My thoughts are heavy from the news of Meteor Blade’s wife and sister-in-law’s injuries and the loss of the people in the other car. I don’t have much to comment on about this. Please look at Welshman’s diary or the diary on DailyKos and if you’re a praying person, say a prayer for Meteor Blades and his family and all those involved. I’ll just put this up as crossposted from one of my other blogs Panhandle (W.Va.) Grassroots for Democracy. My heart isn’t in the tirade I was going to write.
Editorial in today’s Charleston Gazette gets it exactly right:
Before Washington plunged into the Iraq war, West Virginia’s Sen. Robert C. Byrd warned repeatedly that the White House had presented no clear evidence that the little country had any weapons of mass destruction — supposedly the reason for the invasion. But most of Congress ignored Byrd and approved the needless war.
Subsequent events have shown that Byrd was right all along — and this fact was underscored last week when a commission appointed by President Bush himself released a 618-page report that minced few words.
“On the brink of war, and in front of the whole world, the U.S. government asserted that Saddam Hussein had reconstituted his nuclear weapons program, had biological weapons and mobile biological weapon production facilities…. And not one bit of it could be confirmed when the war was over,” the report said.
The commission told the president: “The daily intelligence briefings given to you before the Iraq war were flawed.”
In other words, Byrd was correct, right from the start. He was correct in March 2003 when he asked:
“What is happening to this country? When did we become a nation which ignores and berates our friends? When did we decide to risk undermining international order by adopting a radical and doctrinaire approach to using our awesome military might? How can we abandon diplomacy when the turmoil in the world cries out for diplomacy?”
And Byrd was right when he warned: “I have watched the events of recent months with a heavy, heavy heart. No more is the image of America one of a strong, yet benevolent peacekeeper. The image of America has changed. Around the globe, our friends mistrust us, our word is disputed, our intentions are questioned.”
America should have paid closer attention to questions Byrd began asking in the fall of 2002. They still cry out for answers today.
Senator Byrd is too classy to scream from the roof of the Capitol building, “I told you so.” But a lot of West Virginians should remember Byrd was correct and remember he tried to save thousands of lives, hundreds of billions of dollars of our treasury and our priceless reputation by warning against the Iraq invasion.
Byrd is a doddering old fool, and an embarrassment to the party (with his KKK past). I’ll be glad when he finally retires.
Alan
Maverick Leftist
But since he’s more eloquent, I’ll let him respond for me:
Shouldn’t we be looking for a new Democrat to run instead? Even if you don’t detest Byrd like I do, surely just his age should illustrate that it’s time for him to step down and let someone new take over.
Alan
Maverick Leftist
.
Robert C. Byrd says it all!
by Senator Robert C. Byrd
December 18, 2003 | The older I get, the more I become convinced that wisdom is enhanced by age.
The Democratic party should be supported with their candidate of choice.
If Byrd would have wavered on the Iraq issue as so many other Democrats — Kerry, Clinton — then I could agree to take into account his age. It seems to me he has been the brightest of the bunch in Congress from both sides of the aisle. Byrd realized that the power given to Congress by the US Constitution was squandered in October 2002 with the Iraq War Act.
I have read parts of his book and listened to him in TV interviews. Byrd knows US politics, the Hill and knows president Bush like the backside of his hand. I am afraid Byrd can’t be missed, an astounding conclusion.
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
Very rarely does any politician agree with your views all of the time. I agree Senator Bryd may be a getting a bit doddering(I’m assuming he has palsy) but don’t think he’s anyone’s fool.
Bryd also does have as history as one of the biggest porkbarrel politicians of any state. He has however been incredibly eloquent in his speeches on the floor of the Senate these last years since Bush took office, especially regarding war and Iraq. One of only few democrats to forcefully do so. One of his speeches so forceful and correct I remember sending him an email even though I live out here in Ca.
I do agree too that it’s time for him to retire and get someone new to take his place.
