I know that many hundreds (at least) of Syrians died in an attack that appears to have been chemical in nature, but I still cringe when I read stuff like the following in the New York Times:
Among American officials, there was a growing belief that chemical weapons had been used in the latest attack, early Wednesday east of Damascus — potentially the worst of its kind since Saddam Hussein used chemical weapons against the Kurds in Iraq in the 1980s — and little doubt that anyone but Mr. Assad’s forces would have used them.
I am okay with the “growing belief” that chemical weapons were used because that does, in fact, match up with the kind of injuries that we’re seeing. Obviously, it needs to be confirmed. As a factual matter, I can even understand why it could be a more lethal attack than the one Iraq carried out against the Kurds in the 1980’s. But “worse than Saddam” sets off some triggers for me, as does referencing the Halabja poison gas attack at all. I’m sorry, but the notion that we had to invade Iraq because he had gassed his own people fifteen years earlier is still an argument that haunts me. I know, I know, the attack in Syria happened only two days ago, but still…
Which gets us to the “little doubt that anyone but Mr. Assad’s forces would have used them.” I don’t know how finely grained our telemetry is or whether we had clear satellite coverage (I doubt it at two in the morning), so I don’t know how confident we are about where the rockets were launched from. I mean, let’s look very carefully at the following paragraph:
An opposition official described an assault that began shortly after 2 a.m., when the rockets, which they said were equipped with chemical weapons, were launched. Two were fired from a bridge on the highway from Damascus to Homs; the others were launched from a Sironex factory in the Qabun neighborhood of the Syrian capital. The Assad government has denied involvement, and Russian officials have accused the rebels of staging the attack.
An opposition official, who has every incentive to frame the Syrian government, said that the rockets were launched at 2 a.m. That’s fair enough; you can confirm that on Twitter. But is he the source for the next sentence about the launch-sites? From the flow of the article, it would appear so, but he isn’t actually sourced for those facts. Not that I trust the denials of the Syrians and the Russians, either, but someone has to be right here.
I’ll be candid. If you are fighting on the anti-Assad side, your only hope of winning in the near-term is if you can convince the world that the Assad regime launched a chemical attack. You have powerful or, at least, well-resourced allies in places like Saudi Arabia and Qatar that can probably secure a few chemical weapons. All the incentive seems to lie with the opposition.
On the other hand, U.N. weapons inspectors had scarcely set foot in Syria to investigate prior allegations of chemical attacks when this attack happened. Why would Syria try to prove their innocence in the prior attacks by allowing inspections, and then launch a chemical attack in their capital?
So, what really concerns me is the fact that American officials doubt anyone but the Assad regime “would” have used them. If they wrote “could,” I’d be more comfortable that they were relying on collected intelligence instead of mere psychology. Logic says that the Assad regime would have almost no incentive to do this and to do it now. They’ve been winning the war lately. They’re trying to clear their name from previous allegations.
Regardless of which side launched the attack, the logical victims would be the same (people in areas controlled or disputed by the rebels). So, the identity of the victims doesn’t help us. The point is, the only thing stopping the rebels from carrying out such an attack would be lack of opportunity and moral qualms. And I wouldn’t place too much faith in either of those two things.
So, we need officials with a little more imagination, please. And the facts. We already had the Gulf of Tonkin and the Iraq WMD fiasco, thank you.
We already had the Gulf of Tonkin and the Iraq WMD fiasco, thank you.
Hey, third time’s the charm, amirite?
I sincerely doubt it.
And I’m only raising questions, since the NYT is reporting that our officials are not.
.
The White House knew of the Halabja massacre. The intelligence community blamed it on Iran. Remember that pesky war Saddam Hussein started to expand his territory. Khomeini uses the war to cement his power and the Islamic state of Iran. Thanking Ronald Reagan and George H. Bush. How many Iranians died due to Saddam’s use of chemical warfare, didin’t the CIA supply the intelligence from our satellites to target the Iranians. The Ugly American.
So, what really concerns me is the fact that American officials doubt anyone but the Assad regime “would” have used them.
I wouldn’t take the Times’ reporter’s assertion about the mindset of unnamed American officials as gospel. Wasn’t that same paper also telling us that American officials were increasingly confident about the last alleged chemical attack, right before Obama went on TV and shot down the rumors?
If there are officials who are skeptical that the Assad regime did this, then the reporter should find them.
