[promoted by BooMan]
I grew up in a large Catholic family that was overwhelmingly made up of females. I had six sisters and only one brother who was several years older than I.
My father was an alcoholic, but a very quiet one. He didn’t get roaring drunk and hit us or go on rampages through the house. Mostly he just sat on the couch drinking beer after beer; Pabst Blue Ribbon to be specific.
Or he sat on a barstool at Bud’s White Door, drinking beer after beer. In fact, the only time I can remember going out with my father was when he took me to Bud’s and sat me down at a table in the darkened bar and gave me a piece of blank paper and a single blue crayon. I was 5 years old. I drew for a few minutes but there’s not much you can do with only one crayon, so I watched the men sitting at the counter smoking and drinking in the middle of the day. Then I believe I fell asleep.
I’m the little one. Dad is on the porch with his mother, both of them probably had a beer next to them even though this is early in the day.
My father didn’t work much. I remember a couple of the jobs he had. One was a security guard at an office building. I think he had that for a month or two. Another time he got paid for cleaning the hoses that led from the beer taps at area bars. I’m not sure if he got paid in actual money or in free beers because we never had any money.
My parents owned a house and their mortgage payment was $75.00 a month. Most months they couldn’t pay it and I remember my mother crying and begging her mother for money over the phone. She never gave it to her because she was practicing “tough love” or something.
So my mother went to work as a telephone operator and the eight of us were home alone all the time. My father was either gone, or he was passed out on the couch. It was like growing up in a pack of wolves, with the older ones taking care of the younger ones as best they could and all of us running wild around the neighborhood.
My mother wore the pants in the family. She was the disciplinarian. She was the one to be reckoned with. She was the one whose approval we sought and whose word meant something.
My father was a total non-factor in my life. Even his death of cirrhosis when he was 51 and I was 14 was almost a non-event.
The memories I have of the week following his death are mostly happy ones. We got lots of attention. We saw friends and relatives we hadn’t seen in a long time. And for the first time ever we had lots of food – food that normal families ate like lasagne and brownies. We were used to having oatmeal for dinner and being forbidden to eat anything between meals. I didn’t want that week to end.
Jump ahead a decade or so. I’m now a mother of four children, 3 of them sons.
I love them ferociously and with an intensity that still shocks me on occasion. I cannot possibly believe my parents loved me this way. I just know they didn’t.
Through the years i’ve tried to be a good mother to all of my kids but it hasn’t always been easy. I’ve had a couple bouts of severe depression. We’ve had financial hardships that sometimes made my children feel different from their friends. My children have had to grow up quickly and with few of the luxuries their peers had. Their father and I divorced after 20 years of marriage. Their father was almost a non-factor in their lives, just as my father was. Irony abounds.
My question is this, directed to both BooMen and BooWomen. Knowing that my history is one of not trusting men and in fact the belief that men are expendable and not to be counted on, how do I possibly raise sons who feel important and a daughter who doesn’t feel the same way that I do?
My children are mostly all raised now but I’d like to think that it’s not too late to have a positive impact on them. I would count it as the greatest failure of my life if my sons grew up to be ineffectual, uninvolved fathers, and my daughter married one.
I would count it as the greatest failure of my life if my sons grew up to be ineffectual, uninvolved fathers, and my daughter married one.
(((Second Nature))) What a brave diary. I give you so much credit for loving your children enough to tell this story and to ask these questions.
I had to momentarily de-lurk to tell you this, but I’ll be back later.
Thanks, maryb! I feel honored that I made you de-lurk. My day has been a success.
You got me to de-lurk too! And I’m busy as you know what at work right now! That is an accomplishment, my friend! Hope to catch you later in the lounge…
you have written here. I feel you have captured what a lot of people have gone through in their childhood and early adult years … the absence, whether real or perceived, of someone who should by all rights be a central figure in one’s life. I don’t think your experience is uncommon, and many of us can relate to at least some of the issues you bring up. I don’t have a lot of time to comment now, but just wanted to say I was very touched by this diary.
Although my father was somewhat more “present” in my life than yours, he wasn’t much of a factor–and whenever my mother went on one of her frequent rages, he would slip away to his favorite bar, leaving my sister and me to deal. So I very much understand where you’re coming from.
I think that I would recommend that you strongly encourage all of your children to be aware of and take care of their mental health. There’s a hereditary factor to depression, after all. My own childhood would surely have been less painful had both of my parents acknowledged and addressed their mental health issues. Instead, our family doctor dosed my mother with the tranquilizer du jour just to shut her up, and Dad ran away and drank.
If your children are able to recognize when they’re having trouble coping and that it’s not shameful to admit that and seek help, they’ll be healthier and so will their relationships. It isn’t easy for anyone to do those things in our society, but I think it’s harder for men.
I have thought alot about the heredity factor to my depression and the alcoholism that runs in my family. I think my father was depressed, and though she denies it, I think my mother was too. His manifested in his drinking and withdrawing from his family and his problems, and hers was to lash out in anger.
I am constantly vigilant about my kids’ mental health. I’ve spoken to them about depression and the possibility that they’re predisposed to it.
Talking about it–letting them know that it’s a good think to talk about it–is so important. My mother still vigorously denies having any mental health issues–she insists her “nerves were shot” by a childhood bout with scarlet fever. And I was embarrassed for so many years to admit my problems with depression–still can’t talk about it with my parents. I was hospitalized for severe depression and never told them.
Sounds like you’ve already done a great deal to set them on the right path in this regard.
Er, that would be “good thing” rather than “good think.” So much for my editorial cred.
See, the good thing about my medication is that I can figure out typos! The ability to concentrate is a wonderful and new experience for me!
Teach them the importance of talking about whatever is bothering them.
