I have had it with offering advice to the Bush administration about what to do in Iraq. They don’t listen to me, or to the State Department, the CIA, our allies in Europe, or in the region. It’s actually counterproductive to offer advice to this administration. It creates the illusion of hope.
But I can say what I would do if I woke up tomorrow and discovered that I was the President.
The first thing I would do is look at what is going well, or what is right about the current situation. The first thing I would identify is that the people of Iraq, who are 60+ percent Shi’a and perhaps 20% Sunni Kurd, are no longer dominated by a Sunni Arab tyranny. That’s good. We can work with that.
There are problems associated with the Shi’a domination of the new Iraqi government and there are problems associated with the newfound autonomy of the Kurds. It makes Iraq’s neighbors nervous. But, taken as a whole, the new power structure is progress. Whatever government ultimately controls Iraq should be as representative of the Iraqi populace as possible, and a Sunni Ba’athist tyranny was never representative. Ideally, the Iraqis would emulate modern democracies and the losers of elections would peacefully accept their hiatus from power and expend their efforts at regaining power politically. But I don’t expect that to happen in Iraq. I expect their nascent democracy to devolve into a new tyranny.
The new tyranny will likely be Shi’a dominated, although the Shi’a’s relationship to the Kurds will likely remain an interesting wildcard.
If the new government becomes tyrannical and it is dominated by Shi’a, it will extend the influence of Iran (a Shi’a nation) westward and potentially cause some instability (Shi’a movements of self-determination) in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and, perhaps, Lebanon. But it will still be a fairer tyranny than the one that preceded it.
Although a Shi’a dominated Iraqi government will cause some instability in the region, I think it will be manageable. It will be manageable both for us and for the countries that experience some uptick in internal dissent.
So, even though we would like to leave Iraq with a stable democratically elected government, we don’t have too much to fear from a Shi’a dominated tyranny. In the 1980’s our biggest terrorism threat was posed from Iranian and Lebanese Shi’a. But it the 90’s and 00’s, our biggest threat has been from Saudi and Pakistani Sunnis. A strong Shi’a government in Iraq will help tamp down Sunni extremism in that country.
So, as President, my first determination would be that we can accept any outcome in Iraq that retains the current Shi’a/Kurd domination of the government.
Shed of any obligation to assure democracy, we can limit our support of the government to preventing any large scale, organized Sunni assault on the capital that would threaten to reinstall a minority Sunni tyranny.
In December the Iraqis will elect their parliament, and then in January that parliament will vote to ratify their constitution. I would keep our troops in place to provide security for these two votes. But in the meantime I would begin planning their demobilization, so that immediately after the ratification of the constitution our troops could begin to leave en masse.
Once the new government is in power under a ratified constitution I would agree to provide money, intelligence, and possibly some emergency crack troops or air power to prevent any coup attempts.
I would keep such arrangements as quiet as possible. The new government can not be, and it will not be in fact, mere puppets of our country. Yet, they will vulnerable to insurgencies for quite some time. I want to allow the new government to take actions that might be morally repellent to the average American (if they thought/knew that we were complicit in those actions). The actions needed to reassert control over Iraq will be neither easy or morally acceptable. We must come to grips with that harsh reality. But we should try to disassociate ourselves with the methods used to restore order. Chalk it up to one of the costs of our irresponsible meddling.
The important thing is that order is restored and that the government is no longer run by a Arab Sunni minority that imposes an iron grip over other sects and ethnic groups.
Now, I’ve stated a couple of times that I would be willing to accept a Shi’a tyranny as an acceptable outcome. But I don’t want that, and I don’t wish it on the Iraqi people. It’s just that I am not willing to sacrifice any American lives to prevent it. But there are other things I can do to try to prevent it.
I would immediately contact the governments of Norway, France, Russia, Japan, and China, and I would offer them a piece of the oil-field pie if they are willing to make an investment in providing security to the nascent Iraqi government. Those that say yes will get some lucrative contracts and those that say no will not. It’s totally up to them.
If I didn’t get enough response I’d even talk to Hugo Chavez of Venezuela.
Naturally, I would do this in consultation with the Iraqi government. I’m not talking raw imperialism here.
What we want is a stable government that can produce a steady supply of oil and gas. We want that both for selfish and for altruistic reasons. That result will best benefit both us and the Iraqis. Sharing the pie with our allies and foes is the best way to create some international support for stability in the country. Lord knows the support is not likely to happen in Turkey (because of the Kurds), Iran (because of a myriad of self-interests), from Syria (because they are still Ba’athists), or from Saudi Arabia and Jordan (because they are monarchies).
