My internet is down and will be down according to Verizon until late this afternoon. It crashed at the exact same time as every Russian story in the universe hit the webs last night. So, I’m using my phone’s hotspot to connect and that’s a little expensive. As a result, I’ll keep this shorter than I otherwise would.
One way I can tell the Intelligence Community is loaded for bear and deadly serious about taking the Trump administration down is that former high-and-low ranking officers are coming out of the woodwork to shovel dirt on The Donald.
Former acting CIA director John McLaughlan on Friday responded to reports that President Trump’s son-in-law and senior adviser Jared Kushner discussed setting up a secret communications line between Trump’s transition team and the Kremlin, saying if such reports are true, it would be considered espionage.
“I don’t want to overstate this because obviously there is a lot we don’t know — we don’t know the exact content of the conversation. We don’t know the objective that was a part of the conversation — those things we don’t know,” McLaughlan said on MSNBC’s “The Last Word” Friday.
“But I can’t keep out of my mind the thought that, if an American intelligence officer had done anything like this, we’d consider it espionage.”
But I have a simpler way of gauging this. When the Allies cracked the Nazi’s ENIGMA encryption during World War Two they allowed people to march into certain death rather than risk revealing that they could read the Germans’ internal communications. But the fact that we intercepted the Russian ambassador’s communications with the Kremlin was just presented as the evidence for Jared Kushner wanting to set up a private network with Moscow. That should be the most closely guarded secret we have, or close to it. So, to just go ahead and risk losing that capability is an indication of how serious of a risk they think Trump represents.
They would never reveal that information unless they thought removing Trump from power was a higher priority and that this information could lead to that outcome.
#1: it may not have been encrypted communication
#2: this may have been planned/planted by the Russians as disinformation
#3: As time elapses on American history, combined with the now cultish obedience of Republicans to money, power, and hate, it’s not inconceivable that Trump family is simply what it appears to be – traitors.
The massive incompetence of our governing and influencing elites has never been more glaringly obvious although its decline has been apparent since Clinton’s impeachment.
The examples of their malfeasance on every level over an extended period of time are just too numerous. From stealing two presidential elections to pointedly ignoring any obligation to help the working classes during the Great Recession to the fact that Obama/Bush knew Trump was exactly what he is and couldn’t destroy him before the nomination is just massive failure across the board.
The devolution of the basic legitimacy of societal norms to the point that it’s just simply every man for himself, and you better hope to be born rich, is a pretty poor excuse for a society that considers itself civilized.
This was allegedly an intercept from Kisliak to Russia about a meeting at Trump Tower where Kushner supposedly wanted a “back channel” (aka covert) communication with them.
I keep worrying about #2; this would be a perfect story to plant to convince the ‘truth is utterly unknowable except I’m always right’ crew from dismissing all the terrifying news that we know is true to a ‘we landed on the moon’ degree of confidence.
I mean, the Russians planted fake Clinton-email information and the entire FBI, knowing it was fake, still did exactly what they wanted. It seems clear that they’re objectively better at this than we are.
This is allegedly an intercept. If wrong, Kushner would know it immediately and say something, as he met with the ambassador. This is some serious shit.
I’m sure it’s true, I’m just having a hard time wrapping my mind around it.
I mean, I know exactly who I sound like, but it could be a staged intercept, no? And Kushner could be letting the media dig themselves deeper in the hole. I’m sure that’s not the case. These people can’t plan an easter egg hunt, much less a conspiracy. I just can’t imagine what a half-smart crapsack like Kushner was thinking. This is crazily serious shit. The investigation just started Act I and we’re having seriously Act III reveals.
would work.
The interceptee actually sent, by standard method, actual, known-false-at-both-ends communication between Kislyak and Kremlin?
That it?
If so, struggling to fine any plausibility in that scenario.
Kushner can clear it all up, if fake news? I sort of doubt it.
Yeah. Kislyak sends a baseless, or wildly exaggerated, message to the Kremlin, knowing it will be intercepted. That seems simple to me. They snuck fake documents in an email hack that changed the election and the world. Why does he do it? Because anything that feeds the ‘FALSE NEWS! WE KNOW NOTHING! WE’RE BRAINS IN A TANK! know-nothings undermines the country and supports the the Republican Party.
Kushner’s reaction kinda disproves the theory though. He should be coming out with loud denials, if it’s not true. I don’t think he’s subtle enough to give the media enough rope …
Did you see Maddow on the apparently-incorrent reporting that Comey was fired a few days after requesting more resources for the Russian investigation? I worry that there’s so much news going down that it’s easier to slip up.