This is one of the things men can learn from our sisters, if we will. They do not keep things bottled up. If something is on their minds, they will talk about it to somebody.
Whether they are aware of it or not, this is one of the fundamentals of good mental health, and the basis of the treatment of mental and emotional illness.
By developing a habit of communication, one can avoid having problems reach the point of illness, kind of like the way a daily bath prevents skin fungus.
Good evening Mr. Fatwa,
You’ve just communicated the most important thing a parent can do for her (or his) parent. Communicating openly. In my home this has been the single best source of trust between us all. My kids know that they can come and talk about anything. Anything at all. The good, the bad, and the things that slide toward the ugly persuasion ;o) I’ve never felt the need to sneak up on my kids because they relate their lives to me.
That is a blessing.
Ah yes, the sins of the father. I refuse to stay a victim of my fathers alcoholism, meanness and nonpresence in my life. By doing that I can set an example for my son. Ihad to let go of not trusting men because of my dad or husbands. All men are not that way. Letting go has not come easy and has been very painful at times. It was up to me. I had the choice to remain in victimhood thus making myself (and all others around me)miserable and unhappy or to move out of the past and into the present. Lots of soul searching, taking responsibility for my own life, therapy, yaddy yaddy.
Your kids are grown and they are on their own journeys now. To be present is the gift. To be here now. To live in the moment. We cannot go back and change those things that happened to us, only our reaction to them.
I don’t feel victimized by him. When therapists try to label me as an adult child of an alcoholic I reject it because I didn’t really know he was one, so how could it have affected me?
I recently started on anti-depressants for the first time in my life and they’re working – and also giving me some clarity about my life that is at times exhilarating and other times troubling.
The ineffectual father and then husband thing was a recent revelation of mine. Did I choose a husband that was a non-factor, or did I turn him into one?
If it sounded as if I was implying you were in victimhood I am sorry. I was only speaking for myself there. I certainly admire that you found comfort in the antidepressants.
I carried alot of shame and guilt around because i became the absent mother during my drinking days. I still do at times. But that was 25+ years ago and I know all I can do to make amends for that behavior is to not repeat it and be the best possible person for my family I am capable of. You are a wonderful person SN and I am sure your children love and appreciate you. You found out was was causing you to go hide in bed and are doing something about it. What a brave thing to do.
When do we stop feeling guilty? I need to let go of things that I can’t do anything about. π
Honestly…probably never. Most of the time I don’t think about it but something comes up from time to time to trigger those feelings. I will never forget a time I was talking with my son about ten years ago, making yet another amends. He finally said, “Mom, I forgave you all long time ago. You need to forgive yourself”. That right there was huuuuuuuge for me. I think I stopped beating myself up so much from that time on.
It just happens. Takes awhile and you have to go thru all sorts of bs, but it does happen. Could be sudden, and then something could bring it back. Other times, the guilt can be permanently erased by the simplest thing. When you don’t expect it is when it happens.
At least, that has how it has worked in my life.
so I don’t feel I can say anything to that end but I do share the experience of having mostly done without a father in my life since my father was almost always at work during my waking hours and he died when I was 12. My mother did get married again when I was 18 but my stepfather and I had a terrible relationship for many years.
But, as you know, I’ve been married for 34 years so I don’t think that the absence of my biological father or the presence of my stepfather affected my ability to create good relationships. I think I learned about relationships through the sum of everybody I’ve come in contact with — my mother, aunts, uncles, cousins, next-door neighbors, friends, parents of friends, boyfriends, etc. The most important thing I learned was how to be a good friend and that (along with the uneven number of pets) is what I believe is at the heart of all good marriages.
I think you are a very caring person of great humor, passion, and intelligence. Having you as a friend is a delight for me. So maybe I’m oversimplifying but I tend to think that being raised by someone who is loving and caring about other people is fine way to learn how to do the same.
The great tendency of mothers is to obsess over the way we raise our children and I have more than ample opportunity to do that. I feel such guilt that they had a depressed, untreated mother and an absent father! Even though I believe they never had a day where they doubted my love for them, I still am haunted by all of those lost days when I slept and parked them in front of the TV instead of playing with them. I am ashamed that my 6 yer old was making me coffee and begging me to wake up.
When my dad died, my mother took a “vacation” from being a mother for about three years. She just stopped dealing with everything. Being the pushiest one in the family I stepped in and became the family decision maker. I never saw my mother as somehow less because of that — I understood that she had been hurt in ways that I didn’t understand. If you had really hurt your kids, they would let you know in so many ways that you would never have any doubt about it — I’ve had a lot of experience seeing this with my stepsister’s kids.
I know you feel guilty — you’re like me, you were raised to feel guilty. If you had been picture perfect, you’d still be finding something to feel bad about.
because my father, even though he had his faults, was always there. I was just thinking today about how, when I was twelve years old or so, he packed me up at about 3 in the morning one Friday and drove me up to Seattle (a distance of 200 miles) so I could take a test for my ham radio license. If any of us kids was doing a play, or a concert, or marching in a parade (my sisters were baton twirlers) the family was always there to support them.
That’s probably about the best advice I can give, is for you to be there to support the kids. Try to let them know that just because their father wasn’t all that doesn’t mean that all men are untrustworthy. Emphasize that he had his good points; after all, he gave you three (or four, or whatever) beautiful children. Make sure they know that you love them. Do things together. Even though they’re mostly grown, you should be able to set aside time to do things as a family — picnics in the park, playing Monopoly, going to a peace rally, whatever.
