I missed out on the whole Gilligan’s Island pie fight advertisement controversy over at Daily Kos last week because I was working a lot. I was dumbfounded to return to blogging and find Daily Kos in such turmoil and hundreds of new refugees hanging around at the “frog pond”, both of which I post at… I guess, overall, that I am mostly saddened at the resultant divisions in what is an incredible online community.
Well, like a moth to a flame, I find that I just can’t resist an attempt at healing through humor… knowing full well that there are tempers still flaring about this “Gender Bender”, I’d like to submit a peace offering to everybody… please just take it in the light hearted vein in which it is intended… submitted for your approval or disapproval is a new ad that Kos could run to make amends… click through if you dare…
I’ll be taking a shower about now… You wouldn’t believe the filthy places on the internet that I had to muck through to put this one together…
really is, and see if he frontpages it at DKos…
I’m curious to know why you have decided this is some kind of metric for ‘what kind of guy Markos really is’?
This is just my opinion, but I value a person that is able to not take themselves too seriously… laugh at themselves with others when they have made a mistake, or even if maybe they have made none… IMHO a self-effacing nature is a key to true leadership
I wasn’t there for the majority of the gender bender, so I honestly have no right to comment about a lot of it, but I did take the time to try to read through and understand what happened and understand where all the hurt feelings were coming from…
Not to belittle any individual feelings or interests, but it seemed to me the whole thing boiled down to a real lack of civility and an unwillingness to listen patiently and understand someone else position on the part of the community…
I guess I fantasized that this Ad would offer Kos an opportunity to step up and have a laugh along with everyone else…
We already have a President that makes no mistakes and would never admit to them anyway… much less be a real leader and laugh about it… I just don’t want either of these communities and their leaders to adopt GWB as a role model in this regard… my $.02 : )
kos hasn’t deleted your diary. Why the emphasis on ‘front page’? That is my question, and maybe that is the heart of the controversy because his original front page comment was about diary topics.
Is this making sense?
Recommended over at kos, but not here. i don’t think we need to bring this over here anymore.
I guess I have a different take, Jerome. I think it’s very lighthearted and very well intentioned.
Don’t worry about it.. Like I wrote, I recommended it at dKos because it is indeed fun.
Understood. I’m just of the opinion that it’s a good time to move on – and Bood/Dood always provides an outlet to do so – while presenting very clear disclaimers in the title of his diary.
On a completely different note, I sincerely hope that your son – and your whole family – is doing well.
Peace and blessings.
Don’t forget to give a very small attribute…
things change dramatically when certain attributes
and lack thereof are threatened to be revealed
by guys claiming those “feminists” are being ridiculous
and the pie is “sexuality” and so on.
Not only is it a character attack, it’s one of a very juvenile nature. This kind of locker room taunting falls into the same genre of the frat boy antics that drove a lot of people from Kos over to here. And don’t even try to tell me it’s okay because some idiot at Kos did it first, two wrongs don’t make a right.
This kind of crudity is either inappropriate or it isn’t. The gender of the target is irrelevant to it’s appropriateness.
He would be one and the same….and Goldfish, I don’t know you, but do you say differnt things here and there or is there another Goldfish?
Um.. I’m very confused as to what your point is. I get the Dood = Bood connection. My comment was directed to Robert Oak, not Dood.
And so far as I know, there is only one Goldfish. Again I’m not sure what your point is.
You said:
And don’t even try to tell me it’s okay because some idiot at Kos did it first so I thought you might not, not trying to insult you, just inform. Apologies…
The other half was also asking a simple question (I should have made it clearer):
Are you the same Goldfish that posts at dKos?
The line in my comment “don’t even try to tell me it’s okay because some idiot at Kos did it first” wasn’t reffering to Dood/Bood. Good satire is hard to come by. What I was reffering to were the so-called “fart boys” over at Kos who have been cited by many of the women who left there as one of the causes for the leaving Kos.
My point was that because there’s a cadare of people who at Kos who run around engaging in locker room antics, it doesn’t justify making similer sorts of comments about Markos.
As for the second part of your post, I answered it in my other reply. There is only one Goldfish I am aware of in the blogsphaere, and it’s me. I am the same Goldfish as the Goldfish on Kos, and my name appears on a few other blogs and forums as well. Sorry if I didn’t also make this clearer -clarity has been kind of elusive tonight it seems.
