Just so you all know, this is my first attempt at a diary, so Pleeeease be gentle,……… or don’t :0)
What I’m hoping for with this diary is to get a better insight into how my daughters, I have two, 15, and 12, but particularly my 15 yr old, are doing in life in general, how they are coping with peer pressure, pre-womanhood and all the pressure that goes with that, the little wolves, sorry, I mean boys who are now calling our house for them all the time. How they might be looking to me as a model for what they like or maybe don’t like or look for in boys/men, and what things that I could do to better understand them and help them along, not that I’m sure they want it.
Now here’s the tricky part. I have come to realize that maybe I am being over protective at least as far as finding a comfortable pace (for me) and them in slowly letting them go, and grow, and begin to find for themselves what their path may be. I’m scared to death! Yikes! I know that they have secrets, and I know that they’ve probably done some things that I’ll never know about. Nor should I, I think. I’m not trying to get completely inside their heads, because after all, I’m a man and that may be an intellectual leap that I’m not capable of making :0) I’m just looking for a better understanding of them.
One of, if not the greatest strength of Booman Tribune, is the wealth of strong, passionate, caring, and outspoken women here, and it occured to me that I might be fortunate enough to get a little insight, without prying too much, into any of your memories of how things were between you and your fathers, and what you might wish he had done differently, or what he did perfectly for that matter when you were growing up and even now as adult daughters of fathers.
I want to be the perfect father, but I know thats not possible. So I was wondering if any of you daughters would be willing to help me be the best father to my daughters that I can be.
I have two daughters 15 and 13, so I am right in tune π
I’ll be waiting alongside you for insight from our BT daughters.
But right now it’s 2.02 am – time for all good Finns to be abed.
Hyvä Yöta = good night!
Well then, you’re in the same scary boat I’m in!
I hope you slept well, and thanks.
My dad and I were pretty tight growing up and still tight today.
I would say, just listen to your daughters and try not to judge what they tell you.
Give your daughters freedom, but let them know it comes with responsibilities attached but that you’ll be there for them if they screw up (and they probably will to some, hopefully small, extent).
You daughters are going to grow up, whether you want them to or not. You might as well be with them to enjoy this part of life’s journey.
Thanks for the advice, and I’m glad you and your dad are tight. It’s the same with me and my daughters. Maybe I just worry too much. What worries me the most is if I’ve taught them well enough to stand up for themselves and not to settle for people who treat them badly, because I see the pressure they and all girls are under to fit in and be accepted. Thanks again.
As cliche as it sounds, women tend to date men who are similar to their fathers. So if you respect them and show them that respect, they will and should expect it from the boys/men they date.
When my daughter moved in with me at 14, I set a large bowl full of condoms by the front door. Had to replenish it often, as word got out about the “Free Rubber Store.”
WOW I was hoping to kind of ease into the conversation a little bit :0), but since we’re there already……
That sounds like a good creative solution and at the same time, doing your part to keep the birth rate down in town.
Seriously, obviously there are some limits to what I can discuss with them regarding sex. In general terms I let them know what the possibilities and consequences are to certain bahavior and hope they remember that they can come to me even when things aren’t going right.
Gee Ben, I have to take exception to your condom bowl, ‘really’, I don’t think that is such a good idea. It’s one thing to give them to your daughter privately, but to stick out a bowl full might suggest to some that there was great need for condoms here, and I think entirely the wrong message, especially at 14…My girls would have been mortified..
Girls in my experience do not like direct sexual and public references especially from parents and for that matter many I have talked to do not like sexual inuendos always present on sit coms and other shows and movies..and from adults..everywhere.
They think it is very cheapening (and makes them uncomfortable) and so I do agree.
There was a great need for condoms in her extended social set, or the bowl wouldn’t have emptied.
Maybe a big water-balloon fight?
Great party decorations too…
This is totally off-topic and will quite likely be the grossest thing you’ll hear today.
I grew up across the street from a vacant lot, overgrown with weeds and with lots of hiding places in which to make out, smoke weed, or whatever.
When I was really little (and poor and had no actual toys of my own) I was thrilled to find a very stretchy, pliable balloon on the ground, and you could blow it up to like 5 times the size of your own head! Cool! Ewww.
I’m totally grossed out, but you made up for it with your wonderful comment below!
yeah…luckily, this was before diseases were invented.
Wo – I have to admit that your comment caught me off guard. As in – it would seem to me as though you were sending the message that your 14 year old was a slut, and you condoned boys having sex with her. Sorry, but I’m kind of stunned – seems like the kind of thing that would initiate ugly rumors. But I guess I understand where you might have thought that made you appear to be a cool parent. I don’t know.
Teenagers have sex whether their parents approved or not. The kids stopping buy understood I was interested in their safety, not just my daughter’s. It’s not like there was a sign reading “only for use with my kid.”
I’m not sure I’d have done the same thing. Hell, I’m the one asking for advice so what do I know? I’ll give you credit though for taking a direct and creative approach. You’re right of course that kids are gonna have sex regardless of whether we approve or not and too many of them go unprotected, so I see your solution as a stark, but effective one.
I just returned form having dinner with my daughter and her family and while I was there I asked my grandaughter 13 and her friend who was also 13, about about this subject, how would they feel if their parents put a bowl of condoms by the door..
They were first laughing thinking I was kidding, then I said no and how would you feel, and they replied ‘they would feel that their parent did not respect them and thinking they might be having sex instead of urging them not to which they thought was the better message from parents’..Also they said they would never let a friend in their house as long as the bowl was there…
Both said they would be so embarassed and would have serious problems with their parents should they ever do this.
They also thought it would give ideas to other kids, whether to use for intended purpose or just to make water baloons that was not necessary.
So that is what at least 2 teenage girls think about that…
Just wanted you to know I wasn’t being judgmental in any way – because I certainly don’t have the credentials. (Being a non-parent, and not having sex as a teenager, both kinda rule me out of the “firsthand experience” category π
I’ll get your back on this one, Ben. In my middle-to-upper middle class suburb nearly 80% of the kids were having sex by age 15/16 (this would’ve been in the mid-80s), and a bowl of parentally provided condoms would’ve done our town a world of good. Embarrassing? Sure. Sometimes the greater good requires a little discomfort.