One thing we did with our boys was to let them know that we did not approve of them having sex before they were married any more than we approved of our daughter having sex before she was married. (Yeah, we are a pretty conservative family in some ways when you get down to it. At least we were consistent.) But I made sure they knew about condoms, and I told them in no uncertain terms, if you’re going to go against my wishes, you’d better not be irresponsible on top of it, because if you have kids we expect you to support them. None of this boys-will-be-boys crap with us.
As it turned out, both of our boys are in long-term relationships where children out of wedlock were involved, so I’m not sure how successful I was with the “stupid plus irresponsible” part of the parenting; but one of them married the mother, the other is getting married in July, and they both love their kids and SOs, so I guess it’s all worked out.
I’m rambling a bit, but I guess the main point is: Make sure your kids know you love them and support them. That’s what we tried to do with ours, that’s what we’re trying to do now that we’re raising our granddaughter (long story there) and I think that’s the best thing a parent can do for their kids.
Thanks, Omir. Your father sounds like a wonderful guy. I have talked to my sons about condoms and responsbility and also about respecting boundaries and that the girl/woman has the right to say no at any time and he must stop. Sometimes I’m afraid I go overboard and make them feel guilty, or that my mistrust is showing like a big flashing red light!
I was going to say first off, you’ve shared this history w/ your sons and daughter? You’ve got a good rltnshp w/ Mr. Nature, so you are positive role modelling. Being open about depression as well — not hiding it. I found in my family the grown-ups were always hiding things that we kids could so clearly see, therefore creating a feeling of distrust and secrecy and reinforcing the idea that you must never talk about this stuff (so if things do get bumpy down the line, you don’t get help).
I don’t know about sons, I don’t have any children and not being a man, I’m not sure how to approach this. (I’d be interested to read some of the mens’ perspectives.) But your sons will feel important, b/c you love them intensely as you pointed out. And that is a solid base SN. As for your daughter. You’ve taught her to be strong and independent. Be open w/ her about your history and how it could impact her own.
And at a certain point they will make their choices SN, and you know — some of them may not be the best. But that doesn’t mean you’ve not done the right things. We all have to live life and sometimes it’s messy. Being there for them is the important thing.
As for growing up w/ a not so good childhood. I grew up with an alcoholic father who was mean when he drank. My mother did nothing about it and acted like it was all okay. I sometimes thought it would be so much better if my parents divorced b/c they fought all the time and it was really frightening at times. But they’re still together. And I’m okay. I’m married to a wonderful guy who is not an alcoholic. My marriage is nothing like my parents’ role modelled version.
I am very moved by your story SN. The very fact that you think these things shows your caring nature, speaks volumes in fact.
Thank you, Olivia. Your words are as beautiful as your flowers!
I’m happy that you have a loving relationship with a good man. Mr. Nature is a good man too, but there are trust issues that I’m constantly dealing with that are mostly in my head. These ghosts are hard to get rid of.
You sound like someone who has been an extremely loving, dependable and respectful parent. That example should go a long way toward helping your kids of both genders. In truth, your situation could have been reversed. Your Dad could have been more responsible than your Mom. It happens a lot. One’s value isn’t dependent on one’s gender. It is brave and honest of you to ask these questions. I think being honest with your kids about the fact that your unresolved issues effects the way you deal with them, would be a good place to start. Then go on loving and valuing each of them as individuals. We all do the best we can as parents and none of us does it without bringing our own baggage to the task.
Love and trust. I believe you will all be fine.
I don’t know what to say. All I can think of is that I wish I could jump into your living room and rustle you up a good huggin.
I worry about my kids as well. My history is not the greatest and I have lots of reason to doubt my parent skills or if I will be a “succes””… actually I think it doesn’t matter what we moms “succeed” in doing – it’s what our kids are feeling. They feel love. They must with a wonderfully sensitive and funny and caring – all those positive adjectives that your friends here know you are.
So since they feel your love… that in itself is a huge chunk out of the histry chain.
Love and strength will help them find their own ways.
You a failure?? “INCONCEIVABLE” π
I’m feelin’ your love, DJ. π
Your kids have such a dynamic, down to earth mother!
Hi SN,
First, do you feel that you haven’t had a positive effect on them?
Second, how do your kids feel about you? About their father?
If you’ve been there, with them and for them all along, I would almost guarantee that they understand what it is to be a loving parent, male or female.
In my case my mother raised four sons on her own after I was 11. I don’t agree with many things she did or didn’t do, but what came through loud and clear was that you never abandon your child. That means not abandoning them to a corner of a bar even when you’re both there. That means not abandoning them to a life full of uncertainty. Everyone goes through trying times, emotionally and financially, but those times can serve as bridge to more closeness and trust. A Mother who stays with her kids through thick and thin is a Mother who is teaching her kids what it is to be a good parent. I don’t think gender has all that much to do with it.
On the other hand….I have always payed slightly closer attention to my daughters because the truth is that they are just more vulnerable. That’s my opinion. Of course who the hell am I? ;o)
I’ve known for some time that the passionate way in which you describe your kids, and the pride that beams from you when you talk about them is all the information I would need to make a judgement about your parenting skills.
They’ll be fine…and so will you :o)
ps
You were a mighty cute munchkin back in the day :o)
Thanks Super, and nice to see you again!
I don’t worry that much about my relationship with my kids – they know I love them and put them first. But I think that I helped to trivialize their father in their eyes and he wasn’t a bad guy, just shallow and ineffectual. Their relationship with him is superficial at best and they only see him once a year or so.
Whenever I read about how important the father/child bond is, I wonder if they’ll realize someday how much I discounted it right from the start and resent me for it.
Thanks for your kind words!
Here’s a little more of my personal experience with resentment.
My Mother discounted my Father constantly. I did definetily resent it because it took away his humanity and turned him (she apparently hoped)into someone who abandoned us when in fact he was banished.
