We’ve seen the awesome impact our shared voices have had here at BooTrib. We’ve heard so many men and women who have read them tell us how much they were affected. There was a plea for for us to spread these stories beyond the safety of this pond. SallyCat did, and maybe others I don’t know of. I wasn’t willing to do that, and I didn’t want to even examine why, when it came to posting at the orange place.
I wanted to keep believing the reason I left there was a totally rational decision to accept the invitation to leave, and choose to put my energies elsewhere where they were welcome. But this whole outpuring here has forced me to reality test this.
The newly discovered truth? While I considered posting my diary over there, I was afraid to now. Because what I did not want to admit to myself about the pie wars, was that they triggered off old flashback echos I honestly thought were long gone. I did NOT want to admit that after 30 plus years of healing work, I was still vulnerable to this. But when that viscious period of "piling on" hit, there they were, once again, working thier partcularly subtle and ugly magic of silencing me one more more time. Making me afraid long after I thought this stuff ever could again.
This is NOT about dkos itself. It’s about the kind of thing that happened there, and happens all over the place for women and always has.
It’s about the "piling on" of power, in order to silence and control. It’s about what happens when we are met with deeamining, disrespectful. dismissive, insulting, sexist attack when we try to speak up, all designed to to show us our place and keep us IN it. Just like rape, it’s not really about sex, it’s about power and control.
I simply didn’t want to feel, or deal with the flashback echos again, should I post there, or anywhere else I didn’t KNOW it was safe, and get more of the same. Dammit. Admitting fear is the hardest of all things for me to do.
When I allow fear to form my decisions behind my back, I give away a piece of my power. I vowed long ago to never do that again. I will not do it now. I will be writing a rape diary over this weekend, intended for the orange place, post it there on Sunday or Monday, and crosspost to here.
I invite all of you who feel ready to do the same, to join me. But only if you feel truly ready. That time time of readiness is different for each of us. Stepping out too far, before that time comes is not a good idea, and can make it all worse instead of better. And for those who do feel ready, please make sure your face to face support system is in good shape before you do. Also, if you post your stories anywhere iffy, please let us know, so we can come and support you.
I feel the pond people behind me and behind all of us, and I just need to roll on over there and retrieve that small piece of my power I left behind.
Special thanks to Duke, and to all you women and men who challlenged me to figure this one out so I could fix it.
I will recommend it over there and participate in the discussion.
I think the reason some of us left during the pie wars is because when all that shit happened and people started getting abusive and piling on and voicing sexist, misogynistic opinions, we do what we have had to do it real life. We remove ourselves from the situation instead of fighting that tiresome battle anymore.
Agree, and that also factored in to my leaving as well. Just how many years can one fight the same old shit and still keep going? The older I get, the more precious my quality of life is.
I’ll break my personal big orange rule and come on over to support all of you when/if you post there.
Thank you heartily, CabinGirl!
Me, too.
None of us want to go onto the battlefield, but will support you wherever its needed. So please post a link, ’cause we need to know when.
Don’t be afraid – just put it up and scurry away to the comfort of the frog family, you don’t really need to read any responses, say that you might not be back. I think these diaries would be helpful for so many people. Let them have their own consciousness raising.
The truth will set everybody free if they’ll only see it.
Thanks, Alice..good advice I may take if I need to.
Of course I’ll support you wherever you choose to post.
Judging by the response SallyCat got, I’m hopeful that there is a core group anywhere, at any site, that chooses to embrace rather than cast out.
I know thats usually the case, Super, but I’m still glad you’re on my side..:)
There is a huge problem at DKos. I am interested in seeing that others have had difficulties there.
Essentially, if you go against the prevailing Liberal Mafia there, you get drummed out by ratings.
It does not matter about the issue. It does matter that “liberals” who are “open-minded” are simply neither.
These lefty blogospheres become huge echo chambers when the power of anonymous ratings is used to censor opinion.
And that happens a LOT at DKos.
Not much can be done about it as far aas I can see. The owners of these blogs call the shots at to what they want them to be, and who they care to invite and disinvite. And rightly so, since they put up the money and time and effort it takes to build them. It’s up to use to chose among them. This isn’t the only reason I no longer hang out there or some other blogs: overall it’s just not a very good match for me because I need to be around genuine lberals in order to stay energized.
I have a different problem. I am a democrat who leans liberal in most things, and who is interested in winning elections while preserving liberal values. This does not mean, and in fact means that I am not, a slave to liberal orthodoxy. While not being a DINO, I am skeptical about many ideas, and this has led to me being auto-banned several times.
If you can’t have an intelligent conversation and express skepticism on a liberal board, it is not a liberal board.
You nailed it.
But the problem over there becomes infinitely worse once you have identified yourself as a female. (The default assumption is of course, that behind every anonymous screenname sits a 401K liberal white male).
As soon as you have identified yourself as a woman, the whole arsenal of “weapons” they pull out is magnified infinitely.
I question the benefit of posting over there on these issues because these things are so ingrained, so deep, so much a part of the very fabric of frat-boy reality/identity….I dunno.
My advice is, if you are going to do this, then EN MASSE (many diaries on the same day) and with committed support from over here and elsewhere.
Also, psychologically, prepare for a (metaphorical) “gang-bang”–I’ve since come to call the phenomenon “blog-bang”–because that’s what it is: it is the linguistic equivalent of a bunch of men (and some token women) sitting around watching a bunch of other men rape the shit out of a woman on a pool table.
If you women are going to post over there, I suggest seeing it as a “case study”- distance yourselves from your own story and see it as an “experiment”–if you don’t, I’m afraid your souls and spirits will come out of there looking like a scene from Abu Ghraib.
