I feel totally unequipped to talk intelligently about transgender issues. Frankly, I don’t think I’ve developed a very mature philosophy or even attitude about the issue, but at least I’m self-aware. I understand Kevin Williamson’s basic argument, although I am really only sympathetic to one narrow part of it. And, by sympathetic, I don’t mean that I agree with it. I mean that I think his challenge needs to be answered.
I think the American Psychiatric Association (APA) was correct to remove gender identity disorder from its list of mental illnesses. Mr. Williamson obviously disagrees. But Mr. Williamson makes the following point:
We have created a rhetoric of “gender identity” that is disconnected from biological sexual fact, and we have done so largely in the service of enabling the sexual mutilation of physically healthy men and women (significantly more men) by medical authorities who should be barred by professional convention if not by conscience from the removal of healthy organs (and limbs, more on that later), an act that by any reasonable standard ought to be considered mutilation rather than therapy. This is not to discount the feelings of people who suffer from gender-identity disorders — to the contrary, those feelings must be taken into account in determining courses of treatment for people who have severe personality disorders. But those subjective experiences do not render inconsequential the biological facts: A man who believes he is a woman trapped in a man’s body, no matter the intensity of his feeling, is no such thing. The duty of the medical profession is not to encourage and enable delusions, but to help those who suffer from them to cope with them. It is worth noting here that as a matter of law and a matter of social expectation, the fiction of sex change is treated as the paramount good: We are not expected to treat those who have undergone the procedure as men who have taken surgical and hormonal steps to impersonate women (or vice versa) but as people who have literally changed sex, which they have not — no more than Dennis Avner, the famous “Stalking Cat” who attempted to physically transform himself into a tiger, changed species.
The only piece of that argument that I have trouble dismissing is the idea that medical professionals have an ethical dilemma when faced with a patient who wants them to physically alter their body in a way that would ordinarily be considered mutilation. To put it in the most juvenile terms, if some man comes to you and says, “I feel like a woman, please remove my penis,” I think you have to consider the possibility that psychiatric help is preferred to doing the operation. Admittedly, this an extreme case, but faced with it, how do you best follow the Hippocratic Oath to “first do no harm”?
Is it sufficient to satisfy yourself that the patient isn’t suffering from some transitory desire? That they haven’t had some traumatic experience? That they appear to be healthy and of sound mind?
Do you need to be convinced that only a sex change will alleviate their mental distress?
This is in a different category from recognizing and respecting gender dysphoria, and making accommodations for it in the law so that people are not mistreated or discriminated against. We’re talking about operating on people. We’re talking about sound medical and psychiatric practice.
I can respect Bradley Manning’s wishes and refer to him as Chelsea Manning. I can go along with his desire to use the women’s bathroom. But I don’t know that I am qualified to approve his sex change, nor do I have much of a clue of how one might develop ethical practices that would serve as a guide for those who would do the surgery.
Like I said, I haven’t thought much about these issues. I’m not even pretending to have any kind of expert opinion.
I’m willing to listen.
I thought you were usually required to seek psychological or psychiatric counsel prior to having a sex change operation.
You are correct.
I’m with you on this one Booman.
As far as Chelsea…..she has had an extremely traumatic experience the last couple of years. She has been locked up, beaten up, suffered abuse of various kinds that most of us cannot comprehend. Now she faces years in prison.
It is very possible a person might want to escape into themselves after all that.
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Yes, but apparently this was already the case before Manning went into the army. So before all the government abuse.
Yes, ‘apparently’. But I think the point is that Manning is not in a position to receive the counseling and testing needed to proceed. There is no reliable way to test her.
Lots of people in this discussion seem to be confusing ‘normal’ circumstances with Chelsea’s situation. But the thing is….nothing about what is happening to her is ‘normal’.
There are guidelines for this and have been for quite a while. Here’s the version from 2011
http://www.wpath.org/documents/Standards%20of%20Care%20V7%20-%202011%20WPATH.pdf
The World Professional Association for Transgender Health is a great place to start for more information.
That looks excellent. I will be passing that along to a psychologist friend who works in a high security facility and has a couple of patients for whom this guidance applies.
