This interview can stand on its own.
May I also explain something first? When I put up the poster that Dan Savage and Andrew Sullivan, I didn’t see the image very well. I have TWO problems:
1) I have a very old, very small, off-color, orange-tinted monitor. It makes it very hard for me to see fine images. For example, I can’t see half the print or drawings in the Powell’s book covers I put up. I just hope that YOU can see them!
2) I have bad eyesight and bad glasses. I desperately need to go to the eye doctor but have no money. I cannot read much, if anything, on the Internet. I like to print stories out because I read them printed so much better, but my printer is out of ink. I do 1/100th of the reading I would LOVE to do on the ‘net because I can’t read things on my monitor!
I did not see that the image was from the cartoon. I thought it was an image of an imam with a big turban on his head…. and the image was very blurry and inky. That is all I saw.
Update [2006-2-8 18:24:51 by susanhu]: Explanation: The image I originally saw was on another site, and that site owner had scrunched the pixel height/width to make it really small. That’s why I couldn’t see it well. I right-clicked, saved it, uploaded it, and posted it. And didn’t look at it again. I didn’t realize that — HERE! — the image is so big. I just now looked at it. So, please, my apologies. I am definitely considering removing it. But I would like you to reply to my example of putting Pat Robertson’s image on the poster, as I did in a reply to Ducky below.
That’s one reason I make so many typos and don’t see them….until much later. Because everything I am looking at right now is BLURRY.
It was only later, when I squinted my eyes and put my eyes up to my monitor that I could see the tiny image of what looked like a wick, like from a candle.
Okay? And, if I thought you’d all condemn me for putting up a poster about free speech, I’d have never bothered. Trust me, I watch what I say here about too many things…. I feel half the time like I have to tiptoe around everyone’s feelings, and it’s especially difficult because you all have such diverse feelings, and I can’t possibly please everyone.
Do I feel stupid about it? Yeah, I do. Just like I feel stupid when I forget to log out as Larry Johnson, and post a comment under his name. Besides getting old and having not much to look forward to, I’m ditzy. I try to laugh, and call myself the “absent-minded professor.” (And I didn’t want to admit I hadn’t noticed … I have my pride too. Or did.)
BooMan is very upset about all of this, and — as always — he kindly supports me. But this is too much. And I know he’d rather I NOT POST THIS. But, I thought this young Muslim author was so good, and she made so much sense. You’ll probably all find something very wrong with it. So be it. You’ll probably think I’m making excuses, but it is true. I don’t know why you’re all over me, and not all over Jon Stewart who made HUGE FUN of the whole brouhaha last night. I’m convenient.
But, I am also really hurt — VERY HURT — that you can forget everything I’ve done to fight for the human and legal rights of Muslims all over the world. I won’t list those acts. I have personal letters from the State Department and from the United Nations — on my desk — to prove to myself all of that. And my own memories. Which will have to do for now. And I don’t need this. I’d rather leave this site (which by the way is something I detest seeing others threaten), for my own physical and mental health, than endure attacks, particularly from people who aren’t kindly towards … never mind ….
And Muslims have so many HORRIFIC situations they’re facing. Much, much larger issues than this cartoon stuff. Anyway, please read this woman’s interview. She’s sharp. And, if you must be angry, find another target.
Of note, she is a practicing Muslim, and she points out that there is nothing in the Koran that does not allow an image of the prophet to appear.. That is a “myth.” That is important to learn. I didn’t know that. I haven’t read the Koran. Have you? Did you know that factually, or not?
She was Amy Goodman’s guest on Demcoracy Now! yesterday (the link goes to that transcript). She debated As’ad AbuKhalil, professor of political science at California State University, Stanislaus. He is the host of a blog I often visit because he has news that is often not reported about Muslim persecution elsewhere: “The Angry Arab News Service.” I don’t always agree with him, but damn he is good, and his anger is righteous! He and she argued yesterday on Amy’s show. That’s cool. Amy LET THEM talk intelligently about the problems. (There’s nothing like respectful, rational debate.) Here is the bio that Amy Goodman posted about her:
Irshad Manji, author of the book, “The Trouble with Islam Today: A Muslim’s Call for Reform in Her Faith.” She is currently based at Yale University as a Visiting Fellow with the International Security Studies program. Web site.
This is her bio at the page for her book at Powell’s:
Irshad Manji is an acclaimed journalist, lecturer, and human rights advocate based in Toronto. Recognizing Irshad’s leadership, Oprah Winfrey honored her with a Chutzpah Award for “audacity, nerve, boldness, and conviction.” Ms. magazine has named Irshad a “Feminist for the 21st Century.” She is also a recipient of the Simon Wiesenthal Award for Valor.
The beginning of the CNN interview, the second part of which is below the fold:
PHILLIPS: Well, amid all the rage and violence, you may not know how the protest came to be. Did you know, for instance, the cartoons were first published months ago. So why the anger now?
My next guest is a Muslim who says the situation has gotten uglier than it ever needed to be.
Irshad Mangi is the author of “The Trouble With Islam Today.”
Nice to have you, Irshad.
IRSHAD MANJI, AUTHOR: Thanks for having me, Kyra.
PHILLIPS: So you feel there’s a story behind the story of the cartoons.
MANJI: Indeed there is, Kyra.
You know, a lot of people, as you pointed out, assume that these cartoons appeared overnight, or at least last week. The case is quite different. They appeared way back in September of 2005, and — in Denmark. And Muslims in Denmark at the time did complain, and some of them resorted to peaceful protests in the streets. And a couple of these illustrators of these cartoons at the time reported, you know, vague threats on their lives.
So serious stuff. But nothing like the wildfire that we are seeing today….
The rest of the CNN interview today:
In fact, there’s informed speculation that they may have even fabricated a couple of their own depictions of the prophet. One, for example, showing the prophet with a pig snout, which is insulting enough. And that much more so when you realize that in Islam pigs are considered dirty and forbidden to eat.
The point is, these imams try to do through political manipulation what they couldn’t achieve through the democratic exercise of their freedoms in Denmark, namely, sow the seeds of unrest. And needless to say, they got what they wanted.
PHILLIPS: So why would these imams want to do this? Why would they want to — if this is true, obviously, I wish I could sit down and interview these Danish imams.
MANJI: Of course.
PHILLIPS: I mean, from interviews that you’ve done and conversations you’ve had, why would they want to do it this way? Because, I mean, I know plenty of imams that would never want to incite violence or create something like this. And obviously, you know, there is more, like you say, to just the cartoons. There still is a lot of anger and resentment that is fueling all of this. There’s more to just the cartoons. But why, why would they want to do this? MANJI: Right. Well, there’s a benign answer and more malignant answer, Kyra. The benign answer is that because they couldn’t get the newspaper to be punished or to be shut down or the journalist to apologize at the time, by protesting these cartoons, they figured that they could bring worldwide Muslim pressure to bear to achieve these results.
But what’s interesting is that the journalists are standing by what they did. And the prime minister of Denmark has pointed out that in a free and democratic society, you know, the press operates independent of government. So the government doesn’t have the power to punish the newspaper.
The more malignant answer is related directly to the story that you just ran, that there is deep-seeded resentment and anger against the West. And what these imams possibly wanted to do was lift the lid on that anger — anger, of course, over the Iraq war, over the invasion of Afghanistan, the stories of torture at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo. And so in many ways, we should imagine the Muslim world right now as a large grassy field where the grass is dry. And all it takes is for a match, one match…
PHILLIPS: One little controversy to go. It’s like a domino effect.
MANJI: Yes.
PHILLIPS: Now, Irshad, let me ask you, because when this first came out, I had interviewed a number of different people on this. And a number of people said, well, it’s against Islam. You don’t ever depict the Prophet Muhammed in any blasphemous way. You aren’t even supposed to be able to see a picture.
MANJI: Right.
PHILLIPS: However, I asked you this, I called another imam that I call a number of times about questions with regard to the Koran. Both of you have said that’s a myth. Nothing in the — there’s nothing in the Koran that says you cannot have a picture of Prophet Muhammed.
MANJI: That’s exactly right, Kyra. It’s become a norm. It’s become a tradition. But there is no teaching in the Koran that says this is prohibited. And as a matter of fact, in one of Dublin’s most prestigious libraries, as you and I speak right now, there is a large collection of depictions of the Prophet Muhammed from the 15th century in what was then Persia, what is now Iran.
As a matter of fact, I can argue in defense of these cartoons from an Islamic perspective by pointing out that the Koran itself tells us there will always be non-believers and that it’s up to Gods, not Muslims, to deal with them. And moreover, the Koran tells us that there is — and I quote now — no compulsion in religion. Well, that means that nobody should be forced to treat Islamic norms as sacred. And these are only norms, these are not sacred teachings. PHILLIPS: Irshad, final thought. You wrote in a column that appeared in “The Wall Street Journal”: “Muslims have little integrity demanding respect for our faith if we don’t show it for others, when we have demonstrated against Saudi Arabia’s policy to prevent Christians and Jews from stepping on the soil of mecca. They may come for business trips, but nothing more. As long as Rome welcomes non- Christians and Jerusalem embraces non-Jews, we Muslims have more to protest than cartoons.”
MANJI: Right, that’s exactly right. And let’s also remember that, you know, viciously anti-semitic programming comes out of the Arab world routinely. When have we Muslims poured into the streets to protest that kind of mockery of Judaism? So we really need to kind of confront our own double standards here, and not just blame the West for its double standards.
PHILLIPS: Also interesting. I was reading that Muslims did protest Mel Gibson’s movie because they didn’t like the way Christ was depicted. We didn’t make much of that, obviously, in the news, but that did happen. I thought that was interesting. Irshad…
MANJI: You know, Kyra, I look forward to the day when we also protest the mockery of Jews.
PHILLIPS: Irshad Manji, thanks for your time.
MANJI: Take good care.
Susan,
Please don’t leave. You provide valuable insight and wit here. And it is much appreciated by me.
I missed the whole bruhaha over the cartoon and I’ll stay out of that. But maybe we could all chip in for you to buy a new monitor and get an eye exam/glasses? You are too valuable to lose.
Thank you so much, MLK. I respect your rational discourse here so very much.
…
This is as good a place as any to say I altered the image. I did it solely for the sake of peace at this blog.
Dont you leave Susan!
Maybethis makes some sense
Susan, I didn’t notice the missile thingie either, and I have perfectly good vision. I just wasn’t looking for it, and saw what I expected. So don’t be too hard on yourself.
Susan,
I think you did the right thing for the sake of the community.
People make mistakes and we all should just move on.
Now Susan, go get your ass into bed and tomorrow set up a paypal account so that we can get you a monitor and a eye exam. 🙂
have been put in a position where you feel you have to justify yourself. You, who are exquisitely sensitive and careful with words.
This global cartoon affair is beginning to take on the look of misplaced random outrage. It is as if people are walking around ready to explode with abstract rage and they looking for a place to put it. It has become a magnet.
Thank you, Sybil.
Sadly, as I told someone this afternoon on the phone, I feel more and more like I have to watch everything I say here because I’ll get jumped all over, and it’s a real drag. That’s no way to stimulate debate or learning.
HUGS!
As a woman engaged to a Muslim man I want to thank you for all that you do to educate and help others understand the plight of Muslims here and around the world.
It’s been shocking to me how much bigotry there is against Muslims since the cartoons and the dissent that has risen as a result has occurred. Frankly, I expected much more from people who call themselves liberals and progressives.
I had lunch with my father yesterday after I had spent the morning listening to Martin Luther King’s words and the funeral for Coretta Scott King. I was filled with so much hope from the words of so many who spoke. Then my father knocked on my door and I woke up. My father started his usual spiel to me about going to garage sales, something I loathe doing, and he said I had to be selective, that I mustn’t go to any ‘nigger shacks’ by mistake.
I was incensed, of course, but at 81 I know there’s nothing I can say or do to change the bigotry and racism he has spent his life embedded with. I expect it from my father, a lifelong Republican, a James Dobson Christian.
I expected better from my political peers. I’m also saddened to see so many stoop to the depths of racism there has been since this all began. I’m sickened by it and afraid for us all.
So Susan, let me say once more, thank you for using your position on the frontpage of this blog to help everyone who reads your words to understand what life is for millions and millions of Muslims.
With all due respect, people old than that have changed in their bigotry. My brother and I helped to change someone’s POV about race in the last 1.5 years — and he’s a raving fundamentalist Republican. That woman has since hired a black woman — which is what she was assuring us she would never do — when we both about coughed a hairball.
But you know what we did? We talked to her. In a reasonable way. About why we thought it didn’t matter, why discrimination wasn’t OK, and why we were comfortable with people of different races, how it was like other issues in terms of variety.
You have a right to say to this person, “You cannot talk to me like that. You can’t utter words like that in my presence. It offends me too deeply.” Trust me, I know more than one person who’s conditioned their parent in situations like that. You’re younger. You have the power. They want to see you — they will hold their tongue.
You have a responsibility to the world to say that to him. Every time such a remark goes un-challenged, racism wins. Every time such a remark is challenged, tolerance wins.
You don’t have to be a jerk, or accusatory, when you stand up for your right not to hear language like that. People are resiliant — no matter who they are. They cope with such situations, and they change.
Thank you for reading thus far.
While I appreciate your comment my father’s bigotry and my response to it wasn’t my point. I posted my comment to thank Susan and to say that although I have lived my entire life, all 57 years of it, in a household filled with bigotry and racism I expected more from my Democratic peers who call themselves liberals and progressives.
Since my father was an example of Republicanism and false Christianity I didn’t elaborate on how often and how forcefully I have called him out on his views and his words for the past 57 years. He knows exactly how I feel, he has been levelled by my response repeatedly, I don’t hold back, along with my deceased mother and sister we explained, we ranted and we held his feet to the fire on his outlandish racism. Now that my mother and sister are dead I continue to set him straight everytime he mouths off including over lunch when he said the ‘n’ word.
You have a right to say to this person, “You cannot talk to me like that. You can’t utter words like that in my presence. It offends me too deeply.” Trust me, I know more than one person who’s conditioned their parent in situations like that. You’re younger. You have the power. They want to see you — they will hold their tongue.
I don’t see it as a right, I see it as a responsibility. Your words are too polite, polite doesn’t work with my father, he gets both barrels. Lecturing me on what to say doesn’t really work for me either.
That woman has since hired a black woman
My father was a career local politician. This is exactly the kind of comment he would use. He’d tell us he had hired a ‘negro’ man to clean the toilets in the courthouse. That was his way of saying he’d proven he wasn’t prejudiced against ‘them’, those coloreds.