The only hope for stability and legitimacy is from the so-called imperial powers and their business relationships with the nascent government.
Now, some people will say that we have no right to pursue any strategic or business advantage out of this morass. We started a war under false pretenses.
I would argue that no President would be responsible if he did not pursue our national strategic and business interests. If I took over tomorrow, our national interests would be foremost in my mind. My goal would be to preserve lives while protecting our national interests. I think out interests would be best protected by opening up the Iraqi contracts to truly competitive bidding, even granting some contracts to our non-competitive foes (in exchange for support of the new government in Iraq).
Our interests (and immense investment) would not be served by allowing an Arab Sunni insurgency to prevail. This is true especially because the Arab Sunni insurgency does not represent the majoritarian will of the people. Because the Sunnis do not represent the majority I think we can prevent their restoration with a minimum of troop strength. The Shi’a dominated government may feel the need to utilize harsh measures to restore order. They may never again have another fair election. If so, so be it. We should not sacrifice lives and treasure to assure the human rights of the new Iraq. Our efforts would not be likely to succeed in any case.
I could say a lot more about the intricacies of the current situation. But I wont. If I were President, I would get our asses out of Iraq by March 2006. I would continue to offer support to the government, but I would not assure them of anything beyond assurances that we will not allow a restoration of Ba’athism.
Gosh… if I was President I’d just say “we’re out of here” immediately.
Sure there’s lots of reasons why that would be “bad” or “lead to chaos” etc etc but the Iraqis are adults and can figure out their own problems without being the “white man’s burden” anymore. And frankly I’m tired of Americans dying and Americans occupying another nation.
I know, I know, it’s “not realistic”. That’s ok – I’m not the president am I? 😉
Pax
…to stay at least until Iraq is stable, if no democratic. The NeoImps say we have to stay and maybe invade some more countries to make Iraq stable and “democratic.” Both are dreaming. The American occupation will continue to worsen the situation.
A plague on both their houses.
If the current Iraqi government knows for a fact that the US is leaving in X many months, and we leave them free to negotiate and deal with the Sunni provinces to their own best interests…. they can probably work something out. Quite likely not without some bloodshed — but that’s happening now anyway. We might not like the results (I know we won’t when it comes to women’s rights), but again, that’s happening now anyway.
Having a firm promise to withdraw (and signs that we mean it), means that at least some members of the insurgency have motivation to wait and see. If we are clearly leaving, then they can crow about ‘beating’ us (they’ll be right, in a way, and it doesn’t do anything to the US rep that isn’t happening already), and then they can turn their attentions to working something out with the rest of the country.
I don’t know what will happen over there. But they have to determine that themselves. And if the current government (or the new one coming in) knows they will have to deal with their internal problems without US guns at their backs, I’m sure they will do everything they can to do just that… one way or another. If they can’t do that without us, they sure as hell can’t do it with us…. it just isn’t WORKING the way it is now. Let them find their own way.
…to me. That’s as close to Out Now! as is logistically possible.
Basically, what you’ve described in Iraq are the details of the quagmire that the Dubyanocchio Brigade got us into. Some, including many Democrats argue that we have to stick around now because otherwise Iraq will be an even bigger mess. Maybe it will. But staying doesn’t guarantee it won’t be a bigger mess, as the past two years have proved.
To cite just one example you mention: the Kurds. It seems more and more unlikely that the Kurds will remain a part of Iraq, and, of course, that could generate all kinds of trouble with the Turks and Iranians. But that’s been the way things have been heading since ’91.
I suspect it will be the Iraqis themselves who ask the U.S. to leave. The question is, how soon? Right after the parliamentary elections next month, or a few months later?
What is needed is not just an exit strategy, but an entirely fresh foreign policy that does not rest on a foundation of American exceptionalism. Sadly, I’ve not heard many Democratic leaders providing even the skeleton of such a policy.
As of last week the “mandate” for the multinational force has been extended for one year.
The U.N. Security Council has unanimously agreed to extend the mandate of the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq through the end of 2006. The one-year extension was approved early to avoid any conflict with Iraq’s December 15 elections. [Un via VOA.]
My husband’s own words since things have deteriorated to the point that we must take what comes our way now are, “If we stay there will a likeness to a civil war that takes place and if we go there will be a likeness to a civil war that takes place.”
