[Historical note: Indentured servitude, which Stu correctly labels as slavery, also existed in the U.S. before black slavery … they were the Welsh, the Irish, and so on . . . Now, from the diaries by susanhu w tiny edits. Stu always — and fearlessly — reveals the unspoken reality.]
Like an alcoholic, the United States can never forget its history. Or its long addictive history of slavery and its urge to return to human bondage for profit. (The following covers too much ground and it wanders a bit, but bear with me, please)
The personal history of an individual person cannot be erased or ignored. So it is with Nations and the soul or culture(s) and the institutions that make them up. Everything we do as individuals’ stays with us and we become what we have done. What we do forever becomes a part of us. The United States has a centuries long history of Slavery. Slavery has existed for a longer period of time since the settling of this country than since the time it was “abolished”. Slavery and the using and abusing, the demeaning of people for profit is still a part of American culture and will always be. It is a cultural trait much like a character trait in an individual. Character traits are not easily changed. Traits are not meant by nature to be easily changed. They are permanent. There will never be any change in the negative character of any nation unless there is a painful realization of the trait i.e. what we are as individuals and as nations.
Of course there are other conflicting character traits that make up the culture of the United States. One is the high value placed on Freedom which conflicts with the value of Equality and these two conflicts create the vagaries of language, the convenient confusion that allow for the oppression, the inequality of minority groups for the self serving freedoms of the “wealthy landed gentry” of the South and North.
The impulse of slavery, the intention, the urge for Slavery lives on. Slavery did not end with the Emancipation. Nothing ends abruptly. Slavery has shifted and morphed, sometimes submerged itself since the civil war.
Today, Slavery exists worldwide and is well documented. Some estimate that 27 million people are slaves
Slavery exists in various forms and it exists on a continuum. There are East European girls (among many others) forced into prostitution, there are slave driven clothing factories all over the world, there are human slaves in the jungles of Brazil who have been kidnapped into forced labor. It is everywhere. In a world that is becoming more and more fundamentalist and capitalist, it is thriving.
In the United States indentured servitude followed slavery immediately after the civil war. Indentured servitude is simply another form of slavery and is the form we are closest to returning to today albeit in a new, altered form.
Slavery had been denuded in the United States but has never been destroyed. The impulse, especially prevalent in the South, has been uncovered and given new life by a strong gust of wind and rain from a Hurricane called Katrina. The Hurricane has blown off the phony façade of racial equality. Racial inequality is observable to the naked eye. Why do so many Black people live in segregated areas in Chicago and New Orleans and so many other cities in the United States after 140 years since slavery ended? It is because slavery has never ended.
Slavery has changed; it now has a modern more obscure, harder to identify face. It is obvious. In our very language and manner slavery and prejudice hides. We pretend it’s not there. Liberals and conservatives are afraid we might have to ask the question…Why are so many black people poor? And the answer might be: They are poor because they are inferior. They are not as intelligent as white people.
Liberals cannot stand the possibility that this could be the answer. So they approach blacks with delicacy. They are careful.
Conservatives are more forthright having consciously come to the conclusion that blacks are inferior. Liberals feel “confused” and don’t want to have to address the question. The question should be asked. The answer might be surprising.
There are different kinds of intelligence. How intelligent is it to make an entire race of people slaves for 300 hundred years? What is intelligence?
If human beings knew what intelligence was, we would become aware how utterly stupid we all are. Humanity is entirely disturbed and perverse. This is a sick Planet. A planet in need of rescue. A planet that cannot rescue itself because it does not admit to itself that it is in danger. It considers its insanity; it’s wars as “normal”. It is not intelligent to war and not intelligent to enslave for the simple reason that it is ultimately self-destructive. Intelligence has nothing to do with education. It has to do with how well an organism is able to sustain itself under the conditions in which it is placed. In a world full of abundance, human beings have chosen to destroy. There is enough for everyone. Greed is a form of stupidity and self-destruction. Slavery, and racial discrimination are self-destructive.
Now, meandering back to the South: Most of the Slave owners from 1619 to the 1860’s were farmers. Most of the Slaves were considered valuable live -stock. As cows chickens and plants were and are being bred, so were the human livestock then. Most valuable was a well-bred, compliant slave, healthy, strong and dependable.
Those slaves who were not compliant escaped, were killed or eliminated in some other way. People were bred to be compliant. Many slaves, early on, were Indians and there were even imported White European women.
But it came to pass that Black slaves became predominant. It was especially because they were displaced. Indians were not considered good slaves precisely because they were at home and not disoreinted in the same way Black slaves were. (Why are so many people from the Hurricane being displaced?)