But you know what we did? We talked to her. In a reasonable way. About why we thought it didn’t matter, why discrimination wasn’t OK, and why we were comfortable with people of different races, how it was like other issues in terms of variety.
I’ve tried being reasonable with my father. He basks in my reasonableness because he looks at it as my being weak. He sees it as an easy way out for him since he hasn’t had to sit through another one of my tirades.
It’s not that I don’t correct him now but the larger point for me is this, I have come to realize he will die a bigot and a racist. I haven’t been able to change that even though I’ve tried for 57 long, agonizing years. I’ve come to the realization that this is one of the areas where my words don’t create change. I’ve felt impotent around this for years.
This is how I feel today, I am saddened by his racism and bigotry and I’m heartbroken for him because I know what a burden it must be to be filled with so much hate and rage against other people because of the color of their skin.
I mentioned in my original comment that I am engaged to a Muslim man. After reading of my father’s remarks when we were at lunch do you honestly think he hasn’t said racists things against my fiance? And when my father calls Muslims ragheads and makes comments like ‘they’ all kill each other and don’t value life like we do in the United States, do you think I don’t tell him how incredibly wrong he is?
I was incensed, of course, but at 81 I know there’s nothing I can say or do to change the bigotry and racism he has spent his life embedded with.
Sorry for the long response but you made some assumptions that were just that, assumptions. Nowhere in this comment did I say I don’t speak up. What I said was there’s no amount of talking or doing that will change his bigotry or racism. I did not say I don’t try, I said I’ve reached a point where I know I won’t change him and his racist views.
I can’t guarantee anything will get better, but we need you in the fight.
It almost seems like people are behaving similarly to animals who sometimes snap at their human companions when sick or wounded. I see many people in real life and the blogosphere who seem in some way “sick” or “wounded.” Pain and frustration seek their own release.
I can speak for myself in that I know I’ve not been my “normal” self since Nov 3, 2004. ‘Course I’ve got a few good friends and a brother or two who’d question just when I thought I was “normal”… ha ha.
But anyway, I think people are just plain freaked out. They seem not to be able to handle one more thing, as I’ve found out in my attempts to discuss (in person) a possible influenza pandemic.
It’s getting to the point that in my personal life I have to be very careful who I talk to, what I talk about, and how I do it. (And I have no intelligent R with which I converse at the present time.)
We all are going to need to do a much better job of looking after each other than we have been doing so far if we’re going to come out of all of this relatively intact.
If anybody’s buggin’ you we’ll just sic this little guy after them. He scared the crap out my sister-in-law when she visited last Dec.
First of all, Susan, you owe no one an apology. Nor should you feel the need to make excuses like bad monitors or needing eyeglasses. I completely endorse the statement on that poster and whether the depiction is Ali Baba or the Prophet makes no difference — it’s just ink on paper, not a slap in the face. People who are offended are too sensitive and suffering from PC dis-ease.
Now, about your needing a new monitor and glasses: We know we can’t contribute to Booman Tribune except for buying bumper stickers because of its LLC status. But, gal, I expect to see your PayPal link by tomorrow morning!
I second the previous 3 posters! Good idea about the PayPal link, Scjt. If it appears, I’ll contribute! As one who needs new glasses desperately myself, I can fully understand Susan’s dilemma. At least I have a good monitor and can read all my stuff on the net … printed, eh, not so much until I get new specs.
Also, I don’t think Susan has anything to have to apologize, justify or otherwise about her view. I was wondering what all the brouhaha was about, then realized that it was about that poster… sheesh.
That was exactly what I wanted to say about the PayPal link. I would love to contribute to a fine new monitor for our very special WebMistress.
Susan, you are the reason I am here and while I don’t always agree with you, I completely support you. Let us help you get the tools you need to continue doing all the wonderful work that you do.
I found a nice 17″ LCD monitor over at newegg.com for $188 plus shipping. There have been times in my life when I shelled out more than that for a stick of memory or a hard drive, and in fact I was sorely tempted to just whip out the ol’ plastic and have one shipped to Susan’s house. The only thing that stopped me is that I’m busy playing a post-release beta version of the Bankruptcy Bill Home Game. (No, I’m not going bankrupt, but I’m feeling the squeeze.)
Give me a couple of weeks and I might just do it anyway if I don’t end up owing a cubic acre of money on my taxes. Susan’s helped me out of a couple of spots in the past.
on Booman Tribune. We don’t need censorship or being overly concerned about political correctness. I would not have published the cartoon. That said, Susan has done something that Denmark and others haven’t done. She apologized! At some point we (in the west) all needed to see the cartoon in question. This is only one of 2 places I have seen it. I join the first person to comment on this in asking (begging) Susan not to resign. You are my hero. You do heroic and vital work. Let’s proceed together. After all if we don’t come together we will come apart. Peace.
and my computer is so old that the rate all button goes away sometimes when there are more than 20 comments.
And I can see that that cartoon is of an Arab man in a turban with a bomb in it, one that was published in the Danish newspaper.
Now you can go and read my comment in the other thread, you have, in my opinion, every right to express your solidarity with the cartoonist. You are an administrator of this site, and it is your prerogative, and BooMan’s, to decide what you want on your front door, how you want to define the site, and express your beliefs.
But I will repeat what I said in another thread, I feel that my home has been defiled. I know, it is not my site, and I have no right maybe to consider it to be my home. But that has been the feeling that has come after almost a year.
I have expressed my feelings at length in the I take offense thread and since they cannot be contained in words anyway I will not repeat feeble and unsuccessful attempts to try.
I hope you will reconsider your desire to post the image in your town. I do not think you can understand why that might bring consequences you would consider unfortunate since you say you worry so much about Muslims, maybe you will take my word for it that such an act could bring you sadness, for instance if a like minded youth were encouraged by your posting the picture to express some solidarity of his own on the next old man in a turban he happened to see.
I hope you will reconsider your desire to post the image in your town. I do not think you can understand why that might bring consequences you would consider unfortunate…
Then we all better just shut the fuck up! Because somebody somewhere is going to act out their mental illness if we defend women or Blacks or gays or freedom of speech or… Some deranged youth is going to hack up people in a gay bar. Or beat homeless people with a baseball bat. Or burn down churches…
It would not be a poster on a telephone pole, old friend, that ignites that kind of madness. It’s Rush and Hannity and Savage and Coulter and Robertson. All brought to us by the amplification and implicit endorsement of the mass media.
I’m really angry with you for dumping this line of crap on Susan. If I put up an Impeach Bush poster in my neighborhood, do I need to worry about some youth beating up some frail old liberal?!
she has the right to express her views, and encourage others to post hate cartoons. That is her free speech.
Maybe you will say I have no right to feel hurt by this. Did I not know her beliefs about Muslims before now? Yes, but not to the extent, and I will suggest to you that you have no knowledge about violence against Muslims that occur every day, and are never reported because people do not wish to make things worse.
Still, it is her free speech to advocate that. And whether you are angry or think I have the right to feel hurt or angry by it or not, it is my free speech to express those feelings.
I’ve posted here, many times, that I am a proud heathen.
I find all religion an utter waste of time, heart, mind, and money.
I live all around churches and while I shake my head at the misuse of money, time and property — which could be used to help the poor and disabled — I leave them to their business. They have the right.
But they do not have the right to tell me what I can say and where I can say it. That system of government is a theocracy, and I do not live in a theocracy.
I can watch Jon Stewart and, like I did last night, watch him mock the entire controversy and laugh my head off at his satirical skit that contended that cartoonists caused Adolph Hitler to invade Poland, and start WWII. It was satire, and it was funny. To me. You might not have laughed — but I really don’t care how you would have reacted. I have the right to watch him and laugh if I want to.
And I find it utterly sickening that these misguided cartoonists (yes, I think their cartoons were rather lame. and in poor taste) in Denmark are now in hiding, fearing for their lives. Europe has a very serious problem with some groups of Muslims — a few — who refuse not just to integrate into the culture of their new home nation, but also to be violent and even terroristic against fellow citizens in their new home countries.
And your comment about my having to expect “consequences” for putting up that free speech poster is rather, to say the least, unnerving.
yes i heard a weird threatening you better watch out message in there….but my final thought on it was how childish….just like i feel about the arabis newspapers who are now publishing anne frank cartoons to get even….what a bunch of immature assholes.
Ummm yeah… a bunch of fucking stupid ignorant American rednecks might decide to kill more Muslims. Those were the consequences Ductape was speaking of.
Or are we all so willfully ignorant now that we can’t even grasp something as simple as that and instead interpret it as the ‘crazy Muslim Ductape is threatening Susan’? Wow.
I am referring to anything in any post of mine that you see as having threatened anyone.
Forgive me if you did paste the link and the text already, maybe it is my browser, but I could not see it.
I understand how you are feeling. At least, I emphasize with how you are feeling.
Susan has a high fever and the flu and should be in bed. She says she didn’t realize that the poster was of Mohammed, or see the fuse, or know that it was one of the Danish cartoons. You can decide to not take her at her word, but I thinks deserves to be taken at her word.
She noted in the diary that I am upset by this. For clarity, I am not upset with Susan. I am upset because I had hoped we would not fall for the trap set for us by certain clever intelligence officers, and wind up tearing each other apart over the issue of free speech v. cultural sensitivity.
I wanted to treat it like we treated Shaivo. That is, I wanted to ignore it. But I do not tell people what to write about, nor do I express my critiques of other front-pagers in public. That is an issue of common courtesy and mutual respect.
In any case, here we are…fighting with each other over the exact issue that was planted on us for just such a purpose.
Are we all bigots or are all Muslims nuts? Those are your choices ladies and gentlemen. Fax your answers to Donald Rumsfeld, c/o the Defense Intelligence Agency. Onward Christian soldiers.
In the meantime, I would hope that people would take a step back and give Susan the respect she has more than earned. At least, that is how I see it.
She noted in the diary that I am upset by this. For clarity, I am not upset with Susan. I am upset because I had hoped we would not fall for the trap set for us by certain clever intelligence officers, and wind up tearing each other apart over the issue of free speech v. cultural sensitivity.
Don’t even think about leaving Susan, but you can’t take the new monitor. A writer must suffer for the art to feel, to relate, to have typo alibies, to build the rage to enact change….well, a new monitor might not compromise it too badly.
😉
I’m with you Boo. My personal opinion is that I glanced at the pic not knowing what it was and had to look a few more times to know what it was. No outrage from me for Susan’s actions. I direct mine back to the handlers.
in my opinion, makes her views very clear, views which, I repeat, both you and she have every right to hold and to express.
The image has been up now for over 18 hours. I have every confidence that had you found it something that you did not wish on your front page, you would have removed it long before this.
I know that you and susan have both put a great deal of work into the site and I do not think that either of you would be so careless as to post text you had not read, nor images you could not see.
your every confidence is wrong.
That’s all I have to say about it.
something you did not wish there, you would just leave it? I am sorry, I find that so astounding as to strain believability.
You have put a lot of work into this site, far too much to allow anything that you felt was not what you wished the site to have there on the front page.
Text you have not read, and an image that neither you nor susan, but everyone else was able to read and see?
explained here
“You supply the cartoons and I’ll supply the war.” I think it was Charles Foster Kane who said that.
Actually, it was the 3-D version of Kane, William Randolph Hearst.
Then perhaps she should refrain from posting about incredibly complex and inflammatory matters until she is no longer sick & able to think clearly.
Or maybe we’ve just provided Pat Robertson with his next excuse for hate speech… I’m sick, I have a small monitor… Whatever. I agree 100% with Ductape here and really think you guys should have taken that image down asap. I’m totally disgusted with this.
Ducky, I still haven’t been able to read the entire quote — let alone the signature.
Feel free to doubt me. It’s your right, and it’s your right to speak up and say so.
I didn’t post anything in my town. I do not live in Seattle.
Dan Savage didn’t post it either — as he SAID, he doesn’t know who did it. He found it interesting so took a shot of it with a digital camera. For him it was about free speech.
And, I will tell you that I thank my good fortune every day that, no matter how tough things can be for women in this society, I wasn’t born in a Muslim society where I’d be so bound up in onerous clothing and insane rules and rituals, that I’d be a prisoner. I’d be a slave.
That means a great deal to me. I wish for any Muslim woman in those restrictive cultures and countries on this earth — who can even conceive of it, let alone be aware of it, or even wish for it — that she may someday have the measure of freedom that I do.
And I think it is marvelous how, in the U.S., most Muslim women are given their freedoms. Thank god for that.
This cultural sensitivity can go too far. A few years ago, the University of Washington Medical Center thought it might be “culturally sensitive” to perform clitorectomies on women from Sudan, and other countries whose cultures dictate that mutilation.
I could not believe that a marvelous medical center in one of the best universities in the nation could possibly consider that as being culturally sensitive.
There are limits.
I have said before, it is your site, and BooMan’s, and you are the best judge of whether you wish to define it with cartoons that mock the Holocaust, which you will soon have an opportunity to do, I understand that an Iranian paper will shortly be printing some.
Or if you prefer to show solidarity with a cartoonist that depicts acts of pedophilia, that is also your right, to show solidarity.
Of course, I am not suggesting that you would ever have such material on the site.
There would probably be problems even with advertisers, if you did.
A hate cartoon of the Prophet with a bomb on his head, however is a completely different thing. Apples and oranges.
I think you have always been refreshingly upfront about your opinions on Islam and Muslims, and neither have you pretended to have knowledge about either. That also is admirable.
For the benefit of others who may read this, female genital mutilation has nothing to do with Islam, and is practiced also by Christians, Jews, and some animists in the countries where it is the custom.
Some hospitals in the west perform it in order to save the girls from having it done in the traditional way, without asepsis or anesthesia. Some westerners object to this, preferring that the little girls have it done at home with rusty scissors.
Let me gain some clarity on this.
I want a better understanding of what aspects of this have upset you.
If we posted that picture with a comment that it was one of the cartoon that was causing all the controversy and put up a poll asking how people felt about it, would that have made you feel the same way?
Or was it the advocacy of posting the poster and saying that it was an excellent example of free speech that you found to be the primary offense?
Or something else?
Because I have no objection to the poster for informational or newsy purposes, (as in, here it is, what do think about it).
But I do not support its use as an advertisement for free speech. As for taking it down, is that necessary? Does its continued presence offend you, or does it help inform people that are coming into these threads about what we are talking about?
When the Iran paper publishes its Holocaust mocking cartoons, will you post one of those? In any context whatsoever?
How about a cartoon of pedophilia? Or of a black man being lynched?
Which of those would you want on your front page?
What offends me is irrelevant. It is, I repeat, your site, and you have every right to define it in the way you see fit, and so does susan.
I will tell you one thing that offends me, and that is that the image and the text have been up for long enough for any site administrator who did not want them there to remove them.