Likewise. I lost my virginity at 15 because I actually sought it out. I wanted to do it with some one night stand, so I would not break my heart. Such was my logic back then! :>) I did not use protection. I barely knew what a condom was and it grossed me out.
Unlike others here, I think Ben is right on and I am sure it was done with the right spirit. Last year at Burning Man, my daughter and a bunch of friends played with a mess of condoms left in our shelter. Best of all were the flavored ones. This kids blew up the condoms, tasted the flavor ones and generally got comfortable with the whole condom thing. They were 9-11 years old. Just because I give my kid condoms, does not make her a slut. Just because I make condoms available in my house does not make my daughter a slut. Most kids won’t talk about it outside of the house, and even if they do, and neighbors find out, does not make my daughter a slut. What you are doing is a service and if done well and with a few good comments placed here and there can do wonders for kids and help stop unwanted pregnancies and STDs.
As a dad, you can offer your daughters some real insight into what makes men tick. Judging from your post and all the comments, I know you are a kick-ass dad, if a bit too protective. It is so hard to let them go. But, work out the rules for them…like, call by x, or no getting into a car, or just let me know where you are and when you will get home, etc. Lay down the rules and be willing to negotiate.
My first thoughts are to fully trust them and tell them so often.. I told all my children when they approached 10 or so that I would always trust them to do what was right for them, that even if it turned out to be a mistake I would not let that lessen my trust for them..Because I told them, they owned the action or choice not I and to have a mis-step was not a reflection on me but a more a moment in their road to adulthood.
When they did make a “mistake” I was more inclined to comfort them and listen to how the “mistake” had clarified in their minds and they now understood it and took responsibility.
The biggest thing I held against my own Dad was when he said to me, “You will have to earn my trust, now,” and that was for some self protecting measure I had taken…I vowed then never to earn his trust if he could not give it freely and never ending to me then it simply was not worth it to me..I felt that I would always be engaged in an attempt to prove myself trustworthy and never fully succeeding, never being able to live up to what he expected me to be and that was not the game I wanted to play in life, I was 13.
So you can see why I may have adopted the give them all your trust approach, and I have to say it has worked out well over the years and my children are able to tell me all they wish to…and all turned out well.
Further I would say, respect your daughters for all they are and will be, for it is not easy to be a women even yet in this world, so all the strength you can inspire in them will be well worth it.
Your experience with your father is similar to mine and my mothers, but thats a subject for another day or year. I’ll just say that as result of that relationship I was not very confident or assertive for a long time, and I’ve always given my kids all the space they need, within reason, to succeed aqnd have failures on thier own wit no pressure from me. I trust them and they know it. I believe in them and they know it, and I’m there when they need and they know it. Thanks Diane
Well I blew that comment, didn’t I?
By the way – my “4” was for your needless worries – about a “post” – compared to the scheme of things in raising your daughters. (hee!) I’m sorry, it wasn’t nice to mock a genuinely concerned father – no matter how innocent my intentions.
I also had to “earn” the trust of my parents. After a while I was like fuck it, either you trust me or you don’t. Although I claimed at the time to have not cared, it definitely carried over into my adulthood.
I don’t have children, but I maintain a very active role in the rearing of my nieces and nephews. Everyday I try to remind them that we’re in this together. If they fuck up, I have their backs. I may get mad – which is more often as they get older – but we stand together and, more importantly, I won’t let them fall. I trust them and in return they trust me.
My best friend never had kids of her own, but she was my daughter’s “honorary aunt.” (She even called her Aunt Melanie.) Melanie was there when I came near to dying having my daughter – severe pre-eclampsia, necessitating an emergency c-section at only 30 weeks. She stood at the window of the NICU and cried because, “She doesn’t even have a butt! She’s too skinny to have a butt!”
I was always so glad my daughter had her Aunt Melanie – sometimes you just need an adult you trust to talk to that’s not mom or dad. And Melanie always respected my daughter’s confidences. It was only after Melanie died and my daughter told me of some of their conversations that I heard about them for the first time. My daughter was so lucky to have her in her life.
Well, in my book, you’re already a good father because you’re trying to be a good father!
I didn’t have a good father. Mine was an alcoholic who basically abandoned his 7 daughters and 1 son from the beginning and died when we were all under 20 years old.
When I was a kid I would visit my friends at their houses and observe with real fascination and envy the relationships they had with their fathers.
Here’s what I envied those girls the most:
The fathers who were there and who showed an easy affection for their daughters. The fathers who took their daughters fishing and who asked their daughters to help fix the screen door or take out the trash. The fathers who looked at their daughters like the sun rose and set in their eyes. The fathers who came to the softball games and the art shows and the open houses. The fathers who grounded their daughters and explained why when they were caught doing wrong. The fathers who sat on the porch with their daughter and her friends and goofed around and asked how our families were doing. The fathers who took pictures and looked as if they were going to cry when their daughters came downstairs in a party dress. The fathers who questioned the boyfriends and who took them aside and told them that if they ever did anything to hurt their daughters, they would be sorry. The fathers who knew what their daughters favorite book was or who her best friend was or what she was most afraid of in the world.
Sorry, that’s long. And there’s probably way more, but you get the picture.
Just love them, treat them with respect, honor their privacy, expect much of them, don’t be critical of their appearance. And listen even if you have to bite your tongue until it bleeds.
Thats the guy I want to be! I try to be all those things, but sometimes I come up short. I did know, however, that the sun rises and sets in their eyes. Thats such a beautiful thing to say. Your whole comment was beautiful and so helpful.
Thank you
My father was not a good father…I think Second Nature put everything that I wish he had been into words perfectly.
I think your actions will teach your girls more than anything else…so do everything tou can to be the kind of man you would like to see them marry someday.
