from: Liberal Street Fighter
A Dutch game player who more or less stumbled onto the sex scene shared the software online, and the next thing you know, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) declares war on java, along with the House of Representatives, whose members reacted to the GTA revelations almost as wildly as they did to the sexy saga of Bill and Monica.
When I was young, I hated the Nanny Party for supporting the Parent’s Music Resource Council. It seems that on this, like so many other issues, the Democrats have no memory and no sense. Despite the eroneous reports at the time, young voters (aged 18-29) did turn out in significantly increased numbers, and they voted for Senator John Kerry over Bush by a margin of 54 percent to 44 percent.
Time to piss off another group of constituents in pursuit of those mythical “undecided” voters.
The Senator called for an FTC Commission investigation, and has gotten her wish:
Take-Two Interactive Software Inc. on Tuesday said the Federal Trade Commission had launched a probe of the company after recent revelations that its bestselling game, “Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas,” contained hidden sex scenes.
The announcement came a day after House lawmakers passed a resolution asking the commission to investigate whether Take-Two misled consumers by failing to disclose the scenes to the Entertainment Software Ratings Board.
The scenes, which can be viewed only by using software available on the Internet to unlock them, were made public by a Dutch programmer in June, prompting the rating board last week to yank the title’s original “Mature” rating and assign it an “Adults Only” rating. That led most U.S. retailers to pull the game off store shelves.
Eager to out-Republican the Republicans, the DC Dems are following Joe Lieberman’s lead and go after “pop culture” as the wellspring of all of our society’s ills. Forget about lack of education, lack of opportunities, lack of jobs … lack of HOPE, the problem is video games, music, movies and the internet:
A report titled “The Porn Standard: Children and Pornography on the Internet” from Third Way, a new Democratic think tank in Washington, says the largest group of consumers of Internet porn is children ages 12 to 17, with the average age of first exposure being 11.
[…]
Third Way was formed recently to help Democrats challenge Republican dominance on issues like family values.
And so it’s no accident that, Wednesday, a group of congressional Democrats pounced on the issue, introducing a bill that would require Internet porn sites to verify the age of anyone trying to gain access and imposing a 25 percent tax on purchases made on porn sites.
“I think we’ve given them plenty of time and plenty of chances to clean up their act,” says Sen. Mark Pryor, D-Ark. “And they haven’t done it. And my impression is they’re not going to do it. There’s too much money at stake.”
I turned away from the Gore/Lieberman ticket over their censorious ways (as well as other issues). Scream all you want about how there is a difference between the two parties, and I’m stupid for being unwilling to see it, but just because the Dems want to limit citizen’s freedoms “for their own good” doesn’t make it better than the Republicans, who want to do it “because it’s immoral.”
I will let the words of Frank Zappa speak for how stupid and unproductive these policies are, from his Frank Zappa: Statement To Congress, September 19, 1985:
The First thing I would like to do, because I know there is some foreign press involved here and they might not understand what the issue is about, one of the things the issue is about is the First Amendment to the Constitution, and it is short and I would like to read it so they will understand. It says:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
That is for reference.[…]
The PMRC proposal is an ill-conceived piece of nonsense which fails to deliver any real benefits to children, infringes the civil liberties of people who are not children, and promises to keep the courts busy for years, dealing with the interpretational and enforcemental problems inherent in the proposal’s design.
It is my understanding that, in law, First Amendment Issues are decided with a preference for the least restrictive alternative. In this context, the PMRC’s demands are the equivalent of treating dandruff by decapitation.
No one has forced Mrs. Baker or Mrs. Gore to bring Prince or Sheena Easton into their homes. Thanks to the Constitution, they are free to buy other forms of music for their children. Apparently, they insist on purchasing the works of contemporary recording artists in order to support a personal illusion of aerobic sophistication. Ladies, please be advised: The $8.98 purchase price does not entitle you to a kiss on the foot from the composer or performer in exchange for a spin on the family Victrola. Taken as a whole, the complete list of PMRC demands reads like an instruction manual for some sinister kind of “toilet training program” to house-break all composers and performers because of the lyrics of a few. Ladies, how dare you?
