I’m not trying to be snarky, I want to answer your question, but I am still unsure as to what you are asking, so I’m trying to clarify. Thanks for bearing with me!
..not that I think i understand the question, thanks for trying DofP….here’s my answer.
Yes. Everyone should have the right to decide whether to reproduce or not. People should be able to decide whether or not to have children. In many cases, I wish children were allowed to decide whether or not to have parents too…
For the record, I had my oldest son out of wedlock (isn’t that a grand term), and have been voting since I was 18, but I am not ‘a Democrat” in the partisian sense.
I saw your response, tried to respond and my computer went down. In any case, this is such a personal issue, thank you for sharing that. I am also a single parent but I’m so crazy about my kids I wish I’d started sooner!
I am an “older” mom — I’m 39 and have a 6 and a 2 year old. I’m married now, but single momhood taught me a LOT that I wouldn’t trade for anything!
Do you mind my asking what the circumstances of your single mom-hood are? How old are your kiddos?
I really wasn’t trying to be a pain in the ass, I have just been asked this question so many times in so many different ways that I wanted to be sure of what I was being asked before responding (for the record, my response is always the same! *grin*)
Okay – now you have to admit that your comments kind of are coming across as snarky and/or demanding. Please clarify what you’re looking for? (Then again, your remarks weren’t aimed at me, so on second thought this is likely none of my business. Just kinda lonely tonight, so I thought I’d jump into a conversation.) Are you a Green Party member, and that’s your issue with Democrats? Perhaps you don’t vote (highly unlikely for someone on his site.
And as I continue typing this, something tells me that once again I jumped into an old thread, where all the above questions have been addressed, and I’m once again sitting here having a conversation with myself. (Hey Anom, how ya doing? Pretty good, thank, Anom!)
As long as I’m throwing myself out here for potential attack – or likely shaming myself – may I ask a favor of you without it being construed as offensive in any manner? (Because that’s certainly not my attention and I dearly enjoy your posts)
Is there any way for you to lower your sig line closer to the bottom of the page? Each time I read one of your comments, your sig line is pretty much in the middle of your post. . .and I end up getting confused in spite of the fact that I read it several times a day. . .and I realize this is my own personal quirk, so please ignore my comment if you’d prefer not to alter your sig for any reason whatsoever. It’s just that I’m <sniff>, such a delicate flower when it comes to the comment formatting.
And with that – I likely deserve to be flamed, but I meant no harm. Really. Good night!
don’t have to ‘admit”, but if they’re coming across as snarky and demanding to you, I’ll apologize for it, I guess…trying to clarify a question before i answer it.
Probelm with democrats, yeah, I’ve had one for a while, the same one I have with most politicians…no, I’m not a “Green” either, the incessant labeling tires me…if people ask the “what are you” question, I answer: a little ‘i’ independent…if they want to know more, i happily oblige.
As far as the sig… you’d have to ask BooMan about that, all I did was type it into the box with the obligatory tags on…don’t know why it looks that way to you!
Oh my. . .that was nothing short of very poorly presented on my part. Where to begin in identifying my thoughtless comments. Why don’t I start with the use of the words “snarky” and “demanding”. There’s certainly nothing for you to “admit”, nor should I have asked you to do so.
Then there’s your apology, which was certainly unwarranted (but it would seem you were being generously polite). I just couldn’t figure out the rationale for your questions. Keeping in mind that I mentioned how much I enjoy your posts, it would have been a bit more appropriate on my part to pose my questions in a more thoughtful manner – considering you’re not the type of poster to intentionally stir up trouble. . .
Oh yeah – then there was the comment in which I cornered you into a party label, instead of simply asking why you posed your questions. My comment was particularly hypocritical considering that I too am an independent – having worked on campaigns for a dem, a green, and a member of the MN Independence Party. Which made my inquiry “extra special ignorant” (ESI). Now that I think of it, that’s very likely the reason why I had so much personal difficulty responding to the poll myself.
And speaking of the poll, I had no option other than selecting “other” – although not explaining my reasons for doing so. I simply didn’t know where to begin. Aside from my lack of party affiliation, two of my best friends work on the executive committee of a national pro-life organization – and another very close friend is on the executive committee of a pro-rights organization. Not to mention my former sister-in-law, who was the president of a large chapter of NOW. I’ve learned quite a bit from listening to their different (passionate) positions, and I don’t have a simple response to the poll – there are far too many factors to consider.
In the future, I think it best that I listen to my heart when I find myself typing disclaimers indicating that someone’s comment is probably none of my business. But alas, I’m a tremendously fast typist, but “tremendously fast” doesn’t enter into the equation when it relates to my thought process.
I need to run – as I have to go plant dozens of flowers I purchased last night, and finish my planting before we get hit with thunderstorms.
Again – sorry for the less than thoughtful comments. I hope you have yourself a peaceful, prosperous day!
None at all — my position on “the issue”, whatever we want to call it, has very little to do with politics and everything to do with personal experiences.
