I woke up this morning to this email from my best friend, who spent the holidays in Miami with her second husband and their 4 girls:
Flying home from miami this am. Name deleted told me last night he doesn’t want to live w me & my girls anymore. I don’t know what to do. Please call if u get this. Landing around 10.
Being a good friend, I called even before my coffee pot was turned on. I wondered if it was just a fit of holiday rage, but instead it seems that the mister wants to make all the decisions, and have my friend simply nod her head and say “why of course, dear.” When they first got together, he took charge, arranging for an attorney for her divorce, paying off her bills, flying her places for fun weekends, shopping for new furniture and re-decorating his entire house, and she was just happy to be taken care of. But as time went on, my friend wanted her autonomy back. And that didn’t sit well with the mister. He was bothered by her financial donations and involvement with pro-choice groups; he wanted to be able to discipline her children as he saw fit, often more harshly than he would his own (and this was what set things off last night, apparently); he was weird about the financial split of things (eventually, my friend gave up having her own bank account and left him in charge of all the money). I think there was probably more going on than she’s told me, too. He’s not a bad guy, but he is used to getting his way. All the time. And of course, my friend has seen firsthand how the mister protects his money from the ex-wife, and she’s worried (rightly so, IMO) about what will happen if it’s her turn to be the ex-wife.
Why am I yammering on about this? Because this brings up so many things I’ve wondered about relationships and money. In marriages, does the person who makes more money ALWAYS feel like they are more entitled to call the shots? Does the person who makes less money feel financially compelled to go along with whatever the other one wants? What would the world be like if more women were generally on equal financial footing with men? How would their choices change? Would marriage lose its appeal, and would women feel more free to live their lives the way they want?
And guys, how do you REALLY feel about women who make more money than you? Is it intimidating? Does it make you a little uncomfortable? Would you ever have in the back of your mind (as many women do) that the one with the money holds more of the cards, and can more easily walk away if things go bad? Would it change the way you behave in a relationship or affect who you would date?
I guess what I’m asking is, how do money and power issues affect your relationships, and are they inextricably tied together? Am I the only person who ever thinks about this?
Cabin, tell your friend to start protecting herself right now. If she can’t get her hands on the money, she can get account balances and property appraisals. Don’t leave out retirement accounts and out-of-state property. Does she have health insurance for herself and kids? Is her name on her home? No time to fret over this relationship, it’s time to take action. Even if they stay together, she should have her own accounts, no more laying back and relaxing.
This is completely beyond my own experience, but I do think about this stuff. I think (besides its usefulness) money is mostly about ego.
Already done. (To her credit, the subject line on her email was “legal advice”). She’s grabbing the paperwork the minute they get in the door at home; but she and I are both concerned that he’s already thought this through and started taking steps.
He had this planned. Like Booman pointed out, no marriage ends over Taco Bell.
I am afraid so. I was sandbagged by my ex, but he was slow to grab the financials. When he realized that I had the bank statements, he went after me (what an idiot)…I hope nothing like that is going on here.
She should be extra careful if he owns his own business. I’ve seen many clients prepare for divorces by doing “business succession planning” that doesn’t include the wife.
Look how he planned the end of her relationship. Now THAT is creepy.
This may sound very offkey since you’re worried about your friend’s situation now, but, how could a woman think enough of a man who’d do that to marry him?
If you’ve spent any time a battered women’s shelter, you will know that money is one big way that batterers keep control, particularly if the women have children. The fewer financial options the women have, the harder it is for them to leave. (A side benefit to feminism’s encouraging financial independence for women: British study found the murder rate “for women has fallen by more than 10% because of a sharp decline in the numbers being killed by their husbands or partners” because women have more ability to leave bad relationships.)
Guys like your friend’s husband may never turn to physical abuse but I’m betting she ought to be prepared for plenty of emotional abuse.
It’s certainly possible to have a marriage with equal power and finances but I think for the most part this requires that both the man and the woman agreeing they want that going in and making sure that they keep working at it. I know that I’ve had that from the start but I also never considered having my marriage be any other way. BTW, for the last 20 years I’ve made more money than my husband and it hasn’t mattered because the equality of our marriage was never based on finances.
You’re right about financial options directing your choices. I recently found out that one of my neighbors (she’s 70) and all of her friends had wanted to leave their husbands, but after deciding what they would take with them and what they would leave behind, they realized they had no choice but to stay because they couldn’t afford to leave. And these weren’t even people in horrendous marriages!