[…]
The PMRC promotes their program as a harmless type of consumer information service providing ‘guidelines’ which will assist baffled parents in the determination of the ‘suitability’ of records listened to by ‘very young children’. The methods they propose have several unfortunately [sic] side effects, not the least of which is the reduction of all American Music, recorded and live, to the intellectual level of a Saturday morning cartoon show.
Children in the vulnerable age bracket have a natural love for music. If, as a parent, you believe they should be exposed to something more uplifting than “Sugar Walls,” support Music Appreciation programs in schools. Why have you not considered your child’s need for consumer information? Music Appreciation costs very little compared to sports expenditures. Your children have a right to know that something besides pop music exists.
lt is unfortunate that the PMRC would rather dispense governmentally sanitized heavy metal music than something more uplifting. Is this an indication of PMRC’s personal taste, or just another manifestation of the low priority this administration has placed on education for the arts in America?
Mr. Zappa was right then, and what he said holds true now. NO ONE likes a busybody other than another busybody. It would be nice if our supposed leaders would actually work on some real issues, work on defining a program for a Democratic Party that speaks for the poor, speaks for children, speaks for women, speaks for labor, speaks for a strong, healthy and educated citizenry that can make up its OWN mind about what to watch, read, listen to or play.
Of course, that would require actually standing for something other than cheap political theater and the demands of inside-the-beltway “conventional wisdom.” Not going to happen anytime soon.
Amen and recommended Madman! Butt out of my right to choose what I purchase and veiw and listen to. BUTT OUT. This country is rapidly declining into a fascist/police state. Please Democrats stop helping that along.
I was so glad to hear that we have solved the war, peace rules the world, there is no hunger, illness, sorrow, pain, misery, or want. It must have happened while I slept. Now we can take care of these other little nagging problems. How nice.
Sorry, I am a big fan of the ratings on games and music.
I can’t understand most lyrics thru listening, so I relied heavily on those ratings when my boys were growing up.
Take-Two, oh-so-hip-and-cool, included sex scenes in a game they wanted to market to people under 18. Now they’re suffering for it. Too bad.
18-29 year olds would be allowed to buy that game no matter what the rating, correct? Or is it 21 with an adult rating?
I believe M rating is 18 +
The sex scenes where hidden in the code by the programmers when they were building the game. Animators and programmers are notorious for doing stuff like this, if only to keep each other amused through 16 hour days under deadlines.
The game was marketed for adults. It always was marketed to adults. It’s not a company’s, or an artist’s, job to parent.
I know when I managed music stores we would take back ANY recording if a parent complained about it, offering store credit first (the store can’t usually get it’s money back) and then cash if the parent insisted.
I’m sorry, but it’s the parent’s job to teach whatever values they want to their kids. More than that, I want to know why leaders of my party are wasting time on shit like this, instead of fixing the underfunding of NCLB, or improving education or student aid, or trying to broaden “Head Start.”
If the game was always rated “M” and marketed to adults, I understand your beef.
I wanted to teach my kids that it’s not right to refer to women as bitches and ho’s, among many other things. The ratings system helped me achieve those goals without worrying about whether or not the store would accept a return.
I don’t like the most of the messages delivered by popular culture; haven’t for 20 years. I quit listening to the radio in the mornings before school because the hosts talked such silly suggestive trash that I didn’t want my kids hearing. I didn’t allow MTV.
I think the ratings system delivers a market-based solution to a very real problem and avoids censorship. I fail to understand why people who enjoy what I consider trash I won’t allow in my house don’t welcome a way for us both to have what we want.
I don’t approve of Hillary!’s posturing over Grand Theft Auto, but darn, there are problems and it’s a shame to take such a hardline position against efforts to help parents decide what’s right for their kids.
the problem w/ the ratings systems is that they were defacto proposed by lawmakers …
Loud hearings are held, companies and artists are called huns and destroyers of society, and to get that to stop, the various industries introduced the ratings systems. This is how ratings on movies happened too, by the way.
There is also some indication that a quid-pro-quo was broached:
from wikipedia’s overview
Lost in all of this posturing is the artist/creator and the fan.
The movie ratings system was created in response to cries of outrage over explicit movies:
Of course, while I appreciate that parents may find them useful, ratings have the effect of enticing younger fans into wanting something, and I can’t tell you how many exchanges I had to do b/c someone bought the censored version of a cd. In fact, in my experience, the censored versions never sold. Stores I worked in, and later bought for, quit selling them. They just sat there.
