Markos has been a severe critic of NARAL [permalink/no comments link] and now the Human Rights Campaign (HRC), for supporting Lincoln Chafee for re-election in Rhode Island. Before I begin to address the merits of his arguments, I want to say that I wholeheartedly agree with Kos’s critics on one thing. The tone Kos has used to bash NARAL and the HRC has been unnecessarily alienating to large segments of his community. I don’t see any reason to attack innocent bystanders when the target is supposed to be the governing bodies of the interest groups.
I think taking such an approach detracts from the point he is trying to make. And his point, as I understand it, makes a lot of sense.
He thinks the best way to protect and advance progressive values on choice and civil rights is to gain majorities in the House and in the Senate. It’s hard to argue against that logic.
:::flip:::
I don’t understand why Lincoln Chafee remains a Republican. He would be welcome in the Democratic Party. He has a good record on most issues that are important to progressives, and his record would be even better if he didn’t have to toe the party line from time to time. But Chafee has refused to follow Jeffords and he continues to support Bill Frist and the rest of the GOP leadership.
Only 10% of Rhode Islanders are registered Republicans, and George Bush is more unpopular in Rhode Island than in any other state. There is no reason why Rhode Island should have a Republican senator, but they do, and he is currently way ahead in the polls. What specifically angered Markos was NARAL’s succussful campaign to get anti-abortion Representative Jim Langevin to drop out of the race against Chafee. Many political insiders felt that Langevin was a shoe-in to beat Chafee, and pro choice Attorney General Sheldon Whitehouse and Secretary of State Matt Brown are much less likely to prevail.
There are two problems with Markos’s argument beside his tone. The first problem is that he doesn’t take into account what special interest groups like NARAL are designed to do. They don’t just support or oppose candidates. They work to pressure elected officials on specific votes. And they reward or punish politicians based on how they cast those votes.
A good friend of mine is the president of a teacher’s union in Delaware County, Pennsylvania. He is a passionate, raving, partisan Democrat. But when his union had to decide whom to endorse for Senate in last year’s Specter/Hoeffel campaign, he had no choice but to endorse Specter. It tore him up inside, but Specter had given him every vote he has asked for. If they had turned their back on Specter, they would have lost the credibility to pressure Republicans on votes in the future. The same is true of other interest groups, whether they are environmental, woman’s rights, civil rights, or something else.
Markos ignores this aspect of interest group pressure (votes) and only focuses on the bigger picture (power). Interest groups don’t have the luxury of ignoring votes, particularly when the Democrats have so little power. That is not how interest groups work, or how they flex their muscles.
The second problem with Markos’s thinking is that it presupposes that the only way to beat Chafee (or Santorum, for that matter) is to run Langevin (or Casey). But Langevin and Casey are anti-abortion candidates. Neither Pennsylvania or Rhode Island are anti-abortion states. Being pro-choice in these northern states is not a liability, and in Rhode Island it is actually a plus.
And, even though Chafee is solidly ahead in the polls, 52% of the people have not made up their minds. Santorum is polling slightly ahead of Usama bin-Laden. It is simply not true that the only way to beat Chafee and Santorum is to run anti-choice candidates against them. That kind of logic makes a lot more sense in states like Kansas and Nebraska, but it makes little sense in Rhode Island and Pennsylvania.
The most I can say for Markos’s reasoning, is that it is true that Casey and Langevin would give the Democrats the best chance to beat Santorum and Chafee. But, in both cases, it is not their position on abortion that makes them attractive candidates, but their name recognition and ability to raise money.
And that is where the progressive blogosphere comes into the picture. We have the ability to raise money for candidates when the DCCC won’t. We can help raise the name recognition of candidates. We don’t have to settle for candidates that don’t represent our values on gay rights, women’s rights, civil rights, or anything else. If we look the other way while the party leadership forces GOP-lite representatives on us, then we are abandoning the purpose for which we exist.
The Democratic Party is a pro-choice party, it is a gay rights party, it is a civil rights party, it is an environmental party. We have room for some representatives that don’t share our views on some of those issues, but we should not recruit them in blue states, nor should we show them preference in contested primaries over candidates that believe in the party platform.
So, I agree with Markos that the best way to protect the rights of women and gays is to take control of Congress, but I disagree with his analysis of how that can best be done and I think his attacks on NARAL and the HRC demonstrate an unrealistic expectation of how interest groups function. And then there is the tone.
Democratic majority does not mean women’s rights majority, or gay rights majority, or anti-poverty majority. And the Democrats keep taking steps to prove that.
The idea that the name “Democrat” automatically means progressive values I think is proving every day to be a falsehood.
Some Dems are very strong in these areas. But that doesn’t mean endorsing a party opening its arms and cash accounts to “Democrats for Life” and folks to vote for things like that abomination of a bankruptcy bill and people who claim to be for equal rights no matter what sexual orientation and then go opposing gay marriage and even gay civil unions.
I don’t know about you, but I go by what the politician stands for. Maybe I’m just a fool to take them at their word.
Booman wrote: “He thinks the best way to protect and advance progressive values on choice and civil rights is to gain majorities in the House and in the Senate. It’s hard to argue against that logic.”
Actually, it is very easy.
Kos wants the Democrats to win–by stifling groups like HRC and NARAL and environmentalists and women’s rights, etc.
So when the Democratic Party rises to power, it will owe NOTHING to the progressives–who have allowed the party to win by being silent and invisible.