“gender of the target is irrelevant to it’s appropriateness.”
I’m not sure this is necessarilly so. Part of what makes something like the pie-ad (and more broadly, images that some women find offensive) is not so much the exposure of the female body per se, but the privileging of the male gaze (and not only in visual terms, but also manifested in other forms, e.g., language) and a certain boorish version of male sexuality through which all other sexualities are measured (and sometimes denied or dismissed, as was seen in the accusation of “humorless sexless feminist” or something to that effect).
In other words, the gender of the target only becomes irrelevant when the social system in which these acts are performed, these images are produced is no longer one that places one position (male, in our case) as practically almost completely dominant.
Sorry for rambling. I’m not disagreeing with you that a juvenile character attack is inappropriate though.
yes it is.
and so is the original diary.
that’s the point for so many could not get what the issue
was and I wasted a lot of time trying to explain
what the issue was in comments on dailykos.
So, I can’t blame the diarist for resorting to “a picture
is worth a 1000 words” as well as one crack about using the juvenile locker room approach to deal with juveniles.
If the above user had made a comparable crack about some women he had a problem with, talking losely about her anatomy, I wonder how that comment would be received?
My guess would be that comment would now be buried in the hidden folder, rather then rated 4.00/4.
Dood – you’re the best – there’s just no one out there who gets me laughin’ like you do. The only thing you could’ve done to enhance this – and truly win all hearts and minds – would have involved the inclusion of “POTUS & Corn”.
Have a great day, and thanks for the laugh!
You’re gonna be in some really big ass trouble when this shows up on MSNBC and CNN. (hee)
Also wondering whether:
Good night!
Hey! By the way – was that bottle of ale the other morning a real picture? The combination of you and Monty Python would leave anyone guessing 😉
Yep! That was no photoshop! You can buy it in the grocery store by the pint… I suspect they released it in conjunction with Monty Python’s success on Broadway… I tried a couple of bottles and it’s nothing special… pretty forgettable…
Guiness Extra Stout for me if I’m going to have something dark!
Should have Armando’s ass in the picture also LOL!!
I spent about 1/2 hour trying to find a picture of him, but couldn’t…
Jeebus.
This seems to be the appropriate place to observe the pie fight made CNN.
MSNBC had the same story. I’m kind of glad it doesn’t make it clear that the ad in question had run on Kos, when they ran that quote. I think the more internal the pie wars stay, the better off we all are.
your dirty laundry hidden where it can grown mold.
With the way Biden’s statments about Dean have taking over the news cycle?
The issues driving this thing here have always been internal ones, e.g. that certain community members feel they have not been treated with proper respect and consideration. The fact it is an internal issue does not lessen it’s validity, or mean that we should just drop it altogether (and as much as I’d like to, there’s to much unresolved to do so).
But validity doesn’t change the fact it will be very, very bad if the MSM picks up on the depth and scope of what’s been going on here. Do you want to have a news cycle of Pie Wars? All that can do is give the MSM something else to write about so they can avoid having to actually pay attention to all the shit the GOP is pulling.
This is an internal issue, and it has to be solved internally in the Kos/Boo community. Outside scrunity will do nothing to help a final resoultion to any of the lingering issues here.
is not a community in any sense of the word, there is extensive research on this…
There are sub-communities within in it, there are friends being made and things being learned, and there are a LOT of great people posting, talking, DOING (which is my big bugaboo at this point). That being said, let me give you a few thoughts on pseudocommunity and see if it doesn’t apply aptly to both dKos and the D-party as a whole:
“The imperative of pseudocommunity is to ‘behave as if we all agree’. An interactional conginiality is maintained by a surface friendliness….”
“The imperative of pseudocommunity pivots on the supression of conflict…[that] paves the way for the illusion of consensus.
from:
Toward a Theory of Teacher Community”
Grossman, Winberg, & Woolworth (2001) p.955
I am all for the explosion of the issue outward….and “lingering” is not the word I would use for the “issues”…
I think this is sort of a side-point to what I was saying. I’m not to keen to argue the semantics of the word community; sociology has never been a field I was very fond of.
In any case, while the point you make about DKos really containing a number of different communties may have merit, outsiders are not likely to pick up on this neuance. Any news coverage of what goes on at Kos is more then likely going to treat it as one monolithic entitiy. Maybe this isn’t a very indepth approch to the subject, but since when has the MSM been big on depth?
