The other night, Lorraine asked if folks would be interested in an ongoing gender theory discussion group. Foolishly, I was the first to express an interest, and thus the first to post. (I’ll get you Lorraine…) While I originally discussed putting it up on Friday night, I might be heading to a protest tomorrow evening, so I don’t know if I’ll be around–I’m posting it tonight.
Before I start, a note. Some of these conversations might get into some heavy-duty theory, and technical and abstract language–we’ve got some theory geeks here (me included). If you haven’t read up on or aren’t into academic theory, don’t worry. Instead, ask us what the hell we’re talking about. Those of us who work in the academy, who do this for a living, have a tendency to get stuck speaking academese. One of the things I’m concerned with–and I know others are as well–is how to translate highly abstract and technical language into English. There are some powerful ideas out there, but they do no good if nobody understands `em. Dig in everybody. Share your thoughts….please.
That’s the other point of this: we’re doing theory. Take this as an opportunity to ask, challenge, agree, or even laugh. And be careful…one of my friends recently commented that she’d never seen anyone who could write so academically while at the same time dropping multiple F-bombs. Theory can be fun…and funny. Below the fold we’ll get this party started.
Today, I’m gonna talk a bit about gender, knowledge, and the body. The discussion will take a few detours along the way, but I think they’ll all make sense in the end. At least, I hope so.
I’ll start with some basic assumptions laid out by the slacker who got me to write this thing:
Scott’s definition of gender has two parts and several subsets; they are interrelated but analytically distinct. Her definition rests on two propositions:
2. gender is a primary way of signifying relationships of power.
It is the perception of difference that I want to focus on, particularly as it relates to biological knowledge. I guess, what I’m talking about is the way sex is gendered (and, no, I’m not talking about doing the nasty).
Well, getting to the nasty, it was recently reported that scientists had bred “lesbian” fruit flies…on purpose! (Scientists were able to do this with male fruit flies several years ago.) This sent some gay folks into a tizzy, “See? That’s further evidence it’s genetic.”
I don’t know what kinds of causal mechanisms have made it such that a male body sets me atingle while a female body does pretty much nothing for me. I also don’t care. I do, however, find the search for a biological cause to be fascinating.
At this point I’d like to return to the Fleck quote above. In a culture such as the Sambia, where adult males force boys to perform fellatio and ingest semen as a part of their initiation rituals, (see Gil Herdt’s Guardians of the Flute) the idea that we would need to find a cause for the desire to engage in ingestive male-male fellatio would be ridiculous. It isn’t desire, but necessity: the ingestion of semen allows the initiates to build up a store of it in their own bodies. It is necessary to become a man. Our desire to find a “cause for homosexuality” comes from a different definition of homosexual behavior–for the Sambia, it’s a necessity for becoming a man, for us it is based in desire and helps define who we are as people. We’ve created a whole social type around it. (People in our society might also call the Sambia behavior child sexual abuse, which would lead us into another category of people-pedophiles….) Western biologic has conditioned us to look inside the body to determine why human behavior occurs. Our cultural stock knowledge provides a base for scientific knowledge.
Often, when discussing male/female-related stuff, we make a distinction between sex and gender. Sex is biology, gender is the social stuff that gets attached to sexed bodies. However, what I want to bring into this conversation is something I learned from Anne Fausto-Sterling: Sex is gendered.
Most societies tend to recognize two sexes, while others have created more categories. “Male” and “female” are categories imposed upon nature. Nature itself has failed to make these categories exhaustive and exclusive. Fausto-Sterlilng, in an “order-of-magnitude estimate” has calculated that about 1.7% of live births produce intersexed babies (pp. 51-3).
“So, what?” you might ask. Well, for many folks born in these sexual interstices, the “so what” becomes surgical “correction”:
Doctors insist on two functional assessments of the adequacy of phallus size. Young boys whould be able to pee standing up and thus to “feel normal” during little boy peeing contests; adult men, meanwhile, need a penis big enough for vaginal penetration during sexual intercourse. (p. 57 in Fausto-Sterling).
If the phallus isn’t predicted to be large enough for those activities, off a part of it comes and a “clitoris” is constructed. Note how the determination of which sex to make these folks is based on social considerations, particularly associated with pee-pee size.
It might be argued, however, that their gender is altered, their sex isn’t as they will remain genetically one or the other. My only response would be this: depends which criteria you’re using to define sex. This brings us back to Lorraine’s original post and point Number 1–perceived differences between the sexes. Which parts of the body matter? The answer to that will vary as conditions merit. Doctors may not be able to create a genetic female from a baby born genetically male, but they can make a genital one…sort of.
The dichotomous gender system we live with has other implications. For instance, we often discuss such things as “sex” hormones as male (testosterone) and female (estrogen). What we forget is that men and women both have these hormones circulating through their bodies…in varying concentrations. Their association with sexual development may obscure the fact that “they can best be conceptualized as hormones that govern the process of cell growth, cell differentiation, cell physiology, and programmed cell death. They are, in short, powerful growth hormones affecting most, if not all, of the body’s organ systems” (Fausto-Sterling, p. 193). Likewise, when a new study comes out highlighting some difference between the sexes, “men, as a group, are more likely to be __ than women, as a group” becomes “men are more ___ than women.” Statistical normality becomes categorical unity. Variation among men and among women is rendered insignificant in relation to variation between men and women. Indeed, the focus on difference as a result of sex may obscure how those differences flow from other sources.
Nature is more complex than our explanations of it will ever grasp, and the order we see in it is often an imposed one. It may be impossible to untangle the ways that our gendered preconceptions affect biological explanations. Can’t hurt to try, though.
Any thoughts?
Here’s how I thought we’d start this thing out. We’ll use this first comment–and responses to it–as a spot to discuss housekeeping issues for making this an ongoing, rotating, thing.
Avoiding responding to the diary on this comment thread…do that on threads below please…just makes things easier to organize.
In the discussion last night, we set up a starting posting schedule:
Tonight: Me
Next Friday: IndyLib
The following Friday: Lorraine
After that, though, it’s up for grabs. Here’s a thought I had. Starting with Lorraine’s post, the person who has the highest rated comment 24-hours after the diary is posted “wins” the privilege of hosting the following Friday’s Gender Klatsch. If that person has posted recently, they have the option of deferring to the next-highest rated commenter.
Does that work? Other ideas?
As I discussed above, I was going to post this Friday, and we discussed make this a Friday thing. I’m throwing the schedule off already, as I noted above, because I may be attending a protest tomorrow (a colleague has invited me to attend–it’s a group he’s working with to challenge some of the decisions by the Boston Archdiocese). This was done, so I posted it….my apologies for mucking up the schedule already.
I wouldn’t mind jumping on board to be a regular part of this discussion. I’d even jump at the chance of taking the next available diary.
you can have my spot. 🙂 (Seriously, I’m trying to buy a house and my brain is toast.)
Consider it filled.
We just bought a house this past winter. We managed to close it while 2000 miles away at my folks. I’ve never had to deal with so many freakin’ notaries or FedEx clerks.
Good luck!
Thursdays work for me, too. And anyone who wants to bump me to go next in line, well, go ahead. ‘coz I’m a slacker. 🙂
if it’s slacking or really good at delegating…you must have been an MBA in a previous life.
I’m trying to buy a house right now–wish me luck, I’m putting in an offer tomorrow a.m., and I’ve been a wee bit distracted. Otherwise, I’d have volunteered–but I’m thrilled that others are stepping forward. Way to go, Wobblie!