Possibly, but that might well be easier said than done, and I would be really leery of taking a thinly-sourced claim like the one in the article as being particularly strong evidence that an official consensus is forming.
Should, yes. Do you think he was trying and couldn’t?
If I take him literally, he found more than no doubt because “little” is greater than none.
But a conventional reading of that sentence would interpret it as basic unanimity. If he found a doubter, he should have gotten them to say something even if off the record. If he didn’t try, then he’s not doing his job and doesn’t understand the dynamics at play on the global stage as it pertains to Syria.
I strongly hope that we are not seeing the start of the “we must intervene for humanitarian purposes” campaign. I do not mind helping the rebels, but boots on the ground? No, no, no…
Which rebels? Those fundamentalist Muslim fighters supported by the KSA or Qatar?
Yeah, that’s another issue…
Yeah, same issue we ignored in the early 1980s, but that public ignorance has been great for the MIC.
.
You didn’t get the Obama message why he hired humanitarian hawk Samantha Power as Ambassador to the UN? Ms Power grew up as a journalist in Yugoslavia during the Bosnia War. Yes the same genocide Ms Clinton learned to lead the US on international policy. (See Syria)
Senate confirmation hearing of Samantha Power a farce, she is married to Cass Sustein. It’s a Harvard affair.
Obama: US is now facing a ‘more abbreviated’ time frame on decision for Syria, Egypt response
See the JPost comments, just about sums it up for US failed policy.
I agree with you on no to military intervention (of any kind, not just boots on the ground), and disagree with wanting to help the “rebels”. Do you know who those people ARE? Do you really believe they are a better option than Asad? I KNOW they are not.
“I’m sorry, but the notion that we had to invade Iraq because he had gassed his own people fifteen years earlier is still an argument that haunts me.”
No apology needed. In war, truth is the first casualty. We are always being played and the warmongers know too well the art of stirring the militaristic souls of Americans.
Some of us might remember the emotional, gut-wrenching testimony that helped tip the US to war in Gulf War I. It was later revealed to be entirely faked:
As was the claim that the Iraq army was massed on the border of the KSA.
It was very lonely for the few back then that could see through that whole propaganda program. As few as 10% as the height of the popularity for GHWB’s war.
10%?
Quite possibly a perfectly accurate assessment of the percentage of people in the U.S. who were immune to media-trancing at that time.
Over 150+ plus years, scientists have been studying the ability and/or inability of people to be hypnotized. A good, simple précis of these studies suggests that …95 percent of people can be hypnotized to some extent (with most scoring in the midrange on the Stanford Scale. Almost all researchers seem to agree that no one can be hypnotized who seriously does not want to undergo the process.
5% immune and 5% so repulsed by the media-trancing machine that it did not work on them?
Sounds about right to me.
Our job? (My job, anyway as far as I see it regarding this subject.) Our job is to tell people that they are in some very real sense being “hypnotized” by the media. More and more younger people are waking up to this fact. I know this on extensive personal experience with my 25 year old son’s friends and also because I am in constant contact…peer-to-peer contact, mostly…with many 20-35 year old professional musicians on a daily basis. But the 35+ group? DUH!!! Habituated since childhood to staring at screens that tell them what to do and how to do it. Hard to break out of a trance implanted that deeply that early in life.
Keep trying, Marie2.
We do keep trying…bet on it.
The alternative is totally unacceptable.
Bet on that as well.
Later…
AG
Great comment. In the few days before Gulf War One, I was making preparations for a long trip to India. The opposition to heavy US military involvement was still getting some small play in the media. I arrived in Calcutta 3 days after the bombing started and was watching street protests against the US action.
After I returned home 5 weeks later, a lot of people included the phrase “support the troops” a lot more in their conversation. It seemed almost chant-like.
I thought about that at some length and realized I could support the welfare of individuals in military and still disagree with the mission and still disagree with the career choice these (often very young) people made.
But the warmongers had taken over by then.
One of the better and definitely more long-lasting MIC propaganda programs. Almost as effective in 2003 as it was in 1991.
That argument is flawed because the generation that has been most “habituated since childhood to staring at screens …” are those under 35. Not anyone over 35 began 24/7 staring at his/her personal cell phone screen when he/she was twelve years old.
Yes, but…the screens of the younger generation were not so Borg-like in their lockstep, clomp-clomp-clomping presentation of “the message.” You say it yourself, Marie2.
Right.
But screens are just screens. It’s what is on them that does the hypnotizing. 35 years ago…30, even 25 years ago…those screens were almost exclusively mainstream media screens. Not much variation appeared in the message.
