I’m going to link to this diary at Dailykos. Just when you think your measurable level of outrage has already peaked, beware. This is one woman’s story at the Convention Center in New Orleans:
Denise said she thought she was in hell. they were
there for 2 days, with no water, no food. no shelter. Denise, her mother (63 years old), her niece (21 years old), and 2-year-old grandniece. when they arrived, there were already thousands of people there. they were told that buses were coming. police drove by, windows rolled up, thumbs up signs. national guard trucks rolled by, completely empty, soldiers with guns cocked and aimed at them. nobody stopped to drop off water. a helicopter dropped a load of water, but all the bottles exploded on impact due to the height of
the helicopter.
the first day (Wednesday) 4 people died next to her. the second day (Thursday) 6 people died next to her. Denise told me the people around her all thought they had been sent there to die. again, nobody stopped. the only buses that came were full; they dropped off more and more people, but nobody was being picked up and taken away. they found out that those being dropped off had been rescued from rooftops and attics; they got off the buses delirious from lack of water and food. completely dehydrated. the crowd tried to keep them all in one area; Denise said the new arrivals had mostly lost their minds. they had gone crazy.
inside the convention center, the place was one huge bathroom. in order to shit, you had to stand in other people’s shit. the floors were black and slick with shit. most people stayed outside because the smell was so bad. but outside wasn’t much better: between the heat, the humidity, the lack of water, the old and very young dying from dehydration… and there was no place to lay down, not even room on the sidewalk. they slept outside Wednesday night, under an overpass.
Denise said yes, there were young men with guns there. but they organized the crowd. they went to Canal Street and “looted,” and brought back food and water for the old people and the babies, because nobody had eaten in days. when the police rolled down windows and yelled out “the buses are coming,” the young men with guns organized the crowd in order: old people in front, women and children next, men in the back. just so that when the buses came, there would be priorities of who got out first.
Denise said the fights she saw between the young men with guns were fist fights. she saw them put their guns down and fight rather than shoot up the crowd. but she said that there were a handful of people shot in the convention center; their bodies were left inside, along with other dead babies and old people.
Denise said the people thought there were being sent there to die. lots of people being dropped off, nobody being picked up. cops passing by, speeding off. national guard rolling by with guns aimed at them. and yes, a few men shot at the police, because at a certain point all the people thought the cops were coming to hurt them, to kill them all. she saw a young man who had stolen a car speed past, cops in pursuit; he crashed the car, got out and ran, and the cops shot him in the back. in front of the whole crowd. she saw many groups of people decide that they were going to walk across the bridge to the west bank, and those same groups would return, saying that they were met at the top of the bridge by armed police ordering them to turn around, that they weren’t allowed to leave.
With so many conflicting accounts coming from all directions, we need verification of any account. Sorry to be rude, but the political push back is getting really ugly and the disinformation game is back in full swing.
I see two conflicting accounts: the horror of the stories as they unfold and are told, including the images broadcast for days on CNN, and the official responses and damage control.
If you read the dkos diary, this was told by word of mouth and sent by email to many people. Take the story for what it is: word of mouth during a state of horror and emergency.
Believe it or not believe it. But we must document it.
There will be time to verify “officially” if that is what you are looking for.
Stories sent by e-mail to many people is how urban legends are made in the electronic age. What I ask is not to post unless the poster can verify the legitimacy of the report and be willing to back it up.
If this is not a first person account, but I an got it from someone who e-mailed it to someone, etc., it is not verified and should be considered rumor.
THis diary is extracted from a recommended diary on the dkos list. I just heard interviews on Aaron Brown with three college students who made it in to rescue people from the horror of the Convention Center. They said it was anarchy there.
Is it really so hard to imagine that this woman’s story may be true? Are we only to share those stories that we hear directly from the mouths of the people who experienced this?
For you to raise the issue of “urban legend” I find frankly to be a bit out of touch with the reality of current events.