P.S. I dig your sig line 🙂
I don’t think it is a ‘side point’ to the larger THING, but perhaps, yes, in what you were saying… I just get weary seeing this word thrown around to describe something that is isn’t. But sociology is not my field either, so we can leave that for another day.
And I certainly wasn’t trying to argue in defense of MSM either… they have about as much depth as my the waater in my dog’s bowl after an afternoon in the park in July, on any subject … as far as dKos being treated by them as “one monolithic entity”, well, yeah, but that doesn’t amke it one, does it?? And someone wanting to be in politics should get used to that in any case, yes?
Your is the first comment I’ve gotten on the sig line, btw, a little less serious than the one I have on dKos, but it fits — why do you like it, if I may ask?
I am very guilty of referring to and feeling as if DKos and Boo Tribe are like minded “Communities”… perhaps this isn’t a good choice of words… maybe this is such a new phenomenon that language hasn’t caught up… meta-community, virtual community… I don’t know…
a great word from Vonnegut for a group of people brought together by fate or some commonality of interest — but not the interests most crucial to them and their identities. . . .
Holy Moses, I wrote that line. Out of the thousands and thousands and THOUSANDS of words written on that topic… I posted once on dkos. Once! That wasn’t even the real point I was trying to make. Well, really the point was ripping someone a new orifice, but hey, it’s over.
Dang, must be a hyperslow news day.
Bood, that photo is outta control. I am so keeping my mouth shut. 🙂
that you are the mysterious “Nixie Knox”…? Oh man, there is a whole diary about you on DKos speculating as to your identity and such!
Or are you the other person they quoted? Either way, don’t sweat it… there’s not enough space on my hard drive to cache transcripts of the regretful things I’ve done in my life…
Pretty cool ten minutes of fame! ; )
Uh, yeah. I’m Nixie Knox. Or I was — I didn’t port the nic over to this site because I thought it was too twee in retrospect.
This is so random. I never would have seen the cnn story had I not been killing time in a parking lot and surfing a couple news sites on my Treo. (“Hey, there’s a pie war story on cnn, weird… huh, that line sounds really familiar… HOLY SH*T!”) I almost never look at cnn.com now because of the lack of important news stories. And they certainly stayed true to form! Heh.
My brother’s name is Peter Knox, my parents had a sense of humor too.
I just wish I hadn’t wasted my needle-in-a-haystack luck on dKos and played the lottery instead. 🙂
you know why I don’t have my picture in the ‘About’ section.
that my face was cut out of that photo and replaced with Markos’.
</delusions>
No doubt!
And you make me smile, every time, and for that, you have my undying gratitude!
One Man
With Nothing to Lose
Who Dared to Go. . .
The Full Marcos
Marcos IS the Pie!
Bood Rools.
BE THE PIE!! 😉
That’s not pie.
that I can’t click through on this one. I wanted to see exactly what Kos was going to do with that pie.
Great body double, btw.
No different than the pie ad.
I will now stipulate that this bood does abide and this is genius. The best way to get someone to think about how the other side feels about any issue is to turn things around and see if they will still argue their point or if they say well that’s different..so in that vein yeah…is Marcos going to post this on Kos do ya think? 3 guesses.
It goes for both sides though. Will both sides maintain the same stances or will they flip flop and thus prove to be nothing more than hypocrits?
Someone who changes their mind after considered thought on any subject isn’t a flip/flopper nor a hypocrite it just means that on studying or learning more on a given subject they may have realized they hadn’t thought things through enough or didn’t have enough information.
That is EXACTLY what both of these communities should be putting forward… and that in no way belittles your thoughts and feelings, Y.W.
If you try to hold the opposing views simultaneously, e.g. if someone who didn’t find the pie ad offensive took offense to this, or if someone who did find the pie add offensive didn’t.
Learning more about a subject and changing one’s mind is one thing, but what the user you were responding to seemed to be asking was if people will be consistant in their belifes, or try to have it both ways.
Yes, a consistency in beliefs. We criticize Bush for doing the “do as I say, not as I do” garbage all the darn time. Are we just as guilty of double standards?
Some of us maybe. Others may just be careless about it, not realizing they’re falling into the trap (Hell, we all fall into it at some point). I find that the likelyhood of inconsistency tends to increases in direct relation to the emotion and hyperbole attached to an issue. Given the passions that surround the pie wars and the related battles, I think you’re more likely to run into inconsistency here then on other issues.