“I suspect it will be the Iraqis themselves who ask the U.S. to leave. The question is, how soon? Right after the parliamentary elections next month, or a few months later?”
um, haven’t they been “asking us to leave” since the beginning? I’m sure there are poll numbers somewhere that back this up. The occupation hasn’t had any kind of political legitimacy outside of the green zone for years.
IIRC, about 80% of Iraqis are currently in favor of immidiate withdrawl. If that isn’t “asking us to leave” than what is?
…but I was referring to an “official” demand from the Iraqi government. When a puppet starts talking without the ventriloquist’s voice, you know the end is near.
What a great day Boo, if it was true.
If I were President tomorrow morning, I would announce three simple policies.
One, invite the UN in to help Iraq rebuild, so we could withdraw within 30 days. No American troops, and no American companies in the country after 30 days. We had our chance.
Two, seize 50% of the current Pentagon budget from here on out, and put it into public education, specifically doubling every working teacher’s salary as soon as they hold a Master’s Degree, and paying for any student’s college education as for as long as they get B-averages.
Three, reclaim every dollar of every tax cut Bush ever passed from the people who received them, and charge them 15% interest on the illegal loan from our Treasury. If they flee the country, go get them and bring them back and collect the loan plus interest.
.
TEL AVIV Feb. 18, 2003 — Sharon told the congressmen that Israel was not involved in the war with Iraq “but the American action is of vital importance.”
In a meeting with U.S. Undersecretary of State John Bolton, Sharon said that Israel was concerned about the security threat posed by Iran, and stressed that it was important to deal with Iran even while American attention was focused on Iraq.
Bolton said in meetings with Israeli officials that he had no doubt America would attack Iraq, and that it would be necessary thereafter to deal with threats from Syria, Iran and North Korea.
Bolton, who is undersecretary for arms control and international security, is in Israel for meetings on preventing the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction.
Bolton said Syria would get a chance to prove it was behaving in a way worthy of the international community and that dealing with North Korea had not been pushed aside, but postponed.
Bolton said the United States was striving to get a new UN Security Council resolution regarding Iraq and that the result of the vote would affect the U.S.’s relations with Western Europe and Russia, after the war in Iraq.
Bolton also met with Foreign Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Housing and Construction Minister Natan Sharansky.
Sharansky warned Bolton that the Quartet’s (U.S., UN, European Union and Russia) plan for the Israelis and Palestinians deviated from President Bush’s vision.
Source for story
Hmmm … should read Israeli newspapers more often to learn the details of U.S. future foreign policy. Perhaps we need to read today’s Haaretz what Bush will say tomorrow on exit strategy from Iraq.
U.S. Senate Candidate Jon Tester Calls For Iraq Exit Strategy
“Treason doth never prosper: what’s the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason.”
▼▼▼ READ MY DIARY
That sounds as good as any plan I’ve heard already. One question: can I be SECDEF? You’ll need someone to get those logistical exit plans in place ASAP. If not, then Director of Veteran’s Affairs – I’d love to purge that place and we have to roll up our sleeves to deal with OUR aftermath of this fiasco.
It breaks my spirit to know that any exit strategy has to consider and incorporate some of the original neocon ideals that got us into this mess.
There’s a fine line between idealism and realism.
But there are few Americans who do not embrace the basic tenet: namely that US owns earth and therefore is able to say what it will or will not “allow” Iraq or any other country to do.
That is unfortunate, actually it is more than unfortunate, it is tragic, as it constitutes a graver and greater threat to the safety and security of Americans than any external entity ever could, even on their best hair day.
I agree with that but with the exception that America is also used as a front by a variety of government and private interests to accomplish the same goal. The illusion of American Empire is good cover and the people of the world hungrily feed on that.
a coalition of warlords and profiteer cartels, supported by a populace so devoted to that notion of empire and exceptionalism that they freely sacrifice their own children, their own hope of a future to it in return for some fancy speeches from millionaire minions of the population reduction industry.
As long as even critics of Mr. Danger speak in terms of what US should and should not “allow” other countries to do, and confine criticism of the crusade to suggestions of outsourcing the wetwork, Mr Rove and his henchmen have nothing to fear.
Not even they dreamed they would be this successful.
Each decision that resulted in failure of any degree was another level of success for them.
I still think it’s evil geius at work disguised as incompetence.
A Shi’ia Arab Tyranny? Lesse, there’s Syria. But there they are the minority. I guess Oman would also fall into that category as well. (Alawite and Zaydi, respectively, and different fron the ithna ashrahi Shi’ism that one finds in Iran and Iraq,)
One also shouldn’t misunderestimate the Persian vs. Arab cultural gap. A friendly Iran Iraq relationship wouldn’t be that bad, and may even have a moderating effect on Iran.