Exactly. Surgeons don’t face this “ethical dilemma” because long-time standards of care for transgendered people have required that they go through a certain number of years of counseling, hormone therapy, and identifying and living as a member of the new gender before surgery will happen. The medical and mental health professions have put more thought into this than the National Review gives them credit for.
My knowledge of this is distinctly second- and third-hand, but I know that many transgendered persons never go through sex reassignment surgery, and that getting such surgery isn’t an easy process, and requires, among other things, psychological evaluation beforehand.
I’m just going to stay out of this one because I cannot believe you linked to this piece of transphobic garbage in a not 100% dismissive manner. I’m not in he right state of mind to respond with more “meat” in the post but I definitely think you need to listen more. At least you’re open…
in all cultures gender is culturally not “biologically” defined and in different cultures defined differently. For example, in Classical Athens gender was defined in categories of law; in Rome in categories of class. Anyway, the biological argument is a red herring. Last I spent time thinking about it, I concluded that in the American culture gender is defined in terms of sexuality, though all physicality seems to be reduced to sexuality – hopefully that will change. it’s a problem. Many cultures had, and some still have, 3 or 4 genders cuturally defined. with whom one had sexual relations was not a defining aspect or issue, the definition had to do with social roles and tasks. Anyway, this is what contemporary gender studies programs look into. I highly recommend doing some reading on it.
Do you have any reading recommendations?
I find it fascinating that we live in a culture that largely has been assuming there are only two genders, yet even at a physical, genetic level that is clearly an oversimplification. I wonder if our binary political system influences American fondness for binary thinking. Why only “two sides to every issue”?
But given that there are obvious biological, genetic influences on gender identity, we should not be dismissing desires or the psychology of people as “abnormal” when most are just trying to deal with who they are.
Williamson misses all this. He is trying to stuff anywhere from 4-6 genders into 2, because defining who gets to go into which of the two available restrooms is his motivating example.
yes, but I’ll ask some colleagues for suggestions too then post some. I’m traveling right now and not near my books, but sitting in the airport for a couple hours now so may post something now, if not in a week or so.
there’s a fair amount of cultural anthropology literature on the Berdache [third gender, physical males who took on female tasks] in native american cultures. A third gender, the muxe’ is current in Zapotec culture in the Isthmus of Tehuantepec, Mexico, though the perception is somewhat absorbed into gay liberation issues at present. Gender roles in Zapotec culture are very interesting and unique
here’s an authoritative book on contemporary Zapotec
http://www.amazon.ca/Isthmus-Zapotecs-Womens-Cultural-Context/dp/0881330531/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&i
e=UTF8&qid=1377414308&sr=1-2
The following looks interesting and discussion will be in terms of how gender is defined. (I have not read this.)
http://www.openisbn.com/isbn/0534509037/
It’s good to read examples I think. my thumbnail summary: in traditional societies gender is defined by tasks. Classical Greece is interesting because gender became a matter of law. Sophocles’ Antigone is illuminating in that regard.
Thank you very much!
I checked out your last link, and if you want to follow some of the Indian perspective on hijra and other genders please follow the links I mention in my comment here:
http://www.boomantribune.com/comments/2013/8/23/225855/476/51#51
Ghosh, who passed away in May, was one of the top director talents India ever produced.
Some cultural context: India as a whole is arguably more culturally diverse than all the countries of Europe combined. Many Americans associate the term Bollywood with Indian cinema, but that is a misapplication. Bollywood is famous for cranking out Hindi language films that feature popular stars in formulaic movies. But Indian cinema is far wider and incorporates other languages and cultures within India. West Bengal is just one of those other cultures. And West Bengal culture has ties to Bangladesh (East Bengal) that the partition of greater India hasn’t entirely severed.
Very interesting, Errol. Did not know any of that.
thanks
I’m a Manning supporter, in general, but he can pay for his sex change on his own dime.
Didn’t Manning pay taxes on her own time when she was earning a salary from the military? Why is it that some people assume all tax dollars are theirs?