Politics is all about paying back the people who put you in power–if progressives don’t play a role in the Democratic ascendancy, and fight for the soul of the party, they will end up in a world worse than the one they know now, a world in which both Republicans and Democrats need not heed progressive political voices.
Kos, once again, is wrong. Color me unsurprised.
I just don’t agree with you about Markos.
You are saying that he is alienating progressives so that the Dems won’t owe progressives anything when they take power. But I see no evidence that Markos has an anti-progressive agenda. He is pro-choice, for example. And he thinks that beating Chafee is more important than whether his replacement is pro-choice or not. He has a fairly solid argument for why he thinks that.
It’s a question of power. Chafee has little, Frist has a lot. Making Frist minority leader will do more for the country than keeping one RI senate seat pro-choice.
I spelled out what I think is wrong with his argument, so I won’t repeat it here. But I see no evidence that he has an anti-progressive agenda.
I agree with you in that I don’t think Kos is anti-progressive. However, I do feel that he IS a avowed Moderate, with a capital ‘M.’
I’ve met tons of this type in TX.
These people think that to be either too left or too right is a liability. It’s like they have taken Aristotle’s “Golden Mean” principle to heart but reinterpreting virtues as being purely based on politics and doing even that haphazardly. Instead of courage being the mean of too much or too little bravery, etc, we now have somethign like a rational person choosing between too much greed and too much kindness to the poor.
There’s something fundamentally wrong about that sort of reasoning but it’s beguiling all the same.
Now, I don’t really know Markos, so I can’t really judge him and slap this label on him as if I had a finger on what he is. However, this is definitely a feelign i get from him.. that I base on meeting TX Dems over the years.
I agree, I’ve never seen reason to think that markos is not ideologically a solid progressive, though a far more moderate one than somebody like me.
On the other hand, the divisions he’s creating speak to a very basic lack of understanding as to the relationship between party politics and political issues. It’s really kind of astounding to me that mr. rail-against-the-DLC has utterly somehow missed the point that the left of the democratic party, not to mention greens and so forth, have absolutely no faith whatsoever in the democrats’ willingness to actually represent their interests. This is for good reason; we’ve watched our issues be cast aside by the current flock of dem politicos for… hell, for my whole life.
From that angle, it should not be so shocking to markos that large swaths of the left aren’t particularly interested in fighting for the democratic party over and above the causes that they’ve been fighting for without much help from the politicos for years. You have to build some trust before you can tell people you’ll get to their needs once you’re in power.
In the sense that markos not only doesn’t seem to get that, but honestly seems to think that telling people (more or less) to shut up and go away will help our cause means that though he’s not anti-progressive, he’s still just as capable of hurting the cause of progressive unity as he claims NARAL is. This will only improve if he starts addressing the quite valid reasons for so-called single-issue activism instead of simply declaring that it is stupid.
I won’t hold my breath on that one. And until then, sure he’s progressive, but he’s also heavily feeding, rather than solving, the Neverending Progressive Unity Problem.
Eh, long and somewhat off topic. Clearly I need more beer.
Mr. Moulitsa isn’t necessarily anti-progressive.
If he feels the Democrats can win with progressives front and centre, then fine, progressives are welcome in the “big tent”.
If he feels the Democrats can’t win with progressives front and centre, then fine, they need to be silent and invisible or get kicked out of the “big tent”.
It’s an amoral political philosophy in which winning isn’t everything, it’s the only thing. Principles and all that are fine so long as they don’t interfere with winning.
It’s a recipe for disaster.
The Republicans have principles you know. They have certain firm convictions which they never compromise. People admire them for it–well, some people–and they inspire a fiercely loyal base that can be depended upon to ALWAYS do their bidding. The “base” of the GOP will walk through walls for them.
Can the Democrats say the same? The true believers are the progressives–they are the activists, the ones who went to Texas to be with Cindy Sheehan, the ones who go door to door not just for presidential elections but city council elections as well.
Anyway, it’s quite silly of Mr. Moulitsa to rail againt NARAL, et al–he has no influence over them nor their decisions, and never will. Those organisations operate independently of the Democrats and independently of us. We can discuss them all we like–but they will do what they think is in their best interests.
The Democratic Party can either work with these groups, or scorn them. It’s the only decision the party has to make.
You say Kos isn’t antiprogressive, but he allows people who are to ride herd over progressives. They get banned all the time. Just look at this thread, and the thread it referenced. Yes, I was banned for pointing out that a progressive was being abused.
I couldn’t crosspost my criticism of this pack of centrist bullies at dkos if I want to. I have been banned. If he is not going centrist, why has he allowed this Lieberman supporter to abuse everyone? Also I have written him about it and he won’t respond. It was after I wrote him that I was banned. I suspect this person opens emails rather than Kos, but I just won’t give Kos the benefit of the doubt anymore, since he won’t respond.
How the hell did you get banned? I’ve been trying every way I know and can’t manage it.
I’ve been threatened with banning twice, by Armando and DHinMI, and I don’t even try that hard, nor am I particularly strident. It’s creepy…or freepy.
Well said.
well said. I for one have a choice. You for one have a choice. Everyone out there has a choice to be made on how they feel and what they think. To be told that they do not matter with those thoughts and views is simply adolecent, and not harm against that age group either.
