Promoted by Steven D. Too important for words.
Many of you followed parts of my six-month road trip through the so-called “red states,” where I interviewed people about why they vote the way they do. The goal of the trip was to steer clear of politicians and talking heads and focus on talking to real people about a variety of issues. I still feel the media, both traditional and alternative, are in a bubble and ignore the voices of average people. Many journalists and authors have a tendency to write long diatribes about the Bush administration and its horrible policies, but they rarely quote real people. On March 20, 2006, Newsweek’s Howard Fineman and Evan Thomas wrote a piece called “The GOP’s Abortion Anxiety,” but they didn’t include comments from pro-choice Republican voters who are actually leaving the party. Finding them isn’t that difficult.
From now until the November election, I will feature interviews with a variety of people about a wide range of issues. Because I’m working on my book about my “red state” experience, I can’t travel too far from the Bay Area, but I will make a point of interviewing a diverse group of people. I also plan to podcast the interviews.
Conducting these interviews isn’t always easy, especially when I encounter someone who is pro-war, anti-choice, anti-gay, etc…but I believe they will help the left figure out where to focus their efforts and how to shape their message.
Last weekend, I interviewed a number of people at Juneteenth, the largest gathering of African-Americans in northern California:
San Francisco Juneteenth has taken on even more importance because the traditional black neighborhoods in the Western Addition and Bayview/Hunters Point have lost population due to the increased ability of blacks to live throughout the region due to rising incomes, redevelopment which displaced some residents and businesses and an influx of new residents into those communities. San Francisco Juneteenth is the one constant which dates back to the days when the Western Addition covered 120 consecutive blocks of 100 percent African-American households.
My first interview is with Ericka, a 32-year-old San Francisco resident who says she always votes. Democrats should pay close attention to her last comment about poverty.
What issues are important to you?
Issues concerning education and abortion. African American voting rights. Family and marriage. I believe marriage is between a man and a woman.
So you’re against gay marriage?
Yes. It’s my biblical beliefs and it tears down the basis of the family.
Do you vote for Democrats or Republicans?
I was a Democrat. Now I don’t agree with a lot of what they support. I’m still registered as a Democrat, but I’m voting more with the Republican Party.
Why?
Because the value system is totally different with Democrats. They’re more liberal. They’re for abortion, which obviously is the murder of a baby. And they support gay marriage which is breaking down families. Since my values have changed, my voting habits have changed.
Did you vote for Bush in 2004?
Yes I did.
Do you think abortion and gay marriage should be political issues?
Definitely. I don’t appreciate the fact that they’re trying to teach kids that homosexuality is ok. It has to become political because how else can we stand against it?
You mentioned education earlier. What about issues like education and healthcare? Do you have health insurance?
No.
What do you do for a living?
I’m an entrepreneur. I sell children’s clothing.
The Republicans are often criticized for using gay marriage and abortion to get you to vote for them. Meantime, they refuse to raise minimum wage or work to make healthcare more affordable and accessible.
I don’t vote according to party. I vote according to each individual issue. I don’t care if they don’t give me healthcare. I’ll never support abortion. I have two children and in the past, I’ve had an abortion and I’ve asked for forgiveness for that. I don’t think that should be ok for a 17-year-old.
Do you think the government should have made that choice for you?
Yes.
Where does it stop in terms of the government telling you what you can and cannot do with your body?
It’s not about the government telling you what to do. We vote. This is a democratic society. We vote for these measures.
Once the baby is born, should the government stay involved? If you’re going to ban abortion, we’re going to have a lot more unwanted children in this country. Who’s going to take care of those kids? Who’s going to pay for their healthcare and education?
The bible says there will always be poor people.
So gay marriage and abortion are your top issues and Republican policies on the economy and the poor don’t matter?
I’ve lived in this community all my life under Democrats and Republicans. My neighbors have been living in poverty for years and nothing ever changes.
The original post is here: http://storiesinamerica.blogspot.com/2006/06/conversations-with-black-voters-and.html
I hope to add new interviews every few days. The podcasts are coming soon.
Major depression coming on……
Let me get this straight.
She had an abortion. Now she has a NEW set of values which she wishes had been imposed on her by society. She wants to force all of us to live by those rules because she mistrusts her own judgement, doesn’t want to take responsibility for her choices, and/or hates feeling guilty.
From the sound of the fundamentalist talking points that glibly and thoughtlessly roll off her tongue, she has solved the problem by surrendering her mind and will to some hardline religion.
That’s her business and her right, but I resent the hell out of her imposing that religious solution to her personal problems on those of us capable of thinking for ourselves, making objective decisions, and living with the consequences.
