A good segment of our community feels very strongly that the left-wing blogs should be ramping up and putting a lot of pressure on the Senate to reject Roberts, to filibuster him, and to accept any and all potential consequences.
The issue has the potential to cause a wedge, not only here at BooTrib, but throughout the Democratic party. And it isn’t happening in a vacuum. Hillary and Dean seem to be bending over backwards to make pro-lifers welcome in the party. The party cleared the field of pro-choice candidates in Pennsylvania so they could save money on a pro-life candidate they think can beat Santorum.
The party, it seems, has gone squishy on reproductive rights. My thinking on this is complicated, so bear with me.
There is a cold, calculating, and short-term issue, and there is an issue of lasting principle.
To keep this from becoming a novel, I’ll have to leave important facets out of the overall picture. I’ll try to address them in the comments.
I’ll start with the cold calculation. With the set of facts we have right now, what are our prospects of defeating this nominee?
Can we hold six of the seven democrats that are members of the Gang of Fourteen? Can we swing over any pro-choice Republicans? That is a stiff challenge. We are gathering data about Roberts’ political contributions, his limited record, his testimony at his earlier confirmation hearings, his wife’s political activities, his work for Bush during the 2000 recount, and his support for indefinite detentions, etc.
He looks like a pro-business, party insider, who is pro-life, and pro-strong executive powers. His environmental record is bad. We definitely do not want this 50 year old man to become a Supreme Court justice. But is there anything we can do to stop him?
I think we need to keep looking because what we have right now doesn’t seem like enough to persuade 51 Senators to vote against him. It doesn’t seem like we can prevent 60 Senators from voting to end debate and force an ‘up or down’ vote.
I’ll come back to the question of what we should do if we know we can’t win. Now for the principle part of the story.
The party stands for a woman’s right to choose whether or not to end her pregnancy. Right now, that right is embodied in Roe. There are other ways it might be protected, and there are better legal arguments than Roe for justifying that protection. But Roe is what we have, so we have to defend it as if it were the right itself.
The right has argued against Roe from two angles, one based in their sense of morals, and one based on Roe as a written legal opinion. The legal angle doesn’t depend on whether or not abortion is a good or bad thing. It just offers the opinion that the federal judiciary has no authority to deny the states the right to take an interest in the unborn. From their point of view, there is nothing in the Constitution that gives the Federal government the authority to impose their will over the states’ interests.
However you feel about Roe as a decision, the underlying principle of Roe is that pregnancy and a woman’s relationship with her doctor are such complicated and personal matters that the state’s intetest in protecting potential life was not absolute. Blackmun went to great lengths to explain the many compelling reasons why a woman might want to terminate her pregnancy:
Yet, Blackmun realized that aborting a fetus at a late stage of pregnancy, in particular when the fetus would be viable outside the women’s womb, is hard to decipher from infanticide.
Blackmun asserted a right to privacy protected a women’s choice to have an abortion up to the second trimester, whereupon the states could require some medical or other compelling justification. After the second trimester the state was free to regulate or proscribe abortion except for the purpose of saving a woman’s life.
In some ways it was an ingenius decision. But it has always suffered from its reliance on a principle that is not absolute.
Yet, for many the principle is absolute. In fact Roe argued that her right to privacy extended all the way through to live birth. Blackmun didn’t agree, and I think most people agree that at some ill-defined point in a pregnancy the rights of the unborn child must take precedence over any absolute right to privacy.
For example:
The right to abort upon late discovery of complications for the fetus, such as would cause a short, painful life or a life without any prospects for a rewarding existence, could be decided without regard to privacy. In other words, the right not to bring such a life into the world could be established on different grounds.
Something Blackmun didn’t dwell on is the fact that many women do not choose to become pregnant. I haven’t reread his whole history of abortion, but I don’t recall him discussing a woman’s right to refuse her husbands advances, or rape, or incest, or intimidation, or manipulation, or sex as extortion. He also didn’t mention lack of sex education, lack of availability of contraceptives, poverty, or plain impulsive behavior.
Clearly a woman does not have an affirmative obligation to use birth control. She, therefore, should not have an affirmative obligation to carry any pregnancy to term.
Blackmun also failed to get into too much detail over the different ways a women’s privacy might be violated by abortion proscriptions. Presumably, he left this out because he reserved the States right to intervene after the first trimester.
He should have dwelled on it. We might not be having this culture war if he had explained what an imposition it is to have to defend the loss of a baby (a miscarraige) before the law. He might also have mentioned what an imposition it is on law enforcement to have to investigate pregnancies that have ended prematurely.
The right to privacy really only becomes compelling when one tries to envision these investigations, and what kind of actions law enforcement would be required to take to determine guilt or innocence. It also is disturbing to think what actions women and doctors would be forced to take to protect against wrongful prosecution.
Quite aside from the technical difficulties, early miscarraige is so common and so traumatic, that it is cruel to add on a feeling of potential criminal liability. There is no way to create a law protecting first trimester pregnancies that wouldn’t create all of these problems.
Which brings me back to Roberts. Is this man going to vote to overturn Roe? There are some stong indications that he will. But it isn’t certain. He could respect 30 years of precedent, even though he doesn’t like the decision. His effort to kill off the California toads is not encouraging. It indicates a judicial philosophy that is biased against the federal government dictating to the states. It also indicates a willingness to overthrow established law on quibbling technicalites.
A second consideration is whether Bush really wants to overturn Roe, or whether he just uses the issue cynically to attract people of a lower socioeconomic class to the Republican party. Many people think Souter was chosen to prevent Roe from being overturned, and while the son is not the father, they run with the same crowd of corporate bigwigs that don’t give a whit about abortion, except as a wedge issue. Dobson may not like Roberts once he sees him on the bench.
People can express their predictions as strongly as they want, but we really don’t know the answer.
Maybe it will become clear during the hearings. I highly doubt it will become crystal clear, but it might become obvious.