Yep!! He is risking a lot by keeping quiet and he won’t be able to for long bc one of those congressional committees will be calling him.
So… Your problem is you assume the Russian are stupid.
The Russians know 3 things about the US Intelligence Community that are mostly relevant here:
That is to say if you took all the computing power of the human race right now and for the foreseeable future and turned it on breaking a single AES-512 encrypted message it would still take more than a billion years to break the encryption on that message unless you have the cryptographic key used to encrypt the message, there is a flaw in the encryption algorithm, or there is a flaw in the process used to encrypt the message (i.e. the cryptographic coprocessor is supposed to be giving a number that is random to some acceptable state ‘X’ but is actually giving a random number less than the acceptable state ‘X’.
Aside: Computers are actually not capable of generating truly random number, just numbers that are random to a certain state. If that state is not large enough then the ‘random number’ generated by the processor can be determined at a later date with less effort than breaking the encryption algorithm itself.)
3. Given the above, the only way to guarantee that someone intercepts any given message is to send it in plain text or some encryption algorithm that has already been broken.
Given those facts, and a moderate presumption that the US doesn’t actually have hidden control of the Russian Cryptographic Machines on both ends, planting a false intercept of the type we are talking about, that is Official Russian Communications between the Russian Ambassador and the Kremlin, are very hard to pull off.
Nobody believes anything passed in plain text or old proven to be broken ciphers in these kinds of communications. And it’s a lot of guess work and trial and error to figure out which ciphers the other side has actually broken.
The point of a setup is for the US to actually read the damn thing. Passing it in an easy to read format gets the information treated as garbage; passing it in a secure format means the people you need to see the message never do. Trying to pass a message in a ‘secure but not really’ state is just crazy hard. If it’s important why not use the big almost-assuredly-secure ciphers? If it’s real why deviate from the normal secure cipher to this ‘secure-but-not-really’ cipher? And a dozen more issues with trying to go down that path.
There are just easier and better ways to get out the message than futz around with faking a direct high level sigint.
If that is true, what do you think is going on here? There are a whole lot of media pundits who think we intercepted a message. So what was it? Fake news intended to implicate Flynn and Kushner?
Yes, correct. I think the Post and Times are likely getting information from the IC that created this story not fake news from Russia. Fact: the NSA and CIA monitor all communications that involve any Russian installations in the US and Kushner contacted Kislyak on an unguarded communications mode (presumably cell phone) to set up a secure communications mode in the Russian Embassy. Which is insane of course, which is why Kislyak said no. What did Kushner want that couldn’t wait till Dump was President? The loans for his and the Trump Organizations many indebted properties and other financial problems. From the beginning this whole affair has been about money laundering with the quid pro quo lifting the sanctions when Dump became President. The hacking operation was related but separate. Well, that all fell apart and now we’re dealing with the end game at this point.
Yes. Of course “the Post and Times are…getting information from the IC that created this story not fake news from Russia.”
Does that in any way guarantee that it is not “fake news”from the IC?
Please…!!!
AG
I’m sure you are going to get to the bottom of what is and isn’t “fake news”. Some of us connected these dots well before there were any leaks to the news media.
Keep throwing chaff, Arthur. It’s what you do best.
Time will tell…won’t it.
Time heals all wounds.
It also wounds all heels.
It’ll take time…but history will sort it all out eventually.
I can’t wait, myself!!!
You?
AG
Intent. The argument that this may be disinformation spread by the Russians is missing what they would gain from exposing this conversation. Early Dec was when the Kremlin was licking their chops at the opportunities a Trump admin could offer, to do anything to jeopardize that doesn’t unpack with the timing.
At this point I can see Putin’s folks are just sowing chaos knowing that it generally diminishes the US internationally, especially since this is the second US president in three that’s a functional moron.
Chaos favors the prepared. Especially by its perpetrators since they know what’s true vs false while everyone is paralyzed or distracted trying to figure out what’s really going on. And it provides opportunities for bad people to excuse their own bad behavior – like Comey.
There’s no immediate downside for Putin and the cost – a simple communication they create to be intercepted – is absolute zero.
No matter the actual facts you can be sure the Russians are laughing their asses off daily at each new development.
One outcome that would be poetic would be seizure of Trump assets purchased with laundered Russian cash after his impeachment and conviction.
I also can’t see a downside for Putin. He wins no matter what.
It’s not on him that we elected two out of three that are morons. Now that you mention it, Bush is what probably set the whole thing in motion. Once Putin met him, he probably had a tingle go up his leg and thought…”shit, I could subvert the whole fucking country”.
