I’m not even going to bother writing a diary that will go without comment.
Here’s the test…
If you hear your comments, opinions or ideas repeated in the MSM or any of BushCo entities, then consider yourself Punk’d. Debate free speech vs responsibility or one religion against another, in the context of the cartoon, and the Rovian Neocons own you.
Understand that this was their desired result of their manipulation of you.
Your choice now is to decide which level of tactical nuke to use against Iran because that’s exactly where you’re headed.
and dancing on the edge of the roof.
Spending years knocking at beloved’s door,
then, realize you have been inside all the time.
Good point, great handle.
Thanks for the comment. Your participation is appreciated.
You know I agree with you.
wink,wink…nudge,nudge..say no more
😉
I’m seriously beginning to doubt the survival of our society. That part is new for me. I have always thought the spirit of compassion would win but now I have new doubts. Some form of our society will survive but it will be permanently scarred.
I feel as if we’re on the razor’s edge of testing that old American boast: “It can’t happen here.”
That damn razor is sharp.
You know, I don’t see any of us running away. That’s a good sign.
Razor’s edge my ASS.
We been CUT already!!!
AG
This rabbit hole is getting deeper. Hey, is that a cat up in that tree?
The only way to win is to unplug from the Matrix but that feels too much like giving up.
No, rumi.
It is NOT giving up.
It is climbing out of the rabbit hole.
AG
I foresee a barren wastelenad when the rabbithole is exited. The blog world is slowly morphing into the same MSM we wanted to avoid.
Do not go gently
Into that good night.
Resist, resist
Against the dying of the light.
VAYA!!!
AG
combined with weapons of mass ignorance
& weapons of mass repressed-&-denied-prejudice
create conditions favorable to dropping weapons of
mass destruction
~~~~~~~~~
We live in dangerous times, but hardly unique.
Back in the 90’s, some frineds in Berkeley started up a little poettry ‘zine, titled to reflect both that sense of despair I so often hear from you, Rumi, along with the recognition that life does go on: Dark Ages Clasp the Daisy Root
Oh yeah, I’m a lifelong fan of poetry, mine, his (especially) and others….timeless.
😀
.
Comment Ratings by MarekNYC
1) weapons of mass distraction [3.50], by Arcturus, Rated: 1
Posted on 02/08/2006 11:37:16 AM PST
Rated on 02/08/2006 11:48:50 AM PST
2) Nicely done ! [3.66], by Arcturus, Rated: 1
Posted on 02/07/2006 09:13:13 PM PST
Rated on 02/08/2006 11:46:48 AM PST
3) Duplicity [], by Oui, Rated: 1
Posted on 02/06/2006 12:29:22 PM PST
Rated on 02/06/2006 12:59:57 PM PST
4) Confirmation of 3 Extra Images @EuroTrib [], by Oui, Rated: 1
Posted on 02/06/2006 07:27:52 AM PST
Rated on 02/06/2006 12:31:57 PM PST
5) Inflammatory – a new insight [2.50], by Oui, Rated: 1
Posted on 02/06/2006 07:19:25 AM PST
Rated on 02/06/2006 12:31:57 PM PST
6) Powerful [2.50], by Oui, Rated: 1
Posted on 02/06/2006 01:46:05 AM PST
Rated on 02/06/2006 12:31:57 PM PST
“But I will not let myself be reduced to silence.”
▼ ▼ ▼ MY DIARY
Not quite accurate but close since I removed all but two of your troll ratings a half hour or so after placing them, long before you posted that comment. However, I retained two, and offered two for Arcturus in response to thoroughly gratuitous ones of both yours and his on my comments. You have since then offered another completely gratuitous troll rating of one of my comments – perhaps I should add more random ones to your comments.
The comment which you troll rated was:
Imagine that in a thread relating to Katrina and the media’s initial portrayal of blacks as violent, lawless looters and rapists, too stupid and lazy to leave New Orleans, someone posted quotes from a Protocols era ‘scientific’ article ‘proving’ that that’s just the way blacks are. Let us further imagine that this person had somehow grown up without realizing that such articles were not science but simple racism – e.g. typical of Americans and others not so long ago. That ignorance would be an explanation for his racism, it would not change the fact that he was a racist. Similarly, anyone who can read the Protocols and see them as a credible source, regardless of the level of their historical ignorance, is a racist. That does not mean that he isn’t otherwise a progressive, caring, intelligent, generally nice guy – just as there were plenty otherwise progressive, intelligent and nice racists back when crude racism was the default belief, but racists they were.