Just so there is no mistake, it is your right to have them there, your site.
But it does offend me that after 18 hours you are trying to say that nobody knew what the text said or what the picture was of, despite about 8 threads on the subject.
Have whatever you want on your site, express whatever you want on it, but as I respect your right to your beliefs, please respect my intelligence enough to avoid freshening up on my leg and declaring it to be meteorological precipitation, if the ladies will excuse.
Well, what you think matters to me. A lot.
And I am interested in whether your objection to the poster being displayed here is because of the text that accompanied the display, or more general, as in it is offensive to display Mohammed (bomb or no bomb).
But, on your other point, about why the picture has not been taken down, I will give you the courtesy of explaining to you what has gone on over the last 18 hours.
The story was posted at 6:37 PM my time last night. I left my house around 7:00 PM without having seen it and went to the Drinking Liberally meetup. I came home around 10 PM and hit recent comments and noticed a bunch of comments about the post. I responded to Other Lisa a couple times and then I left my house until 2:00 AM. At that point I still had no idea that the turban had a bomb in it. But I did assume it was one of the cartoons. I was annoyed that the topic was on the front-page and I didn’t agree with Susan’s take on it. And I had let her know privately that I didn’t think this was a topic we should get bogged down with.
I got up this morning and briefly looked at jpol’s, howie’s, and geov’s posts. I put up an open thread, and then I started writing my post on the midterms. It wasn’t until I was done with that that I noticed comments in Catnip’s diary and then read her diary.
Then I wrote Susan and told her that her story had deeply offended some people, that I thought she had made a mistake, and that she might want to address the issue. It was then that I realized that she had not initially realized the content of the cartoon.
Susan and I have different opinions over the overall issue of the cartoons. But they are similar. I support free speech over cultural sensitivity. However, I don’t want my love of free speech to be co-opted in an anti-Muslim campaign. So, I choose to remain quiet. Susan wants to speak up. That’s her right. And I support that right.
As for why it is still up, we are all still talking about it. If Susan decides to take it down, I support that decision.
And it accompanies very well the picture.
For the umpteenth time, I think that both you and susan have the right to your views, and it would probably be better to leave it up, so that people who are not familiar with the site will have fair warning and not develop an attachment unless they are like minded.
I think that we are approaching the stage in the crusade where it will probably be better for online communities to follow the example of their “meatspace” counterparts and circle their wagons, as it were, and while that will naturally mean some sacrifice in diversity of views, as the question of personal security becomes more urgent for at-risk populations, overall, I believe it will result in a more comfortable situation for all concerned.
you are being unreasonable.
I don’t know if you think I am lying or what.
If I felt the need to lie I would just keep quiet.
I think the cartoon is offensive and should not have been printed by the newspaper in Denmark. But I also think the Danish newspapers should be free to print cartoons on any subject no matter how offensive. I’d prefer to let the advertisers and readers do the job of censorship through their willingness to be associated, or not, with cartoons.
I also think people should be able to post pictures of the cartoon in places designated for bills, and that those pictures can contain advocacy or condemnation of the cartoons. But I would not praise the decision to do that.
I would say that it was a bad way to convince people of the value of free speech, or to convince people of the reprihensiblity of the cartoons.
The fact that the cartoon is offensive is not a reason not to publish it once it has become a subject of international dispute. But I would not have advocated that poster as an excellent example of free speech. I don’t think Susan would have either if she had realized the context. Regardless, I take great care to respect the opinions of Susan, and Steven, and Jerry, Howie, Geof, even when I disagree with them.
Why this makes you feel unwelcome? I hope that you feel differently tomorrow.
taking it down would completely offend me
For the benefit of others who may read this, female genital mutilation has nothing to do with Islam, and is practiced also by Christians, Jews, and some animists in the countries where it is the custom.
Some hospitals in the west perform it in order to save the girls from having it done in the traditional way, without asepsis or anesthesia. Some westerners object to this, preferring that the little girls have it done at home with rusty scissors.
It may be a “custom” but that doesn’t make it right.
I don’t mean to take this off-topic, but putting the onus on “westerners” here for objecting to it, as you seem to have done, is, well, personally and deeply offensive.
See, we all have our tender places. And mine are just as legitimate and deeply felt as yours.
to the little girls having any anesthesia or sterile conditions.
I cannot explain why they have that opinion, but it is a fact that they do.
Westerners object to their having anesthesia?
OMG.
I’m utterly appalled that you’d insinuate that.
One would think that even though the little girls are not westerners, in fact frequently black Africans, that the fact that they are children would enter into the views, but it is a fact that there are westerners who would prefer that the little girls suffer the horrors of unclean conditions and nothing at all to relieve the pain, not to mention that the operation itself is performed by a kinswoman who will likely as not, damage the child for life.
Yet there are plenty of westerners who object strenuously to allowing the child to have it done in a hospiral, so great is their contempt.
contempt for the little girl or distaste and contempt for the practice?
Do doctor’s that refuse to perform abortions necessarily have contempt for the patient, or do they let their contempt for the procedure take precedence over the well-being of the patient?
I think you are wrong to take an agonizing moral dilemma and turn it into contempt for the patient.
Oh, come on. You’re playing with words here. You said what you said to provoke. Okay, it worked. You provoked me. Please stop hiding behind rhetorical tricks.
I object to the practice, period. I object to the pain and cruelty of it.
not Susan.
Ductape, you have on a number of occasions written things that I’ve found offensive and objectionable. You’ve also written some of the most beautiful, touching posts I’ve read anywhere. And you’ve written things that I’ve found challenging and funny.
So, okay. But what I get from your responses to this controversy is that your wounded feelings are more deeply felt and more legitimate than, for example, mine.
And I don’t get that at all.
The Possessing the Secret of Joy by Alice Walker? This is one of my favorite authors and deals with this issue.
[http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0671789422/sr=1-2/qid=1139443044/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-7048753-2068947?%
5Fencoding=UTF8]
Good reviews as well. You see the issue from various perspectives, yet you come away with heaviness of the injustice. This book is how we change ideas….the power of a story.
Don’t know why you are getting jumped on…I understood what you said. I don’t see anyone here advocating genital mutilation.
Please don’t leave. The only way people can evolve is to keep lines of communication open. I made my point so have you. This site should have free speech, and if we have objections to what we consider hate speech, we should stay and debate it. When people’s emotions settle, sometimes minds can change.
That is bullshit, pure bullshit. You know damn well that the people objecting to hospitals mutilating little girls is because they are mutilating little girls. Whether they are mutilated at home or at the hospital, the fact remains that they are mutilated, permanently and irrevocably. Sure you can argue that doing it at a hospital is better than at home, not doing it at all is what we want. Next you will be saying that we should go ahead and give the Chinese the drugs to kill their infant daughters because drugs are a nicer way to go than drowning in a river. Sheesh.
Sorry to veer off topic.
So let me get this straight. You’re saying that westerners who object to female genital mutilation being performed under any circumstance are, in fact, just objecting to it being performed in sterile circumstances? As that’s the only possible way to read your posts. If so, I wonder why you’re posting on this site.
but some, their interest is not so much in having the custom change, but asserting what they perceive as their cultural superiority.
They do not care to understand the beliefs behind the custom, why it is such a deep value, the reality that these parents are going to do it does not interest them.
Their view is, if the parents do not obey my idea of cultural value right now and today, then their little girls must not only undergo this, they must undergo it without anesthesia and in dirty conditions, which effectively sentences the child to a life of pain.
In my view, that is not objecting to the harm to the child, but the uppitiness of people from Africa.
And you know what? Here’s where I draw the line at cultural relativism. Understanding why is one thing. Approving is another.
Is it that the children are harmed, or that these people see things differently than you?
What is your interest? To see the custom change, or to assert what you perceive to be your superiority?
I realize I asked you this before, and I do not expect that you will, or can, answer, even if you wished to.
It is not an easy question, and I think maybe one you have not yet asked to yourself.
I want to see the custom changed. Period.
As for my not answering your questions, I believe I’ve been more forthcoming about answering you than you have about answering me.
You have been truly embraced on this site. Your contributions always make the Recommended List, your opinions are valued and respected. Even when I disagree with you, I am glad to know your perspective. But you are edging up to a troll rating…
Some westerners object to this, preferring that the little girls have it done at home with rusty scissors.
Get a grip on your rapier wit, man. All civilized westerners would prefer that it NOT HAPPEN AT ALL! And you KNOW that.
of being civilized.
The fact is, that unless you want to pass a law saying that all female babies from these countries shall be seized at birth and warehoused in institutions, their parents are going to do that.
Whether they live in Africa in a small village, or in the US or UK in a large city. Whether you or I approve does not figure into the equation. They are going to do it.
What the western societies can control to some extent, is whether it is done under sterile conditions, with anesthestia, and by a medical doctor who will at least not completely butcher the child and doom her to a life of pain and complications.
However, some westerners object strongly to that idea, and prefer that the little girls suffer more.
That is utter, complete bullshit. I do not “prefer” that ANYONE suffers more.
Like I said down thread, it all depends on whose ox is being gored, doesn’t it?
to suffer or have anesthesia, and your view is not something that I can control, any more than I can control the mother of the little girl who is going to get it done one way or another, and who, although it may be hard for you to accept, does not care what your opinion or mine is on the subject.
The question is, anesthesia and sterile conditions in a hospiral with a doctor, or on the floor with rusty scisoors surrounded by seven or eight aunts chanting?
You are setting up a false dichotomy here, Ductape. I am not buying it.
Besides, if you and I can’t control what they do, then how is it our preferences about hospitals and anaesthesia matter either way?
Please.
And I will ask you again, just what knowledge do you have regarding the tradition, the reasons and beliefs?
And as I asked the other lady, I will also ask you, look into your heart, and tell me, is your interest in seeing the custom change, or in asserting what you believe to be your own cultural superiority, willing to harm children if the parents do not obey you?
And as I asked you, look into your heart, and tell me, is your interest in exposing hipocracy among westerners, or in protecting and proliferating a disgusting, immoral custom?
I’ve given you a warning. You are wandering ridiculously. This comment thread started with facts about a hospital in the United States. We are not talking about the whole world and seizing babies from their mother’s arms. But, right here, in this country, if parents mutilate their female children I want them arrested for child abuse, not assisted in their barbarian “customs.”
Are you now, in the perversity of your arguments, going to defend this practice?
some kind? How will you find me?
And which practice do you ask if I am defending?
Condemning little girls to torture and a life of pain and medical problems?
Tell me what you know about the reasons and beliefs about this custom.
Do you know that the people who do this consider NOT doing it even more barbaric than you consider them to be?
Is your interest in having the custom change, or demonstrating that the west has the power and will to doom the little girls to torture if their parents will not obey the white man?
Ductape Fatwa wrote:
Erm, actually, I’m one of those Westerners who objects to the practise of female genital mutiliation whenever and wherever it’s done, either in a clean, surgical environment or have it “done at home with rusty scissors”. The World Health Organisation (WHO), a United Nations agency, currently campaigns against FGM (female genital mutilation)–and good for them, I say. FGM serves no hygienic purpose but does serve to rob females of the ability to experience sexual pleasure, which is their birthright as a human being.
Women’s rights are human rights.
People have posted some very thoughtful things there, if you are interested
Female Genital Mutilation
I’m astonished to see you post that.
Are Catholic nuns slaves when they wear a habit? I hardly know where to start here — you really think that every woman who wears a burqa is a slave? That they feel awful about it?
Ah — many religions have special head coverings, or body coverings for women and men to wear. Some more cloth, some less. On the secular side — One reason both men and women in deserts wear long flowing robes, is it’s cooler. They’re keeping the heat off their bodies, letting air flow around them. The same way I wear a long-sleeved shirt to garden in when the sun is very hot.
Haven’t you heard what some of the very wealthy women in the middle east said when Bush’s Karen Hughes was essentially telling them they were underprivileged because they didn’t drive and wore burqas? They said, “Why would I want to drive?” etc. Some of them are probably from very elegant rich families — and here’s Karen telling them to take driving lessons.
I mean, I’m just tongue-tied at the juxtaposition in your post of prejudice against Muslims for their clothing and/or religious beliefs, alongside condemnation against a university for being “too culturallly sensitive”.
Rap music here, and other forms of music, are filled with hatred of women. We have a ton of rape and violence against women. Women are killed by spouses and boyfriends, beaten and battered. Daughters are raped by fathers and brothers. Salary differential. Ugly words yelled from passing cars at women. Glass ceilings at work. Strip clubs. Men make a living selling women for sex. Women sell themselves to get drugs. Male congressmen “are incisive” while women congresswomen “sport a well-chosen taupe suit”. Anorexics, bulemics. Women live with self-imposed curfews at night — they just don’t go out.
What culture is it that we have here around women that is so healthy?
When I see, in, for example, Iraq, the utter outrage that the men have that Americans are breaking into their homes where they might see their women in a state of undress — it looks like love and caring to me. Like respect. Like they value the women they’re married to.
Here — women parade a runway in a tiny strip of cloth in two parts of their bodies, high heels, oiled, shaved chin to toenail… and we call it freedom. Freedom to be rewarded by winning contests for treating oneself like an object to arouse lust. Great.
Free at last.
There are not enough 4’s in the world. I wish I could give you a million of them.
I would agree with you wholeheartedly, except that, all cultural expectations and pressures aside, women have the choice as to whether they want to parade around in stupid bikinis. Just so you know, I despise the objectification of women that too often occurs in the West. I don’t own a bikini, I don’t own a pair of heels and I don’t wear make-up. But last time I checked, no one is forcing me to wear any of that stuff.
Women who are now being made to cover up in Iraq don’t get to make a choice about it. Women in Afghanistan who are wearing burkhas don’t generally get to make that call either.
Please, let’s get real here.
Ducky, I just opened the image in Photoshop, which helps me see images better …
OHHHH … NOW I know now why i couldn’t see it…. because when it was posted at Andrew Sullvian/Dan Savage’s sites, they’d made the image MUCH SMALLER, and that’s all I saw …
at that point, I’d only seen the image over there. I simply saved it, posted it in the image folder here, and copied it into my story. I didn’t ever see the image as it really appears HERE… not at their sites!
But, let me ask you this:
Let’s say the situation is different. Let’s say that the Muslim newspaper editors are put off by Pat Robertson, and their cartoonists put up cartoons that make fun of him and his 700 Club members.
Is that okay?
Is it then okay if the poster appears like this?
Would YOU be angry for Pat Robertson’s and his 700 club members’ sakes?
Or do you think he’s fair game?