As far as return on investment…has anybody done better than Putin, ever? Small potatoes in cash, coming from his multitude of kickbacks from oligarchs, spread around. Cash that had to be laundered anyway.
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Can’t disagree but the timing of Jared’s request seems to argue that Putin’s plan hadn’t yet reached the chaos stage. He was still looking for help with Obama sanctions that he must have known would be arriving shortly.
The Russians were bargaining at this point, the article points to there being Russian bank financing, which Trump’s world uses, if the sanctions were lifted. As long as they were in a bargaining mode, no need to toss out the disinformation just yet.
Faking a high level sigint from the Russian Ambassador to the Kremlin is neither simple or easy.
You’re blowing smoke and bullshit.
Thank you, LosGatosCA. You pinned it.
The whole system is rotted out.
It’s going to fall, too. It’s just a matter of time. Dems, Republicans? Two sides of the same rotting timber.
Thanks again…
AG
Aha, more of that both sides are corrupt and evil and we are all going to hell, right? Democrats are just as evil as the GOP and The Trumpies in your book?
Not in mine, thank you very much. Your cynicism is self-defeating and offers no path forward for those of us who believe that pushing back and fighting for change is how progress has always been and will continue to be made. And, as I have done for more than 40 years, it will be from within the Democratic party.
That’s all he has, is smug dismissive cynicism, sneering from his lofty perch of superiority at all the fools beneath him.
Well, that and the posturing.
And the photos.
No content, no alternative path forward, just corrosive nihilism.
You ask:
It depends on which “Democrats,” and which “Republicans,” dww44.
Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, the Paul family and any number of less prominent others in both parties? They disagree on tactical measures, but they share the same enemies.
Who, exactly?
The Permanent Government that has ruled…and progressively ruined in the process…this country since the JFK assassination.
The Trump situation?
Almost anyone who has made the decision to work for him…w/the possible exception of some people who might have done so to try to moderate the damage that he may cause…is suspect.
AG
Just about everything you’ve said is untrue.
Wow. Nearly full marks.
You write:
Elaborate, please.
I am always curious when someone says something as nebulous as this.
Specifics?
AG
Democrats are far from where republicans are, but Democrats can’t stop the rot either.
If everything is fake then nothing matters. But if he did such a thing the only reason to do so would be for covert communications. And why would you have such a thing? The intel community simply cannot take that chance, since it opens you up to a voice in the Oval Office and to leaks of secure info to an adversary. Kushner will have to make up his mind. Will he take the 5th or say this is more fake news, a lie. If he says it is a lie, he is in for a whole lot of trouble, if he is proven wrong.
It’s nice that AG’s formatting is so distinctive. I can identify it just by the -shape- of the lines, and therefore skip it without reading. Only rarely do I actually end up reading his … (uh) contributions. Today was that rare exception. 45 seconds of my life I’ll never get back.
It’s nice that AG’s formatting is so distinctive. I can identify it just by the -shape- of the lines, and therefore skip it without reading. Only rarely do I actually end up reading his … (uh) contributions. Today was that rare exception. 45 seconds of my life I’ll never get back.
Yes and I think this relates to the Eric Price secret “back-channel” meeting in January in the Seychelles.
Why they thought they needed a back-channel is another question — finances or whatever — but clearly Trump directed Kushner and Flynn to set this up.
Back-channel…the best most current example of back-channel was President Obama’s use of the Pope to work with Cuba.
I believe one more reason for the IC community commitment to take down the donald….there is only one president at time.
Just incredible. Covert communications with Russia, leaking of Manchester intel and Israeli intel, location of submarines…… WTF.
I think Booman is right about this. Why would you reveal your intercept capabilities for some minor offense? This is deadly serious stuff. It goes beyond right and left. Some action has to be taken now.
Nothing has been revealed here.
It is no secret and it is actually a known fact that intelligence agencies routinely monitor communications of foreign “diplomats” when they are in the US “representing their governments.” And this is not something that is exclusive to the US, other nations routinely do it as well. And people working in government, especially at the White House, know this or should know it. This is another reason why you don’t put inexperienced people in high-level positions like this.
So no, the US is not divulging any deep secret by revealing how they learned about Kushner’s attempt at a back channel discussion. And this why the former DCIA and others are amazed that Kushner actually did this — Kislyak was too for the same reason — and assumes naivete on his part, that maybe HE did not know the US routinely monitors these conversations.
You may be right, but if that is true why in the world would Kisliak reveal sensitive information on an insecure line. He surely must know as well that we monitor it? Or, just sort of spit balling here, maybe he thought it was secure?
