tested aren’t hypocritical. It’s a struggle for everyone regardless of political leanings, but this particular question isn’t actually all that difficult. Your current position is more telling than you seem to acknowledge.
Sure they can. How long will that take? Can all such electors make their way up through the federal courts to the SC as quickly as Bush did in Bush v. Gore? They’re already several weeks behind the Bush 2000 court filings which was accepted for review on December 9, 2000 and the SC ruling issued on December 12, 2000. Oh dear, it looks as if today is December 13.
And what have you got? Two CO electors that don’t want to vote for Clinton (and may be willing to defy a federal court decision). That will switch up the EC vote from 302:232 to 302:230. Add in a WA elector that has threatened not to vote for Clinton and a TX elector that may bolt from Trump and the EC vote will be 301:229.
It’s one thing to demand public recounts based on reasonable suspicions that the votes hadn’t been properly counted and the entire election outcome hinged on those votes (i.e. FL 2000) and flaying about for anything that could possibly change the outcome (ie 1960 when Nixon wanted to demand a recount in IL and another state until it was pointed out to him that even if a recount flipped those two states, he would still lose).
Don’t forget:
This is a big non-sequitur. VoW implied that suggesting the EC toss the election to someone else was treasonous. It most definitely is not treasonous.
As to the rest of your aspersions, I believe the electors should toss it to the house, and I would feel the same if Bernie were the candidate. Trump is uniquely unqualified to be president, and has more direct conflicts than any candidate in my lifetime.
Lots of people bray about the sanctity of the constitution, but why if we are not willing to use the tools it provides?
How do you embed a picture on this blog? Asking for a friend.
how to embed image
I’m outraged McConnell took a chainsaw to procedural norms and declined to even vote on a Supreme Court candidate. Result for him: total victory. So if there is not an iron-clad indisputable legal obligation for the electors to choose someone, then yeah, they can choose whoever they want and we can all cry about it.
Ridiculous. You betray no evidence of having paid the slightest attention to what’s even being discussed here, nor of having the first clue re: relevant law, including what’s actually in the Constitution.
The electors elect the President. They are allocated by state.
If the people elected the President, the electoral college would be obligated to vote for Hillary Clinton. That’s the part that the Trump supporters are trying to gloss over.
A democratic election went for Clinton, but in this republican structure of government, the pledged electors for Trump won a majority.
The Constitution does not operate on the principle of fairness to voters; if it did, Clinton would have been conducting meetings of a transition team for a month.
Hamilton’s Federalist 68 argues the basis for the electoral college as a tripwire for runaway democracy, which the elites feared, and interference of a foreign power. (For Hamilton, that foreign power was believed to be France, then simmering at some point in its revolution.)
A President who delivers the US government to a foreign power would be treason. The very presence and broad powers of the electoral college means their selection of a different President and Vice President is fully constitutional. But if the electoral college does pursue this direction, no doubt the Trump campaign will take the issue to the Supreme Court, where it will be interesting to watch how Clarence Thomas decides.
As a practical matter, original moves by the electoral college are not going to happen. The states have hard-wired in duopoly winner-take-all victories in most states. And failure of a candidate to get a majority in the electoral college only throws it to the current Republican-dominated House of Representatives.
As for Democrats destroying their brand, that happened in 2014.
what booman spelled out in detail in the first place?
One almost gets the sense voice either didn’t bother to read any of it, or else couldn’t grasp it for some reason.
So hard to imagine how having it all laid out again (as you did quite well!) is likely to change any of that.
But good on ya for trying anyway!
seem invested in Trump actually becoming preznit.
Interesting, that.
While the diarist said that I can’t find anywhere that Secretary Clinton said that. Her campaign has rightly stayed out of most of this. The only thing they have weighed in on is the electors getting an intelligence briefing.
That said if she suggested that it isn’t treason.
Right up to but not over the line or over the line?
Why should only the electors be privy to the “secret findings?” We know what such WMD “secret findings” actually were. A load of bs, but good enough for Congress to sign off on.
Valerie Plame’s story is a good example of what should be made public and what shouldn’t. What shouldn’t be made public is the names of operatives or anything that can identify them. When that happens intelligence assets are compromised. On the other hand people on the intelligence committee and congressional leadership have the clearance to get that information. Ideally they are not supposed to leak it.