I’m glad that you’ve been able to maintain an equalt relationship, but did you start out being the high-earner? Or did that shift over time? I’m asking because I think maryb made an excellent comment about that below.
We were college students — we got married our senior year and then I went to grad school and he worked and then he went to grad school and I worked and then we both worked with both of us making about the same amount of money (which wasn’t a lot). It wasn’t until we’d been married for about 12 years that I started making more than him and for the last 16 years I’ve been making substantially more than him.
For more on this see my comment in the maryb thread.
I am glad to see from your reply to Alice that she wil begin the process of putting her money into her own account immediately.
As tactfully as you can, try to determine the nature of his harshness toward the girls. If it involves hitting them, do whatever is necessary to persuade her to send them to a relative or friend “for a visit” while she addresses this difficult period in the relationship, and while you, and if there are other close friends who can be recruited to the task, convince her to address it by getting the hell out of his reach, and staying there.
I realize my views on this subject may seem extreme and old-fashioned, but these situations are nothing to mess around with, and no amount of new furniture or companionship, promises or apologies is worth the risk to a lady or her little ones.
It is a sad truth that some of my brothers should be allowed no more contact with ladies than lunch in a public place.
Your views are neither extreme nor old fashioned.
They are reality based.
For years I volunteered as a group facilitator working with battered women. I heard over and over again how the envelope of “bearable treatment” was pushed until they were tolerating mental, emotional and physical abuse that once would have been unimaginable. It takes removal from the situation for the real awfulness to become apparent again.
Most of us have lived through bad times, the true horror of which is only seen when it’s all over; while we’re trapped, we cope by minimizing the danger, the pain, the fear, and telling ourselves that we can deal with it. This is a natural and normal strategy, but the friends (or police) who are trying to help must understand that anyone extricating him/herself from a long term, abusive situation is numb, and will downplay the danger.
Better too cautious than too trusting, particularly where powerless children are involved.
I’ve heard that described as a “boiling frog syndrome” (sorry for the unfortunate analogy). If a frog jumps into a pot of boiling water, it knows it, and hops right back out. But if the frog jumps into cooler water, and the temperature of the water is slowly increased to boiling over time, it doesn’t know to get out, and will eventually die there.
I thought it was an especally accurate description of what happens to battered women.
Your analogy works for creeping Fascism, too.
the professional explanation of this phenomenon, which all too often turns into lurid news stories. The courts themselves often return children to abusers, and poor women are frequently unaware of even the scant resources and help available to them, even when they finally reach the point where they will avail themselves.
While frustrating to hear of affluent women, whose options are so much more abundant, yet who allow that envelope to be pushed even to the point of endangering their babies, it does show us that this situation is “no respector” of class nor riches, that the little princes and princes in the mansion on the hill are as likely to hide ugly bruises under their designer silks and satins as the latchkey child in the tenement.
I believe the only solution lies with fathers and mothers, to bring up their little girls and boys to have “zero tolerance” for the behavior.
You’re welcome, and I agree.
People seem predisposed to obey authority. That may have been a good survival mechanism when we were hunter-gatherers, and evolution might have selected for that trait, but mindlessly doing as we’re told has always given exploiters the upper hand. I think obedience must be a reasoned choice, but we make it an uphill battle when society reveres Patriotism, Faith, and our Dear Leaders.
Because I believe that my job as a parent was to send my daughter into the world as well equipped as possible to live out who she is, I did my best to model bodily sovreignty, and assure her that nobody has the right to touch her in a way she doesn’t like, including me. I encouraged questioning and debate, never lied to her, and valued her feelings and opinions from the day she was born. I don’t know any other way to instill “zero tolerance” for abusive behavior, or to encourage the young to become thoughtful and responsible adults.
As idyllic as this sounds, the world she got is still full of towering inequities where the context of power and the power of context pull at our moorings and push us into unexpected paths. She may be no more content or happy than an obedient sheep, but she is fully alive, aware, and kicking against the pricks.
the “biological imperative” (since I had three girls) and tell them as much about birth control as I knew at the time. Now my youngest is a midwife and knows considerably more than I ever did. But at least my grandkids are all wanted and loved, at least by their moms and grandmother.
a loser first time around. Her child was “more than he bargained for” and he left. That child has been loved by other men who have given her time and attention. First was a friend of her mom’s who didn’t make the boyfriend cut but really took care of the daughter by babysitting and taking care of her. He still takes her on camping trips and tries to see her often. Then there was the “significant other” who had committment problems but really loved the daughter. Finally the latter agree to wed and was telling me how much better he feels in the relationship since then.