You saw that as an attack on yourself since I had originally posted it in a thread where I did attack you, even though that specific comment had nothing to do with you (I hope). I reposted it in a thread on the cartoon controversy which mentioned US criticism of the use of the Protocols in an Egyptian state TV show as a double standard. Perhaps to expand on it, the point was that the Protocols are unambiguously racist, while the cartoons on the other hand can both be seen as racist and as part of a long tradition dating from the Enlightenment of vicious and offensive anti-religious speech.
The other comment that was troll rated was one in which someone referenced an article by Christopher Bollyn on the cartoon controversy – my response was to point out that he is not a reliable source, to be more exact, what I said was:
And for other stunning revelations from the same source:
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=769
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=3170
http://www.rense.com/general68/thetrialofholocaust.htm
Uhhh…rumi?
I suppose it depends on how you define the word “society”, but…
A very good case could be made that our society has already been destroyed.
That is…the “society” that entered into W.W. II and gathered itself together to win that war.
The society…the SAME society…that 25 and 20 years later faced down the segregationists in the south by the use of federal force. That faced down Joe McCarthy. If Joe McCarthy were alive today and a Senatorial level politician…he would be a mainstream Republican. Mainstream like a motherfucker. Bet on it.
That society has been assassinated.
The real future leaders of that society were one and all murdered over a period of several years…JFK, RFK, MLK Jr., and yes, Malcolm X too.
The culture that FED that society…the amazingly multiracial and multi-culturally ROOTED culture that produced the “America” of humor and fire, the “America” that produced the jazz and blues tradition and the country/bluegrass tradition and large parts of the Afro/Cuban/Puerto Rican/Caribbean tradition and the Broadway/Pop tradition (They don’t call ’em “standards” for nothing, y’know.), the living writing/journalistic traditions and the film and humor traditions…that culture has been dumbed down and corporatized until its “stars” are creatures like Britney Spears instead of Frank Sinatra (Sinatra COULD NOT sing a wrong note. Britney cannot even WALK, let alone chew gum.), Kenny G instead of Duke Ellington.
The system that PROPAGATED that culture…the media…has been taken over by the Corporate Machine.
The educational system…sorry. That has become an ongoing joke. A multiple choice quiz with no correct answers instead of an essay on the philosophy of the evolution of mankind. (Philosophy…the love of knowledge. Philsophistry is more like it.)
Aside from a few stubborn and increasingly isolated holdouts, the sole representative area that remains of that culture exists here on the web. That’s it, bro’…and if the arc of the career of dKos is any indication, THAT little pond of free water is rapidly being encroached upon by the growing ice of this new system as well.
Short of a total economic collapse most likely brought about by international pressure (economic AND military) and/or some sort of environmental disaster…or a truly miraculous rebound of the human spirit (It has happened before in history, that one…against ALL odds)…this scene is over.
A walking corpse.
A cultural and social zombie, an unthinking, unfeeling, machine-driven golem clomp clomp clomping right into the teeth of a massive, world-wide resistance that is determined to take it down.
And I MEAN “worldwide”.
Europe, too.
Watch.
People like you…and me and all the other good hearted folks that are posting all over the web and trying to work the Democratic Party into some semblance of real opposition or at least do SOME objective good in the world…we are the resistance fighters in this Information War.
And all I can say to us all is…
VAYA!!!
It is a good day to try.
VAYA!!!
Have fun…
AG
Maybe I should substitute herd for society from now on?
Baaaaaaaaahhhhh….
Bumhug!!!
AG
P.S. I have posted these responses asa diary under the title VAYA!!! Today is a good day to try. VAYA!!!
Drop by.
Might get interesting if enough people have something to say.
Same here.
It’s never near as easy to unpunk someone.
Hey Rumi,
Got to disagree they are ROVIAN neo – cons. They are Straussian Neo Cons. Leo Strauss was a colleague and protege of Carl Schmitt who made Hitler a dictator and supervised the re-writing of German Law to conform to Nazism.
It so very much galls me that Rove is even being paid with our tax dollars. He is such a disgusting slime ball, I have extreme difficulty accepting him as a homo sapien. His ONLY talents are BULLYING and extreme character assassination. For God’s sake he’s a college drop out, earning a 6 figure salary on our money.
Not sure what “punk’d” means, but we sure as hell have been rolled over on by these creeps, and I mean ALL of them.
No argument from me on the correction but have you seen this?
Rove Threatens Senate Judiciary Committee Republicans
Yes, I did-not surprised. Just unsure if they have gotten so certain of staying in power they do not mind the crime of extortion becoming public, or they are so desperate, they are forgetting to cover their tracks.