And good luck!!!!
Send the flying monkeys after any competing bidders…those buggers can do some real damage.
Fridays are good for me, and my intention is to post something around this time next Friday.
Sorry, the joke was there. The quote comes from “a guy” in one of my husband’s college classes, who was… unsettled… by a heavy, philosophical discussion. And, yes, he was serious. The hazards of a college education in New Jersey.
In all seriousness, this is a brilliant idea. It’s been some years since I left the halls of academia with my BA, in my hot little hands, but I think I can keep up.
The Sambia: are they the very war-like culture who refer to the ejaculate as “man milk?” I believe I read about this a while back.
I really look forward to delving into some of this, not just because of the recent conflagration, but because I find the deeper questions fascinating. Things like: is there a difference between “gender identity” and “sexual preference?” Transsexual lesbian, Rachel Pollack says, yes.
Thank you MAJeff for doing the heavy lifting of getting this going.
I know a gay trans-man (a woman who has reassigned physical sexual characteristics to match the individual’s mental gender). Sexual orientation didn’t change.
Straight woman becomes gay man. (one perspective)
But then, I know a bi-trans-man as well.
I think that the elements of brain sex and the phsyical ones are… only seen as being identical because people think of them as being such… based on what’s ‘normal’ (as in what’s probably the case, on average–math normal, not sociological normal).
I know I’m being a little flip, in the way I raised the question, but I’ve actually had long, painful discussions about this. Pollack comes to mind, in part, because we have a mutual friend, and in part, because I love her books on tarot. I think she’s brilliant. She’s apparently written articles on this topic. She’s like the living embodiment of that old joke “lesbian trapped in a man’s body.” She’s a tranny, and last I heard, she was living happily in Amsterdam with female partner.
Speaking strictly from personal experience, for me, there’s quite a distinction in these concepts. As far as sexual preference goes, although I’m a woman who generally prefers to have sex with other women, I do still sometimes find myself attracted to men. I haven’t had sex with men since the 80s, but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t have sex with men ever again. As far as gender identity goes, it is simply not particularly important to me, and I have turned out rather androgynous in presentation–although I can pass as quite butch or quite femme, given the proper accoutrement. I don’t much care about the gender identity of my partner(s), either, although I have to admit I find some kinds of genderfuck to be very sexy.
I usually identify as ‘queer’ just because it’s the easiest thing to say. A lot of people outside of the GLBTQ community seem to find my sexuality complicated, and to some degree, I occasionally run into that even inside the lesbian community. Probably more properly, I should say I’m pansexual, but people don’t know what that means, and I’m not always up for having a big discussion about it, and ‘queer’ has its own political implications. My gender identity is usually the more complicated thing for the straight community, because many of them don’t seem to understand how I’m not strongly identified with one side of the binary or the other. All the middle ground I occupy without much caring about it seems to unsettle some of them.
There’s a ‘lesbian’ film Go Fish that has a scene in it where a self-identified lesbian has sex with a man (a male friend, I think, but it’s been a while since I’ve seen the film). Following the scene is a collage of images of all these other women talking about how she’s betraying her identity, the community, she needs to make up her mind, what is she really, is she bisexual, maybe bisexuality is bullshit, maybe bisexuality isn’t bullshit but if she is bisexual then she’s not a real lesbian, and on and on. I’ve encountered all of these kinds of responses at one time or another over my sexual preferences, and then I’ve encountered the same range of responses (mostly from straight people) over my squishy gender identity.
Whew. If anyone has questions about this stuff, I’m happy to speak from my perspective and experience. My caveat is always that, though: I believe I can really only speak from my perspective and experience, and my gender diary next week will probably be kind-of about that.
"Brain Sex"
This helped me grapple with a lot of this while coming to understand sex and gender issues… which I thought I already did understand ([i]hahahahahahaha[/i]).
A friend who was going through dealing with being a trans-man loaned it to me, and it was profoundly useful. Whether its scientifically correct, time will tell. But unlike many proposed models and explanations, this one at least works, in that it includes and explains the range and diversity of people I’ve met, known, worked with, been friends with, loved….
Another:
"She’s Not There"
A marvellously lucid and transparent writer lets you see inside, get a look at the sort of experience and feelings and reactions that a trans- individual has.
My friend found it remarkably evocative of his experience–which is significant since the author’s experience is very similar… only with a gender swap in all the primary personae.
Listening to the Intersexed, by Suzanne Kessler.
Gender Outlaw, by Kate Bornstein
Sex Changes, by Pat Califia
Speaking Sex to Power, by Patrick Califia (Pat, the radical leather dyke, is not Patrick, the bi-identified transman.)
that last one should read “Pat…is now Patrick”….not “not”.
Thank you for the book rec. I had the experience of watching someone go through the process, and his (when he was a man) female partner stayed his partner and lover after he became a woman.
My friend’s married, with kids–my goddaughters.
They’re still married (legally!). Two men and their daughters. Apparently a gay couple….
It’s bent a lot of minds, straight, gay, trans.
His husband went through quite an experience when the vast bulk of his support network–those going through something similar–were lesbian women who were really unsettled by finding themselves suddenly… apparently… straight women in "normal" relationships.
We’ve found a lot of laughs in it all. But then, sex is one of those topics; so much charge in it that you’d better laugh a lot, because the only other option….
I gotta run, but I’ve heard a lot lately.
Fear, concern… and stuff about standard of care stuff that’s absurd….
Don’t overlook “Sex on the Brain” by Deborah Blum.
“Brain Sex” is good.
She wrote a follow up called “Why Men don’t Iron,” which is a favorite of mine. However, if you use the word “gender” daily you will probably hate it.
Ooooh. Since I don’t (use the word daily, and even frequently find myself unsure of whether I mean gender or sex…)… (and don’t iron) I’ll look for it.
Slacker reporting for duty. Don’t make me summon my flying monkeys, Jeff.
Okay. Here’s something I remember reading that ties into this.
You know how in those biology classes, when they explain how men’s little swimmers race up the vagina, through the cervix and into the fallopian tubes, looking for an egg? And how there’s all this sort of “survival of the fittest” and the best sperm gets to penetrate the egg and that’s how it works? Well, my understanding is that it’s becoming understood that the egg is not docile. That, in fact, the egg helps to do some of the selecting and sets her (women got the x-chromosome, so eggs gotta be girls, right?). So, the egg is quite assertive.
However, because we live in a gendered world, scientists who looked at what was going on saw sperm acting like male animals in the wild. And in fact, it may not be anything like that. The female egg may be quite aggressive, etc.
So, it’s not just that bodies are assigned behaviours based on our assumptions about “biological sex,” it’s that knowledge itself is based on an understanding of how we think sex is. I find this fascinating.
You haven’t called me “My Pretty” yet 🙂
The Sperm and the Egg…Emily Martin (right?)…was so thinking about using that article in this piece.
Sight is conditioned–we learn to notice certain stimuli and to interpret them. Our gendered understandings will play a role with visual interpretation (race is pretty big along these lines, too). It’s fascinating stuff, but it’s also incredibly easy to get lost in it…those are the times I start to ask “But what’s real” and go into existential crises.
those are the times I start to ask “But what’s real” and go into existential crises.
Put down the Sartre, and slowly back away. 😉
I’m a big fan of existential crises…but not too often. A little ontological security (love Giddens for that term alone) is a good thing from time to time.