I can not take away from your stance, except to say, you have a big heart and mind. I won’t stand still for getting screwed again without a fight. I do not have one word say in those states politics. I just look on and see what is going on. I do have a say in my state and I will vote for whom I feel will do us justice here.
To take down special interests and groups who do not reflect your values, is somewhat pecarious, depending on the group. I see this loosing your credibility on such matters. I believe if one should discuss matters and get out in the open the whole oritation on such issues will find common ground for doing things the right way. There is a standard I find I live by and that is to pick my fight. I can not fight all fights; hensforth and consequently, we must all find our nitch/fight to which we can do the most good. There is some areas I do not have expertiese in, so I stay away from them, and just see what is going on, then make my decision. However, there are some I do have expertese in, and I will open my mouth loudly and clearly. This I fould not permissible on the kos. Much to his loosing he lost many a good minds and fighters over there.
Thank God you appeared for me or all would have been lost for me personally. I just started to find my voice over there, and then to turn around and loose it for the sake of conformity….not in me, Babe….just not in me.
Again, Thank You, for your site. I find you truly fair and non-biased for the most part and will listen to reason. This is what being a part of humaninity is all about.
posted at dkos too. We’ll see how the threads differ.
Lots of defensive people on dKos. Wonder if Armando will come over here and insult us again.
… misread one of my posts in the dKos thread and then attacked not only me but “you folks.” I wonder who we folks are?
Armando insulted us?? I missed that!
During the pie fight, Booman kindly let Armando post a front page post, thinking Armando was trying to smooth things over. However, Armando proceeded to denigrate all of us and piss us off even more. I believe the post has since been deleted, otherwise I’d link to it. It was not pretty.
As well as not being very honorable 🙁 It’s like Armando rewarded Boo’s generosity with a knife in the back
I smell a bloodbath in the making. I’ve been there. How long before Armando, DH, Biminicat, Addison etc. come in to kick in unison?
Sorry I can’t be there to help. They froze my account (after disabling my rating ability) because the bullies couldn’t win the arguments. That’s their style now, not exactly honorable.
Addison just showed up on the other thread.
Accusing us all of doing exactly what they do on dKos, of course! 🙂
it’s beyond predictable over there. It’s the same bullies on patrol all the time, ad nauseum. What i love is they say the blog hasn’t changed yet I and all my fellow posters were in great standing since the beginning until November ’04 when the blog made a huge shift and ever since then we have been persona non grata for saying the same thing we did for years there with no problem (and arm and arm with those now running the site).
Funny in its absurdity but heartbreaking to watch a place you contributed to for years take a nosedive. A friend showed me a few minutes of the new VH-1 Danny Bondaduce reality show the other night and he was steroided, nasty, hubris-filled and dysfunctional and all I could think of as I listened to him rant was those Kossacks who troll the threads now.
So true. The exact same points I made in the fall of 2003 got me 4s, now they just call out the all-too-predictable hounds.
Damn you, Boo, for making me go back there. It’s not a happy place. Your point was important and you made it well, but I look forward to this dying down so I can ignore them again.
It’s like picking a scab, isn’ it? You don’t want to do it, you know it will hurt, but you do it anyay…
A scab-pick is exactly what it is, and I feel stupid now every time I’m persuaded to visit. I inevitably end up saying something more cranky than I feel, then regret it.
I guess my threshold for debating the merits of what I consider core Democratic principles has lowered. It always feels like there’s a fresh new crop of college students at Daily Kos who decided to pick “D” rather than “R” on the form, and are still waiting for someone to tell them what that means.
(And more to the point, it should be possible to have a critical debate about the tactics of a group like HRC, and whether or not it’s an effective organization compared to other LGBT advocacy groups. I give them money, but have doubts myself at times. But that civil debate will never happen when Kos begins it with such obvious anger.)
Wow. I guess September really doesn’t end.
when it was net.acceptable to flame someone on USENET just for posting from an aol.com domain. I was busy writing a Gopher+ client and server that my company actually thought people would pay for… [gets teary-eyed]
Oh wow yeah I have to agree with you. I think it’s changed a great deal. My poppa is more conservative than I am (by a good bit) and even he tells me now that KOS has lost a lot of it’s juice. He frequents Boo more now.
Exactly. Kos’s actual purging of progressives by right wing tu’s is what makes me smell a rat. Look at this. DH namecalled a poster for criticizing Pelosi over the war, then when other defended this poster he banned them. Kos has not responded to any of the emails complaining about this, so he must supports it.
first I thought I would see at least one comment over there say get your own blog if you dont like it.
Second, Boo and Kos are two very different blogs. Face it you go there to see the headline stories that other people cut, paste, and comment on. It saves a lot of time and people demand links.You come here for another set of priorities and you go through the posts much slower because of how they are written
You and Armondo doing lunch soon?
Yunno Boo…
I agree with 1000% of what you are saying here… but something just came to my attention and I am PISSED OFF.
Not at you or your great blog that allows me to blow off steam…. but this is absolute tripe…
Where the hell does fuckins Simon “DLC/NDN” Rosenberg get off defining the entire Democratic blogosphere as:
Yunno what really pisses me off about Kos and Rosenberg is there absolute distain for the Democratic base. Who the fuck do these jokers think they are to fucking label the entire fucking Democratic blogoshere…
I was teasing before but now I am furious!!!
What a freaking piss ant…
If this crosses your boundaries than delete it but I am too through with the fucking DLC/NDN assholes.
