There is a lot to reflect on after the Alito catastrophe. There are ideas to hash out about what it all means…for the nation, the party, the netroots, the midterms, the weasel Dems, the standup Dems. I’m mulling it over. I’m going to take some of my articulation vitamins. And then I’ll weigh in on it late tonight. Or tomorrow. Give your take on things here.
One initial thought: a lot of people have a natural reaction that they want to leave the party, or register as an independent, or whatever. That’s a very normal reaction. But my aim is, always has been, and always will be, to never rest until the Republicans are frog-marched out. Anything I perceive as interfering with that goal, I am going to oppose.
Hey, we Independents can still vote for and support Democrats. We just need a good reason to do it, that’s all.
😀
This Independent voted for Dean — but, being a New Yorker, I did so as a Democrat 😉
I didn’t and I’ll admit I was wrong for not doing so. He has clearly been the most sincere and dedicated candidate I’ve seen with time. He is exactly where he needs to be now though.
Absolutely.
Admittedly, by the time of our primary the nomination was certainly decided. My vote was basically an expression of support & gratitude.
Howard was too much of a threat early on and the machine had to media-ize him out of contention…the pricks.
I’m grateful to have been witness & contributor to the campaign — & also to have watched closely as he was taken down. Yet, again, I believe fate’s treated him well.
What are the facts on the ground?
Are there facts on the ground?
the facts on the ground are that Alito has 54 republican votes and at least 4 Democratic votes. He will get a minimum of 58 votes, and perhaps as many as 65.
My guess is that he will get around 60-62. It doesn’t matter. Alito is now on the Court.
Delete this comment if you need to but all I can say is we are, as a country, just plain fucked with this. That’s the only word I can find to do it justice.
fighting this particular rear-guard action.
Meanwhile, the facts on the ground are that confirmation appears imminent and unstoppable.
I am very sad about this, but not a bit surprised.
We should, however, fight right down to the very vote.
Well Boo, it seems it’s many of the spineless dems who are interfering with the repthugs being frog-marched out by all their lily-livered(where did that expression come from?)enabling of all these pricks.
in the long view, its not like I want a country with 100 Democratic Senators. I want two-functioning parties that represent Americans, not their employers. Small businesspeople, not their corporate competition. I want both parties to conduct honest elections, funded with public money, with free airtime, and for them to hold each other to the highest ethical standards.
But I will never have any use for independents or third-parties. They are spoilers and nothing else. They rise up when one party becomes dysfucntional and attract people of that fucked up party.
The GOP needs a third party challenge. The Dems need a grassroots infusion of principle and passion.
Two different problems with two different solutions. I know what the Dems need, and it isn’t for progressives to sit out the elections or go running to the greens. The GOP needs those things. We need to take this party over, and call it our own, and stop looking to Washington and what the Dems there are doing and calling that the Democratic Party. It’s not. It’s the corporate left-wing. That’s all.
I write more about this later.
Well on odd numbered days I completely agree with you but on those even numbered days(like today) when I’m feeling very, very cranky and out of sorts I’m ready for if not a third party at least a complete makeover for the democrats-get rid of every one of them and have democrats-real democrats- who are loyal to a progressive party platform and the people. Not the centrist platform but a true progressive platform that promotes the ideals we all want to see become a true reality someday.
have taken away my privacy and my civil rights — my principles are all I’ve got left.
And I’m not sure I want to be supporting people who want my energy and my money, but could give a rat’s ass about what’s important to me and those like me.
The only way they’re going to get the message is if their support dries up…and if that means another 4-8 years of Republican misrule, on their own heads be it.
See my rant that inspired my current sig. I have no interest in people who see me as nothing more than a warm body and/or a cash cow; I dated waaaay too many guys in that category…
I agree with you BooMan, but I also think that we should be able to find alternatives to the Democrats who let us down, who vote for the Bankruptcy bill & Medicare D & voted against the filibuster today.
With serious primary candidates waging a class war.
But I will never have any use for independents or third-parties. They are spoilers and nothing else. They rise up when one party becomes dysfucntional and attract people of that fucked up party.
But Independents are about 1/3rd of the electorate (and growing)and Independents who make their living in politics, men like like Bernie Saunders and Thom Hartman, are the folks who make the most sense. So, unless you’re calling Saunders a ‘spoiler’ (and I’m pretty sure you’re not) then perhaps you need to more carefully define your terms.
And the Democratic party is dysfunctional, deeply dysfunctional and thus ineffective. We’re not going to make it better or, more importantly, have a decent and representative government until we deal with that fact.
If we get some more Dems like the Dems we’ve already got, what makes you think they are going to frog-march Bushco? Whether people are registered Democrat or Independent doesn’t mean a thing; what counts is who they vote for…
Frankly, if a Repub candidate rose up and convinced me that he wanted to impeach Bush, I’d vote for him. Without hesitation. I’m looking for someone who believes in the Constitution, the separation of powers, the Rule of Law, etc. I don’t care anymore whether they are Dems or not.