I supported Manning thru his trial and I think he should get a lighter sentence but morphing from man to woman or vice versa for the pursuit of happiness…hmmm…or trying to escape self loathing…that’s the dilemma about being human.
Wow sorry. I don’t always agree with you on strategy or whatnot Booman but I registered to comment on this. This is just…appalling.
Someone’s control over their body is an ethical dilemma due to the Hippocratic Oath? Are you serious? Based on the National Review? Do you know anyone transgendered, do you have any idea what distress they go through making this decision, coming to the place where they can recognize they need this?
I really think you should familiarize yourself with the LGBT community better before weighing in on such an issue. Nobody goes into the doctor and says “hey take off my penis! I feel WEIRD TODAY” Transitioning is such a prolonged process. You trust “doctors” as a class more than people in that process? You get to weigh in now as a “non-expert” on people who have been suffering and working through this for decades?
Going to the doctor when you’re a cisgendered woman who didn’t “wait til murrage” before you chose to actively be sexual is bad enough. Do you have any idea what skepticism and outright bigotry the transgendered community faces? Any decent doctor who’s already T friendly (so few) should be able to deal with this situation. This isn’t an abstract topic. These people have “changed sex” before the organ is gone. This is so personal. The only experts here are the people who have made that journey.
Jesus Christ man. Check yourself before you wreck yourself. The National Review will never have anything intelligent to say about these people who in many states can still get fired for being who they are.
Y’all are the “priest and the parents” here in the abortion situation. You’re weighing in and know nothing. Don’t just listen, seek – understand the transgendered community and don’t rely on the frigging “Hippocratic Oath” as a fig leaf. Wow wow wow.
And honestly, what a huge discredit to these souls that you say something like, “I feel like a woman, please remove my penis.” What an awful caricature of the transgendered experience you’ve presented. Way to side with the NATIONAL REVIEW on the transgendered experience. How fucking thoughtful of you.
You make exellent points, but i think you interpret boo`s position not exactly right.
The way i read it it that he completely disagrees with the article, but cant really dismiss the point about the ethical dilemma.
I suspect that in all situations there is psychiatric help before someone gets a physical correction, but i dont know. Only if there is insufficiently psychiatric help the ethical dilemma argument will hold.
Thats all there is missing from completely dismissing the whole article.
Bazzz, perhaps if Booman had taken some time to do a bit of very basic research, he would have known enough about the lengthy, grueling process of sexual reassignment to see the “ethical dilemma” claim for what it is. He might have understood that surgery is just the final step, and one that some transgendered persons choose to forgo.
Ok, this person just articulated what I was thinking when I first read this. Bravo.
Obviously, he doesn’t know any transgendered people.
And if this is how you’re going to treat someone who is obviously making an effort to understand, you’re not going to get very far.
People do undergo gender reassignment surgery and have been doing so successfully for years. Are the doctors who help them unethical? Are the people who choose to undergo these surgeries voiceless or unable to make decisions for themselves that are legitimate?
Williamson doesn’t bother to quote someone who’d gone through the surgery. Instead he treats it as a hypothetical question and Booman is enabling that here.
On top of that, Williamson creates a historical narrative to his liking, disrespects the difference between sex and gender, and compares transfolk to people who want to change species. It is offensive.
This is another chapter of White Men Feeling Uncomfortable About Other People’s Bodies. It’s the pseudo-serious kind of crap I thought more liberals were able to recognize and reject without flattering the creators of such crap (Williamson) by granting them the authority to speak on the subject.
If The National Review ran a piece on how being gay is a choice would I feel compelled to read it and respond to part of its “argument”? No. It validates ignorance as legitimate enough to engage with, which slows down progress toward equality. I actually think that’s the purpose of pieces like Williamson’s anyway – reframing the conversation in terms he’s comfortable with, which undermines the language and experience of the community in question.
I could go on but I’m going to go focus on something else instead of tear down Williamson who doesn’t care what I have to say anyway.
I dunno, man. If Boo put up an article about some issue that I regarded as deeply personal, and used the assumption that some National Review hack was miraculously un-full-of-shit as a jumping off point instead of doing five minutes of Googling and fifteen minutes of reading, I think I’d be pretty pissed off, too.