It was implicit in the news and it was equally implicit in the rest of the programming. Kid’s shows, all sorts of advertising and entertainment…the very fabric of American society was constantly built up as “good.” The “good” guys always won, and they were always upstanding Americans of one sort or another. Then came the computer revolution, and suddenly the united front of the media started to to come apart. Screens had a multiplicity of messages and one could pick and choose among them. It is fairly easy for a hypnotist to put someone under and then tell them that they are a chicken, but have you ever heard a hypnotist give the subject a number of choices?
Too complicated.
Choices imply freedom.
One choice repeated over and over again implies servitude. The hypnotized subject no longer believes that there are any other choices. It’s “Be a chicken” or bust.
The under-35s have been given a larger palette of choices.
Same same with cable TV. Not just seven channels, each one purveying slightly different versions of the same culture, but 400 channels. One says “Sex is dirty” and three say “Sex is fun. Watch this!!!” One says “America. Good!!!” and another says “Wait a minute!!! Which “America?’ “
A sort of freedom, no?
That’s what I am seeing, anyway.
Later…
AG
Lord, Booman. Have you forgotten about old-fashioned spying? I mean…really!! There is absolutely no doubt that intelligence services from all over the world have multiple assets intimately involved on both sides of this conflict. CIA? MI6? The Mossad? Whatever they are calling the KGB this month? Other organizations that are so secret we don’t even know their acronyms? Please. The major governments intimately involved in this inning of The Great Game “know” what really went down. The only question that remains…the real question…lies in how they are going to try to use that information for their own purposes.
There is a saying in poker that goes something like this:
Ditto here.
The U.S. has apparently…so far…decided that an anti-Assad strategy is the one that best serves U.S. interests. It really makes no difference whatsoever how strong or weak the U.S. hand is in this particular deal of the war cards…whether they have accurate information or not and whether that information blames the rebels, Assad’s forces or (and this is quite possible) some other third party that is trying to light further fire underneath this conflict for its own benefit. The U.S. is making another anti-Assad raise here.
Always remember:
The PermaGov lies even when the information that it releases is to some degree “truthful.” It lies about its aims in using that information.
Bet on it.
And The Great Game continues.
Control of the North African/Middle Eastern/West Asian/Islamic oil lands and their surrounding powers.
Blood for oil.
As our Peace President so accurately stated way back in 2006 regarding other aspects of the governance of a vast empire :
And as he also quite accurately stated in the prologue to his second book, “The Audacity Of Hope”:
A blank screen neither “lies” nor “does not lie.” Thus it remains blameless.
Or so it thinks…
We shall see.
Soon enough.
We shall see.
Blank screens lose too, and losers get blamed.
Bet on that as well.
Watch.
Later…
AG
“Response” does not necessarily mean “military response”. It’s fairly clear who’s pushing for intervention and why. And it is interesting the R2P Ambassador Powers dodged a Security Council meeting that was discussing this issue.
I’m going out on a limb and say the US is not going to intervene more that we are already doing, which according to the news media seems like some CIA activities trying to sort out who is who and some training in Jordan while Saudi Arabia and Qatar foot the bill for the arms shipments into the country.
If there is a military response, my sense is that it will involve drones more than boots on the ground. But getting Saudi Arabia to agree to let the US use the drone base there to conduct attacks on al Nusr fronts and command posts seems kinda of a heavy lift.
In Egypt, the options are all symbolic and insubstantial.
But getting Saudi Arabia to agree to let the US use the drone base there to conduct attacks on al Nusr fronts and command posts seems kinda of a heavy lift.
Indeed.
Malaki, on the other hand…
Ah yes – drones would be EVER so much better than boots on the ground.
Sigh!
Forgive me for getting preoccupied with the other grand story of the moment, but I see a direct connection between the difficulty of getting reliable information out of the chaotic situation in Syria, and our own government’s recent demonstration of its own unreliability.
Whatever sins Glenn Greenwald may have committed, he doesn’t have the power to send even a single soldier into battle. The story for me is how we can’t trust what our own government is saying, because there appear to be so many wheels within wheels that any rationalization for action or inaction is immediately suspect. I had hoped that the singular talents of Kremlinologists would fade into history after the demise of the Soviet Union, but it appears we need three and four levels of analysis for every development now more than ever.
I confess, when I first heard about it my first thought was to wonder if Israel had done a False Flag.