Agreed – for sure!
Are you open the idea that some Democrats might also need to be frog-marched out? It is getting difficult for me to tell the difference between some of them.
Are you open to the idea that the frog-marching might be initiated and seriously pursued by non-Democrats?
I can’t speak for Booman, of course, but as for me, if the Democrats ever resort to the sort of corruption we’re seeing from the Republicans right now, I will be among the first to call for their removal. At that point they won’t be Democrats any more.
So many have the same corporate sponsors, though the Dems generally receive smaller amounts. Corresponding level of corruption?
Perhaps something to be examined very, very closely.
Sometimes they do very bizarre things. I’m thinking for instance of Fritz Hollings, who IIRC was generally considered to be one of the good guys, except that he had a very bad name among advocates of consumer rights and was often referred to as (D-Disney) because of his sponsorship of legislation that favored movie studios.
And then there’s Maria Cantwell . . . * scratches head *
LOL – for me it was more *tears hair out *
I find myself considering we have moved from nation-state governance to a corporate-state.
Though I recognize that corporations are made up of individual human beings, as entities, they have taken on a force much greater than any individual or even group. The quarterly bottom line has led to some very short sighted solutions to immediate problems.
I am wondering whether our elected officials are now “Corprocans” and “Corporacrats.” And if they are, what do I do now?
I don’t care what party frog marches them out.
Last campaign cycle I worked for a registered Republican for a judicial position….when I asked him about the Patriot Act ‘sneak peaks’ he said ANYTHING violating the 4th amendment was wrong.
There you go…pick your candidates carefully and frog march them all out.
Oh btw – even as a republican we lost by less than 1% in a 70% dem county – people know…but ’04 was a tough year!
Once there is a Democratic majority it is easier for leadership to keep party members in line because there are more plums to hand out. Once there is a Democratic majority we can focus on the ones that need to be disciplined or kicked out.
I might be more amenable to the idea of a third party IF the Republicans were the Old Republicans. The country wasn’t in danger under the Old Republicans. My goal is to get the current dangerous Republicans out of the leadership positions. If I have to stick with the Democrats to do that I will. A third party would take far too long to get up and running, get funded and win seats. It is not, in my mind, a practical solution. Hard as it might be to carry out, the best plan is to try to take over the current Democratic party.
here
I too want to do whatever will get our country back on track, and the Dems still look like the best shot to me. How long did it take the wingnuts to take of the Republican party? Decades, right? Even on internet time we’ll have to give it a few years before we can take over the Dems.
I do think we ought to make an example of Lieberman, however. There is just no excuse for him
I hate what happened today, however, how can anyone justify abandoning our 25 democratic senators that voted against closure? We saw who ran in the heat of battle in the Senate, and I don’t think we will forget. The same applies to the grass roots. We will see who runs and who stays to fight another day.
I guess that’s how I’m feeling too. We know that 25 of our Senators did the right thing. Some of them passionately worked to do the right thing. These are our friends. These are our allies. I take comfort in the fact that my Senators, in California, reflected the wishes of a majority of their constituents, at least those of us who bothered to call/write/fax/email.
If we want a progressive majority, we have to convince more people to vote for one. We have to figure out some way to better articulate a progressive agenda. The American electorate has had 20 years + of propaganda from the Right devaluing government’s positive role and preaching the unholy gospel of the Free Market. People have bought into this. Disasters like Katrina come along, providing as much as an example of government incompetence as Republican incompetence – so how to explain that it’s the devaluing of government, the outsourcing and the crony culture, that created the disaster? That government isn’t doing enough?
We need more articulate leaders to carry this message, but that isn’t enough either. We have to figure out how to articulate it ourselves and how to communicate it with people who don’t already agree with us.
How do we reach people?
Maybe, in a way, those 25 Senators ARE our third party. We can rally to them, and search for and support more like them.
I have outlined my thoughts to the best of my ability here.
Ditto, Manny. I agree with what you said there.
It is my understanding that many third parties dissolved for the reason that their platforms were adopted. Ex. Teddy Roosevelt and the Bull Moose party. Because of that, I feel it necessary to voice my displeasure w/the dems cowardice and continue to be an independent voter. For that reason, I am getting more and more interested in the Green pary, although, I remain an independent.
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should find themselves facing contested primaries at the earliest opportunity against a candidate who has principles.
Jane Hamsher has a couple of thoughtful things up over at Firedoglake, including suggestions for what do we do now (help local Dems, join Drinking Liberally). Can’t figure out how to link directly on those articles.
She points out that Kerry truly stuck his neck out for us on this one, and that he had no way of knowing beforehand how much passion and energy was truly there. For that, he deserves thanks.