I can relate completely to what your friend is experiencing because, in my second marriage, I feel like my husband (who makes all the money) holds all the power. He doesn’t act like it, it’s something that comes from me and the fact that I don’t work (though I do contribute through child support payments from my ex)and that my kids who live with us are not his kids and so there is no feeling of shared commitment to them. Again, this comes more from me than from him. He has been extremely generous with them, buying them used cars and paying insurance, contributing to college, paying medical bills that aren’t covered by insurance.
But in my mind it feels as if the kids and I are expected to run the house and take care of all of the maintenance on it because he pays for everything. It often feels like he is the lord of the manor and we are his servants.
I don’t know how to solve this inequity short of going out and bringing in a software engineer’s salary, and with my high school education that’s pretty much a longshot.
We do have a joint checking account, but much of his stock portfolio is still jointly held with his ex wife from over 5 years ago. Second marriages are weird and the boundaries remain unclear to me after 3 1/2 years.
You have mentioned these feelings before, and I wonder if there is someone you could talk to, preferably a pro, to help you work through them.
My own armchair diagnosis is that it has more to do with you not appreciating yourself enough, a condition which can be very painful and frustrating for men, who keep wondering what they are doing or not doing and should be, because a woman (or a man) who is not happy with themselves simply cannot be close enough, intimate enough (in the emotional sense), and it is plain that they are suffering, but again, frustrating, especially when the cause is not known.
It sounds like you have a good man, whom you love. I believe the best thing you can do for him is do not worry about the house or money, but learn to love yourself as much as he does.
I know you are right. I must be very frustrating to live with. It’s funny how we package ourselves into little boxes sometimes, and I have put myself into the one labeled “mother, dishwasher, wiper of noses” and can’t seem to break out.
To him, you are the most beautiful, funny, intelligent and remarkable woman who ever lived, the light and love of his life, who also happens to be a wonderful mother. 🙂
My (always) $.02 — you don’t have to break out because you aren’t leaving anything, you are “adding on.” I know you think that box is cramped and limited but it’s a strong and worthwhile foundation for every change, addition, or remodeling you’re going to do.
Thank heaven for Kleenex. :0)
I’m not there, and don’t really know — but are you sure there’s no committment on his part?
I married a fellow with kids and was fully committed to them. I loved them intensely, and worked intensely to make their lives what they should be. I know quite a few other people, including more than one man, who took their wife’s children as their own, sacrificed for them, and loved them deeply.
One gal I know says, “If it wasn’t for my second husband, my son would have missed out on important learning about what a man should be.”
Perhaps your girls are the love of his life, and he wanted to marry YOU in part because kids came as part of the package. Maybe part of his self-worth comes from doing a great job as a parent, from being a great dad for them.
(Witness adoptive parents, not everyone has to be biological to be a delighted parent.)
Thanks for that. My husband has two adopted kids of his own, but his experience with them has been disastrous and painful. I know he feels commmitted to my kids, but (and this might just be my reading)it seems like it’s more financial than anything else. Which makes me feel guilty for bringing such a financial burden down on him. You know, the more I write about it, the more certain I am that this is all a problem with my perception of things.
I would put a lot of meaning into his making a financial commitment to your kids. My stepfather didn’t pay one cent for anything that went directly to us kids. Just like I believe that this act said a lot about how he felt about us, I would say your husband’s willingness to support your children says a lot about how he feels about them.
You’re right. I think he loves people by taking care of them finacially because he’s not good at emotional relationships. But he’s also got a responsible streak a mile wide, and I worry that he’s just doing what he thinks he has to.
You replied in part: I know he feels commmitted to my kids, but (and this might just be my reading)it seems like it’s more financial than anything else. Which makes me feel guilty for bringing such a financial burden down on him. You know, the more I write about it, the more certain I am that this is all a problem with my perception of things.
With all due respect, do you ever ask him about stuff like this? LOL! And if not, maybe some counseling for the two of you might be an amazing experience — IF you had a good counselor, that it.
One gal I know says, “If it wasn’t for my second husband, my son would have missed out on important learning about what a man should be.”
