Kos writes:
Whatever. Feel free to be offended. I find such humorless, knee-jerk reactions, to be tedious at best, sanctimonious and arrogant at worst. I don’t care for such sanctimony from Joe Lieberman, I don’t care for it from anyone else. Some people find such content offensive. Some people find it arousing. Some people find it funny. To each his or her own.
But I am not Lieberman. I won’t sit there and judge pop culture and act as gatekeeper to what I think is “appropriate”, and what isn’t.
And I certainly won’t let the sanctimonious women’s studies set play that role on this site. Feel free to be offended. Feel free to claim that I’m somehow abandoning “progressive principles” by running the ad. It’s a free country. Feel free to storm off in a huff. Other deserving bloggers could use the patronage.
:::flip:::
That caused a firestorm. Markos issued a partial apology. And I wrote this defense of him.
I normally avoid writing about what goes on at Daily Kos. But this seems to be developing into a major rift at a bad time. We have an important week coming up and our most influential blog is suffering from infighting. I’m glad we don’t do much fighting here, but the site is young. What do y’all make of it? Was I wrong to defend Markos?
You can’t please all the people all the time, it’s the natural course of things.
The fighting on Kos is why I no longer go there, I like the peace and tranquility of this place ; )
Much more sensible, and with a touch of “home” .
Stand your ground BooMan, express your views, and let the others have theirs. I believe that is the premiss of Democracy.
694 comments as of a couple minutes ago. Interesting.
I find myself thinking about how sensationalism ups the ratings on TV…
or the reaction to the sensationalism that ups the ratings? Which just proves that senationalism works and causes more sensationalism.
I think its a chicken/egg thing.
I joined here a few minutes ago. I was impressed with Booman’s reasonable tone, and although I don’t agree that Kos’ remarks are defencible, I think it speaks well of Booman’s character that his view of the situation evolved as he gathered information in that DK-posted diary.
Honestly, though, I joined here because SusanHu is such a major contributor to Booman Tribune, and because I have such respect for her diaries I’ve read on DailyKos.
What astounds me is that Markos invited people to leave his place of business. One never, ever, ever does that unless the people one is inviting to leave are “undesirables”–and many of the folk he invited to leave are actually thoughtful contributors to DailyKos. On the other hand, he’s welcome to some of those who will remain, whose idea of “contributing” is to post the occasional snarky one-line comment or off-colour joke.
Honestly, the whole issue of the “pie fighting” advert was blown entirely out of proportion–as many people here and on DK have already pointed out. And Piegate was but a match set to kindling and kerosene that had been piled high by Kos on women’s issues over a period of weeks and months.
I have received many emails from both women and men from DailyKos thanking me for my comments on that diary, and expressing disgust and dismay at Markos’ attitude towards his critics. I myself am not one for dramatic exits, but I don’t think that I would feel comfortable providing free content for Mr. Moulitsa’s site after being invited to leave.
As Booman has pointed out, we all write or say things that we later regret. However, Mr. Moulitsa has made it clear that he has a “take it or leave it” policy about his site–so I do believe I’ll leave it. I don’t sense that a mass exodus at DKos is imminent–however, over time, Mr. Moulitsa’s attitude (which is echoed by an unfortunately large number of men belonging to the One-Line Snark Brigade) is likely to drive many of his thoughtful contributors–essayists, not one-line snarkers who do no research and provide no insight whatsoever–away from his site.
And that is enough of that, as far as I’m concerned. DKos is what it is, take it or leave it–and I trust that people who feel uncomfortable there will find a place elsewhere, while others will remain. I have already made my choice.
You don’t need it. Honest. You have your own community here.
Markos did not issue an appology. He issued an explaination.
It’s his site, he can write whatever he wants.
Obviously, he is writing whatever he wants.
I’ve been on vacation, and came back to the blogosphere to find the pie war underway. Wow! And I thought it was bad over at dKos when the pope died! I hope we can avoid having the pie war overflow into the Booman Community.
I think you’ve hit on a key point with your observation on explanation versus apology. Kos gave an explanation, when an apology was (in my opinion) called for. Not an apology for his opinion – everyone’s entitled to an opinion, even if I find it loopy – but for offending a significant number of people that are supposed to be allies.
I would say that he owes his readers an apology as “the host” for reasons discussed well by others here, but I’m not sure it will happen. After giving it some thought, I think maybe there’s a disconnect between how Kos sees the site (as a tool for defeating conservatives – a left-brain approach if you will) and how some diarists view it (as primarily a community where progressives can find shelter in the storm – a right-brain approach, to oversimplify things). While I think these approaches can overlap, dKos seems to be mainly the former (while allowing C&J space to keep the troops entertained; an internal USO show), while sites like this one are more about the sense of community than dKos. Not that we aren’t concerned about the issues, of course. But, speaking for myself, I think I’ll be spending more time over here and less over there for a while – the “raw nerves” of the “big city” are getting to me. Folks over there “need to go decaf” – the vibe I get on dKos is like folks have all had three cups of strong coffee; over here it’s like after a glass of good wine. 😀
I was shocked to see Catnip leave; that spurred me to go through the postings and comments more thoroughly after work. Hopefully we’ll see her over here.
Which reminds me: I’ve been remiss in just lurking (I’ve posted comments here once or twice) and never getting around to posting in the “tell us about yourself” diary. So I guess I’ll go do that now…
Kos is right, but he is wasting valable time.
One issue people should stay at their one issue blog. Sorry but IMO it is the truth.
I think the problem with this line of thinking is that many people obviously see women’s issues not as a single issue but one part of the spectrum of human rights. And many of them – and I tend to agree – think there is no more important “issue”, which is not so much an issue as an overarching worldview.