I’ve seen quite a bit of it from a handful of the more outspoken critics of sexism on Kos, who turned around and made very sexist comments of their own (and appreaently felt morally justified in this on the grounds of some sort of moral equivalency (apparently two wrongs now make a right). Or how about the fratboy crack about Kos’s endowment up thread? If that guy had made a similar comment directed at a women, how long do you think that post would remain visible?
I think this issue has brought out the worst behavior in a lot of people, and I’m getting tired of people saying that X (X being the pie ad and behavior of some idiots, or the reaction by those Kossers who were offending by the ad depending on which side you’re on) gives them a right to do Y (Y being generic bad thing) in retaliation.
The sooner people stop acting like real or perceived wrongs give them a right to strike back in kind, the sooner we can start healing.
I’ve been looking all over for it, but I can’t find it — could you point me to it, please?
To my reply to it.
Went all the way back up the thread until I could click “Parent” no more and foind Chocalate Ink’s post, in which I could see no “fratboy” comment — but I’m trying to learn, so could you please quote it for me, so I can see? Thanks!
“Don’t forget to give a very small attribute…”
Hmmm. well, it seems that some men Robert oak, maybe, aren’t so “sensitive” about the size of their, um, attributes….
(In the spirit of “turning things around”)
But Robert can speak for himself, I speak only for me…and thanks for giving me a quote!
on this thread if you can make my argument for me. Here are the qualifications.
1 forget about this being personally offensive to Markos. He has not objected.
It is my opinion that the pie add was offensive and that this is not (forgetting personally offensive to Markos). The pie add was sexist and this is not. If you can explain my argument convincingly, kind of like a test debate where you have to argue the other side… I will give you fours on every post you made on this thread.
I don’t care about the 4’s; I like the idea of coming up with answer.
The pie ad was offensive because it was an appeal to men to drool over almost life-like blow-up sex dolls. While it might not have offended everyone at the site, it made some members of the community uncomfortable and since it served no purpose other than publicity for TBS, that discomfort should have been sufficient to get it removed.
This is not offensive because it is satire. Taking a particular viewpoint to an extreme is one of the basic methods of satire. Consider the always excellent example of Swift’s ‘Immodest Proposal’. The idea of eating children is certainly offensive but Swift’s essay is not. The reason is, of course, that we recognize the purpose of Swift’s essay and so do not condemn his subject matter. The same is true of this graphic
and also, because men do not suffer from institutionalized sexism, just like white people don’t suffer from reverse racism. The group in power can’t be victimized by false depictions. There is no societal assumption that men’s main purpose is to be sexually attractive to women and that their whole success in life is based on how they look to women.
Do we have to relive the pie fight here?
I didn’t find the pie ad offensive. I found the disrespectful comments toward those who raised concerns to be offensive. Including Markos’.
It wasn’t the ad – it was the quality (or lack there of) of the discussion.
The ad was for a stupid show and I wouldn’t have thought it well placed on a “serious” political blog – but obviously I was wrong since it got the show all kinds of “buzz” – including national mentions simply because of the DKos pie fight.
IMO,Dood/Bood’s effort here is more like an editorial cartoon, funny, thought provoking, and targeting an issue of significance to the two blogs he posted it on.
No hypocrisy here.
So, if someone took a picture of a female poster and pasted it on a near naked body (without her permission), that’s cool?
If it was part of some larger satire, and not designed to humiliate/belittle/exploit that person, I would have no problem with it, as I have no problem with Bood/Dood’s work. However, I do think the people who think Markos should post this picture to the front page as some sort of penance are of base for the reasons you imply
It’s a visual editorial on an internal issue amongst us Kos/Boo’s.
No way-no how should Markos be asked or expected to post it either “front page” or “ad banner” on his site.
But one more time — For many of us it is not the ad.
One more time. It was not the ad. It was the snarky attitude to those who did object to the ad.
If you do not find any illustrative value in the editorial humor presented by Dood/Bood; by all means take it up with him/her
I do wonder why you popped over here to continue commentary only on those few threads relating to the huge pie/ad/gender mis-communication. If that’s your focus issue you should have had ample opportunity to exercise your opinions in the numerous diaries and threads on DKos.
I’d rather debate the issues rather than personal motives behind each and every screen name.