In spite of that I think I’ve done a fair job as a Dad.
Do your kids discount their Father?
Yes, they do. But he cooperates nicely by trying to get out of paying child support, never calling, not coming to school plays or high school graduations and generally just being absent. I make excuses for him all the time, telling the kids his job keeps him really busy, etc., but they think he’s a joke.
I was thinking more about this, SS…about you saying your father didn’t abandon you so much as he was banished.
I think what happened in my marriage was that there were big spaces that my husband should have filled in the lives of our children, and I didn’t wait for him to fill them. There was a void and I stepped in to fill it, whether it was doing maintenance on the house, being the disciplinarian, attending parent conferences by myself, etc. I was not going to sit by and watch those needs be unfullfilled in my kids’ lives. He may look back and say that I pushed him away, but if I had let those voids remain I wouldn’t be able to look at myself in the mirror.
My daughter’s father abandoned her three years ago. First he moved 3000 miles away and then he stopped calling. I hear through the grapevine that he blames either me or my daughter for not staying in touch. I can’t tell you how mad this makes me. While I never want to talk to him again, I never, ever, told him not to call. He hurt my daughter (and yes, I say my daughter) terribly and I often worry what effect it will have on her being able to maintain a healthy relationship with men in the future.
However, what I do is talk to her. As others have said here, communicating is key and it is never too late. Tell them how you feel. Ask to tell you how they feel. Don’t be afraid to tell them that they are being “pricks” if the case warrants such a judgment.
After reading this diary, I know you have done a fine job. None of us are perfect. None of us have perfect kids. But, by loving them and talking with them and accepting them for who they are, you will give them the tools they need to be great parents in their own right.
Hugs.
My ex could make the drive or fly to see the kids but he chooses not to. But he has taken 3 vacations this year and driven to see his girlfriend’s parents who live further away than we do. He tells everyone that I stole the kids and won’t let them call or see him which couldn’t be further from the truth. I emailed him to see if he was coming to our son’s graduation and he said he had to be out of town that weekend.
You and your kids are better off w/o him!
My mother was the one who was always ripping on my late father and me. (I was my Dad’s girl.) And, to this day, my mother and I are not close. She lives in another state and we get along great! We write each other letters once in awhile and otherwise ignore each other!!!
Of course, she has been complaining in her letters that she is dying–that has been going on for 10 years now, nothing new. (That woman’s gonna live to be 100!) Then, if I don’t answer a letter, she calls me up, yells at me and I hang up! I refuse to give her my email address!!!!
All I can say is wow, Second Nature. I always look at the pictures you post and read about your kids, and hope that mine grow up to be as well-adjusted and happy as yours seem to be. And I have some of the same fears you do…because I was married to an alcoholic of the non-quiet variety.
Do people ever get over having a close relative that was an alcoholic? I know it took me a long time to forgive myself for marrying someone who turned out to have a drinking problem because of how it affected my kids. And I worry all the time about what kind of role model their father has been for them, and whether they’ll wind up repeating the same mistakes or not.
I guess all we can do is our best, and hope that it’s good enough.
(((SecondNature)))
You know, I think that as parents we take too much blame when our kids turn out badly and too much credit when they turn out well.
I feel like my kids have flourished in spite of me sometimes. But I have to admit that, especially now that my medication is kicking in, I notice little cool things about them and know that they got it from me! And that’s really neat.
{{{CG!}}}
“Do people ever get over having a close relative that was an alcoholic? I know it took me a long time to forgive myself for marrying someone who turned out to have a drinking problem because of how it affected my kids.”
A very simple way to “forgive yourself” is to put it into more realistic terms. being an alcoholic doesn’t mean your a bad person anymore than having cancer does. Alcoholism is a disease. Now we don’t like the behavior that it can bring on but that is a whole nuther ballgame. Drinking is but a symptom of this disease. Take away the alcohol and things change but only when the alcoholic takes responsibility for his/her life and is willing to do a self examination. Hope this makes sense for you.
Well…you are an absolurely marvellous mother and the way you’ve always described your kids – you done good.
Absent parents, alcoholic parents, or abusive parents…we don’t need to be them or let them effect us.
There was a point when men were a waste of my time and effort. Not to be relied on ever. In fact men were to to be feared as a source of pain. I was lucky that men on the periphery of my life cared and nurtured the angry and hurt child. Life changed when I let go of that excess baggage. Sometimes it comes back. Some of the worst fights of my marriage are over the ability to rely on my husband. There are still men, beyond my husband, that care and nurture me. Sometimes the hardest part is to step back and decide why I need someone else to rely on. I’ve also learned to let go of that expectation that someone would be there. I’ve learned to love for what the relationship is…not to put my expectations on someone else. This is part of the trying to change the other person theory – it doesn’t work. When I’m feeling depressed or vulnerable or hurt…it’s up to me to figure out why then address the issue.
-If you’ve told your children this story, they will understand more and accept.
-If you let them know we are each human with our own weaknesses, but we can grow past them, they will understand.
-If you find peace with yourself in the way your children have grown up, that they listen to you and respect your opinions, they will be fine.
We have our own demons, sometimes they are dark and haunt us. I’ve seen however that the love that we give to others protects them from our demons.
Just love them and keep talking to your children. They get it.
I really want so much to get rid of the “baggage” and live a life free of regret and self-recrimination. I think I largely have, but I recognize that there was a time in my life when I was not healthy and it happened to be the time when my kids were the most vulnerable. All in all I am the mother I wish I had when I was a little girl.
{{{SallyCat}}}
All in all I am the mother I wish I had when I was a little girl.