Until recently it is only been through many generations that one can eliminate or alter a genetic characteristic or trait in the genetic make up of a species though selective breeding. Selective breeding was encouraged and forced by white slave owners on their black slaves with varying degrees of success.
But there is another way to control behavior and social traits and achieve a kind of social acquiescence. This has occurred specifically with the forced adoption of “White religions” by the black slaves.
As with the Catholic Jews in Spain who never told their children they were Jews for fear the children would inadvertently reveal this in school or at play, children grew up believing in Christianity and never stopped because when they became adults they were just as dangerous to their parents as fervent Christians. So it is with Black Slaves. This is most graphically seen with the Mexican Indians and their conquest by the combined forces of the Church and the Conquistadors working in unison. All conquered peoples adopt the ways of the conquerors. Look at modern capitalist Japan and Germany. In any case, authority and control can be achieved culturally. And it can be achieved genetically through generations of selective breeding.
Today the descendants of the White Slave Owners (whose antecedents themselves were once non-believers conquered by Political Christians) are inclined to return to the position they once held as overseers of the South in the swath of destruction left by Hurricane Katrina.
A small population of very wealthy aristocratic landowners with English roots once ruled the South. Their descendants want the land of their forefather’s back.
The Houston Astrodome is like a giant corral where human livestock are held. There are other areas. This from AlterNet:
“But behind the doors of the Astrodome, survival and frustration were the order of the day. Jamel Bell, who fled his flooded Ninth Ward in New Orleans, found no salvation here. “Inside it feels like prison,” he said. At curfew, he says, the evacuees were locked in.”
At the River Center in Baton Rouge, curfew is 10pm. Food consists of Bagel and Orange Juice in the morning, peanut butter in the afternoon and ravioli, corn and bread for dinner. Many people are not allowed to wear gym shoes, instead are forced to wear slippers as gym shoes are considered gang clothing. There are no papers, only 3 television sets and 3 computers for 4.000 people. There is virtually no information. Access is extremely limited especially to non-mainstream media. This has been reported on Democracy
Now!In New Orleans, Private Contractors and Military personnel occupy the city in much the same way that Baghdad is occupied. Perhaps this is protection, the security for the New Slave owners preventing the return of former Black residents.
New Orleans is the testing ground for the new Security State to be employed in other cities where civil unrest or natural disasters occur. Once Black Water arrives in a city, they will want to keep working, they may never leave.
According to Democracy Now! Mexican workers too are being shipped in from Texas to do work in Louisiana and being held in hotels owned by Louisiana Republican millionaire Patrick Quinn. They are presumably paying for their rooms with money earned (are they illegal immigrants?-another form of slave labor) while black people are being held in camps who are seeking employment. Perhaps the Mexicans are more to Patrick Quinn’s liking as workers.
Evacuees are being shipped all over the country with one-way tickets. There is no paid return. Many can leave their camp or their shelter but they cannot return if they do leave. How can a New Orleans native return from Michigan with no money. How can they leave their camp? They cannot and so it is easier to create a White New Orleans, isn’t it?
Perhaps the plan of our Southern controlled United States government (which seems to think it was Jefferson Davis, not Abraham Lincoln who retained the Presidency of the United States after the civil war) is to put these corralled people in the Astrodome to work at something below the minimum wage for private contractors and corporations like Halliburton to rebuild the areas in the south destroyed by Hurricane Katrina so that white people can live on the land their ancestors once owned 140 years ago. Land now occupied by those in the Astrodome. Dislplaced people like those in the Astro Dome will return to their homes-not to live in them but to tear them down and build them back up at below minimum wage so that white and perhaps wealthy blacks can live in them. This, if enacted will become the new indentured servitude and it will be perverse.
It’s basically White’s only or at least wealthy only for those returning to New Orleans. It seems Bush will build first a corridor to the Garden District and the French Quarter in New Orleans, bypassing the flooded area of the Negroes. Mayor Nagin is allowing these people to return but not those of the 9th ward. Should the 9th ward ever become habitable again it will be revitalized by the descendants of slaves for the purposes of providing housing for the descendants of their once white slave owners.
Stu Piddy, thank you for your comments, even though they are sometimes controversial.
You have put your finger on the painful truth of life in America, that land theft and dishonest exploitation of people is ingrained in our national character; we like to think that we can “get past it” and “forget about it” but the truth is that, like someone born with an addictive tendency, the best we can do is stay sober and always watchful that we don’t slip back into the addiction headfirst.
This is what a mature nation comes to realize about itself: that there is no final victory over one’s shortcomings, only continued struggle.