I think you were right to defend Markos.
That being said, I hang out here more than at kos, because like most folk who post or follow progressive blogs, my time is limited, and the discussion here is superior and generally unmarred by the infighting currently exploding on kos.
There is a real world battle going on out there and we just don’t have the time for that kind of stuff.
I do want to add to your comment in which you state you would like there to be a time when there are 30-60 women in the Senate. What I long for is for it simply not to matter whether my Senator is White, Female, Gay, African-American, Jewish or Hindu, but is a dynamic advocate of the progressive agenda who is willing to work for me and others who need her or him or it (I’d even take Commander Data).
Thanks for your work, BooMan.
I read your linked Kos diary. I think the folks who pointed out that, unless you are part of the group that is, uh, ‘dismissed’ on a regular basis, you don’t notice what’s going on until it’s been pointed out to you are correct. The gender wars have been escalating there over the past few weeks, and it’s a turn-off for some (many?) people.
All I have to say is, you have a higher proportion of women participating here than they do at the other site for a reason. Keep doing what you’re doing!
I haven’t noticed the escalating gender wars over at DKos, perhaps because I haven’t given the place much attention since getting flamed pretty badly a few weeks back for expressing a lack of sympathy for US soldiers in Iraq (stupid me). That made me feel the place was a bit intolerant and that there was more interest in enforcing groupthink and political correctness than having a discussion.
Have to say that from the quotes I have seen (in comments on Booman’s linked DKos diary) I have no sympathy at all for Markos. His initial outburst may have been a mistake on the run, or perhaps it was indicative of the inner Markos… it could even be both at once. But the follow-up clarification or non-apology was indefensible.
So, Booman, I wouldn’t have leapt in to defend Markos like you did. But I understand why you did.
And, to echo comments from several others, I too find things a whole lot more civilised here. I think the gender balance and particularly the strong role played by Susanhu (when did she stop being Susanhbu?) is a major part of that.
BooMan kindly offered to change my poor choice of a name. So nice :):)
About the topic: I always miss these fights at DKos. I have enough trouble reading all the diaries I spot, and researching more stories for new diaries. I guess I’ll have to go have a look. At the least, I want to read what BOOMAN wrote!
Oh .. must go … CNN is advising young pretty white women how to travel safely in countries with big bad black men.
(Snarky, huh. I am SICK to death of the “news” channels’ obsessing over stories like this.)
Yes, Susan is the best.
Everyone knows it 🙂
I have to confess…my defense of Markos was based on my basic agreement that an ad for Gilligan’s Island shouldn’t be grounds for questioning his commitment to women’s causes…and anyone can lose their temper and say something insensitive.
But I was unaware that there were a lot of women that were already upset over other issues that I had not noticed. It seems his response touched an already raw nerve.
I’ll let it be.
and it’s one thing to touch a raw nerve,
it’s another thing altogether to dig at it over and over and over…
Markos made his points months ago.
He won’t let it go.
OK.
The issue of the ad for me is pure trivia. Women dress that way these days. Look around.
The issue of a blogger being opinionated and fiesty like Markos, that’s his right and he takes the consequences.
BooMan defending him as a colleague is fine too.
I would not want to spend much time on it though, so I did not read the comments to BooMan’s diary on this subject at Dkos.
I’m reminded of Talking Points Memo placing an ad for Ann Coulter’s book, with her photo. Josh Marshall got complaints and more or less responded like Markos short of telling people to blog off. I admit to blocking her photo, I have my limits too.
My intention was to defend him for making an intemperate remark.
I didn’t realize the extent to which a lot of women were already pissed off before the remark.
A lot has changed since I launched this site.
But it is still the same late at night when I usually move over there to bug Armando.
that’s dangerous, to bug armando.
heh…
He needs the attention 🙂
Remember, this diary is NOT about Armando.
I know
“..this diary is not about Armando.”
I’ve been gone a week, and had no idea of all this excitement going on.
Since Armando’s name has been brought up, I’m wondering if you all think he’s capable of being vindictive if criticized. Just asking. Yes, I do have a reason to ask.
Please know that I’m not trying to make trouble — only I’m curious to hear if anybody’s had that sort of experience.
We parted ways when he wrote that the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima were justified pre-emptive attacks by the US. There were no harsh words, he just wrote, “I’m sorry, we disagree.” It’s not a subject which I can debate because I could never be persuaded that it was justified. This demonstrates that it takes big issues to get me upset.
to say this was about the ad… is disingenuous.
The internecine infighting is about Kos’s attitude towards women and women’s issues…. which SUCKS btw.
that I haven’t come across in either diary but being human I may have missed a comment that included my thought. For me, Markos needs to generate money in order to make a living. Thus, as here, ads are taken on. Now, if Dkos were let’s say a sports blog, which are generally geared towards men, I might understand the ad being placed there. For an ad such as being discussed, imho, it does not belong on a dem/lib blog.
That being said, Kos inflamed the situation by saying what he did and then the non apology apology update inflamed the issue even more. Kos’ position on women’s issues, his habit of posting a diary that someone posted thirty minutes prior, his two line diaries with an article by someone else and his don’t let the door hit you in the ass attitude if you don’t agree with him turned me off. Yes, I still go there on occasion because of a couple of diarists and action type diaries…NOT because it is Kos’ site.
As far as you defending him Boo, that is your right but Kos is a big boy and imho can defend himself. By posting your diary over there and then bringing the whole mess over here was not necessary.
I came to Booman to get away from the group think and elitist attitude that has developed over there. I came here to get a sense of community and feel accepted and a part of here. I am the world’s worst typist. You all seem to accept that and my spelling errors. Here, I don’t feel the ratings system is being abused or that there is a group think mentality. It is my greatest hope it will remain that way. Only time and growth will tell.