So true. My sister’s ex left when my nephew was 3 or 4. My sister remarried and her new husband is a wonderful parent to my nephew – better than his biological father ever could have been. He’s helping my nephew grow into a wonderful boy/man and for that I am grateful.
CG, having your friend get any available information about her/their circumstances sounds like good advice. She should get as much documentation as she can without tipping him off, in case its needed later. (perhaps even a photo if she can.) Hopefully assets are in both names. In case she does divorce, she needs to carefully select an attorney and read every word of any agreement that may arise. I work with family court issues (primarily child support) and it is truly amazing how many poorly drafted divorce agreements pass my way. All issues need to be resolved up front, save nothing for later on.
As for my own circumstances, I make slightly more than Mrs.boran2. Both names are on almost everything. (I can only think of one security that isn’t in both names.) We are usually in agreement about financial issues. The job of watching finances fell to me by default because Mrs.boran2 was a bit lax about paying bills when she was the single party girl.
Thanks everyone for all your responses to this. When I re-read what I wrote in the diary, I realized that I was describing a classic control freak situation, very similar to my own marriage (which thankfully ended many years ago). I know that’s what really hits home for me, and at least I have plenty of good advice to give her from my own experience. Heck, she was right there with me when all the crap from that went down, so I know how she feels.
He is more verbally harsh and isolationist with her younger daughter than anything else; the little girl is feisty and smart, and I’m sure that doesn’t go over well. Points for my friend for standing up to him (over a 79 cent taco at Taco Bell, no less).
the marriage ended over taco bell?
no one should lower the boom at taco bell.
Hey, I’m wondering why you’d have to go all the way to Miami to bring up the issue in that particular Taco Bell. What a weenie!
My attorney’s better than his…he better watch out, messing with my friends. 🙂
and I missed it?
No, nada.
But this is funny.
Sorry I’m stuck on the Taco Bell angle. I know this is a serious matter. Believe me, I know.
Okay, now you have me giggling hysterically AND thinking about the PeeWee Herman episode where Mrs. Renee sits on the cake and doesn’t know it and walks away with it stuck to her behind…
Some people told me I had to wait 6 months or a year to date, to “recover”.
I said, “A year from when it ended, or a year from when I knew it was dead and SHOULD end?”
You know, cripes, I knew it was dead at least, oh well, before I married him, yaknow? Say 3 years.
So to more directly address your comment, Why not Taco Bell? Most marriages totter onward quite a long time after they’re over, and the smallest thing will set off the “ending”. In a friend’s case, it was an argument over avacados.
thinks about this! I married at 33 years old for the very first time. My father married five times before he was forty and I experienced first hand how badly relationships and money can go. At the beginning of a relationship starting to look serious I laid it all out there and it was usually a little too blunt for most guys. I was pretty shocked when my husband was the first one to lay it all out there with me financially, emotionally, relationally. We are a team and we need money to live, but happiness is our goal. I tend to most money things because I am a better money manager but money for individuals goes all the way around the family. We talk a lot about what we will do when he retires, thinking about starting a business of our own which would have me spending the hours working there and him having the freer time to pick up kids and such things. God I feel for your friend, it is no way to live though…..she needs to plan very carefully for herself to get what she needs at the close of this. Someone as controlling as he is requires as skillful a hand as can be found. I’m a realist and a survivalist and as you do Cabingirl, I know what it takes to make it in the USA as a single mom and I would say in this instance I would be downright manipulative getting out of the marriage with what I needed to start again. You and I both know that only an act of God will turn him into someone she can count on as an ex. I suppose counseling is out of the question too….always is with the big controllers. I know I just sound too optimistic but I played on this field for a long time and it is another field that requires big girl panties and if some guy tells you that your big girl panties aren’t attractive then tell him to fuck off.
Love the “big girl panties.”
Marriages can be successful with a disparate income, but the key is to be a team- as MilitaryTracy pointed out. In a few days my husband and I will be celebrating our 14th anniversary, and while life has gone nowhere we expected, our relationship is solid and loving. I wanted to cure cancer, but we had a special needs child and I ended up staying at home with her and bringing in no income. He carries the income load on his own, teaching and vying for every basketball game he can get for a little extra cash. I carry the home and child load, which is also exhausting.
Both of us constantly express our appreciation for what the other does. I’ve even acquired a reputation as being quite tight with a nickel, if only because every nickel represents a piece of my husband’s life that he has given up for us. He has always said that staying at home or working is my choice, one he fully respects either way. He is my refuge, and I hope I am for him as well.