And it isn’t just the South; just about every acre of this country was swindled and stolen from the original inhabitants. Conveniently forgotten, or commonly thought to be “ancient history” and hence irrelevant to the nation’s future. (I am proud to live in Indian Country – upstate New York – where the indigenous peoples are very vocal and persistent in the defense of their rights and some of them are prominent voices on the world stage for human rights.)
Yes, it wasn’t just the South. You remind me that crooked business is pretty much ingrained. Sothern businessman, I suspect have a long history of doing cold blooded business with each other.
This stuff is world wide. You have to go to Norway and Sweded, Denmark and Holland to see where we need to be going toward. There are other places, I’m sure that I’m not aware of.
Stu, I take it that, even though you’ve got the text in a blockquote, the words are all yours?
I still don’t understand. I thought block quotes was just a way of making a pretty square thing around what you wrote. I’m learning.
Yes they are my words.
Most of us use them to set off a quotation from a document of some type.
But, everyone who reads this will FEEL that these are your words… great work, by the way.
It’s hard to write about.
As a white woman, I usually keep my mouth shut about this because its really none of my business, but I’ll give it a try here.
I often have wondered what would change for African Americans if they rejected, en mass, the Christian religion that was forced on them by slavery and began the search for a spirituality connected to their roots.
I say this because of my own personal search to find some authenticity as a woman led me to finally reject the misogyny that I kept finding at the roots of Christianity. While I needed to do this to validate myself, I don’t feel the need to expect it of anyone else, but I still wonder.
I think it is your business, and my business, and the business of every single Amrican who claims to believe in what America stands for. We know how to talk the talk, but we’ve sure got a ways to go in walking the walk: Katrina dramatically reminded us all of that. You raise an interesting question about the role of christianity.
Like you, there was no way for me to find my own personal freedom to become all I was capable of being, within the confines of that particular religious idealogy. as I lived it. Once I finally left it, I was then free to find my own spiritual pathway, which has been the single most liberating aspect of my life, along with recovery from addiction.
5000 peole here. I was able to go into the center after being searched and having to pass through a metal detector. No one asked why I was there. I handed out fliers for our march on the 24 in B.R. on the Capital Steps to coincide with the DC march.
Evacuees were eager to talk to me. I guess because I am from the “outside”. All of them asked me when they could go back to their homes. We chatted about neighborhoods and I told them what I had heard.
The anger is palpable. Barely below the surface. People are really angry, and they are angry at Bush, Blanco and Nagin, not necassarily in that order.
One elderly woman, slightly senile and childlike, was able to make this joke about FEMA relief. I said FEMA moves slowly and it might take a while to get her check.
“As slow as Nagin?” she asked. “As slow as Bush?” “As slow as Blanco?” She looked at me mischievously.
She was arrested, btw, at the local greyhound station, after being attacked by would be robbers. Strange story. There was also the New Orleans female deputy at the shelter whose son was arrested and “beaten” by B.R. police. The son didn’t have an arrest record, she said. Now he does.
It is sad inside. I didn’t want to disturb anyone’s space, as this is their home right now. I spent all my time outside. The FEMA people were obviously overwhelmed with the human need, as I watched one fellow deal with those coming to him with questions.
The Red Cross was busy, but some relief workers sat idle waiting for people to help. They would only give vouchers to those staying at the shelter. Everyone else has to call the 1-800 number that you can never get through on.
Anyone with a strong spirit and a desire to work with people, improvisational skills emphasized, Louisiana could use the help right now.
What would counteract this gloomy description by Stu Piddy is a flood of help from private individuals from the outside, willing to work one-on-one.
The more light that shines on what is happening, the better chance we have to create a different scenario.
Can you tell us what the restrictions are down there for coming and going and more about what people think. Maybe I missed some of your and other peoples posts.
Also I would not mind going there if I knew what to do. I cannot leave for more than a weekend. Can you give me some specifics.
….Gloomaster
Stu piddy,
I’m not sure about housing here for volunteers. But it is something I can look into. I’m not in a position to have visitors, but when that changes, I’ll let you know.
There didn’t seem to be many restrictions for getting into the center itself, except to pass through the metal detector. No one looked at my ID; no one asked me any questions. All of this may change of course. It may get more strict. I almost felt guilty walking around where people are sleeping and families have set up their space.
I helped an elderly, handicapped woman get to the front of the FEMA line. There is much work to do there on an improvisational basis. Someone asked for a ride to Houma. I may give her one in a couple of days.
Everyone there is eager for someone to hear their viewpoints and stories. People are high spirited, and easy to talk to. I’m amazed at their resilience, as many in the media have reported.
