Update [2005-7-25 15:43:13 by susanhu]: Below the fold, Larry Johnson and Pat Lang answer my question about the London shootnig.
There are natural relationships — correlations — between “shoot-to-kill policies” and civilian anxiety, fear and, in no time, hatred and more attacks.
- “Shoot-to-Kill Policy to Remain” – BBC, July 24, 2005
- “UK shoot-to-kill policy draws fire” – Mail & Guardian, South Africa, July 25, 2005:
“Now public trust in the police in ethnic communities, which holds a key to identifying terrorists, has understandably been badly shaken,” The Guardian said in an editorial.
“It was silly for Jack Straw, the Foreign Secretary, to deny yesterday [Sunday] that this was not a serious setback for the police.”
There are countless apt examples of the consequences — or “blowback” — of such policies. Today’s L.A. Times (sub. free) features a correspondent’s story, “Civilian Deaths Turn Iraqis Against U.S.”
Shots to the Heart of Iraq
Innocent civilians, including people who are considered vital to building democracy, are increasingly being killed by U.S. troops.
Three men in an unmarked sedan pulled up near the headquarters of the national police major crimes unit. The two passengers, wearing traditional Arab dishdasha gowns, stepped from the car.
At the same moment, a U.S. military convoy emerged from an underpass. Apparently believing the men were staging an ambush, the Americans fired, killing one passenger and wounding the other. The sedan’s driver was hit in the head by two bullet fragments.
The soldiers drove on without stopping.This kind of shooting is far from rare in Baghdad, but the driver of the car was no ordinary casualty. He was Iraqi police Brig. Gen. Majeed Farraji, chief of the major crimes unit. His passengers were unarmed hitchhikers whom he was dropping off on his way to work. (Emphasis mine.)
There are hundreds of articles on the London shooting of an innocent Brazilian electrician, including a NYT piece, “Regrets, but No Apology, in London Subway Shooting,” July 25, 2005.
BELOW, with a POLL: What does Middle East and intelligence expert Col. Patrick Lang — writing at Larry Johnson’s blog — think of the London shooting? And what of a policy that says the only way to stop a suicide bomber is to “destroy his brain instantly, utterly.”
Update [2005-7-25 15:43:13 by susanhu]:
I asked both Larry Johnson and Patrick Lang to comment on the London shooting. Here are their replies:
Susan
The Police and Security services of Israel are largely, “manned” with Jewish and Druze citizens of the state. Their methods reflect their sense of alienation from the Palestinians. In both interrogation methods and a bias toward shooting “early and often” their sense of “separation” from them is evident.
The British police should consider that reality before accepting Israeli methodology uncritically.
There is also the possibillity of the use of the “dead man’s switch.”*
Patrick Lang
……………
Susan,
The fear factor leads to poor decision making. I still don’t
understand the rules of engagement on this shooting. If they shot because they thought he had a bomb I’d want some stand off. It is also not clear whether they identified themselves or not. This will produce blowback that will make it more difficult to react in the future when they need to. I’m with Pat that the Israeli methods are counterproductive generally.
LJ
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Footnote: I looked up the term that Pat used — “dead man’s switch” — at Wikipedia. Among the many uses for the term is this: “Dead man’s switch devices have also been used in suicide bombing, to trigger the explosive if the bomber is shot or overpowered. This is a fail-deadly mechanism, rather than a fail-safe mechanism.”
___________________________
On July 23, Pat Lang (bio) — who testified Friday at the Senate/House Democratic “Hearing on Security Implications of Revealing Covert Agent’s Identity” — wrote a commentary at Larry Johnson’s blog, No Quarter:
“LONDON – The man shot and killed on a subway car by London police in front of horrified commuters had nothing to do with this month’s bombings on the city’s transit system, police said Saturday in expressing their regrets.” (Yahoo News)
Well, he COULD have….. Maybe it is a good idea that the British police are normally not armed. This should do wonders for the tourist trade in London.
Another piece of this story says that he was shot under “police observation.” Three in the head while a couple of cops are kneeling on you is pretty close “observation.”
The British police are reputed to have been getting training and doctrinal advice from the Israelis lately. Good idea. It has worked so well for the Israelis.
Pat Lang
Every article I’ve seen on the shooting refers to the training that “teams” of London police have received in Israel. Today’s NYT story says:
Portraying the working environment of his police officers as “terrifying,” he said that “there is no point shooting at somebody’s chest, because that is where the bomb is likely to be.”
Instead, for the first time, police used special aim-for-the head tactics under a plan adopted after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks in the United States. The plan is described on the official London police Web site as a four-stage “coordinated response to suicide attacks.”
The police declined to discuss the guidelines used, but they are based partly on those used by Israel in stopping bombing suspects.