That said, your friend’s dilemma is a nightmare. I can only hope the judge will see a pattern- and pin him down for cold, hard cash.
What a good friend you are. Good for you for urging your friend to get her name on things and get things set up for herself.
When my ex and I first got together, he was very picky about the money. He made more than I did, I was taking classes too… We didn’t have much still, but he didn’t let me forget where the money was coming from. It stemmed more from his past, but it did affect our present.
Over the years, things evened out, and we were able to combine our resources for the betterment of us, not him vs. me, as it had been. It should be interesting this tax year, as we’ll probably file jointly to get the most money back. Between refinancings and him buying me out and me being unemployed and me buying a new place, I think we’ll get a decent chunk back. I think we’ll split the refund 50/50… we’ve talked about it a bit already. But in the back of my mind, I wonder if he’ll want more cuz he always earned just a bit more than me. I’m hoping we can just do this down the middle and be done with it. I lost out in the divorce… he got the house, which I couldn’t afford and didn’t want the upkeep. I left with what he could afford and no more, even though it wasn’t fully equal, I knew he could’t afford anything more so I was fine with that. I hope we can get through the tax filing and come out OK… I think we will. Money has always been a funny issue, but I think we’ll still have the greater picture in mind still. I know we will… We just have to. We’re too good of friends to let it split us apart after everything else.
Thanks for letting me rant and vent a bit. 🙂
I’ve thought about those issues a lot (not being married and generally making more money than the men I go out with). And I have no answers (sorry). Almost all of the friends in my life that I had BEFORE I went to lawschool are in “traditional” marriages where the husband makes more money than the wife. The friends I’ve made since I went to lawschool, have financial relationships with their husbands that run the gamut.
Here’s what I’ve noticed about marriages where the woman makes more than the man. Where the wife made more money at the time of the marriage (or at least was EXPECTED to make more money) there seem to be fewer issues. The couple seems to have spent a great deal of time before the marriage talking about this issue and the wife seems especially sensitive to the feelings of the husband. But fewer issues doesn’t mean NO issues. The couples I know in this category with the fewest problems and the happiest relationships married later in life. I don’t usually see the person making the most money ALWAYS calling the shots in these types of relationships because there is a recognition that what the other person is bringing to the relationship is as great as, or greater, than the money.
The biggest problems seem to occur where the wife unexpectedly makes more money than the husband, and in my (limited) experience it rarely works out — sometimes they stay together but are always fighting but often they divorce. In fact I’m racking my brain to think of an example of that working out and I know I must know SOMEONE who had it work out — but I’m drawing a blank. One of my friends at work just announced that she was getting divorced. They had been sweethearts since highschool and are now in their early thirties. She DID tend to call the shots in this marriage — but from what I could tell it wasn’t because she wanted to. She’s a good decisionmaker and very efficient — he’s not. She would have welcomed him making decisions — but he wouldn’t.
Where couples have equal “buying” power it puts a whole different set of stresses on the relationship because in most of those cases both spouses have jobs with HORRIBLE hours.
In my own dating life, I’m always constantly amazed by how my earning power as an adverse affect on men. Sometimes I keep what I do a secret just to get to know the person better before they figure out our relative financial status. I’m pretty happy being on my own and not having children wasn’t going to ruin my life, so I’m OK with being single in order to avoid these problems.
Where the wife made more money at the time of the marriage (or at least was EXPECTED to make more money) there seem to be fewer issues. The couple seems to have spent a great deal of time before the marriage talking about this issue and the wife seems especially sensitive to the feelings of the husband.
I agree with you; I think many marriages can’t withstand that dramatic shift in power.
Re the dating thing, it amazes me how uncomfortable many men are with the idea that a woman might be on equal or greater economic footing.
Here’s where I think we second-wave feminists had a real advantage when we got married — we were very conscious of power dynamics. There was no way that marriage for me was going to be anything but an equal partnership and I would have never had a relationship with any man who couldn’t deal with that. The actual case of who makes how much money is really secondary to the issue of actually believing in that you are creating that partnership of equals in the first place.
RIGHT ON!
Now could a few more of the guys (obviously I’m not talking about any of the ones who post on BT) please catch up with that concept?
Absolutely!
I wish I were a second wave feminist.
The downside is that everybody blames you for everything that hasn’t been fixed yet and that you’re starting to get a lot of creaky joints.