I’m back to ignoring kos’s diaries. There’s too many great people over there who actually provide analysis and thoughtful commentary and already posted what kos posts.
.
Daily Kos members is arrogant and always hurts feelings. Wrong attitude, especially when in a comment another reader points you to this fact. To ignore it once again, is poor responsibility and bad hospitality.
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
Here’s why I’m ignoring Markos:
That’s what I posted in the pie fight diary. I can read other people on DailyKos, but I’m personally blocking or boycotting his diaries. And I suspect other people are too. Let’s see how he likes it when his diaries end up with 100 comments and the diaries on the recommended list end up with 300 comments.
.
It never bothered me to get a troll rating from a single assh…, that’s all in the game. However, when the norm becomes that a group of brown shirts starts adding to his/her vile comment/opinion, that really sucks and turns me off. Any blog, Daily Kos included, would illustrate a disgusting trend that is not healthy for the soul, or spirit.
Trust comes at a snail’s pace, but leaves at hare’s speed!
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
You nailed the tone. I didn’t post a reply over there because I figured it was pointless, but you nailed it, that was one great post.
Thanks…sometimes I get fired up.
I gave you a four because you reminded me that I was much happier when I stayed off the front page (I’m there for the community mostly) fights and just spent time in diaries.
Of course, I would have come across the fight anyway in the diary.
I think Kos simply doesn’t realize that when he attacks a segment of the community he strikes a blow against the community as a whole and the reverberations continue long after the harsh words have scrolled away. No one else has that kind of power to influence the general tone. But I’ve always been able to separate Kos from the community and agree his stand-off attitude is the best policy. I just wish he had followed that policy and hadn’t involved himself in this battle.
My feeling is he was attacked in e-mails and made the unfortunate and rash decision to attack in kind. Very unfortunate.
While I don’t agree that everything Kos posts can be found in the diaries, I do agree the Kos is not the reason many people go to the site. OTOH, he is the main draw for others. Those others probably find these community squabbles to be tedious at best.
Besides, I haven’t given you a four since, well one of your comments on the front page diary in question.<g>
I saw that ad but didn’t click on it. My reaction to the women pictured was that it must be awfully uncomfortable to walk around with the weight equivalent of a dachshund strapped to your chest.
I’ve just read Georgia10’s diary on the issue, this morning, and Kos’s statement but not all the diary comments. I found dKos originally when there was a flap over his intemperate remarks regarding the Blackwater contractors who were killed in Fallujah. He has since made a number of other inflammatory, ill-thought-out statements that probably don’t serve the progressive cause, but that seems to be who he is.
He’s smart, opinionated, a genius at putting together a progressive web site, and–when push comes to shove–very young. That he is not also a well-reasoned voice of moderation is just what’s so about him.
So I can’t get too worked up over this tempest in the dKos teapot. I simply avoid flame wars like that, and lately find myself spending more time here and at [New International Times http://www.newinternationaltimes.com].
I do, however, find the subject matter of the argument interesting. I know men are obsessed with women’s breasts, and I notice that there are remarkably few academic studies (because men control the purse strings?) about why that is. Perhaps what we have is a western world in which men are suffering from a form of arrested development and separation-from-mother anxiety?
That would explain a lot of our recent history.
I’ve just joined this site after reading Booman’s diary and following the link from dailyKos, and I was thinking the same thing, that this kos fellow must be young, to have made such an impatient remark. He’s not getting the Long March sensibility that so many older progressive women bring to the discussion.
Twenty-some years ago when I lived in England I was a programmer involved in support, and this took me out to a printing firm in Bristol one day. After solving the problem, the blokes, the guys invited me to tour the plant and see the big machines. It had been such a congenial visit that I was happy to take the tour.
And that’s how I came to be standing next to a machine with a very explicit picture of a naked woman pasted on a support column, what they call split beaver. The guy leaned an elbow on this very stanchion and told me all about the machine and how it worked. I wasn’t leered at and there was no suggestive behavior at all — there was just this extremely strange juxtaposition of a collegial mixed group of equals and this picture.
It was on me to ignore the picture and maintain the friendliness between this client and my firm. To this day, I don’t think the matter was intentional; the fellows simply didn’t think of it. Maybe, in some way, they didn’t see it. I don’t really understand.
But I can’t see an ad like the pie thing (“Mmmmmmm … meringue!”) without being thrown back to that experience. I participated in the dialogue, but was prepared to move on. Then I saw Kos’s post and felt very, very sad.
I too just joined this morning…
As a online community developer, I think that dKos has gotten dysfunctional, I am not sure what the causes of the problem are but I have a feeling they have a lot to do with leadership, purpose issues and those not being clear, reinforced and nurtured…
Can’t take anymore and have chosen a brand new screen name to accompany why I see as an opportunity for a fresh start!
you both. 🙂
I joined here a little while ago, but came back today with the intention of hanging around (if you’ll have me). I wasn’t so much personally offended or insulted by Kos’ comments – but I did feel as if I’d been spending a lot of time at this great party, chatting and learning, and listening to some incredibly intelligent people. Some I agreed with, many I didn’t – no matter, what a great party. Then I turned around one day and found that the host was showing me the door. It seems like the only gracious thing to do is to thank him for the previous hospitality – and leave. So here I am – I’ll go back to lurking now…
Welcome to all three new members
pssst. . .I need to speak in a very soft voice now, so please don’t blow my cover. The only concern you need have is if Diane101 – aka the BT Ambassador to New Folks – finds out you’re here. Before you know it she’ll have you posting your bio – along with a family tree and pictures of your last vacation :^)
But that alone speaks volumes about the dynamics of this site – when the “new guy hazing” consists of a welcoming committee.