Currently I’m thinking that Assad is most likely to have done it but we need to make sure the Inspectors have access.
But even if he did, what will be the outcomes of going into Syria? Even if we win (and what will the Russians do?), the result will be a slaughter of Christians, Alawites and Druze instead of a slaughter of Sunnis, and either a second secular dictatorship, a massively unstable government, or a theocracy plus all the causalities from war and insurgency to the Syrians AND to us.
Here’s where I think that US foreign policy continually runs off the rails–ignoring this question:
What exactly does “win” mean?
Military action has always been an instrument of politics and the results of military action have to be seen in political terms. For a half century, the US could be militarily overwhelming and completely lose the thread of the politics. That turned good situations into massive failures and salvageable ones into disasters.
You have done an excellent analysis of the resulting possibilities.
This is the very difficult question. How do the Syrians themselves sort out their own politics without outside interference? What could the US or other countries do to permit that sorting out to occur. Typical diplomatic strategies are conferences of frontline states or conferences of major powers so that they collectively can act as honest brokers. Is there the possibility of that even happening given that Israel is a frontline state and Iran and Saudi Arabia are certainly interested regional powers pulling in opposite directions?
The Asad regime is not now and has never been a sectarian regime, so why people keep assuming they would slaughter Sunnis is hard for me to understand. Well, no it’s not, really, because even to a lot of fairly sophisticated Americans everything in the Arab world seems to come down to sectarianism.
And not sure on what you base your thinking that Asad is most likely to have done it. So far all other allegations of the regime using chemical weapons have turned out to be bogus, and always, always the crimes of the “rebels” are downplayed or blamed on the regime.
There are no good guys here, but there are least bad options, and the “rebels” are not among them.
On first part, I agree. If the Assad regime was seen as sectarian, then Iraqi Sunnis would not have fled there for security during the American occupation and sectarian war in Iraq.
But, recently, the Assad regime enlisted Hizbollah in their fight against the rebels, and that signaled a sectarian turn.
Don’t you think?
Actually, Booman, no, I don’t think. Hezbollah is a long-time ally of the Syrian regime, and I think it is much more a matter of allies supporting allies than of a sectarian turn by Asad.
Nasrallah and Assad’s alliance in this case is more strategic than sectarian.
Hezbollah’s intervention in Syria makes excellent sense for Hezbollah. They have excellent reason to suspect that interrupting their lines of supply to Iran is part of the purpose of (the Gulf money behind) this uprising. Moreover, pretty much every non-Arab or non-Whabbist muslim has good reason to fear Saudi Arabia’s religious project in the Middle East.
Assad for his part needs whatever help he can get and Hezbollah are excellent fighters.
By likely, I mean more likely than not of all the parties since has access to the weapons, but again I still reserve judgement. Remember, my earlier comments in regard to this were to caution against automatically blaming Assad for this.
My comments regarding Sunnis was intended to be a short hand because as far as I was aware most of the rebels are Sunnis though it’s not a “Sunni uprising” in a theological sense or in total. (I believe AQ and the Saudis like to paint it as such for their own purposes, and at the speech that convinced the generals to ax Morsi I believe this was also suggested).
I admit without reservation that I have no idea who the least bad guys are here.
I referred to the least bad option, I think, and not least bad guys. Hard for me to say who the least bad guys are at this point.
There is no question in my mind that the least bad option is for the regime to survive in power for the immediate future. That would certainly be preferable to the Wahabi/Salafi gangs that would destroy Syria’s wonderfully diverse and pluralistic society and take women back hundreds of years, or even any of the secular factions who have a lust for power, and little to no clue how to organize themselves let alone how to stabilize the situation and run the country.
The way this thing began looked so promising, and Asad was prepared to make reforms. Tragically, he was unable to make as many reforms as quickly as some of the opposition demanded, and things began to turn violent. Then other groups, including outside groups decided to join the fray, and what we have now is a tragic situation with no truly good solution.
I agree with this entirely, Hurria.
About all I can add is that the population of Syria is far less confused about this than we are. A large percentage of the population from a broad variety of backgrounds remained loyal to Assad. I don’t think they are in doubt of their fate should the Islamists amongst the rebels seize power.
A few articles I read back in July about the ongoing evolution of the rebel forces in Syria:
http://www.smh.com.au/world/syrian-rebels-defect-to-government-20130724-2qig1.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/10198632/Syria-disillusioned-rebels-drift
-back-to-take-Assad-amnesty.html
“There is no doubt in our mind that Saddam Hussein has an active chemical and biological warfare effort. The evidence is there – the question is whether the inspectors are allowed to find it.”