The most I can say for Markos’s reasoning, is that it is true that Casey and Langevin would give the Democrats the best chance to beat Santorum and Chafee. But, in both cases, it is not their position on abortion that makes them attractive candidates, but their name recognition and ability to raise money.
I disagree. The best chance we have of defeating Santorum is getting a real candidate on the Democratic ticket. Chuck Pennacchio has clear stances on the issues. He’s a Progressive/Liberal candidate who truly stands in opposition to Santorum’s politics. Casey has, for the most part, sat on his hands. Casey’s issues page is sorely lacking.
If Pennacchio is the candidate coming out of the Democratic primary, the money will come. It has to come. He has to be our candidate.
The Democratic Party generally represents my interests as you outlined in your article. As a result, I have voted a straight democratic party ticket in almost every election. However, there have been a couple of times where the democratic candidate held such an offensive viewpoint on one or more issues, that I felt compelled to either not vote or vote for a third party candidate. For example, Grey Davis (Gov. of CA) was a horrible democrat, firmly in the pocket of big business and I was unable to vote for him a second time. (I will say that I would have held my nose and voted for him if there was a strong indication that the fascist right-wing candidate stood a chance of winning, and I did vote against the recall). I will never, ever vote for Diane Feinstein again, even if it means that a Repug will win. She has voted against my interests too many times to count.
I am a collection of special interests. I believe strongly in women’s rights, reproductive rights, gay rights, environmental issues, and worker’s rights. I want a candidate that stands firm for what he/she believes in and not some wishy-washy half-assed centrist who will be beholden to whoever gives him/her the most money. I will not support a candidate who voted to gut bankruptcy protection. I will not vote for a candidate who advocates tighter controls on reproductive rights. I will not tolerate a party which insults my intelligence by calling me petty names for issues which I consider to be of fundamental importance. I am a feminazi, treehugger tim-foil hatter, progessive liberal and proud of it.
Progressive voices will not be heard if we back candidates that do not represent our beliefs. I do not buy that we have to run pro-life candidates in states that are overwhelmingly pro-choice. I do ont see how stuffing the government with DINO’s will help progressive and liberal interests. I, for one, will not vote for them.
/end rant! :>)
However, there have been a couple of times where the democratic candidate held such an offensive viewpoint on one or more issues, that I felt compelled to either not vote or vote for a third party candidate.
Funny, last fallI voted straight Dem, wth the exception of no vote for treasurer, because I abhor Bob Casey, Jr.
Nah, common sense + principles.
BooMan, I believe that you are correct that the tone has had a huge impact. There is a sense of intolerance rather than an invitation for give-and-take. I believe that had Markos simply presented his ideas as a starting point for a discussion, we would not be exploring this now. Instead it seemed to be and ending point. Putting aside the goals of interest groups (which must pursue their aims as they best see fit), the party speaks with many voices. We are not Republicans, marching in lock step to a predetermined script.
I don’t think Markos is nearly the liberal I am, but I also do think he’s sincere about progressive politics. Where Daily Kos really fails is:
I think you hit the ‘ole nail on the head. You state:
The tone Kos has used to bash NARAL and the HRC has been unnecessarily alienating to large segments of his community.
and that’s really how its seen from the top isn’t it? his community. not the, not mine. not yours. not ours.
his.
i really always thought he was a pretty clever IT guy. his political judgement, which seems rather clumsy, sort of bears this out. and his bull/chinashop approach to building online coalitions? how is that less destructive than NARALs approach? can you imagine what things might be possible if he were politically astute?
You just touched on the aspect of all of the dkos bickering that always makes me shake my head the most… and that’s the “shut up and get in line because we have to be pragmatic” line of thinking. Because it’s, you know, somehow pragmatic to tell huge chunks of your allies to shut up.
Coalition building is pragmatic. And you sure as shit don’t build coalitions by telling people that their views are just dumb (which is about the level of discourse over there at this point) or that their needs are less important than your needs. Pragmatism is not calling people with whom you disagree poo-heads during a debate and then huffily declaring them all oversensitive when they decide you’re not worth their time.
Eh, whatever. Lots of sloppy as hell thinking over there these days. Dunno why I bother; I keep letting myself get sucked into this argument over there, and there’s not much point.
Heard the same thing in 2004 from the same bunch–Anybody But Bush!
Doubts about Kerry? Shut your mouth! Unity above all!
Now it’s Anybody But Republicans–ABR instead of just ABB–and it’s gotten us nowhere.
Whenever someone says, “Give me power”, my first question is, “What are you going to do with it?” What the Kossacks want to do with the power they seek is a bit of a mystery. Certainly they don’t wish to advance progressive causes, because according to them, progressive leftie groups are hindering their ascension to Olympus.
The Kossacks say they don’t need us; we’re dead weight.
I say we don’t need them–they keep telling us to betray our principles and conscience in exchange for a victory…which never comes.
Well, hell, if we’re going to lose anyway, why not lose fighting for our beliefs? Fighting with all our hearts and not half-heartedly.
The greatest logical fallacy Kos and his ilk make is that they equate the Democratic Party with progressive politics. In some cases they overlap, in other cases they don’t.
Minor quibble…it’s the Human Rights Campaign.
And a little good (somewhat related) news…today, the Mass Legislature defeated an amendment to do away with marriage equality and create civil unions by a vote of 157-39.
thanks. I will correct.
