While what Susan Glasser says below is accurate, I think it’s a bit premature and doesn’t even begin to tell the whole story.
From the start of the inquiry into his scheme to pressure Ukraine to launch investigations for his personal political benefit, the President has defined winning as making sure that impeachment remained an entirely partisan issue, with Democrats pushing it and Republicans standing with him to oppose it. By that standard, he was winning before the hearings—and he is still winning after them. If anything, his political hand is now even stronger as Republicans, presented with incontrovertible facts, have chosen not to accept them—and to become even more vociferous in Trump’s defense.
On one obvious level, the decision to impeach the president reflects a genuine and principled desire to remove him from office. But removal has always been a choice that lies with the Republicans in the Senate. And, in any case, it’s a process that must proceed in steps, beginning with convincing the Democratic caucus in the House to begin the process at all. The Ukraine matter finally provided a crime so plain and simple, and so egregious, that all but a handful of Democratic congresspeople supported launching the inquiry, and there’s a possibility that the vote to impeach him will be unanimous. If it’s not, it should be easy to identify the motives of the holdouts. Tulsi Gabbard is a troll, and Collin Peterson represents a very red district in the Iron Range of Minnesota.
The Democrats have done an adequate job of gathering the evidence to prove their case against the president. But they’re not done yet. The case will move to the Judiciary Committee and there will be more hearings. It remains to be seen if the Intelligence Committee will continue to conduct their investigation and interview new fact witnesses, but we’ll definitely get more of the story as well as testimony from historians and legal scholars who will explain the impeachment process to the American people.
Whether or not any of this convinces some Republicans to vote to impeach or remove the president, the president will be impeached and stand trial. That’s at least a permanent scar on his record that is at least as much of a precedent as an eventual acquittal will be a kind of vindication and precedent.
In the end, the conduct could not stand. And if the Republicans want to overlook or excuse it, then it should be as painful for them as possible. If the American people see them giving Trump a pass on this, they’ll be able to go to the ballot box and register their displeasure. I think the likely result will be familiar. Trump will have done something bad and someone else will lose their job or go to jail for it. Maybe that’s the best we can do. But, if it is, it’s certainly not our fault. It’s not for lack of courage or lack of trying.
And, again, it’s still early in this process. All the facts have not come out. The true extent of the Republicans’ pain is not yet on display. Ultimately, it’s the GOP’s grave, and if they want to do all the digging, that’s on them. In this context, I don’t know that it makes a lot of sense to say that they, or Trump, is winning.
From Trump’s point of view, the only thing that could be a win is for the Republicans to stick with him. Otherwise, he leaves office in disgrace and, as much shame as that guy carries, I think we can agree there’s no way he’d do it voluntarily.
The Republicans know this. Trump isn’t leaving office absent a big fight and he’ll do nothing to assuage the outrage of his followers. In fact, he’ll stoke it to 11. Having weighed the options, the entire party has made clear they’ll stand with Trump. That could change but it’s not likely. I’m not at all sure that’s a win for the Republican party. They were already on a crash course with demographic reality. If Democrats message this well (by no means a given), this could greatly accelerate the coming crack-up. Perhaps enough that I’ll see it in my lifetime. Perhaps.
PS: On that score, I think it would be wise to include a charge associated with putting children in cages. That’s a no-brainer. Will further draw the partisan divide and alienate a few who might have maybe been drawn to our side. But I think it’s so compelling to so many that it far outweighs whatever drag it might create.
So they asked her if she thought all that’s going on now is just to distract us from what is going on in Vietnam. She agreed. And they asked him if he should be allowed to keep the recordings he made in the oval office and he agrees bc he has diplomatic immunity. And what about Deep Throat? She thought that sounded sexual and more fake news. These are our citizens. You don’t really expect to change them do you?
You can’t win an argument with an irrational person, and the behavior of every Repub on the committee makes clear that they are biased and irrational, and that evidence cannot move them–they (and 40-some percent of the citizenry) are immune from evidence and reason, and thus the preconditions for democracy imagined by the Framers no longer obtain or exist in the United States. We will find out if it was “wise” as a purely political matter for the Dems to have forced the issue, but there is no doubt that it was compelled as a democratic and constitutional matter. While it is likely that our degenerated and failed electorate cannot be made to care, it was the patriotic thing to do, and we can at least take comfort in the fact that the Framers would certainly have thought it essential, when confronted with a lawbreaking, unethical, unqualified demagogue like Der Trumper—the very sort of creature the electoral college was supposed to protect us from, but now (ironically) a creature forced upon the nation by that very same (failed) electoral college.