It’s difficult to scream about the threat to Roe when we have no solid facts to show it is actually in great peril. But, to me, this is the problem. Most people support Roe, especially when its reasoning is carefully explained. Many more have no idea what life will be like without Roe. They might think everything will be fine, but will change their minds when they see the result. Roe should be debated openly. And yet its fate is being determined in secret. Ironically, this has been a complaint of the right for 30 years. They feel that each legislature should decide the issue, and resent it being decided for them by 9 appointed judges. So be it, it’s ironic.
If we want to scream about this judge, IMO, we should scream about Roe being decided in secret. Fuck precedent, we want this judge to explain his position on this most important issue prior to being confirmed. We don’t want anyone to vote for this guy unless he is willing to tell us what he going to do with our established rights.
We should be clear that we don’t expect judges to decide cases before they hear the evidence. But Roe is different. Roe is huge. We can demand that he tell us what he thinks about how the case was decided, without asking him to speculate about a future attempt to overturn it.
In other words, the battle is in the hearing. Our prep work is to create outrage that Roe is being decided in a hearings room but no one knows which way it is being decided. This is unacceptable.
If we can’t peel off enough votes to win, should we filibuster anyway? I’ll leave my final answer for when we reach that point. Part of it will depend on how he answers the questions. Part of it will depend on how weak Bush is. Part of it will depend on whether the GOP will go nuclear.
None of us are going to like this judge no matter what he does with Roe. But defeating him won’t prevent an even more atrocious judge from being nominated. If we want to battle for a principle, let’s battle for an open debate about the future of the Constitutional right to privacy, and right of a woman to terminate a pregnancy.
I think given Dr Deans recent announcement, you won’t need to worry about it too much longer.
DREAM!!!
That is the right wing news distorting his words… you know this isn’t the first time they have done that.
Dean was on MTP two months ago and said the same thing… the part that they intentionally forgot to mention is that Dean always says infatically that the Democratic Party believes in a woman right to choose… funny how they left that part out.
Exactly. Dean says the party must support a woman’s right to choose. He also says that we have to use language when discussing that right that does not immediately drive away people who are personally uneasy, queasy, or opposed to abortion. What he’s basically saying is that we need to frame it in terms of choice, not in terms of abortion: “we don’t like abortion any more than you do, but it must stay legal, and must be up to the pregnant woman.”
Parker, I’m glad someone else here seems to understand this. Why so many people are rushing to buy the right-wing spin on Dean, I don’t know…
to the defining issue of abortion rights and who is to be endowed with the authority to make decisions about one’s own body.
I think that, just as bin Laden is more useful to the warmongering maniacs if he’s on the loose than he would be if he were in custody, so too I believe that keeping Roe v. Wade the law of the land is more useful to the rightwing propagandists as a way of incentivizing their base. Zealots always need enemies to get excited. It’s part of their sickness. They’re simply not happy, not motivated, nor do they feel important unless they can be out there slaying dragons. And Roe is a perfect dragon for them to hunt, a concept even the most simpleminded can find a way to hate.
The Bush regime has done a superb job stringing the evangelical fascists along in order to get their support at the voting booth, and I suspect they’ll try to keep doing the same thing. If Roe were overturned the wingnuts would have a great celebration, but it wouldn’t last long, and most of their political pals would be thrown out of office not long after. So I think the Bushistas will continue playing this little charade.
Does this mean we shoud relax our vigilance? Not at all. Does it mean we shouldn’t vigorously oppose any and all who seek a position from which they might be able to overturn Roe. Absolutely not! But if we come to see that in fact the current regime has in fact little if any active interest in overturning Roe, then we might be able to make use of such knowledge to create more effective strategies for influencing the public discourse and expanding the sphere of ideas.
that we need to battle for principle and that we need to have an open and engaged debate. But finding the elected officials to participate in such a debate is the biggest problem, and the second biggest problem would be to get proper, respectful, and responsibly non-partisan MSM news coverage.
As for counting on the Dems in the gang of 14 to step up to the filibuster plate, there’s something about the idea that Lieberman, Pryor, Ben Nelson or Landrieu would in fact step up that’s so ludicrous it would be funny were it not for the tragedy of their political cowardice.
Even if we know we’ll lose the filibuster battle on Roberts we should do it anyway, on principle. The Dems will never energize their base if they keep caving in to expedience in the face of adversity. I certainly can’t enthusiastically vote for someone who puts their own self-interest and ambition before the public interest.
that we ask Roberts if he supports the substance of the rights expressed in Roe. ie. Not the decision, but its practical effect.
If he is unwilling to state before the Senate, and the public, that he will uphold those rights, whatever his opinion of the decision, he should be opposed.
The legaleze of the decision aside, does his judicial philosophy accept the legitimacy of the argument that the rights of a woman to make decisions about her own body can and should be offered protection under federal law?
How does he see the relevance of the Ninth Amendment as relates to this issue, specifically to the idea that, just because there’s no specific instruction in the constitution vis a vis privacy rights, that this isn’t grounds upon which to challenge the Roe v. Wade ruling? (See Craig Crawford’s brief article about this here.)
Let’s hope the Dems who do speak up on all this are prepared with the facts to refute the inevitable lies the Repubs will use to invoke what they already refer to as the Ginsburg Standard. They claim, (lying with impunity), that Ginsburg never answered significant questions about her position on things like abortion rights and therefore Roberts shouldn’t have to either. But that’s a lie. As Media Matters points out here,, while Ginsburg did refuse to comment on specific cases, she was very direct and forthcoming in her statements regarding abortion rights. Here’s the quote.
Nothing ambiguous about that statement.
makes our point.
We need to say forthrightly that if it comes to down to:
the rights of every American woman vs. the preference of a single nominee in how he anwsers questions, not about the law, but about those rights
we vote for the women every time.
Sorry, he must be forthright on the substance of the issue. And we should start saying that, and getting our house in order in case the “nuclear option” becomes a reality.