It may be that the Dems and the public have shown them that there aren’t any consequences to their actions. The bully gets a new kid’s lunch money every day, the outrage grows with threats and nothing ever changes. Bullies get bolder until someone finally whups them.
“cover their tracks?” No need to. We’re all distracted and drinking flouridated water.
The BIG news of the day: Quietly, Delay has been given Duke Cunningham’s former seat on the Appropriations Committee. Delay also got to claim a seat on the subcommittee overseeing the Justice Department that’s currently investigating the Jack Abramoff scandal.
Now help me out a tad. Delay, under indictment for money laundering takes over from the ‘Duke’ (Cunningham) who copped a plea to $2.4 million bribery. And isn’t this the same Delay dude that’s linked to Abramoff? Thought my memory was still good.
wahaaaah, the foxes are still in charge of the chickens.
(via abcnews):
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=1595524
did you say we’ve been punked?
It just goes from bad to worse. Jack Cafferty on CNN verbally slapped Wolf around with the new GOP Bohner. Evidently there’s a conflict of interest in renting a basement apt from a lobbyist…Jack asks, are these guys that arrogant or that stupid?
Crools and Liars via buzzflash.comCNN’s Cafferty on John Boehner: These guys are either arrogant or stupid and neither of those is a good thing if you’re going to be the House majority leader–am I missing something here? Where’s the reform part? I wonder how long this guy is going to last. 2/9
Wolf: You did hear Ed Henry say that it is a basement apartment which is not necessarily all that desirable—
Cafferty: Yea…and pigs fly upside down and the moon is made of green cheese and there’s no quid pro quo from a lobbyist who is also your landlord? Do I look like I just fell out of the back of a vegetable truck to you?
Rock on, old man Jack, rock on.
Bohner also uninvites the loyal Frank Luntz, famous pollster from some function…no good link yet.
The newest GOP Boner is a real ….ah, you can fill in however you want.
Yea. Thanks I read that.
BUT imho, the biggest news of the day is reported in The Financial Times of London. I posted just now at another dairy on topic.
“Bush faces Republican revolt over spying”
Specter has announced he’s drafting legislation that’ll require the administration to get a ruling from the FISA court on the legality of warrantless spying.
full article here
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/c879f464-98fe-11da-aa99-0000779e2340.html
That would be greeat if I felt like I could trust Specter after the first day of the wiretap hearing. Do you think he had a change of heart? Could this be something that has to be approved on the House side Judicial Oversight Committee (if that’s the right one I named) where DeLay just landed?
Such a move raises lots of questions, since it would take it out of the public domain to a “secret court”
Will we be told the outcome? I doubt.
Why does Specter have the need for a court, any court to rule on determination, whether what the preznit did is legal? They wrote the law. It’s so clear even for a toddler.
Imho, Specter is avoiding what is building to impeachment hearings.
Has this already been brought up?
White House to give House committee information on spy program
WASHINGTON – The White House reversed course Wednesday and agreed to provide the House Intelligence Committee with some information about its secret program to intercept U.S.-foreign communications without court approval.
The decision came as Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa., the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, began drafting legislation that would require a special federal court that ordinarily grants warrants for such eavesdropping to determine whether the program is constitutional.
Wednesday’s developments illustrated the growing bipartisan pressure from Congress on the Bush administration to address the civil liberties questions raised by its efforts to spy on U.S. residents suspected of terrorist contacts. The White House decision appeared designed to forestall calls for a more aggressive congressional investigation.
The House Intelligence Committee received a closed-door briefing on the program from Attorney General Alberto Gonzales and Gen. Michael Hayden, the deputy director of national intelligence. A similar briefing is scheduled on Thursday for the Senate Intelligence Committee.
Is this one of the committees that DeLay was named to or are they connected in any way?
Specter’s move is an attempt to avoid meeting the I word – impeachment hearings, shut down the publicity and revolt of his colleagues. Last night, I posted comments of article of the revolt in (FT) Financial Times.
Today Wapo can’t be too helpful for Specter’s attempts to have the FISA court make a determination. Of import, two of the FISA court judges have ruled they do not have the authority to rule on the president’s power to order the eavesdropping. Wrong court Specter. Loud and clear.
“Secret Court’s Judges Were Warned About NSA Spy Data- Program May have led Improperly to Warrants”
excerpt
Not everyday we get to say Wapo stepped up to the plate.
I’m saying, Specter has his answer. Let’s proceed to impeach.