However, I humbly suggest that Syria might find itself in a strategic alliance with a Shi’i dominated Iraq- an alliance which could project populist Shi’a sentiments south, towards the oil. Perhaps that’s why the hit Syria bug is gaining traction even with some of the realpolitik crowd.
The Da’awa SCIRI fight is going to be interesting to watch, also whether the Sunnis or the Kurds wind up as the junion coalition partner.
“If the new government becomes tyrannical and it is dominated by Shi’a, it will extend the influence of Iran (a Shi’a nation) westward and potentially cause some instability . . .. But it will still be a fairer tyranny than the one that preceded it.”
Tyranny is tyranny, whether it’s imposed by a majority of a country’s population, or by a powerful minority. “[F]airer tyranny” is an oxymoron in any case.
As to the idea of having the elections take place, letting the parliament get on with voting on the Constitution, etc., you’re talking as if the situation in the country is stable, as if dozens of Iraqis (members of the security forces and intellectuals as well as ordinary people) weren’t being killed every day, along with the dozens of US troops being killed every month.
They can’t even hold a war crimes trial without the defense lawyers being killed and having to flee the country for fear of their lives:
Better to simply leave. The presence of our troops is an irritant that continues to create new resistance fighters and/or terrorists willing to give up their lives to spread chaos throughout the entire region:
As we ponder whether or not this woman is telling the truth, and whether or not that man was radicalized by his detention by our military, consider that we are currently engaged in a pitched battle in yet one more Iraqi city where we are doubtless killing and brutalizing many civilians, and that among the survivors there will be quite a few who’ll decide to follow in the path of those suicide bombers who killed so many people in Jordan.
We should get out as fast as we can.
Here is yet another story detailing what a nightmare Iraq is, even with approximately 140K US troops “occupying” it:
First off, it would not be up to the US to open up any business, to other countries. ( well you know what I mean) Iraq belongs to the Iraqis! This includes their oil. However, I would expect a fair shake on this transaction.
Secondly, I would announce that we will pack up lock, stock and barrel on 1 Jan 1006 and we will be moving out of the area. If I were to leave anyone behind, it would be in Kuwait, not Iraq. If you left troops in Iraq, you still would be defeating your cause. Then we would be sending in a delegation to retrieve their bodies, for sure. I would tell the world I was very sorry for what the previous administration did to the world and mostly to Iraq and it’s ppl. That I would hope that Iraq would do business with us, fairly and equally, as with the world. But it is, after all, their nation.
Thirdly, I would stop all this madness here in America with all the tax breaks for the wealthy. I would get back to the middle of the road for all in concerned. I would definitely start to concentrate on domestic issues and get both houses of congress to get their act together or else, some one would be paying a price. The old saying is, if you want to play, you must pay…and that is in everything. If you own a business, you must be fair to your employees or you would not have a business. I definitely would regulate what the oil business’ are doing in the fashion that they intimidate other countries and most of all us. I REALLY would be for small business! not just in words, but in reality.
Fourthly, I would rescind any and all pardons made by the previous administration, if any were made and start criminal hearings leading to trials to bust those who did this to us, in the first damn place.
Next, I would tell the world, and primarily those of nations at civil war, if they wanted any of the American money, they would need to stop their madness first or they would not get one red cent from us. I would hold every country in the ME, and this includes Isreal, accountable for their actions!
I would be very prudent as to who my cabinet would be. I would want firstly and foremost someone who is of the nature to keep peace the forefront of everything. I would sit down at the UN and say a lot of things that would make them fall out of their chairs. I will definitely be willing to start talks to making peace all over the world. However, I would maintain a very strong and volunteer military. I would make the ppl in the military not afraid to be in it either. There would definitely be strict but fairness as well. There would not ever be torture on the table to even to discuss! North Korea and countries like them would have to straighten up or they would not be allowed an option as towards their citizens..this goes for China and all like them, if they wanted my business. I would stop the borrowing money from them! PERIOD AND AS SIMPLE AS THAT! I would be VERY serious to the nonpoliferation of all nuclear weapons.
I would insure for my domestic agenda to be for the ppl not corps and the wealthy, but actually for the ppl. Taxation would be on a fair basis for all of us. DC would get a seat at the table with their own reps and senators.