Here’s some thoughts of my own, in no particular order:
a) We liberals are not the majority in this country. But some of our views are. We sure don’t act like it.
b) I know “abortion” voters, I’m related to some. They are unreachable by most ordinary means. I am not convinced, however, that these “pro-life” people are as uniformly for “criminalization” as they are made out to be. Nor am I convinced that “anti-criminalization” voters are as uniformly “pro-choice” as people tend to think.
c) I think Dean’s “pro-life” move…and Markos’ “the Big Picture” piece represented profoundly bad strategy…not because we shouldn’t have a “broad coalition” and endorse any candidate we choose to…but…
d) the timing of those stands was extremely poor imo and weakened our strongest grounds for opposition to Roberts: his on the record support for the rights expressed in Roe before the Senate…further, Dean’s wording of his position made it seem like he was pandering, he came off gimmicky. Our party is pro-choice. Everybody knows that.
e) I’m pro choice. I’m a man. It’s not a “woman’s issue”…it’s an ‘everybody’ issue. Do I want to see abortion criminalized in any way? No. That’s heinous. It should be safe and legal in all fifty states. We have a majority for us on that, and thirty years of Supreme Court precedent.
Now, could I countenance different states having different policies around abortion that do not significantly alter abortion as, fundamentally, a health issue between a woman and her doctor protected by a broad privacy right? Maybe in regards to some narrow areas like education or parental notification or late term procedures, but in the current political climate we have to be very specific in how we talk about this.
And if we didn’t have the “pro-criminalization / life begins at conception” zealots on the other side, we might be able to more easily say states could have some latitude in regulating the procedure at the margins without touching the core right.
f) However, let’s face it, that’s not what the hardest core of the other side wants. They want to criminalize abortion. And we split our own liberal coalition with any compromise we make in that context….and lose some swing voters when we seem completely, and irrationally ‘hard core’ the other way.
g) Imo, our greatest fault is that we have never called the GOP out for their hypcrisy. Most of the non-evangelical GOP is not “religious” on this issue. But they pay lip service to it and never get called on it. “Criminalization” is the actual GOP position. When was the last time you heard a Dem mention this?
In sum, we are Democrats, we are pro-choice.
A candidate who is privately, or religiously opposed to abortion, is welcome to hold that view and remain a Democrat, imo. We are welcome to endorse them. But they are not welcome to advocate imposing any policy that would have the effect of fundamentally changing the federal guarantee of safe and legal abortion in all fifty states.
Further, a nominee for the Supreme Court who is not willing to clearly state that he or she will uphold the substance of the rights expressed in Roe v. Wade should be opposed.
It’s that simple. We don’t need to dither on this one. It’s like saying we’d consider voting for someone who’d overturn the substance of Brown vs. Board of Education. Nope.
We can be open to a nominee’s legal opinion on how any case was decided. We are not open, however, to someone who won’t clearly commit to protecting well-established rights that affect millions of Americans every day, and whose reversal would have the effect of throwing our nation and the federal system itself into a constitutional crisis.
Well, that’s my opinion. Talk to me. I’m not a zealot.
Deans remarks have been taken out of context.
He explicitly says that we should welcome “pro-lifers” into the party …the ones that believe also in life after birth. He also has repeated that the Democratic party is the party that protects womens right to choose.
As for as timing he has said this from the first day he took over the DNC so he is not pandering the to the Roberts debate.
I hope he comes out soon and clarifies this… Fox had a breaking announcement yesterday as though Dean went pro-life.
Newsday
That’s not the statement I would have made….and the article directly links the comment to the nomination hearings.
Like I said, if I were “on the team” I would argue that we should tell everyone right now that we intend to ask Judge Roberts for an on the record statement of support for the rights enumerated in Roe.
The substance of Roe.
If he does not support those rights, whatever his opinions in regards to the decision itself, we oppose him. And that means putting the filibuster, “gang of 14” issue to the test.
This is too big an issue for a nominee to play games with us on. And we have a very reasonable point. He can disagree with the opinion. He can’t disagree with the effective substance of it.
like we’ve come to the same conclusion.
I’ve been struggling with this one. It’s a very tough issue to tackle.
As much as I sympathize with Markos on his theory that pro-life Dems vote for Democratic majority leaders, while pro-choice Republicans vote for Bill Frist, etc…
…this is no time for that kind of logic. Right now it’s zero hour. We have to find out whether this guy will overturn Roe or not. How else can we know whether to oppose him? And if he won’t say, we’ll scare a lot of people about his intentions on both sides, we’ll raise awareness about the issue, and we’ll do the best we can to fight for reproductive rights.
And I agree that Dean and Hillary are off-key.
we are not playing with poker chips but womens lives.
And the way that the Democrats are voting in Washington the trade off is neglible since they won’t stand up to anything. What do we have to lose … a Democratic majority that votes like Republicans???
So we need to jump into action NOW!!!
What do you think of this?
inner-resting
Also, I do not understand the footnote.
But I do not trust anyone in the GOP …just because the put party over country every time…
What is clear is that a clear precise message is needed. Your argument above is fine but it can’t be said in 10 words. As much as I hate that but it is true.
We need a ten word frame.
How about:
Republicans idea of ending abortion is putting women in jail.
Republicans idea of ending abortion is putting women in jail.
Now that frames the debate:
Democrats are better than that. We believe that there is life after birth and we will strive to make this country family-friendly. We now what growing families need to raise children. They need healthcare, education and good jobs. We also believe in the prevention on unwanted pregnancies by education young women and men on prevention.
Republicans = Jail
Democrats = Freedom
I’m just trying to point out that from the point of view of Roe, and only Roe, this may be the judge we want. That is why I am not going to oppose him violently over his opposition to Roe. I want him to fess up and tell us where he stands. The principle is that we have a right to know whether our rights are about to be taken away.
This sneaky bullshit is unfair and unhealthy. I think the pro-life folks want to know too. This shit just makes everyone nervous.
KO, had the sound bite. It’s good, and on point, and non-partisan.
Then I misunderstood you…
That is why I am not going to oppose him violently over his opposition to Roe.
this is triangulation that leads strangulation…and to the deaths of many women.