Or, to be more accurate, I didn’t really LOOK at the image when it was up over here because I’d already looked at it over on their sites … and I was rushing because I’d post stuff, lie down, get back up because I was bored, etc., etc …. maybe on a normal day, I’d have certainly noticed the image at that size. DUH!
YES– SORRY! SO ditzy … I meant to add that there’d be a bomb on Pat Robertsons’ head, of course!
I can Photoshop a cruise missile being launched from his head as though his head is an empty silo.
I might just do that anyway…
I can Photoshop a cruise missile being launched from his head as though his head is an empty silo.
I can photoshop a picture of Christ armed with an RPG and engaged in pedophilia with a small boy. Man, would that produce an ‘overreaction’ but it would be a more accurate equivalent to Danish cartoons than Susan’s suggestion. That is, unless Pat Robertson has acquired a more prominent place in Christendom than I am aware of.
Free speech can’t be examined in a vacuum. If the poster depicted ol’ Pat in a manner that was designed to stir up hatred of Christians, I would condemn it. Not outlaw it, mind you, but I would certainly point it out as hate speech.
Similarly, the depiction of Mohammed with a bomb in his turban is a nifty shorthand portrayal of Muslims–all of them–as terrorists. If I saw that poster stapled to the utility pole at my bus stop, I would interpret it as expressing hatred of Muslims.
Of course the rioters are wrong. But the perpetrators of hateful images aren’t right. Just because we may believe that the publishers of such images have the right to publish doesn’t mean that we should applaud them when they do so–or that we shouldn’t question their motives.
i saw 4 of the images and my interpretation was not that all muslims were terrorists…to me it was a denunciation of the muslims who ARE terrorists and doing it in the name of their religion.
I’m talking about the poster that appears in the front page post below. Mohammed with a bomb in his turban. If Mohammed=terrorist, does that not suggest that the followers of Mohammed are also terrorists?
is that what it meant to you?
it didnt mean that to me…to me it said “im a muslim and im pissed that the crazy radical mullahs are promoting the idea that mohammed is in favor of muslims bombing people”
i did a bit of research on the images, the context, the cartoonists themselves….did you see the muslim beauty pageant cartoon? again my impression was not that all muslims are women hating terrorists…it was that some muslims are and the images are criticising those who are.
so you really think the people protesting are the same moderate muslims who normally denounce violence?
these people were waiting for a reason to protest….this whole thing is so fishy…the cartoons are from september…all of a sudden we have protests in the street….Soj’s diary on the saudis stoking this fire makes a lot more sense to me now.
I suppose I’m trying to view it from the standpoint of the Muslim man waiting next to me at the bus stop and reading the poster stuck on a light pole. The fellow who already is pretty nervous over the glares he’s getting from passers-by.
Sounds like a rational reaction, and one I can understand since I know your other posts, and I know you’re a very open-minded, liberal person and so I won’t leap to thinking you hate Muslims because you’re not incredibly offended.
Then if I were one of his followers, or even a Christian who respected him and his followers, I would take it as a sign that my kind were not welcome at the site with that image on their front page.
But I would respect your right to express your views on those Christians as I respect your right to express your views on Muslims.
Pat Robertson as the cultural/religious equivalent of Muhammed?
Aside from the obvious economic disparities between them, Susan, do you really think this is a valid comparison?
The comparison itself is as offensive as the cartoons, imo.
Oh my god….now I am really agreeing with you! :0) <snark>
…I guess being a minority, I too, can see the complexity of the issues, obviously this is not as black and white as the MSM wants it to be.
I hope people that have not followed the story closely go back and read some of the good diaries that have already been written.
Boy, I take a little time off the site to go do stuff like work and spend time with my family, and things just go to hell. I guess I should know better by now.
Susan, I wouldn’t worry too much about the backlash over making a mistake. Friends will forgive you for it, and enemies will just look for excuses. I know your heart’s in the right place, you know your heart’s in the right place.
As for me, I would ask why these teapot tempests always happen when I’m gone, but really, I’d just rather count my good fortune. I’ve been known to leave websites when things got acrimonious and snippy. I’d hate to add this one to the list.
Discussions of late.. not here but in my home. Most recently last night at the dinner table when my daughter asked her dad what insurgents really were and if he’d be an insurgent if someone tried to “liberate” the US.
I’ve found that when we are discussing this “war” to a child the simplicity of it can’t go away. This war is so wrong. We liberated them from a bad guy but yet we are now tortuing, we bombed schools, we secured the oilfields and closed hospitals. Fallujah for cripesake.
My daughter then asked basically what all have we destroyed there? Because she knows that it’s an ANCIENT CIVILIZATION.
The other night I cried as I watched some dumbass movie “The 13th Warrior” and he’s this amassador from Baghdad. The sites, the souds… the museums, the history, GONE…
Looted, raped, burned, and bombed.
I realize people are pissed over the depiction of the prophet. They should be and will be. But where’s the outrage for the RAPE OF THEIR LAND AND HISTORY AND FUTURE??
I don’t know much about the cartoon and the all behind it. I’ve been looking at other photos instead. RubDMC’s daily photos of the FACE of Iraq and this war.
Sounds crazy and it’s selfish, but I’ve been wondering why I’ve been so emotional lately – cause I may never ever get to travel to Baghdad. All the stories and books I read that were based or loosely based from Persia.
We’re bombing the shit out of it and looting. It’d be like watching “liberators” falling the Statue of Liberty and grabbing what they wanted from the Smithsonian.
I guess my outrage isn’t based on faith based but out of human based.
I had to explain to my daughter while more and more children are still dying in Iraq.
DJ,
all i know, I mean ALL I know reside within these four walls I call home. I’m saddened at the state of the world. I’m saddened at the state of our strained relationships. What will get my soul through this night is the pleasure of seeing my daughter Sarah sing her lungs out for the school tonight. That is all any of us has.
Please….
be peaceful with one another.
Supersoling, very true. And sometimes I feel like a bit of a stranger or alien in these four walls. 🙂
Wish I could sit by you and hear her sing. But tonight I have to try to figure out what happened with my son today. Someone called him a name and said he talks like “a girl”. I suspect the name was “retard”. Yesterday he was so happy. Today he looks crushed and I’ve given him some space but I soon will have to go back and try to figure this out so that I can dot to dot the pieces so I can maybe talk to him about this. The whole time not knowing what the fuck I’m doing cause sometimes this shit is just too way out there.
For some reason, he’s all mad at me. I’m available.
Love to you and yours Super.
Janet, you’ve hit on what is truly important.
I’d like to know more about “The 13th Warrior.”
wait… let me put my mommy cloak of super powers on.
(there)
Susan,
GO GET SOME REST! NOW!
YOUR SICK. FEVERISH.
I think BooMan should insist you take it easy cheesy till you feel better. I know it’s BORING when you’re sick and you’re a super amped woman of internet blogging feats but….
You need to take care of yourself and let those that love you see that you do. There. Okay. Now shoooooooosh – and get in your jammies or undies and not another peep. The globe will continue to spin. I swear it will.
13th Warrior based on the Michael Crichton boook Eaters of the Dead. Antonio Banderas plays in it.
I check out of BMT for a week and return to this. Oy vey.
Susan made a mistake, apologized for it, and in the process created a lively debate about free speech and prejudice. At least that’s what it looks like to me, having quickly caught up with a bunch of posts.
You can all lay off her now. Yes, now.
Might I respectfully suggest that if that image was posed by mistake, that it be removed from the front page?
You may respectfully ask.
I will respectfully consider it.
I have my right to self-expression too. Or did. Or thought I did.
Susan I don’t get it. Your reply seems to contradict the main thrust of this diary.
She has a right to her beliefs, a right to praise the cartoon, and the right to encourage people to post it in their towns.
There is no need to backtrack or say she did not know what it was, if she did not, certainly BooMan and many others saw what it was, and it is the administrators of the site, once again, who have every right to define the site according to their beliefs and express their views.
I’m confused as well. If you indeed support the use of the image, then why tell us that you didn’t realize what the image was when you posted it? If you don’t support the use of the image, then you would be exercising your right of free speech by taking it down.
Not at all.
I’m very hurt and feeling very emotional.
Give me some time, please.
This really made me sad and upset. Just give me a little time …
and I am trying to mop my floors because I got … ALL OVER! Not fun. Gross. Depressing.
Not a good day.
OK, now I’m confused. I understand a mistake. I make them all the time.
I never doubted that posting the picture in that context was, as you said, due to an inability to see what it really was. (I was going to blame it on the orange tint !)
But now I’m confused.
My late husband used to tell me Yiddish words for things which I later found out were offensive and embarassing. I didn’t keep saying them while working out the moral balance of free speech vs rude, hurtful behavior. I immediately stopped saying them in a accidental context, and then used them only with studied deliberation and strong intention.
As the posting was an error, why not take it down to correct the error ? There is nothing to prevent you from putting it back up on purpose if that is your choice.
Because it involves people whose thoughts I like very much, and would very much like to continue to read.
As I said in one of my only comments on this topic, I don’t know what to make of this issue. Do I believe in free speech most? Or do I want to limit speech so as to be sensitive to cultural issues? I don’t have an answer. I honestly don’t.
But Ductape Fatwa makes an excellent point. To leave the picture up and say it was posted mistakenly just doesn’t do it for me. I erase mistakes all the time. With a quick apology. So by leaving it up, or demandning to be asked for an invitation to take it down, isn’t it basically saying you have taken a stand on this issue. And that you choose to take the side of free expression. And if so, why not come out and make that case, instead of apologizing and leaving it up. Seems kind of muddy. This is an honest question on my part. If it was a mistake that you posted it, I’d ask you to take it down SusanHu? What does it hurt to erase a mistake? If you mean to leave it up in the name of free speech, then say so and leave it up. And since it is on the front page, I think the blog should state its position.
And I don’t think there is anything wrong with the strong free expression position. I’m sure it is more defensible than the apology for mistake that I won’t take down position. So I make the request. Take it down for the sake of harmony. There is no sense of having it, unless it was meant, and was posted for principle.
I didn’t read the thread. No biggie. Obviously it has offended some. That is fine too. I trust Susan. Period.
The only other thing I want to say is that now I know what the ditzy old broad needs for her birthday or just because ;o) So I too will hope a way becomes available to do that.
What’s that expression? It depends on whose ox is being gored?
All of us have things that we find personally offensive. As I said in one of the other threads, I personally find many forms of religious expression offensive, threatening and inexplicable. But that’s the world we live in.
So, personally, I guess I would tend to want to err on the side of:
Obviously these two tendencies can come into conflict at times. We have to do the best we can, based on our own judgment, and, I hope, sober analyses.
Two more things…
SusanHu busts her ass for this site and does not deserve being personally attacked.
And where’s that PayPal link for her new monitor?!
I’ve not had internet access today, and then I came to see that something has happened to our dear SusanHu. From reading her description I think I;’ve seen the depiction with the tiny wick, because I accidently sent it out not seeing the wick myself. I thought it was a comment on the contents of the Koran vs. the writings done after his death.
So please, SusanHu, take my deepest respect and understanding.
Susan,
I am actually very glad that you posted about your eyesight and your monitor – count me as another who wants to see a paypal button for you.
I remember reading your post and thinking it was grossly out of character precisely because of your incredible efforts supporting Muslims. While my post on the thread wasn’t aimed solely at you, I felt very strongly that if you’d actually seen the images properly – and I know that no-one can from the Wiki image as I have excellent eyesight – you would have understood that this was not simply about depiction of the Prophet, as it has been so deceptively reported.
I’m also surprised to see you continue to see this as an issue solely about the depiction of Mohammed – when clearly no matter how this is trumped up, stripped down and portrayed, what it is about is the intolerable pressure and stress felt by Muslims around the world, and these cartoons have provided a crack in the wall of a dam that is now bursting. This is the proverbial straw for many Muslims; with the west having stripped them of any ready acknowledgement of their equal humanity, for many their religion, no matter how radical, is their only sense of self-worth. These hate-filled cartoons attack that at its heart. It is a final, contemptuous display of our fuindamental disrespect for all aspects of Muslim culture and society.
At the realpolitik level it’s not about the cartoons themselves; it’s about the publishing of cartoons that utterly demonise Muslims in a country that is profoundly racist (Denmark); it’s about European countries, struggling to deal with their increasingly radicalised Muslim citizens, giving knee-jerk support to Denmark and being deliberately manipulated into a hardline position, a precursor to supporting a military strike on Iran; it’s about the deliberate contrivance of this whole situation to further divide the west and the Muslim world, and there are forces on both sides who actively strive for that – these cartoons have served them well.
Don’t leave. Your error sparked some excellent diaries and discussion. If only every mistake we each make could be said to do the same.
thanks.
first Irshad Manji does not represent Muslums. She has only her opinion. If Muslums were not offended we would not be having the problem we witnessing. I have read the Koan…reads similar to the old testament, don’t remember specifics on imagines of Mohammed.
I have read alot of Susan’s writting and I respect her, AND I can disagree with the posting of this photograph and her views on it. The photographs offends me as much as ones depicting Popes molesting 10 years boys…and Jews lying about the Holocaust would —-especially if they were printed in a respected newspaper like the New York Times.
This is the demonization of a people…what’s next the gas chambers?
Heard someone say it best on TV…imagine the muslum society like a very dry field of grass….and the west running around with matches just to prove they can….
the muslims with problems with the cartoons also do not represent muslims…they represent themselves…thats the whole freaking point….the cartoons represent a point of view also…it is wrong to censor them.
So what do you propose, meting out punishment on people before they commit a criminal act? Are you in favor of the doctrine of pre-emption? Can you devise a law that inflicts punishment on people for thinking things and saying things, even if they commit no overt act?
Are you willing to jail people for exressing interest in things you find offensive, (people who like pornography, for instance, or perhaps people who don’t happen to pay the proper respect you feel your own God deserves)?
I am stating an opinion. The editors showed no responsiblity to their community, and frankly I think there where hidden agendas. I also think it is a small amount of people rioting, but alot more were upset….including non-muslums.
I want to apologize for the harshnes of my tone. I don’t share some of the aspects of your opinions on this matter, and I may have responded with undue and certainly undeserved abruptness.
BTY…so far I have not met any god, still looking.
We are all on edge with the world as it is. Especially since the revelations of Bushco and how our perceived liberties are being decimated by the NSA.
That being said, I hope we continue to respect each others feelings. We are a melting pot here.
Susan, when I saw that post last night, I knew how lousy you must be feeling, because it seemed so out of character with everything I’ve seen from you over the past year.
And today when I saw what it stirred up, I couldn’t help but think of all the times I’ve made mistakes or maybe could have done things differently, and was glad they weren’t on the front page of a blog for discussion.
I hope you feel better soon. This is the last thing anybody needs when they have the flu. So rest up, relax, and recover. We need you around here.