Every semester I tell my classes, “I don’t mean to be cruel in saying this, but I hope each and every one of you goes through an existential crisis, where you question absolutely everything in your life. It will be difficult and painful, but when you emerge from it, it will have been worth it.”
Wait, I was supposed to emerge from it? Nobody ever tells me these things. And I have to find my own damned exit, of course. Sheesh.
Find your own exit?
Hell, you have to [I]make[/I] your own.
making your own way out…exactly
this is what I was going for:
Our knowledge about sex is pre-gendered.
that I’ve re-read the quoted text and find it’s making me really think more about this… it also seems to be a specific case of "We see the world through our own pre-existing assumptions and preconceptions."
Not that the specific point isn’t really a good one. It’s too damned easy to overlook the applicability of the general case to… most things.
Along similar lines, and relating to essentialist theories of sex and gendered behavior, there’s a very interesting dichotomy in the field observations of male and female zoologists. I’m blanking on the source right now, but some feminist theorist or another took note of these differences while zoologists were studying lion prides in the wild. The men saw the single male lion typically associated with the pride like a ‘king of his harem of females’ whereas the women saw it more like the females ‘letting’ the male hang around and sort-of ‘using’ him for breeding when they needed that.
Which is interesting on its own as an anecdote but becomes much more interesting when one considers the degree to which sex/gender arguments rest upon ‘the natural’, ie as divisions of labor and mating behavior in wild animals. For some time now, the bulk of these studies have been done by men and interpreted through their experience, so it’s reasonable to question the extent to which much of what we think we ‘know’ about ‘nature’ is really subjective knowledge filtered through a masculinzed lens.
I agree that one sees the world through one’s own lenses… and that a different set will show a different world.
But the views may both be correct, without contradicting each other.
Mutual benefit…
Sure. I’m big on multiplicitous thought. I didn’t mean to speak to the right or wrong of things, really, just that the bulk of accumulated knowledge skews male-centered and obscures female-centered viewpoints. Which, really, I think has led to a lot of ‘gender trouble’.
For example, if I’m discussing science with non-feminists (male or female) and I make certain challenges, I frequently hear, “But that’s a scientific fact!” Yeah, well, maybe, maybe not. I mean, I don’t see the rate of gravity as a gendered thing, but ‘facts’ about ‘nature’ are probably a lot more complicated than western civ has been giving them credit for being. When you stop to consider how much of our social structure and even disciplines like medicine are based on what we think we know about ‘nature’, it’s sort-of staggering to consider that we’ve probably been obscuring such large chunks of the picture.
How wonderfully insightful. I know that anthropology in particular has gone through this crisis of male vs. female view points on many issues.
This, IMHO, is where feminist theory gets hot – the epistemological issues which come from removing the observer from some Manichean vantage point and placing them back into the social context of their particular situation.
Ahem. Okay. A couple of things to point out about the determination about when you get to be a boy or a girl. Penis size.
You said point number 1 better than I did…good point.
The surgery to produce a clitoris is, well, not too good…the just cannot produce the same concentration of nerve endings surgically. They can’t “rewire” what exists (similar rewiring issues, albeit with a different system, arise, for instance, with the urinary tract for FTMs)
The answer to your first question is, Yes.
In the fundamental study Greek Homosexuality K.J. Dover wrote:
“It would be surprising if the [Ancient] Greeks had no criteria for the aesthetic judgement of male genitals, and in vase-painting the characteristic penis of a young male … is thin (sometimes notably thinner than a finger) and short (as measured from the base to the end of the glans). The small penis is … one of the desirable results of a good old-fashioned education …”
page 125
This had nothing to do with female sexual pleasure – as one would expect from the Ancient Greeks.
The male nervous system concentrates at the end of the penis. So “building a clitoris” isn’t an option.
In general studies have indicated the size, shape, & etc of one’s wanker (technical jargon) is a source of male anxiety corresponding to the size, shape, & etc of one’s mammalian glands is a source of female anxiety.
the perception of difference that I want to focus on, particularly as it relates to biological knowledge.
I don’t know how to talk about the second part of that but I can talk about perception of difference.
There’s a gay men’s choir that performs in this area. When I saw them, I sat with the audience at a UU church (of course) and looked at that large group of men looking back at us as they sang. I had. . .or believed I had. . .a startling frisson of realization that although any one of them might have walked down the street without my being able to identify them in any way as being gay or straight, standing all together on the choir risers, as they were, my perception was that they were different. Different from the way a choir of straight men might look; certainly different from a choir of women.
I don’t know if I was kidding myself or not. . .perhaps I was. . .but ever since then it has been impossible for me to think in terms of only two sexes. I see it as a 360 dial now. Or maybe a dial in several dimensions. And I see every person on it as somewhere along the dial, some a little more toward the extreme of femaleness, some further toward the extreme of maleness, the rest of us falling somewhere along that continuum.
My perception that we are ALL different and sexually individual–even if some of us are bunched rather similarly at spots on the dial– makes me feel as we’re even more imprisoned by roles than we know.
I can analyze it over and over and over, but part of me doesn’t “get” gender, at least not as dichotomous. That’s why when I hear people talk about “breaking down” gender I always get amused…people always react to that like it would be some kind of universal gray androgyny; I prefer to think of it as a proliferation of possibilities…
part of me doesn’t “get” gender, at least not as dichotomous.
Me, either! When I hear “gender” I think of it as a great big category like “mammal,” that encompasses all sorts of creatures. To hear it as “male” and “female” makes it sound to me like somebody trying to pin all mammals into elephants and mice.
The male-female dichotomy doesn’t agree with observable human behavior. And if you really think about it and one’s self you can begin to see a dial or a scale.
I’ve come to this conclusion before too. Just like with everything else there isn’t just black and white but many shades of gray between.
“even if some of us are bunched rather similarly at spots on the dial– makes me feel as we’re even more imprisoned by roles than we know.”
Very apt analysis!
I’ve come to this conclusion before too. Just like with everything else there isn’t just black and white but many shades of gray between.
“even if some of us are bunched rather similarly at spots on the dial– makes me feel as we’re even more imprisoned by roles than we know.”
Very apt analysis!
Jeff – Great diary! Despite being a straight white male, I find this stuff fascinating – both because it uncovers my hidden assumptions and helps me understand other things. I’m also a big anime/manga fan, and find the gender bending that goes on there to be quite entertaining and interesting. It’s more common than one might think, especially in stuff written “for girls”. A common main character type, for example, is the girl who dresses as, and acts like, a guy. Or the guy who is constantly mistaken for a girl or who must, for some reason, dress and act like a girl. The end result is usually that the character winds up understanding their Designated Romantic Partner Character better, due to a more flexible conception of gender. Which is kind of odd, given how socially conservative Japan can be.
For the making stuff accessible bit… I’m not particularly good at that myself, but I do have a bit of advice. Try to avoid jargon and produce concise, plain English explanations. I’m well aware of how painful this can be when dealing with philosophy, so don’t expect amazing success right away. If you’re finding it really difficult, consider moving “up” a level of detail/abstraction. You can always fill in the blanks later in response to questions.