I can’t call the guy out for opposing Roe if I don’t know that he does. I provided a link for your consideration. We will get nowhere by insisting he is anti-Roe with the evidence we have.
Roe is on the line, that is the point. I will talk about that with a lot of passion and energy. But I won’t call the guy anti-Roe without solid evidence.
You keep insisting that he is going to overturn Roe, but you don’t know. The people that have real power in the country and in the administration are very fond of power. They like controlling the appropriations committees and the Pentagon. They have to be aware that the polls overwhelmingly show that the public is both opposed to and unprepared for the overturning of Roe.
They have to know that they would be in for a nasty backlash if it happens. So, my suspicions cut both ways. We need to know the truth before we vote.
Did Bush ever once say that he was going to dismantle Social Security?
No, but everyone knew that was his intention.
So, why is this different?
You mean the backlash for getting the country in to an illegal war.
Phasing out overtime pay
Crippling Medicare
Record job losses
Highest rates of uninsured Americans
ENRON
Guantanamo
Abu GArib
etc. etc. etc
and he still won
what backlash are you expecting???
Social security is a decent example, in a way.
The power elite DOES want private accounts, while the wingnuts could care less. But they didn’t prepare the country for it. The polls were so bad that they couldn’t get their own party to support it. If they had pushed it through they knew they would be severely punished, so they dropped it.
In this case, the power elite already knows the country will freak out if Roe suddenly gets overturned. They’ll freak out even worse than they would if social security was privatized.
Why didn’t they pick an openly anti-Roe candidate and ram him home, using the nuclear option if necessary?
Put it this way: if I were advising the President, and I wanted to keep the ruling GOP coalition together, I would nominate a man just like Roberts. Only I’d make sure he would never overturn Roe.
In a way, they’re fucked. If they double cross the wingnuts again their whole churchified thing will start to unravel. But if they actually overturn Roe, they will suffer terribly at the ballot box.
Figuring out which bite of the apple they chose to make is harder than you think.
no we will…
you can’t fuck over 70% of your base (most Dem men are pro-choice) and not expect a backlash…
If Roberts won’t define his position unambiguously, we have to make his refusal the central obstacle to the decisionmaking process. Just like the Bush gang became responsible for the stalled process on bolton because they refused to provide documents, so too roberts will need to be made responsible for any obstacles he might erect that delay his own confirmation. We already know that during his appellate court cofirmation he refused to provide quite a bit of info, and if he does that here, and refuses to answer questions that go to philosophical perspective, the whole process of confirmation should stop dead in it’s tracks.
On a separate point. Does anyone else find the use of the term “Pro-Life” ludicrous? I’m so sick of hearing this term and of rebelling against the notion of implied goodness it’s intended to convey. Everyone, (with the possible exception of Cheney and Dobson and a few of their pals), is pro-life in some way, even if they’re only concerned with their own life. But the “pro-life” term itself is meaningless in reality. Let’s refer to the wingnut crowd as “Anti Abortion Rights” people, or “Pro-Birth” enthusiasts. Calling them “Pro-life” gives too many of them more credit for humanity than they deserve.
to write anti-choice all the time. Sometimes it suits my purposes, other times it is distracting.
I don’t go for the framing zeolot’s arguments that we have to use the correct words. Words are for conveying meaning too. Not just working on the unconscious mind.
The Republicans spend 200 million dollars per year just on framing their arguments… I’d say it has paid off.
“On a separate point. Does anyone else find the use of the term “Pro-Life” ludicrous? I’m so sick of hearing this term and of rebelling against the notion of implied goodness it’s intended to convey. Everyone, (with the possible exception of Cheney and Dobson and a few of their pals), is pro-life in some way, even if they’re only concerned with their own life. But the “pro-life” term itself is meaningless in reality. Let’s refer to the wingnut crowd as “Anti Abortion Rights” people, or “Pro-Birth” enthusiasts. Calling them “Pro-life” gives too many of them more credit for humanity than they deserve. “
I like “pro-forced birth” myself. That’s what it is, and includes the idea that they want to get rid of contraceptives.
like it
I’m not afraid of filibustering if Roberts won’t publically support the substance of the rights expressed in Roe v. Wade.
The public doesn’t much care what he thinks of the opinion. They care about what the thinks about the rights it expressed, rights we have, all of us, lived with for over thirty years now, and that were signiificantly upheld in Casey.
It is a fair question. Will Roberts go on record stating that abortion should be safe and legal in all 50 states.
If we put it that way, we should have no fear of a filibuster. Or the nuclear option. Let them.
Let them enact the nuclear option to push through somone who won’t publicly support the rights expressed in Roe.
It won’t be pretty. We should keep this very simple.
on that one until I see the ‘facts on the ground’. I won’t be neutered by the nuclear option, but I don’t want to go through that bullshit without it being framed to cause the backlash that will restore the filibuster. In your scenario it would…I think.
Best case: indictments come down on Plamegate before Labor Day. Then they will be too weak and discredited to comtemplate the nuclear option. And the judge will know he has to answer questions.
for pro-life Dems seems to have an underlying impression that women can’t do math. Once there are enough pro-lifers in the Democratic party things will shift that way.
Not only can we do math- we can do long term planning as well!
Thanks for sticking with us.
A candidate who is privately, or religiously opposed to abortion, is welcome to hold that view and remain a Democrat, imo. We are welcome to endorse them. But they are not welcome to advocate imposing any policy that would have the effect of fundamentally changing the federal guarantee of safe and legal abortion in all fifty states.
Further, a nominee for the Supreme Court who is not willing to clearly state that he or she will uphold the substance of the rights expressed in Roe v. Wade should be opposed.
It’s that simple. We don’t need to dither on this one. It’s like saying we’d consider voting for someone who’d overturn the substance of Brown vs. Board of Education. Nope.
This is what Dean has been saying. You can be “morally” against abortion all you want but this party will protect the womans right to choose.