We’re considering having our demonstration there in front of the center. Everyone I spoke to was interested in attending.
I’ll get back to you on the volunteer housing.
I’m going back there tomorrow, so I’ll have more personal stories.
Everyone there is eager for someone to hear their viewpoints and stories. People are high spirited, and easy to talk to. I’m amazed at their resilience, as many in the media have reported.
Will you be interviewing people? Do you have a tape recorder? I’ve a nice little microcassette one I would be more than happy to lend you. If you need some help with transcribing the tapes I would be honoured to help with that task.
I think that recording the stories of these people and documenting this is a project of the utmost importance. From very short interviews I’ve seen on TV I could tell that many people wanted their truths to be told and, could I afford to, I would be there in an instant. Please let me know if there’s any way I can be of help. My email addy is colleen at blarg dot net.
Awesome idea, Colleen. Been thinking about getting one. Perhaps I’ll do that before heading out there today. And yes, if I need help with the transcribing, I’ll let you know.
If you can’t, find her one.
Thank you.
You’re welcome to come down and help. I’m sure the red cross could put you up.
to include all young and able bodied folks who have the capacity.
Those of us whose age and condition would place additional burden on already stretched resources can help in other ways, as best we can, and when we are reminded of our limitations, as you have so graciously done, we can acknowledge them with humility, and with what we hope is the same grace, remind any young and able bodied individuals with eyes sharp enough to drive a car that there is a lady who needs a ride to Houma.
And I wish I could have jumped on it yesterday. My car has been acting up. Not sure what is wrong with it. I’m new here in Baton Rouge, and don’t know many people.
I told her I would check in again with her. Greyhound has inexplicably stopped running their buses between Baton Rouge and Houma, for example. To get to Houma on Greyhound, you would have to get an out of state ticket. Kind of crazy, huh. That is what the woman explained to me.
Old men are good at these.
As you get to know people, keep an eye out and take note of who knows how to fix cars.
If there are any media and/or tool stores functioning in Baton Rouge, scheme to make them aware of the car fixers, and the car fixers aware of each other.
Yours is not the only car that will be acting up in that strange and moist environment, and if space and tools can be made available to these fixers, they will be able to remove themselves from the shelters much more quickly, mysterious forces will be awakened, and the lady may end up with a selection of rides to Houma from which to choose.
Almost 5000 people were flown from NO to Austin and ended up at our convention center two weeks ago. As of yesterday, only about 900 remained – most with special housing needs – wheelchair accessible, room for a very large family, etc. And people here are working as hard as they can to get those people into housing ASAP.
At the Astrodome (from the Houston Chronicle today:
Today I took kitchen things to a couple who had just moved into an apartment yesterday. Texas is getting these people into real housing – why the hell aren’t they doing the same in Louisiana? 5000 people still at River Center? That is appalling.
Hey now, first of all, a hell of a lot more people came to Baton Rouge than came to Texas, a lot of themeven before the storm. Second, they are still having all sorts of difficulties with communications and what not there — also, did you see what LSU was doing in the first week? Hell, they even delayed the start of classes for a week. Lastly, I’m pretty sure that LA doesn’t have the mass of open housing that we have here in Austin and Houston, though I could be wrong.
Please don’t diss Baton Rouge, that city’s people have been doing the best that they can. Oh, and one more thing, there are a LOT of people in Texas who plan to STAY here, many of those in LA want to go back to their homes. Why get set up in housing that they believe (rightly or wrongly) that they will be leaving in a week or two.
I’m all for patting Asutin on the back in this case, but not at the expense of a city right in the midst of it all, ok?
It was 5000 last week. The numbers have dwindled to 1400. People want to get out of there. Some are going back to New Orleans, the parts that are being opened up.
But there are evacuees all over B.R. The population of B.R. has doubled. Traffic is horrendous. There are no apartments. None. The Orleans cop I mentioned, whose son was arrested: she and her family are moving into a church shelter. Several church shelters all over the city and in nearby Baker and Donaldsonville. Shelters all over the state, and apartments, the nearer to N.O., are at a premium.
They are starved for information. They heard there are mobile homes purchased for them, but the state hasn’t found land to plant them. One woman said she felt Baton Rouge didn’t want them there. She’s a truck driver, and threatened not to make another delivery to B.R.
State leadership is vacuous. Blanco is into praying publicly. This situation is a tinder box. Who knows if and when there would be a spark.
One young man said he was in Atlanta and learned a company there won a contract to do work here. Another man said he was hired to help contain the oil spils, but is being paid to sit on his butt so far.