There is a real economic and artistic cost to these things. Yes, it may convince your local Wal-Mart or theater from carrying/showing something “objectionable,” but it also removes the availability of worthwhile works as well. Again from wikipedia:
>ratings have the effect of enticing younger fans into wanting something
And of course wanting something is the deciding factor in whether a kid gets it. 🙂
>In fact, in my experience, the censored versions never sold. Stores I worked in, and later bought for, quit selling them. They just sat there.
Perhaps the market is not as large as you are claiming? Or maybe these poor stifled artists should quit selling out to the man and refuse to release censored versions of their art. Choose between principles or crass commercialism.
the artists often don’t have a choice. A label or distributor won’t release an album w/o a “clean” version, because Wal-Mart won’t carry it, and Wal-Mart sells a lot of discs. In some towns, it’s the ONLY place you can get music. A lot of times, the “clean” version will be done very poorly, b/c the artist wouldn’t work on it, so they hire some engineer to go in and just “drop” offending words. A lot of rap records end up sounding like stuttering. Some artists made it a game and replaced the words w/ suggestive sound effects, (a woman’s moan for “fuck” for example).
I guess I’m just puzzled that people think children are so fragile.
I guess I’m just puzzled that people think children are so fragile.
What in the world are you talking about?
As for the rest of your posts — look, why not just say there is no compromise you’re willing to accept.
Let me ask you — in your diary you referred to kids aged 11 looking at porn on the internet. Do you think that’s OK?
I think it’s inevitable and part of growing up. I remember some kid showing us pages out of some porno mag when I was in 4th grade (around 9) … he’d found them stashed in his dad’s closet. Kids are incredibly curious and confused, yet our society both trumpets sex w/ advertising (which truly is nearly inescapable) while cloaking it in shame. We don’t offer sex education, yet we’re shocked when they try to educate themselves. That’s what kids are doing when they search around … trying to learn about this deep, dark and secret thing that adults say is bad, yet its all adults seem to care about.
It’s the parents’ job. Not mine, not the industries’ and not artists’. It shouldn’t be the province of politicians to pretend like they are doing something while not dealing with REAL problems.
As for that 11 year old … where is his/her parents?
I guess I’m a First Amemdment zealot. Information wants to be free, and seeking to control it using political or religious pressure only forces it to find it’s level, to find a crack, somewhere else.
I didn’t ask you about where the kid’s parents were, I asked you if you thought it was OK for an 11 year old to look at porn on the internet. Yes or no?
We don’t offer sex education, yet we’re shocked when they try to educate themselves.
Whaddaya mean, ‘we’, kemosabe?
That’s what kids are doing when they search around … trying to learn about this deep, dark and secret thing that adults say is bad, yet its all adults seem to care about.
I would be very shocked and disappointed to find out that my kids thought, growing up, that all I cared about was sex. Or that they heard me tell them that sex is bad. I hope to God they heard my message that porn is bad, because it reduces and degrades our most personal, intimate ways of expresssing love.
I think you are generalizing too much from your personal experience.
Information wants to be free
Hon, information doesn’t trump people’s souls. Information is the tool, not the master.
“we” in the sense of the culture. “We” use sex to sell EVERYTHING. We place physical appearance before everything else. I’m sure you’re a very good parent, but you’re not the only adult in their lives. You might not allow MTV, but I bet their friends’ parents do.
I think you’re generalizing too much from your feelings as a parent, and I think too many parents expect everyone else to help them do their job.
And no, I don’t think it’s a big tragedy that an 11 year old sees internet porn.
You might not allow MTV, but I bet their friends’ parents do.
My kids are grown, but I am sure they watched stuff at other people’s houses. However, they knew how I felt about it and why. That’s called grounding them in your values and letting them out into the world.
Unfortunately, that world is becoming an uglier place with each passing year, and I truly sympathize with the parents who want to keep their kids out of that world or change it to make it more acceptable. I don’t agree with them, but I sure understand their impulses.
I think too many parents expect everyone else to help them do their job.
Well, yes, yes I do. Because rights come with responsibilities. You want the freedom to have songs that denigrate women and I agree you should have that. But what is your responsibility to the rest of us? It seems to me you’re saying you have none at all.