I will NOT post over there. What I can commit to is recommending diaries.
I’m not a woman, but understand entirely what you mean.
I actually, in DKos metric, am a pretty conservative Democrat. I am very skeptical about the ELECTORAL value of certain positions. This is what got me into difficulty there.
There is a mafia of another sort as well – not just men, but specific types of men – who use ratings to get rid of people with the wrong ideas.
It means that, as the electoral period goes on, many of these liberal “lefty” sites will become very divorced from reality, as they have self-limited the persons who are allowed to post.
It also means that self-delusion is going to become more and more of a problem.
The echo chamber is not just a river in Egypt
you are right: there are two types of ‘bangers’ over there: the garden variety ‘normal’ patriarchal male type, and the ones who are ‘plants’ trying to keep the whole gaggle of geeks ‘on message.’
Sad, but so true. Be it physical or verbal, the attacks will come, the frat-boy weapons will be used. I’ve lived with it 57 years, and I just won’t subject myself to it any more.
I will, however, happily recommend and support with comments. I will also give zeros to frat-boys who get out of line 😉
In danger of attack at DKos for coming out as a sexual abuse survivor…. Afraid to post on DKos… What is DKos like? What community does DKos represent?
This is really wierd. It’s reminding me of the novel “LORD OF THE FLIES” by William Golding.
I’m at DKos often, and you, too. What do you think about frat-boys being rude?
DKos is not liberal. The in-crowd has improved its manners since the Pie Wars and the banning/purge… but still there is an overwhelming attitude of authoritarianism amongst some “power-players” that also makes DKos not Democratic, either. There are frat boys and frat girls, too…. “Lord Of The Flies” is a good example of “frat boys” gone wild, violent and bestial……
This diary, scribe, is excellent. And it makes one wonder where is the connection between the Pie Wars and the fear of posting a pro-feminist diary or opinion… hmmm……
Frat boys are weak kneed wankers clinging desperately to each other and so insecure they have to dress alike …….give me that lone guy standing out there with that boyish grin on his face any day…….now there’s a Man! I eat frat boys for breaksfast!
up for breakfast! I’m cracking myself up!
I have to offer a defense here for a certain frat boy who is a highly regarded member of the pond.
Ejmw exhibits the finest traits of a true gentleman and is doing more than his part to rescue the title of fratboy from disrepute :o)
in his beanie. When that beanie was on the floor the other day, I picked it up and ate it…..I thought it had violently been separated from the head of the frat boy from brunch. Now I know it was probably his. Somebody get that boy a beanie! Suddenly I feel peckish!
Oh Shit Tracy!!
You’re a one of a kind trip :o)
Oh wow. That was a definite laugh out loud moment right there…whew thanks for that one. 😉
While I support your efforts and your stories, I don’t belong to DailyKos and have no intention of signing up. There’s no way to sign up without it being taken as an indication that I support its leadership (and the misogyny shown by them and many of the members), its Democratic-centric worldview, and its overinflated notion of its importance; that is something that I will not do.
So to any of you who do post there, I will be with you in spirit but I won’t being showing up in the comments.
You could also sign up and never post–just exercise “voting privileges”–i.e. recommend diaries. 😉
Thank you for pointing out the obvious: rampant, rampant, flagrant, offensive misogyny–which goes unchecked, unchallenged, and in fact unnoticed by most posters.
I’m sure it indicates a certain ethical prissiness on my part but I won’t join organizations that I can’t support because the act of joining can only be seen as a statement of support. It’s why, for example, I have always been an independent.
If there was a way to join that said “I’m joining your fucking obnoxious, swaggering despite being generally impotent website for purely subversive reasons”, I might go ahead and do it.
I hear you Andi.
I’ve just always got that Vine DeLoria quote running through my head, you know the one about “letting the bastards know you been there.”
Okay, well if you’re doing it to support people who are posting anti-misogynistic content that goes against the prevailing attitude there, is that subversive enough to convince you?
No, because I still just become part of the statistics that are used to promote the place. And I don’t think the place is worth the effort.
But nice try. 😉
darlin…..I stopped contributing over there for a long time for the same reason. What we nurture grows and I didn’t see any reason for that place to grow….it was the antithesis of the party that I need…….not even the party that I want…..I’m talking the party that I need to live! I have mixed feelings about amping the traffic over there for any reason whatsoever. Sometimes I just wish the snake would finish swallowing its tail and POOF – Goodbye! I think for this issue though I’ll do it. I tend to be poison for assholes…..they dry up and blow away and get terrible depressions and go away.
I completely respect and support your stand on this, AndIf and thank you for standing by in spirit which in it’s own way is every bit as powerful as words,
Put the diary out there and I will be there with you the entire time they are up. I’m out for a couple of hours at lunch time on Sunday – otherwise I’m home all weekend. Email me if you want to let me know when it will go up…but I’ll also keep watching.
Support – there are a few that can create problems – but rarely have I seen someone attacked when their personal stories are told. Sometimes they just have a visceral response. A lot of commenters will simply attack people like MSOC because she is MSOC.
Speaking of support: last night I went to a meet-up of SF Kossacks and My Left Wing folks…including MSOC. Some of them I’ve known in RL for over a year. The hugs and support that came from this small group (about 15) was amazing. So remember the support in the blogosphere is attached to real people that care…not just a UID.
Thanks Sally..and so glad you were so supported in the group last night too.
I have to go out now, will check back in with you all later on.
I would’ve been there in a heartbeat — okay, a little longer than that, CalTrain isn’t that fast!