The people are angry, upset, and ready for a leader. Whose it going to be?
I was reading your comment that there were still 5000 people there and that no effort was being made to help them find an alternative. Ever since I saw those vast convention centers with wall-to-wall cots I’ve been thinking, OK, it’s good they have somewhere clean and dry to come to, but imagine how it would be after a few days to have your “home” be a cot surrounded by thousands of strangers. It got to be quite an emotional thing with me, worrying about people having a home of their own.
Apologies all round.
No need to apologize. I’m pissed at this state also.
Sorry for the wrong numbers. It was just last week that it was 5000, according to the red cross volunteer. That shows you how bad people want to get out of there. There is a complete lack of privacy. A woman told me you have to have your clothes searched each time you take a shower, which doesn’t make sense, because you are searched to get in in the first place.
The issue is housing. I am guessing and having talked to a few, many left the river center for smaller shelters, and to stay with friends and relatives. Some are returning to Jefferson Parish which is re-opening. An elderly couple told me they were going back to Gretna.
I haven’t heard a single Louisiana politician speak out about the rolling back of the Bacon Davis act, which will result in low wages. Vacuous leadership.
Interesting how many people are saying they don’t want to go back. One of the survivors here that I’ve gotten to know can’t wait to go back – she’s an elderly white woman who had a nice apt in the Uptown neighborhood that wasn’t flooded and wants to be “home.”
The young African-American couple who are giving her a ride next week are going back to assess the damage to their house. They lived on the East Side and the waters were deep there. I asked him today, “Flooded to the eaves, right?” and he said yes.
He’s an electrician – he owned his home and had insurance, but I don’t think he has any desire to live there again. Should hear him on the subject of the Davis-Bacon Act rollback. But all he really cares about is being close to his two sons – one each by two ex-wives, one in Atlanta and one in Houston at the moment. So his decision really depends on theirs. His girlfriend is adamant about not going back.
I’m getting the impression that for all of our (those of us who have never lived in NO) romantic fondness for the character and history of NO, it might not have been such a great place to live for a lot of people.
Janet, the school system in Orleans Parish was a bed of cronyism and corruption, bankrupt and a hell hole. Jobs in New Orleans are service industry related and low paying. Our city “leaders” put all of their eggs in the basket of tourism, and, while the tourists loved the city, most of the people serving them lived from check to check.
But the story of the working poor is a story you can find all over this country, just very concentrated in New Orleans.
Character traits are not easily changed. Traits are not <u>meant by nature</u> to be easily changed.
This reification of nature’s intentions is not borne out by experience. It is a perpetual asserted philosophical fact that is at best a half truth. It persists because it makes a nice turn of phrase.
other conflicting character traits that make up the culture of the United States
The very people who were most interested in “Freedom” (cap F) were also the ones most engaged in slavery or the slave trade.
The impulse of slavery, the intention, the urge for Slavery lives on.
It’s called the divine right of corporations and their managers. The religion of lazy fair capitalism.
indentured servitude followed slavery immediately after the civil war
Indentured servitude arrived with the “settlers” at Jamestown in 1607. Settlers bonded to serve for x number of years in exchange for transportation to America and housing and food for the duration. Most of those in the South came from the Southern counties of England (a result of the Enclosure Laws) and the poorer areas of London. What followed the civil war was debt slavery instead of a time-limited bond. Debt slavery depended on credit at the country store; credit that one could never pay off. However, the storeowner could recommend you to work for a local farmer who would pay down your credit. But the credit was never paid off.
Most of the Slave owners from 1619 to the 1860’s were farmers.
This is true as far as it goes. However, most of the farmers were <u>not</u> slaveowners; the couldn’t afford slaves. And somewhere in the neighborhood of 20% of free (non-indentured) whites couldn’t afford to buy land and worked as farm laborers for smaller farmowners.
Indians were not considered good slaves precisely because they were at home and not disoreinted in the same way Black slaves were.
Exactly, Indians could slip away to their relatives or to friendly tribes. Escape was possible. Not until the era of the Underground Railroad was this a possibility for blacks.
the forced adoption of “White religions” by the black slaves
Actually plantation owners were afraid that slaves would be given ideas about freedom from the Moses story and discouraged the conversion of their slaves. And if a slave actually learned to read and began interpreted the Bible themself, they were trouble. The largest slave rebellion, the Nat Turner rebellion of 1830 was inspired by a black preacher (Nat Turner) whose wacked out reading of the Bible was as wild as James Jones and David Koresh. At the same time, the themes that made their way into the “Spirituals”, the songs of freedom and the Underground Railroad, sprang from Christian imagery. And a couple of West African imams wrote narratives about their capture, transportation, and about Islam. This if far overstated.