Moreover, the party can accomodate those who are against the morality of abortion by proactively lowering the rates of abortion by enacting laws that are more family-friendly along with advocating prevention of unwanted pregnancies.
Morally anti-choice Reid has already started a movement in that area
This is not an argument based upon whether or not we no of Roberts will oppose Roe… OF COURSE HE WILL, just like Bush say it is only a little bitty private account… but we all knew it was dismantling Social Security.
I’m absolutely with kid here.
If somebody says to me, “What about this Roberts guy?” my answer is, “I want to know if he’s in favor of criminalizing abortion. Does he want the government to force women to deliver babies? Does he want women and their doctors, and any friends and family who help them get abortions, to be arrested, tried, convicted, and thrown in jail? Does he want them charged with murder, or with being accessories to murder? Does he want women who have miscarriages to have to prove they actually miscarried instead of aborted? Can you imagine the cruelty of that? And yet that’s what his right-wing supporters want. That’s what they want out of overturning Roe. That’s where the criminalization of abortion leads. If the answers to all those questions is no, then he is a more independent thinker than I believe he is and he is more of a woman’s advocate than I have any present reason to think he is. If the answer to those questions is yes, and he gets on the court, then the women in this country. . .and the men and children who love them. . . are in for a fundamentalist nightmare.”
And then I will ask them, “Do you remember the The Ceausescu regime in Romania in the 80’s?”
(A reminder about Romania: “Monthly gynecological examinations for all women of childbearing age were instituted, even for pubescent girls, to identify pregnancies in the earliest stages and to monitor pregnant women to ensure that their pregnancies came to term. Miscarriages were to be investigated and illegal abortions prosecuted, resulting in prison terms of one year for the women concerned and up to five years for doctors and other medical personnel performing the procedure. Doctors and nurses involved in gynecology came under increasing pressure, especially after 1985, when “demographic command units” were set up to ensure that all women were gynecologically examined at their place of work. These units not only monitored pregnancies and ensured deliveries but also investigated childless women and couples, asked detailed questions about their sex lives and the general health of their reproductive systems, and recommended treatment for infertility.” From:countrystudies)
There are some stong indications that he will. But it isn’t certain. He could respect 30 years of precedent, even though he doesn’t like the decision.
You need to look at the “Big Picture” no joke…
Rove clearly stated that he was bring the country back to before FDR, so far:
So, what in the past five years makes you think that they will resist overturning Roe
Then after Democrats disasterous performance in 2006 (because they haven’t learned their lesson) they will overturn the Voting Rights Acts which will again let states enact Jim Crow laws.
What is our real reasoning for not fighting… 7 turncoat Senators and a judge that is too cute.
CRIMINALIZATION
Sorry Boo, but people will not follow all of the legal-speak and Fed vs. States rights
And we definitely DO NOT want to make this a “states rights” issue with the voting Rights Act coming up in 2007… in which states could enact that only “landowners” and whites have the right to vote. Especially since there is no Constitutiona Admendment for Universal voting rights… which is the basis of the Supreme Court ruling in 2000. They did not have to recount the vote in Florida because the voters had no federal right to vote… this was a “states right”.
What I don’t understand is that right off of a victor Bush was very strong and attacked Social Security… WE FOUGHT BACK now and won since he hasput it on the back shelf. Now, he is in the weakest postion of his entire terms, low polling, HUGE SCANDAL, bad war… and we say we can’t win because the guy is too cute and an asshole like Lieberman says he won’t filibuster.
There is another court and that is of public opinion and there is where we win… we tell people that this will mean the CRIMINALIZATION OF ABORTION to which I say that 98% of women would be strongly opposed.
You never answered my last post in the other thread.
but.. but…
He is sooo cute… we could never beat him…
The Democratic party is headed for an historic split. Starting with Goldwater in the 1960s, continuing through the Reagan revolution in the 1980s, and culminating in the takeover of all three branches of government in the 2000s, the Republican party realigned itself to include huge numbers of conservative labor and fundamentalist Christians.
The Democratic party must undertake a comparable realignment in response. The coalition of labor, minorities, and liberals built by FDR in the 1930s is over.
This will happen either by a conscious effort to realign, as I had hoped might happen under Dean, or by way of a split between liberals and the current DLC-controlled party elite. I suspect the latter.
Basically the question is whether liberals can continue to support a party that does not have a liberal platform. Pro-choice, anti-war, progressive taxation supporting, environmentalist single payer health supporters do not get airtime in the current party.
Basically the question is whether liberals can continue to support a party that does not have a liberal platform.
I would argue the real question is:
… whether Democrats can continue to support a party that does not have a Democratic platform but a Republican one.
Basically the question is whether liberals can continue to support a party that does not have a liberal platform.
Why is this even a question? Why should liberals support a platform which in no way reflects their values and vote for men who clearly despise them?
Why should minorities and women support governing principles which relegate and codify their permanent second class status?
I think you’re right, and I think it’s already happening. ’06 & ’08 are going to be nasty, I think. I think there are far more of us outside the DLC corporate elite, and that the time is right for a populist Democrat to change the party. If the party continues to demonize and attack people who see that that change is necessary, then the party will split.
I don’t know if I have any comments to make that will materially advance the debate but I did want to thank everyone for the atmosphere that makes the debate/conversation possible. I’ve read more and found more food for thought on the issues here than anywhere else.
Next point, and question: If the right to privacy is what the right wants overturned, and if overturning Roe would be a bad political move, is anyone else getting the uneasy feeling that they will move to criminalize/ recriminalize homosexuality instead? Because that’s my nightmare scenario. Tell me it won’t happen? Please?
And, as someone in the lower socio-economic class/ caste-there are a lot of people I know, work with, and so on who are pro choice than anti choice. More people seem to feel the government should just stay out of our personal lives than not. This regards sexual preference and birth control as well as abortion. Don’t know what the stats are, just a very unscientific observation.