First, let me commend you on seeking advice. I wish my father would’ve done the same. Then again, maybe he did and I was just unaware.
That said, I lost my father when I was 19. When I was 18 he finally apologized for a spanking he’d given me when I was about nine because a teacher sent home some note that placed me in an unflattering, to say the least, light. It took him close to ten years to finally admit that there was a personality conflict between me and the aformentioned teacher – something he couldn’t wrap his head around at the time because she was an adult and I was just a kid.
Long story short, the best advice I can give is to trust your daughters and they will trust you back. I would also add that you should share as much of your life with them that you are comfortable sharing. They will respect you more once they realize that you have been there. And don’t be judgemental. Whatever they are going through now, they will more than likely get over. Keep a close eye on them, but let them grow at their own pace. Give them the opportunity to figure out some things on their own.
Oh, and when you can, keep it light. I learned the most from my father when it was disguised as humor. (Like the time he told me that the best form of birth control was the pill. He gave me a vitamin E pill and told me to place it between my knees and hold it there. The object, he said, was to not let it fall to the ground until my wedding night.)
The vitamin E pill…did it work? That’s hilarious!
The muscle cramping alone killed the mood.
First of all, spanking only turns a scared kid into a pissed off, and hurt kid, and says that violence is a way to settle conflicts. Trust me, I know this. Its telling that your father appologized after all that time. He must have felt pretty guilty about it. Whats worse though is that he took the teachers word against yours without questioning that teacher. The principal at the school my daughter goes to is an uppity, self absorbed, loudmouthed b..ch, and I’ve had a couple of tangles with her over the way she has treated my daughter. It’s important for kids to know that their side of the story and their opinion carry as much weight as anyone else’s. Besides, it’s good for her to see that people in authority aren’t always right just because they have some power.
As to the last part of your comment, that’s hilarious :0) How old were you when he told you that? I’m not sure i’m ready to tell my daughter something like that just yet’ as funny as it is, but I will remember it for another time.
Thanks again
That’s cool of you to understand that the principle at your daughter’s school isn’t the be all and end all. My father was real old school. He was born in 1930 and didn’t have me until 1972. It was a whole different way of thinking.
I don’t remember when exactly he told me about the pill. I think I was about 18 though…as a matter of fact, it was probably around the same time as the apology.
Also, I don’t want to make my father out to be some sort of ogre. He was a musician who encouraged me to follow my artistic endeavours, sometimes to a fault. He introduced me both literally and figuratively to the world of jazz. All in all, though he was flawed, he was a good man.
I apologize if my reply to you gave the impression that I saw your description of him as an ogre. It did not and I actually hesitated to reply the way I did exactly for that reason. Sorry. The truth is, I think that all dads have a bit of ogre in them. I know I do. It’s just mostly the big, goofy, friendly type of ogre :0)
Oh, no. I was just making a general statement to cover my own ass. I didn’t get that my pa was an ogre from your post at all. Sorry for the confusion.
When my daughter was in high school she had one teacher who was a total sexist asshole. I mean really, the stories she told. (I’d met him – I didn’t doubt her version of events for a minute.) She was always butting heads with him and getting sent to the office for it. Whenever she came home from school and said, “Coach M- sent me to the office again,” I’d say, “Go girl! You rock! I am so proud of you!”
I also have been happy to lie through my teeth for her to get around some totally stupid bureaucratic rule.
That’s so funny because when I was in high school I had a Coach M, although he was Coach H. Anyhoo, I dreaded going to his office because he was not just sexist, but racist as well. Racist in that he was black and I am black and he hated his race so he would always give us black kids shit while the white kids who were accused of the same crime – mostly having our shirts untucked, oh Catholic school – would usually go unpunished while I was forced to clean up trash.
Thank God my mom saw through that real quick. She gave me the benefit of the doubt on that one. Coach H? Well, he ended up being charged with child molestation for having sex with a number of the teenaged girls. Ha!
I think we need two kinds of things from our dad’s (and mom’s as well). The first is all of the things that people have said so far – trust, respect, nuturing. The second, is that you have to set some limits and let them know where the boundaries are. Some kids like me (and maybe your daughters) don’t need much of that, but others do. And of course, as they get older they have to decide a lot more of these things for themselves.
About the only thing I could tell you from my experience with my dad would be what not to do. And that would be a pretty long angry rant that I don’t think anyone would want to hear.
My only other comment is that I love your question. I get so tired of only hearing about how much boys need their dads. I know that is true. But girls need their dads too!!!
I’m a mom, not a dad, but there comes a moment when you realize . . . but wait! I’m not done yet! There’s so much more she needs to know and I haven’t taught it all to her yet.
When they’re little we shape their lives. We decide where they’ll go to school, who they’re allowed to play with, whether they’ll take piano lessons, or be on the soccer team. Of course, we’re listening to them and trying to learn who they are and what they want to do, giving them more freedom each year as they grow, but in the end, we make the decisions.
And then we wake up one day and find – they’re on their own, in a way, even when they’re still living with us. They’re making their own decisions about so many things. Good decisions, bad decisions, decisions that make us beam with pride and decisions that scare us to death – but their decisions.
And there is nothing we can do but let them, if we love them. The only alternative is to dominate and control and try to tyrannize them into submission – and because we love them, we can’t do that.
So we just have to say to ourselves, well, I did the best I could and I hope its good enough because the time for my making decisions for her is past now.
Having said that, I also have to say that I was the “strict” parent among my daughters’ friends. I insisted on knowing where she was and who she was with through the jr. hi and early hi school years, lightening up on that a little later. She had a curfew. When she started driving herself to school I told her that if I ever found out she ditched school, I was taking the car keys for a month. (And of course, sometimes it was her decision to come home an hour after curfew and she had to listen to me rant about how worried I was . . . but it was her decision and my ranting was the consequences of it.)
When she was 20, she told me, “You know, sometimes I thought you were so mean. Most of my friends – their parents let them do anything, most of the time they didn’t even know where they were, they stayed out all night sometimes. But even when I was yelling at you for being so mean, I knew you were doing it because you loved me. My friends, I think they thought – deep down – their parents really didn’t care about them. But I always knew – deep down – how much you loved me.”