Today the descendants of the White Slave Owners (whose antecedents themselves were once non-believers conquered by Political Christians) are inclined to return to the position they once held as overseers of the South in the swath of destruction left by Hurricane Katrina.
This is an unverifiable statement, given that “White Slave Owners” in the South were a minority of whites in the South. And the fact that New England and Midwestern descendents of abolitionists may as well be participating in the rape of New Orleans. Bush’s ancestors were not slaveowners in Texas.
Southern controlled United States government (which seems to think it was Jefferson Davis, not Abraham Lincoln who retained the Presidency of the United States after the civil war)
The Southern control comes from the Dixiecrats being welcomed into the Republican Party and driving the <u>national</u> rhetoric of the Republican Party in the direction of Jefferson Davis. Some of those Dixiecrats are from the South. At least one Dixiecrat Republican Congresswoman grew up in Toledo, Ohio.
This, if enacted will become the new indentured servitude and it will be perverse.
You have much too optimistic a view of how indentured servitude will come about in this country. (1) It won’t be indentured (a contract that provides quid pro quo and has limits); it will revive debt slavery. (2) It won’t be limited to the people who return to New Orleans; it will be the pattern across the US as pay is driven lower and lower. (3) The people who work tearing down damaged housing in New Orleans might not even be from New Orleans; they might be from Plaquemines Parish or Biloxi or Abilene, KS, or Oaxaca.
at least wealthy only for those returning to New Orleans. It seems Bush will build first a corridor to the Garden District and the French Quarter in New Orleans, bypassing the flooded area of the Negroes.
The Garden District and French Quarter are dry because the original settlers built on high ground, not expecting the city to spread into the marshes. They are reopening (prematurely in my opinion) because Nagin sees tourist New Orleans as a way to jumpstart the return of the economy of the city. It is not certain that the 9th Ward will be rebuilt for anyone, because of its elevation and the fact that a lot of the toxic materials might have pooled there as the city was drained.
private contractors and corporations like Halliburton to rebuild the areas in the south destroyed by Hurricane Katrina so that white people can live on the land their ancestors once owned 140 years ago.
The Gulf Coast is like Florida. It has attracted a lot of well-to-do folks from all over the country. Most of them would settle for having their $250,000 house on a half acre back. You overstate the land of their ancestors theme.
Well, what’s my grade? Did I pass? That’s all I want to know? Some of you quibbles really aren’t quibbles at all. I see them as flack. Something that gets in the way of a larger point. Spelling and grammar. I know how to spell. I just don’t have the time.
A lot of the things you are quibbling about don’t seem to be quibbles but agreement. So what’s up with this? Why did you do this?
Tar Heel: This reification of nature’s intentions is not borne out by experience. It is a perpetual asserted philosophical fact that is at best a half truth. It persists because it makes a nice turn of phrase.
Regarding Character Traits. Character traits cannot be studied scientifically. So when a person speaks about them they can only speak about them as they are defined by psychology and sociology which are essientally philosphically rooted and not scientically rooted. Whatever causes character traits to be so difficult to change does not change the fact that they are difficult to change should you agree that we can classify them as a part of human behavior. “Characer traits” is a man madec oncept or idea that helps us talk about something we intuitively sense. You know that’s a pretty stiff standard you are setting. This is not a scientific diary. When you speak about social issues you cannot speak scientifically.
Tar heel says: “Actually plantation owners were afraid that slaves would be given ideas Tar heel says: about freedom from the Moses story and discouraged the conversion of their slaves. And if a slave actually learned to read and began interpreted the Bible themself, they were trouble. The largest slave rebellion, the Nat Turner rebellion of 1830 was inspired by a black preacher (Nat Turner) whose wacked out reading of the Bible was as wild as James Jones and David Koresh. At the same time, the themes that made their way into the “Spirituals”, the songs of freedom and the Underground Railroad, sprang from Christian imagery. And a couple of West African imams wrote narratives about their capture, transportation, and about Islam. This if far overstated.”
Stu Says: It isn’t overstated at all. It’s not well stated. It is absolutely true in Mexico. Now what happened here is different. But it is forced conversion by way of dependency. You can make anyone beilieve what you want if they are dependent on you. And each slave household was different. Had different relationship with slaves and particular slaves. You, I think overgeneralize how the slave owners felt about all slaves. There were all kinds of relationships and those relationships had an impact on other slaves who may or may not have had similar relationsihips with the slave owners. Christianity did not become popular among black people for any other reason than their dependency. It’s the same reason Islam, Christianity and Judiasm continues in the same geographic locations. Children are dependent on their parents and they adopt that world view. Adults who are dependent do the same. We are talking about forced dependency.