Congrats MAJeff!
Not seeing any other diaries on this vote (big frog in the sky forbid that I do a duplicate diary!!!) ;-)…
I put up a diary on that good news here
Thanks for posting a diary….I had to run to class as I was posting the comment….it’s a nice day-before-my-birthday present from the MA General Court. Now, a couple more years of work to keep equality here in the Bay State…and we’re gonna win!
It’s the usual Democratic circular firing squad. Instead of working up a solid liberal platform, the party elite (or elite wannabies) are already throwing special interests overboard.
The one good thing from all this is that it gives a hint as to who the DLC/DNC will leave behind in 2008. Pro-choicers are first on the list to get tossed, apparently. And anti-war hippies.
Luckly there is a Green party…
If you’re a pro-choice, lesbian who can visualize peace!
First post here. Nothing to add really except that it was nice to see the post over at DailyKos (which is why I’m here).
Actually, here is one thought: I do not consider DailyKos a “liberal” blog — I consider it a Democratic blog. That is, Kos and Armando cheer on the Democrats even when they make the most horrendous blunders (such as the grand compromise that installed three wingnut judges onto the bench and prevents many Dems from strongly opposing Roberts for the SC). There is scant talk about agenda mainly because when you really talk issues you find that most Democrats still can not agree on the basics of an agenda. Kos screaming down NARAL is consistent with a view that the only goal of the Democratic Party is to win races — period. The promotion of any issue can be put aside for that goal.
Because of this, it is easy for people at Kos and those outside it to talk past each other and still consider themselves either liberal or Dems. It is an agenda and a vision that unites people — not a party.
Coffee’s over there on that table, and lemonade, and feel free to grab some cookies, they’re yummy.
Welcome…I saw you got a good thumping in the other thread…
I actually think dKos is a great place to go if you want to check up on where the Democratic party is today and where it’s likely headed.
So, what type of MSM member were you in that former life?
and thank you for your insight into the Kos mindset.
I beleive Booman has opened the door to a true Progressive blog where everyone gets to address their issues in a truly open and respectful way.
Again welcome to Booman’s
Welcome. There’s a nice group of folks here. Feel free to explore and read and comment as much as you can/want to.
welcome numediaman. It is good to have you here. please feel very free to jump right on in and commnet as you see fit. Everyone is welcome to their thoughts and comments. You may/not like our comments here but you certainly will get an ear full…bs
Again welcome aboard.
It’s nice here. Everyone has been very friendly to me, and I feel that my comments are read and thought about. Glad to have you join in.
Welcome and hope you will hang around here more often. You hit the proverbial nail on the head I believe when you said that Kos is not a liberal blog but a Democratic blog.(although at this point democrat seems to becoming more/more watered down version of republican values and ideas)
The only rule here as dictated by Booman is ‘don’t be a prick’…should be self explanatory but simply means respect other peoples opinions and if you disagree do it in a decent and respectful manner.
Again, welcome-always nice to see someone new here.
Another ink-stained wretch? Or perhaps not. Perhaps an electron-permeated wretch.
Whatever. Welcome. No deadlines, no screaming, just intelligent analysis and conversation. And the Froggy Bottom Cafe.
Welcome, I second all the above comments :o)
Very thoughtful, and with a positive suggestion for future action.
Too bad they’re piling on (and shooting the messenger) where you cross-posted, completely missing your points.
“Online TonTon Macoutes”.
I did not coin the phrase, but wish I had–they are the Kossack enforcers, and are pitiless to any who dare question the Great and Powerful Kos.
I too got that impression. After reading some comments, I regret even going there. This is what definately turns me off there…no R E S P E C T what so ever. Just big mouths spitting splur all over the place, IMHO
Who will be our Toto
pitiless to any who dare question the Great and Powerful Kos
to pull aside the curtain?
is how we’ve ended up with DINOs in Congress. Has Kos heard of “Democrats for Life”? They’re barely distinguishable from the Religious Reich, if you ask me.
I’ve heard talk about “the big tent”, but it seems like most of us are being shoved out to stand in the rain.
I’ll check out the dKos posting later — heading AFK for a few hours…but wanted to say thanks for a space where we can express ourselves.
And you’re right, Kos misses the point — you’re not going to find NARAL supporting an anti-choice candidate, just like you won’t find the Sierra Club supporting a candidate in favor of clear-cutting.
And by rewarding Republicans who vote in our favor on some issues (such as choice), we might be encouraging them to break with the leadership on future issues (such as impeachment). I’m not at the point of saying “Repubs ba-a-a-d, Dems go-o-o-d” like the sheep in “Animal Farm” might say…I’m one of those idealists who try to judge people on their individual merits, rather than a party label.
I am astonished! Not at Mr. Moulitsa, aka Markos aka Kos, but astonished at the number of people who express dismay at Mr. Moulitsa’s intemperate tone, as well as his dunderheaded ideas.
He keeps doing it again and again and again, and yet people still struggle to understand “why”.
The answer is simple: This is his manner of expressing himself–hot-headed, arrogant, and insulting. This is his political philosophy: Democratic Party uber alles.
Kos himself has provided more than ample evidence to support both my answers. Now the only question left is: why are you bothering with this man and his views, or with the person himself?
Time to move on. Kos is not a friend of progressive politics; in fact, he is an obstacle, albeit a minor one.