So – my advice – be strict on the things that say, “I care.” And always explain why you’re being strict about something. That’s another thing my daughter said I did good on – “I always knew why, you always explained it to me. Because you explained it was why I knew you were doing it for me, and not for you – you weren’t doing it because you wanted me to be a certain way, or to have a certain kind of kid, but because you cared about me.”
(And btw, she also told me later that she never, not once, ditched school. “I knew you’d probably never find out, but I couldn’t take the chance.” She loves to drive.)
My relationship with my father was very bad, and the only thing I could give you from that experience is to tell you what not to do. I can see from your diary you already know not to be like him, so never mind about that.
My daughter’s father on the other hand is the greatest dad. I think he was only distantly interested when I got pregnant and while I was pregnant, but the minute he saw her he was a goner. Totally besotted, and remains so. She was 10 weeks early and weighed two and a half pounds and their first visit was in the NICU – she looked terrible, hooked up to machines – and he sang to her for hours. He came back to my room and said, “When I sang to her I could see on the monitor how calm her breathing and heartrate was . . .”
(Time out for getting all teary eyed at the memory.)
He loves her to pieces. And she knows it. That’s all that really matters.
that was so long, but well, you asked. You get me talking about my daughter and I just can’t shut up. She’s 25 now and I just spent the day with her. I remain in awe of how wonderful she is.
Well Janet, thanks a ton. I thought I’d make it through the whole Dad/kid thread without tearing up.
I still have 3 of my kids at home (barely!)and your advice about driving and curfews is very relevent and timely to me.
I struggle so much with their leaving home and the loss of identity that I already feel. I am bracing myself for some really tough times ahead when I have to figure out who I really am when I am not mothering. I have no idea.
Sorry to hijack the father/daughter thread into my own whiney, self-absorbed, empty nest rant. π
because he’s going to face the same thing all too soon, I can tell you from this side of the empty nest – it will be OK. Her dad and I separated when she was 9 and she’s my only child, so I was really terrified about how I’d handle her moving out.
Answer. Not a problem. Of course, I missed her. But I’ve found, since she was born, that you’re always ready for the next stage of parenthood, even when you don’t think you are. I was scared to death that I would screw up the adolescent years, but you know, when the yelling and door-slamming and terrified-because-she’s-not-home-yet started, I found I could handle it. (Not that I’d want to repeat that part.)
And related to the car thing – once she started driving, she spent less and less time at home, so I was already kind of used to being on my own. I think it’s nature’s way of helping both parent and child let go, their spending more and more time with their friends and less with their parents. When she moved out, she took her dog, and I joked with her that I missed the dog more than her, since the dog was always around and she rarely was, the last year or so she was at home.
But I found all kinds of freedom I hadn’t realized that I’d let go of. I didn’t think I’d want it back – I thought I’d just want her back (oh woe is lonely me! I thought I’d be feeling), but as she moved into a new phase of her life, I moved into a new phase of mine, and we’re both growing together.
And I just love having an adult daughter. Today, I said something was in-fucking-credible and had a flash of how I used to watch my language when she was a teenager, because my cussing embarrassed her if I did it in front of her friends – so I stopped cussing altogether so as not to blow it at the wrong moment. When I said that today, she just looked at me and laughed – with both love and amusement in her eyes.
You’ll be fine. You’ll be ready when the time comes. A little time to adjust and a few tears when the moving out happens and then you’ll find out that having grown-up kids is wonderful too.
More pragmatic stuff – I read? heard? can’t remember now – this advice before my daughter got to driving age and used it.
In Texas, kids can get a restricted/learner’s permit type license a year before a regular one. She got one at the first minute she was eligible (even started taking driver’s ed before she was old enough for the license, which is legal if they will be 15 by the time the class finishes). It allows them to drive if there is a licensed driver in the front seat. Rule #1 – she was only allowed to drive if the licensed driver in question was her dad or I – not with slightly older teenaged friends. Rule #2 – anywhere we went, she drove and her dad or I were the passenger. (Adjust as necessary for your state.)
By the time we had to let her take off on her own in a car, she’d had a whole year of practice driving under our watchful eyes and I knew by then that she was a good driver. (Better than I am – I still let her drive when we go somewhere together.) So much of driving is practice and honing your driving instincts and reactions. I was really glad she’d had time to get that experience before she was on her own in a car.
And get them a cell phone, if they don’t have one already and your finances allow.
Janet, that was an inspiring and moving post. I am so gratefull to all of you who have taken the time to reply to me. It’s just awesome. I think I’ll print out this whole thread and save it because it’s so full of good advice and heartfelt, honest recollections, and it’s so good of all of you to give in that way.
If there is anyone that I’ve missed, I apologize, but I have to get going for the night. I’m totally looking forward to coming back tomorrow and re- reading all of this.
Thank you all so much.
Peace
Okay, I haven’t taken the time to read all the comments, and I’m speaking from the perspective of my 46 years as a daughter, with no experience as a parent. Having given those disclaimers. . .
I want to stick with Diane’s theme of trust. That was huge. I’m the youngest of 6 and was Daddy’s girl from day one. My father was in his early 40s when I was born, so I was typically mistaken as his granddaughter (keeping in mind that was the 60s and parents had children at much younger ages in those days.) We had a really tight relationship, but he was a man of few words. And that has always been pretty cool – understanding each other without the need for many of those pesky words, so to speak. We hung out together doing everything when I was young – I was his viewing partner for Vikings games, and we’d sit outside on the lawnchairs on hot summer afternoons, listening to Twins games on the radio. He taught me his crafts, and we shared hobbies.
And when I entered my teen years. . .yes. . .although I was consistently in honors programs, I partied. A lot. In the 1970s. On the one hand, I was raised in a strict Catholic household, so I didn’t even consider sex as an option. And I naively couldn’t imagine that my friends were having sex. (HA!)