Kislyak wasn’t revealing anything sensitive insofar as Moscow was concerned. It wasn’t like he had asked Kushner to set up a secret channel. It was that naive fool Kushner doing the asking. And in so doing he gave the Russians compromat — compromising information, that could be used to blackmail Kushner had this not been made public. US intelligence agencies knew, but Kushner in his rich kid who thinks he owns the damned world naivete clearly had no clue that they knew and thus was open to blackmail. So making this pubic in a lot of ways saved him, and us, from even more pain down the road.
I don’t believe the things Kushner has done to date are the result of someone under threat of blackmail, but of a naive individual who doesn’t understand that being a big fish in US real estate doesn’t mean jack when it comes to dealing with foreign governments as a high-level representative of the Presidency.
You assume this is a game to Russia. It is not. They would not want this sort of thing revealed.
I assume know such thing. This is not a game, with the implications you imply, just the facts of life regarding intel tradecraft and those involved. This is serious business.
Thought experiment (and this in no way excuses or gives the inexperienced and mostly ignorant Trump/Kushner duo any creds for diplomacy): What to do for an incoming POTUS team that seeks more harmonious relations with a foreign government elevated to enemy status by the outgoing administration and formally has the total IC community against it?
Hara-kiri?
AG
Wait until they’re the actual administration.
Do you know this is SOP? Nixon, and very likely Reagan, actively interfered in FP during the campaign. A stretch for me to buy that they (and Bush/Cheney) did nothing from their election (or selection) until inaugurated. However, they weren’t handicapped by opposition to them from the Pentagon and IC. Plus IC communication intercepts weren’t so well-developed in their time and the Oval Office was less of a fishbowl.
Would a Nixon/Kissinger secret back channel to the PRC even be possible today for a sitting POTUS?
It’s all such a mystery.
¯_(ツ)_/¯
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With respect, Marie3, the Nixon “back channel” to China (and the Obama back channel to Cuba) weren’t “secret unaccountable communications”. They were, instead, completely official, but non-public communications, via unacknowledged governmental emissaries. The idea being, two parties can pretend to still hate each others’ guts, while conducting negotiations. Neither party (at least, not -us-) is trying to hide these facts from the relevant authorities. They just want to preserve the facade of (in these cases) enmity while negotiating more cordial relations.
JarJar’s “back channel” was nothing like this. He was intentionally evading any oversight by the government-of-the-day (of which he was NOT a part). And as Josh Marshall says, we shouldn’t assume he didn’t get that back channel; we should assume he’s got it, and is using it. To, again, evade oversight by the government of the day.
This “intentional confusion” between these two meanings of “back channel” is frustrating.
In posing the question, did I neglect to exclude whatever Trump/Kushner did?
The “what if” is should a real person of peace somehow get elected POTUS with near 100% opposition from the Pentagon, IC, State Dept, and USA thug allies such as KSA, what would be reasonable actions that she/he do under such constraints to advance his/her agenda? “Top Secret” emissaries/negotiations held for Nixon and Obama, but neither faced revolt and leaks from those agencies or other countries. In Obama’s case, there was widespread support throughout US allies and the general public and many identified enemies for ending the fifty-plus year anti-Cuba policy; so, it wasn’t even that much of a secret that negotiations were taking place. Very different from Nixon “going to China” and which was part of the whole Cold War.
What Nixon did during his campaign was clearly a violation of law. ISTR Johnson on record saying it was, afterwards. Reagan? Probably a violation, too. But y’know, IOKIYAR. I have no recollection of Obama doing anything even remotely similar.
Look: Presidents -do- have the right to go against their bureaucracies, as long as they don’t break the law in the process. So a President can decide to secretly approach an enemy to conduct talks. But “secretly” cannot mean “unaccountably”.
I’ll add two more things: (1) the IC is leaking mostly about stuff that happened before the inauguration (or even election) and about follow-ons from that. (2) I also would wish that we didn’t have to rely on the IC to save our bacon. Do you -really- think that that would work? I don’t. Yes, they’re working to bring down a “duly” elected government. Guess what? NOBODY ELSE IS GOING TO DO IT. Because without their leaking, we’d be screwed. We got took by Putin, and we’re well and truly done.
Last thing: I will not be surprised to learn that a lot of the intel comes from our allies. That they took their NATO Article V responsibilities to come to the aid of their ally seriously, and that’s why they’re working hard, hard, hard to save us.
Pretty soon, we’ll get to find out if we still live in a democracy. I’m hopeful, but by no means sure.
Something that is being missed when ‘back Channel’ examples are discussed….