I had my oldest son out of “wedlock” (such a lovely term isn’t it?) and not only out of wedlock, but out of any kind of relationship as well….but here’s the thing:
I had a choice. I made it. I am not sure how I would have reacted if I had felt that I had no choice, but I do know how I react on other circumstances when I feel trapped and it ain’t pretty. I’d say that I am even MORE pro-choice now than I was before I became pregnant….one of these days I am going to write a diary about it.
In any case, no hard feelings whatsoever, ok?? Oh, and thanks for saying that you enjoy my posts — even if my sig keeps being in an annoying place! 😉
Okay, cool – as I mentioned last night, when I get bored and lonely I just jump into any old thread no matter how old the diary, and no matter if I’m jumping into the dead center of an ongoing discussion. Oh well. Fa la!
I have a question for you, and you certainly don’t need to respond if you choose not to. I assumed (correctly or not) that you had an abortion. If so, (or even if not, for that matter) what is your opinion of women who wear T-shirts to pro-choice rallies proudly proclaiming that they had an abortion?
I realize this is an immensely sensitive subject, and I myself am a strong proponent of pro-rights (because let’s just say I could have very easily been in your shoes a few times a couple decades ago). But what I don’t understand are the T-shirts – I think it’s a very unfortunate, private matter, and I can’t comprehend announcing it to the world.
And yes, I understand there are many women out there who view it as countering a stigma, and there’s no reason they shouldn’t wear the T-shirts. I’m a strong proponent of free speech, but no matter how long I think about the subject, I still can’t understand why someone would want to advertise that they had an abortion. I personally disagree with others who view it as the equivalent to a dental procedure. I myself view it as far more emotionally traumatic to the woman involved.
Your thoughts? (I promise not to judge you either way, I’m just seeking a better understanding.)
I have never had an abortion. The choice I made was to have my son — he’s six now. Or did you mean that BEFORE you read my post, you had assumed I had an abortion? I am not angry but curious: what made you assume that?
As to why the women wear those t-shirts, they may be countering not the “stigma” as you call it, but the stereotypes of trauma and shame they are supposed to be feeling…maybe thee point that they are making is that, yes, it IS supposed to be a private matter, and that by wearing the t-shirts they are saying, if you don’t like it that we “advertise” (though I have problems with that use of the word) then why are you (meaning the people who want to take away choice) coming into our private matters in the first place??
I don’t know though, you would have to ask them why. I certainly would never presume to speak for a woman who has had an abortion, except to defend her rights, of course! 😉
For myself, I made, the AGONIZING, choice to have my baby, because, bottom line for me was that if I were to live with something the rest of my life, I thought it better to live with a child. That said, I was 32 years old. Had already earned a BA and an MA 10 years earlier and was in the process of earning my Ph.D. (still in that process…that’s another diary topic for a later day!) — I made a deal with myself when I finished my masters, that if I got pregnant from there on out, I would not have any excuse for having an abortion — I made it another 9 years! 😉
Even with all of my advantages, making the choice to have the baby was hard, having the baby even harder, and I wouldn’t make a different one even knowing what I do now about the indifference and prejudices of society to single mothers. But that was MY choice, and I would never in a million years think it was my place or the state’s or anyone else’s to make that choice for someone else. Never.
Sorry about that. As soon as I hit “post” I realized I had worded my comment in an unfortunate manner. (In retrospect, I think it was your emphasis on the word “choice”, but that’s irrelevant. I shouldn’t have presented ANY type of assumption about ANYTHING without fully understanding any given situation.)
I had only posed the question about the T-shirts because I think it had been discussed at great length on Kos, but I hadn’t been in a position to read the thread. I merely wondered if you knew the rationale from reading the comments or from speaking to other women about the subject. I certainly wasn’t asking you to be the voice of any group, and I regret that my comment came off that way – I was simply trying to engage in conversation.
I just ran spellcheck on this post, and discovered I had written 13 paragraphs filled with highly diverse experiences, examples and opinions. But then it occurred to me that the post was far, far too long and contained far too many sensitive issues of potential volatility. Given my recent track record of misunderstandings, it seemed best that I delete the post, although on the surface I didn’t see anything that might be construed as troublesome. I’m currently backed into a corner with work deadlines, and I couldn’t afford to submit any comments that might result in the need for expanded explanations later on. (That wasn’t a snide remark, I’m simply not in a position to post for awhile, and I didn’t want to leave any comments hanging out there with the inability to respond.)
Anyway – allow me to say that I commend you for everything you’ve done to provide for your child – including any sacrifices you’ve made along the way, and your efforts as a role model in continuing your advanced education, supporting a child on your own, and still making the time to be involved in politics. I have the utmost respect for your decision, and I also respect the decisions of others who chose differently.
I just need to keep reading and listening and learning, because I’ve found that sometimes I fail to see the long-term ramifications of this administration’s actions – along with all their hidden agendas. Allow a pharmacist not to fill a woman’s prescription today, and it might be Roe v Wade tomorrow. For that matter, it wouldn’t surprise me if this administration somehow deemed abortions as being an issue of national security. Because we all know they’re going to need as many children as possible to grow up to be soldiers in support of all the occupations in the Middle East.