I think it’s a great idea to get together the funds to upgrade Susan’s system–though as of yesterday, I am no longer in any position to contribute since I have just been saddled with several thousand dollars worth of medical expenses myself; as of yesterday 🙁 –otherwise, my check would be in the mail in a second-city minute.
But here is a proposal for another “silver lining” I’d like to see come out of this: somewhere in the maze of messages, someone suggested that DuctapeFatwa be front-paged.
Someone else also mentioned the ‘gulf’ between frontpagers and diarists.
And Booman recently put out a request for input on the site.
It is no secret to anyone that I consider Ductape one of the best writers on this site–not only for content, but for style and absolutely BRILLIANT, masterfully crafted writing. I know I am not alone in that opinion.
Ductape’s contributions are consistently insightful, witty, compassionate, and in every way delightful–whether one agrees with the content or not, the technical merit of his writing is simply beyond reproach.
To the best of my knowledge, Ductape is the only Muslim we have posting on this site (sorry if I missed something).
I think inviting Ductape to become a regular frontpager would greatly enhance the site, and it would reflect a genuine committment to the cause of “diversity” (a regular column/space/rubric for Blksista’s updates on NOLA would do the same, imo; don’t know whatever happened to that idea which was being thrown around a while back).
Such a move would not involve any compromise in terms of quality and it wouldn’t even have to be seen as being related to the recent controversy: DuctapeFatwa is an exceptional writer and thinker. His presence as a regular frontpage contributor would give this site something that very few blogs of this nature actually possess: an authentic Muslim perspective on current events.
But I repeat: my advocacy of such a move is based more on the technical merit of his writing than it is on the content or promoting the cause of “diversity” on the front page. The writing is impeccable. It merits, imo, frontpage showcase status. Period.
I hereby make a motion to elevate DuctapeFatwa to regular front-page status. Anyone want to second the motion?
you to consider yourself adopted as an honorary great granddaughter.
And I am moved by your words, but it would not be appropriate. At this time, I do not feel that it is appropriate for me to post here at all.
I am doing so right now, because as I said, I had come to feel that this is my home, and I am still adjusting to the reality of my error regarding the views of the site administrators, which I sincerely had not known were as extreme as they are.
Hey. I didn’t know you were a muslim. That’s it. I’m not liking the witty stuff you write anymore.
I would be more than honored to be considered your honorary great granddaughter, and I bet you’d have hit it off very well with my own great grandmother. She smiles upon you. (‘Member, at 107, she was the oldest living Ojibwe in the state of Wisconsin!)
I will not disrespect my elders, but I have always been inclined to engage in the slightly audacious practice of questioning them:
You belong here.
Pls, let the community (and the site administrators) weigh in on this proposal, then make your decision. Pls don’t leave (either one of you, actually) without allowing time for an adequate resolution of the conflict.
Either way, I respect your decision, and I will follow you wherever you go on the Net because you make me LAUGH. And at this point in time, there are very few people who are capable of doing so–especially not when I have blood and pus gushing from my gums, am entirely freaked by that, but can’t afford an ER visit, as was the case last night. (No worry, the acute danger has passed: now it’s just a matter of maxing out the credit cards to cover the expenses).
So my proposal is partly self-interested and egotistical: I’m afraid if you leave, I will have to follow (and my leaving would probably please a good number of posters, too, maybe even the admins, don’t know).
I have finally gotten past the fluffy, soft pink exterior of yours in order to get to know the real person…
Wow. You think there’s a real person in there? For years I have been convinced that I am the live-in-the-flesh incarnation of Louky Bersianik’s Euguelion.
Guess I’ll have to reconsider that. 😉
Never read it…but I feel more like Alice in Wonderland…
It’s been decades since I read it, and thanks for inadvertently jogging my memory…. It was one of the first books I read that made me realize this whole thing was not my imagination running away with you….here’s another quote I just dug up from it:
…your talking to a first born that prided herself by following the rules. LOL. I have changed alittle. You can follow the rules and be a free thinker, somehow I am not sure you ever met a rule you liked…am I right?
You got me.You’re cheating, right? You’ve read what I’ve written about my rules haven’t you?
You are definitely on to something here:
That’s how we should look at other religions and cultures. They’re drumming their beat — which is nunna our beeswax, our job is just to drum ours.
My two cents.
I can only hope that you and others like OMIR do stay. So that we can learn from this and grow stronger for it.
I learn from diversity rather than conformity. people leaving would create such an incredible loss.
We have so much work to do…
And of course, if good people leave the site here over this, the wingnuts, the evangelical fascist armageddon enthusiasts and their counterparts in the Muslim world, achieve another victory.
More’s the pity.
Not yet, anyway. Fair warning, though, if I ever do I am not going to go out in a blaze of glory with a Goodbye Cruel Boo diary. If I ever don’t show up for a month or so feel free to write me, and I’ll tell you that the site got too contentious for my taste, or that I didn’t like the color of the linoleum they put in the Froggy Bottom Cafe, or I could just tell you to stop calling me, I’m not giving you any more money and I don’t care WHERE you publish those pictures of me, the lederhosen, the llama, the swimming pool and the truckload of raspberry Fizzies, and would you please feed the cat on the way out. And I won’t even have a cat.
I feel like an exile in my own country, let alone on liberal blogs (being recently delinked from this blog pretty well solidified that feeling for me). I don’t really know what else to do other than stick around and agitate – if for no other reason than I’m too cranky and ornery to do otherwise.
Now my memory may be fading (due to age, mad cow disease, or who knows), but I recall a certain DuctapeFatwa who would argue that being offended by the site’s content or actions of the admins was all the more reason than stick around and fight.
What say you?
Consider it a case of not “No’, but “know”, as in ‘don’t know”.
I’m floored myself, but I’m thinking it’s just because they don’t know, or haven’t heard reasoned discourse on alternatives to their views. That if they had, perhaps they would be taking more moderate positions.
I may not have said this well, if it made zero sense, please let me know.
I would second that. I would also love to see Ductape Fatwa write a series of diaries about Islam; kind of ‘Islam for Dummies’ if you will. I certainly count myself as a dummy when it comes to understanding the Muslim faith.
I knew someone would. May I first your second, or third it or whatever the he….It’s a great idea.
even if such an offer were made. As I said to stark, I do not think it would be appropriate.
And the internets are overflowing with accessible, easy to understand material about Islam, literally at the fingertips of anayone who is interested, and I don’t think that such a series would be a good fit for this site, anyway.
So you’re pulling an Al Gore on us or what? 😉
I repeat: my point has less to do with your expertise on Islam and more to do with your absolute mastery of the writer’s craft. Period.
Well yes, but none of those diaries were written by you. 🙂
Actually, I respect your decision because I would probably make it as well. I write about what I write about, and there are others who can do a much better job of explaining and, when necessary, defending my religion than I can.
is the high percentage of readers and thinkers.
I have noticed that the people here do not hesitate, if they want to learn about something, or have information, they go get it, they are not shy or lazy! 🙂
I want to take strong exception with you remark here, sir. I remain willfully ignorant on any number of issues for as long as I damn well please. Even on some where I want to learn, just out of sheer sloth. I frequently type these comments while seated in my chair, not having shaved for days, smelling quite rank.
So you are just going to have to rethink your whole “world view” about the relative diligence of the bloggers here.
and given to blanket smears of entire groups, accusing them not only of intelligence, but knowledge of a variety of subjects.
You, in particular have written things that are witty, thoughtful, and undeniably intellectual, and very suggestive of the work of a shaven man.
Group hug!
(ducks and runs to avoid flying objects)
Dang turists. I’m still floored that your Muslim. I guess I haven’t read closely enough. Or were you in a sleeper cell or something? Not that I’d expect you to be honest about it.
I guess the whole Fatwa thing should have been a tip off. God am I a godless librul. I won’t even object when they knock on my door tonight. And I won’t tell them about you. I promise. Unless they do that whole “strip, hood, dog” thing. I might break then. But I’ll hold out for a while. Until they give me a cigarette or something, anyway.
in general?
I didn’t realize how much I’ve studied comparative religion, and what peace of mind that has brought me until I saw burqas equated with “slave”. Boy howdy.
There’s a lot that’s postive about religions and what they do for the world, and a lot that’s scary. But being locked into hatred for everything about religion — seems kinda extreme. The various religions are fascinating, IMO.
My two cents.
Seeing as DF posted above in favour of female genital mutilation, I feel that this would be incredibly inappropriate.
Please, go re-read what he wrote. He did nothing of the sort.
Re-read the thread. He’s been relentlessly attacking and insulting opponents of it. The only reasonable conclusion one can draw is that he supports the practice, as he seems to be incapable of accepting that “westerners” can object to it on principle.
Uh, actually, I am the one who is claiming that Westerners have no basis for opposing it on principle–because it’s none of our business.
Do I need to point to any more “barbaric practices” in our country to make the point: do you know how many times I turn on the local news to find that some woman who obviously could not afford an abortion and could not afford to feed a child has left that child in a dumpster, or in a plastic bag hanging from a fence.
(who knows? in my neighborhood, there are women and men who cannot even afford a CONDOM)
We do not have the monopoly on moral standards, and we certainly don’t have any business interfering with the practices and customs of other people.
We in this country cannot even manage to successfully organize a “murder free day” in Detroit, Chicago, New York, etc.
Who the hell do we think we are, really? God?
Or Godzilla?
You will see no interest expressed in indigenous efforts to change the custom, in Africa, or in the west.
That is because there is no interest in that. They do not know, nor do they care, anything about the tradition or the beliefs, that these can be preserved without harm to the child.
Seeing the custom change is not their goal. All they see are people who see things differently, with a custom that offends them. They cannot conceive of the fact that their custom is just as offensive to these other people!
And of course there is no understanding that this is not an overnight thing. All they want to do is assert what they believe to be their superiority, even if it causes the children additional harm.
And again, I call bullshit. You are making all sorts of assumptions about me that are inaccurate and unfair. You are taking my objection to a practice and claiming that this somehow makes me intolerant of entire cultures.
Bullshit.
I don’t think Ductape has expressed himself with his usual clarity on this (totally off-topic) issue, but I think what he’s trying to do is illustrate:
the huge moral dilemmas such traumatic topics as genital mutilation create – such as whether to provide medical care in western nations where the practice is anathema
the common practice of many westerners (not necessarily YOU personally) to conflate and impose their ingrained sense of moral and cultural superiority with what is actually the right thing to do.
Because he was responding to what I said. That’s me, personally. I think perhaps you should reread the thread.
And okay, as long as we’re on this topic? There’s no “huge moral dilemma” in a western society as far as I’m concerned. We don’t allow female genital mutilation. It’s against our laws, our morals, our customs. I would never say that western culture or in particular American culture is “superior” to all others on this earth. I will however state without ambiguity that female genital mutilation is a horrible, wretched practice that has no place in civilized society – which does not mean I’m claiming that Western cultures are the only real “civilizations” around. How’s about that?
So the whole “providing medical care” here in the states, so that parents can mutilate their daughters in a sterilized setting?
Again, I call bullshit. We don’t allow it. Period.
By the way, I’m a long-time student of Chinese language, history and culture. I speak Chinese. I love China. I think I might go live there, even though it’s far from perfect (what place is?).
But you know what? Footbinding. Bad. Wrong. A feudal remnant that belongs on the dustbin of history.
Ask Chinese people what they think about it, and 99.9 percent of them will tell you the same thing.
Every society has some aspects that are positive and some that are negative. My preference is to embrace the positive and call out the negative for what it is.
You want to ask me what I don’t like about the US? Please do. I’m sure you’ve heard it all before. But I have a very long list, and I’m happy to share.
“Because he was responding to what I said. That’s me, personally.”
No, actually it’s not, not when you consider that every time he’s made points on this issue he’s talked quite distinctly about a sub-set of westerners – now if you don’t identify as one them as described, he’s not talking to you personally at all in terms of the content of his statements.
There’s no “huge moral dilemma” in a western society as far as I’m concerned. We don’t allow female genital mutilation.
Actually there is, it’s just very little known and reported outside the services that deal with it. I know more about the UK, where African families go to extreme lengths to circumcise their girl children, from backyard illegal ‘doctors’ to actually saving up money to send their child somewhere overseas where it can be done. Making it illegal has done very little to stop the practice, but like you my stomach churns at the thought of any state sanctioning of it; but like Ductape, my stomach equally churns at the thought of all the little girls having this done to them in the most appallingly dangerous of medical circumstances. As you are probably aware, many of the horrific results of female circumcision come about from botched ‘surgery’ and infection.
It’s a terrible problem, an appalling dilemma without any really good answers. I think if you knew more about it, you would have understood right from the get-go Ductape’s posts on this issue. His point is quite correct; you and I can loathe and decry female genital mutilation with every fibre in our being, and it does exactly nothing to convince the cultures involved to stop it, and absolutely nothing to ensure that at least the girls don’t have their labia and clitoris removed with a rusty knife, without anaesthetic.
In short, it’s not bullshit, it’s a very real dilemma in western nations, and as you obviously care so passionately about the issue, it’s probably an area you might want to look into getting some more information on.
China has experienced great economic growth that has dispersed a level of prosperity even to most of it’s poorest, that is far beyond what is in Africa. It has also gone through several huge cultural re-evaluations, and did not have it’s boundaries, ethnicities and language groups utterly screwed up and shattered by colonialism. Issues like female genital mutilation are a good illustration of just how far Africa has to go.
I don’t think liking or disliking elements of our respective countries is of much relevance here.
Oh, for fuck’s sake. I’ve had a really shitty day, and I should probably just go to bed and stop reading this thread because it’s not helping in the slightest.
I raised the issue of female genital mutilation. Ductape responded to me. Whether it’s cloaked in the guise of “some westerners,” I know when a response is aimed in my direction.
Regardless of what goes on in African countries vis this practice, you are not going to convince me that in this country or any western nation that outlaws this “custom,” that we should in any way sanction it by performing it in our hospitals. No. Fucking. Way.
I find it horrible that this means that more little girls will have this done to them in appalling, unsanitary conditions, but doing it here and making it clean and neat is like prettying up capital punishment by using lethal injections and pretending that this is somehow more humane than shooting someone in the back of the head.
We don’t sanction it. We don’t do it. We prosecute people in this country who do it to their daughters.
And I think it’s completely relevant to point out the positives and negatives in different cultures. Notice I brought up capital punishment. I loathe capital punishment with every fibre of my being. I think it’s barbaric, uncivilized and shameful. I am not going to excuse or forgive or rationalize it because, I don’t know, what’s our excuse here?