Yep – Diane101 found me, and the bio is up. But as someone mentioned on the welcome thread – it’s kind of ‘warm and fuzzy’ inspiring. <blush>
Similar experiences. How about, visitng a strip mine in eastern Kentucky, or a midwest manufacturing plant, mid ’70s? They had to be nice to me; I was the one who said yes or no on the loan they wanted.
Cleaning out some old papers this morning, came across a newspaper article I wrote 10–count ’em, ten–years ago about a pay-discrimination case. The first graf:
Plus ca change . . .
And as a side note, notice what Bush does with the press corps: calls them by their first names, or nicknames that he imposes on them, while they have to address him by an honorific.
routine with that? Well, y’know what he said, those doctors just love women.
Except for my first female ob-gyn. And she was the first to ask if she could call me by my first name — and to ask me to call her by hers . . . unless I’d prefer otherwise.
Btw, Kos is running very slowly this AM… takes like forever for a new page to open.
I’ve already replied to you re this amazing discussion you might be interested but it was on a comment that is a few days old so here it is again…
http://dailykos.com/story/2005/6/5/224929/9354
it is about the insurgency and a spin off of the The Zarqawi Myth.
I noticed that too-it took me forever to get to recommend your Iraq diary!
That place seems to go into convulsions every week or so over something or another (many times issues involving women). Personally, I think they like the give and take of that, as each of those types of diaries seems to wind up with 500+ comments (I have no idea what the comments are saying, though…who wants to read all that?).
Anyway, even when this site gets bigger I doubt there will be the same sorts of upheavals because this is just a completely different atmosphere, for a number of reasons.
1)Booman listens and tries to address issues, even if he doesn’t ultimately agree with the person themselves (or they with him). But the agreement isn’t really the main thing, the listening is. That’s important, even in a sort of self run type site. I think there is more anger over the dismissal of concerns as unimportant (even though they may be, in the overall scheme of things) than there is over disagreement on the concerns themselves.
2)Women have always felt welcome and encouraged here, not as “women” but as an integral part of the site, which in turn allows, I think (going all stereotypical here, don’t sue me) a more holistic type approach… where we in one day can discuss slavery, rays of hope, human rights, religion, beautiful days, US and European politics and ghostdancing, giving equal weight to each.
Plus, of course, mutual respect, getting to know you diaries, and so on.
I don’t know if you were wrong to defend Markos, but I think there are many other issues involved over there beyond just pie fights and ads.
that Booman addresses issues. I joined early on (UID:31), and one of my early comments was the need for a link back to the homepage at the bottom of the page. Not only did we get that, but we also got a “top of page” link. Very cool, for those of us who forget our keyboard shortcuts.
I can’t believe I’ve wasted my morning reading these pie threads. I get enthralled by flamewars, watching how people pick at each other and argue past each other’s points. It’s a sick fascination, I admit.
Booman, I appreciate your defense of Markos because I suspect you have a dread in the back of your mind that someday, in a rush, you might say something stupid and be chastised by your own community. But, when that day comes, I believe you will listen to the outrage and not just say, “Screw you!” You seem to be a very thoughtful guy and you shifted your position a little when more information was provided in the comments to your dKos diary. You began to realize that the issue wasn’t a stupid ad; it’s Markos’ recurrent fuck-you attitude that set off the firestorm.
Over the past few months, Markos has made a number of callous statements that caused me to mutter, “What an asshole!” So, I’ve drifted and shifted my community allegiance here, to a more civilized forum. There’s a limit to how many times Markos can flip-off dissenting opinions before his click-count goes down and he’s rapidly approaching that cliff.
I hope Catnip finds her way here…
I too, have that same “problem”! 😉
But the pie threads just crashed my browser over and over again, so I took that as a sign!
I hope to see catnip here as well!
Stay away from diaries where the reply count exceeds 350… 🙂
There should be an auto-mechanism there that rolls over diaries after they hit, oh, 250 or so posts. I’d say about 150-200 if people post images.
I have had a couple diaries that went over 300 posts, and I never got to read any of those posts. Which is a bummer.
Chiming in…
I spend virtually all of my blog time at DK, and hop over to Boo and the Next Hurrah because authors I like at DK contribute to, or run these alternative blogs.
(Wow, Blogs now have alternative blogs…hmmm.)
Anyway, when I began like any new user I lurked around the front page stories, but more and more I spent my time on the recommended and recent diaries written by others, and seldom commented on by Markos himself. I see it as a community with 50,000 contributors, and hardly see whatever Markos is writing. Plus, he seems to write less and less as he gets other tv or press opportunities. Maybe that is a good thing. Maybe not.
Right or wrong, it is his site. BooMan has the same autonomy to write what he wants, and I will agree or disagree.
The differences in these two sites are obviously volume and content. At DK, you can get a lot of quick feedback, but a lot of one liners. You also can get a lot of disagreements because of the number of users. The breaking news seems to come faster via all the diary writers. I like that. Here, the content is deeper, but less likely to generate feedback, positive or negative. I wrote a few one liners and heard nuthin but crickets. I like both, and will continue to visit them both.
As for gender issues, call me an insensitive lout and a guy, but I really never noticed that from DK. Plutonium Page is a frequent contributor, Georgia10 gets her share of airtime…It all came as a surprise to me. And other than reading a bit such as quoted here, I won’t spend any time parsing or looking at the issue.
What I have noticed is the Fraudsters wars. It seems as the site becomes more popular, widely quoted and read, and contributed on by politicians, they are taking themselves too seriously. If people don’t understand that blogs have writers but also that anyone can pretty much say anything they want without the approval of the “administrators”, then they are the problem. For instance, if a persons speculates on fraud, then Rush announces that it was on DK, in an attempt to discredit DK, I fault Rush. These speculations (gannon) sometimes lead to very interesting and revealing investigations. That’s good.