Scribe, I’ll be there to recommend and to add my own puny words of encouragement. All that’s gone on has caused me a lot of soul searching — especially regarding my own self-image, how I basically used my weight as a shield against unwelcome attractions…and how I was used by boys who I thought cared about me but didn’t want to be seen with me in public, because I thought that’s all I could expect as a fat chick. So even those of us who were not raped are somehow tarnished, broken — maybe we’ve been emotionally or spiritually raped, which can be just as hard to heal.
Maybe all this coming out will help me deal with the issue at last…and might be the step needed to finally win the Battle of the Bulge before I hit 50…
Cali Scribe – you and I need to talk. If you haven’t already, I hope you’ll check out my diary, “It Didn’t Happen to Me – A Different Kind of Story,” (sorry I don’t have time to do the link). Sounds like we have a lot of experiences in common and I have been having exactly the same kinds of reations lately that you’ve described here. Thanks!!!
Another thought–and I’m just going to throw this in here because it is impossible to sift through the many threads on this subject and find where it fits best.
I used to write a lot about rape. I quit doing that many years ago. The reason: what it ultimately boils down to for me is that rape is NOT a women’s issue–it’s a men’s issue.
Here a couple of quotes that may or may not be of use, from the article “Getting It: A Comment on What the Dominant Male is and Is not Getting” (Lesbian Contradiction: A Journal of Irreverent Feminism, Summer 1993, pp. 12 -14).
This article was addressed to precisely the “target group” you are dealing with here (i.e. ‘liberal’ men):
So there it is: my take on it is that rape is MEN’S problem, not mine. If I thought any efforts on my part would have a shot at eliminating the problem, I’d be there. But it’s a problem only men can fix.
Refreshing to see the men of Bootrib taking on this issue–truly, men are the only ones who can stop it.
Hey scribe, I will be there and have your back as long as I’m online when you post.
I wanted to ask you about the fear thing because I know what you mean about losing power to let it rule you. I think it’s really brave of you to do this and I guess I read you as saying that you need to do it to prove they can’t intimidate you into silence. Which is cool as hell. I just wanted to ask, do you think it is okay sometimes to just avoid the situations where we know we will be piled on and attacked? Or do you think that always constitutes giving into fear, and loss of power, and bad things for us? Like all things I suppose it depends on context, but managing my fear is something I am working on so I am interested in hearing more about your perspective on this because it sounds like we are coming from a similar place.
I sure do think it’s ok to choose to stay away form situations where we know we’re likely to be targeted. I need to post one more time there to settle this one piece for myself, but I have no intention of participating there further and haven’t been for a long time. The attitudes toward women and the political stand they take are not my cup of tea, period. That’s not avoidance, that part is a clear informed choice.
How many active women members are there at BooTrib? What percentage of these women have been victims of rape/incest/sexual abuse?
The stories over the last several days are shocking in their content, and in the NUMBERS. It reminds me of Hannah Arendt… “The Banality of Evil.”
Will somebody do a diary with a poll to find out what percentage of female readership has shared this horrific experience?
And to be fair, what percentage of male readership has experienced the same?
Wouldn’t the more pertinent question be what percentage of male readership has perpetrated rape?
(yes that comment is deliberately provocative, because EVERY TIME the subject of men raping women comes up, this ‘to be fair’ question also comes up.)
I call bullshit.
The issue now is about WOMEN, not about men (except inasmuch as 90% of rapists [some would argue 100%]) are MEN.
Yes, yes, I know, men can be victims of rape too, and yes, yes, it is also a problem, yes, yes, but the issue here is MEN RAPING WOMEN.
Can we stick to that, just for today?
My question has always been this: with all the raping going on, and all the talk about rape statistics, WHO are the rapists? WHERE are they?
I’m not suggesting or implying that there are any here–but if you look at the statistics, there it would seem logical that in any group of 1,000 men, the likelihood that there is at least one rapist in the crowd is ….well…I don’t have time to do the math, but you get the drift.
If one in four women will be raped in her lifetime, does that mean that we just have an extremely large number of serial rapists in the population or does that mean that one in four men is also a rapist?
Most victims were boys. This is culture of child abuse/rape.
The topic is rape/incest/sexual abuse. The victims are women and children. Who else is a victim and what is the culture that it comes from?
What is the connection?
I have spent a lifetime addressing that very issue.
The behavior of Catholic priests is, imo, the logical extension of the whole Judeo-Christian tradition (stress: IMO, an opinion that is not likely to change any time soon: maybe, if the shit ever stops).
But the point I’m trying to make is that men ALWAYS, ALWAYS ALWAYS do this: as soon as the subject of women as victims of rape comes up, they need to bring the boys back to the center of the issue.
And that in and of itself is part of the problem.
Homo Homini Lupus
“. . . men are not gentle creatures, who want to be loved, who at the most can defend themselves if they are attacked; they are, on the contrary, creatures among whose instinctual endowments is to be reckoned a powerful share of aggressiveness. As a result, their neighbor is for them not only a potential helper or sexual object, but also someone who tempts them to satisfy their aggressiveness on him, to exploit his capacity for work without compensation, to use him sexually without his consent, to seize his possessions, to humiliate him, to cause him pain, to torture and to kill him. Homo homini lupus [man is wolf to man]. Who in the face of all his experience of life and of history, will have the courage to dispute this assertion?”
Sigmund Freud, Civilization and its Discontents, 1930
FREUD?
I beg of you, pls…………………………………………!
Don’t forget Lynndie England and Sabrina Harmon, torture queens and sexual abusers of Abu Ghraib. What culture produced them?