Now that is cool. π
Heh, it is cool and it’s something I just recently realized. Did I mention that my anti-depressants are the greatest thing since sliced bread? π
You answered the question as to whether you had succeeded with your children…and that sums it all up. You have.
Regrets and self-recrimination are like real life body image and the media. The media says we ‘should’ look one way to be happy…and very few of us do. Regrets means we didn’t meet “some expectation”…and very few of us do.
Here’s my little secret when I feel self-loathing, angry at myself, regrets, and all the crap that goes with it:
Go out and buy the biggest, bouquet of flowers you can. Put them the one place you spend the most time…your desk at work, your bedroom, by the tv…whereever. At one point it was daisies from the corner guy for 3.00 a bunch…at another it was a dozen long stemmed yellow roses from the florist by my office – every couple of weeks. Now it’s the most cheerful bunch at the grocery store. Be your own best friend. Buy yourself flowers – cause you are worth it. And it helps with the depression stuff too – being cheerful and all that! Oh yeah – tell people when they ask…”from a friend”. No other reason needed…and makes them a little crazy.
Take care of yourself cause you’ve already taken care of your children.
Big hugs and love to you {{{Second Nature}}}
You asked how you could prevent your sons from being like their and your father. To be honest, I would guess that you’ve already gone a long way toward that goal, by loving them ferociously. I hope that they see how they are treated by you and realize that is what parenting is about, not the neglect they received from their father. Of course, it’s hard for me to know without having met them… I suspect though that you know already whether they see you or their father as more of a paragon.
Love makes up for a lot of shortcomings, and wanting to be a good parent is at least half the battle, don’t you think? π
The rest you can sort of fake, make up as you go along.
Parenthood never ends. Even when they become parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, they still need good parents themselves, and that is a task that will still fall to you, and there will be times that you are no more sure that you are achieving best practice than you were when you first stared, bewildered, at your firstborn who simply would not stop crying and go to sleep even though you could find absolutely no reason for this behavior.
I probably should not even comment, not married and no children… but I’d consider letting your children read this diary, or an essay of about the same length (as a starter, not saying to limit what you convey).
My mother was very strong and more dominant in the household than my father was. Both grandfathers were long since dead, both grandmothers alive and very strong. One an Irish Dragon par excellance and one loaded with Southern grit… They were defiant! But there is an imbalance, even without depression and alcohol… stuff lingers, even in less troubled circumstances.
My father had had a very difficult childhood, in ways I never knew til after he died. I so wish he had said more to me. so that is the reason I suggest letting your children read the diary.
Good question, SN. My answer: never. Can someone ever be the parent they would want their sons or daughters to have? I feel all the time that I am not a good enough mother to my 17 (soon to be 18) year old son. If I had just done this, or that, he wouldn’t be having the problems he is having now–quite a few. To be a parent is to be vulnerable to everyone else’s judgment–and your own harsh judgments.
Do fathers feel this guilty? Is that why they drink, or work too much, or???
Human imperfection knows no bounds.
I don’t know if fathers feel guilty…that’s an interesting question. You’re right, as parents we always second guess the things we have done. My biggest regret is not recognizing the signs of depression and getting treated for it before it stole a decade of my life.
do fathers feel guilty?
I have no clue, but I would guess they do, but they show it in a completely different way. Often they DON’T show it, they hide it away and cover it with drinking or aggression or their personal cover of choice.
The best way is to lead by example. Hopefully it isn’t too late for this. Unfortunately I picked up many of the bad examples set by my parents. Strangely enough, my mother was the strong one, extremely angry, but strong. My personality is more closely aligned with hers, rather than my father. He too, while always present and hard-working, was far too easily bowled over by my mother. To this day, they are not really partners as much as mother and child. It was only recently that I realized how they abused us and posted about it here a few weeks back. We must always set a good example.
I’m interested in how having a strong, angry mother affects you as a man and as a father. Does it make you aggressive or passive? Or have you found the healthy median?
I’m both really. It’s interesting because my mother became like this, at least in part, reacting to how her own father (my grandfather) treated her mother. (poorly) My mother vowed that her life would be different, but my father was constantly belittled. I in turn reacted to how my father was poorly treated by here and became angry for this, as well as the physical and emotional abuse I recieved. I have matured and mellowed somewhat with age, but to some extent my mother created the same thing that she rebelled against. SN, you should really read this to better understand me and how this all came to be. This is not the answer to your question, I afraid. But I’m not quite like other men, even after all this I still identify much more strongly with my mother than my father. And I find that I can much more easily become friends with a woman than a man.
you’re already on the path to breaking the chain.
My only suggestion, and from context I think it may not be all that applicable, is that you not compare your boys to their father either in praise or damnation. Additionally try not to describe your father (and husband’s) faults as “male”.
A boy exposed to this will suppress a lot of natural aggression and other ‘masculine’ character traits such as sitting and doing nothing quietly (which can be a good thing, i.e. fishing). A boy who grows up this way will appear highly sensitive and emotive but will be prone to either outbursts or withdrawal because of emotional suppression and shame over what are normal feelings for a guy.
OTOH, I work with some ‘real’ dysfunctional families and, well, given your ability to write in coherent sentences and the fact that your IP address isn’t in a prison library- you’re doing better than you give yourself credit for.
LOL, thank you! I try never to compare the boys to their father, except that they look like him and I comment on that (in a good way!) but it still bugs them.
Growing up in a houseful of girls I find my boys’ masculine traits to be both puzzling and delightful.
Growing up in a houseful of girls I find my boys’ masculine traits to be both puzzling and delightful.
Have you told them that? Do you think they would like to know that? A lot of others here have stressed that communication is key. This might be a great opener to a great conversation.
from the “Prophet” by Gibran.