I did not say THIS story was urban legend, I said that mass e-mails are how stories becomes urban legend. I’m asking that posters identify the original source and verify before posting.
It isn’t up to my imagination, or the possibilities of what may or may not be true. I’m asking that we be vigilant because disinformation is rampant.
With so many conflicting accounts coming from all directions, we need verification of any account. Sorry to be rude, but the political push back is getting really ugly and the disinformation game is back in full swing.
You are asking that we share stories that are verified only. That means stories extracted from the print and news media only, or if we talk to the people directly. Most of us, including myself, are not in a position to do that right now.
You are asking us not to share news received through the interlocking network of concerned citizens and activists sharing information as they receive it.
Since we are the alternative media, you are asking us, basically, not to function, or to function only as an echo of the “official” media. Sorry, I can’t do that.
If someone sent me an email that Cheney has decided to vacation in New Orleans this September, then no, I won’t pass that on (or just for a laugh I might). But this woman’s story is well within the confines of “reality”, given the information we already have on this horror.
That’s what I’m asking and that is a fairly common standard for progressive blogs. Sourcing means where you got the information, it doesn’t mean print or news media exclusively.
Do you really believe that this story is going to somehow threaten the credibility of booman? Not to be rude, but at a time like this, who are you trying to impress?
You won’t respond directly to my questions as to your personal impressions of the authenticity of this story. That is what I am interested in. Otherwise, I have no interest in the standards you are trying to impose at at time like this.
I believe all of the stories I have shared contain a great deal of credibility. I will continue to post them when I see fit.
I have no personal impressions on the authenticity, anymore than I would have personal impressions on the authenticity of any unsourced material. By sourcing the material you post, you are providing readers with a basis to evaluate credibility for themselves.
http://www.femmenoir.net/LisaMoore.htm
http://www.femmenoir.net/anyboard9/forum/posts/1158.html
And I received the same e-mail story via a reliable source yesterday — an academic listserve for faculty at UT-Austin.
Lisa C. Moore is a well-known writer and publisher in the black lesbian community. She lives in Austin. Her full name as well as her cousin’s is provided in the original version of the story. The fact that this hasn’t yet appeared in a mainstream media source says a lot about the type of “victims” the media is covering. Articulate, professional, capable, and angry African-Americans aren’t getting a lot of press just now.
Thank you for sourcing this.
and thank you again for your ‘reporting’ here …I also hope you are doing well under the circumstances of all your personal involvement.
Thank you. As stressful as it has been, I feel we are fortunate as we have a roof over our heads, unlike so many others.
Watching Aaron Brown just now. He interviewed a woman who evacuated from the superdome with two children. She described the hellish conditions: no food or water, her children begging for water; children being raped; murders. She said there were young thugs with guns who fueled the anarchy.
Then Aaron Brown said Chertoff told the committee of lawmakers today that conditions weren’t as bad in the superdome as was reported by the media.
The truth will come out.
doing, please?
At any other point in time, I may agree with most of what debraz is saying, but don’t YOU worry about it just now — there will be plenty of time to cross-reference, fact check and “source” later — if some people need that right now, they can begin with the stories you post and get right on it — for me, you just keep on documenting, whatever and however you can. If we don’t put the stories out there int he first place, there will be no way to triangulate later…
All of us saw with our own damn eyes the squalor and the neglect — this is no time for dismissal of oral histories, or personal insights because we think people may be traumatized and/or exaggerating — I want to hear every damn story I can, first hand third hand, whatever, and I will not give in to the tempatation to dismiss anything out of hand because it is “too outragous or horrible” to be believed — a lot of people are wanting to soothe themselves with denying that the more horrid and damning aspects of this event never happened. I want to hear witness, whether or not you can “source” it — the stories directly from people’s mouths (even if they have passed through a few hands) are enough for me.
Please just keep on. And thank you for taking the time to document in what must be a trying time for you.