I’m with you, Pillsy!
There is one thing that is really cool and honorable about Booman. He isn’t living in the echo chamber of the professional left. He listens to political opponents from time to time and is willing to consider their ideas. Naturally most of the time he tears much of those ideas apart, but he is more independent minded than many left bloggers.
I’m disappointed he didn’t have wider knowledge before commenting on this NR article. I’m disappointed he didn’t target some of the crap in the NR piece for some righteous skewering. But he admitted his ignorance in the first paragraph, made it clear he was responding to one narrow concern of the NR article and made it clear he was mostly trying to understand this from the medical professional’s viewpoint. If Booman’s main focus is ethical standards in the medical profession, naturally he is missing the wider story.
Thanks to lshare Booman got a response and a source from which many of us can learn.
There are a lot of people reading Booman who are dedicated to civil rights. Even though some surveys place the numbers of transgender people at about 0.2 – 0.3% of the population, it doesn’t deter our desire for justice for them, but it makes information and direct experience harder to come by. For my part I only had one time in my life when I knew someone was transgender and that was 30 years ago. We were volunteering at the same organization, working at a table stuffing envelopes.
I think a blogger who openly admits lack of knowledge on a subject and asks to be informed deserves a little good will. I think sometimes a little patience with those who are uninformed yet motivated to understand is warranted.
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Here is a survey if anyone is interested:
http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/study-shows-how-many-americans-are-gay-lesbian-bisexual-transge
nder/news/2011/04/07/18551
Well my problem is, again, this isn’t a hypothetical question, these surgeries are conducted by doctors, so presumably the answers you seek about “ethics” are out there somewhere. Not be flip and say just Google it, but.
Secondly, in terms of the Hippocratic Oath, maybe it seems like a violation if you believe this:
“A man who believes he is a woman trapped in a man’s body, no matter the intensity of his feeling, is no such thing.”
This is a really conservative view that states the primacy of biological sex over gender. Williamson is pretty dismissive of the idea that sex is not gender (“‘gender identity’ rhetoric”).
I don’t really know how you can respect transgendered people without recognizing that sex is not gender. If you take a view about sex and gender that’s biologically essentialist vis a vis transfolk, in my opinion, you ARE doing harm. If you take a view that sex and gender are different and recognize the suffering that goes along with being in “the wrong body” then the question is, is it ethical to deny surgery or to make the process of getting surgery as complicated as it is.
Booman opened up this question and thus opened up this line of attack and I appreciate that he’s willing to take it. My point is, the terms of this debate are very conservative, and there’s only an ethical dilemma if you approach it from a conservative hypothetical, considering the amount of material on reassignment surgery.
It is sad, and counterproductive, that you saw BooMan’s “opening of this question” as merely an opportunity for you to launch an attack.
Is that all you’re capable of, or is it just a preference?
I didn’t see it as an “opportunity.”
I think it’s important to have a dialogue between various coalitions and identities on the left – it is the only way we can educate each other and make progress. I think we should defer to each other’s experiences when we’re in doubt.
In this case, Booman entered into conversation with the National Review piece, which was loaded with assumptions and prejudice, and said, “I think his challenge needs to be answered.” By who? Basic Googling would’ve given him the answers he wanted. Putting the onus on anyone but himself to debunk a National Review piece on transgender issues is unfair.
Unfortunately, mstx, some people cannot manage – or are unwilling? – to distinguish between passionate rebuttal and an attack.
I’m of two minds on this, in this specific instance. I wanted to launch an all out attack as was done above, because I could not actually believe that this piece was linked without 100% derision and dismissal. It’s why I said “I’ll just leave it to others.” I was angry — and a little buzzed from a beer or two.
However, I also did think Booman was earnestly asking his readers for some education on the point, so I think joe has a point. And when someone is actually “just asking questions,” rather than concern trolling, I think we need to understand that they want to learn and that it’s important not to rub their faces in how wrong they truly are. This isn’t an issue that a lot of people know a lot about, even in our prog communities. John Aravosis, one of the most famous gay activist bloggers in the community, often gets transgender issues wrong, and in some cases (Exhibit A) outright hostility to the community because they’re adversely affecting HIS privilege.