I never said that slave owners were in the majority of white people in the South. It doesn’t matter because the culture of the South was that Slavery was acceptable and it was understood that black people were not all human. .Slavery survival was the result not just of the wealthy white owners of slaves but the people poor and middle class who were part of and participated socially and economically in the Slave culture. The South was not as densely populated as the North.
Tar heel (referring to the white descendants of slave owners( This is an unverifiable statement, given that “White Slave Owners” in the South were a minority of whites in the South.
Stu says: I am not referring to direct descendants and I am referring to the cultural inheritance rather than the genetic inheritance of the descendants of the Slave owners. Again you don’t have to own a slave to participate in the ownership of the slave.
A lot of the things you are quibbling about don’t seem to be quibbles but agreement
A lot of the things you are quibbling about don’t seem to be quibbles but agreement. So what’s up with this? Why did you do this?
I don’t like good arguments obscured by side issues, what you call flack. Bringing “nature’s intentions” into it is flack; the whole character traits stuff adds nothing to your argument.
Christianity did not become popular among black people for any other reason than their dependency.
True, but Christianity became a way of conducting conversations behind the owner’s back. Conversations that eventually challenged the system. Children can use aspects of a world view for rebellion.
Slavery survival was the result not just of the wealthy white owners of slaves but the people poor and middle class who were part of and participated socially and economically in the Slave culture.
And that includes the middle class of the North who had those wonderful character traits of energy and initiative and thrift and business acumen. It was not a Southern complicity. It was an American complicity. Emancipation was forced on an mostly cautious and unwilling Lincoln.
I am referring to the cultural inheritance
That cultural inheritance includes all Americans.
In New Orleans, Private Contractors and Military personnel occupy the city in much the same way that Baghdad is occupied. Perhaps this is protection, the security for the New Slave owners preventing the return of former Black residents.
<u>New Orleans is the testing ground for the new Security State to be employed in other cities where civil unrest or natural disasters occur</u>. Once Black Water arrives in a city, they will want to keep working, they may never leave.
The underlined portion is the lead that you buried with your paragraphs about character traits. And those cities could be the one’s where you live–Lawrence, Kansas; Chicago (it’s happened there before); Seattle (it’s happened there before); Kent, Ohio (it’s happened there before).
The difference is that college educated white folk on the information plantation might also be “corralled people” in the whatever sports or convention center to work at something below the minimum wage for private contractors and corporations like Halliburton to rebuild the areas like the areas in the south destroyed by Hurricane Katrina so that rich people can live on the land their ancestors never owned 140 years ago.
White folk cannot be complacent about how “secure” they might be. As I argued, it won’t be indentured servitude (you can work your way out of that or serve your time), it will be debt slavery. With your creditors buying and selling you to who you will work for.
That is the point you buried under all of the Southern imagery.
Yes, there was forced breeding, but there was equal or more amount of rape by white predators.
So if you believe that intelligence of one kind of another was bred out of black people, try not to say that around white people.
Arguments of this kind remind me of a story told by a lady who taught English as another language and literacy to adults.
She was giving a standard speech on the importance of knowing one’s address and how to write, say and spell it, when an older gentleman from a rural area of Mexico interrupted her.
“Little lady,” he said, “Do you mean to tell me that you people don’t know how to get home unless you have these little sticks (letters) on signs, on pieces of paper, in your mouth?
Now I will learn the sticks, but I think now it is for your need, not mine. If I can see the shadow of my hand, I can tell you where I am, where I’m going, and I damn sure know where I came from.”
Ducttape: So if you believe that intelligence of one kind of another was bred out of black people, try not to say that around white people.
Stu
I don’t know if you are referring to what I wrote or some other poster.
I don’t know what was bred or not bred. Only that the attempt was made. I don’t think intelligence was ever a target of white slave owners…to be bred out of anyone.
My whole point, I think is there is nothing but irony. Nothing. What seems to be is often exactly the opposite.
What is intelligence? Good Grades? It is something different. It isn’t getting good grades, it’s being good natured.
No fighting children- lets get back on track to help.I have three boxes ready to go with kitchen stuff.
Where are you sending it? Just curious as to where people are sending stuff.
Why are so many black people poor? And the answer might be: They are poor because they are inferior. They are not as intelligent as white people.
Liberals cannot stand the possibility that this could be the answer. So they approach blacks with delicacy. They are careful.