What about those of us who didn’t much care about the ad but were driven away by the commentary?
as a woman who reduced her dKos participation not because of the pie ad (I never even clicked on the damn thing), but rather Markos’ dismissive attitude toward those who were concerned about it (as well as his comments about “single issue” voters)…
this “ad” gave me a smile. 🙂
Not necessarily – one doesn’t always know when one is the victim of cognitive dissonance.
See my comment up thread about how we’ve all fallen into that trap at some point. Some people, however, seem to do it more then others.
This picture shows a lot more skin then any of the pie ad banners. Markos in a tank-top and tight bulging bicycle shorts would be a better equivilent of the pie ad.
This was hands down, the best Pie Diaries to date. Gosh, it almost made me want to go back to Kos. (Well actually, I just did to see the responses there, but the diary was long gone. And, I’m really liking it here)
Brilliant and one of the best laughs I’ve had in a week! Kudos!
The Kos version of this diary is currently number three on the Recommend list. Hardly “gone.”
Oops, I stand corrected. No longer number 3, but still there. I must have missed it going to fast.
Love the comments. I’m delighted it had just as positive effect over there! Congrats Bood!
Yep, it’s still there all right. Just came from there actually after losing my temper. Some of the comments have regressed back into “Oh, those “delicate” feminists who left because of a silly ad and when will they concentrate on real political issues!”
Armando and others can talk about healing all they like but too many posters over there really want those who had real arguments against the ad to come back but shut up.
For full disclosure I’ll tell you I didn’t even notice the ads until the war started, but now I’m pissed by the overall contemptuous attitude and lack of empathy.
I didn’t and don’t care about the ads.
But I’m not a little pissed off with both sides of this thing. I’m pissed because of the people like the ones you ran into who don’t know how look more then a few feet beyond themselves. And I’m pissed off at a lot of the people who were offended by the ads, who are now taking it out on everyone, especially the male gender as a whole (see my rant about intellectual consistency up-thread) even in dairies that have nothing to do with the pie.
Basically, I’m pretty much disgusted by both sides of this thing at this point. I’ve seen an appaling lack of respect for others demonstrated by people on both sides of the issue, and I’ve had enough of it.
Well, I live by a basic principle. If someone tells me they are offended by something, I try to understand where they are coming from. I don’t immediately look for a snarky way to put them in their place, or to ostracize them.
This is the problem I have with the pie wars. People said they were hurt and others told them to shut the fuck up! How would it have hurt anyone to try and understand? To, at the very least, just hear them out?
As a woman who was deeply offended by some attitudes expressed at DKos, I am not out to get all men. In fact, quite the opposite. I have been astounded by the number of truly heartfelt, understanding and honest statements made by so many men.
I have opened this diary multiple times today, and each time I had a hearty laugh. It was perfect. As Bood/Doob said above, it was a snarky way of switching the roles and it was very well done. I had no problem with the ad, hell, I didn’t even notice it until Kos commented. I could figure out why there was this big “pie” diary, but since pie figures in Kos mythology, I didn’t even bother to look.
I have great respect for someone who can laugh at themselves. If this was my face on a model’s body with “her secret life as a sex maniac” or some such thing, I would laugh too, especially if I had said something really dumb prior. It is HUMOR. Satire has a long and healthy history in our history.
Damn, just thinking about this new ad, makes me LOL all over again!
Sounds like they still don’t get it over there. Sad.
It is entirely plausable that there is a communications breakdown where is issue at hand IS the ad and is also a historical perception of negativity. Both sides will never “get it” since they’re not only not on the same page, but reading entirely different books. (insert snarky comment of “well THOSE people are reading comic books then!”) By now no side has any moral or argumentative superiority.
I’m going to further posit that the venom of both sides is equitable; as each side sees the other as a liberal version of behaviors they revile on the Right. “Frat-boy mysogynists with Stepford appeaser servants” and “FemiNazi she-wymyn man-haters with attendent eunics” on the other. One is perpetuating the patriarchal boys club of gender oppression while the other seeks to institute a censorship war on sexist imagery and institute a matriarchy.
But, hey, I could be wrong.
I, respectfully, disagree. One side was simply dismissed over on that other site and that’s when the problem both began and continued.
Honestly, I’m not trying to be argumentative, but this is not one of those he said/ she said arguments. Women and men who had a problem with this ad, or with Ko’s response to their arguments were effectively shut out.