I’ll wait for more, when you have the time, all I can say is that I HOPE you saved those 13 paragraphs so that I can have the opportunity to read them at some point! This is the kind of discussion I LOVE to have!
I look forward to talking with you more and good luck on the work deadlines…..maybe by the time you come back, I’ll have actually written something! (heh, but don’t place any bets on it, k?)
It’s all good, Anom! And thanks for the comends…life is a funny ole thing is all!
Thanks much – I had to take a little break to run around the house shutting windows after a massive hailstorm broke out, so I figured I’d check in quickly before I got back to work. (You see, that’s my REAL problem – I spend a little too much time on BT, and not enough time on client projects, then all hell breaks loose when I suddenly remember I have pending deadlines and I haven’t begun the project. But it adds quite a bit of excitement to my life.)
UH OH! TORNADO WARNINGS!!! I thought it got awfully quiet and quite a bit cooler a bit too fast. Oh well. As I’m known to say, “Fa La”. If I’m in any danger, my husband will come in from the garage and drag me away from my computer to safety. Maybe not – I see him outside staring at the sky, which must mean there’s something bad going down, because he’s a guy, and if a tornado were within a couple blocks he’d still be looking at it, thinking “WAY COOL, where’s the camera!”
I’m not exactly sure of the specific subject matter in which you’re interested, because my deleted post was quite the stream of consciousness undertaking – with a variety of different scenarios of experiences ranging from abortions that made me angry to the negative treatment toward a friend who chose to have many, many children – which made me angry. (And all other points in between – and I think I was angry about each situation ;-). So, if that’s of any interest to you – I’ll find a moment at some point, but I think we better move to the left margin before we get all squished over on the right. (And I think I better move away from the window. . .)
Hmmm. . .no more sirens but my husband disappeared. I bet he’s going out to buy me some flowers. That’s it – big ol bouquet of flowers and a nice bottle of wine for no special reason. Yeah. Right. LOL! 😉
“Talk” to you later, and have a nice evening. I have to go give infidel a quick chewing out, before I get back to work.
For a second I thought this would be a discussion of the Kama Sutra.
I think “pro-choice” is a lousy frame. I consider it pro-freedom or anti-slavery. But however it’s couched, if the Dems abandoned women’s equality I would not even know the party any more.
My sense is that the party, as it is now, cannot win a 3-legged race at the fairgrounds. The hypocrisy of Biden and Feinstein and their ilk I find especially distasteful. Until a real progressive party platform — or new progressive party, even — emerges, the Republicans will rule and continue their rape of our resources and destruction of our secular democracy. And women can expect to be restored to state-owned breeder status.
It’s very telling that for all the failings of Bush and Frist and DeLay, and their atrocious poll numbers, no Democrat stands out with any vision whatsoever. (Except maybe Dean, and he’s “controvertial.”)
I believe in legal abortion. I also consider myself pro-life. If the Dems move away from keeping abortion legal, I will leave. If the the Dems move away from keeping access to contraception, I will leave. If the Dems don’t start standing up for privacy rights and the rights to high quality medical care for all I will leave. If the Dems take women for granted, I will leave.
So that is my position. I just couldn’t fit it into your poll.
Thanks for putting it that way – I’m always so tempted to scream ‘I’m not not pro-life!! I’m anti-slavery!’
I hate that they’ve stolen and butchered a concept.
I supported Dennis Kucinich during the election. He is a Catholic who long opposed abortion until he listened to friends who convinced him it was a matter of freedom and equal rights. It’s refreshing to hear a politician who actually listens and thinks. Talk about vision – his idea for a cabinet level department of peace is so great!
I don’t want to think about presidential politics now, we’ve got a lot to go through before that. george is determined to undo Roe v. Wade, and that must be women’s focus for now.
I’m a Green, who left over countless other things in the 1990s (e.g. trade, welfare “reform,” criminal justice issues, war on drugs, obsessions with the stock market and fiscal conservatism, media consolidation, electoral reform issues, military policy…I could go on).
However, I would not be a member of any party that did not have a crystal clear position in favor of choice. I certainly would have left the Dems earlier had they abandoned their position in favor of reproductive freedom. And, for what it’s worth, abortion are less and less accessible in many parts of the country, and the Democratic Party has done far too little to change this trend.
Roe v. Wade was the compromise between those who believed that a woman did not have a right to health and life and those who believed that a fetus did not have any rights.
Roe v. Wade established increasing rights for the fetus, and fewer rights for the mother as the pregnancy approached full term. The Roe v. Wade decision also established that the mother’s rights to health and life extended throughout the pregnancy.