To this day, my mother questions the parenting they provided. I don’t know whether she just needs assurances or whether she actually thinks she may have messed up. And her biggest question to me has been, “Was I too lenient?” (Which she said shortly after confirming she knew I smoked weed every day in high school. . .starting with one of those: “oh by the ways”. . .)
The thing was, I hung out with a group that conducted quite a bit of chemical experimentation. To the point that it concerned me about potential effects to future children I may have. But I had the utmost respect for my parents, and I always made curfew. (I would never consider throwing a party in my parents’ home when they were out of town, and all my friends had a great deal less respect for their parents.) Well, when I was into those said activities, I’d eavesdrop on my parent’s conversations. And each time my mother accused my of anything, (to which she was always accurate) my father would back me up. In fact, to this day I get such a kick out of our connection when I visit him in the nursing home. In spite of his brain damage, each time my mother comes up with something about me (like I drove too fast on the way to the nursing home) my father still backs me up. With background defense to go along with it. And when he’s done, he glances over with a sparkle in his eye, knowing we just got away with it again. Drives my mother nuts – but I always jokingly apologize and tell her she was right. (To which she sniffs in distaste and gives me “the look”.)
One thing I’m not sure I’d do – and maybe it was because of my environment with older parents, and not having such open communications as now – here goes:
When I got my first period, it was bad enough because my mother wasn’t prepared with the. . .um. . .products I’d need. And that evening, when my father came home to his typical short glass of brandy, straight up – he handed me the glass without saying a word. I was so mortified!! My mother had TOLD him!! (hides head) So – if you plan to “celebrate” your daughters’ womanhood – make sure to talk it through with your wife first. :-).
Based on everything you’ve said, it’s obvious you know what to do. But if an 86 year old Mom still needs assurances about her abilities as a parent, I can certainly understand where you would too. Best wishes – I’m sure you’ll be fine!
Great advice you are getting (I wish all these commenters were around when I was raising my kid!).
I just wanted to add… be sure to let them know that they can count on you to play ‘the heavy’. Sometimes that is needed as a way for them to save face among their peers, but still not do something they don’t want to do.
I remember when my daughter was 16 or 17, she went to a get together at a friends house, and I believe she had like an 11:30 or 12 am curfew. She called me at about 10pm to say… “Some of my friends are going to such and such a person’s house instead. Can I go?”. Now, while I’d like to pretend my little one was a perfect angel, and listened all the time… she wasn’t. And if she had wanted to go, she would have gone and I would have been none the wiser.
So luckily, before I could give permission (I knew the second person’s house as well), I stopped myself and thought for a minute.. then said (loudly, so that anyone listening could hear) “No! Absolutely not. In fact, come home now.” From the lack of any real protest, I realized that that was exactly what she wanted… apparently there was an uncomfortable situation there and she needed me to get her out of it.
Sometimes we do the right things completely by accident. I do wish children came with a learning manual though.
Sounds like you are on the right track, although there will of course be mistakes made – hopefully only small ones. Listening to what they are saying, and especially what they are not, is one of the most important things you can do though, in my view.
You know my friend, we women could give you all the advise in the world but just from your posts I can tell you are already a fabulous father, if only for this diary alone. It means you love and care for them and want only the best for your daughters. What you want for them is not always going to be what they want for themselves. Honor their judgement until they have breeched your trust. Never demand respect, one really must earn that(which it sounds like you have).
We are all told we are going to make mistakes in parenting. I don’t believe in mistakes, I look at them as lessons. The only mistake then would be to ignore the lesson. But don’t worry the teacher(or lesson) will keep appearing until we get it.
Be easier on yourself and enjoy your girls while they are still around. You’ll be walking them down the aisle before you knowit. My son just turned 35 which seems so impossible to me. My greatest joy has been observing him being a father. He amazes me and his daughter adores him. I told him to enjoy it because the period will come when she will think he’s a pain in the butt. She’s eight and he is already worrying about her first date. Relax! They will be just fine and turn into lovely young women right before your eyes…or they won’t…lol!
Listen. A Lot. Trust your daughters. Trust yourself. You’ll make mistakes. They’ll make mistakes.
Encourage them to have their own points of view even if those views conflict with your own. They need to know that you love them even when you disagree.
It could get ugly for a while. It seemed like my daughter was abducted by aliens for a few years. Now that she’s in her mid-twenties, we are closer than ever before.
Judo or Model Mugging
It is important to be your daughter’s friend but don’t forget to be their Dad. Teen agers need limits to struggle against and sometimes to use as an excuse when life is going too fast.
Let them know that there is more to life than whether or not they are attractive to boys and “condom worthy”. By all means if you think they should be having casual sex with anyone who asks, put the bowl of condoms by the door and ignore the spiritual aspect of having sex with someone you truly love. But if you want them to have good relationships, let them know that sex is better when they are in a love relationship. You don’t have to pry to let them know what you hope for them and what your values are.
Don’t criticize the way they look or their weight. Let them know that the men who are worth while are the ones who are like you, someone who loves them for who they are and think they are beautiful just the way they are.
In other words be the kind of man you hope they will fall in love with, because that is what will happen more likely than not. So talk to them with respect and let them know that any man who doesn’t do the same is not worth bothering with.
The way you treat their mother or whatever SO they see you with is the way they will expect to be treated. So if you have any lingering sexism or uncontroled anger issues check it and work it out of your life.
Let them know they can do anything they set their minds too. The only way kids build self estime is by accomplishment. Kids who are babied and never allowed to try anything new can’t accomplish anything and will never have confidence.
My nine year old niece can’t cut her own food because her mother does it for her. She wanted me to cut her french toast for her one day and I refused. She struggled but she did it. Frankly I am appalled at my sister. So if you think there is something they aren’t quite ready for, like changing a tire or painting a bedroom, let them do it anyway. Nobody worth knowing likes a lazy helpless woman.
Give them the idea that they should be self sufficient and expect to support themselves. Encourage them to do what they love even if you don’t understand whatever that thing is.