Upper middle class white liberals who don’t know anyone outside their own class and few people outside their race and whose sole political concerns are global warming and preventing the extinction of elephants in Africa might think this but the fact of the matter is that you’re stereotyping here in a manner I find extremely offensive.
Anyone who thinks that one race (or gender, for that matter) is more ‘intelligent’ than another has some severe problems and the kindest thing to do is reason with them. Start with the established fact that income distribution isn’t a major predictor of intelligence.
I have to agree with Coleen here Stu. Circumstances in life have much less to do with intelligence, than belief systems. That’s why you can have Harvard educated assholes stealing the people blind under the guise of free market economics.
It’s smart if that is what you value, or believe in, but really dumb if you take into account the species as a whole.
We have one planet to share, and really so-called smart people are fucking it up for everyone because of their belief systems. Rapture, here we come.
I don’t understand what you mean. I read it a couple of times and I don’t understand. Could you explain.
Thanks
I don’t think you understand my point or I left it unclear, sort of hanging.
Maybe income distribution is a sign of intelligence. The more wealthy the more likely that there is an absence of intelligence.
The more apt one is to beilieve in the world the more likely one is to think about accumulating money…if that is what the world thinks is important.
I don’t think you understand my point or I left it unclear, sort of hanging.
What I understood is that you were claiming that an undefined group of people you call ‘liberals’ think about the world in a certain way and secretly suspect that the conclusions of The Bell Curve and a couple of centuries of racism have merit. While I agree that there are idiots who do perceive the world in this way I do not believe that most of the people regard as ‘liberal’ do. Most of the liberals I know recognise class inequities in the educational institutions. Most of the liberals I know do not view the amount of melanin in one’s skin as a predictor of anything but complexion.
I was objecting to slamming on ‘liberals’. I don’t mind accurate criticisms but the notion that most liberals secretly believe that race is a predictor of intellectual ability is, I believe, just plain flat out wrong.
Being a rascist isn’t something you have a choice of being. Our culture is racist-It is everywhere in everything and it becomes part of you without your ever knowing it. Culture of course is not uniform so there are all kinds of exceptions but it is generally true more or less.
Well, when I speak of liberals of course it’s a generalization, I don’t like that word …it’ so time worn.
I think that racism is world wide and we are all affected by it and we ought to examine ourselves (should we have the need, interest) regarding our own rascism.
I don’t disagree with a lot of what you say. And it is historical fact that there was an attempt to “breed” successive generations of slaves to possess certain qualities. Compliance, physical strength and endurance, for instance.
This is not unique to the US, anywhere there have been or are today slaves this is done.
However, people who have no moral objection to slavery are less likely than their brothers to have a moral objection to sexual assault against those slaves, so amid all the debate regarding intelligence of black folks, how could I resist?
In the US, as you point out, getting good grades has often more to do with social than academic skills. I myself have often advised young people who wish to obtain good grades in non-mathematical classes to first study the professor, what papers and books has he written, whether used in the class or not, what is his “take” on the subject being studied, his theories, etc. Even the most brilliant students will achieve a better grade if they base their essays and class participation on the professor’s view.
And of course they are much more likely to be in the class in the first place if their preparatory education has focused on the highly developed skills of taking standardized tests.
The only reasonable correlation between learning and ethnicity I am aware of involves studies that indicate that kids whose first languages include at least one pictographic one have a leg up on math.
But even this is only coincidentally ethnic. If the leg up comes from brain patterns stimulated by the processing of pictographs as opposed to letters, it is reasonable to assume that children of any ethnicity who learn Chinese, for example, as children will obtain the same benefit.
What we generally think of as intelligence actually involves independent thought and congenital bullshit filters, and neither of these are encouraged in the US educational system, for any race.
What we generally think of as intelligence actually involves independent thought and congenital bullshit filters, and neither of these are encouraged in the US educational system, for any race.
Exactly why No child Left Behind is a crime against our children.
The teaching of independent thought in our schools might lead to revolution, or a complete upheaval in our social/economic structure, and we can’t have that.
I think intelligennce is pure behavior. That’s the only way to talk about it. Thinking is nothing in comparison. Thoughts have almost no power when they are isolated from behavior. The more base…the more primitive you are in you awareness of your baseness, the closer you are to whatever intelligence you have in my opinion….But that’s just my opinion and it’s just a thought!.
Intelligence is very much connected to emotion, sensation and feeling. It can have almost nothing to do with thinking. Thinking isn’t a requirement for intelligence. It can be helpful, it can be integrated into the emotional, sensational and then it acts as an aid. It is possible to understand without thinking. It’s sensing.