Kushner wanted to use RUSSIAN communication systems! He was not in the slightest concerned with Russia overhearing what was said…they would certainly record it. He was concerned with the American Government knowing what was said.
Here is the thing…that means he also was not concerned about Russia blackmailing him about having nonsecure conversations about government matters.
Why wouldn’t he be concerned about blackmail? Because he is already offering them everything. His value would be too great for the Russians to blow his cover.
So any comparisons, whether Nixon or the BS Kennedy one, are just smoke screens to change the subject, or the arguments of an idiot. its not even comparing apples with oranges. It’s comparing apples with a hole in the ground.
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The election the numbers weren’t rigged. If our populace got took by Russia we deserve what we’re getting. When or if this is over there DOES need to be a major purge of the Intelligence community. They do not run the country, they do not make the decisions. They need their reach curtailed and their oversight strengthened. But for now they are leaking things that are violations or possible violations of law to force republicans to investigate.
Thats very different from leaking embarrasing secrets to make someone look bad because they dont get enough deference or leeway.
How about not firing career professionals at the State Department who’s job its been to manage the details of relationships with foreign governments.
Shouldn’t that depend on the record and agenda of those professionals? It’s not as if the State Dept has a solid and strong record in promoting peace. Like every institution, there are many high quality and ethical professionals dedicated to the mission, but there are also many that aren’t.
(Again — my question is about thinking through something important and not about Trump who took the lazy, but not rare, route by firing those viewed as Obama loyalists.)
Sorry but you need to distinguish between the career diplomats and other State Dept. personnel and the political appointees. I work a lot with State and USAID and they are mostly very good professionals who, in fact, are about promoting peace among other positive goals. Yes, the mostly Republican political appointees often had neo-con agenda goals that led to war but that rarely involved the career people but rather the NSA and DOD, CIA and others.
Bad faith thought experiment.
Consider all of these things and you’ll have an idea why Trump is facing resistance to seeking better relations between the US and Russia.
If the Russian Ambassador sends a message telling the Kremlin he just took a 30 min shit because of bad taco’s to the Kremlin or sends a weather report, it’s encoded in an AES-2MB equivalent or better encryption.
These are real spies. They don’t do anything on an open line.
Exactly.
Thank you.
Amateurs playing pro ball.
AG
Maybe I’m wrong, but the way I read the reporting was that the conversation with Kushner was not monitored or intercepted, and the only evidence that it occurred at all what that Kislyak reported about back to the Kremlin.
The ambassador has the most secure lines the Russians can devise for sending messages to the Kremlin and would not likely communicate something so sensitive in any way that could be easily captured, like audibly on a secure phone. Most likely, the message was conveyed by cipher and intercepted and deencrypted.
Either that, or we have bugs that Kislyak can’t find and he’s speaking on a secure line in an insecure office. Either way, if we’re getting the same messages he sends to Putin, we would not want them to know that because they can take measures to prevent it in the future.
Kushner is willing to answer questions on Russian meetings. So maybe we will learn more. I’m not sure when that will be??
I agree. The constant leaks, the number of former intelligence and law enforcement officials on my TV negging Trump, and the between-the-lines disclosure that we can read Russian communications tells me the Deep State is going to war with Trump. I think this one is going to get very ugly. I’m waiting to see if we reach a tipping point were house republicans start breaking from Trump in large numbers. On the other hand, it’s a dangerous game because if Trump survives he will have an incredibly strong hand to impose his will on the country.
Oh, absolutely!!!
Why…it’s just like the run-up to the Iraq War!!! Instead of “former” generals and intelligence officials hyping that war with almost no representation from the other side of the question…the question being “Should we invade Iraq?”, of course…we now have “former” law enforcement and intelligence officials hyping the anti-Trump, anti-Russia question with almost no resistance in the media whatsoever..
Go get ’em, Beltway revolving door boysz and girlsz!!!
It’s only a matter of time before the all-out media blitz will succeed in convincing enough U.S.-ians that Trump must be overthrown…Saddam Hussein II, in a nutshell…and the Republicans, fearing for their electoral lives, will throw in the impeachment towel.
And thence comes Pence…or if he goes down in the carnage, some other PermaGov trusty.
Great work, folks.
Great work!!!
AG
P.S. I do trust that you remember the outcome of the Iraq fiasco, do you not? LosGatosCA’s post above pretty well summarizes the level of competence in the higher reaches of PermaGov DC power.
Like dat.
Wake the fuck up.
Like dat. too.