I’m also finding this less difficult to wade through that I expected. There’s more links to the mind-body philosophy I’ve learned about (big mind-body problem nut) than I thought there would be. It’s interesting that another, mostly separate, branch of philosophy seems to have arrived at pretty much the same conclusion. Some of what makes us who we are is genetic/biological – like the genetically engineered fruitflies. But a lot is how culture and society and our own choices takes those “basic parameters” and shapes and molds and alters them as we grow and learn. Reactions to assorted “arousing things” are a good example of this – the reaction’s natural, but we seem to lack the usual biochemical trigger other mammals use. So instead, we develop triggers that are apparently socially defined – like bare breasts, or a muscular body – which can wind up being almost as powerful.
One thing I would be interested in (though I apologize in advance and ask for correction if I’ve misunderstood the terminology/research) is a more thorough examination of bisexuality. I remember vaguely some research that indicated that most people are bisexual to some degree or another, but would like more information about it.
others may have other suggestions, but I’d start with anything by Lorraine Hutchins.
As it turns out, I’m apparently “hopelessly heterosexual.” Or so I’ve been labelled by my lesbian friends. After my divorce, I gave serious thought to whether it might be easier to relate to women emotionally, and just couldn’t summon any desire. I actually mentioned this to my therapist, like there was something wrong with me, that I could be “so” straight. She didn’t laugh (you know, therapists aren’t supposed to do those things) but she talked about how there is a wide range in sexuality, from virtually 100 percent homosexual or heterosexual, and then the vast majority of people, who have some degree of bi-sexuality.
Which leads me to a question. I know it’s been theorized and even demonstrated that the most homophobic men are the ones who become most aroused by gay porn, thus indicating that there’s a degree of self-loathing inolved in their homosexuality. Is this “true,” do you think? Because, of course, whenever a man I know makes a homophobic remark, I immediately point this out to him…
Not “Their homosexuality,” but rather their heterosexuality which is a denial of possible homosexuality.
I’m going to start my response with a quote from George Chauncey’s Gay New York:
I think one thing to keep in mind is that heterosexuality is equally as constructed as homosexuality. I write and think a lot about the construction of the homosexual as a social type. A related phenomenon would be the construction of the heterosexual as a social type…these two categories exist in relation (and often opposition) to each other. One is defined by not being the other.
Chauncey ties part of the development of masculinity as heterosexual to the rise of the managerial/professional class. Men in this class were earning a living from “unmanly” work…they weren’t physical laborers, they were engaged in less masculine labor than their working class counterparts. Claiming an identity in opposition to the “fairies” and “queers” on the streets, displacing the accusations of femininity on others, became a way to bolster one’s manly credentials.
So, I think there’s an oppositional thing that’s constantly there. Each category is partially defined by not being the other. The denial of possible homosexuality (or, in my case, the denial of possible heterosexuality) is almost an inherent part of claiming an identity in either category…dontcha think?
Note this social construction of homosexuality is 180 degrees from the Ancient Greek construction. In that world, Thebes* in particular, male homosexuality was the province of the ruling classes where being a rentier and having a male lover was judged to be the highest form of ‘manliness.’
* Thinking of the Sacred Band.
But what about arguments that say that, for example, the fact that men were having sex with one another in the Renaissance didn’t make them homosexuals?
Is homosexual/heterosexual simply a term of identity? Is it, like race, a cultural construction rather than biological “fact?”
And, of course, back in the Renaissance, you had preachers like Bernardino da Siena who denounced “sodomites” as those who would destroy their cities. Michael Rocke’s study on this in Florence is especially interesting.
And, given the examples we are talking about, do we know of cultures (historical or otherwise) in which what we think of as “homosexuality” was the norm and heterosexuality was the “other”. Sounds like what both of you are citing comes possibly close. That the social/cultural advantages to be gained from identifying as heterosexual may have been in reaction to something. Or not?
I actually had a discussion about just this with a friend of mine who’s studying art history. She was expressing extreme frustration at the members of her discipline who persisted in claiming that (say) da Vinci was a homosexual on the most flimsy of evidence. A more sensible conclusion is that men who have sex with men – as many did during the Renaissance, thanks, I suspect, to the Greek influence – are not necessarily homosexual. Rather, homosexual implies that you are primarily attracted to your own gender. (Sex? Gender? Which is the right word to use here?)
category "bisexual", I think that you have to define homosexual as meaning primarily and preferentially, if not exclusively, attracted to those of the same gender. Similarly for heterosexual.
Of couse, as soon as you draw a neat, tidy, convenient (or at least workable) line around things, someone comes along and screws it up.
A fellow I got to know in a men’s group arrived and put forward the fact that he was gay from the start. He’d recently come out of a monogamous, 17 year relationship that had foundered on his partner’s drug problems…. After he started to really heal, he started to date. We’d hear a little about this, and his frustration at not finding anyone who was imaginably anything more than just a fun date….
Then he arrived one week, aglow, and let us know he’d found someone… and things seemed potentially serious. He was a mite flustered, however, because his new interest was female….
Now, it was kind of amusing listening to him ove the next couple months wrestling with the mysteries of dealing with a woman, rather than a man. It was also pretty damned enlightening for him, and the rest of us.
Was he gay or bi? He’d been exclusively attracted to men since his teens.
Damned pigeonholes…
Well? Do you have your answer yet?
Because he proceeded to have that relationship end. Then dated a little more (I was hit and miss by this time in the group, and don’t know whether these individuals were male or female), and fell off the planet. I ran into him in a Trader Joe’s months and months later and he dragged me up the aisle to introduce me to his fiancee… a delightful woman.
I don’t have an answer. Not anymore. Love the guy, but he just screwed up my tidy lines something awful.
My guess? He was probably 40/60 or 30/70 or so oriented towards men. Enough so that it was his “primary” interest, but not enough to preclude attraction to women, both biologically and by gender.
argument.
I’m just burdened by knowing what he described about himself–and his experience.
Clearly he’s not 0/100. But I’d have to say that given what I recall of his discussions about growing up, school… etc… I’d have to guess at more like 15/85. Maybe 20/80. Clearly he wasn’t precluded from attraction to women. But he’d never found any of them attractive before, personally.
I know a number of people who identify as bi, who either have no preference, or have a lean, but not enough of one that they’re unaware of being bi. This guy didn’t seem that way at all.
But who knows? My point was simply that the neat boundaries are… permeable over time.
that those men weren’t “homosexuals,” depending on how you define homosexual (of course). There are times, when writing about such issues, where I’ll use the term “homosexual” simply to denote “people who engage in sexual activity with members of the same sex” (and then I get into footnotes about assumptions about the number of sexes…)
Identity is part of it, but I’d go more with social organization–it has to do with which lines are used to mark categories.
For instance, in the Greek example, it wasn’t the sex of the person that mattered, it was their status. Higher status folks could fuck, but were deviant if they got fucked by someone of a lower status. Homosexual (adjective) activity was institutionalized, but in a way we would definitely not call “gay.” Fucking was explicitly about power.
There was no homosexuality as culturally recognized phenomenon, though. So, I wouldn’t say it was homosexuality as the norm and hetero as other, as those categories had no meaning. Same-sex behavior was incorporated as part of a status system. The sex of the partner didn’t matter, the relative social location and sexual activity did.
Both of you are confirming what I thought: referring to Leonardo as ‘gay” because he had sex with other men is misleading because (oh gosh. Was it Foucault?) who argued that you can’t even use the term “homosexual” until late 19th century.
There’s some fascinating stuff in the letters that Machiavelli wrote to his best friend. My diss advisor, John Najemy, wrote a book about it, and while Machiavelli’s friend mostly slept with men, and one could read homo-erotics into the friendship, the two of them just didn’t think in those categories.