-John Bolton, 2002
Makes an interesting contrast, doesn’t it?
How very presidential.
http://www.salon.com/2013/08/22/john_bolton_may_run_for_president/
Well this should help out in Syria.
US Sending Saudi Arabia Thousands of Cluster Bombs, Despite International Ban
Who exactly are the Saudis intending to use these banned weapons on? Post-war clean up is going to be a huge mess in yet another country, it seems.
But jobs!
Who exactly are the Saudis intending to use these banned weapons on?
Who exactly do they use all of the other weaponry we send them on? (Hint: not much of anybody.)
I’m not sure why you think the sale of American weaponry to the KSA augurs something important, or what it’s supposed to have to do with Syria. The rebels don’t have an air force, and the Saudis haven’t been flying air missions for them.
Then why are they buying $410 million worth of them?
Yes, if there’s one thing I’ve learned in my life, it’s that countries rarely spend tons of money on weapons they’ll never use.
Wait, what?
One thing I’ve learned in my life is that pithy quips are no substitute for facts and logic.
Did you assume Saudi Arabia was going to attack the Syrian government when they bought $29.5 billion worth of F-15s in 2010?
Did you assume the Emirates were going to attack Syria when they bought 26 F-16s earlier this year?
Let’s take a step back: do you two know that the Saudis have been buying American weaponry since the 1950s?
But but but but… I was already with my pithy suggestion they were going to use them against witches!
Actually I agree with you. The Saudis are supporting the rebels, but doing so with obviously American gear could be a bit too much in terms of diplomacy. On the other hand…. Did you know the Saudis were supplying the rebels with (ironically) Russian Anti-Tank rockets?
For the same reason they buy everything else. For the same reason they bought the F-16s that can carry them: so they can have a strong Air Force.
What is it about this purchase that seems like its anything other than business as usual?
On the grandstand:
“Unless Pres Obama expects imminent attack on U.S., use of force is unconstitutional & illegal.”
It is also clearly illegal under the UN Charter and other instruments of international law.
Exactly my feelings on this. There is a R2P Hawk faction in Washington that will be trying to persuade President Obama to stick the US’s foot into this mess, so a bit of paranoia is warranted.
The Obama administration wants to keep Asad going as the enemy du jour, and to portray the “opposition” (as if there were one opposition) as the “good guys”, so of course they are going to frame the Asad regime for it.
The greatest likelihood is either that the chemical attack claim is false (it’s not as if we have not seen this before in Syria and elsewhere when “we” had designated someone as an enemy), or that some “opposition” faction are responsible for it. The least likely scenario is that the regime is responsible, for all the reasons you mentioned, and more.
This is a filthy, dirty business, and there are no good guys.
The Obama administration wants to keep Asad going as the enemy du jour, and to portray the “opposition” (as if there were one opposition) as the “good guys”, so of course they are going to frame the Asad regime for it.
This would be a much more plausible theory if we hadn’t just seen this movie, about claimed chemical weapons attacks by the Assad regime against the rebels, and if it hadn’t ended with President Obama knocking down the rumors.
http://patdollard.com/2013/01/white-house-doubts-syria-chemical-weapons-report/
http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/20/world/meast/syria-civil-war
They want to frame the Syrian government, but the last time the opportunity to do so fell into their laps they did exactly the opposite?
I think the narrative might be outrunning the facts here.
IMO opinion “the Obama administration” is too broad an attribution of what seems to be going on here.
There seem to be sharply contending views among various players in the Administration’s foreign policy and national security establishment. And more importantly in Congress, which is why I think that Justin Amash breaking with the McCain-Graham position might bring a little political space for the President to back away from this provocative story.
I found the story about the Navy moving cruise missile ships closer to Syria interesting in how fast the military walked it back as a sign of an imminent decision.
Of course the chemical attack claim is meant to push the US to attack the Assad regime. But the President has always been careful to use the phrase “appropriate action” as the threat. It is just read as military action through habit of what the US tends to do.
I’m hoping saner heads prevail and the President is left not having to make a critical decision.
It’s been fifty years since the President has really been in control of the foreign policy of the US. Critical decisions are above the President’s pay grade.
I think one thing that they all share is a desire to keep the spotlight on Asad as the bad guy du jour.