Lord Stevens, Sir Ian’s predecessor as the London police commissioner, wrote in an opinion piece in Sunday’s News of the World that he had sent teams for training to Israel and other countries hit by suicide bombers. There, he said, he had learned that, “There is only one sure way to stop a suicide bomber determined to fulfill his mission: destroy his brain instantly, utterly.”
Here’s a fascinating bit of history about “Bobbies” and the use of weapons — and the very difficult dilemma faced by today’s London police:
Blair said: “It is drawn on the experience from other countries including Sri Lanka.”
A small minority of police patrolling Britain’s cities and villages carry firearms.
Just 2 060 of Greater London’s 31 000 police officers have guns.
Three hundred and fifty of them in the Metropolitan’s plice’s elite S019 special operations unit are especially concerned by what Blair called “a shoot to kill in order to protect policy”.
But it is a far cry from the notion of policing by consent that early 19th century Home Affairs minister Robert Peel advocated when he created the police constables who gained their nickname of “Bobbies” from him.
Although practice varied between regions, apart from a period between 1884 and 1936, British police were allowed little more than a truncheon on routine patrol. Revolvers were kept under lock and key for exceptional events.
A wave of killings and record levels of gun crime in Britain, especially London, in the late 1990s — despite some of the toughest gun laws in the world — brought about more routine use of armed police in recent years.
According to senior officers, guns also brought a new challenge to British police, and the new rules of engagement against defiant suicide bombers have added to the pressure.
“It is a huge ethical dilemma and it takes special quality of individual to put themselves in that situation,” said Ken Jones, head of a committee dealing with terrorism for the Association of Chief Police Officers.
“This is a new world for us. We have been talking about this for some years, but it is now an operational reality on the streets of the United Kingdom. We have dreaded this day,” he added.
– Sapa-AFP – Mail & Guardian, So. Africa, July 25, 2005
I’m very disturbed that the British are adopting Israeli policies. I firmly believe this will escalate the number of attacks in the UK.
…adopting Israeli policies.
I’m ashamed to say that I thought the London police were adopting LAPD tactics when I first heard of the shooting.
Huh. I’ll be darned. Why on earth would you think THAT???!!!
The more I read about this the angrier I get, anyone with
vaguely middle eastern features is now fair game? Actually, anyone, it’s the same logic as “enemy combatant”-he looked like an enemy combatant so….proof? We need no proof. Although, given my druthers as to being shipped to Gitmo and being shot in the head, I’d pick the later. The outrage is innocent people have to even worry about this. I keep wondering if it’s total ineptitude or deliberate, the instigating of hatred? I hope it’s ineptitude but I just can’t rule out anything, no matter how low, with the people we have in charge.
posted at Daily Kos
Good diary susan. I am quite disturbed at the way things are being handled in England, Iraq, and the world, et. al.
I have had a few instant message chats with my friend Diva, and it seems situation is ever more desperate there, every day..
Her mood since the election has just gone down and she does not laugh anymore when we are chatting…
I don’t know how anyone could manage to live and thrive in Iraq today, and they are all trapped there.
FYI she want to go to Kuwait, but fears she won’t be able to get through border as if you are a single women under 45 you have to have a guardian to pass through the border with. It all gets very complicated.
Oh, I’m so glad you’ve reconnected with your friend, Diane!
Let’s pray she can get out.
Absolutely not. The British government has been droning on about how retribution against Muslims is not acceptable, but it’s ok to shoot any brown people on sight if someone thinks they’re acting suspiciously. How could they not see that this will also put their police in jeopardy… especially the unarmed ones? Shoot first or be killed. Not to mention that this will give potential terrorists one more reason to bomb and kill. Absolutely stupid policy. I just saw Tony Blair issue a left handed apology that consisted of half a sentence. Oh yeah, we’re sorry, BUT, blah blah blah. Bullshit. If there had actually been an incident where a suicide bomber detonated his bomb because he was being chased, even then I would not agree to a shoot to kill policy.
http://tinyurl.com/eyoj8
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~ Cross-posted from my diary ~
War on Terror and the US Invasion of Iraq was strongly advocated and supported by Likud and PM Sharon of Israel.
The US Forces use military tactics for urban warfare – entry in Baghdad March 2003 – and the repulsive demolition of the city of Fallujah, identical to Israeli military tactics used in occupied Gaza and West Bank territories.
This is general knowledge of the Iraq War watcher and the reason the insurgents have become succesfull in Iraq: president Bush is feeding the beast called terror. Take a moment to google for some info —
Shares Lessons Learned Fighting Terrorists
◊ Fallujah Success Capitalized on IDF Know-How
Army and Marine Corps forces that battled terrorist insurgents in the Iraqi cities of Fallujah and Mosul employed urban warfare tactics gleaned from the combat experience of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF).