If you don’t take into consideration that many male rapists were themselves victims of child rape/sexual abuse I don’t think you’re going to get any definitive answers.
you’re completely missing my point, Suskind.
And, for the record, see my comment here w/ re men who are abused as children
I dunno. I’m not going to fight with you.
I am not one of the brave women who has posted a story here.
Let them decide whether they think it’s appropriate to turn the discussion to one of how a few exceptions to the rule turn out to be women.
All I’m trying to point out is the regularity with which these discussions ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS take precisely the turn you are trying to take.
I would prefer to see it not happen.
Just once.
But it’s really none of my business, actually.
I think the point Suskind’s trying to make is that if we want to stop rape (or at least lessen its frequency), we need to look at the root cause, which is why men do it.
There have been studies (can’t put my hands on them off the top of my head) that show that children who grow up in abusive households perpetuate that behavior — boys become abusers, girls are drawn to relationships with abusers. If you grow up feeling powerless, especially in the sexual area, you’re going to want to assert that power, prove that you are a “real man”.
What can stop this cycle of violence? Perhaps stiff prosecution of domestic violence, and more “safe houses” where abused spouses and their children can escape.
Not thinking completely straight right now — but I don’t think the point of Suskind’s post was to put men front and center, but rather to figure out how to stop the violence.
Just my $0.02…
I don’t see anyone here who is trying to shift the discussion away from women. None of the men (including me) or the women who have included boys in their comments are trying to shift the conversation away from women.
Does it count if the boys (including me again) who were molested and mentioned in these diaries, were molested or raped by men or older boys? Does that suit your criteria of men (males) as rapists?
Really Stark. Your defensiveness is showing. If you want a show of hands from the men on this site who are rapists, why don’t you post a diary. Just remember though, not to call bullshit when no one raises their hand ok, because the reason we (men) are participating here is that we are just as appalled as you are. The accident of my gender does not exclude me from being a human being. Nor does it make me a rapist or part of the perpetrator group.
No it doesn’t count. That’s what I’m saying: THERE IS NO EXCUSE.
(Frankly, if ‘abuses suffered’ were an ‘excuse,’ I’d be licensed to be a serial killer. I don’t buy the ‘oh she had such a traumatic childhood, therefore we must forgive her for going on a killing spree’–for any crime; rape included).
Note: I am not saying that there are rapists on this site, although statistically it’s not unlikely. My statement was more a veiled reference to that likelihood/probability at Dkos: purely from a statistical perspective, it is pretty likely that there are de facto rapists and wife beaters in any group of men over 1,000–and if some of the behaviors I have seen over there are any index, it seems VERY likely that there are de facto any number of rapists/wife beaters in that crowd. (In fact, there is no doubt in my mind that there are–but that’s ‘my mind’, not necessarily anything to be taken as ‘fact’).
Nevertheless, the behaviors are tolerated. Why?
And I’m sorry, Super, but there are any number of feminist theories which promote the notion that “every man is a potential rapist”–it’s not something I’m pulling out my ass or my hat–nor is it a theory I necessarily subscribe to, but it a ‘theory’ that has been advanced many times over by feminist writers/thinkers/activists (no time or inclination to look up specific refs there; they are out there).
What I do claim: rape is men’s problem (just as I see racism as being a problem of the ‘white’ race, not people of color). It is a problem only men can solve.
The rapists are amongst us. IndyLib posted a comment somewhere stating s.t. to the effect that almost anyone probably is either good friends or family with a rapist.
In my years as a musician, I cannot tell you how many times KNOWN rapists/wife beaters were simply accepted as members of the gang. Musicians. I remember one great, great conga player–he beat the living shit out of his girlfriend, regularly, one time, he cut her up in fact, landed her in the hospital.
Was he ostracized by his fellow musicians?
NO.
Did the known incidents have any economic or social ramifications for him?
NO.
He was fully accepted as a member of the community (St. Paul, MN).
Everyone kept hiring the fucking pig–for gigs, as an instructure. Even the women in our crowd said nothing, kept playing gigs with him, treated him like a ‘normal’ human being. From a patriarchal perspective, indeed, this WAS ‘normal’ behavior. So what he kicked the shit out of his girlfriend, cut her up, landed her in the hospital. Happens all the time. Yeah. It does.
Bet you any money he’s STILL up there doing the same old same old.
Boys will be boys, you know.
I say we as a community need to ostracize people like that–better yet, castrate or incarcerate them; and it won’t suffice for women alone to do this: men need to make it clear to other men that this is NOT ok behavior.
Another example: I had a brief affair with a guy in Germany. One night he came over to my house and kicked the living shit out of me. He would have killed me, I am quite certain, if I hadn’t been ‘clever’ enough to escape him. (No, I will not provide the gorey details on this incident or any other).
What bothers me most to this day: as I later learned, the guy had a rep for kicking the shit out of his ‘girlfriends’–he was a known rapist/woman beater. At least 3 women–all of them MY FRIENDS–knew about this prior because they had been beaten and/or raped by him.
EVERYONE knew this guy was a ‘beater.’ Everyone just tolerated the pig. WHen I started dating him, no one told me. No one warned me. Nada.
Damn good thing there were still ‘anarchist’ groups in Germany at the time: I went to them, told them what happened and about the fact that the guy was a KNOWN rapist/woman beater.
The incident was one of the major catalysts prompting me to leave Germany (not the only one, but one of many). Funniest thing, when I went back to Germany 6 months later, I found out that some people (I know not who) grabbed the guy off the street one night, kicked the living shit out of him and left him lying there in the street. The cops came by, and since the guy had no ID on him or anything, he got hauled in–at which point they figured out there were warrants out on him for any number of things. He got sent up. I don’t know what the charges were or for how long.