Those seeking “compromise” now, are not happy that the mother’s rights to health and life were allowed to take precedence over those of the fetus by the Roe decision. If you pay attention, you will note that all “compromise” bills being put forward by the opposition exclude the health of the mother. If they manage to pass a bill taking away the woman’s right to health, and stack the Supreme Court with ideologues who will uphold that fundamental shift, they will then work to rescind her right to life.
The theocrats’ “right to life” label is meant to ascribe that right only to the fetus, and to take our eye off the mother’s rights to life and heath.
Well, I am for the mother’s rights to life and health, and I am pro-solution for the factors that make abortion necessary.
I believe we should focus on the solutions that can help make abortion unnecessary. Let’s reduce birth-defects, by reducing pollution. Let’s reduce unwanted pregnancy, by providing truthful, accurate information to those of reproductive age, and making it easy for them to prevent pregnancy. Let’s provide quality pre-natal care to all women, to reduce the risks for both mother and baby. Let’s provide food, clothing, a livable wage, quality child care, and quality education for every family, so women will not fear to bring additional children into the world. Let’s work to prevent rape and incest, so no pregnancy will be the despised result of an act of violence.
Let’s work to make abortion safe, legal, and unnecessary.
Hi Mataliandy – I was just thinking that I hate the way that the Right has defined this issue. Also on this
“Let’s reduce unwanted pregnancy, by providing truthful, accurate information to those of reproductive age”
It’s interesting. My Mom did her practcum on this subject. The conclusion of her thesis was that Teens know where babies come from but have VERY unrealistic ideas about what is involved in parenting.
I have so conditioned myself into reframing(to myself) my position on abortion that I have to stop and think …I consider myself pro-life but the repukes have stolen that and made it into a divisive and dishonest frame. Because if you’re not pro-life then you must automatically be pro-murder according to repugs..They’ve really done a brilliant job of framing this and getting that into the public conciousness and it pisses me off to no end.
What I mean is I have always been pro-choice in the way it is used here but believe anyone who is for the right of a women and her partner if she has one to choose is pro-life. This issue to me is a simple black/white issue in that it is a no brainer for the right of an individual to choose what is best for them. No grey area for me.
If by some chance the democrats abandoned women then by my definition they would no longer be democrats and I would leave. (they’re hanging on by a thread with their not having decisively supported civil rights for gays).
I left the Democratic party long ago because Clinton started selling out on nearly every position that I thought it stood for. I actively work against anti-choice candidates and try to counter the abortion=lifetime grief propaganda regardless of who I hear it from. If things continue deteriorating I’ll be working to make sure men and women, boys and girls continue to have access to ALL forms of contraception, legal or not. I heard that Margaret Sanger was the author of the phrase “No gods, no masters”. It doesn’t matter-it’s one I’ve adopted regardless of origin.
I am one of the original “label” rebels! Don’t like having anything to do with them about anything. I tend to always vote Democratic because they have continued to say that they hold most of the views that I hold about issues of importance. These days they seem to be acting more and more as if their words mean nothing, and really always testing the wind to see what will fly before they take a stand. Which gives me no real clue to how I will vote in the future. If real voter reform does not happen, I may very well not waste my time casting another uncounted vote.
The right to privacy. Everyone allowed to make their own decisions about what is right for their own body, mind and soul. No one else can possibly make an informed decision for another person unless they are following their exact expressed opinion.
Your comments about reproductions vs. orginals reminds me, in a weird way, of a question I once was asked: “are you a practicing lesbian.” No, I informed the questioner, “I’m well past practice and into the really good stuff by now.”
Actually, for the act of nurturing another life within one’s body, I prefer the term procreation. The term reproduction both diminishes the act, and places it within a industrial (production) framework.
Of course the history of patriarchy is the diminshment and/or obfuscation of women’s centrality in the continuence of the species.
To be accurate, I believe that forcing a woman to continue a pregnancy to term that she does not want to continue is immoral – on par with slavery for the violation of the rights of a person. The fetus is not a person, and cannot be – there is no empirical evidence that could state otherwise. Thus, the only person capable of judging when the fetus’ “rights” overcome the woman’s rights is… The woman herself.
I also believe that eliminating unwanted pregnancies through sex education and freely, cheaply available effective contraception is a necessary component of any moral (pro-choice) society. Likewise, I believe that preventing people from having children is immoral… Though again, I advocate family planning education.
I would not support any party that did not support reproductive rights. But there are many issues that would cause me to stop supporting a party. Gay marriage is another one.
Define what you are meaning by “reporductive rights” and I’ll be able to answer your question.
thanks!
“the party” is Democrats? Just wondering, ’cause I can’t leave where I never was…
By Reproductive Rights I mean, your right to make decisions about whether you reproduce or not.
as a woman, as a man, child, both, all?
Reproduce as in make biological children?
I’m not trying to be snarky, I want to answer your question, but I am still unsure as to what you are asking, so I’m trying to clarify. Thanks for bearing with me!
As a voter.
So if I don’t vote, I shouldn’t bother to answer?
No, of course I’d love to hear what your feelings are on the issue if you want to share it.
..not that I think i understand the question, thanks for trying DofP….here’s my answer.