I would see to it that our air and water is cleaned up ASAP. Any and all toxic threats to our environment would be eradicated! Henceforth making alternate forms of energy a priority! I would see that medicare and social security was always there and fair for everyone. That every child has an education and college to look forward to, if they wanted it. I would stress America’s striding for more and better sciences and math. and humanitaritan studies. I would insure that row vs wade will always be there for us to depend on….saving lives in the long run..make abortion safe and legal, but as rare as could be for ppl. (( now booman, stop that frowning at me))!
All ppl have rights, not just men..this includes women and children. All races are entitled to their rights as citizens. Inform Mexico and other nations to open up their economy for their citizens so that they can and would want to stay in their own country of birth, to live and prosper.
I would hold a world forum and pronounce to the world, that the previous administration was not doing things in my name! and I would personally face each prisoner in Getmo and elsewhere and apologize to them, personally. I would hold each country responsible for their own wrong doing. I might even give it to the world court to prosecute! ;o)
How is that for starters. I would tell Iraq that they are free now. That I would expect the most of them and that is to be absolutely honest and fair in their government and not to be irrational with it. I would ask that Iran, Syria and all of Iraq’s neighbors be forgiving and not to interfere! I would hold the other countries responsible for their actions towards Iraq! I would hold the UN responsible to see it was done just that way too. I would do the same with Afghanistan, as well.
I would work closely with all branches of the government and have a weekly meeting of said branches to discuss any and all problems facing them and then work on those problems….this is a must! But still maintaining the separation of said branches. I would cut down on waste and fraud in the government from the very first day! I would tell congress that I want one bill at a time..not several with attachments to them sliding through nonsense pork or stupid feces. That I would read each and every thing sent to me to sign on my very own. NOt someone else to dictate to me what I would or should sign. I would cut down on my flying about all over the place and wasting fuel! Some is necessary, but not most of what is happening today is needed, in the least!
I would see that the VA is open and fair and very functionable to use. It is as simple as that. My veterans are my assets for a lifetime of gratitude. Children would definitely have rights! They would not be abused or used or enslaved by anyone!!!anywhere!!!!
Mostly, I would hold my constitution close to my heart and not let it get torn to shreds!
Of course there would be more I would do, but this is for starters. Is there anyone who would wish to be in my government?
Well, I could go on and on, but I think you know where I am coming from. I know, you think I am crazy, but this would be my administration…I am an Independent. Does that matter???!!! :o) Oh, BTW, I would visit Booman Tribune on a daily basis for feed back..how does that sound to you all??!!! :o)
Thanks and have a great day…
welfare thing. I didn’t like the price of gas a few weeks ago and I’m astounded at how fast it declined but a couple things started happening that gave me hope. Hybrid versions of all sorts of things started to make an entrance from the drawing board….fuck this whole America and oil thing. We are destroying this planet and I see no reason why we ought to give this nation any more of an easy out to avoid making the changes that we are going to have to make anyhow someday. The day to change is today for me. Put our farmers back to work with ethanol! Let’s get some damn public transportation up and running! Let’s get Americans biking or walking as much as Europeans do and all be the healthier for it! I for one am sick to death of being a fat ass lazy MoFo American expecting my soldiers to give a pint of blood for my pint of oil and watching my farmers bite the dust.
Written before:
Number one on the list is security:
[Tactical]
Re-task all coalition forces to functional “peacekeeping” and training missions. Meaning securing all borders and transportation routes, and pulling our people back to FOBs. Institute national curfew; restrict movement of private vehicle traffic to 10 hours per day; turn over all civilian police duties within villages/cities to operational Iraqi forces, including Baghdad. Re-task as many air assets as feasible to night cover of transport routes and borders. Ship four divisions from Korea [experts by any measure] for border coverage.
In sum, lock down the country’s borders and transport routes – including the rivers. “Free-fire” policy after curfew. Staging back to FOBs with line-of-sight perimeter coverage for unauthorized movement shifts responsibility for civilians to the Iraqis. A concomitant requirement is full logistical support for their newly-minted forces: personal gear, weapons, vehicles, and pay.
Further, our forces own the night, and the air. There is absolutely no reason for them to continue suicide missions on existing roadways. Nor is there any rationale for our people to operate inside populated areas once the transport routes are locked down and the Iraqi people begin to reinstate local police authority. [And yeah, there’s more].
[Political]:
Like BooMan said, involve the other nations of the world through the UN in the overall peacekeeping and economic development of the country. Leave Iraqi politics to the Iraqis. They have had functional control of their country since the February elections, and have somehow managed to generate a constitution. They are on track to elect their national assembly. Whatever the outcome, it is their decision to make.