And a woman who held a babe against her bosom said, Speak to us of Children.
And he said:
Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life’s longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls.
For their sould dwell in the house of tomorrw, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
You are the bows from which your children aras living arrows are sent forth.
The archer see the march upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer’s hand be for gladness:
For even as He loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable.
You want the best for them. You want them to enjoy being men just as you want to enjoy being a woman. Let them tell you about what they need. I think men like to do whereas women like to think and talk about it first. That often causes a bunch of problems as the consequences can be ferocious. But encourage them to look before they leap if they can. And if they leap and it turns to shit or they fall into shit, encourage them to get up and try again. Even us women know what it is to get up and go do our thing when we would rather not face another minute of the job, the ratty little co-worker, or the financial problem, or whatever. I think men really have a hard row to hoe these days because there are no real maps about what to do or where to go. Encourage them to set goals, even if they know that they might want to change in midstream. Sometimes just writing down a goal can cause some rethinking about bits and pieces of ourselves.
You are a good mom to love so fiercely. I see moms who haven’t bonded with their kids, or who are so overwhelmed with life they have no energy left over. Go for it.
That’s one thing I worry about is that my sons have no maps on where to go because their father was so absent. My oldest son felt the need to take care of me from an early age and became a little comedian to make me laugh. To this day, at 24, he never fails to cheer me up if I’m bummed out. But I tell him I don’t need him to do that anymore, and I’ve apologized to him that he ever had to feel responsible for my moods. He says he doesn’t remember that, but I think he’s just being nice.
that is super. Tell him he is and was super. My grandson felt he had to entertain his little sister who was 5 years younger than he. He made trips much more pleasurable as we found out when he wasn’t in the car. But he loves his sister still, even though we told him he didn’t have to make it his life’s work to entertain her.
Maps are made up as we go along. Goal setting is one way as I mentioned before. No one of us has the answer for any other. Each of us has our own unique path to follow.
I can speak to this as a child of an absent father (though not an alcoholic), rather than as a parent. I think some of that distance was my choice as a child and actually turned out to be good for me. My sister, who is totally enmeshed with my dad is a wreck emotionally. So, I embrace the distance. Its what allowed me to think for myself and decide who and what I wanted to be. Not such a bad thing.
I have remnants of not trusting men though. I do real well in professional and social situtations with the trust – but it doesn’t get beyond that. After nothing but negative personal relationships with men, I’ve embraced the fact that life can be good being single. And if someone ever comes along that breaks through that – great. If not, my life is good as it is. I joke sometimes that maybe I’ll work out the relationship thing in my next life.
I just wish we gave the message to children more often that choosing to be single is ok. Life is big and there are lots of ways to live with passion and meaning whether in a relationship or not.
I understand completely. I am very comfortable and happy as a mother, and very uncomfortable in personal relationships with men. I’m remarried now and letting him in past a certain point just doesn’t happen. There’s always a little piece of me that holds back just in case. In case of what? Beats me!
I am probably going to make some awful generalizations, but I’d like to address the question of why I have trouble trusting men.
I think most men have been raised to think of themselves as the center of their universe – so – everything revolves around them. This is something I actually admire at times. I wish I didn’t get so caught up in worrying about other people’s feelings and could just take care of myself. Lots of times when I want to talk about myself with a man, the conversation winds up being about him – its like somehow his life is bigger than mine.
Anyway, I think that if I could find some kind of balance here, trust would be possible.
Well. . .my dear SN, you have to know that I am over here in I-De-Ho just grinnin from ear to ear, and you know why. Boy! Did I call it all those many months ago when we first had contact, or did I not!!!
I cannot begin to tell you how awesome it was to look up and see my sweet friend SN right smack dab there on the front page of Booman!!! Fabulous!!!!
I am not going to comment on the questions you asked cuz you all know I don’t know nothin about birthin and raisin no chillun. What I do know is an awful lot about love and trust. . .and those two things are so powerful that children that have them and feel them have a strong resevoir to draw on all of their lives. Your children have an amazing loving mother. And through that love I have no doubt that they have come to learn that each of us are individuals with our own shortcomings and our own strong points. There are no “all men. . .or all women. . .or all anything.” Learning to take others one by one as you get to know them is the only way to decide how much of a role you wish to have them play in your life.
I have no concerns about how your children will turn out. Of course they will make their own mistakes and choices less than what they had hoped for. . .all part of the learning process, but I have a hunch they are better equiped than most and will blaze their own wonderful trails as they go along. They will always have you and your amazing love to draw on and to rely on and that is something beyond measure. A very powerful gift you have given them.
I am so blinkin proud of you, SN! Keep it going girl!
Great big hugs and loves
Shirl
Oh, Shirl, you’re the most motherly non-mother I’ve ever (not) met!
To have you proud of me feels immeasurably good.
Feels pretty dang good to me too!
is probably a good sign — I worry more about the parents who claim they’re perfect.
I’d second the suggestions that folks have made to talk to them, share your concerns — they’re old enough now to see that you’re human without it totally demolishing your role as the responsible adult. Especially by sharing the depression (in your case) and alcoholism (in your ex’s), that gives them two things to watch out for, as both can be family-related (I worry about the Bush girls sometimes, because I know their dad hasn’t talked to them about his addictive past).
I’m fortunate to have had a great (if brief) relationship with my dad; his work schedule as a grocery clerk/produce manager meant that he was home at times that my mom was still at work. I was actually closer to him than I was to my mom — it was devastating when he died when I was 11, and I think I’m still dealing with a lot of those issues (as well as other stuff — one of these days I’m going to find a really good therapist that doesn’t cost an arm, a leg and a couple of toes). And though growing up I had some relationships with guys that really sucked, as I grew older I found men that I could trust, so everything sort of evened out. My mom tended to lump people into categories based on their race — I learned that didn’t work, based on my own experience, and I think I extended that lesson of treating people as unique individuals to my relationships with men.