And no, I don’t think it’s a big tragedy that an 11 year old sees internet porn.
Well, I think it’s bad for a kid. I’d like them to experience more of their own feelings, more tenderness, more awakenings, more love before they look at porn sex which is mostly portrayed solely as service to a physical urge.
Madman, how can you say “it’s the parents’ job” to raise kids, and then be against simple steps like labeling records or video games (a far cry from true censorship, mind you), that gives them the information they need to do that job in the way they see fit?
You say “information wants to be free,” and that’s all that labeling or ratings systems do – gives parents more information about stuff their kids might buy and allows them to make more knowledgable decisions.
I’d say its a pretty good compromise between respecting freedom of speech and acknowledging the real concerns parents have about pop culture. Which is basically all Hillary is trying to do. It’s not like she’s out there advocating real censorship of pop culture.
there was no “compromise.” Fans weren’t consulted. Musicians’ concerns weren’t heeded. The bigwigs at the lobbying arms of the various entertainment industries imposed controls to get politicians off their backs. Controls that remove entire markets and populations from an artist because of “morality.”
You want information? Listen to the damned cd. Play the game with them. Watch the movies with them. Put the computer out in a family area if you don’t want them surfing for porn. Not my job. Not Jay-z’s job. Not Take-Two’s job. High School kids couldn’t see F9/11 because of “language & violence” leading to an R rating, even though they have military recruiters getting their records and speaking to them at assemblies.
Where do you draw the line? It’s YOUR line. Not mine to draw, and not the politicians’ line to draw. If you’ve got kids, then it’s something you have to take care of if it worries you. Trust me, any store will let you return something if you think it’s inappropriate. Hell, ask them before you buy it … most managers will gladly tell you what they know about it. They don’t want the hassles of an upset parent coming back.
What are you talking about “controls”? Walmart is free to sell whatever it wants to, and if people don’t like it there’s plenty of other places to go to get what you want. That’s free market capitalism, which you should be down with since you’re the libertarian here, right? What markets have been denied to anybody? The pop culture industry is raking in billions. You have got to be kidding me.
And this:
. . . sounds like something from the CATO institute. If you want libertarianism, join the Libertarian party. The Democratic Party is a liberal party, not a libertarian one. We value community right alongside freedom and equality. That means “it takes a village to raise a child.” Its everyone’s responsibility, parents first and foremost, yes but we all have a stake in raising the kids, and a moral imperative to do so, if you really care about fundamental human worth and dignity.
For some of us, that means raising kids. For others, it means paying taxes for programs like public education, or head start, or CHIPS and so on. Would you get rid of those programs? Because that’s where your logic is leading.
So, as far as I’m concerned, if parents think that labels or rating systems for the products of pop culture help them to make better decisions about what their kids do or watch or listen to, that’s fine with me, as long as artists are free to create what they want to. And they are.
I’m 100% behind paying for more education. The two things aren’t even connected, but nice straw man.
Using gov’t pressure to use economic levers to limit the availability of any creative work is wrong. I’m a libertarian when it comes to “victimless crimes” and information. More information is always better.
And this:
is hopelessly naive about how artists/creators make a living. If there is nowhere to sell or distribute what you create, you pretty much have to find another way to support yourself.
So hysterical about some sex and violence, while our gov’t spends SO MUCH money on ways to kill people. Why isn’t the Senator raising her voice about that? Oh yes, she SUPPORTS this misbegoten war.
Too busy scoring political points over video games so that self-righteous, stressed out and frightened parents applaud.
Too busy scoring political points over video games so that self-righteous, stressed out and frightened parents applaud.
This from the guy who diaried that the Dems were alienating the 18-29 voter bloc. 🙂
who should be responsible for the children — the government, or the parents?
Rick Santorum and folks like him put down Hillary when she wrote “It Takes a Village” — his current book “It Takes a Family” seems to be a direct dig at the idea of group responsibility for the children. But it seems like the Right wants to turn us into a nation of children; as a 46-year-old adult, I resent the idea that the Government knows better than I do what TV shows I should watch, what library books I should read, and what games I put on my computer.
I have no objection to guidelines…but I have a strong objection to censorship. I would never buy any of the Grand Theft Auto games…but I would not want to see them removed from the shelves.