Yes. Everyone should have the right to decide whether to reproduce or not. People should be able to decide whether or not to have children. In many cases, I wish children were allowed to decide whether or not to have parents too…
For the record, I had my oldest son out of wedlock (isn’t that a grand term), and have been voting since I was 18, but I am not ‘a Democrat” in the partisian sense.
hey brinnaine,
I saw your response, tried to respond and my computer went down. In any case, this is such a personal issue, thank you for sharing that. I am also a single parent but I’m so crazy about my kids I wish I’d started sooner!
I am an “older” mom — I’m 39 and have a 6 and a 2 year old. I’m married now, but single momhood taught me a LOT that I wouldn’t trade for anything!
Do you mind my asking what the circumstances of your single mom-hood are? How old are your kiddos?
I really wasn’t trying to be a pain in the ass, I have just been asked this question so many times in so many different ways that I wanted to be sure of what I was being asked before responding (for the record, my response is always the same! *grin*)
Okay – now you have to admit that your comments kind of are coming across as snarky and/or demanding. Please clarify what you’re looking for? (Then again, your remarks weren’t aimed at me, so on second thought this is likely none of my business. Just kinda lonely tonight, so I thought I’d jump into a conversation.) Are you a Green Party member, and that’s your issue with Democrats? Perhaps you don’t vote (highly unlikely for someone on his site.
And as I continue typing this, something tells me that once again I jumped into an old thread, where all the above questions have been addressed, and I’m once again sitting here having a conversation with myself. (Hey Anom, how ya doing? Pretty good, thank, Anom!)
As long as I’m throwing myself out here for potential attack – or likely shaming myself – may I ask a favor of you without it being construed as offensive in any manner? (Because that’s certainly not my attention and I dearly enjoy your posts)
Is there any way for you to lower your sig line closer to the bottom of the page? Each time I read one of your comments, your sig line is pretty much in the middle of your post. . .and I end up getting confused in spite of the fact that I read it several times a day. . .and I realize this is my own personal quirk, so please ignore my comment if you’d prefer not to alter your sig for any reason whatsoever. It’s just that I’m <sniff>, such a delicate flower when it comes to the comment formatting.
And with that – I likely deserve to be flamed, but I meant no harm. Really. Good night!
don’t have to ‘admit”, but if they’re coming across as snarky and demanding to you, I’ll apologize for it, I guess…trying to clarify a question before i answer it.
Probelm with democrats, yeah, I’ve had one for a while, the same one I have with most politicians…no, I’m not a “Green” either, the incessant labeling tires me…if people ask the “what are you” question, I answer: a little ‘i’ independent…if they want to know more, i happily oblige.
As far as the sig… you’d have to ask BooMan about that, all I did was type it into the box with the obligatory tags on…don’t know why it looks that way to you!
Oh my. . .that was nothing short of very poorly presented on my part. Where to begin in identifying my thoughtless comments. Why don’t I start with the use of the words “snarky” and “demanding”. There’s certainly nothing for you to “admit”, nor should I have asked you to do so.
Then there’s your apology, which was certainly unwarranted (but it would seem you were being generously polite). I just couldn’t figure out the rationale for your questions. Keeping in mind that I mentioned how much I enjoy your posts, it would have been a bit more appropriate on my part to pose my questions in a more thoughtful manner – considering you’re not the type of poster to intentionally stir up trouble. . .
Oh yeah – then there was the comment in which I cornered you into a party label, instead of simply asking why you posed your questions. My comment was particularly hypocritical considering that I too am an independent – having worked on campaigns for a dem, a green, and a member of the MN Independence Party. Which made my inquiry “extra special ignorant” (ESI). Now that I think of it, that’s very likely the reason why I had so much personal difficulty responding to the poll myself.
And speaking of the poll, I had no option other than selecting “other” – although not explaining my reasons for doing so. I simply didn’t know where to begin. Aside from my lack of party affiliation, two of my best friends work on the executive committee of a national pro-life organization – and another very close friend is on the executive committee of a pro-rights organization. Not to mention my former sister-in-law, who was the president of a large chapter of NOW. I’ve learned quite a bit from listening to their different (passionate) positions, and I don’t have a simple response to the poll – there are far too many factors to consider.
In the future, I think it best that I listen to my heart when I find myself typing disclaimers indicating that someone’s comment is probably none of my business. But alas, I’m a tremendously fast typist, but “tremendously fast” doesn’t enter into the equation when it relates to my thought process.
I need to run – as I have to go plant dozens of flowers I purchased last night, and finish my planting before we get hit with thunderstorms.
Again – sorry for the less than thoughtful comments. I hope you have yourself a peaceful, prosperous day!
None at all — my position on “the issue”, whatever we want to call it, has very little to do with politics and everything to do with personal experiences.