I think both rnstx and joe are correct, even if that sounds counter-intuitive and a bit of dissonant.
Seabe, where you and I seem to differ is that I did not see an attack, I saw a passionate argument for a different point of view.
I think I get that but I wasn’t sure you were taking some of the context into account.
In any case I’m amazed about how discussions about gender are evolving. One of the challenges is that the terminology is not only changing fast but is shifting. To simplify from my own limited personal experience I’ve used the term LGBT for a long time but LGBTQ is relatively new to me. Just last month I saw someone use something like LGBTQI. But then more recently I was at a small social gathering when a Bengali-American (West Bengal) psychologist brought up a discussion about Gopi Shankar who said:
“apart from male and female, there are more than 20 types of genders, such as transwoman, transmen, androgynous, pangender, trigender,, etc”
I applaud this change because there are obviously so many ways of being human and each human deserves love and respect. But society at large is slow to pick up the language to talk about these things even when the good will is present. There are still modern dictionaries that assume sex=gender.
Personally I’m blessed because I have a lot of Bengali-American friends. Some from East Bengal (Bangladesh) and some from West Bengal (India). So in the last couple of years there have been frequent discussions about prominent filmmakers and gender.
One of the great directors: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rituparno_Ghosh
A recent success: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/film-bangladeshi-transgender-challenges-cultural-attitudes/story?id=167
57517
Googling isn’t an instant solution IMHO. There is a ton of stuff out there and for people living mostly outside the experience of LGBT people it isn’t easy to always separate the garbage from the wisdom from whatever.
All the best to you and your loved ones.
http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/39148.html
I just read this yesterday. It’s a post written by Cerberus at Sadly, No, which addresses some of these issues from a personal perspective. I thought it was a good article.
Thanks for the link. I like this comment:
On top of what everyone else has commented, I’d observe that plastic surgeons do all kinds of crazy stuff all the time at the request of patients, and NRO has never raised any “mutilation” objection to that. But this has to do with sexuality they find “icky”, right? Not boob jobs or booty implants or whatever.
As a biologist I have to chime in with some embryological facts here. EVERYONE’S actual secondary sex assignment is up in the air for the first ~ six weeks of embryonic development (called the “sexually indifferent” period – something most people are ignorant of), and physical (and mental) sexual identity after that is dependent entirely on levels of various hormones. Hormone levels are tricky things,and can vary throughout embryonic development and even a lifetime.
It’s good that current policy is to make the process long and involved – makes sure that the person is REALLY committed and not just doing this on a whim. BUT, how your brain perceives your sexuality is a personal thing, and I would never gainsay someone who really wanted to do it.
The medical protocol for treating someone who shows up at a doctor’s office reporting gender identity disorder already involves extensive psychiatric treatment and testing to determine whether or not this really is someone who is a candidate for reassignment treatments. As it should.
Sex change is a very lengthy process that includes psychiatric counseling that continues while living for a period of time as the other gender both before and after hormone treatment. Surgery is the final step in the process.
I wonder how consistent Mr. Williamson is in his aversion to the removal of healthy tissue, and his view that it is mutilation. What about breast reduction, for example? Or the removal of excess skin after extreme weight loss?
Another possibility is that the idea that a transgender person needs to undergo a physical transformation is itself culturally constrained. We can deal with men who feel like they’re men and women who feel like they’re women, but if we can’t accept the notion of a biological male who lives life as a woman, then we’re putting pressure on people like Manning to undergo surgery in order to get their gender identity “right.”
Not that I would intervene in something that is ultimately a personal decision.
As someone who identifies as genderqueer, has been active in LGBTQ circles for 35 or so years, and might well have considered such a transition had my life circumstances and timing been different, all I can say is – wow. Williamson’s article is notable only as an excellent example of the ignorance and bigotry that attends all trans issues. It pushes peoples’ buttons and insecurities around gender and sexuality like nothing else. And Boo, while I applaud your openness, as many of the other commenters have addressed, you really are missing a lot of information.