And in terms of lesbians, there’s the book about the nun, Immodest Acts, that wants to argue that the nun was a lesbian, but in the sixteenth century, does the category even exist?
So, it’s another one of those epistemological questions. If the category doesn’t exist, can you “think” it?
If the category doesn’t exist, can you “think” it?
Wittgenstein would say no, I would say yes.
One can logically deduce categories. That is the whole purpose of syllogistic logic. Once one deduces it one can know and therefore think it.
and you can’t “think” it, how does it come into being?
But, yeah, these questions center on epistemology.
A question that rises for me about all this centers around the construction of desire. I mean, I know that my desires are shaped by the culture in which I’ve lived. I think that growing up in Minnesota might have something to do with my fondness for tall, Northern-European looking men. Even with my ability to dig into these epistemological questions and historical meanings, one of the things I don’t think I’ll ever quite “get” is how those desires might have been differently experienced, differently felt. You know that feeling you get, that initial burst of butterflies in the stomach, a certain tingling, when things pop into your head? What made those things happen? In some ways, that’s what I wish I could get my head around.
I think the process is called ‘sexual impression’ and happens around the age of 13 (?) It’s an environmental thing as the people you see around you are the stimuli of sexual fascination & interest.
That would make sense to me…a tall Dutch, German, or Scandinavian man…sounds like Minnesota….sounds like a good time, too 🙂
I wouldn’t worry too much.
It’s not kinky unless you wrap “it” in lefse and spread the ligonberries.
🙂
lutefisk? I’m outa there
you can’t think it, not with any fairness or respect for the historical context. If “homosexuality” doesn’t exist as a political, social category until the 19th century, then I think a book that argues that Machiavelli was “gay” is pretty suspect. Gay studies has emerged so rapidly and powerfully that I trust it is past the need to “discover” the universality of gay men everywhere and everytime. Otherwise how would that be any different from the equally suspect move of assuming that all women throughout history have thought and acted like 20th-century Western middle-class feminists?
Jumping to MAJeff’s question (“if you can’t think it, how does it come into being?”), I guess I’m thinking about a different process of thinking altogether. I’m talking about the act of scholarship working on a past time or a distant place, and the epistemological sloppiness of applying here-and-now categories to then-and-there events. New categories and identities come into being in the process of historical change, as power structures shift and seek new stabilities in the eternal flux of the human condition. I suspect we borrow and make shit up most of the time, but I wouldn’t rule out some real creativity now and again.
And I agree with all of what you said.
Interesting.
I wasn’t aware of that aspect of the timing. It looks suspiciously like that might be entangled in the curious anti-sexual obsession that foisted radical circumcision onto Americans (in particular).
It’s a bizarre custom, particularly when you consider that it was sold as a panacea for interest (too much) in sex… and then has been sold as a panacea for everything else imaginable since.
All part of controlling sexuality… at least initially. And definitely about defining class.
I don’t want to morph this discussion so I’m merely going to observe:
There is a hidden assumption in your statement “… the most homophobic men are the ones who become most aroused by gay porn, thus indicating that there’s a degree of self-loathing involved in their homosexuality.”
No, it’s fine. I misspoke, or mistyped. Which I’m finding kind of interesting.
Let me re-state this. Men who make homophobic comments, in studies are aroused when shown images of male on male sex.
Let’s leave out porn for the moment.
I think I was thinking of Roy Cohn when I wrote “homosexual self-loathing.” Brain fart. I’m prone to those this late at night, when it’s 94 fucking degrees outside and I have a migraine. My apologies.
get the hell off this machine and get to a dark, quiet room. This cannot be helping.
Then again, when I get them, they’re the kind that sit behind my eyes and make me want to pull my eyes out…sitting in front a a computer screen would be the last thing I’d be doing….
Go take care of yourself. (Geez…not to be patronizing or anything…sorry, but I mean it…take care of yourself)
I just took some meds that will probably make me sleepy soon, so I will take your advice. But not yet. Since I’m wired over the house and it’s so frickin’ hot, I’m not going to be sleeping anyway, so I might as well torture the rest of you by staying right here.
Thanks Daddy Jeff. 🙂 And yes, someone is attempting to remove my right eye with an icepick, which is better than the headaches where it feels like a grapefruit spoon.
I’ll be on your doorstep with chicken soup….
I feel lucky. My mother gets them on a weekly or biweekly basis (I think hers are allergy related). I haven’t had one in a couple years. The worst one was in the Metrodome at the NCAA basketball tournament. Pure hell.
I hope you feel better soon.
My doctor suggested that my migraines, which have sprung up in the past year or so, maybe something she insists on labeling “perimenopause.” I shrieked. I’m 42.
It’s too hot for chicken soup, but a foot rub would help. 🙂
No matter how much I might want to make another person feel good, feet are off limits. I just hate ’em. No foot fetishist here…feet totally skeeve me out.
How ’bout a chocolate mousse pie instead?
I get them–or rather, everything except the actual pain. Lights, distortions, mushy brains and feeling like crap later.
I gratefully consider myself lucky. I’ve seen my brother crawling because he couldn’t walk…
and, ([i]fuck![/i]) I’ve seen my son in the midst of his first (and I believe, so far, only real) migraine. Which left him puking….
I’d offer to help with feet–not that feet do anything for me, but my wife’s addiction to foot rubs has me well broken in. However, I don’t think I could arrive in anything like a timely manner.
No apology is needed. What on earth gave you the idea one was needed?
We’re having a discussion where we are sharing information and learning. You mis-typed. No biggie. I’m sure I’ll make a mistake, you’ll point it out to me, I’ll correct it, and we’ll go on.
That’s how we do it, here.
I think some of us have gotten a little gun-shy. I’ll not worry about it. Thanks.
I suspect that that’s at least some of it when it comes to homophobes. “Right-wing culture” generally defines homosexual impulses as sinful, and we’ve all seen how the right wing covers its tracks by pointing at the other guy and screaming about how he’s doing the very thing they’re doing, and how evil it is.
While I said I’m straight, I suspect the truth is that I’m closer to 80/20 – the point where you feel some attraction to the same sex sometimes, but nothing obviously sexual. Which is one reason I asked about that. And while I agree with Jeff that “homosexual” and “heterosexual” are societal constructs, I also think it’s possible that there are pure 100/0 individuals – those who have simply no attraction to the same sex whatsoever.
Then again, my socially defined gender is also bizarre. I read and watch stuff I like without regard for whether its “for guys” or “for girls”, I have no problem with doing housework, my perceptions of sex/love are not typical male, I’m big on math and science, I’m not exactly passive, etc.
(Also, Jeff, are you sure about that reference you gave me? A quick browse through Amazon, Google, and Wikipedia didn’t turn up anything that looked remotely related.)
Well, it looks like I spelled her first name wrong. It’s Loraine Hutchins. The book I just pulled off my lap is called “Bi Any Other Name: Bisexual People Speak Out”, edited by Loraine Hutchins and Lani Kaahumanu. It’s fairly old, but I’m pretty sure she’s done other work…long time activist, and and academic (I see her post sometimes on the Queer Theory listserv).
Thanks, I’ll give that a look.
I’ll happily second MAJeff’s recommendation of “Bi Any Other Name” (and Loraine Hutchins in general). It’s somewhat dated but still plenty relevant.