Actually, it’s easy to argue against. We work our asses off and open our pocketbooks and get 51 Hillary Clintons, Joe Liebermans, Bidens, etc. in the Senate. That’s sure to advance progressive values on choice, war, the environment, and civil rights, right?
Whoops. Nope, turns out they all support the same thing our enemies do. And we’ve pushed out good progressive candidates in our rush to get as much power as possible as fast as possible.
The argument is right insofar as the best way to protect and advance progressive values on choice and civil rights is to gain progressive majorities in the House and Senate. However, it’s not right in that the best way to do so is to gain Democratic majorities. Judging from recent evidence, most Democratic politicians will vote with their Republican friends on most issues, and will never oppose them on any major civil rights issue.
All smoke, no fire.
Thanks for saying what I’ve been thinking for some time but was too timid (intimidated?) to say. And for that, shame on me. Good for you.
The real problem with his position is that it isn’t even self-consistent.
Kos says: “And yet HRC is fundraising for Chafee because he pays lip service to gay equality? Why do groups like NARAL and HRC have a hard time grasping the big picture?”
The Democratic Party is by and large just paying lip service to gay equality. If the HRC shouldn’t support Chafee, then they shouldn’t support the Democrats, either. Some Democrats have been at the front of the struggle for gay rights, but the Democratic Party as a whole is nowhere to be seen, unless you count the bullshit non-stance of opposing gay marriage but favoring civil unions which is adopted by spineless power-seekers on election day. cough cough John Kerry cough cough
Toss in other “special interests” like women and racial minorities and — holy cow — that’s the majority of the population that’s getting the bum rush from the Democratic Party. If that isn’t the “Big Picture”, what is?
The cognitive disconnect with the Republican talking point at work here — and that would be the idea of “special interests” when we’re talking about the majority — is that when your “special interest” is your personal safety, livelihood, freedom, and other basic human rights, the Big Picture doesn’t mean shit. Gays represent the extreme case right now in terms of facing actual threats to life and limb, but not so long ago, and assuming we don’t count NOLA, it was African Americans. Just try to imagine the message that Kos and his cohorts are sending: Forget about your safety and livelihood for awhile and trust us to get back to you when it’s convenient.
Excuse me? Is anyone dumb enough to buy that? From politicians?
The Big Picture here isn’t that the Democratic Party can’t cater to special interests. It’s that the Democratic Party has swallowed GOP agitprop hook, line, and sinker, and has completely lost sight of the fact that “special interest” is a GOP codeword for the overwhelming majority of the population. The “mainstream”, in the eyes of the GOP and their Democratic dupes, consists exclusively of white, Christian, affluent, heterosexual males — which is a minority group.
The reality-based Big Picture, as opposed to the Kos/DLC-based Big Picture, is that the Democratic Party is chasing a minority demographic to which it has absolutely nothing to offer and in doing so it is abandoning the “special interests” who collectively make up the majority of the population, slowly resigning itself to irrelevancy.
The Democratic establishment is horribly mistaken if they think the absence of a serious third-party candidate in 2004 means the end of Nader-like spoilers. The only reason we got a one-on-one match between the Dems and the GOP in the last election was because George Bush was so incredibly horrible that no one wanted to take the chance on the Greens or some other third party. In 2008, the GOP will cough up some perfectly sanitized candidate without four years of presidential mismanagement behind him and people will feel safe going to third parties again. And the GOP will win. Again.
At this point, I’m beginning to think that the best thing that could happen to the Democratic Party would be for it to field the quintessential “moderate” DLC candidate and get their asses kicked all over the country by a high GOP turnout and a boycott by all of the country’s “special interest” groups. Evidently, only a miserable, humiliating, total defeat is going to get the Dems to quit smoking the GOP crack pipe.
Womens reproductive rights is NARAL’s raison d’être. Expecting them to endorse an anti-choice candidate is just plain silly.
Markos is a Democrat first, and a progressive second. He has always stated such. For him, regaining power is the only goal. Yet, I can’t help but point out that filling the congress with DINOs hasn’t worked. In fact, I would contend that the so-called Blue Dog Democrats do more damage to the party than does the GOP.
Christ! If you don’t like the party’s platform, get the fuck out and go work for your corporate masters. I would rather have unified minority, than a luke-warm majority willing to carry water for the opposition (cough Reagan Democrats cough).
Keep in mind that controlling the agenda is only half the battle; we have to be able to muster the votes in congress to enact legislation — a super-majority if we want to avoid a veto. So we control the committee assignments and the agenda. Great. Doesn’t mean we’ll actually enact any new laws favorable to the progressive movement, does it?
When it happens that a Democratic candidate’s platform coincides with NARAL’s, terrific. If not, so be it. We can still be friends and work together when we happen to be rowing in the same direction.
I wonder if Markos would be singing the same tune if we were talking about the ACLU or PFAW?
And I agree that Markos is going way overboard with the snarky shit, and I’ve said so before. It’s too bad he sometimes can’t see past his own ego. I don’t think I’m going out on a limb when I state that I believe Markos likely has his eye on future control of the DNC.
Anyone care to contradict me on this? I’m bracing myself for the bitch-slap.
This isn’t dKos. We don’t bitch-slap here.
Well, I wasn’t going to post anything here or over at kos but after reading and rereading both threads I feel compelled to say this. Booman, I highly respect you and your site. You know that without it being said. I also admire your tempermant and tolerance here. It allows for more civil discourse.