To focus exclusively on one case decided in 1973 is to lose sight of the history leading to that case. My 81-year-old-mother still gets mad, frustrated, and emotionally crushed remembering a neighbor who died from a “back-alley” abortion in the ’30s. I still remember girls who went on a “vacation” to Mexico in the ’60’s; “abortion” doctors threatened with arrest; and as above in Griswold, State intrusion into a married couple’s bedroom.
“HERE, you see, it takes all the running YOU can do, to keep in the same place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!” [Through the Looking Glass].
My daughter reminded me of a possible parallel:
In 1999, I was helping an anti-whaling group and discussions about presidential nominees began, but only in relation to which candidate had spoken for or against whaling.
Al Gore came out for the Makahs’ right, under their treaty with the U.S., to go whaling.
The vast majority of the group condemned Gore.
Someone got Bill Bradley on record as being opposed to the whale hunt. That was a big deal.
Zoom forward. Gore v. Bush. Most of the anti-whaling folks refused to vote for Al Gore because he’d supported the Makah hunt.
Although this was an issue to which I’d devoted hundreds and hundreds of hours, it was instantly clear that Gore would step up environmental protections … vastly more important, in the long run, than the whaling issue for the survival of all species worldwide.
Then I got lectures about how there was no difference between the Democratic and Republican parties … etc.,etc.
The dumb bunnies — yes, they ARE dumb bunnies — voted for Bush or Nader. Even WORSE, got in a huff and BAD-MOUTHED Al Gore whenever and in whatever venue they could.
Now we have a president who is decimating environmental law and agencies.
No SINGLE ISSUE — whaling or abortion — should hijack political common sense and how people vote.
and from someone who is usually so level-headed.
You’re comparing a fight over whales to a fundamental question about civil liberties?!?
>>shakes head<<
I think the parallel is obvious, and apt.
really? A question over whether or not women have the full and complete right to determine their own destiny is akin to a fight over treaty rights?
Women’s health is a much more fundamental issue. I agree that the people who reacted that way to the whaling issue WAY over-reacted, but no one would EVER make that comparison talking about race, for example. Why is women’s autonomy not utterly fundamental as a Democratic Party value? It’s a much bigger issue than a fight over treaty rights.
It’s a parallel, not an equivalency. Of course the whaling issue is orders of magnitude lower than the abortion issue, as I am sure Susan also feels. ‘Nuff said, Susan can clarify if she feels the need.
You’re in fighting mode today, arent’ you? 🙂 You should stay away from DailyKos; it’s bad for you.
LOL …
yup, I do have my dukes up, don’t I?
Sorry.
The mash fest for that dreamy Judge Roberts just sent me ’round the bend this week.
I see she meant it as a parallel.
However, isn’t it time for the party to EARN trust, a trust which they’ve broken repeatedly? Activists on the left worked VERY hard in ’04, and yet they are STILL getting blamed and attacked for every loss. It gets old, and after a while you just say “you don’t want me, then fine, I’ll go.” This is a serious problem, and I don’t think the problem lies with disaffected voters.
They could start to earn my trust by being very tough on Roberts. TrueBlueMajority had some interesting ideas about how to do it (though I disagree w/ blue’s assertion that Roe is “lost” … though it may be rendered ineffective). They would further gain my trust if they were as quick to tell Nelson, Liebermann and Pryor to shut up as they are to tell Durbin.
No argument here — I’m sure you’re disappointed. 🙂 — just because I haven’t worked out what I think is the best way to handle the Roberts nom.
I’m reading some VERY good points here, including yours, which make me doubt my first inclination, which was against filibustering.
being very tough on Roberts
Just remember in today’s Dem party this must be strictly defined. Otherwise you could get that peculiar and nauseating Biden toughness which consists of spouting off to the cameras and then voting to confirm.
good point.
and I don’t have a lot of faith in them.
Sad that the abandonment of Durbin happened so publically, since he could have been our strongest voice (he voted against Roberts last time) but now I wonder if he’ll be too careful.
Sick of the whole mess.
You missed the point of my post, sadly.
I was pointing out that focus on a sole issue — whaling, CAFTA, abortion, whatever – for those to whom it means EVERYTHING, is dangerous.
I was providing an example of how caring solely about one issue can actually harm the objectives of those intensely involved in that one issue.
The anti-whaling people were willing to sabotage environmental laws just to spite Gore’s view on one instance of whaling (not worldwide whaling, which is vastly more destructie to whales, and which he supports U.S. law on).
It was ridiculous.
Especially since the Democratic party and Howard Dean have zero intention of weakening abortion rights, but wish to be more inclusive.
Poltiics involves a great deal of compromise. Just like marriage and family.
For instance, I’m having it out with a group of “progressives” on the Wash. state DFA list. They’re intent on bashing Sen. Maria Cantwell into oblivion, and are backing a Green Party interloper in the primary against her in 2006. Yes, she voted for CAFTA. Yes, she voted to confirm Negroponte. But she also voted against Gonzales and fought hard to make Enron financially liable for its gouging of West Coast energy consumers.
They talk CAFTA CAFTA CAFTA all the time. Okay, I don’t like it either. But am I willing to add another Republican vote in the U.S. Senate just to spite Cantwell for her vote — which, by the way, she explains she felt compelled to do because the east half of Washington state is dependant on CAFTA-type regulations. And, it’s also because she is a first-term senator, and subsequently has to toe the line a bit. Just like Obama is doing.
But nothing I say can make them see that their public bashing of Cantwell and their support for a Green Party crossover to the Democratic primary will have a very adverse effect on Cantwell, who barely won in 2000.
They’re stubborn. And I’m stubborn on the need to focus on the big picture. Namely getting a Democratic majority in Congress and a Democrat in the WH.
Spell check is my friend.
and what is keeping Cantwell from voting against CAFTA… it takes two to tangle.
Perhaps I am mistaken, but I always felt that elected officials should represent the people who voted for them.
Who is Cantwell representing with her vote?
As I said in my post, she feels that she also needs to represent the east side of the state — which, geographically, is over half the state.