Another great resource is the Bisexual Resource Center, which has lots of information and links to other resources, including a big online store of bi-related books and etc. I note in particular that there’s a book out called “Getting Bi: Voices of Bisexuals Around The World”. I haven’t read it but I’ll still recommend it simply on the basis of the editor, Robyn Ochs. If she put it together, it’s probably great.
As mentioned in my Welcome Wagon post, I identify as — among other labels — a “gender-vague bi male”, and no doubt that’ll come up again in these discussions. (FWIW, I’m certainly willing to answer any questions people might have about that.)
Maybe talk to Jeff about elaborating on that in a diary in this series?
Maybe. I dunno if it’s diary-worthy or if I could come up with sufficient coherent things to say. Not that the latter has ever stopped me in the past, on that subject or others …
But thanks for the expression of interest.
is a defining quality of any gender identity in such a rigidly bifurcated system as our current one?
Women and men alike are encouraged to be ever-vigilant about any creeping loss of their gender identification. I think it is closely tied with the economic system and the degree to which images (especially media/adverts, all airbrushed and scripted) become more important than experiences (which are always messy and imperfect) — it is said that you can sell women anything if you succeed in making them feel insecure. And you, Lorraine, have written more than I can begin to summarize about the crisis in American masculinity, that sense that men are losing their grip on what real manhood means, looks like, does, believes.
What I’m trying to say is that insecurity in gender identity isn’t limited to closeted, bigoted, gay homophobes. Insecurity is the name of the game, and is a key ingredient in keeping everyone off balance and in line, in a political sense.
And now I’m really starting to ramble, but this is making me remember Star Wars III, which I saw this week, and how disgusted I was with the whole “dying in childbirth” plotline, from a gender analysis POV. OK, so George Lucas is no gender theorist, but cultural critique can use the Star Wars universe to make points, right? And my point (and I don’t want to give spoilers here, for those who haven’t seen the film yet) is that so much scripted suffering could be avoided (not to mention wooden, predictable movies) if we weren’t locked into playing out the assigned gender roles (passive female, controlling-and-in-control male).
I agree. I think that gender roles and our understanding of where we fit in that spectrum are in flux. Because somehow gender is sometimes thought to be synonymous with women, for a long time, there was no real discussion of how masculinity is constructed and understood. It seems to me (as you’ve said) we’re facing major big-time masculinity crises in our culture right now. And I wonder, how much of that crisis got played out on Kos the past few days? You know, the men who were so vicious and vehement about women may have in fact been reacting to their own sense of loss of power, which has been traditionally associated as male privilege. Just thinking out loud as the migraine meds kick in and I begin to float away….
and I hope you soon feel much better.
If male is normative (however defined) then it doesn’t have to be taught – it becomes the ontological standard from which all is else judged. By (invalid) reasoning ‘gender,’ (Read: women) then becomes a dis-valued ‘other.’ And this feeds into …
I agree we are facing a “big time masculinity crisis.” Sons used to be able to be socialized through interaction, instruction, and, frankly, control of older men. They learned to be responsible men by observation and social control. Boys don’t interact with men today. Most men don’t have the freaking time due to the pressures of wage earning. (I’m refering to responsible fathers not some asswipe that dumped his sperm somewhere.) And if they do have the time we lack the social and cultural structures to give any interaction deep meaning; Boy Scouts is not the same as a Coming of Age Ritual.
So where do boys learn? From TV (ick), films (barf), and the other forms of mass media (gag) whose intent is not maturation but monetary benefits. And their peers (Blind leading the blind & etc.) of course.
The problem is not that boys aren’t learning to be men. The problem is boys are learning to be dysfunctional men. From popular culture they learn violence is morally acceptable (if you’re a good guy), women are sex-toys and not to be taken seriously, and on and on and on and on.
And cycle back to our cultural presupposition that male is normative and women are The Other and the feedback loop is complete.
Now that’s an angle I hadn’t thought of before, and I wish I had when I was writing my Free Culture diary. It certainly explains why the content corporations are in bed with the right-wing. After all, gender insecurity makes people easier to market to, and right-wing culture emphasizes issues of gender insecurity…
Is humour okay? Because I’ve been dying to publish these song lyrics to a song called “Penis Envy” and I just don’t want anyone thinking I’m not being serious when we’re talking about pee-pees and wankers.
I think you already know the answer if it’s up to me…after all, I did write, “theory can be fun…and funny! Theory time is play time for me anyway, and I love to laugh…who knows, we might have to add the lyrics to “Detachable Penis.”
Okay. A word of explanation. Uncle Bonsai is two women and one man, all Bennington grads, who played the Seattle circuit years ago. Very clever and very funny. This was one of my favourite songs, written by the two women in response to Freud:
Penis Envy
If I had a penis
I’d wear it outside
In cafes and car lots
With pomp and with pride
If I had a penis
I’d pamper it proper
I’d stay in the tub
And use me as a stopper
If I had a penis
I’d take it to parties
Stretch it and stroke it
And shove it at smarties
I’d take it to pet shows
And teach it to stay
I’d stuff it in turkeys
On Thanksgiving Day
I’d rival my buddies
In sports cars and stick shifts
I’d shower my spire
With girlies and gifts
I’d peek around corners
I’d aim at my toilet
I’d poke it at foreigners
I’d soap it and oil it
If I had a penis
I’d run to my mother
Comb out the hair
And compare it to brother
I’d lance her, I’d knight her
My hands would indulge
Pants would seem tighter
And buckle and bulge
A penis to plunder
A penis to push
‘Cause one in the hand
Is worth one in the bush
A penis to love me
A penis to share
To pick up and play with
When nobody’s there
I’d sit like a boy
I’d straddle the chair
I’d play with my fly
Albeit with care
I’d dip it in chocolate
I’d stick it in sockets
I’d stroll to the movies
With hands deep in pockets
I’d stick in vacuums
On vacant verandahs
Gas guzzling Volvos
And poodles and pandas
In puddles and drainpipes
In doggies and ditches
Pool halls and potholes
And bottles and bitches
Zucchinis and zebras
Tomatoes, tomatoes
In pineapples, pumpkins
And gulches and grottos
In melons and marshmallows
Gloves and gorillas
Slurpies and slippers
Chinooks and chinchillas
A penis to plunder
A penis to push
‘Cause one in the hand
Is worth one in the bush
A penis to love me
A penis to share
To pick up and play with
When nobody’s there
If I had a penis
I’d climb every mountain
I’d force it on females
I’d pee like a fountain
If I had a penis
I’d still be a girl
But I’d make much more money
And conquer the world.
This was one of those songs that came out in the early 90s. Never heard of the band before or since, but the song tickled me. It’s pretty much a spoken word song.
Detachable Penis
by King Missile
I woke up this morning with a bad hangover
And my penis was missing again.
This happens all the time.
It’s detachable.
[background singing begins: “detachable penis” over and over]
This comes in handy a lot of the time.
I can leave it home, when I think it’s gonna get me in trouble,
or I can rent it out, when I don’t need it.
But now and then I go to a party, get drunk,
and the next morning I can’t for the life of me
remember what I did with it.
First I looked around my apartment, and I couldn’t find it.
So I called up the place where the party was,
they hadn’t seen it either.
I asked them to check the medicine cabinet
’cause for some reason I leave it there sometimes
But not this time.
So I told them if it pops up to let me know.
I called a few people who were at the party,
but they were no help either.
I was starting to get desperate.
I really don’t like being without my penis for too long.
It makes me feel like less of a man,
and I really hate having to sit down every time I take a leak.