It’s not fair but I think the burden is on the woman to make it clear to any partner exactly what she expects, to make sure that what she expects happens, and to get out of the relationship if it doesn’t. Given the history and structure of our culture, undefined dynamics in a relationship will always turn out to favor the man.
I’m thinking of fall 1993: the boy who sat next to me in English class was a Rush Limbaugh fan, and we liked to argue politics. He kept calling me a feminazi and I always wanted to hit him when he did that. Maybe I should have but good girls don’t hit people, right?
You’re absolutely right about relationships. I’ve seen friends marry and be absolutely thrilled when their husband does a bare minimum around the household, and brag about what a good husband they’ve got. What the fuck? I’m not going to get married until I find a man who’ll do my dishes and wash my clothes. I’m only half kidding. And I’m not having kids because I have seen too damn many women get stuck with 90% of the child care and then fawn over their husbands when they grudgingly contribute that 10%. Fuck that.
There is only one reason that the over-a-decade-old insult still bothers me and that is that I have never really had any real connection to a… feminist tradition. Or whatever. However you would say it. I really envy those of you who have. I don’t know where to find it for myself.
I’m not sure exactly what you are looking for in terms of “tradition” but some things that might help would be connecting with some ‘third wave’ feminists.
I don’t know if you go to any feminist blogs but if you don’t I think that’s a great way to start making a connection. Here are some to try (and their blogrolls will give you a lot of others to try).
Feministe
Amanda Marcotte at Pandagon
Mad Melancholic Feminista
Doing some reading about feminism and by feminists is always good. If you’d like to get a feel for some the ideas and passions of 2nd wave, I highly recommend Robin Morgan’s “Sisterhood is Powerful”. I can’t begin to tell you how much this book meant to me when I first read it.
Thank you so much for the links. I’ve been reading and this is just the sort of thing I’ve been looking for (not hard enough, apparently!) I will put the Morgan book on my reading list, too.
I’m glad the links were what you were after. I think you will find there is quite a community out there for you to connect to.
As it happens, I do know a few couples where the wife started making a lot more money after they’d been married a long time. All of these marriages seem to work really well, but they all also seem to share in common the fact that the wives and husbands all seem to harbor deep feelings of appreciation for each other. One of the very successful wives says of her husband (who manages their affairs), “He makes me possible.” One of the husbands who worked for years and now is supported by his successful wife says, with a look of amused wonder on this face, “I’m constantly wondering, how did I get this lucky?” They take care of each other, they are very loving, which is not to say they don’t ever argue or snipe, but the general tenor of these relationships is. . .appreciation and gratitude and a desire to serve the other. Or so they seem to me as an outsider looking in.
That’s good to hear. I KNOW I must know couples like that — I think maybe they just don’t talk about money to outsiders and that’s why I can’t think of them off the top of my head. As far as I can tell, communication is the key. Each party needs to understand why the other party appreciates them — and its not usually for monetary or other “worldly” reasons.
Each party needs to understand why the other party appreciates them
I think you’ve hit on something vital there.
God, what a gorgeous phrase that is. Unrelated to money and all. I love it. It’s going into the quote book. Thank you kansas…
I used to be in a “man’s job”. I got so darned sick and tired of the reactions to it, if I went to a party and people said What’s your job? I’d say, You know I do that 40 hours a week, can we talk about hobbies or anything else?
Drove me nuts. So tired of squeals, “Ohhhh, you do that?” At any rate, I thought if I could establish a relationship on another footing, perhaps it could amount to something. I can relate to you being in the same boat with the money thang.
Oh good god no. I think about power relations constantly. Both inside of personal relationships and how power flows in the larger social structure. Most of my personal philosophical explorations start with deconstructing power relations.
Money = power. Yes, they are inextricably tied together (at least for all practical purposes, I’m not making an essentialist argument). That relation is right at the base of our social organization, and practically every other kind of relation we have must negotiate through it. The person with the money almost always also has the power, and it’s just a matter of whether they decide to share it and to what extent. Ime, good people are not powermongers, but there are not a lot of good people.
There’s also the problem of self-definition. Few people manage to define themselves apart from whatever it is that they do, whether it’s through their roles as parents or their occupations, and money often serves as a mechanism for reinforcing power relations through identity — ie, if whatever you do makes you a lot of money, or even just more money relative to a partner, then it’s very easy to get it into your head that your opinions & decisions should count more than other people’s. It’s very easy to get an inflated sense of self-worth (fake, but still powerful). The converse is also true, and when you don’t make much money, or any money, or have to depend on someone else to make the money, it’s very easy to develop a depressed sense of self-worth, and feel that you must cater to the person with the resources.