AG
From what I gather, Trump’s performance with our allies this week was enough to convince them that he’s truly in Putin’s pocket. They have intelligence services too.
Article 5 – coming to rescue us – this time for real…
Just speculation.
Details mechanism for amending Constitution.
What amendment did you have in mind that might have any potential “to rescue us”? Especially given how slow, cumbersome, and unlikely-to-succeed Article V (by design) makes the amendment process and how acute the current crisis is.
cf. excruciatingly slow progress on Move to Amend’s proposed amendment to end the Citizens United/Hobby Lobby legal fiction that Corporate “Personhood” conveys to corporations the same constitutional protections that actual humans possess — a no-brainer if there ever was one. Or the failure of the ERA even after getting very close (within 1 state of ratification, iirc?).
seems to me I heard this “article 5” talking point in the last couple days, can’t remember where.
we can all see two ways the President can be removed constitutionally: impeachment, or the 25th amendment disability process. Like you, I’d like a clear explanation of any other theories.
Article 5 refers to NATO – the provision that an attack on one means retaliation from all. It has to be invoked by the members to allow NATO to act.
Exactly. More information can be found here on NATO Article 5.
of the comment I replied to???
So, in this scenario, who’s NATO waging war on? Us “to rescue us” (from “us”???)? Or Russia “to rescue us”?
Us.
But I think the idea is that Trump missed an opportunity to express support for NATO in his speech by digging them for not spending enough on defense when he could have praised NATO in keeping Europe safe.
It was in the speech and either got taken out at the very last minute or Trump decided to skip over it. It seems more serious than ‘missed’ to me.
I need to know they why if it. Is it Trump being owned by Russia? Is it Bannon types wanting a white fascist axis? Trump thriwing a tantrum over how the NATO members think of him? Some other reason?
Without the why I dont know how to attack it fully.
You mean the 25th Amendment.
https://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_Am25.html
Or not.
I suspect this comment is meant metaphorically. As in “Article V is about the alliance rescuing a member under attack; America is under attack; and our allies are doing their bit to rescue us”.
I wholly subscribe to this interpretation: our allies know we’re in dire straits, know that they’re next, have read and remember their Niemoller (and Franklin (“hang together or hang separately”)) and are doing everything in their power to help us extricate ourselves. I completely believe that a ton of this leaked intel came from our allies, and am thankful that they did it.
Soon, we’ll get to learn whether live in a democracy or not. And we’ll have our allies to thank for that second chance.
Agreed. Wake up call from our friends here and abroad.
Yes, that’s what I meant. Thank you.
They’re “next” for what?
History
Going around the Joint Chiefs and CIA using a back channel likely saved this country, if not the world. But it may have cost JFK his life.
Indeed it may have.
AG
MAHAHA!
Man you had to search far and wide to find a Democrat that ‘did the same thing’
Except,
—-
The U.S. president elected to transmit this sensitive message through his brother, Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy, who met in his office at the Justice Department with Soviet ambassador Anatoly Dobrynin.
——
So, not so secret if the meeting took place at the Justice Department, with the appropriate records kept. And specifically at the direction of the POTUS.
Once again…. unwilling to criticize the Russians, so pick apart tactics.
So, so disingenuous.
.
You would have been right at home with the Cold War warriors of that time.
And because of your loathing for me and all things Russia, you can’t even see that JFK and RFK had to operate in secret and trust Khrushchev and Russia to avoid a potential nuclear war. It’s a credit to all of them that they did so and did so contrary to a large portion of the public and the respective war making institutions in their countries.
Like all those that for no damn good reason insisted that Cuba had to be a US enemy for over fifty years, why do you insist that Russia today has to be our enemy? If the US can cooperate with Russia (and others) on manning ISS missions and being totally dependent on Russia to get the crews up there and back, why does that have to be the exception on cooperation and peaceful co-existence?
Oh I know!
Your belief that having a private email server that broke no crime being far worse than Kushner attempting to save the republic turns out to be sooooo true. And certainly Kushner and Ivanka having offices right down the hall from their daddy is not worth discussing, not when there is the slight remote possibility of Chelsea Clinton winning an election somewhere, sometime, maybe.
Thank GOD we dodged the email server owning, neoliberal believing, probably going to start a war with Russia Hillary Clinton!
Amirite?
.
Because Russia is run by a dictator who wants to resurrect the Soviet Empire. Because making nice with Russia just means losing the rest of Ukraine, and the Baltic states. Because decades and decades of experience with Russia have proven that Russia can’t be trusted, not then, not now.
Yes, but Putin hates Clinton, and so does this particular commenter.
So that trumps world chaos every…single….time.