After a few hours of searching the house,
and calling everyone I could think of,
I was starting to get very depressed,
so I went to the Kiev, and ate breakfast.
Then, as I walked down Second Avenue towards St. Mark’s Place,
where all those people sell used books and other junk on the street,
I saw my penis lying on a blanket
next to a broken toaster oven.
Some guy was selling it.
I had to buy it off him.
He wanted twenty-two bucks, but I talked him down to seventeen.
I took it home, washed it off,
and put it back on. I was happy again. Complete.
People sometimes tell me I should get it permanently attached,
but I don’t know.
Even though sometimes it’s a pain in the ass,
I like having a detachable penis.
[background voices continue to sing “detachable penis” for a while, then out]
Okay, another one. I can’t remember the female artist, but here’s the chorus:
“I spent my last ten dollars
on birth control and beer
My life was so much simpler when
I was sober and queer.
But the love of a big, hairy man
has turned my head, I fear
And made me spend my last ten bucks
on birth control and beer.”
I used to have that song…can’t remember where it is. I know it’s not Phranc who sang it (well, I think it’s not). that brings back some great memories…
That’s IT! Thank you. That would have driven me crazy.
Wow, blast from the past. I used to have a couple of their albums, given me by a guy I dated briefly in grad school. I remember these gorgeous high voices and drop-dead funny lyrics. And one powerful song about a father dying. I’ll have to look through my box of ancient cassette tapes now.
check this out:
Uncle Bonsai
"My Father’s House".
Yeah.
It’s pretty obscure, but I can play it on the guitar, babe. Recorded by Uncle Bonsai, I believe, but it actually originated in an off-broadway show. I used to know the name of the woman who wrote it. A friend of mine who worked in Broadway theater knew her. It’ll come to me.
We’ve got a CD here somewhere…
I remember just laughing…
Yes, humor please!
On a completely different angle, I sure like the term “phallus” better than “penis”. Sounds more manly, more phallic. Bigger, harder, (I will stop now).
That’s the famous “story” about Freud and his daughter, right?
Supposedly, she said to old Sigmund, “Daddy, what’s a phallus?”
And being the good scientist, he supposedly unbuttoned his pants and showed her.
To which, she supposedly responded, “Oh, I see. It’s like a penis, only smaller.”
Wouldn’t that make quite the action flick, eh? Seriously, though … my gender theory is about a decade rusty, but isn’t “phallus” more the symbol or sign of masculine virility, as compared to “penis,” the actual concrete body part? I’m vaguely grasping at forgotten straws of French poststructuralist feminism here, Irigaray and Cixous and whatnot.
In which case, we could have theoretical, abstract conversation about the power of the phallus in societal constructions of gender or the role of the phallus in representations of war. But we wouldn’t use the term phallus when discussing penis size in intersexed babies.
Unless it just makes men feel better to call penises phalluses, in which case I don’t want to be insensitive! Clue me in here if I’m heading in the wrong direction.
Or, in Lacanian terms, the phallus is the entry into language, as the (oh shit help me I can’t quite remember this) as the Oedipal stage is not about the real fear of having one’s penis cut off, but rather, the symbolic substitution for what the Oedipal stage entails. Or something like that.
All I ever wanted to know is why the phallus got to be the universal signifier? Why couldn’t it be the vagina? Oh. dumb me. ‘Coz Lacan had had a phallus.
I had kind of been wondering how long it would take Oedipus to show up here… Care to attempt to explain in more depth? As I thought I knew what the whole Oedipus thing was about, but I’m lost here.
from
here
Did you get that? Even though Lacan calls it a PHALLUS, it’s not a PENIS. So why not call it a cucumber? Or a pumpernickel bagel?
Search me. Freud and Freud-derived stuff (as this seems to be?) drives me loopy anyway.
Though I must say, “pumpernickel bagel” deserves to be entered into the realm of philosophical or psychological jargon somewhere. Just because I find the idea of scholarly old men writing treatises about the meaning of the “pumpernickel bagel” to be inexplicably amusing.
Didn’t Carnap write a paper The Elimination of Metaphysics Through the Logical Analysis of Language, Psychology, and Pumpernickel Bagels?
And I’m absolutely sure Wittgenstein wrote a book entitled _ Tractus Logico-Pumpernikelus Bagelicum_.
(Addenum) Though it sounds like what he’s using it to refer to is the imposition of a sense of limits (knowledge that there are things we cannot achieve) through the development of language. Which has absolutely no linguistic relevance to the word “phallus” whatsoever. I think you’re right, he’s being totally arbitrary.
on top of being obtuse in the midst of pea soup fog.
Geez, I’m used to extracting meaning from gobbledegook, but….
It is kind of interesting, because one of the more recent (and interesting and heavily debated) results of both mind-body philosophy and neurological science is the suggestion that language is responsible for consciousness. Not directly, in that you can apparently have language without consciousness, but indirectly, in that increased reliance on language as humans began interacting more and more necessitated the development of consciousness. One theory, whose quality I am not qualified to judge, claimed that early human civilizations pre-dated consciousness! I found that result really interesting. This also seems to work with neurological development theories which, if I’m up-to-date (and I may well not be!), claim that babies develop “proper” consciousness somewhere between age 2 and 4. When they really start using language to interact.
And what is consciousness but the division of things into “me” and “everything else”, which is the basis of all limits?
deep, murky waters there.
With all respect, I’m going to reject accepting your assumption. "What is consciousness?" is one of <I>those</I> questions. Besides, my experience suggests that this looks suspiciously like another of those ill-fated attempts to define human beings (or in this case, modern human beings) as distinct and different from all other creatures. <i>Tool User, Language User…</I> the wrecks of those tall sailed vessels all lie on the reefs out there…
Perhaps I’ll bite on <I>Homo Pigeonholeus</I>, the hominid with the obsessive need to categorize….
Slightly more seriously, when I watch other creatures, I see behavior that appears to only make sense if they’re conscious, too. Whatever "concious" means. I guess I’m using it as <I>self</I>-aware. And if you try very hard to make me define self, I may be forced to threaten you with this big stick….
There’s a fascinating set of propositions buried in what you’ve written.
My own sense is that language is communication, ornamented and refined. Simple… er, more simple… creatures communicate. Bees can give directions–and more to the point, they can follow them successfully. Other animals communicate intraspecies and I’ve read stuff which discusses successful and repeated interspecies communication. Simple communication, mostly, but still….
It’s clear that some of the other apes can communicate in Sign (lacking the physical ability to speak a human language). At least one has been observed teaching Sign to another. And there’s plenty of evidence that indicates significant communication among chimps in the wild, and among dolphins, too.
All that said, there is something… watching children identify that "they" are attached to that body part… and recognizing that that other person really isn’t part of one’s self indicates something. I just don’t see the plausibility of projecting lack of consciousness onto early civilizations, given what I see as evidence of consciousness before that (tracking lunar cycles waaay back in the neo… or paleo?… lithic, for example), not to mention the indications of consciousness in non-human species.
Now, the idea that language may provide the tools (and impetus) for another step in the refinement of what consciousness is… maybe.
An interesting point is that children younger than the proposed age of "proper" consciousness (whatever that means…) not only do use spoken language, but they’re limited in their ability by physical limitations; the laryngx shifts…. On top of that, they’re able to learn to Sign, pretty effectively–and far more articulately–well before they can speak. The limitation is developmental… and it looks like some of the limitation on Sign at early ages may be motor control.