I wish more of the men would speak to this:
I had a somewhat eye opening experience one day. I have two very close friends. One is a straight woman who is also a lawyer and is VERY successful. One is a gay guy who is a stock broker and does OK. They (for reasons too complicated to go into) don’t speak anymore but I’m still friends with both. One day the guy asks me if the woman friend is seeing anyone and I tell him about a guy that she’s gone out with a couple of times but it doesn’t seem to be serious. And then he starts spouting off about how she’s never going to find a serious relationship unless she stops putting money at the top of every relationship. Totally confused (because this is NOT how I read my woman friend) I ask him what he means. He says that she would ONLY be interested in marrying for status — that she HAS to have a man who makes more money than her and has more status and that she would NEVER look at any man who made the same amount of money as her much less someone who made less. I was shocked and amused. Shocked because I couldn’t believe that he thought this — she and I have had numerous conversations over the years about men. The reason she tends to date “powerful” men is because they ARE THE ONLY MEN COMFORTABLE GOING OUT WITH HER. And she seldom likes them. I was amused because, well — this clearly wasn’t personal to him — he was gay, he didn’t want to marry her. But where did this come from? I think it had nothing to do with sexuality and everything to do with the power of money. And the fact that she makes more money than him causes him to see her in a way that doesn’t really match reality.
It may still have been personal to him, although in a step-removed sort of way. In his role as a man, whether queer or not, there still exists the pressure to define himself according to material things like his earning power. This is a pressure for many men, just like it’s a pressure for many women to define themselves according to how attractive they are and/or the “quality of the mate they can catch”, y’know? Self-definition is bogged down with a lot of gendered expectations, and it is exceptionally difficult to break out of that, even if one’s queer and/or non-traditionally gendered.
Not sure where this ties in, but I’m at the age where I see a lot of women who divorce their husbands to “trade up” for a guy with more money. I’ve never really understood that line of thinking, but I think it’s pretty common.
Yeah, I think so too. Ime, it’s fairly common even among lesbians, and this includes contexts where both women are feminine-identified, so there’s no man involved even in the gender-performative sense.
I suspect there are interesting sociological trends in the explanations but that, like most other things, the “whys” of it are somewhat different each-to-each. As to trends, I guess at things like: some people are probably just security-seeking, and gender isn’t really at the base of that; others are probably externally identified in their sense of self-worth, so landing a mate with lots of resource power is something they feel is evidence of their increasing success in life and that’s how they feel good about themselves. And still others may feel social pressures to mate up or pair off as part of the expectation of being a “fully-actualized adult”, but not really wish to do that on a subconscious level, and so seek to remedy a deep sense of unhappiness with material comfort, &c.
Absolutely hate the politics of money in most scenarios.
I have so much to say .
Does your friend love this man?
Are her kids college age? Do they get anything from their real dad?
In NH the divorce laws are that one is only responsible for what ones name is on regarding mortgages credit cards, loans etc., Big change since my first marriage in 1971.
Knowing that, I got married after 25+ years as a divorcee, and will not put my name on anything jointly. Maintain separate bank accounts- bills are paid accordingly- he owns the home, he pays the house bills, I buy groceries and maintain my personal needs-meds, credit cards etc.
Not the way I wanted it but when we first married we had a joint account but he was a drunk then and spent money like crazy. I also insisted on wills being made out before marriage. He also was arrested for a domestic violence issue and I pulled a good amount out of the joint account and opened my own account and that will stay that way. I also got a legal lein on the house (as in one drunken rage he tried to sell it) now he will have to go through me-via court- so protected myself in that regard. But fortunately since he stopped drinking- 14 months sober so far- things are tolerable.
He paid off both our vehicles and use to hold that over my head but then he got arrested for DUI and lost his licencs for 3 years so now I own both vehicles:-)
I am one that learned the hard way about everything, but I learned. We started out on the wrong foot in so many ways and are learning as we go and we are both in our 50s. I don’t put up with bad behavior. He’s learning. We are both learning to be adults.
Marriage is hard work. Dealing with money issues is worse. Protect yourself legally however you have to.
If she loves this guy these things can work out, but she’ll need to do some of the work, legally etc.,.