Ooops. the link to Wapo here
“Sectret Court’s Judges Were Warned About NSA Spy Data”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/08/AR2006020802511.html
Good nite Gonzo
How can this be possible? I believe in innocent until proven guilty but if someone is under indictment on a drug charge I don’t think they’d be allowed to work in a pharmacy.
different rules for them. Scrub that.
They’re above the law.
Punk’d is a television program that actor Ashton Kutcher developed as a way to play practical jokes on his famous friends. It’s always an elaborate, expensive scheme and always effective. It usually starts with unrelated footage of the friend claiming at some point that he/she is unpunk’able. They always fall for whatever scheme he concocts.
Thanks. I pulled my cable out in June last year. Can’t stand 99% of the so called news shows. Programming is all blood, gore, cops decimating bad guys or rah rah military. Books and internet are my infotainment now.
Shall we let ourselves be punked by the Rethugs?
You have just summarized the whole thing.
I cannot be a master or I’ll lose my ability to discern the punk’ngs when they come our way.
That show is hilarious and says a lot about human nature. Every victim has the mindset that they are too intelligent to be that gullible. He then plays on the basic disbelief that anything so realistic and elaborate could possibly be a staged event. It’s downhill for them from that point.
Condi speaks:
Thanks for that link. I saw one here somewhere in which Egypt admitted to fanning the flames.
As for Condi and her remark, if I innocently use the pot and kettle analogy will I be crucified?
I forgot to include the next paragraph, which is even more telling:
:She did not offer specifics during a brief State Department news conference with Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni. The United States accuses Iran and Syria of funding terrorism and has tried to unite world opinion against both Middle Eastern nations.
I’m missing something here. I see plenty of problems but there should be a loud click when something goes into place. What specific am I missing?
Can we bomb them yet….can we bomb them yet…<snark>
…why do so many people fall for it?
Don’t make me pull this country over to straighten you kids out!…cause I will!…Don’t test me…
</dad=mode>
The really scary part of this is the realization of so much deep seated prejudice of one kind or another.
Because we have this dualistic mode going on. If one side is wrong, the other side MUST be right.
What we have here is a wild overreaction to a deliberate extremist provocation put together by TWO extremist groups with their own agendas… (It’s not a conspiracy, just a confluence of interests…)
And at the end of the day, nobody’s right; there are no good guys in this one. As with pretty much all Rovian foreign policy, it’s bad guy vs. bad guy.
And the neos are MASTERS at creating that sort of situation, because they know neither the average Islamist nor the average Statesider will think that far into it.
And the wingnuts win.
I agree and so far I have avoided the surrounding conversation as it focused on the cartoon, rights, responsibilities, stereotypes, prejudice…
It’s been 5-6 months since the first one was out. This rage from insult to blood in the streets is manufactured by forces behind the scenes. It didn’t start naturally as a reaction to the cartoon. It had to be fed, somehow, by illegitimate means until common insanity took over.
You nailed it with Rove. He’s a genius but never gets his own hands dirty. He’s a user and he knows how to choose people as tools.
He did the same thing with Newsweek.
My instinct tells me that covert interests that have been in place for a while were instructed to build the public protests by assets.
The building outrage at BushCo on an international level was tapped into for this but it exceeds the estimation of inexperienced, optimistic, neoconned intel analysts.
You ever try to put a bunch of accidently squeezed out toothpaste back into the tube?
My instinct tells me that covert interests that have been in place for a while were instructed to build the public protests by assets.
Ya, but I don’t think that the covert interests are limited to the neo-cons and the GOP, I think that the ‘centrist’ Democrats and those whose job it is to ineptly manipulate ‘liberals’ are in full agreement on this one. They want, I believe, the Crusaders ‘unity of spirit’ which occured after 9/11 and I’m quite certain that men Like Biden and Lieberman wish to see a continuation and exacerbation of the current conflict into Syria and Iran.
Soj was the first diary I read which speculated obout about the psy-ops possibilities of this and I was most interested to see Soj viciously attacked on DK by TNH thugs on the flimsiest of excuses a day or so later.
It was even worse than when someone mentions the possibility that Bev Harris might just have a point….
Oh yeah, you’re absolutely right on the nonpartisan world manipulation. That’s why several major blogs refuse to even consider the possibility. It’s bipartisan and international. It survives from one administration to another and draws power from the private sector as well.
This concept goes to the heart of many issues that are discussed based on flawed foundations of understanding, like the GWoT.
I commend soj on so much hard work on this and similar issues. So many others have one interest or another that calls for their compliance.