To this day, I do not know who kicked the shit out of him and set off the chain of events that took him off the street so that he could not keep beating the shit out of and/or raping women, but I don’t think it was an ‘accident’–whether it was karma, or the anarchists, I know not.
One thing the anarchist group had discussed was to grab the guy when he was drunk and tatoo a big fat “R” for rapist on his forehead. (Actually, since it was Germany, it would have been V for Vergewaltiger). Someone had suggested that this letter be tatooed on his cock–I said, No, by the time any woman gets to see THAT it’s too late. Better to put the mark directly on his forehead, so that he is identifiable from the get go.
I am not suggesting this type of ‘vigilante justice’ for America. This is America, it’s not Germany (unfortunately). I am suggesting that “alternative communities” must accept the responsibility for exerting whatever pressure it takes to get these bastards off the streets. Whatever measures are appropriate–if that includes ‘economic’ and ‘social’ ostracization or whatever….these guys need to get the message that their ‘peers’ don’t approve, and, unless I see their ‘peers’ giving them that message, I personally have to assume that their peers DO approve.
I may have read this wrong so forgive me my imperfections…but it kinda sounds like to me that you blew off super’s molestation just because he’s a guy.
OK, you’re right. And I’m sorry Super.
Here’s my point, actually:
child abuse (male and female) and the issue of men raping women are indeed related and both are serious, horrific and all too widespread. One major distinction, however, boys have the “luxury” of someday growing up to become men and are then no longer prey. Girls do not have that luxury. They remain ‘prey’ for all of their lives, as has been discussed in these diaries.
This is not to diminish the pain and suffering and lifelong scarring that accompanies any form of child abuse–whether directed at girls or boys.
I am reminded of a slogan from Germany in WWII, used to describe the raping of German women by Allied soldiers: “girls from 8 to 80”–that is, all “girls” aged “8 to 80” were ‘fair game.’
And that is why I personally insist on making distinctions between child abuse (even when it includes any degree of sexual assault) and the rape of women. Because for women, the threat does not stop when they grow up. They remain, in a sense, ‘girls’ — from 8 to 80 — all their lives, at least as far as the risk of being raped is concerned.
I dunno about scientific research or anything like that, all I have is anecdotal. But when I was in therapy we had young boys, teenagers, and men who still FELT like prey years after the abuse. Now as you as say…they may not actually BE prey…but the feeling is still there and it doesn’t go away. Just because they are male is no reason to dismiss it is all I am saying.
This is not to diminish the pain and suffering and lifelong scarring that accompanies any form of child abuse–whether directed at girls or boys.
Sigh.
Do I have to put it in BOLD CAPS in order to be understood?
I think the underlying dynamics are different–and for this reason the issues should be treated separately. That is all.
Whether men feel like prey for the rest of their lives is also another issue–I do not doubt it for a minute, the aftermath and lifelong scars of any form of abuse are horrific–the fact is, statistically, once boys become men, they are de facto not at risk in the same way women are. That is neither anecdotal nor speculative: it is fact.
You know I think I am gonna end this. I also think that you need to work your on tone. Thanks for responding.
You were right to take me out on trampling Supersoling’s story/suffering to make my point–and I apologize again for that–twas sloppy and inconsiderate, I concede.
As to the tone: to each his own.
Well I am sorry if I may have come off as rude. I tried not too. It’s very difficult for me to communicate in the written word…I tend to rely on facial expressions and body language so words just don’t cut it. 😉
You didn’t come off as rude: it’s a “stylistic” thing–I pride myself on being rude. 😉 But only when necessary.
In this case, it was uncalled for.
As to style: sorry, I throw words around like some people fling dirty laundry in search of a missing matching sock.
Some people on this site have gotten used to it (and so have I). And that’s a good thing because if we all pruned our words to fit the same pattern of politeness and propriety, the world would indeed be a very boring place.
LOL how true is that? 😉 Thanks for the smile so early in the day.
We are alot alike in the way of “priding ourselves on being rude”. I used to be like that, until I had my kid. I have no idea what happened…the hubby looked at me one day and said…How come you’re not a bitch anymore? I had no answer. 😉
Two birds w/ one stone (on the fly):
First: at Maryb’s suggestion–here, have a {{hug}}
(and here’s one for Super {{{ }}}. )
As to the kid part: professional rudeness is a very strenuous thing to maintain, and certainly not something I exercise in the presence of children (but I thought we were all adults here;-)).
This is one reason my hubby and I have a strict division of labor (in our business as music instructors): he has no patience for children and I have very little for adults–so he takes on the ‘big kids,’ and I do the little ones.
Since we have none of our own, we get to send them home to their parents after class (or performance), and I get to fling the laundry whereever and whenever I see fit. Hubby has learned how to duck.
(that was supposed to be ‘funny’–a peace offering as it were).
oh it was quite funny. 😉 The best part about dealing with other people’s kids is that they go back home. 😉
Oops! forgot the hug!
{{{{starkravinglunaticradical}}}
thanks.
And I actually learned something new here:
the cyberhug.
{{{ cake or death }}}
I think mary was right..what is this? the battle of the cyberhug?
{{{{{{{{{{{{{starkravinglunaticradical}}}}}}}}}}}}
HA! MINE’S BIGGER THAN YOURS!!!!! TOP THAT!!
😉
help. I’ve been crushed by a piece of cake.
lol.
lol hopefully not to death. 😉
ROFLMAO
with that one!
Sorry lol. Was the first thing that popped into my head considering the name. 😉
You two aren’t going to start hugging now are you?