Conservatives profess to believe that their “team” did did spectacularly well this week, while it seems to me an objective observer would see them as gibbering, screaming idiots ala lead-off hitters Nunes and Jordan. There will be an even greater circus ahead in the Repub senate, with a corrupt partisan “conservative” chief justice running the proceedings and allowing all manner of “defenses”, such as dragging the Bidens in for testimony regarding their “corruption”. There’s no way around this, as the “conservative” movement demands that our government and constitution must be destroyed, and the likes of Lindsey G and Moscow Mitch agree. But the fight is a necessity, nevertheless—whatever the outcome.
Ultimately the question is not “Is Trump Winning”, but “Is Democracy Losing”? Given the unanimous[!] vote by Repubs against even an impeachment inquiry, and the simply incredible display of the Repubs on the Intelligence Committee (an oxymoron for them at least) this week, one has sadly to say that it certainly appears to be…and that there is little evidence of “pain” for Repubs!
Some enterprising young reporters actually asked Trump supporters those questions and more. Those are the answers. Now imagine someone thinking the Vietnam war was still ongoing and the democrats were causing it? Some of this is utter nonsense. These people don’t even know what decade they live in. So asking them to support impeachment is idiocy. And if public opinion has anything to do with getting republicans to vote to convict Trump we have a hard road ahead. You have to see the expressions on their faces when asked that nonsense and more to know nothing registers. So the chances of conviction are probably nil, but that said I would love that miracle.
Folks (to quote Joe Biden), you don’t dismantle a corrupt presidency with a couple of weeks of good hearings. It took a lot of political and economic power to put Trump in office; it’s going to take a lot to remove him.
This was a good two weeks for Democrats and for democracy. Now go enjoy Thanksgiving, come back the week after and do another 2-3 weeks like that. Take a break for Christmas and New Year’s, and then start up again in January. To cite that great progressive leader, Jacob Riis, and his stonecutter’s credo: keep pounding the rock.
But it is not getting us anywhere. The needle hasn’t barely moved. Schiff is ready to file his report with the Judiciary in the next week or two. I understand he may amend it if anything material comes up. Otherwise he is done. I take it to mean he is not going to wait for appeals and such to get some more testimony in.
Acquittal in the senate will be a Pyrrhic victory for Trump and the Republicans.
I hope but I am not betting on that. For them this will be a truly great victory over the lying democrats. I hope it will increase turnout sufficiently of some sane people to beat the fools. ..
Certainly, the ultimate arbiters are the voters. Democrats will have made their case against Trump, and Republicans will stand behind them. Then it is up to the electorate to decide if they care about this or not.
That said, having even an handful of R votes would be immensely important for signaling to the politically uninvolved (which is most of the country) that Trump really did do something wrong. That’s why Will Hurd’s indication that he will not vote to impeach is so disappointing.
In the Senate, I will count it as a victory if we get even one R vote, and a major victory if we get more than one (perhaps Romney and Murkowski). A majority vote (>50) for conviction on any count would be a triumph almost beyond belief. A loss would be if the Rs keep their caucus together and we do not.
It is infuriating to see reporter after reporter ask Democrats “DO YOU HAVE ANY REPUBLICAN SUPPORT FOR IMPEACHMENT AND REMOVAL FROM OFFICE? HOW WILL YOU GET ANY? SPEAKER PELOSI SAID IMPEACHMENT WAS DIVISIVE SO THE CASE HAS TO BE BIPARTISAN OR YOU SHOULDN’T DO IT. THIS IS VIOLATING PELOSI’S STANDARD ISN’T IT? SHOULDN’T YOU LEGISLATE INSTEAD OF WASTING TIME ON A DOOMED EFFORT???”
The same journalists could choose to query Republicans about the shamefulness of the President’s actions as persistently and thoroughly and loudly as they question Democrats in this way. They could also let the constant horse race narrative and Republican talking points go when they question Democrats.
The media’s thirsty desire to normalize the thuggish crime syndicate which is the modern Republican Party is a big problem for us
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First, glad to see you back here.
Second, given the well known complicity of the corporate media in the failure of the nation, it really is up to the Dems being asked these questions to turn the tables on the worthless teevee “journalists”. Perhaps responses such as “I see you asking Dems that question quite a lot. The question really is why the Repub party has unanimously decided to ignore and condone the evidence of abuse of office which has been uncovered”, or some such. The Repubs (in building the “conservative” movement) used counterattacks on media questions almost exclusively. Since the corporate media is so willing to do the Repubs’ dirty work on the Trumper impeachment and so committed to the useless horse race narrative, Dems have no choice but to push back against their worthless “coverage”.
Agreed.