There isn’t one! It’s wrong. It’s wrong in the US, it’s wrong in China, and it’s wrong in Africa.
to make assumptions about you. I have asked you some questions, and maybe they are questions that displease you. But I do not have the power to see what is in your heart. I can only ask you to look there, and answer the questions to yourself, you have no obligation to answer them to me. 🙂
I’m sorry, but I believe you are being dishonest about your intentions with this comment. At least that is how I interpret what you have written here today. I’m willing to consider that I may have misinterpreted what you’ve said.
as plain as day just below that he does not support genital mutilation.
I strongly suggest you go and rethink the 0 ratings you have given him below, I presume because you misinterpreted him.
handed out any 0, 1 or 2 ratings on this thread. I have troll-rated…I think three people on this site in all the time I’ve posted here…it takes a lot for me to do that. I haven’t done so here.
Please check to see who has rated what and whom before leaping to conclusions.
Thanks, I appreciate that you took the time to clarify.
the “game points.” If someone will receive an emotional benefit from assigning a particular score to something I say, I am humbly pleased to be of service.
I have made a diary on the subject of Female Genital Mutilation for those with an interest.
If desired, I will post a “tip jar” to it so that people can put the zeros or ones or whatever and feel better. 🙂
that while I am personally not in favor of it, I believe that if parents are going to do it, which they are, it is worse to force the little girls to endure it without anesthesia or sterile conditions.
I understand that it is a popular view, but I am opposed to it.
Seeing as DF posted above in favour of female genital mutilation
This is most distressing. He did not post in favor of FGM. I do not agree with his notion that we should allow US hospitals to perform such surgery but nowhere did I see him post ‘in favor’ of FGM or, as your statement implies, advocate for it or allowing it.
Susan was making the argument that this ‘cultural sensitivity’ business goes too far and used FGM in US hospitals as an example. He was offended to see FGM linked with Islam and pointed out that it’s worse without anesthesia and antiseptic conditions.
I agree that sometimes cultural sensitivity goes too far but certainly not in the blog’s ongoing discussion centered on the cartoons. Quite the opposite.
This is becoming a very ugly business.
I’d love to see Duckie frontpaged.
Susan: I haven’t read all behind the conflict, or all the comments, but enough to say this. I have respect for your professionalism, your integrity and your humanity. Although I can understand why some people became upset, I think your apology/explanation was quite sufficient. I’m sorry that you are hurt by something like this. You are a good and kind person. Like others, I do not want to see you going anywhere. Stay at the pond, and keep doing the wonderful things that you do. How can we all help you with the monitor and the eye exam?
I wasn’t going to post here for a while, since I’m recovering from minor surgery and the pain pills are probably making me goofier than usual, even. It was kind of weird to finally drop by and see Susan’s lament about a tempest that had entirely passed me by.
Haven’t tried to find the comments Susan refers to, but judging by the emotionality, must assume they were personal and nasty. In which case, I suggest that those who posted them be the ones to consider getting the hell out of town. Susan has done amazing stuff here — I’m not sure BT would have grown to its present prominence without her constant contributions.
As to the issue at hand, Susan, you have absolutely nothing to apologize for, no matter by what route the cartoon got posted. The thing’s been spread around the world now, thanks largely to the fanatics who think freedom of speech should be abolished because sometimes it goes against their petty little “faiths”. This is the kind of crap that makes me despair of American “liberalism”. Everybody is “offended” 24/7. And that’s all that supposed to be necessary. No rational response, no reasoned argument, just the claim to be offended is now sufficient cause to force other people to shut up.
Personally, I’m sick to death of this whole notion that there’s some special “sacredness” to organized religion. In the real world saying you believe this or that story doesn’t give you any more credibility or holiness or privilege than if you’re an atheist or communist or vegetarian or NRA member or bird watcher. People have been conned by “faith-based” this or that for so long that the “believers” around the world have come to think they have a special right to immunity from all opposition to their political acts and intellectual claims. Bullshit. As far as I’m concerned, the faith-ridden, like everyone else, have an absolute right to express themselves. And if they can’t stand the responses, they also have a right to, at long last, STFU. Assholes like Falwell, Graham, and Dobson deserve no special consideration here, any more than some loony ayatollah in Iran or Denmark. “By their fruits ye shall know them.” By that standard, none of the Sky God cults have anything to be proud of.
of those people who have been “conned” by one of the “Sky God cults.” Rather than launch a full-scale rant regarding the left and the way its hostility towards people of faith is just as extreme as the far-right’s toward non-believers, I am going to take your advice and STFU, or else I will garner my first host of troll ratings at a site I’ve supported since the day it has launched.
{{{Manny}}}
Hmmmmmm, seems to me someone is looking for a reason to hate the west more then they do already. Where is the indignation when we attack christianity. I’m a religion hater just because of shit like happened here. Wars without end in the name of gods without faces. Get a grip.
Besides God is a Buddhist I saw it on South Park.
This is a custom that predates all the Abrahamic faiths. What do you know about why it is done, according to the people, including Jews and Christians, who practice it?
And do you know Muslims are actually more likely not to do it, even in the countries where it is prevalent?
If I really hated the west, would I waste my time trying to explain things like this?
In these cultures, these parents are going to do this. they have done it for thousands of years, and it is such a deep value that it will take generations for it to even lessen, and it will probably never stop completely.
There are people who are working very hard to change the custom, but the way to do that is NOT to doom the children who are going to have it to the worst possible scenarios.
The hate is not about me hating the west, it is about westerners who hate everything non-western so much that they will even wish torture on children if their parents will not abandon their customs!
A side note on FGM: my African drum teacher (a man from a remote village in a Muslim village in Africa) is adamantly opposed to FGM. He fought his wives tooth-and-nail to prevent them from ‘circumcising’ his own daughters. He failed. It was the women in his community who wanted to do it, and they did it.
Who am I to judge?
Is it any of my business whatsoever, as a non-Muslim, non-African woman to judge what is ‘morally’ acceptable to these other women?
I respect those women’s views. They are not ‘ignorant,’ they are not ‘primitive,’ they are not ‘barbarian’ ‘backwoods’ butchers.
It is their issue.
Indeed, there are many, many Muslim women who oppose the practice. That is their business. I have the option of supporting those women in their efforts–financially, morally, and otherwise. I do not have the option of imposing my moral values upon them. It is not my place to determine what is right or wrong for them.
Think about the deformities women in the west subject themselves to (plastic surgery, breast implants, etc.). I am as horrified by these things as I am by FGM, but hey….if that’s what they want to do, so be it.
I’m talking about your overall offense at the cartoon. Please do not pretend to misunderstand. You are always waiting for an opportunity to self-righteously lash out with your contempt for the US. But we live here we have to solve this shit and get these fuckers out of office.
I can’t sit back and say hooray the world will rise up and punish us for our past and present sins as you have done in the past. I live here.
I think agents from our government may have planted you here to whip up anti-islamic sentiments. How’s that for a conspiracy theory.
Yes, choices have consequences, and yes, most of the world has a different view regarding priority of their children having a future. Maybe you will see it as they do not have as much Resolve to make sacrifcies to help US companies generate additional revenues. I do not deny that. It is a difference in values, yes, but it is the choice that the American people have made and I do not think they are so stupid as not to realize the price. They are willing to pay it. The rest of the world is not.
I do not believe that anti-Islamic sentiments can be “whipped up” by posters to a blog. Nor would there be any need for Washington to deploy operatives to whip them up on any US site.
This one actually has less of it than any I know about, at least among the posters, of course on any US site there will be some. I did not realize the strength of susan’s views until now, still I believe she has a right to express them, as do you. 🙂
Then lets just let this go. Lets get back to freedom for Palestine and ending the Iraq war. Lets get back to being indignant about war criminals and profiteers. Peace
Susan,
Though I posted a comment expressing astonishment at your phjrasing concerning “…the Muslims“, (as though the entire Muslim community was rioting over these idiotic cartoons), I support you and your diary and the inclusion of the poster totally.
I’m both disamayed, and a bit embarrased, that there’s so much accusatory and grandiose, emotionally charged rhetoric flying around about this. Frankly a lot of the sentimentalism expressed over this I find embarrassing. (I’m sure I’ll catch flak for that remark too, though I don’t say it with then intent to provoke such flak).
I love the community here and I’ve come to regard this place as my “cyber home”, as someone else described it. and I might be sorry to see anyone choose to depart the site because of this issue. But, I’d be sorrier still if you felt you needed to keep defending yourself for expressing yourself openly and hnestly, and more importantly, if you feel you have to devote an inordinate amount of effort trying to find ways to avoid hurting the tender feelings of so many people here.
We are all, presumably, for the most part, adults, and the world does not exist to cater to our every emotion or sensitivity. I’m just as sensitive as the next person about all manner of things, but I don’t assume I have a right to expect others to be sensitive to my sensitivities. I don’t ever seek to offend anyone, or seek to divide people against each other, and to the extent that I can I try to find language that will resonate with whoever I’m speaking with in a way that (I hope) will help convey the meaning of whatever it is I’m saying, but I have no interest or intention of altering the meaning or intent of what I’m saying just to avoid hurting other’s feelings. when a situation arises where it is important that I don’t hurt someone’s feelings, then I talk about something else, but those situations are rare, and if I were a blog host like you, the last thing I’d do is feel compelled to restrain my self from honest expression because a reader might not be able totake it emotionally.
Blah blah blah. So please keep speaking your mind and demonstrating the forthrightness and diligence and humanity that are so much a part of your being. People may leave, and others will come. and please don’t be afraid to speak your mind. when that fear takes hold, democracy is over.
crap
i wrote a reply to the im offended diary earlier and just as i was finishing my cable died and i lost my connection and didnt have the energy to do it again….and now i come back to this….well i do have a few things to say;
A) did people actually look at the cartoons in question? hard to do if no one will print them anywhere….and thats whats wrong with so many people in this country….they dont do any research or critical thinking or get evidence and they believe the last thing they read…..i did find 4 of the cartoons and my impression was they were making fun at or more probably criticising fundamentalist muslims who have hijacked the religion and the arab world….and the people protesting this are bearing out my suspicians….there are plenty of muslim voices finally coming thru the din who not only dont find the cartoons offensive, but are defending the publishing of them and their message.
B) regardless of whether anyone finds them offensive…in a free speech society we tolerate ideas and speech that offends us all the time….that means even though i dont like it i have to allow and protect the safety of klansmen on parade, abortion protestors in front of clinics, homophobes at the gay pride parade, and jerk offs who use the word whore when describing prostitutes and politicians.
C) you dont have to like the speech or support the ideas behind it to defend the right to express it….i personally found Maplethorpe’s Piss Christ a bit much and i completely understood why many christians, and not just narrow minded intolerant nincompoop christians, found it offensive….but i do not support the governments attemps to censor that image in any way.
D) i am one of those people that believes in changing the channel, in monitoring my own children when they are on the internet instead of insisting the govt do it….i dont feel like the govt needs to censor much of anything in this society….thats not to say i support hate speech….i am perfectly capable of parsing this issue….i love porn and i do not support violence towards women…..i do not believe being paid for sex is degrading to all women….i can watch king kong (the original) and not get all wound up about the portrayal of the islanders….that doesnt make me a racist.
E) i think every media outlet, as a symbol of solidarity in support of a free press, should print those cartoons and explain why….the hateful moralists wont care and they will bitch but this is not the time to back down to any religious fundamentalist group…that would be very bad precedent.
F) several people have commented they are for free press but have to draw a line somewhere…here is the problem with drawing the line…who gets to draw it? i guarantee you it wont be progressives…we are an ineffective and mostly powerless minority.
G) chill out susan….you didnt do anything wrong and you really dont owe an explanation….i appreciate your attempt to smoothe this over….actually im thinking you may need a CODA meeting….i can totally relate to your walking on eggshells monitoring everything you print worried you will hurt someones feelings….just relax….you are doing a good job here and i will be very upset if this drives you or anyone else away.
May I respectfully remind that the cartoons were published in Denmark, not the United States, and Denmark has different laws concerning free speech. There is a diary about the cartoons and Danish law by observer393 here.
I think that is a terrible idea. Unless the western media wants to make it a point to tell Muslims that “we don’t give a crap about you and your feelings”. Talk about pouring gasoline into a fire..
Best fucking comment of the day!
I am troubled by the suggestion stated in the post featuring the poster that said poster should be displayed widely as a fine example of free speech. I view it as a fine example of demonization of Muslims.
If you ran across that poster stuck to a wall somewhere, would you not think that the creator of said poster intended to depict Muslims as terrorists and that the “free speech” quote was intended to indicate support for the right to express one’s hatred of Muslims? For pity sake, it’s the founder of Islam sporting a bomb in his turban! That’s not ridicule of religion–that’s portraying members of the religion as dangerous and inviting viewers to fear and hate them!
Whether you agree or disagree with anybody’s religious views, I would think that we can agree that it isn’t a good thing to spread more hate around.
to reconsider the call to post the cartoon around peoples’ neioghborhoods, at the same time that I acknowledge her right to express her belief.
And I realize that it is somewhat at odds with the concept of free speech, which I am very much in favor of.
But although it is her right, I asked it as a request, because I believe that despite her views of Muslims, she would feel a sadness if the cartoon inspired some solidarity against another person.
There is enough of that going on already, even without the cartoons on the utility poles.
Thank you, RH. This is what I have found very disturbing.
I think the average person who saw this on a light pole would have no idea that this was one of the “controversial cartoons.” It looks to me like an evil, sneering semitic (who would even know it was meant to be Muhammed? It’s what . . ? An Arab? A Muslim? An ArabMuslim? – most Americans think these are synonyms) man – who is hiding a bomb and is threatening violence and death to me and mine.
I just finished reading soj’s Big Lie diary about propaganda. We shouldn’t be helping the propagandists. Free to repeat propaganda is not what I mean by free speech.
Absolutely nothing to do with religion or sensitivity ot it – I’m an atheist myself with little patience for religion. But it looks like a call to “hate people who look like that. They want to kill you and your children.”
Booman’s right: this shit is intended to inflame, & it’s working all too well — in the mid east — & here at home. Free speech is near to a religious belief for many of us — I’ll defend David Duke’s right to say whatever he wants, etc. Also believe in responsibility. One can also develop a fundamentalist attitude as well and see the issue as only one of free speech.
I hope, Susan, that you will go back & re-read Amy’s interview. I heard it on-air, & thought as’Ad intelligent & useful insights on the subject than CNN/Fox news commentator (as he rlelentlessly pointed out) Manji. Reading it only further confirmed that his were the more insightful, complex & nuanced comments. Citing her here seems odd.
I do hope that with some time for thought & cooling off that you & Booman will not ‘stand by’ the poster image as FP material.