He’s a speechifier, that’s for sure–though to me his “holier than thou” attitude is a turnoff, regardless of what side of the issue he is on.
And did you know he was one of the only Democrats to break ranks on the gay marriage vote?
Alan
Maverick Leftist
No I didn’t, don’t know how I missed that as to me that is an extremely important, defining issue.
Yup, it was Byrd, Ben Nelson of Nebraska (the guy who is often talked about as the Democrat most likely to pull a “reverse Jeffords”) and Zell Miller (Democrat only in name). Pretty lame.
Alan
Maverick Leftist
To me the issue of gay marriage is one that I’m tired of most democratic politicians being wishy/washy on. They can’t have it both ways so they’d better decide where they really want to stand on this issue-at least that is my hope for the next election. But I’m not gonna hold my breathe.
I have personally known this man since my youth. He and my father are great friends, and have spent much time together. They have traveled together, and he has shared the bread at our dinner table many times.
His values, and ethics, are straight from the heart, and always a “rock” for the True American beliefs.
I am sadened by the claims about the KKK, for this was a slam years ago, from the Republican party, who for decades, has tried to “break” this rock.
I am sadened by the people who claim to be for the rights of people, to shout this atrosity about a man who has dedicated his life, for our rights, hopes and dreams.
So this I will say to the one’s who make this claim, “let the first one among you, who hath no sin, cast the first stone”
And let this be known, “people who live in glass houses, should be careful how they get their rocks off!!!”
Are you saying Byrd was not in the KKK?
Do you know, for a fact that he was? and what’s the proof. valid proof, not some dime store book, national enquirer, or some repug website.
Facts, will be backed by solid proof, anythig else, well……
He hasn’t even denied it. But hey, why should he need to, when he has people like you to do it for him, so he doesn’t need to be caught lying?
Alan
Maverick Leftist
The thought stuck me as I was reading this interchange of posts here, that unless you can present proof of these charges, you should listen to or at least consider infidelpig statements regarding this man. as he claims to know him and I have no doubt he does.
Consider 30 years when claims are made about Kerry saying all the swifyt boat nonsense, or that he flip/flopped or whatever nonsense.
When we clearly know what the Reps. will do to smear someone, should we not at least consider the possibility that they have in this case?
Why castigate and smear someone that you do not have proof of the allegations you are making. IMHO there is entirely too much of putting down Dems period, whenever it is perceived they have done anything not in the mainstream or group think postion.
eloquently stated, thank you dear lady, for I am losing all patience with the marxist spouting …….nevermind. ; )
Diane, did you read my diary about Byrd, in reaction to this one? I think it provides plenty of evidence, none of which has been contradicted by anyone else so far. If you can find any evidence the other way, let’s see it!
Alan
Maverick Leftist
Just read your diary and I have only this to say:
There were and are plenty of articles and “proof” of the Swift Boat Allegations, there are plenty of aticles about Clinton, that contains “proof, as well as there are plenty of articles and “proof” of evidence that Bush lied.
Which proof shall I accept and which will I not; and when will I judge the man for what he does today, not knowing why he did what he may or may not have done in his past.
My answer is that I don’t accept any so called “proof” as a final answer, and I judge the man more for his actions today and allow for the possibility of change.
The fact that he voted for the gay marriage ban does not shock me if you consider his age and the era he was raised in. Different people have different opinions in both parties on that issue.
To me this whole discussion of Byrd in this manner is insulting both to him and to our party.
One could be a very good man for a whole lifetime and then commit an act that is not good. Shall we judge him for all the good he did or the one bad or both.
Or shall we allow for the fact that hardly anyone is all good or all bad.
I am old enought to remember the McCarhty era, when good men were called bad because they attended a communist meeting or knew a member of the party. Were they good or bad, you tell me.
I am curious as to your age and the amount of history you have seen pass by, if young I could understand your position, if old enough to have seen a bit, I question your tolerance. IMHO
Why on earth should I be “tolerant” of blatant racism?!? Ugh, Diane, you just lost a lot of credibility with me.