Maybe the most important thing you can do for your kids is to stay involved in their lives, and if you see them repeating the bad patterns of the past, call them on it — if that makes you the “meddling mother”, so be it.
Thanks for sharing your life with all of us…we’re all richer for it… π
It’s nice that you had a good relationship with your dad and a shame that you lost him so early. I admit to being slightly jealous of women who said they were (or are still) daddy’s girl. My father couldn’t have been less interested in me.
My brother and I were both raised by our mother almost exclusively. We knew who our father was and we spent about 4 weekends a year with him even though he only lived 3 miles away from us (I tracked it with an odometer once). We were always invited to his house for our birthdays but never invited to their house for the birthdays of my father, stepmother, stepsister, or half brother. They were sometimes part of our family but we were never really part of theirs.
My mother had similar concerns with my brother. When she learned my brother still peed sitting down at the age of 12, she enrolled both of us in big brothers/big sisters. My big sister was a bit of an authoritative person and very outdoorsy (which I was not). While she was nice enough we never really had anything in common. But my brother really struck it lucky with his big brother. He was a single man and an engineer (oddly my brother turned out to be an engineer himself) and he was a great role model. Even took my brother to disneyworld when he was 17 or 18.
Did he start peeing standing up? π If only it were that easy to figure out what being a man is supposed to be!
As I mentioned briefly in my diary about growing up female, growing up male is just as hard. Gender issues effect us all and what we really have to focus on with kids is growing up human.
All kids need the same thing. They need at least one parent who loves them unconditionally. That parent does not have to be the best parent in the world, but that parent (or parents if they are lucky) does have to express love to the child(ren). From this many good things follow. Being able to talk openly and freely comes a close second. This includes being able to say “I’m sorry. I was wrong.”
Wow, Second Nature, what a terrific diary! π
I had a distant, then absent, father and an ineffectual mother, so I more or less raised myself. I knew how to make my own meals (when there was food in the house) and manage money (when there was money in the house) by the time I was ten, always had a paper route, started working real jobs when I was 14. I guess I never was a kid in some sense, certainly never felt comfortable around other kids, probably why I never had any interest in having kids. When I was young I expected things would be different when I entered adult life, but most adults (at least here in America) are still pretty much kids. Irresponsible, petty, self-centered, materialistic in the crudest sense, demanding to be catered to, expecting of others what they won’t do themselves, always expecting someone else to bail them out, and when that doesn’t happen they always look for someone else to blame instead of taking responsibility for themselves. (I find this true irrespective of gender.) America, a middle-class nation where the whole middle class never grew up–no surprise to me they voted for Bush twice. He is the pure extract.
I was responsible for buying my own clothes as soon as I started to babysit for neighbors, at age 10. A couple of the mothers took me under their wing and one of them made me a fancy dress (I never wore dresses, back then or now!) and would invite me over for lunch on summer days.
When I was a teenager I would often buy food for myself with my babysitting money and hide it in my room. The beginning of emotional eating for me that lasts today.
Well, I don’t know how to respond to your diary. I would ask what if your father had past on when you were much younger and really didn’t have a chance to understand he was not up to standard placed upon him by society.
I only recently understood how smart my father was, as he built a house that my mother lived in until she passed on. And for some reason, I get the idea that he knew that is where she would live. He worked two jobs one regular job and would do carpenter work at night as I remember going with him on those jobs. Just like you I can remember him drinking and taking me to bar where he played pool or to some “billards.”
But the opposite of you he passed on before I reached an age where I could pass judgement. So to a certain extent I would be jealous of you because had much more time with your father than I.
At the time of his death I considered my dad to be an amiable presence in the house, when he was awake, but not an authority figure in my life.
Only in later years when I learned the depth of what my mother went through with his drinking and continual diversion of money from the household to fund his alcoholism, did I start to resent him.
Through all of this, however, I remember my father as a basically good man with a horrible disease. I’m sure he wanted to do better for his family but couldn’t overcome alcholism to do it.
all girlfriends with divorced parents i went out with, had some very serious issues with men. mainly because they are trying desesperatly to avoid their family model (a failure), they fail in their relationship by put to much pressure on them and their boyfriends (want a perfect marriage and instead are not that patient).
1/ i do not think that trying to make your son a good father is a good think, you will probably fail.
my parents are still deeply in love after more than 30y of marriage, i never seen them shouting or whatever, and for my opinion, one of the reason that made their marriage a success is their high level of education (both Phd and MD) and more important they never had any issues with money :
both have money, their mariage contract is cristal clear and they do not have any joint bank account.
2/ money does not make happy marriage for sure but that helps tremendously !!!!
in summary and in my humble opinion, if you want your son to be a good father :
I agree about money! It can’t buy happiness, but if your basic needs aren’t taken care of your whole life is consumed just trying to keep a roof over your head and food on the table, and that leads to alot of tension in the family.
Once those basic needs are met however, money just buys you a fancier nest to be unhappy in.
Love your children with all your heart, all your soul and all your mind. More than this you cannot do.
Pax
That, soj, I am great at! Thanks.
Dear SecondN – it seems obvious to me that the main problem your children face is an inherited tendency to alcoholism, rather than any failure on your part. They should know that they may be genetically vulnerable to it and need to be extremely careful of consuming it. as you well know this is a powerful physical force that can completely ruin your own and several other lives.