[Note: I find it laughable that the only people who fully understand the implications of UNSCR 1546 are the Iraqis themselves. The resolution is controlling on the world stage yet receives limited-to-no publicity here in the U.S.].
Way too much more, but these general policies are fairly simple to initiate right now. In sum make the country safe for the Iraqi people, and leave them the hell alone. They long ago earned the right to self-determination.
Booman,
You’ve gone around the bend.
How about a dose of reality here, what you see happening in Iraq, is exactly, EXACTLY what was predicted would happen if Saddam was toppled.
You have seen the rise of the Mullah-crats, and a lessening of freedoms for the average Iraqi, regardless of sect. Political freedoms? maybe an increase, maybe not. We have seen election fraud in Iraq now too.
Tyranny? You are watching ALL being tyrannized by the Mullahs and religious hotheads, haven’t you read Baghdad Burning, Abu Aardvark, Dahr Jamail, and Angry Arab?
Outside of some odd views on Ba’athism in Syria, which is Shia Ba’athism by the way, vis a vis a Sunni Majority, if you must drag in sectarianism, the plan for a major withdrawl is good.
However, we are in Iraq for commercial reasons. We want ALL the oil and gas for ourselves and those “favored” companies, get used to this. Everything else is a smoke screen and twaddle lapped up so fervently by the Assrocket’s, Reynold’s, Johnson’s, Captain “Queeg’s”, and similar “Only Republican-right or wrong” partisan goofballs.
All of this is academic though. We have Bush, who politicized the war by pressing for a war resolution BEFORE an election thus lowering the argument bar to the level of cheap partisan political hackery. Boo, bush lied, troops have died for those lies, and Iraq is more divided, and more open to extremeism that ever.
How can any of us crystal ball what is going on inside the bunkered up green zone, this “Forbidden City” virtually as removed from Iraq as El Paso, Texas is removed from Iraq. The trouble is, WE STARTED THIS CATASTROPHE, and oh my haven’t we made life so much better in Baghdad, Mosul, Kut, Najaf, Fallujah, and so many other places.
You aren’t going to get anyone in there until we are out of there, it’s that simple…..you better face up to this.
Iraq has been set back 200 years…..and look what has happened to our nation in the process.
Bush lied, the troops died, and Iraq is not better…..it may become better, but it will be a long time coming.
If Iraq is going to be a mullahocracy there is really nothing we can do about it without staying for years longer and making enemies out of the most influential and popular leaders in the country.
Was this predicted? Yes. But my fantasy has me becoming President now, not three years ago.
Ductape’s discomfort aside, we really have very few options or control, but we can make sure that the new government is not held by some Sunni Arab general that will restore the Saddamites to power. We can do this with a minimum of advisors and troops. The new government will probably not be able to govern in accordance with international standards of human rights, but they will have an easier time governing than Saddam did. They will be in sectarian agreement with a larger percentage of their population, thus comparatively less repression will be necessary.
It won’t be pretty, it won’t be what we set out to do. It will be a sad outcome for secularists and most women. But I’m not willing to keep fighting for a different outcome that is unlikely to come about, and would involve a very long commitment, and would make the new government reliant on American power for their internal security.
first off, Yes, I’ll buy a bumper sticker.
Second, I was not sure where you were coming from with your first posting.
We have unleashed a maelstrom for all the wrong reasons, firstly by allowing a titanic power vacuum with an ill-advised “de Ba’athification” of the civil government with nothing that was acceptable to the masses. Secondly, we allowed pandemonium to reign in the streets, and this created the insurgency.
As for a Sunni general, what makes you so sure anyone wants Saddam back? If this Sunni general wins the respect of the masses, are you saying that either we and/or our proxies holed up in the Green Room, err, I mean Green Zone will simply disqualify, or worse, kill him? Is this what you are saying?
Next, you are all hepped up about Arabs and I think you automatically default to the idea, (and you are not alone in this by a long shot), that Shias are Persian. I would remind you that the vast, overwhelming majority of Shias in Iraq are ARABS, and not Persian, and that this is an enduring source of friction between the Shia Iranians and Shia Iraqis for a very long time!
So, while I applaud your fantasy, and encourage you to cherish the thought of both Iraqi self-determination and American withdrawl from Iraq, I remind you that Iraq’s problems must be Iraq’s to solve.