And again: the links I provided were to Wikipedia and the Washington Post. Can you find a single source that disputes anything I posted? Sure, most of the sites that talk about this are Republican sites. They’re the ones hopping up and down about it while Democrats try to play it down. But instead of playing it down, Democrats should denounce it!
Alan
Maverick Leftist
Sorry you misunderstand, I meant tolerance in the respect of accepting that a person can have done a wrong or wrongs, changed and should not then be forevermore labeled in the previous manner.
If he indeed did do these things, was rascist, etc. then of course I do not approve of that, but I still have not seen any evidence that he still holds these views, if he, as you have said, has in the past.
What punishmnent do you suggest would be appropriate for him?
Is it ever possible to have redemption for past wrongs?
– was in Hitlerjugend as a young man.
Thanks, checked him out, makes my point I guess.
Byrd has one more term left in him. He’s the Dean of the Senate. His mind is still strong. Let Rick Santorum in his hubris call Byrd “that sweet old man.” Byrd will wait and deliver the blow in the upcoming battles. I’m sure that many think there is something quaint about Byrd and his pocket copy of the US Constitution, funny, they don’t think so out in the coffee shops of America. In the coming Senate judicial appointments fight, Byrd may well look better than smarmy sharp suit squares from the hotel conference room and the political office cubicle.
I don’t know about these claims as to him being in the KKK. First off, there should be proof. Secondly even if he was is it not possible that he has evolved? People do thoughtless stupid thing all the time (look at Ted Kennedy) which they come to regret and move on to do great things (- provided their brains haven’t been fried by too many drugs). I feel from his speeches given before the Iraq invasion, that he is a man who is extremely intelligent and a man that we need on our side at the moment.
He doesn’t deny it. Go ahead, see if you can find any evidence that Byrd has denied any of what I’ve posted (which came not from freeper sites but from Wikipedia, and the Washington Post).
Alan
Maverick Leftist
Not denying doesn’t mean admitting to. There’s been a joke in European hardcore racing circles: “the quicker you are to deny something, the more likely it’s true”. (For those who don’t follow the corruption of F1 – it puts the Mafia to shame.)
First, I’m a huge fan of Senator Byrd. Maybe I’ve been sucked into memes, but I thought it was a known fact that he had been a member of the KKK, long, long ago. (Forgive me for that infidelpig, but that’s been my understanding – right or wrong.)
Whatever his past, it wouldn’t change my opinion of the man, because I care about his recent contributions and leadership. (As eloquently stated by Nanette). I do understand people’s concerns regarding Senator Byrd’s vote on gay marriage. On the one hand, his age and constituents play a large role – but on the other hand, I feel strongly that the Democratic party should band together on this issue of civil rights.
Anomalous, there is nothing to forgive, I understand, and for years I have heard all those claims about the envolvement with the KKK.
I would like to relay something that happened in a small West Virginia town many years ago, that made me feel the way I do.
My family had moved from Florida to West Virginia when I was just starting my teens. It was a very small community along the Ohio River, with only a couple of thousand people. A small farming and mining town, of which most of the mines had played out.
The day we moved to this town, I remember the drive into that small area, and a sign at the edge of town I saw that stopped me in my tracks. The sign read: “Nigger, don’t let the sun set on your ass in this town”
I could’nt believe my eyes, for I had never seen anything like this in my life. We had lived in an area in Florida that had a large population of African American people. In fact my father at that time drove a city bus, and his route was the black community, transporting all the people to and from their work.
I remember the signs all around town (in Floirda) during the 50’s relating to the black population of where they could enter, or not, a building, the seperate drinking fountains, white/black, for they were not even allowed to drink from the same water fountains. The entrance to the building for them was in the back, not in the front where the whites could enter.