If you have proof that “the venom of both sides is equitable; as each side sees the other as a liberal version of behaviors they revile on the Right.” please post it, maybe I missed something I should know about. The posts I read were vehemently anti-feminist. If you read responses that were equally anti-male, I’d like to know about it.
It’s a big site. It’s an open site. The imbroglio was picked up by big media, and those who caught the story therehave passed the 24 hrs. lag to open an account.
Given the above is it reasonable to expect 0 dumb comments?
I have a gift for you since you took a trip out of the pond to the swamps for the original body pic:
I’m afraid to ask what you’re promoting in that picture. (And if it’s something I should be quite familiar with – sorry – I don’t get out much. This is pretty much it for me 😉
Wash wash wash away those sins…hand soap?
Thanks – my bifocals aren’t too effective when reading the print contained within some of these graphics.
In case you need some extra help. I’m off to light my candle for the unmentionable things done and thought last night.
Much better!
In spite of what you may or may not have done last night (requiring the aforementioned cleansing candles. . .) there’s something I’ve been meaning to say. . .
Without further ado, I’d like to honor you with a Diplomat of the Week award. While I realize you may not like the attention, (okay, maybe it was just my leg latching attention you didn’t like :^), please accept my personal round of applause, and a pat on the back. “woo hoo” “huzzah” “way to go, dude” (Trying to do it quietly, out of respect for your non-narcissism)
You’re an asset to the site, and I appreciate you.
I’ve managed to shake you from my trail. I’m really an attention whore, didn’t ya know? (yeah right)
Anywho, thanks for the compliment and moreso for the snark–it needed some attention around these waters.
My foot just fell asleep btw.
Or for that matter, an attention magnet (different meaning, I know, but, I like to pay attention to you! *grink*)
I don’t want to be accused of being a hypocrite — so I had to say something!
How’s you foot? I hate when that happens!! Last week for the first time EVER, I had my butt fall asleep on me….never again!! 😉
shake the blood back into my foot. I’ve never had my butt fall asleep though, that will be a clear sign that I’ve spent too much time mongering around. I wonder if the blogosphere is ready for another Latino running around the threads? I’ll make sure to drag along the mariachi group just to make my point that I’m here to stay. 🙂
Especailly at quinceneras (I can’t spell my native language either, please don’t flame me!) — what is that song, um, it’s really pretty and souful, I’m going to try it, if you have a drink, swallow first so that you don’t hurt your ‘puter, I am sure to mess it up hilariously….
Las Mananitas? Is that it? Or did I just write “the green boogers” or something like that??)
That’s the one! It’s also a traditional song for birthdays, sung at dawn to greet the day. I speak bad spanish fluently so there will be no flames from my direction on that one. back to reading!
Oh, hoorah, I got it right without having to look it up! There is hope for my memory yet!!
that you’d think I give a rat’s tail about your foot falling asleep? 🙂 Was that an editorial comment regarding the stimulating nature of my writing?
Get it together dude – it’s Saturday night, for gosh sakes! (You ol’ attention monger, you)
is just a foot. Wisdom for the ages 🙂
Thanks for the profound words, grasshopper!
Gotta go watch a rerun of the Practice (another exciting Saturday night in the Anomalous home 😉
Was that Gannon’s body?
Markos go to the gym. Right now!
This made me chuckle. But, like with Guckert, I’d rather let him make a fool of himself.
Or maybe stop. Everyone has hope of redemption. Even Darth Vader, and he murdered children!
Now nobody please burst my bubble and tell me that Darth Vader wasn’t real! It would spoil my whole Sith theory of the GOP.
George W. Bush, however, is merely a George Lucas creation; who else but Lucas could make someone mangle the English language that bad???
Talk about the world’s worst marketing plan to sell more tickets on political relevance.
LMAO!
I was wondering if anyone who’s attending the Democracy Fest in Austin wanted to show up in Maryann/Ginger getups and take pies to the breakfast…?
Any takers?
This sexist objectification of Markos Moulitsa caused me to laugh so hard I spit Diet Vanilla Coke through my nose. And the stuff is fantastically expensive where I live!
Oh, this is evil!
that you can experience the same taste sensation by eating vanilla wafers and drinking regular diet coke if that’s any less expensive….
a recipe.
That’s it, this thread is over. . . .