Let me clarify my previous comment. This would be an excellent time to open this discussion among more people.
I’m no expert on history but an element of the influence of Islamic extremism over the past 4 decades is due primarily to covert actions by a handfull of countries. These countries and their intel agencies have also incorporated private industry, lobbies, think tanks, etc. There are examples of the extremism in history but most of the current movement is a deliberate exploitation and manipulation of small groups of Islamic militants that were essentially acting as PMCs(mercenaries)
The reason I called it Rovian neocon is because of the concemtration of those forces over the past 20-30 years in exploiting it. The same people were doing it under Reagan that are doing it now. Rove is the current master technician of the public face and the neocons control the Islamic threat, but it is essentially bipartisan.
Punked? No, no, I’m far too sophisticated and wordly for that. Not me, no siree.
Hey, I missed this before. Someone rang my bell but nobody was at the door when I answered it.
First sensible post I’ve read on the topic, rumi. Thanks.
thanks.
I don’t know if we can change anything but each day like today is closer to another war if we don’t.
Has the disposition of US Americans to assume themselves at the epicenter of every issue now become so ingrained that even argument is considered optional?
I hope it’s not bad form for me to offer one? Here goes:
If your theory is true, how come that Irani and Syria allowed Scandinavian embassies to be attacked, even sacked, by the mobs their security forces have always kept under thumb?
Were they “punk’d” as well?
Give me a break.
I haven’t looked at that part as close as I can but a main theme to all of this is that there are interactive dynamics at work. I don’t see a completely scripted event but as events unfold it’s easy to consider some departments ordered to stand down for whatever reason they give them.
Try to explain how many preventative and investigative actions were blocked concerning 9/11 and chain of command orders.
??????????????????
Were they “punk’d” as well?
Give me a break.
Here’s a glance at the good friends in Syria
I don’t why you would imply that Syria wouldn’t cooperate with a request. It’s proven they do.
Syria may previously have helped the CIA torture suspects. This suggests that Syria allowed the torching of two Scandinavian embassies on US orders – where only luck ensured that embassy personell and at least one child of such weren’t harmed or killed – and presumably also instigated the sacking of the Danish consulate in Beirut. All this so that Rice can put the blame on… Syria.
That’s your argument?
And even if we grant this, how about Iran? You are aware that the Danish embassy has been besieged and attacked for two days, right? How do you explain that?
And what’s your evidence anyway?
Is your argument the defense of Syria’s concern for human life? I can’t see any proof of that.
Is my argument Syria’s complicity in doing the dirty work for our intel agency? The proof is there. What do they get in return? Has to be something.
Should we look at IMF, the World Bank, UN, Wolfowitz, Bolton,
Hey, maybe there really was special cargo on the rendition flights.
???????????????????
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don’t have any evidence either but I agree with Rumi to this extent:
I believe (without definitive proof) the following:
The cartoons were published in the ordinary way all editorial cartoons are published, and not for any other purposes or at any outside direction.
That initial reactions developed in the ordinary way.
That certain Muslims took it upon themselves to take these cartoons and add some more inflammatory ones and to disemminate these photos in the middle east.
That the Egyptian Press reprinted them (with the consent of the press overseers).
That officials of the Egyptian government began ramping up the rhetoric.
That after the Hajj disaster, the Saudis began a full court press onlaught on this issue.
That the issue was largely turned from a low level outrage into an international incident only after the Egyptians and Saudi governments took these actions.
That it spread quite naturally to Syria, Iran and many other Muslim countries.
That this was done by Saudi Arabia and Egypt for the specific purpose of causing this anti-European protest.
That the explanation for this is most likely a coordination psy-op campaign to help the U.S. get the maximum support from NATO and Europeans for tough actions against Iran in the Security Council.
I can’t prove this, and there are pieces of it that may be wrong, and other pieces that I am unaware of that might add to my point. But it’s my suspicion.
Beyond that, even if this is a psy-op it would not be possible if the preconditions did not exist to get people to go along with it.
So, we can still debate this as though it were a purely organic thing.
I just choose not to, because I think we are being played.
Thanks for the summary. I disagree with a few minor points but it doesn’t affect the ultimate outcome.
The result of uncontrollable violence can start with a wide variety of causes, like a forest fire. Sometimes it’s a controlled burn that gets caught by an unexpected wind.
When that forest fire rages beyond it’s original boundary, it’s fueled by anything combustible in it’s path. It takes on a life of it’s own and there’s little that can be done to control it.