“Free Speech” here is a canard.
(I hope you understand the deep repsect I have for your writing & the empathy it demonstrates. It’s a major reason why I ever settled here.)
I missed most of it yesterday and haven’t had time to go back.
Amy is on Hardball today, btw.
Angry Arab is okay but he’s a bit tempestuous, as he notes in his own nickname.
I just heard a reporter on MSNBC repeat the lie that it’s against the Koran to portray the Muslims’ prophet in any image. … there’s a lot of misinformation … and a lot of hot-headedness and my-way-or-the-highway kinda talk that is frankly disillusioning. I havent’ held out much hope for the human race — I hold out less now.
Last week, it was Damnit Janet’s report from Portland, that the Democrats hearing Hillary Clinton were physically abusive to the Code Pink protestors, which appalled me. I can see why they’d be upset with the Code Pink protest but they — of all people — should never try to physically harm a protestor or throw them out. Let them say their piece, and continue on. Same here.
It was only after Muslims went to the MidEast from Europe and inflamed this old issue that it became a hot deal. Why did they do that? The cartoons were printed in SEPTEMBER of last year. Why now all of a sudden? So some people on this site can try to dictate to the rest of us how we should think and react?
I don’t care if others don’t agree with me. But to villify me, and make wild assumptions? That’s out of bounds.
I thought Savage was dead wrong to make this into a free speech issue & that championing it was poor judegement. If that is your opinion, I find it unfortunate, but fully support your right to publish it.
I’ve nothing but contempt for the demagogues of all stripes taking advantage of this. That’s it’s also a psy-op seems obvious now.
As’Ad appears now & then on KPFA. I generally like his smart-assed post-colonial, ‘take no prisoners no matter what their ideology’ critique. In the interview w/ Amy, she sounded like the right-wing shill to provide ‘balance’ which DN! sometimes does format-wise.
Anyhoos, hope you feel better soon, & if you get a chance, take a look at the Haitian elections diary I posted.
thank you for the post. You know that I have the deepest respect for your work. I don’t doubt your commitment towards human rights, peace, etc. I’m sorry that you have been hurt by the pushback on this. My disagreement is not a personal one with you, I hope you know that.
That being said, my opinion is that the posting of that image to make a point that free speech should be upheld, was a mistake. Unfortunately, my opinion on it has already been mocked as resulting from being thin-skinned or resulting from an apparent bias I have towards fellow cult-members of the sky god club.
I wish it were that simple, but it’s not. I have a right to be offended by that image just as much as you have a right to post it. It is my preference, however, that the frontpage of this site not promote an image that is being used to inflame the xenophobia necessary for the Bush War Council’s next adventure.
So that’s a glimpse of what I am feeling.
We love you, Susan. Period.
My own feelings about this are of no great concern, but I am deeply distressed by this wound in the community.
Susan, I love your work, and I am particularly distressed at how you are doing right now, with health, controversy, attacks, and principles in question. I want you to get well, to have a better computer.
I do, however, find the image terribly offensive, and was shocked to see here. While I retain deep suspicions about how these images came to be circulated at this particular time, it is here, in this community, among people that we have come to know and to love and respect that we see most clearly the great damage that is caused by these kinds of things. One of the rules of this site has been “don’t be a prick”. We’ve mostly used that to try to handle other kinds of things. I think most of us, myself included, don’t think of that rule as applying to this situation. It seems too small, too personal, in a way, to apply to what we see as this, and internationally significant free speech issue.
And it is a free speech issue. But that’s the problem with free speech. I have not read the other diaries about this – I’ve been away almost entirely from reading or commenting here due to other obligations, so I apologize if this has been said before. Free speech is a dangerous freedom, one that I would never want to do away with. One of the dangers in this case, however, is thinking that people we know, or that we think we know, understand how we feel and will not be upset or offended if we are not offended. Or it seems logical that persons here who find the image offensive will understand that the principle of free speech trumps any restraint of free speech.
Actually, we restrain our speech all the time. Most of us don’t talk in front of children as we do to adults. We confine our expressions at work more than at our favorite bar, etc. But here, those kinds of restraints aren’t what we worry about. We feel mostly released to express our strongest political feelings, and many personal ones as well, and mostly we’ve smoothed out rough patches that have occurred, and this is another one.
If we ourselves are not religious, we may not understand that some kinds of expressions against religions are both personal, profane, and indicative of deep, fundamental misunderstanding and rejection of identity. I do not in any way want to say that the situations are equivalent, but I am reminded of a couple of professional colleagues who cannot understand why I am so offended by their frequent, fervently expressed opinions that women as a group are stupid, emotional, and unsuited for most kinds of professional occupations. They did not see that their expressions of positive regard for my intellect as an exception to their general belief were in no way a compensation for their opinions. There was no compensation. Again, I apologize for using a personal and not terribly pertinent example. I am just struggling to express something of what the blinders are that our own perspectives can provide.
It is very hard to understand the offense of this picture if it means little to us except as a free speech issue. We do, however, have no trouble understanding that Susan is hurt, is feeling terrible, wounded, even, and we rush to put our arms around her. We want to protect her and heal her. We may feel the same way about Ductape also, because he is a vital and very important member of this community. And I would love to inject a bit of levity here and demonstrate how positively I feel about Ductape, but this is a serious situation. We know him – in some ways – and he knows us – in some ways. It may seem natural to see the offense he (and others) have expressed as something that personal gestures will overcome, and they may, in time, and in part. However, the larger offense is there, and we should not expect any individual here that is touched by identity or belief or culture to overcome that easily and feel accepted.
So, I would like to see that image removed. Not to deny free expression, but to promote our “peaceable assembly”.
I apologize for being lengthy, and incoherent.
Let me quickly add that my concern is not for the specific offense expressed by any single individual here – Ductape, you are our shining example in your uniqueness, alas for you.
I have many Islamic students, and they daily suffer from small gestures of isolation, rejection, hostility, in ways most of us cannot imagine. I’d love to tell you about some of those great young people specifically if we could talk fact to face, but that’s not my point. These images are not separated from their daily existence. Some of them have expressed their deep offense at the cartoons, as well as their strong support of free speech as a principle. They are distressed at the widening of conflict that the cartoons’ publication and republication is generating. If any one, it is their concerns that make me disheartened to see this image here.
Susan, I’m still the founder and a member of the SusanHu fan club (the first comment). I’ve always had great respect for the work you do and love reading your diaries. I missed the specific diary, but I always think of bloggers by how they behave over time and not by a mistake or a poorly worded sentence. And by this measure, few can match what you have done as a blogger.
Susan, I respect you. You are a good writer and a good person. You ask us to listen to what you are feeling and to accept and understand that you are sick, have a small monitor, do good work for Muslims around the world and above all, meant no offense by posting the cartoon.
That is all well and good and many have rushed to your defense or to provide comfort to you with their words & offers of assistance via PayPal. I myself gave you assistance when you wanted to send D’Arcy to LA. We care about you.
But truly, the other side of the coin is being missed. And it’s fucking tragic.
Ductape, myself, catnip, and many others were offended deeply that you posted a picture of the Prophet, the symbol of Islam, with a bomb in his turban. And I’m an atheist. Sorry, but that not only incites the hidden & insidious nature of anti-THEM propaganda but in this day and age is incredibly dangerous to billions of people around the world. We are heading towards a precipice and we on the left can either choose to go along over the edge or actually show that sympathy and empathy and compassion towards all others and all other beliefs that we are supposedly known for.
Yes, freedom of speech is a part of the equation. But so is understanding that real people could suffer here because not all of us ‘get’ the joke. Some will see that picture and automatically associate Mohammed with al-Qaeda. That could lead to a world war. As Soj points out 65% of Americans, at least, could be convinced to go to war with Iran. People could die. And on a closer to home level, some white Christian fundamentalist nutjob could decide to take it out on the Yemeni at the 7/11. And maybe one day the person who it’s taken out on is someone you know. Someone like Ducky.
And Ducky knows this. He feels it. And he doesn’t feel that you want to understand that (okay, now I’m speaking for someone I disagree with half the time… although he is my patron saint…), yet you are asking us to understand your position and be okay with it.
I’d be okay with your position if you had taken the picture down & re-worded your post. Perhaps waited until you were feeling better. Because it’s hurtful to people in this community and around the world. And that’s what we are supposed to be about as progressives – compassion and understanding. If you didn’t mean to post it and understand why it’s offensive, why not take it down? Would you leave a similar poster of a Rabbi up for as long as this one has stayed up? Even after the Jewish and non-Jewish members of this site asked you to please remove it? What about a picture of Jesus molesting a young boy?
Somethings are not truly free. There is always a cost. It is up to each of us to understand what price we are exacting when we do something like decide your free speech rights are more important than others you care about feelings, beliefs or safety. Sometimes it’s just that simple and just that complex.
Do you actually think that Susan’s inclusion of this pathetically childish cartoon image on this site here is going to change anyone’s mind in favor of attacking Muslims?
I am astonished at the levels of irrational, emotion-based judgmentalism being directed at Susan on this site.
No, but urging people to post that around their neighbourhood just might.
I’m amazed at the level of non-rational thought about what she did and said (both posts) and emotional rationalization directed at Susan on this site. She fucked up. Big time. She refuses to own up to it and take the picture down and remove the exhortation to post it in your community. I have every right to be offended.
Yes! And as far as I can see no one is claiming you don’t have the right to be offended or that there is something wrong with you being offended, and yet you apparently believe that free speech should be suppressed and in doing so give religious extremists even more power over the psyches of their followers.
Sorry. I just don’t agree with either your logic or your judgment on this issue. I support the quote on that poster completely, and I sincerely regret that the accompanying image has now been removed, not because I liked the image or thought it was appropriate, but because it was there to begin with as an expression of free speech and has now been removed under pressure from censorious judgmental people just because they didn’t think it was appropriate.
I have no idea what the depths are of your own beliefs or sensibilities on this. For me, I can think of no image, no language, no phrase so powerful in it’s ugliness, so offensive in it’s content, that I would deem it deserving of censorship. If I thought for a minute that Susan’s intent in running that poster’s image was to denigrate Islam or muslims I would have had harsh words to say about that, and would, under those circumstances have to rethink my participation on this site. But I in no way believe susan is even capable of such shabby intent and so I’m not going to remder a judgment against her by marshalling somesort of argument that she’s feeding the flames of hatred and intolerance by posting an ugly cartoon or offensive text. We quote massive ugliness on the blogs every day from the likes of all the wingnut hatemongers; unequivocal ugliness. Susan’s point about free speech, and the text accompanying this cartoon image are completely legitimate in my opinion, and to judge her the way you are so adversely because you don’t agree with this, (or because you place the entire emphasis of your judgment aginst her on just the carton image), strikes me as uncalled for.
I used to be more prone to quickly condemning the actions of others when I didn’t agree with them, but I’ve since learned that things aren’t always so sharply defined as I once imagined. So I try to understand more and judge less.
Well, I actually agree with a lot of your post, except for the fact that you are now imposing your beliefs about what my point is and why I believed strongly the cartoon and the words that encouraged us to post it around our communities should have been removed.
I’ll try and do a better job explaining my viewpoint.
Would you feel comfortable when hanging out with a bunch of people at a restaurant, some of whom are Muslim, showing them that picture and telling everyone else at the table they should post it around their community? Keep in mind you have just been chatting about how the US is preparing public opininon for a new war against Muslims. You’ve also been talking about racisim, media control of opinion, white phosphorous, Abu Ghraib, Gitmo, etc. etc. and you all agree these are dangerous times. You also unfortunately, a little bit before, said “The Muslims need to learn to get along with the rest of the world” in response to a discussion about the completely unacceptable violent (ie. property damage, no deaths or physical assaults, except by police) response by a small segment of the Muslim population. Now, you apologized for it, but it was still a sore subject and then you go ahead and whip out Mohammed with a bomb.
Would you feel comfortable, personally, for the sake of your right to free speech within the community of people you are dining with, to do that? What would you say to the person sitting across from you who thought that was in incredibly bad taste and couldn’t believe you would think it acceptable to go ahead and post that around your neighbourhood… I mean, with all the fucking whackjobs out there just itching to take out his aggression on towelhead over there? Come on. You really think Joe uber-American is gonna read or understand the quote?? No way, it’s standard advertising man, they’ll see the picture and have made up their minds about what it means within 3 seconds. And it means Islam=terrorism.
Do I think Susan thinks that? Hell no, but I sure as hell am incredibly disappointed that instead of just saying “damn, okay, I didn’t mean that at ALL, I understand the whole free speech thing, but you’re right, it’s not a good association to be making and I can just grab the quote and get rid of terror-prophet.”
So yeah, it may seem illogical to you, but I’m looking at it from a different perspective. One that says, no way is the violent response by some unacceptable, and no way is associating an entire religion and people with terrorism. That’s just fucking ignorant and racist. And it has no place at a dinner table I’m at. Whether it was intended that way or not. No matter how much I know the person didn’t mean it. We all make mistakes, but I wouldn’t just sit there and let the picture sit in the middle of the table either. I’d either remove it or I’d leave and let everyone there know it was totally inappropriate in my view. But that’s just me I suppose.
I want to respond as precisely as I can because I think it’s important to find a meeting ground of sorts where possibly divergent priorities can nevertheless co-exist.
First of all, I personally would have no problem using that particular poster as an example of how the concepts of free speech and what someone here has termed “cultural sensitivity” can seem to be at odds with each other. And, in the interests of emphasizing the importance of the idea of freedom of speech as an essential building block, I could use this poster as an examle for that too, pointing out that a childish cartoon likely to be found offensive by many people offers a very strong target to those who vigorously oppose the idea of free speech and prefer their own rigid authoritarian theocratic form of rule with them at the top. I could also point out that not everyone who might display this cartoon image is doing so with the intent of offending anyone, and that the fact that people might be offended is not dependent on the intent of the person displaying the image. I could even go so far as to point out that ironically, in the case of these particular cartoons, it is the Danish imams who journeyed to Lebanon, Syria and Egypt who were the ones responsible for disseminating the images to the largest audience with the specific intent of inciting outrage against the (generalized) “West”, and that many in the West now were actually serving almost as “apologists” for these craven promoters of violence, having been outmaneuvered strategically in much the same way as the Democrats in america seem to be so regularly out maneuvered by the Republican propaganda machine.
But, if the purpose of my table discussion, (or my blog post), was to talk about how I regarded the importance of free speech as a primal importance that in the end could not be sacrificed for the sake of catering to emotional sensitivity about certain topics or issues, then I might not go into all that other stuff I alluded to in the previous paragraph.