It seems very obvious to me the electors are asking for a modified version of what congressional leadership has received i.e. not as detailed but also not as scrubbed as what is released to the public.
Where is NSA in all this ado? They sure are being quiet. And aren’t they the ones who do the traces?
Its the NSA’s nature to be quiet. They would report to the Sec of Defense, Director of Central Intelligence, Director of National Intelligence and probably National Security Council.
Nominally, the DCI (CIA head) would combine signals/electronic intelligence with human intel (augmented by other sources and methods) and provide considered judgment to the President.
The NSA owns the Internet and phone system in the US and most of the world so you can be damn sure they know who talked to who and likely what they said.
The proper public voice would be the DCI.
R
I said the Washington Post suggested it, not Clinton. The post is rhetorically addressed to Clinton, but that’s a framing device. It games out how she should throw if she does. It does not argue whether she should throw. As I said, I have very mixed feelings about using the EC this way, although it is how it is intended to be used. I did say if there was going to be an armed insurrection, I would prefer it to be against Ryan than Clinton.
Which is why this is such a clueless, non-sequitur, mis-direction:
Aside from the obvious fact that, in fact, “Advocating ouster of a duly elected President is[n’t] treason” (see Constitution, impeachment . . . as you continue directly and self-contradictorily to acknowledge . . . duh!) . . .
. . . no such “ouster of a duly elected President” is under discussion here, nor has it even been floated here as even a remote eventuality, so far.
Obviously, under law (most importantly, under the Constitution, the Supreme Law of the Land), neither Trump nor anyone else, including any president in history, is “a duly elected President” until s/he has actually been . . . well . . . “duly elected” by the individuals making up the institution charged by the Founders in the Constitution to “duly elect” our presidents: those would be the Electors comprising the Electoral College!!!
(Get it? “Electors” . . . “elect”! Tough concept, I know!)
(As I first saw someone correctly note here, the frequent references by the Worse-Than-Useless Corporate Media to “President-elect Trump” — or worse, as I’ve also heard, “President Trump”, “Mr. President”, “Mr. President-elect”, “our new president”, etc., etc., are wrong, false, and will remain so at least until 12/19, the first date on which any of those descriptors [much less “duly elected president”] could even potentially be true, accurate.)
Which is the entire subject and basis of the discussion here, but which nevertheless appears to have gone right over your head.
You really should try to keep up. Or, alternatively, if that’s beyond you, opt not to weigh in?
*”Fixed That For You”
single assertion or conclusion.
But this seems exactly what booman was suggesting in the thread from his first (I think) post floating this idea, i.e., you’d better “game out” both the upside and downside of such a radical action. This looks to me like a very credible, thoughtful, and thought-provoking attempt to do exactly that.
I do especially endorse the final graf, with this addition: I think I first saw at LGM (Campos?) the point made that the “they’d-have-campaigned-differently-absent-EC” point is quite uncompelling, cuz CA, NY, IL (TX being the one populous state that would likely have bucked the trend in that scenario; though even there, it’s not implausible that aggressive effort there by both might have reduced Trump’s margin there, thus contributing to an overall increase in Clinton’s popular vote advantage). Really, what possible basis is there for imagining that, if both campaigns had focused most/all their efforts on those most-populous states in the absence of an EC, Clinton’s popular-vote win would have been anything other than even larger than it was?
This is a really dumb proposal because Clinton’s electors have next to no say. I believe Trump has 306 right now. If 37 vote for other people it goes to the House (we are not getting 37 Republican electors voting for Clinton). Otherwise Trump will officially be elected by the College. Whether Clinton’s voters vote for her, Ryan, McMullin, Sanders, Stein, or anybody else has no effect. Only voting for Trump would make a difference.
You obviously didn’t follow the proposal at all. Even if you don’t have faith in me, I am just gaming out a proposal made by the Washington Post, as I said. Do you think it’s likely that they understand the rules and would not be proposing something that couldn’t work for bone-simple reasons like you outlined? Let me spell it out for you: the idea is Clinton tells her electors to vote for some Republican instead of Trump, with the agreement of 37 of Trump’s electors to do the same. The result would be a majority for that other Republican. Got it now?