But that’s just me…
who should be responsible for the culture that surrounds us. Not who should be responsible for the children.
Parenthetically, far too many parents refuse to use the tools which are available like ratings and V-chips. That’s on their heads, no one else’s.
I have no objection to guidelines…
So you’re in favor of ratings, then?
Old story by Justin Wilson, Cajun comic [from memory – 45 years ago]:
When the police arrive the woman takes them into her bathroom and says “Look over there next door. That man is exposing himself to me.”
Policeman looks across to the neighbors and sees a man shaving, but he’s only visible to his chest. “Ma’am, that man is just shaving, and you can’t see below his chest.”
Old woman says: “Here. Stand up on this box. You’ll get a much more better view.”
Eyeah, yeah, yeah. That fits.
we’re getting a great discussion of the issues involved, unlike another site where half the posts were from someone accusing you of bashing Democrats. 🙂
The point is, those sex scenes were not out in the open on GTA:SA. They had to be actively sought by the owner of the game; same with mods in games like The Sims 2 (which is now under attack for “naked Sim” mods by a lawyer in, where else, Florida). To hold the game maker responsible for what people do with their game would be like blaming Kodak for someone using their digital camera to make kiddy porn photos.
But isn’t it interesting that what drives people into this foofraw is hidden sex scenes, not the violence and racial stereotyping perpetuated in games like GTA:SA.
I wrote this on my post at dKos…but I think it’s appropriate here as well:
‘Nuff said…
The government is not telling you what games you can and can’t play by having a ratings system.
Good point about violence vs. sex in a game. I let my kids play violent games as long as they were killing non-humans. Never thought about what to do if there was sex with non-humans. 🙂
the government gets the industry to do it “voluntarily” by threatening legislation.
I call that extortion.
Call it what you will. 🙂
Bottom line is there’s very little that’s forbidden. You can get it, play it, see it if you want with no legal repercussions.
Not satisfied with that, you demand the same wide channels of distribution, the same display space, the same social approval.
he’s a stalker, almost everything I post there. One of the reasons I don’t comment as much over there anymore, which I guess is what he and his friends hope for. That place threatens to become one big boring echo chamber.
we’re getting a great discussion of the issues involved, unlike another site where half the posts were from someone accusing you of bashing Democrats. 🙂
Having just read that thread it’s more like 3/4rs of the posts. Which was, of course, his intention.
cripes I could NOT stand that person. Censorship is censorship it’s just another way of setting a match to a pile of books.
Want the labels to be accurate? Have the artists be a part of the labeling.
I don’t like rap, just like I don’t like Country and Western music. But I wouldn’t prevent someone from hearing it because I didn’t understand or like it and I wouldn’t dare think I could label it.
My kids are music fiends – they have grown up with a wide span. From Mozart to Marilyn Manson (come on he’s just a bitter Bowie) from Hendrix to Monk from Muddy Waters to Dada from Lunatic Asylum to James Taylor from Dylan to Ministry and more.
My daughter can listen to anything she wants. That’s how she finds out she doesnt like or agree with something. She can’t stand the pop crap of Spears, Simpson and that Duffy chick. She introduces music to her friends. She likes Avril as well as Aretha. 🙂
Those labels… the truth behind them. They are MONEY MAKERS. Want to sell a ton of CDs put the Naughty label on it and every damn kid will want it.
I don’t agree with the depictions of women – bitches and ho crap of rap or in C/W. But how about the Rolling Stones “under my thumb”…?
People have been blaming the music industry for everything. Parents need to turn off their tv and listen WITH their kids. I had a mom flip out that I liked a Manson song “Rock is dead” I said I at first thought it was a Bowie tune. Found out it was Manson and decided to listen to some more. She reminded me of those who people who want to ban books they haven’t even read.
With the ability to download and get copies burned from your friends… it’s time we not focus on the labels but focus on our kids and talk with them instead of putting labels up.
thank you. That’s it, exactly, and your kids sound like smart, independent minded people. Ya’ dun good.
If they are Marilyn Manson fans, they/you might enjoy this really interesting interview he did with beliefnet:
It’s quite a good interview. I’ll never forget when I saw him talk to a mother who was upset her daughter was a fan on MTV once. Sat next to her, on a couch in the MTV studios, and explained what he did and why, respectfully listening to her concerns. I think she was a fan by the time they were done.