I also remember that the blacks could not set near the front of the bus, it was always in the rear. Except on my father’s bus, they sat in the front, or anywhere they wanted, and they all called him, and I by name, and talked about their day, the weather, the price of living, etc, just like anyone else.
At this time, the Civil Rights movement was getting into a pretty good momentum in West Virginia, and all over the nation. I remember a comment by my father at that time about the sign at the edge of town, and what the city’s response was. Do NOT touch that sign, it’s allways been there, as if the damned thing grew out of the ground, geeesh.
My father at that time was a policeman in the small WV town, and did not think it was a good thing to have a sign like that.
Now, enter Robert C. Byrd. On one of his campain trips around the state, he came to our small area, and he and my father met, and I remember that day very well, for a small town boy, not to mention a stranger in rural america, from Florida, (I wore short pants, and they did NOT) He came to our little house, and they sat on the porch and talked, and I listened from the side of the house. The subject of the sign came up, and Byrd responded: “it’s a tough time we’re go’n through, and changes are being made, and need to be made, and will be made, some of them wrong, and some of them right, and too long in passing. Don’t say nothing about the sign, and we’ll deal with it”
At that time I had a morning paper route, and was always up at 3:30 am every morning to get my papers bundled, and off to deliver by 4:00am. The next moring I was just starting my route, when I saw a pickup truck down by the “sign” at the edge of a pasture field, and it was in the back of the truck, with two men in the truck, and a shiny new Ford car just ahead of it. The took off before daylight with the car in the lead, and I remember who was in that car. Robert C. Byrd, for he had seen to it that it was removed. Nothing was ever mentioned about the sign being gone, it was if it was never there.
I never said a word to anyone until years later about this, except to my father once, and he pretended not to hear, and just went on about his business.
Years had went by, and I had returned home from the military and I brought this subject up in a conversation with him. His reply was this, “sometimes a man just has to do what a man has to do, and he (Byrd) has people to answer to, (the voters) so he just kept it quiet”
By this time my father had moved up in his career, in law enforcement to county, and then state level. I could relate to being quiet about things, for I had been envolved in military actions that could never be talked about.
Sometimes, we have to be quiet about our actions, and thoughts, to please the people. Most people do not really want to know how things get done, just that they get done. Never knowing the consequences that some people pay for the people’s wants.
As for Senator Byrd’s response, fillabusters, and voting on Bills, he told me once, “never take anything on the hill, (Washington DC) at face value, for their are many things behind the scenes that the people will never know, and most of these actions are taken because of other items in the bill, that would give them a loophole to do more damage than good, so I must stand for the right of the people to make sure these things don’t happen, it’s my job, and bi-god, I will do it or die”
This was in the day when media, and technology were lacking to say the least, but time, and new inovations have changed all that, and most important, the views of the people.
You see, my father is Cherokee indian, and my mother white, and in those days, and still in some places, an indian was/is treated worse than the blacks in many places. As a young boy, I always wondered why they never mentioned of their heritage, as I often questioned, and did not understand until becoming a young man, and learning to see the opinions of the people.
I know now why my father placed us in that small area. It was so he could provide a better life for us, and through change in time, and people’s ideals, they did just that. Until that time, in that small town, a meeting and begining of a new friendship with Byrd, he was held back, and then, it changed.
Keeping in mind, that this was now the 60’s and into the 70’s, all of America and it’s people changed, and for the better, but at great sacrifice for so few, to do good for so many.
My applogies for the long response, but at sometime I will do a diary, as Paul Harvey says, on: “The rest of the Story” I will give more insight to Mr. Byrd, and some things people have never known, about the changes he has made, not for himself, but for his beloved country.
Do put it up as a diary entry. Please.
it will be done, but later in the week, as my schedule is really full this week, and trying to get my road/utilities built and installed into my property.
Thank you for your response, and there is a LOT more to the story.
I totally agree with sirocco and would love to see your diary. Especially expounding on your points about your father and being an American Indian and all the attendant problems dealing with that.