So BooMan, to answer your question…I don’t think you were wrong to defend Markos, and I agree that the infighting is bad for the cause. I don’t see it here, but I think it is a volume thing. I don’t think Markos is anti-women, but he certainly attracts an element of the most outspoken women in the world. But having 50,000 people parse your every word comes with the territory, so like many a contributors, he may need to toughen up. He could have chosen not to respond, but perhaps in this a new kernel of understanding and growth will sprout.
Ok, I’ve read the posted link and the comments that followed. I would like to read the faction-fight but I’m not even going to try to download a diary and 767 comments. I did read the front page part of the ‘Non-Apology’ diary so my comments will be directed to that.
Markos is a public figure. In the Progressive Blog World he is a major public figure. He is no longer just some guy with a blog. His words will be taken seriously and people will react to them. He just can’t sit down and flame away without provoking a strong reaction.
Granted running a blog is ‘hard work’ and, granted, we all do things on the spur of the moment we regret but why didn’t the guy write something like (copied from wobblie’s comment):
“I understand the pie-fighting ad offended a certain segment of this community. I am the one responsible for selling blog-ad space [if that’s actually the case], and I felt that this particular ad was appropriate for this site. I will continue to choose ads that I feel are appropriate for and will continue to support this community blog, even if they may offend certain members.”
Which, as wobblie observed, gets the exact point across without antagonizing people.
Women and men have different styles of communication and bring different preconceptions to a conversation. A man should never think the words he uses mean exactly the same to a woman they mean to him and a woman should never think the words she uses mean exactly the same to a man it means to her. This is one of the fundamental findings of Gender Studies. I am NOT saying the one is better or worse than the other; I just saying the two are different.
I conceed Booman’s points but I don’t think they really strike at the main problem.
Well that was badly written.
“the main problem” was ill-chosen. Please insert “the fundamental issue” instead.
Everything I could say has been said by aloha and nanette much better…
There is something intangible going on here at Booman, it’s like a “Cheers” thing, where its just ten thousand times more comfortable here for a reason I can’t put my finger on..
Pax
I’m wondering if your comfort level has been generated by the more active involvement of women (susanhu, diane101, and the rest of ya’all) from the beginning.
Well Susan has been a big part of it, that’s for sure, simply because she “burst onto the scene” at the end of 2004 on Dkos with a series of amazing diaries… and then when she “roosted” here it made the transition all that much simpler.
But I don’t want to make it a male vs. female thing either, I really don’t. Whether it’s Jerome or Welshman or even Boo himself, this website is the sum total of all its members… and there is something intangible going on here that’s really special that Dkos has lost, or never had, or just wasn’t suited for.
I’m not really sure what the quote unquote “purpose” of this website is, but I’ve seen Kos on CSPAN and I’ve heard him talk about his purporse, and mostly its about “capturing the anger” of the anti-Bush crowd. Here it feels like somethring more than that, it feels like more of a “community” rather than just a mirror image of LGF of Freepertown or any of those other sites.
100 years ago the President of the United States (or a Senator or any other politician) would give a speech to as many people as could hear his voice. Then the newspapers would print it in full and people all across the land would gather together to discuss and debate the merits of what he had to say… in some strange way I feel like that’s what goes on here.
DKos on the other feels to me like everyone’s auditioning for Crossfire and the quicker you can outsnark the other guy/woman, the better. And while it makes for some smug participants, it leaves all the rest of us feeling quite… disenchanted.
I always feel like I’m visiting Boo’s house here, sitting in one of his easy chairs and having a chat with a fellow visitor.. a very 221B Baker Street feeling.. and it’s nice. I can almost see the cat curled up by the fireplace. When I’m at Dkos I feel like I’m in the middle of the NYSE trying to shout for a “buy” order.
It’s easy to think that politics is some kind of objective science and its unconnected to every day people living every day lives.. but all of us ARE every day people, whether brothers, sisters, sons, daughters, fathers, mothers, grandmothers, grandfathers or otherwise.. and politics isn’t some distinct and removed thing, it’s part of our ordinary daily lives. It’s no less and no more important than the price of bread at the store…
As I said in my first comment, I can’t quite put my finger on why this place has devolved into my first stop in the morning. But it has. And if it’s because of the number of women here, then all the better. Women have always been the standard bearers and propagators of culture and in the case of BMT, they are doing a fantastic job…
Pax
the NYSE comparison seems apt. sometimes when I go over there (less and less these days) I just wish some of the people would leave for a while and go do something in the real world. and it’s not just a dKos problem but a blogosphere problem. how can you think and reflect on something if you’re constantly posting?
it’s almost like there should be a time limit each day/week for how long one can be logged onto dKos (or Booman?)…
That would be AWESOME!! And if you went over your time allottment, you’d get a little message that says something like:
Hello! You need to go spend some time in RL! Come back next week and tell us all about it! We’ll still be here, promise! Go on, go! Git!
Bingo!
You nailed it. I was addicted to DK–it was a big part of my life for more months than I care to mention. Then, I accidentally overKosed. As a result I weaned myself off the site so that I only go over for a short (relatively speaking) time every day. I took DK off a Firefox tab and have to go into bookmarks to get it so the desire to swing over isn’t as great. Turns out the desire is waning naturally.
Note: BT is a active tab, but I lurk here more than I post, even though it’s also a place I visit several times a day.
Anyway, I stepped away from the computer for my life on the other side of the screen. Odd thing is that when I go back into DK and read the posts it’s like looking at who I used to be. Posting and responding to posts was my life. These little fights and wars would be almost humorous if the psychic damage they cause to the community wasn’t so obvious.