Forgot something…. Don’t make crude comments about women. If you are admiring women’s body parts at the mall or commenting on what Pamela Anderson’s body etc… they are going to try to aspire to whatever it is you admire. Unless of course you want them to think big boobs and bimbo appeal are all that is worthy in a woman and the best they can do in life.
By all means if you think they should be having casual sex with anyone who asks, put the bowl of condoms by the door and ignore the spiritual aspect of having sex with someone you truly love. But if you want them to have good relationships, let them know that sex is better when they are in a love relationship.
What about making condoms readily available to teens seems to you to necessarily send negative messages? Seems to me that the only particular message it necessarily sends is that one thinks that if teens choose to have sex then they should use a condom. I suppose if one never had a conversation with one’s teens about sex they could get all kinds of screwed up messages about it, but that seems true with or without a bowl of condoms around so I’m not sure I understand what you’re getting at when you seem to take a negative stance about making condoms easily available to them.
Maybe I’m misunderstanding where you’re coming from?
Please see my comment upthread, I interviewed two teenage girls tonight on this very subject…After reading it here today..see what they thought about it..
I fully appreciate that there are a variety of individual points of view on these kinds of issues, and that your granddaughter and her friend may have very different opinions on the matter from other teens, or from me when I was a teen.
I have to tell you, though, Diane, if my grandmother had asked me about this at age 13, I’d have likely said the exact same thing as your granddaughter, even though it wouldn’t have been honest. I think it’s a safe guess that that’s not uncommon. As well, I’d have gone ahead and given her the honest answer by the time I was 16. My landscape changed quite a bit from age 13 to age 16.
Now it probably does need to be said that I am in no way projecting my own experiences on to your granddaughter, her friend, or any other teenager. I totally realize that all teens are just as different as all adults are. I’m just pointing out that teens aren’t always up front with the adults in their lives, for various reasons. Nonetheless, they often know how to give answers that are expected of them, and this is sometimes a relevant factor when we, as adults, try to assess what we think we know about the teenagers in our lives.
By now it probably also needs to be said that I’m not necessarily advocating a bowl of condoms by the front door of every house with a teenager in it! π I’m just saying that based on my experience (and that of my friends, and my sisters, and their friends), it’s not a universally bad idea to make condoms readily available inside the home. I realize that people will disagree on this, but I’d hope that we can all remember how obvious it is that raising children to be reasonably well-adjusted adults is one of the hardest things in the world, and that there’s no single right way to do it. π
I realize that some might think teenagers would not tell adults the truth, but that is not considering what teenagers are like today and I do think I have a way with talking to them..
As a matter of fact they were so interested in this that it led to a discussion of this site and then of politics, which they were just enthralled to hear, they lined up in front of me in chairs and begged me to go on. At the end I found two young democrats sitting in front of me willing to go out and spread the word impeachment to the world..
The friend even started to talk about going into politics and thinking of colleges where she could get a good education.
All in all it let to a very stimulating discussion with them and I would bet you my last dollar they were completely forthright with me and they also shared other interesting things about the whole parent world from their perspective about which I will do a diary soon, I think. They were very excited that I was “interviewing them” and would later write their words here. Names are Sydney and Michelle…
I hope you didn’t misread my post and wind up with the impression that I was insinuating that your granddaughter and her friend were lying to you. To reiterate, I was only pointing out the possibility because it’s relevant to the larger discussion. I’ve been talking in generalities here, so there will always be exceptions.
I’m glad you have a good relationship with your granddaughter. I think that’s super!
My primary point is that no single teenager is capable of representing her entire generation. Teenagers, like adults, are not monolithic. Some teenagers in every generation are going to have sex, period. As adults we have to face that reality and keep them as safe as we can. Strategies on how to do that are just as variable as the teenagers themselves.
No I didn’t take your comment wrong, I was just following up with additional info…I realize not all are the same of course, but this point of view is real and should be considered, I think, and to add I feel it perfectly fine to have conversations and provide advice but to keep it private with the child.
Also I think it is important to talk to the child to see how she’he feels about a lot of things, much can be gained by a simple dialogue..and to listen to what they say.
My daughter has problems with this, she will ask something and then give the answer and if her daughters answer differs she will swear she is not telling the truth..
I agree that each parent will handle it in their own way, not much to be done about that…I suspect, but I do like to suggest alternatives and other points of view which I have garnered after a mothering period that lasted from for about 35 years till my last reached 18 plus several years as a live in nanny to dev. disabled and ‘normal’ children.
So right!
Children need their parents to be parents, not to try to be their best friends.
The toughest part of parenting is doing what is needed even when it means you’ll be Unpopular Parent. Too often parents worry about whether their children will “like them.” The best parent is the one who realizes that the job isn’t about being the kid’s best buddy. Daughter or son have plenty of peers for that. They’ll only ever have (if lucky these days) two parents.
And it’s for sure a lifetime job. If you’re a good parent, chances are one day you’ll have an adult friend the rest of your life.
Advice? Remember that your daughter regards herself as much an individual as you regard yourself. She has the right to make her own choices — career, hobbies, politics, religion, spouse. She doesn’t belong to you; she’s only on loan to you for 18 years.
Okay, I’m back and just finished reading through all the new comments. Your comment Limelite stood out to me because I have struggled with the fine line between being my daughters friend and at the same time maintaining the boundaries enough to let them know that there are limits and if those limits are breached they can expect that I will call them on it and there will be consequences. Those consequences aren’t as scary as they might sound anyway, but they know that it takes a lot to get me to that point and when there, it’s something pretty serious.
When I was a teenager I moved in with my Dad after my Mom decided she could no longer handle me at 15. When I think back now, I have to give her credit for putting up with me that long, even though that decision flies in the face of my personal motto, which is, Never Give Up. So here I had gone from a very strict parent to one who basically was no parent at all. He was great at being a friend, or so I thought at the time because he pretty much let me do whatever I wanted. That included getting high in the house because he and his girlfriend did the same. Now at the time, I was the envy of all my friends because they thought I had the coolest Dad in the world, when in reality I didn’t have a Dad at all. This dynamic has made my relationship with him very tricky to say the least. His ideas about being a father and mine couldn’t be more different. The funny think is that now he seems to think that he deserves some kind of exalted elder status that in my opinion he never earned. This has created many memorable…let’s say…discussions between he and I about how my kids, and me for that matter, should be more respectful of him, and that’s the part he doesn’t get. He never gave me a reason to respect him. The world is full of friends. I can get friends. I only had one shot at getting a father though and all I got was another friend.