Gender is a social construct based on both biological fact and social conventions. As others have noted, in a lot of non-Western cultures it’s not considered binary – precisely because it involves so much more than a person’s sexual plumbing. (Note that Williamson isn’t fixated on guys removing their Adams Apple or other feminizing plastic surgeries – it’s the removal, more accurately the transformation, of a penis that freaks him out.) Only the individual can make that determination.
Currently the US has some of the most restrictive policies in the world around becoming “eligible” for what is technically now a fairly simple surgery. Those requirements include two years of being seen by a psychiatrist and – until recently – being pathologized by him or her as suffering from the “disease” of GID. (One of the major reasons I never even seriously considered that path: I was raised by, and raped by, a member of that profession, who also used his professional skills in emotionally abusive ways, and with another family member as well, and I would never, ever trust someone in that profession with my most personal thoughts, let alone allow them to determine my fate. But that’s me.)
Another barrier to transition in the US is that it is hugely expensive and often not covered by insurance – the surgeries alone (there are multiple ones, if you want to do it right, for either FtM or MtF) are well over $20,000, and with the drugs, testing, psychiatrists, etc., you can spend triple that by the time you’re done, not counting the lifetime of hormone treatment.
These access issues are a major reason why many people go overseas for transitioning, but nowhere is it quick and cheap, and nobody, ever, does it casually. As others have noted, the bigotry and social isolation one faces is immense. For many people this decision means risking losing most or all of a lifetime’s worth of family and friends. Williamson’s suggestion that it’s a casual decision – and anyone’s use of the term “mutilation” – is offensive beyond words.
Honestly, I am sick to death of this country’s morality police. If somebody wants to do something – anything – with their body that affects nobody else, they should be free to do so. It’s not your body. It’s not your life. You, and any imaginary sky friend, have no say in the matter.
Side note one: Since every embryo “changes” gender – from not having one to having one – after about six weeks, who’s going to break the news to the “personhood begins at fertilization” crowd that we’ve all changed sex at one point in our lives?
I always thought it was cool that we are all from Africa. Now I’m transgender too. Whoo hoo!
I just love this factoids that subvert the dominant social convention.
Side note two: One other way for people who don’t feel they fit the social (as opposed to biological) conventions of their assigned gender in our culture is to change those conventions – and in some ways, unevenly, that has been happening the last couple of generations. But that’s a glacially slow process, and most people don’t have the time or patience to wait on it in order to be comfortable and happy.
Intelligent topic 🙂 https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mokoolapps.junglecatspuzzles
A person I know who is labelled “transgender” has always reacted negatively to my use of the term, and I finally came to understand why. It is the concept of “transitioning” from male to female or female to male that is problematic. My friend’s view, which makes perfect sense to me, is that she has not “transitioned” from being one thing to being something different. She is still the same person as whom she was born. The surgery corrected a physical anomaly — some might use the term birth defect, although I dislike that term for other reasons. In any case it did not change who she is.
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Like BooMan, I too search for personal feeling about transgender people. I do accept there are not just two genders, but many variations in between. Just like gay people, transgender is not about psychiatry but in essence it’s physiological and psychological. Society and cultures open to minorities deal better with this personal issue of our fellow men, women and the third gender. The gender issue plays a role in sports and the athletics in the Olympic games. The treatment of the issue can truly be horrible for the persons involved.
Cultures treat transgender/transsexuality very differently as in Pakistan and Iran than in our Christian moral culture. There are no liberal nations, perhaps in the Scandinavian countries and Western Europe.
Why does the US lag behind even Iran on transsexual/transgender issues? – and a documentary [Spanish].
Chelsea Manning was sentenced to 35 years in prison. If she is denied medical care as a transgender person than I would consider that another form of torture for her.
So far also everyone seems to be focusing on the surgical aspect when as far as I know she has not mentioned surgery nor do many transgender people have this surgery.
Having the surgery would be many years down the road after much hormone replacement therapy and other factors in the process.