I think the same thing happened with this outrage. It had to be manufactured in some ways, at first. It found enough fuel to let it grow out of control and is far more successful and brings new dangers with that psychological victory.
I think people possibly envision a set of instructions that are delivered when I suggest complicity. It doesn’t have to be anything more than a wink or a nod, a vote against UN sanctions, a loan approval for a few hundred billion or any of a number of ways.
well we see it differently.
I think that the origin of the cartoons was basic and obvious. An author couldn’t find anyone to illustrate her book, so a paper made an issue over the taboo of representing the prophet.
This caused predictable protest.
To understand the situation, I think you have to understand the relationship between the intelligence agencies of the U.S. and Egypt and Saudi Arabia.
They are in some ways all part of one intelligence agency, although we would like to have more control than we have. But we trained those guys and we give them millions of dollars and lots of equipment.
I think this is more likely an example of using a preexisting grievance to provoke a set piece outrage. It serves everyone’s interests in their own ways.
Being able to blame it all on Iran and Syria because they are also letting these protests go on just adds to the beauty of it.
I don’t mind disagreeing and a difference of opinion can increase respect so that’s not a problem.
The ways in which understanding can be shared on these subjects is missed on a basic level. When the conversation moves to a phrase like this To understand the situation, I think you have to understand the relationship between the intelligence agencies of the U.S. and Egypt and Saudi Arabia. it can sound as though I have no understanding of the situation and what you’re about to tell me is absolutely true. I don’t mind a subtle insult, but it’s usually followed by less than the truth, as far as certain subjects go. There is enough information from a variety of sources to make me doubt any official version. When this happens and I notice contradictions between the information presented and other versions that make more sense, I get the feeling I’m being manipulated to believe an altered version.
It’s happened so many times that I doubt just about everything that is presented as the way to understand it when I know there’s more to it than what I’m suggested to understand.
I can consider the one big agency theory but it extends to other countries too. I think an understanding includes the fact our good guys have done some horrible shit in the past and we need to realize this without pursuing accountability as long as we identify mistakes that were made.
This large group also has a wide variety of subgroups, with shifting alliances, that transcend administrations and pursue independent agreements that are not always in the best interest of the countries they represent. I think many of us are tired of being told bullshit from people who are gouging our pockets and at times betraying our national interest for somebody else’s agenda…not you but the intel profession in general. Most liberals understand the need for those agencies but we have been given more reason to distrust them and that is by their actions.
The public is completely disrespected by that branch of our govt and the games they play our paid for with our family’s lives.
There are too many power struggles and absolutely no oversight. I think the discussion should include these factors, but it usually doesn’t. We can’t make any realistic progress until the foundation of the discussion is solid.
The current free speech, religion, hatred, prejudice debate is a great one but it has nothing to do with that cartoon. What a tragic waste of energy that could be put to a positive change.
Some folks wanted a war on Islam, and by God, they’ve made sure our grandkids will have it too.
I don’t mean to be insulting.
I sense that you mistrust pretty much all news sources. I do too.
Sometimes you can detect misinformation and sometimes you cannot.
I have studied a lot of literature on our spy agencies and I have, I think, a keen eye for spotting psy-op campaigns that appear in newspapers.
But, the problem with good spycraft is that it always provides deniability by design.
During the Afghan-Soviet war the CIA provided the muj with an all Soviet made arsenal. They made the weapons in Egypt and perhaps China as well. Even though the KGB was well aware of what we were doing we still refused to give aid that could be traced back to us. That is how far the CIA goes to make sure an operation cannot be traced back.
So, it is easy to detect a psy-op campaign in the papers but it is impossible to prove it. And sometimes you might just be wrong.
The frustrating thing is that you can’t engage politically by speculating without proof. This is what makes conspiracy such a taboo at Daily Kos. But it’s true. You can’t run for Senate and at the same time spout unsupported theories about 9/11 or Diebold.
When I suspect a psy-op I try to determine the mechanism by which it is being disseminated. In the case of the Iraq War I identified Bill Safire as a spoke in a wheel that centered in the office of the vice-president and involved the Daily Telegraph of the UK, the INC, and several papers in Australia. But there is not much I can do with such information.
In the current case, I can see incitement originating from Egypt and spreading to Saudi Arabia. This makes me suspicious because of the confluence of interests between those countries and the United States in preventing Iran from getting a nuclear device. And also, those governments would be willing to go along with an operation designed to arouse Europeans against Islam, and they know very well how to do this.
So, its just a theory. But it is an informed theory. I’m not about to front-page it. But I still think your instinct is right. We are getting punk’d.