And to think, Admiral Lord Kinross laid out some modest history tidbits about Mesopotamia in his stellar masterpiece, “Ataturk.” How Bush reminds me of the Sultan known to history as Selim the Grim, and considering reports of his deteriorating mental condition from the Moonie Times of all people, I suspect he’s more like Selim the Seventh I think “Grim” was, maybe Eighth, than any of us cares to imagine. Too bad Bush doesn’t care to read much, the old Admiral could have edified Chimpy quite a bit.
So, President Booman, please be more like “The Gazi” Ataturk or Izmet Inonue and less like Sultan Selim, and the whole world will be happier.
Thanks for an interesting exchange.
If you were running for president, and you told me this, I would still vote for Nader. (hopefully Camejo will be running next time, but whatever.)
Why? Because you’re still putting “america’s interests” ahead of Iraqi self-determination.
So what you’re saying is that an undemocratic Shi’a state would be just fine for defending “american interests” in the middle east.
So, you’d leave troops in Iraq until after the new puppet regime is established, and afterwards leave troops the region, in secret, to defend that puppet regime. How is that any different from Bush’s plan? Establish a government that suits our needs, and support it indefinately with US military forces and american dollars. I believe that was the Neocon’s plan to begin with.
“Restore order” by propping up an unpopular and illigitimate government with any means necessary, to defend “american interests?” And “distance ourselves” from it. Maybe fund some death squads with illegal weapon sales to Iran?
But I suppose all that is fine, as long as American empire is secure, and any deaths aren’t on the news, and are mostly foreigners.
No. You’re talking imperialism with deniability. Set up an undemocratic puppet government, and then get their rubber stamp as you sell off their country to the highest bidder. The only difference between your plan and Bush’s, is that you plan on selling it, and he plans on keeping it.
At least your hypothetical administration comes right out and says it.
I think that a democracy would be both “stable” and “legitimate.” A more populist-looking tyrany would not be. A US puppet government would not be.
Finally, the topic of “american interests,”
First, why are “strategic and business interests” american interests? Why is maintaining a powerful empire in MY interest? Why is it in ANYONE’s interest, except for the corporations who profit from it? When did CORPORATE INTERESTES become AMERICAN INTERESTS?
You know what AmericaN’s interests are? Health care. And fair wages. And good jobs. And unions. And peace. Empire has no place in that list. Neither does corporate exploitation, at home or abroad.
How revealing that you aren’t willing to sacrifice “lives and treasure” for insignificant things like democracy and human rights, but you’re willing to stay a little longer, and pay a little more, to protect the business interests of the ruling elite.
On the other hand, I’m not sure why I’m surprised to see such hypothetical selling-out from a hypothetical presidnet. I guess you would BE the ruling elite then, so why the hell NOT expand the empire, and defent corporate interests. I’m sure you would have a hypothetical spot on the EXXON/Mobile board of directors for your hypothetical loyalty to them.
Myself, I’m quite confident that if we were to leave, the Iraqis could govern themselves. Without our illigitimate constitution, without our US-approved candidates, and without our military involvment.
Why is it so unrealistic to think that people can govern themsleves in their own best interests?
Would you accept my nomination for my Sec. of State, Brokenkeyboard? Thanks, I knew you would. We do think alike..hugs Well, I should not be giving my cabinet hugs now should I..;o) Oh hell, why not. hugs….
Responding to this properly might require a whole new diary. But I’ll try to be brief.
In my view, what is best for the Iraqis is for the government that they are setting up to succeed in reestablishing basic policing services, and then to begin to provide governmental services, orderly courts, basic welfare and assistance programs, etc.
For this, they also need money, which can come for a little while in the form of grants, but ultimately must come from attracting investment (by corporations). Yes, those corporations are indispenible. Iraq needs both the investment to help them develop their natural resources and rebuild their country, and the jobs that come with that activity. It’s good for Iraq.
If the current government fails it is not going to help the average Iraqi. Do you want the Sunni insurgency to paralyze that nation, preventing security, reconstruction, and jobs?
Also, the new government will not be our puppets. Even now we can’t control them. Much less so will we be able to control them once our troops leave. Our slate of candidates got about 18% in the last elections and they will do worse next time out. If Baghdad is going to be the puppet of anyone it is probably going to Iran. So, you can forget about us pulling the strings. That doesn’t mean that we can’t provide some help to help assure stability. And that will give us a little leverage, which, by the way, isn’t such a bad thing to have.
You call the new government unpopular and illegitimate. But they are not so unpopular among the majority of the population, and they will have legitimacy after the next elections. Maybe not as much legitimacy as George Bush has. Maybe a touch more. The Shi’a and Kurds want us to leave, but they don’t want their newfound power to be beset by constant car bombings. They want their government to succeed (and so do we). That confluence of interests is the one remaining card we hold.