I had my oldest son out of “wedlock” (such a lovely term isn’t it?) and not only out of wedlock, but out of any kind of relationship as well….but here’s the thing:
I had a choice. I made it. I am not sure how I would have reacted if I had felt that I had no choice, but I do know how I react on other circumstances when I feel trapped and it ain’t pretty. I’d say that I am even MORE pro-choice now than I was before I became pregnant….one of these days I am going to write a diary about it.
In any case, no hard feelings whatsoever, ok?? Oh, and thanks for saying that you enjoy my posts — even if my sig keeps being in an annoying place! 😉
Okay, cool – as I mentioned last night, when I get bored and lonely I just jump into any old thread no matter how old the diary, and no matter if I’m jumping into the dead center of an ongoing discussion. Oh well. Fa la!
I have a question for you, and you certainly don’t need to respond if you choose not to. I assumed (correctly or not) that you had an abortion. If so, (or even if not, for that matter) what is your opinion of women who wear T-shirts to pro-choice rallies proudly proclaiming that they had an abortion?
I realize this is an immensely sensitive subject, and I myself am a strong proponent of pro-rights (because let’s just say I could have very easily been in your shoes a few times a couple decades ago). But what I don’t understand are the T-shirts – I think it’s a very unfortunate, private matter, and I can’t comprehend announcing it to the world.
And yes, I understand there are many women out there who view it as countering a stigma, and there’s no reason they shouldn’t wear the T-shirts. I’m a strong proponent of free speech, but no matter how long I think about the subject, I still can’t understand why someone would want to advertise that they had an abortion. I personally disagree with others who view it as the equivalent to a dental procedure. I myself view it as far more emotionally traumatic to the woman involved.
Your thoughts? (I promise not to judge you either way, I’m just seeking a better understanding.)
I have never had an abortion. The choice I made was to have my son — he’s six now. Or did you mean that BEFORE you read my post, you had assumed I had an abortion? I am not angry but curious: what made you assume that?
As to why the women wear those t-shirts, they may be countering not the “stigma” as you call it, but the stereotypes of trauma and shame they are supposed to be feeling…maybe thee point that they are making is that, yes, it IS supposed to be a private matter, and that by wearing the t-shirts they are saying, if you don’t like it that we “advertise” (though I have problems with that use of the word) then why are you (meaning the people who want to take away choice) coming into our private matters in the first place??
I don’t know though, you would have to ask them why. I certainly would never presume to speak for a woman who has had an abortion, except to defend her rights, of course! 😉
For myself, I made, the AGONIZING, choice to have my baby, because, bottom line for me was that if I were to live with something the rest of my life, I thought it better to live with a child. That said, I was 32 years old. Had already earned a BA and an MA 10 years earlier and was in the process of earning my Ph.D. (still in that process…that’s another diary topic for a later day!) — I made a deal with myself when I finished my masters, that if I got pregnant from there on out, I would not have any excuse for having an abortion — I made it another 9 years! 😉
Even with all of my advantages, making the choice to have the baby was hard, having the baby even harder, and I wouldn’t make a different one even knowing what I do now about the indifference and prejudices of society to single mothers. But that was MY choice, and I would never in a million years think it was my place or the state’s or anyone else’s to make that choice for someone else. Never.
Sorry about that. As soon as I hit “post” I realized I had worded my comment in an unfortunate manner. (In retrospect, I think it was your emphasis on the word “choice”, but that’s irrelevant. I shouldn’t have presented ANY type of assumption about ANYTHING without fully understanding any given situation.)
I had only posed the question about the T-shirts because I think it had been discussed at great length on Kos, but I hadn’t been in a position to read the thread. I merely wondered if you knew the rationale from reading the comments or from speaking to other women about the subject. I certainly wasn’t asking you to be the voice of any group, and I regret that my comment came off that way – I was simply trying to engage in conversation.
I just ran spellcheck on this post, and discovered I had written 13 paragraphs filled with highly diverse experiences, examples and opinions. But then it occurred to me that the post was far, far too long and contained far too many sensitive issues of potential volatility. Given my recent track record of misunderstandings, it seemed best that I delete the post, although on the surface I didn’t see anything that might be construed as troublesome. I’m currently backed into a corner with work deadlines, and I couldn’t afford to submit any comments that might result in the need for expanded explanations later on. (That wasn’t a snide remark, I’m simply not in a position to post for awhile, and I didn’t want to leave any comments hanging out there with the inability to respond.)
Anyway – allow me to say that I commend you for everything you’ve done to provide for your child – including any sacrifices you’ve made along the way, and your efforts as a role model in continuing your advanced education, supporting a child on your own, and still making the time to be involved in politics. I have the utmost respect for your decision, and I also respect the decisions of others who chose differently.
I just need to keep reading and listening and learning, because I’ve found that sometimes I fail to see the long-term ramifications of this administration’s actions – along with all their hidden agendas. Allow a pharmacist not to fill a woman’s prescription today, and it might be Roe v Wade tomorrow. For that matter, it wouldn’t surprise me if this administration somehow deemed abortions as being an issue of national security. Because we all know they’re going to need as many children as possible to grow up to be soldiers in support of all the occupations in the Middle East.