She comes from the west side, and she was a millionare software executive in Seattle, so that automatically makes her suspect to people on the east side. She needs to shore up support there too to win statewide.
Since she won by an extremely close margin in 2000, and she’s not the most charismatic person, she undoubtedly will have a very tough fight in 2006.
Further, the GOP has brought in the chairman of Safeco, who just quit to run against her. He has vast wealth and connections with everyone who also has vast wealth.
Once she wins again, in time, she’ll be able to take more progressive views. Patty Murray has done that as she’s won reelection, on more and more issues.
So you are saying that east side voters want CAFTA to come and take their jobs?
This is my point… she is taking orders from this parties biggest single issue group and that is the corporations.
I agree with you entirely, Parker.
You’re correct that she is heavily influenced by corporations … btw, the east side of the state is primarily agriculture, which depends very heavily on ezports, etc. From wheat to hops, from apples to cherries, from potatoes to tomatoes…. I grew up in eastern Washington state.
When I was a girl, the east side, asparagus was a huge crop. All of the asparagus farms have dried up because of imports. But, I don’t want to get sidetracked into the issues of farming, CAFTA, etc.
Again: I agree wholeheartedly with you. You and I are on the same track.
But, we can’t afford to lose one more Democratic vote in the U.S. Senate and, in fact, we desperately need to gain seats. Ditto the House.
We have to do this for, at the very least, the kinds of judges who will be confirmed.
When we gain back those majorities, we can go after them on the rest because they’ll weather our beatings better and won’t be so vulnerable — which actually means they’ll have more ability to listen to us!
I agree with you too…
I think the problem you are having is the “way” people are fighting.
She would certainly get more votes of the est side if she would represent them and fight for their rights…
However, I do not know the details and can not make judgements… but the problem I have is the notion that our representative should have no responsiblity for their actions.
And the sadder part is the corporations will fund both sides until it gets what it wants …therefore the only viable action would be for her to actual represent the people of the whole state and win…
Slightly off topic, but in Oregon, we have a Democratic Senator who voted for CAFTA too. Many Dems are up in arms about it. However, Senator Wyden is one of the most liberal Senators in Washington, and reliably votes the right way the overwhelming majority of the time. I don’t care for his vote on CAFTA, but he’s been an “out” free trader since the 70s and is at least consistent.
He also gets up to 55% of the vote on the east side of Oregon–which went to Bush by over 20 points in most places. He shows up there, he listens, and he tries to represent their interests (agriculture, logging, ranching) as well as those of us urban liberals in Portland.
Politics IS the art of compromise. I’ve had to learn that, even if I don’t always like it. Politicians (or their staffs) will listen to you, though. Call their offices and ask for an explanation of votes that bother you.
What a nice post. Wyden seems very thoughtful and intelligent.
He also gets up to 55% of the vote on the east side of Oregon–which went to Bush by over 20 points in most places.
That is amazing! That’s unusual, I’d guess, for most Democratic senators.
Your eastern part of the state mirrors ours in politics, economy, population, geography and temperature (!).
It’s terrific that Wyden can serve so many people in his state, and that you have a flexible attitude about him.
Taking divisive public stands against “single issue” voters and talking “big tent” incessantly in the run up to the Senate confimation hearings about Roberts….is a grave, grave mistake.
We need to stand together at this point.
The abortion debate is driven by single issue voters on the other side.
Think about that. It’s true. It means something.
The Democratic Party is for women’s rights. As a function of that we, all of us, standing together, will defend a woman’s right to choose as a federally protected civil right, enunciated in Roe and upheld in Casey, not because those cases were perfectly argued but simply because the substantive underlying value, the right to control one’s own body is fundamental.
Choosing this moment to belittle and mischaracterize abortion rights advocates, and to call them “single issue” is extraordinarily wrong headed and ill-timed.
We need to stand together.
I didn’t mean to do that, KO. But I’ve seen a bit of stridency by some of the spokespeople on TV, and that doesn’t play well …
I like Booman’s approach of reaching out through the hearing process, and playing it by ear.
susan…
with all due respect… they way we won on Social Security …and we did win and should pat ourselves on the back was to be strident and in the face.
There were rallies, we went to THEIR Townhall meetings, there was the successful BlogPac “There is no crises” etc…
So, I am a bit confused at this wait and see attitude… Bush never said he was dismantling Social Security he just want to open these itty bitty investment accounts… I mean what is the harm in that.
To see everyone now “waiting for Godot” is unnerving.
Namely getting a Democratic majority in Congress and a Democrat in the WH.
The “Big Picture” and the reality is that fucking over the base leads to the furtherest path to Congress and the WH.
It can’t be any simpler than that. People vote with their hearts and not their minds. YOu can ask people to rationalize that supporting a person they know will not support them in Washington is a “good thing”… sorry it ain’t gonna happen.
Kerry only got as close as he did because people were scare to shit about Bush… now that it is happened there is not much the Dems can frighten the base with anymore to vote “just for the d“… ESPECIALLY now when they see that the Democrats are throwing overboard the last vestages of the Democrat platform.
As you see in Washington… I think that there are going to be a lot more place the the Dems will turn to a third party because this party no longer wants to support them… that is “THE BIG PICTURE”.
I think I understood what you meant, but I think women’s freedom is a fundamental thing, like full enfrancisement for ALL Americans. It’s not just a “single issue,” but should be a defining difference between the parties.
Of course, I know your CAFTA friends would say the same thing about fair trade. It is a problem, but I think it arises from the belief that the Dems are less-than-committed to their base than they are to lobbying. Why compromise if you don’t believe you’ll be rewarded later for your faith and sacrifice?
This is a fundamental problem for the party.
Hijack????
All of this was done in the name of corporations who don’t even vote for this party but funds our polliticians to keep their mouths shut.
Those are the only hikackers I see terrorising the Democratic PArty.
I didn’t say Gore lost on the whaling issue. I said that people who should have known better voted against him.
He carried Washington state anyway.
My post was NOT about outcome. It was about how these people voted against their own best interests.