People born after the 60′ or 70’s would have a hard time understanding the situation of race (any) in the south and all over the US. and the problems with intermarriage or even dating of different races. This extended to Oriental, Mexican,anyone of a different race and also was prevelent in regards to religion. I was not even allowed to date a ‘Catholic’, in high school, we were Protestants, but my step mother was an ex-Catholic and could not abide them whatsoever. These were very strange times in retrospect and hard to imagine in this day and age.
Also in high school (50’s) a black boy (who I liked very much and talked to all the time in school) called to invite me on a date, all I could say to him was, “I can’t, I know what my father will say and he will hit the roof that I even considered this.” I felt so bad, but there was nothing to be done.
I for one could not have been happier when these opinions of people began to change and continued to change so that now it is not as much an issue.
Same with politics, Republicans did not even marry Democrats, at least not in my strongly Republican family.
People were very narrow minded in those days!
WE still have a way to go before all these issues are resolved.
Thanks infidel for your personal account. This should help remind everyone here that nothing is ever morally black and white. Which is why, while I have trouble with some of Senators Byrd’s votes recently I also think he’s one of the few senators speaking up forcefully on Iraq and the war.
I do hope you write more on your personal experiences.
Thank you for sharing this moving, insightful narrative. Based on this story alone, it’s evident why you have such passion in supporting Senator Byrd. His actions must have had a profound impact on you.
Most of all, I deeply admire your father’s strength and decency in such a volatile environment. Many years ago I watched a PBS series regarding the history of racism in this nation. I found it particularly chilling when they covered the subject of medical testing and sterilization of individuals from the Appalachian Mountains who came from mixed heritage. Apparently those medical procedures served as the foundation of genocide practices in Nazi Germany. We forget how recently those events took place.
I look forward to reading your diary. This was very inspiring.
So he acted like a racist to get elected by racists. Talk about profiles in courage (not). Why should I have any respect for that?
This is even worse (and I’m frankly appalled that so many people thought this was “beautiful”). So just coincidentally, it was a bunch of white Southern senators, elected by whites (since blacks were prevented from voting, and this is just what these laws were passed to prevent), doing this filibustering, and yet this was some kind of noble cause? Since he failed in his attempt to block civil rights laws, I guess those “loopholes” that will “do more damage than good” must have really been bad for our nation, huh? He was trading in craven political doublespeak, and you went for it. Blech.
Alan
Maverick Leftist
First of all, your just a really special person. That is very obvious, and what is more obvious, is your desire to be the center of attention.
Secondly, I’m going to give you the empathy, that you seriously need, to realize that you are a very disturbed young person, with no other objective in life, than to create turmoil where there is hope.
Third on the list is, your total disregaurd for peoples opinions, especially when they do not fit yours. Which I am quite sure that it is the only one that matters, at least in your special world.
Now, since I have previously and pleasantly asked that there would be no more conversations between you and I, and you so blatently refused to do such, how about these terms:
If you would like to continue a debate, would you please answer the following questions? If not, no reply would be welcomed by me, for sure, but if you do answer the questions, then it will be an open playing field. Agreed?
Questions:
1. How old are you
2. Are you male or female (just so I can adress you properly)
3. What country, state, and area of such are you from. (geographical area that you were raised in)
4. Party affiliations, if any
5. Are you a registered voter, and under which party, or independant if that is the case.
6. Have you ever served, volunteered, drafted, or on one of these lists, for the US, or other countries military service.
7. Racial heritage
Now, if you can answer these questions honestly, and I’m going to have faith that you will, we can continue to go forth with any conversation you should wish.
If you cannot, or will not answer these questions, for familiarity, then we have nothing else further to converse with each other.
I think you have a misunderstanding of how these public forums work. You don’t get to tell me or anyone else not to respond to your posts–particularly when (as in this case) the content of your post is clearly intended to cast doubt on something I wrote.