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Exactly!!!
Here are my 2cents.
Jared and family are all looking for funding. Money dried up in the US and London for Trump. Kushner has a turkey of a development in NYC and his credit line is closed for that big a thing anymore. Where is big easy money? Eastern Europe and Russia.
Same applies to the little dogs under the table. Flynn, Page, etc… Those guys know that money from those oligarchs is like money from the Mob, it has strings…that’s why it stayed relatively small for "consulting". Trump, Jared, etc.. all need Big Money, and that only comes from top political leaders. And they want political payback.
When did it start with Trump? Years ago? Certainly his funding goes back that far. Was the "birther" thing really thought up in his fevered brow? Where did all the money Trump was giving GOP/media in 2008 and 2012 come from? Remember all those GOP politician’s trips to Trump Tower to kiss his ring?
Why would Moscow go through all this trouble? Mischief making. Enhance the prestige of Russia…etc..
But you have to keep your eyes on the prize. What does Russia have that people want? Oil. Keep you eye on oil. the Exxon/Russia deal is the prize. 1/2 a trillion dollars going to Putin and Pals. another half going to Exxon and pals (including political leaders across the globe.). That is Serious Money.
So, we come the GOP Primary and Trump’s growing success. The hacking is more mischief. I don’t think they really believed Trump would win, but cover their bets if so. Those sanctions have to be lifted and maybe Don can do it.
Now we have hubris. Several former spook chiefs are citing that for Trump and family downfall. "Master of the Universe" syndrome. Born to wealth and position, they know the inside rules and are above petty regular considerations.
Considerations like, political operatives or son-in-laws of Presidential candidates having multiple secret meetings with Russians. They think its a sneaky real estate deal in Fla. Have some private meetings or lunch with these guys, who will know? They don’t realize the Russian Ambass and other embassy officials/bankers are wired 12 ways from Sunday. In the old days, the camera shutters would sound like a fire fight. Every word, every look, is documented. That Irish girl who brought you coffee? Mi6. The man with the persistent cough behind you? FBI. The East European cook in the Kitchen? Polish Intelligence. The flower arrangement on the table? Wired and sending to the van in the alley. Those guys can’t fart without a bulletin sent out to 5 Eyes. They know they are operating in a hostile environment that is why the days of looking over your shoulder before using dead drops in parks. Never, Never meeting on US soil.
But Jared et al. They are too smart for this. They know the score and always come out on top. No one will find out. Why did the Russians go along? They know every word is sinking the Trump Family. Chaos in the US govt. String them along, and let the chips fall where they may. If they win, Washington is paralyzed for a year or more and political system damaged. and Don will say what we want. If they don’t win, we have blackmail material on them for the rest of their lives and we can continue to laundry money and other things through their organizations.
Win- win for Moscow.
but the oil? Tillerson is the key there. That’s why State Dept not staffed. Watch Don and Jared dangle on a string, while Tillerson says the right things but works behind the scenes.
Hold trials and hearings all you want, but watch Tillerson.
R
It is just possible that none of these fools knew what they were really doing. Maybe Jared and his father in law just wanted a neat and secure way to do business out of everyone’s prying eyes. Who knows.
For those of you eager to catch up, read this:
http://www.ericgarland.co/2017/05/11/game-theory-citizen-journalists-media/
Just as long as we realize that Trump’s enemies in this are not necessarily friends of the American public, the Constitution, or the rule of law.
And that if it were Obama instead of Trump/Kushner with backchannel communications to the Kremlin negotiating a reduction of nuclear weapons, historians would defend that use of a backchannel, just as they have JFK’s ending the Cuban Missile Crisis.
The problem we face is that Trump is not about reducing nuclear weapons, and we really don’t know what the purpose of that backchannel would be. There is no plausible scenario other than treason that would justify that type of backchannel.
So what is the endgame of this process? President Pence?
President Hatch
Now…where could you possibly have gotten that cockamamie idea?
Hmmm…???
Oh.
Nevermind…
AG
Figures it would be the 83-year-old. By the way, #13 in the line of succession is a choice of Ben Carson or Elaine Chao.
Given that after Hatch, the succession runs through a likely-to-be-very-compromised cabinet members, one could as easily bet it would stop with Chao because (1) woman President and (2) wife of Senate Majority Leader.
After they run through the 17 listed, then what?
Aaaahhh…they probably won’t get that far. A fix will go in somewhere around Ryan.
AG
Chao can’t be President. She’s a naturalized citizen from what I’m given to understand.
correct. she’s not eligible, born IIRC in Taiwan.