I’ll admit that the idea that you can have "language without consciousness" boggles my mind.
So perhaps I’ve just missed the boat. But as I said, it all looks suspiciously like one of those efforts to define modern–and more mature–humans as being the only truly conscious creature. I see a lot of dark, nasty stuff down that tunnel that reeks of things like Social Darwinism.
Well, there is something that’s different about us, as we’ve constructed much more complex things than any other species that I’m aware of. I don’t think that can be meaningfully questioned. The question is what it is that makes us different – is it qualitative, or merely quantitative? One viewpoint is that “consciousness” is that difference, and that it is a qualitative one. In this case, consciousness is usually defined as both the awareness of self and, possibly as importantly, the ability to articulate that awareness of self. Another is what you articulate – that there really is no difference, and that we simply have quantitatively more developed brains/minds/whatever than “animals”.
The research I heard being discussed – which seems to have originated from Julian Jaynes, and now I’m actually going to have to track down that book and give it a read to evaluate his arguments for myself – claimed that “non-conscious” creatures were still capable of very complicated behaviours. They simply lacked the same intense awareness of “self” that we take for granted. So just being able to track lunar cycles, or write mythology, isn’t necessarily evidence of consciousness – what it does seem, to me, to be is evidence of more sophisticated development of memory and methods of describing the outside world.
“concrete body parts” making their “entry into language” would be making me hot right now if I were into guys 🙂
As far as I know, Lacan interpreted childhood through mythology, not hands-on experience with infants. Male theorists have not been mothers, and since historically, men have not minded the children, this has undoubtedly had a profound affect on theories of the burgeoning ego, identity, etc.
has to have something to do with reality? That maybe, for example, the “whole language” school of learning to read isn’t perfect simply because it sounds cool?
Damn, you’re no fun at all 🙂
I am so much fun that if the Republicans found out about me they’d be trying to amend the Constitution to make me illegal. 😉 I’m just reality-based, more or less, and pretty damn demanding and critical about theory.
That is why there can be something like the “phallic mother” that psychoanalytic theory talks about. A quote taken at random from Kristeva: “Maintained in his function of ideal father or imaginary father, the depressive’s father is deprived of phallic power,now attributed to the mother.” Don’t ask me to explain it. I find Kristeva very hard to understand. My gloss: the phallus is a psychological construction related to social power.
since the penis and the clitoris both develop from the same mass of cells (it starts as a clitoris, but the y-chromosome cause certain hormones to take charge and turn it into a penis). When discussing intersexed genitalia, phallus is generally used to describe that organ–sometimes it’s difficult to tell if it’s a tiny penis or an enlarged clitoris.
Since the phallus is also all about its own loss, and intersexed individuals born into a rigid binary gender system have always already lost something key to their identity.
to give the impression that all intersexed people undergo genital surgery. Intersex is itself a category that covers a wide variety of conditions, some hormonal, some genital, some genetic…Not everybody gets their wee-wee chopped off…I had a friend with Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia, which is classified as an intersexed condition.
You said wee wee. That’s what I called it when my daughters were little kids. SO funny how we have all these names for our genitals. And yet, we don’t have that many names for our foreheads…
foreheads aren’t nearly as much fun to play with 🙂
Have you read Kaja Silverman’s Male Subjectivity at the Margins? I read it years ago, can’t remember a damn thing, and yet think it’s relevant somehow.
No, I haven’t…thanks. I’m teaching gender this fall, so always looking for good stuff. Now, if I could just find a way to use an out-of-print book….
someone feeling the need to conjure up a whole ‘nother gender…
there’s NOTHING so much fun to play with as foreheads. Or heck, just heads in general.
And if pressed, I’ll argue that playing with anything else is really–demonstrably–nothing more than playing with heads at some remove….
Although I am admittedly talking about things I know next to nothing about — 1.7% of births are intersexed? Had no clue it was so common!! — when I wrote my comment about loss and the phallus I was thinking more in terms of existential loss, the denial of a secure, naturalized gender identity if you are born with physical “fuzziness” into a gender system that demands/assumes perfect either/or mapping of the societal onto the physical.
If “normal” men and women are encouraged to feel eternally insecure in their gender identification (see on of my comments upthread), then how many steps back from the starting line does an intersexed individual begin, regardless of how “successfully” treatments reshape the body into a “normal” one?
since the penis and the clitoris both develop from the same mass of cells (it starts as a clitoris, but the y-chromosome cause certain hormones to take charge and turn it into a penis).
I thought that theory had been left behind in favor of the notion that fetal development begins with the tissue as pure potentiate? There’s not this passive female tissue that then gets acted upon and ‘turned male’, but rather the X associated hormones are just as active as the Y associated, and before the sex development switch flips, the fetus is considered to be neither/both or simply not-yet-sexed? Didn’t Fausto-Sterling write about this? Maybe not. It’s been a while since I did any reading in this area.
I’m not sure…I’d have to go look at all of it again…I’m not saying passive and turned, but a process interrupted by another process, at least that was my understanding (I recall it from reading the book Genome, but that was a few years ago as well.)
Here’s a link to a discussion of the general issue on WMST-L, a scholarly mailing list for women’s studies. Of particular interest are the comments toward the end of the thread from Suzanne E. Franks, PhD.
I wonder if there’s anything new about this…
…maybe I’ll just stiick with “something happens” from now on 🙂
My recollection (referencing "Brain Sex" again) is that every fetus — regardless of Y chromosome — is physiotypically female. And even that’s probably overstating it, since there’s developmental stuff still to go. Call it protofemale.
… until the ‘hormone washes’ begin. Depending on what they are, whether they’re what they’re supposed to be (disease, genetics and such can play hob…), they define gender brain wiring, orientation and physiological sex. And probably more. Memory seems to suggest that there are a few more minor hormonal washes in the mix.
Essentially we are hormonally sculpted.
But everything I recall seems to suggest that the hormonal wash causes the male fetus to morph from female to male. In fact, that’s got to be the case, because I recall a friend who taught at a med school taking great delight describing various unusual conditions and disorders to torment a mutual friend who was susceptible to squick. One of them being somewhat common on one Caribbean island.
Those who have it lack the enzyme that alters testosterone to dihydro-testosterone, which is more potently effective…. As a result, male infants who have this mutation are born physically female. The disorder is rarely identified at the time, and the little girl is raised…
until puberty kicks in.
At which point there’s so much testosterone in the system that dihydro or not, the kid undergoes the transition to male.
Damned if I can recall the name of the condition though, and my effort to google for it is failing dismally.
I can’t really tell from your description, but are you talking about Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome? Probably not, because I think with AIS there’s no impaired conversion of testosterone to DHT. Hm. Maybe you’re talking about 5-alpha-reductase deficiency syndrome? Eh, well, there’s a whole list of conditions to investigate further at the ISNA if you want to try to dig it up.
Anyway, as far as terminology and fetal sex goes, since I think the evidence thus far defies a hard-lined binary categorical structure for sex, and since, as you note, hormones are so influential in the development of sex, I think it’s a mistake to get into calling a fetus ‘protofemale’ or ‘protomale’ at such an early stage of development. Until we have more data about development and specific triggers, I think I’ll stick with ‘not-yet-sexed’.
Darned if I know. That’s what I get for remembering something that was told to me… oh… over 12 years ago. Maybe 15. If she even said what it was called.
And I think you’re right. Not yet sexed. Potentially a sexed human.