This split is as bad as I’ve seen. And for what? An ad. Kos should have probably ignored the criticism. Those offended would have probably peeled off and the tensions wouldn’t have escalated. That’s the problem with broadbrushing–you end up insulting a lot more people than you originally intended to.
Me? Didn’t see the ad, don’t give a damn about what Kos chooses to advertise. His site. His choice. I’m a firm believer that images and words only have power I give to them. In this case I choose not to give them the power to influence me.
I’ve been through some negative cycles on DK, but lately there has been a sustained negativity that I keep expecting to lift like it always has in the past. Yet it remains. I can’t put my finger on why it feels different. Maybe when something gets so big it just ends up collapsing on itself. Maybe I’m just pining for the good ol’ days when the mix of fun and serious was almost equal. Who knows?
I’ve been playing around with the idea of posting a diary for a week or so, but it’s hard to consider expending the effort when the atmosphere is so muddled.
Can a website lose its sense of humor? And with things so bleak in our world that’s about all I have to hold onto to get through the day. I won’t give up on DK, but I do spend a lot more time on the other side of the screen. My life is better for it. <g>
My two cents.
One of the differences I note here is the use of the rating system. Here “4” is commonly used as a sign of agreement, but lower ratings (to indicate disagreement) are rare. When someone disagrees they seem more inclined to write a reasoned reply. At Kos there are things one simply cannot say, however “nicely”, without someone coming along and throwing a put-down “0” or “1” on it. The counter-intuitive result is that discussion here is more reasoned, over there it is more confrontational.
Of course it’s smaller, and slower, here, so there’s time to consider ones response . . . I’m sure that too has something to do with the more temperate “atmosphere”.
And I love having spellcheck . . . (and I really love it that spellcheck flags spellcheck)
I picked the wrong (or right?) weekend to stay away from a computer. I don’t have much to add except to say welcome to the new members. This is a busy week with the Michael Jackson jury deliberations so we need to keep our eyes on the ball…oops, bad joke.
No, no, no! The big story is the missing coed!
Until the Jackson jury comes back, that is.
P.S. Glad you’re back 🙂
How come only females are coeds?
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!
Do you really think us BooTribunistas of the male persuasion are that stupid to get into that discussion?
🙂
Being a foreigner (ie, English not my first language), I was not aware of the distinction until recently. I erroneously used the term for a male and curly told me: “Hm. No, the word is only used for females.” (paraphrased)
I inquired why, but IIRC received only a general response ala ‘that’s just the way it is’.
So, what’s the real story?
used to be female students at institutes of higher education were unheard of…when we went the places that had both halves of hummanity in their student body were called “co-educational institutions” — since the guys were there first, the girls got deemed coeds…
At least that’s how I understand it! 😉
btw, I would have NEVER known that English is your second language — I am so in awe of the bi- and multi-lingual!!
It seems to me another one of those “gender” issues that aren’t really about gender but about power…if the female students were just called students along with their male peers, that would be an implicit recognition of equality…it’s one of those things that people say and they think they’re being “cutesy” and “harmless”, when actually, the backstory belies that completely.
but I mainly use co-eds to mean horny cohabitating college students, which is really what the word came to describe…
the controversy over male/female dorms in the 60’s, right?
Or am I way off?
That’s basically what I thought. An educational (non-segregated) facility for both sexes – with ample opportunity for intermingling and whatever that may result in..
but I’m not saying that it doesn’t get done! Hell, I’m only 39, I’ve still got time to hear it!
heh. 😉
Thanks brinnaine – for the explanation and compliment.
I’ve actually lived 15 of the last 18 years in the NYC-area (I’m 48). Norwegian, 2 kids living in NYC with their mother (close to me, I see them all the time). Less active on Kos since I found this place in mid-March. Attracted by the greater interest for international news, the more leisurely pace and better tone. Great to see so many ‘newbies’ (who aren’t really – I recognize many handles) most of whom are women, it seems. I recently perusaded my girlfriend to register, which she occasionally does as ‘curly’.
on the appropriate presentation of my smiley face in that last comment, I completely effed up my spelling. That would be “Please do”
on the reading. It’s hard work…I may have to eat lunch at my desk 😛
If you get it done in some fashion, can you fill me in? You know, give me the Cliff’s Notes version?
“This is a busy week with the Michael Jackson jury deliberations so we need to keep our eyes on the ball”
That wasn’t a bad joke. It was a very well-positioned comment that brought a smile to my face :^)
I would like to take a moment to welcome the ne Tribers and to say you will most likely find this a nice place to hang out. You will find intelligent, informed, thoughtful folks with alot of love and respect for one another. As I said earlier upthread, hope this “Cheers” atmosphere doesn’t go south with the growth. Yonder over to hidden comments and you will find only two and one was Boo trying out the status thing. We don’t use 0/1/2 to disagree here, we use our words and thoughts and try for the most part to remain civil. Any community will have disagreements and such but it is how we react to theose things that makes a difference. Kos had a knee jerk reaction and look what insued. Enough said.
How was your trip to the Old Pueblo? It wasn’t too hot that weekend, lucky for you!
Hey Egee…no not hot at all. Big winds though the first night there and rained heavily twice. In between got in two rounds of golf and beat the families butt at texas Holdem to the tune of $75. Love coming home with money. I can’t come close to beating them on the golf course. Only one close call to a fight with repub sis over social security. Had to pull out the old “we agreed not to discuss politics” card. Thanks for asking!!
I don’t think Kos’ comments about the ad are defensible. The ad itself, while arguably sexist, is not the issue. The issue is the dismissal of the concerns of women and feminists on the site by Kos and the legion of snotty sexist liberals on the site.