DAMN I love it when people can stick to a sticky dialogue until they really “get” each other!! Way ta go you two!
hug supersoling, and thank him for his courage.
I don’t know if it is harder for women or for men to talk about these things, I suspect it may be one of those things like chess, or rubik’s cube, that is equally hard regardless of gender, but for different reasons.
Or maybe not such different reasons. In both cases, culture makes victims of these crimes feel they are less, whether that is less woman or less man is irrelevant, not all can immediately appreciate the irony, that standing up to say, it happened to me, too, and thus putting their chip, their little hole in the culture of silence and shame, and giving courage to someone reading who may never post, but who may be helped to begin to heal, makes them so much MORE!
{{{{{{{{{{{{{supersoling}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
(That was a very modern and secure man-hug)
and the postmodern (formerly feminist) response would be:
Well you don’t have to break his RIBS, for chrissake. lol.
{{{{ supersoling }}}}
A modern and secure manly squeak, of course.
;->
Modern and secure manly hug huh?
Well, I’ll take what I can get Mr. Fatwa ;o)
Thanks for speaking up for me. Not that I needed you to or anything ;o) Me and Stark are cool.
I’m picturing your 5’2 self standing in front of my 6’3 self and feeling very protected :o)
Kind of a funny mental image isn’t it? I know it just kinda cracked me up. 😉
Hey Stark,
I for one appreciate your rudeness if that’s what you want to call it. I call it forceful and direct. No trouble there.
I appreciate your words here and always appreciate your opinion and experience in all other discussions.
What difference does it make ?
If one in six or half or three-quarters or 100% of the world’s women are subjected to discrimination and abuse, will the number change something for you ?
If there are enough of us, will you speak out to other men about the damage they are doing with their sexist attitudes and behaviors ? How many will it take ? How many is enough ?
Or is this yet another case of “Oh, it can’t really be that bad. Prove it.”
suskind, spend this weekend looking and listening to how men treat women, how they look at us, how they talk about us. Really pay attention for just one weekend. Look at television ads and billboards. Sit alone in a restaurant and listen to conversations between couples. Read some jokes. Rent some porn. Pretend you are new to the planet, and observe. Imagine that the genders were reversed, and how you’d feel if you were the woman.
Not too much to ask. One weekend’s attention for half of humanity.
The numbers are astonishing…. Almost every female has experienced this kind of crime…. and it’s going unreported because of fear.
Not only that, but I believe we are in a period extraordinary DE-EVOLUTION OF FEMINISM IN AMERICA. Losing ground gained during the Civil Rights struggle of the 50’s and 60’s and ground gained during the feminist period of the 60’s and 70’s is shocking and demoralizing.
My point is the problem of violence/rape/abuse of women is worse than anybody could imagine. If it weren’t for some very brave souls reporting here and there the overwhelming numbers would not have become so apparent.
Yes, the number thing does something for me. The number of women who have been abused or raped in this community is really shocking.
I guess my problem is that it is NOT worse than anyone can imagine. Many of us here have been screaming about it for forty years. We have worked rape crisis lines, battered women’s shelters, and adult survivor groups. We wrote letters to the editor and articles that will never be published because the topic is “sensitive”. We’ve read a thousand accounts of abuse so awful that we see dead women in our dreams. I still can see the photograph of a woman’s genitals that looked like hamburger after her husband taught her a lesson by scrubbing off her clitoris with a metal barbeque brush. Or the woman whose husband forced her to fellate the family dog in front of her children so they could see what a whore their mother is.
I’m not magic. I know these things because I choose to learn about them, because turning away dishonours the victims and does nothing to stop it.
So I’m a bit impatient with surprise that this is the way the world is for women. Too many years in the trenches.
I hear ya, susanw, and that’s why I’m outta here
….exhausting, simply exhausting, the “Gee-I-Didn’t-Know-Joe”-syndrome is what I call it.
Sigh.
Do I think American culture is sick? Yes.
Have I ever been a victim of sexual abuse or rape? Yes and yes and yes.
Was it the worst thing that ever happened to me in my life? No. Being beaten by cops and locked up without an attorney was worse.
Have I ever raped or sexually abused anyone? No.
Have I ever been violent? Yes…. seven times. I socked my sister. I spanked my child. I hit my cat. I threw a lighter at my ex. I socked my ex in the jaw. (The ex had been abusive for 10 years… I cracked. I cried and regretted it. I rang a therapist. The abusive ex was a victim of abuse… and so the cycle goes.) There were two other times… one was during a rape when I smashed the rapist’s head against the wall to try and stop him from doing it. The last one I can’t remember right now.
Have I ever used anyone? Yes. I think people do it all the time. For power, for prestige, for resentment, for frustration, for revenge. Do I regret it? You bet. PEOPLE ARE NOT FOR USE.
What do I think the worst crime on earth is? Violence and abuse of children.
I agree. There is nothing worse than violence and abuse of children.
You sound like a genuinely good and self aware person, suskind. I did not intend for my frustration to be an attack on you. You’re one of the good guys, and I appriciate more than I can say your participation and contribution to this discussion.
If all men were like you, I could sleep through the night, take a walk in the dark, and never have to hold another woman or child’s hand in the ER.
Right now on the recommended diaries 5 out of 8 are rape/abuse of women diaries. Sally Cat’s was really amazing, here and over at DKos where it had more than one hundred recommends. The Pie Wars do not look like good clean fun anymore.
I think I have read all the women survivor diaries and recommended them all.
I hate this shit. I really do. And I think it’s getting worse. The signs of the times are not good for women.