My husband suffered with it for years. I hesitate to say we are beyond it, but I do believe that is true. This is the only subject that provokes me to evangelism. I was lucky to discover the work of a m.d. mom who lost her son to it and has created a treatment program that she shares freely. It can be found at healthrecovery.com – It’s worth checking out, you might gain some understanding from it. I think you may be looking in the wrong direction in this matter.
I worry about an inherited rish of alcoholism, just as you said. It’s the reason that, after doing some drinking as a teenager, I don’t touch alcohol. I have an addictive personality in other areas and know enough not to tempt fate with alcohol.
It’s lucky you were wise enough to pay attention to it. It’s heartbreaking to read that you don’t think your parents loved you. I think they probably did the best they could with what they had. Your Dad had a terrible handicap, and your Mom managed to deal with it. I’m grateful they raised such a thoughtful and loving woman.
Thanks Alice. As I get older I appreciate the amazing job my mother did to keep us fed and in clean clothes let alone that all of us are pretty well-adjusted and functional members of society.
And I never really held my father’s behavior against him because I knew he was powerless in the face of his disease. My mother has said over the years that it’s hard to compete with a ghost. My sibs and I mostly remember funny or warm things about my dad while of course my mom had to be the mean one.
She recently told me that he was the love of her life and it shocked me. I never once saw them kiss and they slept in separate bedrooms.
I don’t know what I could add to everyone else’s views. I was so fortunate to have a dad who was, and is, always there for me and my sisters. I’d like to be able to tell you why he is like that, but I can’t. He just is.
As far as your own effect on your children, it is so clear that you love them and are trying to do well by them. I can’t believe they don’t know how much you love them, but just keep telling them. And share this story with them. I really do think it will help them understand YOU.
My mother is one of four sisters whose father died of the effects of alcoholism when she was in high school. When we were kids she went through a few bouts with depression, although she never would admit it. But since we knew that she loved us with all her heart my sisters and I were able to get through these periods without really taking them personally. They were probably harder on my dad but he never complained. Not once.
A few years ago my sisters and some of my girl cousins from my mother’s side were sitting around and laughing about some of the quirks that our mothers have in common. We started comparing notes on the stories they would tell about growing up and how they NEVER told us about anything negative directly, you had to read between the lines to get the story. Not one of them had ever told us their father was an alcoholic, but of course we all figured that out pretty early on.
As we pieced together their story, my cousin who is a child psychologist said that a lot now started to make sense; that they were adult children of alcoholics who had fortunately figured out how to deal with their issues. We all agreed that none of them would ever admit that to us, which is sad.
My mother was (and is) a great mother. But now that we understand more of her story we really understand just HOW great she is. So all I can say is: share your story with your kids.
It’s really comforting to hear that your mother had bouts of depression and you didn’t turn into a quivering mass of neuroses!
I have a hard time focusing on all the things that I did right when my kids were young because all I can think about are the times I slept, the walks I didn’t take with them, the places we didn’t go because I was too tired or self-conscious to be seen in public and the times that they witnessed my physical and emotional meltdowns.
I have good relationships with all of my kids and I know they love me, but right now it’s hard because they’re naturally growing up and wanting to leave home and I’m wanting to cling to them and make up for all the time I missed. I’m getting better though.
Thanks maryb!
Love sure IS strange. My own self-centered explanation to that would be – of course they were meant to get together to produce me!
I’ve started about 6 replies and abandoned them all. But since this diary is scrolling away, I’d better say something now.
This was a wonderful diary, and I think your kids will do fine. I think the most important thing is that they know how much you love them and how much you’re willing to do for them. I don’t have any experience raising kids, but from thinking about how I was raised, I think you’ve done a great job.
My father isn’t terribly bad in any specific way (not violently abusive or alcoholic or anything), but he’s just an asshole. He’s selfish. He wants everyone to kiss his feet. He always has to be the alpha male. If you try to challenge his alpha-male status, he gets angry and tries to push you back down immediately. And he’s sexist in that irritating, patronizing way. Last time I was home my parents and I were sitting in the living room talking and he asked my mother to make him a cup of coffee. She immediately got up and went to make it for him. This is typical. It just burned in my mind.
When I was growing up I knew he loved my sisters, but not like he loved my older brother and me. It was separate but equal in the way that is never equal. He paid more attention to us than he did to them. We’ve all adapted differently to these influences. My brother is often an asshole. It seems that he feels that since he always had to be subordinate to my father when he was young, now it’s his turn and he wants people finally to start kissing his feet. He’s not as bad as my father, and he’s getting a little better, but he can be an asshole. My two older sisters still more or less seem to want my father’s attention. I haven’t talked to either of them about it, but they seem somewhat torn between trying to get his attention and trying not to want his attention. I think my younger sister is mostly just angry at him.
I’ve noticed that sometimes I get unreasonably angry and selfish. It’s as if there’s a scale that my father stuck in my brain, how much I do for you balanced against how much you do for me. If I feel it’s out of balance, I get frustrated. But I recognize it’s there and try to deal with it. My younger sister feels the same way. We talk about it.
About forming good relationships after having an asshole for a father: it’s iffy. My oldest sister is married and seems to have a pretty good marriage. They have two little daughters, and I think she feels a special need to make sure they don’t grow up feeling they are second-class citizens. My father, meanwhile, has “jokingly” asked when he’s getting a grandson. Asshole. My younger sister is somewhat suspicious of guys. She has great friends who are guys, but she got very frustrated with her last boyfriend. I think if any guy asked her to make a cup of coffee for him, she’d knock his teeth out. I’m gay, so at least I don’t have to try to unlearn my father’s example of how to have a relationship with a woman. But I still have to fight to ignore the scale in my brain.
James, what a thoughtful response! I have to go out for a while but I’ll be thinking about it what you’ve written. You seem very self-aware….I wish I was! π