I agree with her that what has happened here is at least the beginning of a shift away from conventional Beltway thinking toward a wider understanding of just what kind of people and support are out here in the real world outside DC.
I, too, am discouraged, disgusted by the Vichy Dems. And while jumping ship to a third party sounds good, I agree with BooMan that we need to stay and rebuild the Dems. Destruction of the Democratic party as a functioning political entity has been one of the Rove/Norquist/Bush/Cheney/Abramoff stated goals. They haven’t yet been able to do it, although sometimes it feels that way. I am not about to give them the satisfaction.
Well put! I will contribute only with a caveat to the Democratic Party, not a dime to the Vichy $%^&!!!collaboratin’ Tory/Loyalists. OK, I know I’m not Soros but I won’t give a dime to the collaborators, if I can’t be assured that, then I’ll just contribute to individual campaigns.
What’s scary is maybe the Loyalists did vote their conscience.
I was proud of the two gentlemen from Massachusetts.
On another note, I’m sure some of you have seen this, if not check it out. An ode to Exxon from Defenders of Wildlife…
http://exxposeexxon.defenders.org/site/PageServer?pagename=exxon_exxonmovie&JServSessionIdr006=f
wya5jzjd1.app20a
It is a pleasure to be in everyone’s company here.
Good night.
The link you’re looking for is this:
http://firedoglake.blogspot.com/2006_01_29_firedoglake_archive.html#113867195405228177
Or you can see my lifts of relevant graphs at
http://dreamingup.blogspot.com/2006/01/last-word-on-alito-fillibuster.html
She’s nailed it, as far as I’m concerned.
I’ve been tackled by keyboard and technical issues here tonight, which may have been a blessing in disguise given my mood. But I missed the bdsm talk in Rub’s daily diary? Will wonders ever cease… 🙂 I was wondering why there was so many more comments in there than usual. 😉
I feel at biit better now, but I’m still having keybtoard conflicts, as evidenced by my unintended typos and extra ‘t’s… My laptop is under warrenty, but I couldn’t deal with it tonight. It make take a while to fix this. If I’m lucky they’ll ship me a damn new laptop and I can make due in the interim. I’m hugely thankful that just last week I got and installed one of the Maxtor one-touch backup thingys. I had needed to do that for too long.
The Dems suck. But I feel I can’t abandon the cause. A third party is just not viable right now. Look at Nader, whom I still do not discount was funded and encouraged by the Repugs. I’ve a cynical and conspiracy-minded heart at heart.
Anyway, thank you all for what you have done and for your words. We are hardly over. We are not shutting down. We are fighting. It will take some time, but it’s about damn time. We will get there, step by step. It’s gotta begin locally, I firmly believe that…
BooMan, that day is coming.
The thing of it is, look who makes up the Democrats’ elected leadership in the Senate (and to a great degree also the House) – they’re predominantly well-to-do, white, men. They have proven by their deeds to have no understanding nor inclination to understand the worldviews of their rather diverse constituent base (or what we’ve been generally assuming is their constituent base). All they need do, as they see it, is to keep us in their back pocket while they go off and play footsie with corporate elites. Perhaps it is more fair to say that it’s this corporate elite that form the true Democrat base, much as it is also the GOP base – with perhaps just a bit more contrived “white man’s guilt” distinguishing Dem-leaning CEOs from their GOP counterparts. To the extent that the above is the case, it follows that the Dem party has only failed us to the extent that we have misperceived them as representing us. They don’t. And I wouldn’t be terribly surprised if the demise of Roe v Wade becomes the spark for all sorts of fundraising and votegetting efforts for the next generation of Dem leaders in much the same way that Roe v Wade’s existence was for the current generation of GOP players. Those who continue to believe in either one of those parties is being punked.
First thing is first. WE NEED TO TAKE OVER at the COUNTY level. Secondly, we need to take the Party resources and use them to educate the American people on the issues. Thirdly, we need to quick personal attacks on Republicans. The Nazi comments need to stop. Fourthly, we need a list of who is good and who is not. Dennis Kucinich and maxine Waters are good. Joe Lieberman and Ben Nelson of nebraska are bad. Fifth we need a face to put on TV. These Dems who are on the news and talk shows are awful. Let us attack them on the issues and not give up. that is my thoughts.
“…my aim is, always has been, and always will be, to never rest until the Republicans are frog-marched out. Anything I perceive as interfering with that goal, I am going to oppose.”
But…BOOMAN!!!
What if it is the Democratic Party in its current incarnation that IS the primary reason that your goal is not being reached?
Whatcha gonna do THEN…???
AG
I remember how well they did with the Iran-Contra scandal.
And I remember how well they did with the assassinations.
AG
When the shit hits the fan, first thing to do is TURN OFF THE DAMN FAN!!!!