The currently constituted Republican party and its militant constituency represents a serious and imminent threat to US national security. This is an existential threat to the republic and is not going away any time soon. We have by now apparently baked it deeply in to our culture.
Hard to find a precedent in history for such defiance of self-interest by a functional liberal democracy but Weimar looms large in our understanding. I am hearing voices of condescension and disbelief from liberal leaders and institutions which are terrifyingly similar to the now silent voices of protest subsumed in the long, slow, agonising conflagration of the Third Reich.
What is your likely advice to a citizen of Hitler’s Germany in 1933? Flee for your life.
Someone (one of more) seem to think this is a big deal. More than just a way to have fast conversations, I suppose. Going to be interesting to hear what Jared has to say about it. Chances are that we just lost any capability this intercept represented.
As far as what he would say, I suggest reading here. Go to the third box quote ‘fibbers forecasts are worthless’.
Those that lie are not good analysts. Those that leave facts out are worthless for finding the truth.
That box quote works for some of the commenters here.
.
Liars lie, most of the time and when they don’t who knows?
Geopolitically Putin has a number of moves which would be enabled by a destabilised American government and an irresolute NATO. Irrespective of Trump’s legal jeopardy, real or imagined, either his continued, wobbly tenure or his messy removal would seem to serve equally well in fulfilling both conditions.
Not seeing how this doesn’t present opportunities for Putin either way. He may even be motivated to provoke whichever outcome seems most calculated to further divide the nation. Bad times.
The most egregious violation I’ve seen up until this was John Brennan’s insistence that he had evidence that Putin was personally involved in directing the hacking of the DNC emails. Of course that was probably not true, but if it was true, then he risked the life of a CIA “asset” working closely with Putin. This is an even worse violation of tradecraft. These people really do need to be tracked down and prosecuted under the Espionage Act. Actually, I believe Brennan should be, too, but of course that’ll never happen. He supports torture, after all.
So far, we have seen nothing that’s patently illegal except the leaks.
Never before have so many security clearances been violated for so little. “Russia-gate” is nine parts attempted Washington political coup, with only a fraction of one part the quantity and quality of evidence that would normally be required to successfully prosecute a real foreign espionage operation.
It’s almost as if there are no rules in this game, and nobody really cares anymore.
The WH Trolls are punching their timecards at the Trib today, Boo!
What has them so riled up?
🙂
You write:
“Almost?”
I am not sure that there have ever been any “rules” anywhere, leveymg. Certainly not when the Romans crucified thousands or the Inquisition tortured and maimed “non-believers.” Certainly not when Hitler gassed who knows how many or when “the Allies” firebombed Dresden and nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Not when the Native Americans were essentially genocided out of their continents or the Africans were enslaved to be labor for the development of those continents.
What people are beginning not to care about is the hype that there are “rules.” There is simply too much info to the contrary suddenly available due to the digital revolution.
It’s an awakening, of sorts. A mass awakening. I certainly don’t know where it will go or how it will play out, but I will tell you one thing for sure. The old rules…the ones that allowed the rich to control the workers…are kaput!!! They are no longer broadly useful. That whole little chatty-chat-chat middle class birdcage no longer works anymore. I was stuck in one for four hours last week in Westchester, NY…a bedroom county for the middle./upper middle class NYC workers that a good friend of mine has labeled “Wastechester.” I was trapped there while i waited for a repair on my car in a glitzy upper-middle class dealership. I didn’t fit in physically…dressed too far down…and neither did my Bronx, street-parked, 7 year-old car, but it was on an extended, lemon law-enforced warranty repair and they couldn’t refuse. The TV was on in the waiting room the whole time…nothing but bad or worse news, of course…and middle/upper middle class worker bees trouped through there reading magazines that hyped their middle class aspirations and hustling their gigs on their laptops and cellphones. Surrounded by them, by the chattering secretaries, the TV and the macho-joking salesmen and “service managers,” I felt like I had died and been sent to some sort of 1990’s sitcom-inspired hell.The only authentic contact that I had…eye to eye, face to face, mano à mano…during the entire time that I was there was with a couple of brownish Latino gofer parking attendants at the shop and the mostly Latino and Greek staff at a diner down the street. The rest? Like being cast as an extra in a rerun of some lame ’90s situation comedy.
Disgusting!!!
It won’t hold, this particular control mechanism. It’s already run out of most of its steam.
What’s next?
Damned if I know.
May you be born(e) into interesting times.
Later…
AG
P.S. Obama and his $1000+ casual suits would have it in very well here. All full of false cheer, not a sincere word or glance in a truckful.