The basics of it is that the intel agencies are above the law, can run a shadow government and there’s not a damn thing we can do about whatever it is they do in our name. The American people get no accountability and have no recourse. It’s a game the politicians play and it’s all based on deception. Everyone in a position of power is part of this deception by playing along. The community leaders, bloggers, understand this and have also been castrated by these departments.
Tell me again why I should even bother to vote?
Because one group is bstter than the other.
But that’s the problem with operation by deception with no accountability. There’s no way to prove that one group is better.
You know what really sucks is that some cooperative effort between the Democrats and other voters that was starting to form took a major hit with the volatile debate.
that could be put to a positive change.”-rumi
When I first discovered dKos, I thought, hmm, what an amazing tool this will be for “our” side. And I saw the whole blogosphere as the last bullwark against the loss of our democracy. And I wondered, how will the opposition attack to diminish this wild power.
Then the bickering, then piefights, and more bickering at dKos. So I move to BT, and now more polemics, as we immerse ourselves in the art of controversy.
And now, I know, that whether we do this unto ourselves by our own hand, or whether many of these bitter controversies are instigated by agent provocateurs, the result is the same,“What a tragic waste of energy that could be put to a positive change.”
See my sig links for what we should be focused on.
Hey, we hit on all 14 points. We have a winner! Or a loser.
You summed up my disillusionment well.
My head hurts and the wall it’s been banging against is pissed off.
I think your version, and especially your acknowledgment of its speculative nature, are vastly preferable to the far-fetched theory that it’s all been a neo-con ploy from the very beginning. However, while you are undoubtedly right that this has been manipulated by governments for their own ends, the postulated US psy-op does not strike me as the most parsimonious explanation.
Instead, it seems to me that Occam’s Razor favors the explanation put forward by Sandmonkey, the Egyptian blogger who revealed that the Egyptian newspaper published the cartoons in October and drew no reaction at all. Mubarak, pressured by the soaring popularity of the Brotherhood and needing to divert attention from massively unpopular welfare cuts, took advantage of the cartoons to funnel popular anger elsewhere. The House of Saud may also have found some limited use for the story, as proposed by Soj, though the protests in SA have really been quite muted.
But as I see it, the most important dynamic here is a sort of competition between oppositional Islamist movements like the Brotherhood and the various regimes. After the Danish radical imams toured the Middle East with false pictures et cetera in December, Mubarak & co couldn’t afford to stay passive. They had to been seen confronting the West.
In my opinion, only this can explain why al-Assad let the Scandinavian embassies be sacked. Additionally, he may have wanted to give the West a taste of what will replace him if his regime is toppled.
By contrast, it would hardly make sense for him to aid a US ploy to impose sanctions on Iran, which would further destabilize the region and energize his enemies. I’m not even sure if the Bushies really want such sanctions, which would inflate oil prices and, if Iran were to retaliate by blocking the Hormuz Straits, send them to high heavens.
Furthermore, the Bushies desperately need stability in the Middle East. They are clinging on with their teeth in Iraq and can’t afford to inflame the Arab Street in a way that strengthens the militants.
But even assuming that Washington really desires such sanctions, and is prepared to use such means, it’s still Russia’s and China’s votes that decide in the SC. These will base their calculations on quite different factors than exasperation with Tehran. Putin must weigh the investment interests of his Russian backers against the benefits that Russia could reap from helping the West. China is mostly concerned with securing a steady flow of oil at affordable cost.
The final nail in the coffin of the theory is, as I’ve said already, that Tehran hasn’t curbed the protests. This is a regime not under pressure from an Islamist opposition, rather the Islamists are running the shop. It didn’t need to allow days of vicious attacks on the Danish embassy, but it did. And it’s implausible that the regime, with its excellence intelligence service and smart policy-makers, would not know it if this popular outrage is detrimental to its strategic interests. After all, if bloggers can anticipate such an outcome, Tehran will too.
That’s how I see it, anyway.
PS. Arminius, are you there? Now you can give my the 2.
I agree with your analysis. And I still think that that Egypt and Saudi Arabia did this for more than just domestic purposes.
The US probably does not want sanctions, but bombs. But it appears the US is comittted to testing the security council’s resolve.
John Lydon aka Rotten said it best:
“ever feel you’ve been cheated” or in this case, manipulated?
Wonder if this is the derivation of the term punk’d?
This is what answers.com has for it
The program’s title, probably unintentionally, is an adulterated reference to prisoner argo for anal rape, specifically as used for internal hierarchal dominance.