My daughter is still growing up 🙂 She’s just ten. She writes to politicians demanding answers and change. She’s a reader, writer, poet and … a complete nut 🙂
The thing that gets me is most parents haven’t a clue what they are protesting.
When we had some Christian group “attack” my high school’s library for having certain books… guess which books I then made sure I read. Those very books they were up in arms about.
The only reason I read Lolita was because it was banned.
Back to my daughter… she’s able to make up her mind about music. But.. there’s an open line of communication between her and myself. When she’s confused or concerned she can talk to us. Her dad has turned her on to alot of Blues and she has turned his old geezer butt on to some techno zombie music. 🙂
She told us why she didn’t like Eminem when she heard it on a friends player during a field trip. We didn’t have to tell her not to listen. That’s called learning. It’s something she can carry with her forever… labels won’t be.
to know what’s going on with a game before you buy it for your kid… is to rent it first. But most want to get the game and give it to their kid so the kid can go sit in his room for 6 hours playing a game unattended.
Having worked in a rental store… GTA has always had stickers and parental advisories on it and if their kid came in to rent that game and I didn’t that parent would come in and cuss me out because they had to get their fat ass out of the car to come in and sign for the mature game.
Labels do not replace good communication and attention.
Now.. how about that Carl’s Jr. commercial …
thanks to the overwhelming attempt to impeach Clinton – my young children heard of a BLOW JOB and ORAL SEX just about every damn day for months and months. And these same assholes want to get all upset about a game and music?
Let’s get our troops home. get their medical needs met, get our schools back in working order first. Shit.
Thanks alot for that one, leaders.
Third Way was formed recently to help Democrats challenge Republican dominance on issues like family values.
Oh, God help us.
Another DLC think tank. Does anyone know anything about these folks. Who’s funding them?
Here is their website.
Link to their leadership. I don’t recognize any of them, except Thurgood Marshall Jr., and it’s hard to google here at work. Anybody who can, here ya’ go. They look to be a bunch of former staffers for Bayh, Schumer, Lieberman, Daschle etc. Several have backgrounds in gun control, going by the bios on their website.
To get an idea of their “perspective,” here is their introduction page:
Basically, the usual DLC bullshit.
Funny thing I see here in this thread are all the shoulds:
Parents should rent the games first. They should play the games. They should listen and watch with their kids. They should stop expecting society to help them. Democrats should stop pandering to parents.
For those of you who stand with the Madman, what are your shoulds?
if I was a parent, I’d much rather have my kids watching sex than violence. At least healthy sexuality has a place in this society — is there such a thing as healthy violence?
Here’s a story: when I was in my 20’s, I dated a guy 14 years older than me. He had a good friend, a divorced woman with a teenaged son. The son, of course, was curious about sex and wanted to see “Deep Throat”. She gave her permission, with one caveat: he had to watch it with my friend. So was she a bad mother for allowing her son to watch an explicit sex movie…or a good mother for having him watch it with a man who could answer his questions in an honest and adult manner?
[A side note: several months later, he was getting ready for work and listening to the radio, when he heard some familiar music. He called the station and asked, “Is that music from ‘Deep Throat’? The DJ laughed and said, “Yeah, around here we call it ‘Linda’s Theme’.” And from that point, I teased him that he was the only man I knew that could watch “Deep Throat” and actually remember the music…]
some of our favorite families have an R rating… a few cuss words in Mystery Men… big effing deal.
The hardest movie for me as a child, the one that I still remember and still stings. OLD YELLER. Now that movie messed me up. LOL
All those Disney-type movies dealing with death of animals. Cripe! My Dog Called Skip. My daughter cried for days after that one.
oh, when Bambi’s mom dies …
My aunt took me to see Old Yeller and Where the Red Fern Grows.
The only plus side was that I won the theatre jackpot that night. A CASE of baseball cards/gum. The “case” was the size of a horizontal freezer. Took 4 guys to haul out to my Aunts little green truck.
Had so much we passed them out for Halloween treats.
Yes, Bambi was horrid.
Hansel and Gretel… horrid abuse and cannibalism.