I try to be methodical. What is the problem. Where is the problem coming from? How extensive is the problem. What populations are involved in the problem… causes and solutions.
Now Booman is going distracted and getting depressed. But these diaries are an indication of something that is deep-seated and real. The frustration and rage levels seem pretty high… which is another indication that the problem is getting worse not better.
Rape statistics do not acurately convey the extent of the problem… because out of fear they go unreported. There are reprisals. There is a serious price for telling the truth.
This diary is also about having the courage to post on DKos — which alienated loads and loads of women for misogyny. Hatred or disrespect of women cannot be considered liberal or democratic.
It was for community that so many people came here. And for community that so many stay and contribute, and do not venture over to DKos.
For these reasons, and many more, I like this diary:
Effective Counter Attack; Consideration or Implosion?
by NorthDakotaDemocrat
Why should it shock you?
Here are the stats: where do you think these women are “hiding”? who do you think these women are?
Again, what interests me more is who and where the men who are raping these women are hiding.
Where are they?
Who are they?
Why are they not being castrated?
AMERICAN RAPE STATISTICS
Somewhere in America, a woman is raped every 2 minutes, according to the U.S. Department of Justice.
In 1995, 354,670 women were the victims of a rape or sexual assault. (NationalCrime Victimization Survey. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice, 1996.)
Over the last two years, more than 787,000 women were the victim of a rape or sexual assault. (National Crime Victimization Survey. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S.Department of Justice, 1996.)
The FBI estimates that 72 of every 100,000 females in the United States wereraped last year. (Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform Crime Statistics, 1996.)
SILENT VICTIMS :
One of the most startling aspects of sex crimes is how many go unreported. The most common reasons given by women for not reporting these crimes are the belief that it is a private or personal matter and the fear of reprisal from the assailant.
Approximately 28% of victims are raped by husbands or boyfriends, 35% by acquaintances, and 5% by other relatives. (Violence against Women, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994)
The FBI estimates that only 37% of all rapes are reported to the police. U.S. Justice Department statistics are even lower, with only 26% of all rapes or attempted rapes being reported to law enforcement officials.
In 1994-1995, only 251,560 rapes and sexual assaults were reported to law enforcement officials — less than one in every three. (National Crime Victimization Survey, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice, 1996.)
An overwhelming majority of rape service agencies believe that public education about rape, and expanded counseling and advocacy services for rape victims, would be effective in increasing the willingness of victims to report rapes to the police. (Rape in America, 1992, National Victim Center with Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center.)
LIVING IN FEAR :
According to the U.S. Department of Justice: (All statistics are taken from: Violenceagainst Women, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994.)
One of every four rapes take place in a public area or in a parking garage.
31% of female victims reported that the offender was a stranger.
68% of rapes occur between the hours of 6 p.m. and 6 a.m.
At least 45% of rapists were under the influence of alcohol or drugs.
In 29% of rapes, the offender used a weapon.
In 47% of rapes, the victim sustained injuries other than rape injuries.
75% of female rape victims require medical care after the attack.
NOT JUST A FAMILY MATTER :
Family violence and abuse are among the most prevalent forms of interpersonal violence against women and young children — both boys and girls. The sexual abuse of a child should never be “just a family matter,” but many children are afraid to report an incident to the police because the abusers are too often a family friend or relative.
Approximately one-third of all juvenile victims of sexual abuse cases are children younger than 6 years of age. (Violence and the Family, Report of the American Psychological Association Presidential Task Force on Violence and the Family, 1996.)
According to the Justice Department, one in two rape victims are under age 18; one in six are under age 12. (Child Rape Victims, 1992. U.S. Department of Justice.)
FACE OF AMERICA :
About 81% of rape victims are white; 18% are black; 1% are of other races. (Violence against Women, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994.)
About half of all rape victims are in the lowest third of income distribution; half are in the upper two-thirds. (Violence against Women, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994.)
There were 71 forcible rapes per 100,000 females reported to United States law enforcement agencies in 1996. 2
Data from the National Women’s Study, a longitudinal telephone survey of a national household probability sample of women at least 18 years of age, show 683,000 women forcibly raped each year and that 84% of rape victims did not report the offense to the police.3
Using Uniform Crime Report data for 1994 and 1995, the Bureau of Justice Statistics found that of rape victims who reported the offense to law enforcement, about 40% were under the age of 18, and 15% were younger than 12.4
In a national survey 27.7% of college women reported a sexual experience since the age of fourteen that met the legal definition of rape or attempted rape, and 7.7% of college men reported perpetrating aggressive behavior which met the legal definition of rape.5
The National Crime Victimization Survey indicates that for 1992-1993, 92% of rapes were committed by known assailants.1 About half of all rapes and sexual assaults against women are committed by friends and acquaintances, and 26% are by intimate partners.1
Risk factors for perpetrating sexual violence include: early sexual experience (both forced and voluntary),6 adherence by men to sex role stereotyping,7,8 negative attitudes of men towards women,6,9,,10,11,12, alcohol consumption,8,13 acceptance of rape myths by men.8,9,12,14,15
Non-forceful verbal resistance and lack of resistance are associated with rape completion.1,6
The adult pregnancy rate associated with rape is estimated to be 4.7%. This information, in conjunction with estimates based on the U.S. Census, suggest that there may be 32,101 annual rape-related pregnancies among American women over the age of 18.17
Non-genital physical injuries occur in approximately 40% of completed rape cases.18 As many as 3% of all rape cases have non-genital injuries requiring overnight hospitalization.19
Victims of rape often manifest long-term symptoms of chronic headaches,18,20fatigue20, sleep disturbance20, recurrent nausea,20 decreased appetite,21 eating disorders,22 menstrual pain,18 sexual dysfunction,23 and suicide attempts.21 In a longitudinal study, sexual assault was found to increase the odds of substance abuse by a factor of 2.5.24
Estimates of the occurrence of sexually transmitted diseases resulting from rape range from 3.6% to 30%.18,22 HIV transmission risk rate from rape is estimated at 1 in 500,22,25 although a few probable cases have been documented in Sweden and Great Britain. 26,27
Victims of marital or date rape are 11 times more likely to be clinically depressed, and 6 times more likely to experience social phobia than are non-victims. Psychological problems are still evident in cases as long as 15 years after the assault.28
Fatalities occur in about 0.1% of all rape cases.29,30
A study examining the use of health services over a five year period by female members of a health maintenance program found that the number of visits to physicians by rape victims increased 56% in the year following the crime, compared to a 2% utilization increase by non-victims.31
The National Public Services Research Institute estimates the lifetime cost for each rape with physical injuries which occurred in 1987 to be $60,000.32
I think I reserved the right to punch Kos in the stomach just once in a jail cell (sounds bad huh!)……and I think I called him a wanker once….I’m not sure if it was wanker but something along those lines. Freedom’s Just Another Word for Nothing Left to Lose. ONward!