For me, just to be clear, whether an image or a text or an idea is offensive and ugly is functionally beside the point as far as defending the freedoms we need to defend are concerned. While I fully acknowledge that hateful speech and insulting behavior go a long way towards weaponizing the ignorance of masses of people and deploying them in eventual acts of violence, I do not see how we can legislate against ideas or speech or belief, no matter how ugly such ideas or beliefs might be. We can only legislate against actions taken as a result of those beliefs. We cannot imprison the child molester or the bank robber before they commit the crime. We can’t send the future murderer to prison for life if he hasn’t yet committed the murder. We need to educate against those ideas and beliefs that drive people to perpetrate these acts, but we’ll never be able to legislate mutual respect in the hearts of men, any more than we’d be able to legislate good taste. And this is why education is important and why censorship is never an effective remedy. This is why pre-emption as a doctrine for governmental policy always invites catastrophe. By convicting our opponents before they act to oppose us, we become the criminal. (Dictatorial psychopaths like Cheney and his neocons don’t grasp this, Netanyahu doesn’t get it, and neither do many of the prominent Islamists who are seeking the same war as Cheney and Netanyahu are).
For all the outrage expressed here on this site in these 2 or 3 comment threads over these damned cartoons, there are a hundred more worthy targets of our outrage everyday, happenings where people are being slaughtered, impoverished, disenfranchised, robbed, poisoned by unscrupulous manipulators. If we are truly concerned for the welfare of the planet, for the well being of our brothers and sisters all across the world, these fucking cartoons should be well down the scale of our outrage meter. The media and the warmongers and the armageddon enthusiasts are driving this story. And it is the symbiosis amongst them, these megalomaniacal crazies , the Cheney neocons, the evangelical fascists and their Islamic counterparts, who are all aligned on the same side, singing from the same hymnal, so to speak; and it is we, the regular people western and eastern, muslim and non muslim christian and non christian, who stand in opposition to them. We have to learn, and share with each other, the idea that being offended by cartoons is nothing but a diversion, that it is our own leaders who are the ones who seek to weaken the strength of our own faiths, (Dobson & Falwell here in the US, whovever their counterparts are in the Muslim sphere), in order to make us afraid so they can weaponize us in pursuit of their war and their own glory at our expense. If we learn that, then these meaningless slights have no power, and just like the invective of our own homegrown US hatemongers like Coulter and O’Reilly and Limbaugh their significance will dissipate like smoke in the wind.
You and I will never agree. I was raised as a Canadian in a diverse and vibrant country where tolerance and compassion for the feelings of others takes precendence over your ‘right’ to say hurtful things. It’s just manners basically.
For a view of the Canadian stance on this I recommend you check out the words of our new, conservative, foreign minister. It says it all for me and much better then I have been able to do obviously.
Freedom of speech should be defended absolutely. But being an asshole just to prove a point doesn’t do it for me as I try to understand and show compassion for others.
The Star
I agree completely with your statement above.
I’ve lived a lot of different places in the world over the years, including a couple where the very idea of freedom of speech could get you arrested, jailed or shot just for talking about it; places where you always had to be concerned about whatever you said, (and yes, in societies where free speech is absent, it always develops that people are worried all the time about virtually everything they say). This is but one more powerful way how the terror of tyranny increases it’s iron grip on the people in case someone in authority might take it badly. So,having witnessed first hand what it’s like when freedom of speech is denied, having been in more or less constant jeopardy because of this absence, perhaps my perspective is different than yours. I do not ever seek to offend people just because I can. You may think shielding people from offensive hatefulspeech is more important than the institution of free speech being a fundamental, inviolable right in a socially responsible society. If this is yoyur assessment, I disagree on that point totally.
In the previous comment, this; in case someone in authority might take it badly., is supposed to follow this: …worried all the time about virtually everything they say
Peoples’ Republic of China, 1979. If you’ve never lived in a place where speech and thought are so heavily stifled, you just have no idea what it does to people.
My primary experience at the receiving end of dictatorship was in Argentina under Videla and the generals in the late ’70s. I’m born and mostly raised in the US but my wife at that time was Argentine and we lived down there most of the time for about 3 years. even though I was a gringo from the US and at least theoretically enjoyed some insulation from that, the fear and trepidation permeated every aspect of society and made people so suspicious of each other that true social harmony was almost impossible to experience.
For me, however considerate I may be of other people’s feelings, if the simple freedoms of speech and thought are destroyed if they are sacrificed for the sake of not giving offense, it won’t matter if we’re considerate of others or not because the extremist maniacs always seize authority when those freedoms vanish. Always
in this country? Do we encourage others to post their posters around our neighborhoods, as though that was “free speech”, a uni-dimensional message?
Yikes.
I think we do permit the Klan to have free speech, and I think anyone who wants to advocate for the benefits of free speech is fully entitled to post things about it around town, whether such information is deemed offensive by someor not.
If we lived in a theocracy or some other form ofauthoritarian dictatorship, such mightnot be the case, but so far, (in the US), we still manage to retain this freedom. It may not last that much longer, especially if BushCo declares martial law, (or declares that statements against the state jeopardize the security of the nation), or if the evangelical crazies attain more power, but I will treasure anddefend these freedoms as long as I’m able.
I’d rather leave this site (which by the way is something I detest seeing others threaten), for my own physical and mental health, than endure attacks, particularly from people who aren’t kindly towards … never mind ….
Aren’t kindly towards who or what, Susan? Are you bringing out old, false accusations against me again, Susan? If so, do it. Get it out now. In public.
Yes, Susan, please do. I for one would LOVE to finally hear what the “creative differences” were that drove catnip to take her break and cease and desist posting on the front page here. Even though I had an email exchange with her back then, she was classy enough never to say ONE word about it.
Reading all of this had made me sick — you are complaining about people villifying and making false assumptions about you?! What the hell do you call what you did to me? At least you didn’t make bullshit excuses for it, you just urged me to call a mental health hotline. Right out there in public for all to see and when I defended myself from your outrageous slurs, in rode Martin to your defense and villified me even further. You DESTEST people threatening to leave the site? Give me a fucking break.
I guess you get what you dish out, eh? I’ve heard it’s called karma.
While the original image of this poster is apparently seen by many here as unfortunate, for me this current image represents the epitome of failure in the matter of that most fundamental right of free specch and expression, a right absolutley essential to any enlightened culture.
Susan,
Uhm, I don’t feel like I know you as well as many of the other posters here, so I feel odd handing out warm fuzzy sentiments, but after reading this thread, I just want to say, hang in there.
Do what you think is right, stick to your guns, defend you actions and learn from doing and don’t let anyone get under your skin. I think you are doing a fine job.
Susan, first, I hope you are resting now, drinking plenty of liquids and helping your body fight off this flu. You picked a fine time to stick your hand into a hornet’s nest ;).
Life would be so much easier if mind melds were actually possible. I want scientists to work on that right after they get the jet packs on order. But anyway, as they haven’t yet, I’ll try my best to explain my concerns.
I came to BooTrib yesterday and the first thing I saw was the Free Speech vs Fascism posting, the first paragraph of which was incorrect and just got worse from there. I’ve gotten used to encountering views diametrically opposed to mine from some of the guest posters, though, so I just scrolled on by… and came to the next post.
That one was like a kick in the stomach. Not only because of what it said, and the picture, but because it was you who were quite gleefully saying it. I was saddened, not only by the complete buying in to the right wing frame on the issue, but by the realization that you probably had no clue that anyone would be offended by it, or why. For one thing, you don’t have any frame of reference for it (blonde jokes don’t count, I’m afraid). I think it’s possible that you still are a bit unclear on what was offensive to some, but I will attempt to explain from my own perspective (others no doubt have different ones).
I didn’t know Ductape was Muslim… in fact, I still don’t know that, as he can and does speak with equal affection, humor and knowledge on any religion or culture from South American corn goddesses to Talmudic sayings to Catholic rituals and rites. And, of course, of Islam and various cultures pre and post Islam, in different areas of the world. Me, I think he is all of them and the offense would be the same if another group were substituted. But anyway…
I am not Muslim. Or Christian. Or Pagan or anything at all, but that’s not really the point. And I don’t in any way support the cultures (whether enforced by people using or misusing religions or no) that oppress women, especially, or anyone else. I was trying to bring attention to the plight of women under the Taliban way before 9/11, when it seems most of the world discovered Afghanistan – at which time they promptly decided to bomb it almost out of existence, but still. I also don’t support violence, or threats or anything, etc, etc, please assume all caveats.
The issue with the posting, for me, was not only the echoing of what amounts to anti muslim hysteria, but also the echoes of anti this or that group of times past. It’s an insidious thing, this idea that this time we’re in the right, those people have gone too far, who do they think they are, we’ll show them how we handle things, they are causing all sorts of trouble, they need a lesson in how things work here. Not that you said any of this stuff (as far as I remember) but it’s all part and parcel of the same thing… especially when you are approvingly referencing virulently anti Muslim (as well as other groups) people like Sullivan, in the beginning paragraph. Sort of infuses the rest with his pathology.
Well, I think it’s possible that I’ve not managed to be as clear as I wanted to be, but my point is (or at least one of them)… I don’t agree with the idea of being deliberately offensive to any group, especially marginalized ones (particularly since I am in one of them ;), or ones already under attack just because we can. That smacks not so much of free speech to me, as it does self indulgence. It doesn’t much matter which group it is, the principle is the same.
That’s not to say there are not issues to be discussed regarding the current events, including the free press/speech matters, psy ops, respect vs capitulation and so on… just not in this particular way.
Gah! Thankfully this is coming at the end of a long, margin busted thread, so my incoherence won’t matter quite so much. Sigh.
Susan, me and all the raccoons in my neighborhood are holding a candlelight vigil for your swift recovery and speedy return to the front page. To me and the local critters, this place is the Suebooraccoomantribune.
But, for god’s sake, hurry, woman– the clumsy little fuckers are spilling candlewax everywhere AND eating my asparagus shoots.
Susan, me and all the raccoons in my neighborhood are holding a candlelight vigil for your swift recovery and speedy return to the front page. To me and the local critters, this place is the Suebooraccoomantribune.
But, for god’s sake, hurry, woman– the clumsy little fuckers are spilling candlewax everywhere AND eating my asparagus shoots.
(((Susan)))
I’m in Seattle. Today I just PAID RePC downtown $10 to take a monitor from me, that might’ve replaced yours.
There are 12 and a half million (or so) old computer stuff give-away programs here in King county. They even have a pamphlet on it. I mean it, I’m hooked into a few of them, because I was an officer in a computer club here for 5 years.
Do you know that people here are getting rid of perfectly good 17″ computer monitors, because they “want” flat screens? Those are going for maybe $50, if the person gets red-hot lucky. Otherwise, they’re being given away.
I have a friend who lives on the peninsula who’s involved in computer give-aways. He comes over here to the city to pick stuff up and give it away. I have 2 other friends involved in 2 differnt computer give-away programs. I’m going to send you a private email, and see what machine you have, what kind of monitor it would support.
Barring that, a few of us could kick $10 each to buy you a new monitor. Enough of this “lack” thinking, as NVP would say.
“Of note, she is a practicing Muslim, and she points out that there is nothing in the Koran that does not allow an image of the prophet to appear.. That is a “myth.””
enough said. there are ignorant violent people in any fundamentalist, rule based religion. whether it is american christians who want to restrict the rights of women and set our country to their “standards and values”. lucky for us, our religious fundamentalist, no matter how offended are less likely to turn to violence to voice their opinions, and for now, they do not control the state. the problem seems to be ignorant muslims, just like our ignorant christians, who get up in arms about what their preacher/religious leader tells them to be upset about vs what their own religious texts actually say. i think it is hard for at least some americans, for the time being at least, to show much compassion for people who use force and violence to try to force others to live within their religious parameters. for me at least, i feel a very strong need to fight against any kind of extremist group, whether it be religious or not that tries to alter my life based on their beliefs. also, in america right now, the right wing fundies are very actively and with much planning, very seriously trying to bring about a state based on religion and not of law. not only that, it is not just religion/spirituality/values they are trying to impose, it is a very particular brand of religion. i resent any group coming in and trying to tell me what is or is not acceptable based upon their lives and experiences. tolerance goes both ways – for the fundamentalist, you must realize that not every one feels the way you do or believes what you do – and that is ok. idk, i am tired of violence from “religious” groups. it is hypocritical and does not further open dialog and learning about others beliefs and feelings. the violence equals one thing – the need to control. to squash anything that is disagreeable. to incite fear, if you write this we will…if you publish this we will…this is control – not dialog, not asking for understanding, not making a presentation for tolerance, or please, this is sacred to us, it may not be to you, but we ask that you show sensitivity to our beliefs. whether it be muslims or christians, i am damn tired of all of these people using violence, hate and fear to demand respect for their very specific brand of God. these actions, coupled with the gross misconduct of american “religious leaders” only makes me sick. and these are the people asking us for tolerance? when they REFUSE to show it to anyone else? i love how special rules apply to religions.
Sue I am money challeged too and I need reading glasses. You can buy a used monitor at thrift shops fairly cheaply and most are completely usable.
was the cartoon meant to offend or to spark conversation/debate?
either way, it seems to have done both, which i think is a good thing. those who are offended have the opportunity to stop and think why exactly they are offended. is it the portrayal of a prophet? is it the religion linked to violence? how different would it be if it were a picture of a christian with a bomb wrapped around his cross in front of an abortion clinic? would our christians be mad – yep. would it be meant to reflect all christians – nope. would it shed light on the fact that there are violent extremist religous nuts out there – yep. this should open discussion for all kinds of issues. those who do not think much about the subject are given an opportunity to discuss religions and violence, free speech/respect, sacred/anything goes…
Susan,
You are such an asset to this site, and to journalism that you should be awarded a Pulitzer.
THOU SHALT NOT LEAVE THIS SITE.
THOU SHALT HAVE NEW EYEGLASSES TO IMPROVE THY SIGHT.
THOU ART A PERSON WHO IS SO FAR OUT AS TO BE OUTTASITE!!
I love you. Don’t consider leaving. You are the best. Your work on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo documents, your work on human rights issues…. who else would undertake this work with your dedication and discipline, tenacity…. which translates down into HOPE doing the WORK in FAITH THAT JUSTICE WILL PREVAIL.
(I also received a letter from the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights. This letter says: Your work is valuable, even though it may seem thankless and that you struggle on alone… there are countless others around the world working, sometimes in isolation, towards the same goal.)
Susan, I want you to have all the peace, wellness, love that you have earned, and all the money you need… for glasses, and smokes, and maybe a two-day holiday? WHO’S GOT A BETTER RIGHT???
I REALLY LOVE YOU, SUSANHU!!
m. suskind