Postscript: They haunted Gore at every rally in Washington state — screaming “whale killer” at him and holding up signs so that they’d show up on TV. Again, this did not affect the outcome, but — most ironically — these people just marginalized themselves more and they abdicated focus on environmental pollution as the major factor in declining whale populations and the health of the ocean in general.
P.P.S.: I’ll debate this further as long as we use my analogy as a building block and don’t pick at minor points.
My second and third points are most relevant. Finally the Democratic PArty had all of its eggs in one basket with Kerry and instead of galvinising the base they kept out votes hostage. They decided that this was the most opportunie time to shift the party to the right…because out hands were tied behind out backs in regards to “The most important election of our lifetime”
remember that…
Why it was so imortant because it was to decide the makeup of the SCOTUS for the next fifty years…
so excuse me if I get a little pissed off that people are saying that it is over before it even started.
You want to talk about a bitter pill to swallow…
As I said all so-called single issue group supported Kerry and as I remember when Kerry made his “gaffe” about nominating anti-choice judges to the federal bench it was NARAL who ran into the line of fire to shield him for the ire of the masses.
Corporations are this parties biggest single issue interloper… nothing gets passed if they are against it.
I’m sympatico.
And, I’ve said to more than a few shocked people that, if they run Kerry again in 2008, I just might vote for Nader. (Might as well, I think cynically to myself, because Kerry will lose.)
But, for now, I’m just praying that in 2006 we can keep both of our Democratic female senators in Washington state.
And I’m hoping that we can pick up a couple Senate seats. It’ll be a start.
You seem very level headed… perhaps you should talk to her. She has a choice either lose with the way she is going now or fight and take the east side of the state by protecting their livelihoods.
It is futile to keep asking Democrats to supprt and pay for candidates that refuse to represent them in Washington.
She really does represent Democrats in many fine ways. She’s been a fierce advocate for electric customers who got screwed by Enron, and has promoted the findings of the Snohomish Counthy prosecutors — when they managed to unearth more audio recordings of Enron traders bragging about how they were fucking over old ladies.
Then there were her actions on a human rights matter that most of us know about here at Booman and at DKos: Amina, the young woman in Yemen who was almost executed for supposedly killing her husband, and tortured into confessing. I called so many officials, including the State Dept. (several times), Patty Murray’s office, and Cantwell’s office. I received a personal letter from an official in the State Dept. who told me that Maria Cantwell’s office had asked him to check into this human rights issue and to assure me that the State Dept. was doing what it could. Cantwell’s office — without constant pressure from me — I called once and e-mailed them once — took charge and made sure the State Dept. knew.
I have great hopes for her. And I just hope we can keep her in office. The Safeco CEO GOP candidate is a horrible alternative. But with his naturally built-in fundraising capabilities, he’ll give her the fight of her life.
But still it seems like the only person hurting Cantwell’s reelection chances is Cantwell… she must be accountable and responsible for her votes…saying that the GOPer is worse is no excuse.
From what you say the only person who could have avoided this is Cantwell and she refuses even though the GOPers in her state would have praised her for it. That is what REAL “centrist” are suppose find the middle between the Dems and the GOP…not this phony “centrism” which is really out right corporatism.
As I said before the only real hijacker in this party are the corporations who constantly hijack the party for their single issues which are usually the farest from what the majority of the base wants.
Don’t get me wrong they hijacked the GOP too, but at least the GOP was smart enough to give their base redmeat…ie wingnuttery and so-called moral issues… the Dems on the other hand expect the same loyalty from their base but refuse to give anything… then they wonder why they lose.
The best definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. As you pointed out with Gore… he pandered to the wrong people and the base would not stand by him,,, so why on earth do you think if you play THE SAME strategy the miraculously the base is going to change… that is insanity.
How many times do we need to get our teeth kicked in by play to the other guys base or none and just to the corporations… when is this party going to get a clue IT DOESN’T WORK!!! IT NEVER WORKED!!! and IT NEVER WILL. Is it so difficult to understand… do you really think that this time people are going to cut through the triangulations that voting for a shitty Dem is better than the shittier GOP… ??? IT amazes me… then the party has the nerve to blame the base.
So, keep the same strategy… if Cantwell loses it is her own damn fault not the bases… she knows what they want and yet refuses to give it to them… INSANITY.
Equating people who voted for Nader with people who voted for Bush leaves me just about speechless. I’m really getting tired of defending my vote for Nader against that kind of mentality and won’t even bother to answer such a simplistic and childish label as “dumb bunnie”. Unfuckingbelievable.
Anyone who holds on to the naive notion that somehow Bush would nominate a judge who wouldn’t be an extremist, is a lost cause as far as I’m concerned. Bush doesn’t do moderate. Period. He has proven over and over again without exception, that he is intent on turning this country into a fascist state.
Anyone who takes the position that fighting the nomination of Roberts isn’t smart because we can’t win should just step aside and let the real liberals in this country fight for your rights. Win or lose, Roberts needs to be challenged vigorously from the start. The last five years give me all the evidence I need to know that he is anti-choice, which is the same thing as anti-woman, anti-human rights. If they don’t fight this time, what position are they going to be in when Rehnquist retires? I’m tired of politicians who lack courage and backbone, continually kicking the ball down the road, believing they are conserving their strength to fight another day when the conditions are better. The fact is that everytime we give them a pass, our position gets weaker and weaker. When will they get it through their thick fucking skulls that what we want most is for someone, anyone, to make a FUCKING STAND. The future is now.
BTW Susan, if Gore had spoken out with half the passion in 2000 as he does now, he would have had my vote, hands down. Now he has nothing to lose, but it’s too late. I needed today’s Al Gore back then when it really mattered. That’s the fundemental problem with most politicians on the democratic side. There are millions and millions of votes out there for the taking, if only they would have the courage to speak the truth. I’m not holding my breath.
I didn’t equate Nader voters with Bush voters. I said they voted for Bush or Nader instead of Gore, who has a longime history of environmental efforts and writings.