issues so much. Supposedly he is married….how can someone encourage women to be so second class and really love his wife? In all honesty the only other men I have ever known to treat women politically like such shit belong to the Log Cabin Republicans. At least the straight male Republican still hopes some girl will want him and sometimes they even take that into consideration….but Kos has completely written women off daily…….it’s weird!!!
A long time ago, before the pie wars, I posted a story over there about my early years of church condoned abuse. It hit the rec list and was very well recieved.
I don’t think we should judge every guy who reads at at Kos by the actions of some who are just plain jerks.
I’m not going over there to attack Kos or his site. That just happens to be where this incident occured that I need to deal with, for me. My hope was that out of the many who read there, some might gain from the stories, just as people here have. I’ve no illusions about, or stake in trying to change the tone there.
As for who gets raped by who, we all know the general numbers. All of it is horrible. The is no excuse for any of it. But the big issue I see raised here go way beyond the rape issue alone..to emcompass the reality that over half the population of this country knows for a fact we are not ever truly safe from assault of all kinds, and we must live our lives on guard, often against the very men we trusted. Now we are about to lose even the right to contol what happens to our very own bodies. This is about abuse of power and control through rape, incest, and physcial/verbal violence against over one half of the polulation, who has ben been denied the same freedoms and civil rights as the othr half is granted.
If women by ourselves could change the basic cultural poison that causes this, it would have been fixed by now. It’s not.
Again, I fervently hope no women posts anything there under pressure from anything I have said. I’m not afraid anymore, and please don’t so anything that doesn’t feel right for you, including going over ther to support me or anyone else. Take care of yourselves first; that has to be the very first priority.
Thanks for this diary, and for the invitation.
Thanks for being inclusive.
I will support you here, there and everywhere.
Onward!
Scribe,
You know I’ll be there.
Honestly with the shift in the court and the general new increased assaults on Roe, I think there might be a much better reaction to your diary than you think.
Is it possible some of the KozKidz Boyz will act like the adolescents they are not so far removed from chronologically? … yeah maybe … but I think they will be a very small minority.
Anyway, like I said, I’ll be there to lend support any way I can.
(…and by the way…thank you… what you and the other women have been doing here over the past week has been nothing short of utterly awe inspiring…
I’m thinking of using some your stories as a sort “teaching tool” with my fifteen year old son. Although I’ve had a few “the talks” with him about his responsibilities as a male in society, and he has so far turned out to be a thoughtful and sensitive young man, I think reading some of these stories would help cement it into his mind.)
One thing that happens for me regarding fear is this: once I own it, it stops owning me. Once I see it’s roots, they tend to wither. And once I decide on an action, I’ve won. I’m not nearly so sure I’ll get hammered now: fear does tend to magnifies itself. In fact, i’m pretty sure that may not happen at all. (But then the diary isn’t written yet either! 🙂
But glad to know you’re there.
I started with my Choosing Life diary. How do you guys do that linking thing at the top where it says in green “Originally Posted at Booman Tribune”?
You KNOW I’ll be there – if for no other reason than to watch you take out anyone that tries any of the frat-boy stuff. I just love to see an Amazon in action – even if its virtual!
My one qualification is that I’ll have to be there more in spirit if its up on Monday (you know that “work” thing) – so without putting on a lot of pressure – I’m hoping you get it up on Sunday.
It’ll be Sunday…cuz Monday just filled itself up. 🙂
I want to tell you that every time I see your sigline, ONward!, it makes me smile. It’s so positive and forceful and I think it suits you. 🙂
Thanks, Olivia. I chose it because no other direction ever worked out worth a darn!
is on the rec list. Probably because of all you yahoos huh? It has gone well. I have been painting the bathroom, I think I have a good feeling about this. I didn’t want a tip jar but they made me. Something about being a Kos Trusted User or whatever it is over there that after the pie wars feels like it would be a slap in my face. So, I’m doing the Steps.
Step 1. I admitted that I am powerless over the Mojo and my blogging attitudes have become unmanageable.
I’m working on Step 2……where a power greater than myself will restore my blogging attitudes to sanity.
:::Yahoo raises hand:::
Yup it’s us again 😉 I saw the comments in there and I must say Tracy…so far so good.
I never left Big Orange even during the worst of the flamethrowing; removing sane people won’t improve the asylum. I support you here, and I will support you there too.