There is a long history of progressive change being derailed by old boy’s clubs. It’s one of the main factors that tore about the New Left in the 1960s and 1970s. The concerns of women are not a marginal issue, and even when one thinks that certain feminists are overreacting, their concerns should be treated with respect.
Women have repeatedly been marginalized throughout history by belittling their concerns, and laughing at them while claiming that they have a poor sense of humor for not laughing along. Anyone, man or woman, who has ever been in any social situation where their words and thoughts were the subject of ridicule or flip dismissal should be able to appreciate how demeaning this attitude is. It’s a way of making people, in this case women, uncomfortable as equal members of the social group.
Progressivism is ultimately about people of different backgrounds treating each other with respect and finding the common ground to fight for our collective common interests. That means acknowledging differences honestly and treating others with disrespect even when disagreeing. That doesn’t mean we should avoid saying anything controversial, or create an inflexible party line. That doesn’t mean that we can’t make jokes, so long as those jokes are not as the expense of real concerns of parts of the community. It just means being respectful and polite while emphasizing our common concerns and acknowledging the complexities of our own own diversity.
As for dailykos, sexism regularly rears its head there. I’ve been known to use words like “pussy” as general epithets or “balls” to represent determination, but I try to avoid them, and I do think that their prevalence at dailykos is a sign of disrespect to women. Again and again, jokes and insults are made that rely upon demeaning women in some way or upholding male virility as the ideal, and every time that happens my respect for that community declines.
I thought over time things might get better there, but the fact is they’ve gotten worse, and now Kos has implicitly given his approval for this climate by his front page post, and also implicitly tarred those bothered by the climate on the site as Lieberman-like moralists. It’s a shame, and I think he should reconsider, apologize, and renew his commitment to a community that is inclusive and respectful, and places respect for women at a premium. If he can’t do that, my participation there will continue to decline. There’s enough smug dismissal of women in the mainstream media, and enough progressive communities that don’t do that, for me to waste my time there.
I hope this site can be a contrary example. That there is an international focus here is a hopeful sign that we understand the importance of respecting diversity. We should extend that to respect toward women, even when we disagree on specific issues.
“_ There is a long history of progressive change being derailed by old boy’s clubs. It’s one of the main factors that tore about the New Left in the 1960s and 1970s._”
Yup. I was around there/then and agree, agree, agree.
Thank you for this warm welcome. I am another ex-dkos feminist scholar. The last two weeks there have been very disturbing. I feel more at home here already.
BooMan, since you asked, I don’t think you needed to defend Markos. I think frankly he’s got some maturing to do in this area, and reinforcement of his current position isn’t going to hasten that.
But hey, I took his advice and left. I’m looking for something less combatative, and frankly more consistenly progressive. Somewhere where I can talk about the power relationships of men and women as evidenced by language choice, and not be scolded for trafficking in “gonad politics.” Somewhere where debate can be more reasoned. I like what I see here so far!
On the issue of “maturation”–Mr. Moulitsa is 34 years old, a husband, a father, a graduate of Boston University School of Law, a veteran of the US Army, and is fast becoming an “establishment” figure in the Democratic Party.
Honestly, I don’t think that the passing years are going to make him any more insightful on women’s issues than he is right now. What insight I have into his character is that Mr. Moulitsa has become increasingly arrogant as his power and influence have increased. I’ve seen it happen before. Remember Lord Acton’s maxim about the corruption of power? It’s so famous I don’t feel the need to quote it in its entirety.
I will say that yes, people can grow, but in order to grow and change they have to admit that growth and change are necessary. I don’t see that attitude with Mr. Moulitsa–he has an “I’m alright, Jack!” attitude. Ah, well.
(By the way, Booman–thanks for the spellcheck…it’s a lovely feature that prevents me from posting those typographical errors that make my comments unintelligible!)
I was so impressed by your diary on dKos, that I came over here to check you out. I liked what I saw, so here I am. Kos’ site has become huge and somewhat overwhelming. I like that this site is smaller and seems friendly. I think I will stick around.
Pull up a keyboard and jump right in. lowkey, laidback but very interesting stuff going on here. It will take awhile to slow down coming in from dkos but diaries are here for days so you never have to miss one.Are you from Chicago? I ask because of your screen name.
Thanks for the warm welcome! And, yes, you guessed right. I am from the great city of Chicago – sometimes affectionately called “Chi-Town.”
P.S. That is pronounced Shy-Town.
Yes, I know. I grew up just 45 miles northwest of the city but spent alot of time taking the train into downtown. I am in San Diego now. Went to the Padre/Cub games two nights this weekend. Cubs surprisingly took the series. What fun that was. Over half the stadium was filled with Cub fans. Once again…happy you found your way here.
At least your diary on dKos brought some nice newcomers§
Welcome to asterlil, brinnaine, Lynchi, susanw, ubikkibu…
It’s a nice place here, I think you’ll like it!
First of all I’d like to say howdy to everyone as I just joined. I’ve been reading the site for a couple of weeks, but just joined today.
Secondly, am I the only person who had to look up internecine? Might have to invest in some word of the day toilet paper.
Finally and more on point, I don’t think it’s ever a mistake to stand up for something you believe in a reasonable and thoughtful manner. And although I agree with what you were saying, I don’t agree that it is applicable in that situation since I think the issue was more about a continued attitude rather than a quick post.
Personally, I haven’t decided how I feel about the whole issue yet. I may pull a Scarlet O’Hara and think about it another day.
the double-ply, you get two words each day. It’s the only way I can keep up with Boo and Susan. (Bienvenidos!)
What about a “Word of the day thread”?
or “Concept of the day thread”?
new things. Here is today’s (obviously)
in·ter·nec·ine
adj.