You CANNOT be ‘Punk’d By The Rovian Neocons” if you are on NEWSTRIKE!!!
It simply cannot be done.
You write:
Understand that this was their desired result of their manipulation of you.
No interest or even attention paid to their foolishness…no manipulation.
Simple, eh?
Duh.
Spread that idea far enough…and it wouldn’t have to be THAT far, really, in my opinion…and there they are, impotently jerking THEMSELVES off instead of fucking us all from the area closest to the right rear quarter of our respective cultural anatomies.
NEWSTRIKE!!!
I will keep plugging this idea until SOMEONE actually understands it.
What if they gave a newscast…say a newscast about the imminent demise of the world as we know it due to (pick one) bird flu, global warming, terrorists, the possession of WMDs by (shudder) MUSLIMS, etc…and no one showed up?
If they cast war bait into an uninhabited pond?
If we all just yawned and said…”What was that? Did you hear something?” and then went on about our proper respective businesses?
They would wither and fade away, these neocon punks, just like the shadows of reality that they truly are. We are a herd of sheeple being stampeded in the desired directions by a group of all hat, no cattle cowboys shooting cap guns into the air from out the windows of their air conditioned, Cadillac Denali, fake motherfucking SUVs.
IGNORE THEM!!!
And simply go about your business.
They are ghosts.
Ghosts of the past.
Walk through them.
Into the future.
They have no substance whatsoever.
They are not only ghosts…they are HOLOGRAMS of ghosts.
Walk on through them and survive, or…allow yourselves to be stampeded into another, bigger, even MORE dangerous war.
These ghosts FEED on our horror, on our opposition.
Just tell them to get the fuck out of your face and go haunt some other empty house, and they will POOF!!!
Disappear.
NEWSTRIKE 2006!!!
A time whose idea has come.
BOO!!!
Get outta my face, Karl, you fat fucking little ghost you.
BOO!!!
Go away, kid. Ya BOTHER me.
Later…
AG
I understand your point but and this applies to all information distribution.
The only way to pursue an effective Newstrike is to drop out of the blogs too and that’s the next step.
If they continue to be compromised the way dKos was…yes.
But NOT “drop out”.
Start your own.
I did the same thing two years ago on a professional, very finely focused musical level when a forum/blog sort of site turned into a clomping, crypto-right wing mess.
Started my own forum…free as can be…and it worked.
It lives. It is THRIVING.
Free as can be.
Stay awake.
Take no shit.
And start your OWN resistance if you must.
VAYA!!!
Today is always a good day to try.
VAYA!!!
AG
Another blog is not the answer. It just builds a bigger matrix. If we can’t be an effective force for change as a group then there is less chance of success as an individual.
Another blog is just another NSA database entry to cross-reference for future control and prosecution. They follow along and it’s all good fun but I’m tired of accomplishing their goals for them.
If we could make a positive change then the hassles of big brother might be worth it. As it’s been, it’s all just an electronic illusion of hope.
For the watchers…byte me
Yeah.
Well…
You have a point, rumi.
But…have you another (practicable) idea?
Short of NEWSTRIKE!!!…I’m fresh out.
AG
All the great ideas from millions of us have gone unheard so far. We’re all just ignoring the same good ideas every day now. The controllers of the political=blog world have won. It’s so similar to the frustration encountered by the smug smiles of the GOP’rs when they gain a victory to restrict civil liberties. Cheering the security and control with no awareness that it will be used on them, to their outrage, sometime in the future.
build community locally.
Diaried the theory. “Barn-raising — a noble and needed Tradition.”
That’s the solution, because it’s the inverse of what the Neocons are trying to pull off. Just the same is if the garden’s dry, you add water.
the cartoons, resulting in a tidal wave of fury and debate, was probably planted. Nevertheless, it is important to encourage each other to keep a cool head in reaction to this issue, even if it involves discussing and debating issues of free speech.
I think a positive outcome has emerged on this site, in that several people are considering angles and perspectives they didn’t consider before.
If we can learn from this…we’ve out-punked all of them.
This might start it all off again, but I was just floored seeing people express “hatred” of all religions and religious communities in the name of “rationality” (hint, when you’re hating, it’s NOT rational or objective).
Among other danged things. It’s about poking someone in a place that’s sensitive to them — do you regularly hit people over the head in the name of your freedom to do what you want? If not, don’t do it with words, etiher.
Thanks for your excellent brief summary.
“Come, come whoever you are.
Wanderer, worshipper,
Lover of Leaving.
Come, yet again, Come.
Come.
Ours is not a Caravan of Despair.”