Thats my little rant about my own father ok? Thanks for allowing me the space, and thanks so much for the advice.
Limelite, your comment makes me think of the most valuable lesson I’ve learned as a parent: My kids (albeit both boys) are happiest when they know that some rules are the rules, are the rules, are the rules! As my older son said the other night, “You know she’s not going to change her mind about that, you’d have a better chance at convincing a brick wall to get up and move over 5 inches.”
Learning to say “I’m not here to win a popularity contest, I’m here to help you be the best people you can be,” has been a blessing at our house.
Okay, your comment brings my kids mother into the picture. Something I naively thought I could leave out of all this. This might turn out to be (gulp) a little shocking after everyone here pretty much has said that I’m doing a good job. This will also call into question my own sense of limits and boundaries and what I’m willing to live with and accept. More importantly though I think it will cause some of you, or maybe all, to rethink your opinions of me and my ability to protect my kids from harmful, traumatic shit. supersoling walks off the cliff here and I fully expect and understand that there may be some harsh comments about this.
The worst first. My wife was sexually abused by the man she thought was her father, he was actually her step father but she didn’t find this out until she was 14. This all happened when she was 10 yrs old. Okay, just think about that for a second.
The second worst next. My wife has attempted suicide twice. One time I’m not sure about, but the second time was real. I found her just in time to get her to the hospital. This second “real” time was witnessed by our kids okay? I don’t even know if I want to say more about it really. I have struggled over the years between wanting to get away, and removing the kids from all this destructive chaos, and sticking by my wife, and their mother because in the end, no matter the severity of her actions, I see her first as a victim and you don’t abandon people who have been victimized by monsters. Especially when you love that person. The biggest internal struggle for me though has been where to draw the line between loyalty to a wonderful, caring, beautiful person who at the same time is creating the kind of fear for us that I can’t explain. There are, or have been a few people in my life who are angry with me for not removing my kids from this, but their solution is to abandon my wife, which I won’t do. Not ever, no matter what our relationship ends up being.
There’s so much more but I’m gonna stop here. I’m hoping that the vaunted understanding and compassion of Bootrib members is not just a nice thought because I’ve just stepped out on a pretty thin limb here.
Peace
I just read your comment and I thought I might make a comment here. As one who went through a period of deep depression + drug/alchohol abuse in the midst of my family life and all the attendant hell I brought to my family, the one wish I had throughout was for someone to embrace me and say we/I love you and we are going to get you some help and we will stand by you and give you all our love and support. I was afraid to ask for help as I thought the admission I needed it would backfire on me and I would be abandoned…
My husband tended to use things against me and colored our childrens thinking to a great extent so I feared to tell and instead worked myself out of it the hard way, alone, but with the grace of God…
I did have some support from my friends and later a lot from my children as I gradually clawed my way out of the miasma that was my life..
Now I know I might have still resisted even had someone come to me like that, but it stood a better chance of working than seeing the fingers pointed and hearing the words spoken behind my back. It would have been kinder also.
Now I have stepped out on this limb with you supersoling and I am not afraid…
Hi again Diane. Thanks for coming out here with me on this limb. It’s a lot less scary with you here too. I don’t want to give the impression that I’ve been some kind of stellar, super supportive husband all the time. The truth is that these kinds of relationships and dynamics are like trying to walk through a mine field. Sooner or later, something goes BOOM. It is very hard to remain supportive when you love someone who has been through what my wife and others like her, maybe you too, have been through. Not for lack of love or compassion or even dogged determination. But just because of how those crimes are re- manifested and acted out, and how all of that can affect a family.
I still don’t know what is right, I only know that my wife is a good person who has lived through some godawful shit in her life, and at the very least is entitled to have one person in her life who won’t abandon her. For better or for worse, that person has turned out to be me, so here I’ll stay.
Thank you for sharing your experiences with me. I want you to know that your words and advice are very encouraging and help me to remain hopeful that things will be allright.
I hear all of your words and understand your place and situation..I want to urge you to try to get some real help for your wife, whether it spiritual or medical…These things can be brought under control.
So many of us here have been through some really rough stuff and we understand, but getting some help for yourself as well would be beneficial..
Shirlstars has done some excellent diaries on spiritual/metaphysical exercises that may be of help to you and your wife..Check them out..
If you ask her she will no doubt give you some more specifics as to what you can do it that regard.
Be very careful about enabling, that is a danger..
I’ll let shirl dispense some wisdom here, ok shirly..
First of all, I would like to dispel the “wise-woman” myth that is being floated around here. I appreciate being thought of in that context, however, if things I share with you all feel to have some wisdom, that is wonderful. But the things that each of you say from your experience and from your hearts I see as wisdom. So all of us have wisdom to share no matter what our experiences, our circumstances, our ages, or our education levels. It’s a bit like porn, we all know it when we see it.
Next, Super, as one who was also sexually abused/misused as a child I understand how deeply it affects your wife. Get her some help. No one is really strong enough to get through this by themselves, even with your loving assistance. And I mean no disrespect for all of you who have had the same experiences and yet managed to make it so far in your lives. If she has suicidal tendencies, as she apparently does, get her a very good, caring, female therapist (not a psychiatrist), preferably one who has some considerable experience dealing with this specific situation. Save her life and save your family’s mental/emotional health. Get her some help sooner rather than later.
That is my best advice. If money is an issue, the next best thing is to hope your local Mental Health Agency can offer some assistance. But please, get her some professional help. It doesn’t mean she is sick, or mentally ill, it means she needs some tools to help her understand her place in the world. Some tools that will allow her to deal in a positive and productive way with all that is overwhelming her.