Only one thing I am going to disagree with and that is your feeling that you MUST crosspost anytime a Kos discussion comes up here. You see where that went rapidly over at the kos thread. I have been on the receiving end of flames for disagreeing over there. You even defending my “honor”(you knight in Shining Armour you…lol).I am appalled that anyone over there would accuse you of baiting people to turn away from Dkos and come over here. Those people surely don’t know you at all or your history of posting there. I used to be concern that the likes of Addison, Armando and the clique of elitist psuedo-intellectuals would invade Booman and ruin it. I no longer have that fear. They are happy to be where they are, the sheeple they have become, just like the kool aid drinking rightwingers. It’s a shame because I strongly feel we need each other. Instead of unting the dems they are pushing us away to the point they we seriously need a third party.
Guess I am just rather disgusted with the sheeple mentality but it just makes me appreciate the tolerance and openmindedness that is so refreshing here. Now can we get on to more important things? We have alot of work to do.
It really took everything I have not to comment over there, especially after several commenters called this site basically a bunch of lefty losers. I have decided though not to hook in over there.
I am appalled that anyone over there would accuse you of baiting people to turn away from Dkos and come over here.
That is their mentality. They really believe that they are the shepards of this vast flock of sheep that don’t have a brain in their heads…
Thinking that someone could …”lure”… away posters is ludicris… and a whole heap of self reflection. Take a moment and read the Newsweek article… is reflects this mentality… Simon Rosenberg elected to nothing that I know of has made himself the self appointed spokesperson of the Blogosphere “cuz” he knows Kos… now these morons have decried that the blogosphere is not leaning to the left… and I take it that we are all suppose to follow their orders…
Bravo, Booman. Bravo.
I wouldn’t waste my time crossposting over there, though. Trying to confront Markos, Armando et al. about their take on women’s rights, etc. is like trying to confront the Christian Right about something like … well … err … uh … women’s rights, etc.
Anyway, thanks for giving us a nice alternative. Much appreciated.
By the way, this pretty much sums it up for me:
The Democratic Party is a pro-choice party, it is a gay rights party, it is a civil rights party, it is an environmental party. We have room for some representatives that don’t share our views on some of those issues, but we should not recruit them in blue states, nor should we show them preference in contested primaries over candidates that believe in the party platform.
Not because I care deeply about the Democratic party platform, but because I care deeply about women’s rights, gay rights, civil rights party and the environment. I don’t value these things because I am a Democrat. But I usually vote Democrat because I value these things.
And that’s where I think Kos’s priorities are seriously messed up.
Some 25% of House Dems are anti-choice. The party has never taken a stand on gay rights. The party has given up on civil rights after declaring victory. The party has caved to corporate interests at the expense of the environment, the poor, workers….
Once upon a time, the Dems may have been these things. No longer.
The great irony is that Kappa Kappa Kos believes that it doesn’t matter what Democrats stand for, as long as they’re Democrats. And anyone who wants to stick to values can f— off.
Well, all that shouting has made it crystal clear to me: Daily Kos is not part of the reality-based community. Every time I start to believe otherwise, they do it yet again. They insist on kicking the voters for not toeing the line. Maybe their line is in the wrong place.
“Kappa Kappy Kos” was an off-the-cuff snark about the frat-boy atmosphere that dominates dKos threads, and not meant to imply a racist agenda through the acronym. Maybe I should have called it “Alpha Omega Kos.”
Anyway, just to clarify.
More like Delta Tau Kos (Delta House from “Animal House”).
Toga!
Toga!
Toga!
I’m guessing Armando will play Bluto.
So interesting! I read this earlier in the day, as well as the then-short diary at dKos. Just went over there again to read, now that it’s 300-plus comments.
The differences are quite notable. Long answers in both places, but here they have original substance. Too many posts over there are just information copied from elsewhere. Or sniping. I read through as much as I could, but gave it up about 15% of the way through.
Along the way, I had the temerity to downrate several rather nasty comments made by Armando (who does seem to have the classic litigator ego profile). If I show up on your doorstep in a couple of days, Boo, just let me hide under your desk for a while.
please don’t insult litigators everywhere by comparing them to Armando’s ego. Good litigators know a hell of a lot about human nature, the art of persuasion and above all, when to shut the f–k up.
Well, it seems to me that litigators and doctors (especially some surgeons) have very strong egos and frequently a kind of god complex. Not necessarily a bad thing, given that their work may mean the difference for someone between life and death, freedom or imprisonment.
But the mindset and tactics that may work well in the courtroom are not always appropriate in more general discourse.
One of the best litigators I’ve ever met, a very senior partner in a very prestigious firm, is exceptionally quiet and mild-mannered. Meet him without knowing what he does, and you might think him a Casper Milquetoast.
and no offense, of course, to any that are present, they probably are that way because nobody in their right mind would actually submit to med school hell unless they had a very serious need to be a very serious doctor, if you catch my drift.
I will be very happy when the med students and I part ways. They’ve made many a bio or chem class into a uniquely stressful experience. Those who are mellow and might want to be doctors, yeah, we decide early that we’d rather pour pure bromine on our eyeballs than risk becoming people who cry over getting a low A on a chemistry exam.