My good friend and neighbor has an interesting set-up with her husband. She realized several years ago once their son was 18 that she didn’t want to put up with his verbal abuse anymore so she left. But he’s older and has serious (actually life-threatening) health issues and she’s the one with health insurance. So they separated everything else but remain legally married so that he’s not out on the street or dead. She is a person known for her loyalty and compassion.
Now if someone is a control freak,they will use money as the lever,which is why,no matter how good your relationship is,you always need backup,or as my Mother taught me,’mad money’.
This not to say that everyone need be fearful all the time- but planning is always important.
My personal feeling is – plan for if your spouse or partner dies-after all that is always possible. And divorce is a kind of death.
I sound cynical??
Too much experience has taught me that, things can go awry in the blink of an eye.
BTW- very nice thread people- lots of wisdom.
This is NOT a male/female thing.
It is a dominance/submission problem, and it happens when the woman makes more money, too.
Believe me.
Been there, had that happen.
Love conquers all, but only so long as it really exists.
After that…money talks; NOBODY walks.
The only reason that it is most often SEEN as a male/female thing is that in this society, men are still usually the ones who make more money.
That is wrong…and it is changing. AS it changes, the reverse will be seen more regularly. Why? Because it is about power.
From the male and female homosexuals out there…how about it? Isn’t it the same in the homosexual relationships you have seen and experienced?
From those of you involved in extended families that have business or financial ties… doesn’t the one with the most money (or at least the most responsibility for that money) the person who wants to run the show most often?
I think so…
This is not sexism…just business.
“Nothin’, personal, bubba. Just business. BadaBING!!!”
SHOULD it be this way?
Go talk to the theorists.
The fact remains that it IS this way, more often than not.
So it goes.
“And remember…protect yourselves at all times” says the referee before every prizefight.
Yup.
The REAL “sweet science”.
Matrimoney.
From BOTH sides of the ring.
And all four corners, too.
AG
P.S. Is it “marital aids” or “martial aids”? Those letters get to swimmin’ around and I get SO confused sometimes.
Well, now. This is an interesting thread; there’s no perception in the comments that doesn’t ring true for me, with regard to interpersonal relationships, money & power.
It’s all so inextricably, universally, continually entwined; it’s as if there should be a new word that signifies the whole dynamic.
Because this truth is reinforced for me by CabinGirl’s post & also by all of your comments, it’s difficult for me to see any reason to question my choice, made seven years ago, to subtract the ‘relationship’ equation from my manner of being. It’s been a terrific journey, mainly because I no longer take for granted, as essential to my being, the apparently overwhelming natural impulses that necessitate — especially for women — ‘bringing the war back home’, so to speak.
I’ve been very fortunate in my most serious relationships — both lesbian & straight — to approach my partnerships on a multitude of levels beyond what each of us contributed materially. The people I chose to share my life with always understood from the start that their partnership with me involved something a bit more expansive. As soon as it became clear in any one of these relationships that the basis of its dynamic was primarily material, I was done & gone. I always managed to maintain enough of an individual means of autonomy to come & go as I pleased; any income disparity was therefore rendered meaningless.
The only children involved weren’t my own; I never presumed to be more than a guiding hand of care for them.
After over three decades of this, I’ve chosen not to deal with any of it any more. A friend recently asked me how long my intentional solitude would last. My answer? For as long as it works.
Here’s an observation that’s stuck with me over the years. When I was a single parent of three little kids I noticed how much easier I had it compared to the majority of women in my position. So many times these women, and women/mothers in general complimented me on the great job I was doing just for the simple fact of being there for the kids and taking on the single parent role at all. These compliments almost always made me uncomfortable because I had such an easier time of it based solely on my earning power as a man. I had little if any trouble affording childcare, so our lives remained fairly conventional save for no Mommy. Women friends and aquaintences in the same position invariably had a much more difficult time than I did because as women they earned far less than I.
As for relationships or marriages where the woman earns more money, I personally am not bothered or threatened by it. In fact, women who are independant and secure in themselves and go getters are very attractive to me. I’m definetily more interested in sharing life with a woman who is an equal as opposed to a dependant. Or even the other way around. I wouldn’t necesarrily want to be the dependant one. I think relationships and marriages work best when both contribute equally, and not just financially of course.
But that’s just me :o)
http://www.pandagon.net/archives/2006/01/bobo_volunteers.html