You are an amazing guy, father, husband. But you can’t do it for her.
Blessings and I will hold you in my heart and thoughts,
Shirl
Shirl, thanks for your wisdom. Just so you and Diane know there have been years of hospitalizations, inpatient and out, interventions, all kinds of experimenting with different kinds of therapies, intense counseling, and meds. The situation is now pretty stable. She sees two different counselors a week. One a woman, her favorite and she seems to trust her which is a huge step forward. She is also taking two different kinds of anti-depressants that look to be working well.
I brought this all up not as a plea for help with my wife per se, but to be honest in this diary about my family situation because I was asking for advice with by daughters and clearly this part of our life makes raising them that much more difficult and if I had been really honest I would have made all of this known from the get go. But I’m new here and I wasn’t comfortable enough yet to start dropping bombshells. By the time I did feel comfortable, the diary slipped off into diary heaven.
Thank you for all your help. It’s sure comforting to see how fast people rush to one anothers side around here, and how much wisdom is available to those who seek it.
BTW, as far as I’m concerned, any woman who imparts wisdom is a wise woman.
One more thing Shirl. When I started this diary and asked for advice, I thought about which women at this site might reply to me. Then I remembered that I read in another diary, I can’t remember which right now, that you were adopted and I thought that might somehow prevent you from replying, and that made me sad, believe it or not. Just so you know.
You are such a neat guy, super. Let me say that being adopted was one of the best things that ever happened in my life. I didn’t offer advice to you about your daughters for a couple of reasons. I have no children, so as much as I might theorize about it, you had many fabulous mothers respond to you here. . .and I was very impressed with how receptive you have been.
I could have offered some opinion from my perspective as a daughter, as a child, but times were so very different in the 1940’s and 1950’s. . .there were just so many topics that were taboo, and many if not most fathers were pretty absent a real personal relationship with their children, especially their daughters. I know many here have had a different experience of that. I didn’t ever bond with my own father. He was too serious all the time for my temperament. He was very black and white about things. He seldom showed emotions or talked about loving by saying the words. We were from different values worlds and we never came to a meeting of the minds, hearts or souls until I was 16 and he was deathly ill in the hospital and refusing to die. He was 57 then had the first intestinal bypass ever written in medical journals that a patient survived. The bypass was due to blood clots all along his small intestines that turned gangrenous before exploratory surgery discovered what was going on. He was left with 6″ of SI hooked to the LI and 12″ hooked to the stomach. No one had ever survived such a massive loss of SI. . .He lost 34 1/2 feet of his ability to digest food. He lived to the age of 84. (we don’t give in or give up easily in my family ;o) ).
Don’t misunderstand me here. He was one of the finest, most moral, dependable, and accomplished men I have ever known. We just never were able to have a relationship. And It may have been my inability to do that, that prevented it.
So I felt I really didn’t have a lot to offer to the already wonderful replies you were receiving. And frankly, you sound like a pretty terrific dad to me!
Bless you and your family. Know that you are doing the best that you can and that is all any of us are capable of doing. I hold you all in my heart in a special place.
Big Hugs
Shirl
Well now I can close this diary because you have just made it complete.
I’m sure no one here thinks any less of you. In fact, I think even more highly of you. Some men would say “adios” to a severely depressed person and not think another thing about it. Yet you stand by your wife, thick or thin. It gives me goosebumps.
I hope that she is getting the treatment she needs to overcome her depression. I also hope that you and your kids have gotten some counseling to deal with such a situation. To know that this isn’t your or your kids’ fault. Your wife has a medical condition brought on by the abuse. Not by you or your kids. She has demons she needs to exorcise.
This is nothing to be ashamed of.
{{{{{Supersoling}}}}}
If you see this reply I just want to thank you for your kind words and encouragement. I’ve had a pretty shitty day today so I’m not really up to giving your comment the reply it deserves right now, but I’m sure at some time in the future I’ll get another opportunity.
Thanks so much
I always knew that my dad loved me and that he was proud of me. Looking back at my teenage and early adult years, I think that my parents’ love and affirmation had a huge amount to do with keeping me from straying too far or permanently from what they taught me (except for becoming a Democrat, of course ;)). I didn’t need to look to boys or other externalities for self-worth and never felt I should settle for some loser–I knew I was worthy of better than that. Even when I really messed up, I knew that he loved me and had faith that I would make better choices next time. Girls that have that bone-deep certainty of their dad’s love are way less likely to look for it from someone or something else. This doesn’t mean you should never hold them to high standards, though. If you don’t expect the best from them, how will they learn to expect it of themselves? Doing things that have made my dad especially proud has given me some of the best moments of my life. He’s gone now, but his standards of integrity and generosity are still things I think about and strive to uphold.
As a woman whose dad disappeared when she was 12 and as a mom who raised a very rebellious daughter mainly as a single parent, I have just two words of advice for you: be there.
I was very challenging at times. I think that it is important to keep in mind that how they will act at times as teenagers has no bearing on what kind of adults they will be! It is perfectly okay to expect accountability with “freedom”. I got what every parent wishes on their challenging children, I got a daughter who is just like how I was. I keep my main goal in mind with her, and that is the strong happy healthy woman I see that she will become….I do all that I can to make sure that she makes it to all of the birthdays in between now and that time. As parents we have agreed that it is perfectly okay if the “boy/friends” are a bit afraid of my husband! You guys know what the guys are thinking, and the mom’s know that our daughters are beginning to seek affection and attention from other guys than just dad and I talk a lot about that with her. He doesn’t clean guns in front of them or anything, but he gives them the once over and asks all kinds of questions about who, what, and where. What she will look for in a guy are the things about you that have left their impression on her. Listen to what she has to say and she’ll insist on hanging out with people who will also listen to her. The first date our daughter went on scared us to death (he was a pretty scary little dude who is dealing drugs at school now) but it was a very short lived deal and it was 100% her doing and she shared all of her opinions with us and it was pleasantly reassuring.