As for Armando, he’s just gotten more defensive over the past couple of years or whatever. He used to actually present decent arguments in between the snarky comments. Now he’s forced to rely on painful intellectual contortions rather than ever admit that maybe somebody has a point.
Armando’s nowhere near as bad as the scrubs that seem to think they need to come to his defense anytime there’s any mud slinging…
It gets like the west side story over there– you’re critical about one person and it’s like this crew of e-thugs with switchblades dance on scene– with the “i’m gonna’ armando you”… and other witty man-crush-isms.
as for doctors– forget them and the science; become a communications major and drink beer– enjoy your education…
gotta’ love a career in mass media… we get our revenge by making the populace dumber than we are.
All this manly bonding on Kos. They are all manly men in the prime of their manliness…who needed the “pie fight” ad to reassure them of their raging, um, heterosexuality.
Yeah, heterosexuality, that’s it.
I’ve got news for the Kossacks: I’m the Alpha-est male of them all, and no need to prove it. These chaps are chimps who are defending the beta chimp (Armando) so they can have the honour of grooming him later.
But perhaps I’m just picking nits 🙂
from litigators to chimps… we appear to be devolving, uh… I mean, unintelligent designing…
How about a Planet of the Lawyer Apes? “Get your paws off me, you damn litigious ape!”
The alienation part isn’t even the worst of it, the worst part is the fact that doing this sabotages the things these groups are trying to accomplish.
Whether Kos likes to admit it or not (repeated gatekeeper posts) he is in a position of incredible power. Rather than writing a front page entry taking the HRC and NARAL or any other progressive/liberal special interest group to task he ought to be talking with them and bringing them his/the community’s concerns. Instead their reputation is tarnished to the tune of 800K hits a day.
So what if Chafee votes for Frist, what Republican wouldn’t? As you correctly noted the alternatives at this time aren’t great in that state. So unless a good candidate steps up we shouldn’t be trying to knock chafee down a peg, there are bigger fish to fry.
If we don’t figure out the whole my issue is important to me and your issue is important to you but we can work together on both dynamic we will never win. Period.
Howdy,
First post over here. I’ve been visiting Booman Tribune more and more often and thought I’d sign up eventually. The “reasoned” debate on this and some other posts over at Kos moved me to do so now. I’m KMc over there, and spent some time in the midst of the slug fest on this one. I tried to sign up as KMc here, but the email enabling me to sign in vanished into the depths of cyber space, so here I am as KMcC as I would have been at Kos if I hadn’t miskeyed in the first place.
Welcome to BT! Make sure you drop by the Froggy Bottome Cafe diary and introduce yourself!
Thank you. I’ll make a point of doing that, but it’ll have to wait for tomorrow’s edition. It’s been a very long day, and I’m no longer anything like coherent. I just wanted to make sure to sign up over here while this thread was still active.
Welcome Kelly. It is always a pleasure to meet new members here. Just pull up a lili pad and sit right down and start your ribbiting….:o)
Yes please visit the cafe…..tell us who you are, if you will, and again welcome.
Welcome to the site, I see Cabin Girl has already noticed you and invited you to the froggy bottom cafe.
New members are invited to post something about themselves on the FBC so please do.
I can fix your name if you want to make it the same as at dKos. But maybe you don’t want that since it was miskeyed. Let me know.
Thanks. If you would be so kind as to change it to the KMc, I would appreciate it. It was a mistake originally, but I’ve had it long enough now, that I’ve gotten used to it.
is that you created an account on September 3rd using that name KMc. So, what I did was set your password to: kelly.
You can sign in and then change your password to something else. You’ll get the name you want and a lower user number too.
Just logout, and log back in using the KMc name with the new password.
Got it. Thanks!
Welcome to the Pond KMc :o)
Glad you decided to sign up tonight.
Bin Laden is running? Okay. What else did I miss this week while I’ve been live blogging the Roberts coronation?
hey booman!
i was proud of you today over in the thread to this crosspost at KOS today. i read the thread at work this evening. i thought you were great.
i also contrasted the thread here, with the thread there and i hope others (who have time!) do the same.
the frog pond beats hell out of blaze orange any day of the week.
keep up the good work and maybe i’ll buy a t-shirt for the holidays!
R
I’m back!!! Hardly looked at a computer all summer– how nice! But back to school now and sitting in front of a computer every day, so I finally can get back to BMT.
As the “union president” BooMan referenced here, and as a teacher of government and politics, I can support 100% what BooMan is saying about interest groups (like NARAL and like NEA). We are interested in ISSUES, not parties. We count votes, plain and simple. And believe me, when we can steal a couple of “R”s on our issues (choice, public education), we have to stand by them when they are up for reelection. At least, as organizations we do. Personally, I couldn’t vote for a Republican, even a moderate like Arlen Specter who has been there for my ORGANIZATION over the years, if he was the only candidate on the ballot. Of course I voted for Hoeffel. But my organization endorsed Specter and helped him generously with his campaign funding. That’s what special interest groups do. Not to understand that (as, apparently, Markos does not) is a surprising sign of naivete.
BTW: BooMan– are you backing away from Bobby Casey? I thought you were convinced he was the way to go… I’m curious where you are vis a vis Casey v. Pennachio these days.
he was the way to go, I thought he was the most likely to win the seat and I still do. If anything has changed it is Santorum’s numbers, which are so bad that he can probably be beaten by any credible Democrat.
I’ve always said I would vote for Chuck, and I will.