I don’t really have a problem with revealing the information you asked for, but I don’t see its relevance and I’m not exactly eager to bend over backwards for someone who called me a “very disturbed young person” (though hey: at least I’m young huh?). Were you planning on volunteering the same data about yourself? If so, and if you can take a more civil tone, I’d consider your request.
Alan
Maverick Leftist
I did not tell you, I asked you. (that’s the polite way)
You don’t seem to have a problem casting doubt, on others. You don’t seem to like it when it comes back at you though.
I don’t have a problem sharing my background, obviously, since I have allready done that. The relevance was to understand your background, for the basis of your opinions, and passion.
Yes, your young, but youth only lasts so long. Something we all try to cling to, but the end result is getting older.
Now, I believe this is civil, what would be your opinion?
As well I think you should be civil in your response to the people that commented, and your post was not civil by any means. If civility is what you seek, then it must first be given, to be entitled to recieve.
I don’t recall you posting all that biographical information. I’ll trust that you’ll go ahead and respond to this by restating it, if you would, please.
My answers:
Alan
Maverick Leftist
slacker, this would probably be the best thing I can think of, we agree to disagree, how’s that.
I am very tired of all the arguing, not with you, but just people in general, I think that everyone has something in their past they are not proud of, whatever it may be, big or small.
Let’s just chalk it up to a bad day, and go forward.
Slakerink has a blog and you can just click on his name and see his info and go to his site where he tells a good bit about himself.
And this article in Wash. POst, as he links to on his blog says this:
An avowed leftist, Alan Thomas, 33, doesn’t like Bush, but he believes in the war. “I don’t support the president. I’m skeptical about his sincerity in wanting democracy in Iraq. But I feel he’s committed to it,” Thomas says.
Thomas works the night shift in a group home for mainstreamed developmentally disabled adults in Kirksville, Mo. He’s the son of college professors. He and his wife, Kate, 27, live in an apartment and drive a 1989 Chevrolet van. They have two mutts rescued from the humane society. They also run a small shop that sells things they think are cool, such as bumper stickers that read “Bush/Cheney: America’s Second Choice.”
“I’m sympathetic with the plight of the Kurds and the Iraqi people,” Thomas says. “And I’m disappointed in, and embarrassed by, the left.”
Asked if he voted for Bush, he laughs. “No, no way. Never.”
Though Thomas enthusiastically supports the war, he says he’ll reevaluate his position after the regime change. “If Bush tries to install a puppet dictator or if there are human rights violations, I’ll be decrying it as loudly as anyone else on the left,” he says.
“I feel that the original Gulf War was conducted in an immoral way. . . . They rained down so many bombs on troops who were conscripted.” He supports a war that minimizes civilian casualties.
The United States, Thomas says, “should clean up the world. We have the power. I’m kind of a weirdo. It’s wrong for us to sit on our hands and not do anything.”
He adds, “It’s very simplistic to treat this as a black-and-white issue.”
Thank you for the information. Very kind of you.
[snip]
The United States, Thomas says, “should clean up the world. We have the power.
That explains why Byrd’s opposition to said war cuts no ice with SlackerInc.
But this quote is a little ironic in the current context:
valid points. thanks for picking up on that, I did as well, but thought at this point, just let it go. ; )
I find I’m having a hard time with the attack on Sen. Byrd. I’ve heared every one of these charges for years and Sen. Byrd has gone on being a stalwart of the Democratic Party, infuriating me from time to time by taking a stance to the right of mine on certain social issues that tend to mirror his constituents. Then a real “money” bill on kitchen table issues comes up and Byrd is right there.
On Pork Barrell politics–I saw Byrd on one of the Sunday talk shows respond to the charge that he gets pork for West Virginia: “That’s why they elected me. To represent them.” He was unashamed of doing the best he could for WV, where a highway funded means the county has jobs.
On his past: “People change with time. I did.”
There’s two other things about Robert Byrd, his curious habit of being right on the big stuff, and his habit of being pretty calm in the face of the storm and his opponents’ moves.