Bye!
you have nothing to apologize about!
I’ll wait for more, when you have the time, all I can say is that I HOPE you saved those 13 paragraphs so that I can have the opportunity to read them at some point! This is the kind of discussion I LOVE to have!
I look forward to talking with you more and good luck on the work deadlines…..maybe by the time you come back, I’ll have actually written something! (heh, but don’t place any bets on it, k?)
It’s all good, Anom! And thanks for the comends…life is a funny ole thing is all!
Thanks much – I had to take a little break to run around the house shutting windows after a massive hailstorm broke out, so I figured I’d check in quickly before I got back to work. (You see, that’s my REAL problem – I spend a little too much time on BT, and not enough time on client projects, then all hell breaks loose when I suddenly remember I have pending deadlines and I haven’t begun the project. But it adds quite a bit of excitement to my life.)
UH OH! TORNADO WARNINGS!!! I thought it got awfully quiet and quite a bit cooler a bit too fast. Oh well. As I’m known to say, “Fa La”. If I’m in any danger, my husband will come in from the garage and drag me away from my computer to safety. Maybe not – I see him outside staring at the sky, which must mean there’s something bad going down, because he’s a guy, and if a tornado were within a couple blocks he’d still be looking at it, thinking “WAY COOL, where’s the camera!”
I’m not exactly sure of the specific subject matter in which you’re interested, because my deleted post was quite the stream of consciousness undertaking – with a variety of different scenarios of experiences ranging from abortions that made me angry to the negative treatment toward a friend who chose to have many, many children – which made me angry. (And all other points in between – and I think I was angry about each situation ;-). So, if that’s of any interest to you – I’ll find a moment at some point, but I think we better move to the left margin before we get all squished over on the right. (And I think I better move away from the window. . .)
Hmmm. . .no more sirens but my husband disappeared. I bet he’s going out to buy me some flowers. That’s it – big ol bouquet of flowers and a nice bottle of wine for no special reason. Yeah. Right. LOL! 😉
“Talk” to you later, and have a nice evening. I have to go give infidel a quick chewing out, before I get back to work.
bye!
For a second I thought this would be a discussion of the Kama Sutra.
I think “pro-choice” is a lousy frame. I consider it pro-freedom or anti-slavery. But however it’s couched, if the Dems abandoned women’s equality I would not even know the party any more.
My sense is that the party, as it is now, cannot win a 3-legged race at the fairgrounds. The hypocrisy of Biden and Feinstein and their ilk I find especially distasteful. Until a real progressive party platform — or new progressive party, even — emerges, the Republicans will rule and continue their rape of our resources and destruction of our secular democracy. And women can expect to be restored to state-owned breeder status.
It’s very telling that for all the failings of Bush and Frist and DeLay, and their atrocious poll numbers, no Democrat stands out with any vision whatsoever. (Except maybe Dean, and he’s “controvertial.”)
I believe in legal abortion. I also consider myself pro-life. If the Dems move away from keeping abortion legal, I will leave. If the the Dems move away from keeping access to contraception, I will leave. If the Dems don’t start standing up for privacy rights and the rights to high quality medical care for all I will leave. If the Dems take women for granted, I will leave.
So that is my position. I just couldn’t fit it into your poll.
Thanks for putting it that way – I’m always so tempted to scream ‘I’m not not pro-life!! I’m anti-slavery!’
I hate that they’ve stolen and butchered a concept.
What a great response, and one I didn’t expect. A complicated answer to a complicated issue.
I supported Dennis Kucinich during the election. He is a Catholic who long opposed abortion until he listened to friends who convinced him it was a matter of freedom and equal rights. It’s refreshing to hear a politician who actually listens and thinks. Talk about vision – his idea for a cabinet level department of peace is so great!
I don’t want to think about presidential politics now, we’ve got a lot to go through before that. george is determined to undo Roe v. Wade, and that must be women’s focus for now.
Wow, and you hardly ever hear of Politicians moving in that direction. Ronald Reagan used to be Pro Choice…and an Atheist.
(So I voted “other” above)
I’m a Green, who left over countless other things in the 1990s (e.g. trade, welfare “reform,” criminal justice issues, war on drugs, obsessions with the stock market and fiscal conservatism, media consolidation, electoral reform issues, military policy…I could go on).
However, I would not be a member of any party that did not have a crystal clear position in favor of choice. I certainly would have left the Dems earlier had they abandoned their position in favor of reproductive freedom. And, for what it’s worth, abortion are less and less accessible in many parts of the country, and the Democratic Party has done far too little to change this trend.
On Bad Days, I visit your party platform page.
I don’t believe in either label.
Roe v. Wade was the compromise between those who believed that a woman did not have a right to health and life and those who believed that a fetus did not have any rights.
Roe v. Wade established increasing rights for the fetus, and fewer rights for the mother as the pregnancy approached full term. The Roe v. Wade decision also established that the mother’s rights to health and life extended throughout the pregnancy.