In the last two years, hundreds of U.S. military personnel have trained in the Negev desert at Israel’s Adam counter insurgency urban warfare training facility. Meanwhile, the U.S. military has completed the construction of a number of simulated Arab villages at the U.S. Army’s Joint Readiness Training Center (JRTC) at Fort Polk, Louisiana.
Professor Paul Rogers, of Bradford University, said the Met’s armed officers’ actions appeared to have parallels with methods used by Israeli security forces and US troops in Iraq.
He said ‘The tactics the Met appear to have used this morning are very similar to the very tough tactics that the Israelis use against suspected suicide bombers.’
In the Middle East, security forces tend not to shoot suspects in the chest or abdomen because of the risk of detonating explosives on bombers’ waistcoats.
Prof Rogers said: ‘To be blunt, they go for a head shot.
The Road Map became the Road to Baghdad Map
London Met Police – Anti-Terrorist Branch SO-013 trained by Israel’s Shayetet 13?
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Reference to diary by londonbear — Adsf is the first person in my lifetime to accuse me of anti-semitism. I find the remark offensive and bs – lack of any critical judgement and knowledge as probable cause, nevertheless remark is IMHO inexcusable.
Cross-posted from diary at European Tribune –
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Al Jazeera July 20, 2005 — A man widely reported to have been the ‘mastermind’ behind the London attacks by slipping into Britain was an innocent Pakistani who happened to have a similar name to that of someone suspected to be an al-Qaida leader.
The man, in his 30s, was the subject of intense media speculation surrounding his visit to Britain culminating in his flying out of London one day before the attacks. His unmonitored presence in the country led to criticism of MI5.
But according to The Independent the suspect had no role in the attacks.
Inquiries made have led to the discovery that the man was an innocent Pakistani traveller who simply happened to have a name similar to that of an alleged al-Qaida member who is on the watch list of several foreign security agencies.
Innocent ’til Proven Quilty
A similar blunder is also said to have occurred following claims by U.S. intelligence that Germaine Lindsay the alleged bomber who carried out the King’s Cross attack, was on a British watch list. This was because the “fourth” bomber was wrongly identified in the United States as Lindsay Jermaine – someone with a similar name to the suspect.
So far, Scotland Yard is concentrating its efforts on determining the movements of the four bombers from Leeds and Aylesbury, and what explosives they used.
Sniffer dogs are being used on the underground to detect explosives and dozens of other dogs will be deployed throughout the London Underground system and the police may also introduce random checks using metal and bomb detectors on the Underground.
● Captured Al-Qaeda kingpin is case of ‘mistaken identity’
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explain his fatal error in running …
what the information does do is …
It confirms the opinion … before the police’s intent could be assessed.
Too much speculation put forth in opinions and too little evidence. MSM reports and many diaries are advantageous to the incompetent action and reaction of the three undercover plain clothed policemen in the London shooting of an innocent man.
I know of no Met policeman or policewoman who would enter the subway carriage and execute a fugitive who had tripped and was on the ground.
What mindset do you have to believe you are tracking a suicide bomber? How many Pakistani, or persons with Asian appearances, live and work in London. What are the chances you are following a bomber?
Alex Pereira, victim’s cousin at Tulse Hill?
Juan Charles de Menezes was not known to the investigation, the housing block was under surveillance. If there was any suspicion towards his involvement with explosives, the housing unit would have been raided.
My only question left: who were these undercover men and what special operations unit did they belong to. What was their training and day’s specific order for the stake out.
The stories told to the press by the London Met Police and Ian Blair is inconsistent and does not give any logical answers to what happened.
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Sun Jul 24th, 2005 at 23:49:58 PDT
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sound eerily similar to police practices in my city, Milwaukee. I empathize with the poster who wrote that this incident resonated with the LAPD practices, too.
In my city, half a dozen men — most of color — have been killed by police in questionable circumstances; the men have been found later to be unarmed. But the police consistently have been cleared by the DA, by inquests, etc.
One young man shot wrongly looked so much like my son, the same age who often frequents the same area. In that case, the young man’s stepfather is a lawyer, and there is a civil suit, at last, that may lead to changes in the police procedures. Until then, all the victims have not been from families who know how or can afford to sue.
Another man, not of color, was killed but blocks from my home. He had been on a nearby campus, which he had attended in past. Women students had reported his actions, which could be construed as harassment. He had been asked to leave the campus area by campus cops, and he did. But his car was pursued into a surrounding residential area by campus cops and local cops, who killed him.
Incident after incident here sadly suggests that, until any exculpatory evidence emerges regarding the London incident, I sadly find myself distrusting the bobbies as much as I sadly find myself distrusting all police in this climate of fear — when anyone seems to them to be a potential criminal or even terrorist.