Okay, I have to go now. I feel like a total geek.
Let’s make it an intercultural Word of the day:
In French, “internecine infighting” would translate into “luttes intestines”
Thanks much! I’ve been so busy trying to catch up on the issues at hand that I needed to postpone my Websters research. (Which I can now save for another time and another new word)
and welcome to all the newbies!
NYC is to Kos::Mobile is to BooTrib. I go to the both blogs for the same reason I like both these cities — each satisfies different aspects of my personality and intellect.
In NYC, you’re likely to be elbowed aside, if not kicked to the curb. In Mobile, they’ll drench you in hospitality, if not kill you with kindness. Either way, the eatin’ is good in both places. Different, but good.
Hmmm. . .my 6:54 PM attempt to login at DK is greeted with a “We’ll be right back. . .DailyKos is undergoing maintenance at this time.” Odd.
When someone starts calling their political allies “sanctimonious,” that’s fecklees behavior. Sadly, I speculated in a huffy post over there that the right-wing nuttery would be gleefully feasting on the offensive ad diary and its thread. Kos would be hoist on his own petard by that echelon.
There are times when one must simply “draw the veil.”
.
but for an excellent California wine!
You summed the Kos matter up, in a concise and right to the point comment. All is said, let’s just have some fun.
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
.
Join the fun and receive lots of mojo. Especially the new UID #1001 thru #1032 – yep we can still count the numbers, but like to know more about you. Newcomers — asterlil, brinnaine, Liberalpalooza, Lynchi, susanw, ubikkibu …
All newbies will get some attention from our Ambassador Diane101 in her WELCOME diaries. A special diary —
Meet Diane101
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
I just put up a new welcome diary,
http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2005/6/6/162047/9358
for telling us about you. All oldtimes please go to diary also and tell newcomers what a great site this is and what we like about it.
Welcome all newbies and come on over to my diary….Bring pics as Oui says…
We will give you lots of mojo!!!!!!
.
9 hours difference with California – I better turn in. Do have some fun and enjoy introduction of the Newbies. Great contribution people!
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
Well Boo since you asked: You have every right to write what you want to or in defense of anyone you choose. And I have the right to disagree with you.
Kos can write anything he wants also but it is the TONE of his diary that is so utterly and completely offensive to me. He was arrogant, condescending and seemingly completely clueless as to how many woman and no doubt many men would react to that idiotic ad.
It seems as if he was almost trying to be offensive. As for the ad itself…if I want to see something that stupidly childish and on the level of a 9 year old boy I might check out Playboy or some other male magazine.
Maybe we should turn this around and imagine the ad as between Gilligan and the Skipper. They are both wearing excruciatingly tight speedo briefs while they wrestle each other in a ‘sexy, gay manner while having water splashed on their gigantic penis’s’. Is everyone imagining that now and thinking well why should I be offended or whatever else Kos was yaking about…I’m not saying I’d be offended I would just think it was stupid.(pretty much like that dumb Paris Hilton commercial for Burger King with her in a bikini and washing a car..who dreamed up that idiotic idea?)
I very rarely go to Kos anymore and doubt I will unless someone here links to a diary there.
As other people have said there is just something more comfortable about this site yet fosters more thoughtful responses and discussions instead of everyone trying to one-up each other on snarky comments(although they are great fun to do at times).
Booman has created a well rounded site for everyone and especially for us women..but that wouldn’t be possible without all the great guys here who accept us as equals. While that may sound silly, there is still way, way too much downplaying of women’s intellects and opinions in the real world.
.
About eight years after we were married, my partner attended the annual company party of Aramco where she previously was employed. Noticing her perky attitude, one of the men remarked: “Well you haven’t changed a bit!”
I thought that was the nicest compliment anyone could make. You don’t want to marry someone, and redesign her into a different person or personality.
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
you’re welcome but I have to say that at times I feel out of my depth with your great diaries and comments and I mean that as a compliment also…as anything that makes me think more and a bit harder or do some extra research is always, always good. And a hello to your partner also.
Thanks for letting me in. I knew immediately that this is where I was meant to be.
Now I’ll go join the newbie spot!
.
More often, when I published my diary @ dKos, a feeling arose similar to a fresh hot blueberry pie, placed on the window sill for cooling.
The first moments of introduction of the new diary, was to swat the flies, the noninvitees, they are not aware of the delicious pie content, or didn’t care. As soon as you lose this fight at the start, your diary is doomed to sink like a rock.
At BooTrib, the passersby compliment you on the pie, and help you swat the flies, to preserve its content for the connoisseur.
Thanks BooMan for an inspiring home, whatever you need, you can always count on me.
PS Sometimes it’s disappointing to wake up at 6:00AM, and you discover you missed out on much of the fun. The 6 hours time difference Europe ~ NY EDT can be an offset. By 10:00 AM, when posting my comments, I learn that the last 5 posts at BooMan usually are all mine. Do hope we can increase the numbers globally, and have a true 24/7 international blog.
Oui aka @dKos as creve coeur and new creve coeur
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
on the west coast here – doing my part for 24/7…
Boo, you can write what you want, and defend markos if you really want to.
But the point remains that kos’s post was not just wrong, but downright rude. The problem isn’t his position – though saying, basically, “women don’t matter” is pretty damn bad – but the way he states it. He very openly states that anyone who’s in favour of women’s rights, and of feminist principles in general, is on par with Joe Lieberman. He’s equated feminism and feminists to a man with a good fraction of 100,000 deaths on his shoulders, and dismissed it out of hand as irrelevant and silly and harmful.
That I have a problem with.
And I don’t care about his apology. I also don’t care to be part of a community with a few hundred people who agree with the position that women’s rights are irrelevant and silly.