Those seeking “compromise” now, are not happy that the mother’s rights to health and life were allowed to take precedence over those of the fetus by the Roe decision. If you pay attention, you will note that all “compromise” bills being put forward by the opposition exclude the health of the mother. If they manage to pass a bill taking away the woman’s right to health, and stack the Supreme Court with ideologues who will uphold that fundamental shift, they will then work to rescind her right to life.
The theocrats’ “right to life” label is meant to ascribe that right only to the fetus, and to take our eye off the mother’s rights to life and heath.
Well, I am for the mother’s rights to life and health, and I am pro-solution for the factors that make abortion necessary.
I believe we should focus on the solutions that can help make abortion unnecessary. Let’s reduce birth-defects, by reducing pollution. Let’s reduce unwanted pregnancy, by providing truthful, accurate information to those of reproductive age, and making it easy for them to prevent pregnancy. Let’s provide quality pre-natal care to all women, to reduce the risks for both mother and baby. Let’s provide food, clothing, a livable wage, quality child care, and quality education for every family, so women will not fear to bring additional children into the world. Let’s work to prevent rape and incest, so no pregnancy will be the despised result of an act of violence.
Let’s work to make abortion safe, legal, and unnecessary.
Hi Mataliandy – I was just thinking that I hate the way that the Right has defined this issue. Also on this
“Let’s reduce unwanted pregnancy, by providing truthful, accurate information to those of reproductive age”
It’s interesting. My Mom did her practcum on this subject. The conclusion of her thesis was that Teens know where babies come from but have VERY unrealistic ideas about what is involved in parenting.
Makes those Potato classes very important.
unrealistic ideas about what is involved in parenting, can’t really be surprised that teenagers don’t!
I have so conditioned myself into reframing(to myself) my position on abortion that I have to stop and think …I consider myself pro-life but the repukes have stolen that and made it into a divisive and dishonest frame. Because if you’re not pro-life then you must automatically be pro-murder according to repugs..They’ve really done a brilliant job of framing this and getting that into the public conciousness and it pisses me off to no end.
What I mean is I have always been pro-choice in the way it is used here but believe anyone who is for the right of a women and her partner if she has one to choose is pro-life. This issue to me is a simple black/white issue in that it is a no brainer for the right of an individual to choose what is best for them. No grey area for me.
If by some chance the democrats abandoned women then by my definition they would no longer be democrats and I would leave. (they’re hanging on by a thread with their not having decisively supported civil rights for gays).
I left the Democratic party long ago because Clinton started selling out on nearly every position that I thought it stood for. I actively work against anti-choice candidates and try to counter the abortion=lifetime grief propaganda regardless of who I hear it from. If things continue deteriorating I’ll be working to make sure men and women, boys and girls continue to have access to ALL forms of contraception, legal or not. I heard that Margaret Sanger was the author of the phrase “No gods, no masters”. It doesn’t matter-it’s one I’ve adopted regardless of origin.
I am one of the original “label” rebels! Don’t like having anything to do with them about anything. I tend to always vote Democratic because they have continued to say that they hold most of the views that I hold about issues of importance. These days they seem to be acting more and more as if their words mean nothing, and really always testing the wind to see what will fly before they take a stand. Which gives me no real clue to how I will vote in the future. If real voter reform does not happen, I may very well not waste my time casting another uncounted vote.
The right to privacy. Everyone allowed to make their own decisions about what is right for their own body, mind and soul. No one else can possibly make an informed decision for another person unless they are following their exact expressed opinion.
Oh, I thought this was a poll about reproduction, not reproductive rights.
Reproduction – I’m against it. Too many people already.
Thanks keres. . .I wanted to say, I prefer originals over reproductions. . .the original always seems of better quality. LOL
Your comments about reproductions vs. orginals reminds me, in a weird way, of a question I once was asked: “are you a practicing lesbian.” No, I informed the questioner, “I’m well past practice and into the really good stuff by now.”
Actually, for the act of nurturing another life within one’s body, I prefer the term procreation. The term reproduction both diminishes the act, and places it within a industrial (production) framework.
Of course the history of patriarchy is the diminshment and/or obfuscation of women’s centrality in the continuence of the species.
Thanks. . .still chuckling
Yep, most of us lesbians are far beyond the practicing stage, thank goodness!
Procreation sounds just fine to me too.
To be accurate, I believe that forcing a woman to continue a pregnancy to term that she does not want to continue is immoral – on par with slavery for the violation of the rights of a person. The fetus is not a person, and cannot be – there is no empirical evidence that could state otherwise. Thus, the only person capable of judging when the fetus’ “rights” overcome the woman’s rights is… The woman herself.
I also believe that eliminating unwanted pregnancies through sex education and freely, cheaply available effective contraception is a necessary component of any moral (pro-choice) society. Likewise, I believe that preventing people from having children is immoral… Though again, I advocate family planning education.
I would not support any party that did not support reproductive rights. But there are many issues that would cause me to stop supporting a party. Gay marriage is another one.