As for our corporate interests, I am advocating giving up our chokehold on those interests. Moreover, as stated above, only corporations have the capital to undertake the types of huge projects that Iraq needs to contract out. I don’t particularly care whether they contract out to Russia or China, or whether they contract out to us. It would be nice to provide some jobs for American workers, but it is not critically important, especially if it interferes or undermines our mission of getting out and having the new government survive.
It upsets me that we have pursued this war for what appears to be purposes of looting. But that doesn’t make all corporate activity evil. It’s an essential part of the global economy. Exxon and Mobil make the engine of the global economy go. Without that energy you will have more worried than health care. You’ll have another Great Depression. So all these competing interests need to be juggled carefully.
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See start of your discussion on thread :: Why We’re Talking About Impeachment
But unlike in Vietnam, the active insurgency against the government (not necessarily against us) represents a minority (the Sunnis). Therefore, the weight of the population has an interest in preserving the new government, if for no other reason than to provide some security.
The majority of Iraqis want the U.S. Forces out of the country NOW!
March 17, 2005 — An opinion poll conducted in Iraq recently by Zogby International showed that 82 per cent of Sunni Arabs, and 69 per cent even of Shia Arabs, want the US out “now” or “very soon.” The main reason for the high Shia turn-out in the January election was that their religious leaders told them a Shia-dominated assembly was the quickest way to get the Americans out.
The Kurds are a satisfied political bloc, as they continue their status of sovereignty since the end of Gulf War I and the U.S. and U.K. imposed “No-Fly” zones. In addition they are now part of the Central Government in Baghdad and have great political influence, thanks to U.S. and coalition forces. The mixed Arab-Kurd cities of Mosul and Kirkuk will be hot-spots because of Saddam’s historical endeavor to have Arabs settle in houses belonging to Kurds. The oil resources will be worth fighting for. The U.S. and Israel will back the Kurds up to Independence. The development will be closely watched by Turkey, Syria and Iran.
The majority of Iraqis are disillusioned, dissatisfied and will never accept U.S. permanent occupation of cities and/or military bases. The reasoning must be obvious, the U.S. led invasion has worsened the daily living circumstances for most Iraqis. The heavy handed attacks by the U.S. troops in areas of both Sunni Triangle, Euphrates valley stretched to Syrian border and the suburbs of Baghdad and nearby cities where Shia rebel leader Muqtada Al-Sadr controls local government.
The Iraqis where optimistic in the first months after March 2003. The horrible security in their neighborhood leaves most Iraqi families destitute, home bound, still in lack of services as electricity, running water and sewage disposal.
Iraq In cold blood – Abuses by Armed Groups
Timeline of Exit of U.S. and Coalition Forces
The U.S. Armed Forces should be replaced by U.N. and NATO forces, similar to the liberation of Liberia from 14 years civil war and their presence in Afghanistan. All you can do is pray and hope for the best as the U.S. departs from Iraq occupation.
“Treason doth never prosper: what’s the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason.”
▼ ▼ ▼ MY DIARY
Oui, will you take over the FCC for me? Thanks…you do such a fine job, for me anyhow. hugs
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Is ultimate motivator in political activism.
The American Dream as expressed and presented after the end of World War II, permitted another flow of immigrants entering the New World at Hoboken, N.J. That dream and fiber of American society has been abused by all U.S. Government employees from Private 1st Class to the Commander-in-Chief, aka President, who take part in abuse of other human beings, whether by negligence on domestic Human Rights or by participating in illegal warfare across the globe.
«« click on pic to enlarge
The worst we have seen these past 2.5 years in Iraq, hopefully will come to an end before December 2006. I’m glad the first signs we witness in recent days, after the the American people raised their voices on November 8. There is a long way to go, we need to come together and support all persons who will fight the cause for return of our civil rights and take over the White House in 2008.
Best Route for Peace and sense of fraternity in American communities, is to fight for every seat in Congress next year.
Thanks Brenda for Enduring Support and warmth of your hugs, much appreciated.
“Treason doth never prosper: what’s the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason.”
▼ ▼ ▼ MY DIARY
I am very interested in this
尖锐湿疣 性病 尖锐湿疣 咪喹莫特 疣迪 尖锐湿疣 咪喹莫特 疣迪 艾达乐 咪喹莫特 尖锐湿疣 尖锐湿疣 尖锐湿疣 尖锐湿疣