It seems to me what she’s surrendered — or tried to — is her burden of guilt. By claiming that “society” should have stopped her from having an abortion that she now believes was morally wrong, she has redirected her guilt and responsibility to another source. It isn’t her fault, you see. It’s society’s fault for not stopping her. That means she doesn’t see her current view on abortion as hypocritical in the least, even though she had one herself (and doubtless did so for what she thought were good reasons at the time).
That’s the difficult conundrum with abortion — because one way or another, whether the woman makes the choice or has it made for her by “society” or by someone else… her boyfriend, husband, father, pastor, whoever… she’s the one who has to live with the results. Sometimes that means a huge sense of guilt for making what she later perceives as the “wrong” decision.
Freedom to choose means the freedom to make a choice you may later regret.
But who teaches her how to deal with regret? Or guilt? No one — because what she’s been encouraged to do is to put all the guilt and responsibility, the BLAME, elsewhere. And in doing so, she has distanced herself not only from her own experience and the painful feelings that have resulted, but from any empathy she might have had with the experiences of others who face the same hard choice.
It’s the sweetest relief in the world, to be told that something you did that you feel horribly guilty about is not really your fault. But it doesn’t really make the guilt go away… and so you feel compelled to judge others on the same issue, as if doing so will serve as some kind of restitution…
Okay, I’m getting a bit far afield here. But that’s what I hear from her words. And that’s the underlying emotional issue that must be resolved in order for her to change her viewpoint, at least on abortion and choice. It’s very personal, and it’s not a viewpoint that can be changed by arguing with her — because it’s not dealing with the real issue of HER sense of guilt over a decision she cannot change or undo.
Nor is it worth sacrificing the freedom of every other woman who faces that choice in order to win her vote. Nor do we need to. And that’s the message I wish the Democratic Party leadership would get into their collective consciousness….
That was wonderful, Janet. I don’t think it’s far afield at all.
You are so wise to see beyond the obvious and to root causes that can be addressed. I wish YOU were advising Democrats on how to speak to their natural constituencies.
My daughter is an unmarried woman in her early thirties; NOBODY speaks to her from either party. She loathes the Republicans, but doesn’t even get cynical lip service from the Democrats; she might as well be invisible.
Young, single women don’t vote. Most of them would support Democrats if they did, yet we let them languish in the wilderness as if they didn’t exist, because Democratic candidates are afraid to be Democrats.
People like this deserve what they are going to get.
I just don’t see why I deserve it.
So the one who is against abortion to the point of voting against her own needs… has had an abortion??? Oh.. but she has God’s forgiveness….
Another reason to seperate Church and State.
Or would that be Church and Hate
or
Church and Hypocrisy.
Please continue to recommend this diary. Remember, here at the frog pond, diaries promoted to the front page can still be recommended and make the recommended diaries list, too.
calvin, sadly, must agree with the interviewee about it not making a difference which party is in power. For many people, it just doesn’t matter any more.
When LBJ rammed his Great Society program thru Congress, he put real money in it and those program, flawed as they were, did make some difference. But, where are they now? Ooops. When we weren’t looking, the funds got re-routed to the Dept. of Defense. That magnificent black hole where the funds that could make a difference in people’s lives go and enrich the already rich.
And, who is holding anyone responsible? Nothing to see here, move along.
I’m not so sure I agree.
I hold Americans responsible. You know… Americans who can name off the names of the American Idol judges but haven’t a clue who is on the Supreme Court.
America – home of the lazy and the ignorant.
They think that voting for a politician is all they have to do every few years. Wrong.
The Party, the Politicians only have the power because “we the people” got fat and lazy and apathetic.
They work for us. they aren’t there INSTEAD of us.
This is such a troubling, sad story. I feel that this woman has just settled for what the religious right has decided is her fate. Likely what she perceives as her only inspiration is her faith – which has been defined by not only her local churches but also by the many extreme right tv and radio programs. To avoid sin is more important to her than having health insurance -this illustrates how “powerful” their messages are.
The story also tells me that our educational system has failed her. It seems she does not know our government was formed for our common welfare – not to write laws to punish.
She is exactly the voter that Rove seeks. We can’t ridicule her. Her story shows we need intervention programs that can counteract this mindset, like perhaps social interactions that become as important as church gatherings. Social events in which community role models show true democracy in action.
I absolutely deplore all the billions that Bush has wasted for his war and occupation of Iraq – and not even care if he cuts any program that could help this lady.
I love your stories of america and interviews, but with this one I have one itsy bitsy quibble.
I know it’s going to be a series, but I wish this was titled “A Conversation with a Black Voter”, because you only have one there. I am fighting, where I see it, the calumny that ‘black voters’ are uniformly religious, anti gay bigots and anti choice, which seems to be settling into conventional wisdom. Some are, of course, such as this very misguided young woman, but many are not, as I’m sure (or at least, hope 😉 your other interviews show.
If that isn’t an indictment of current politics, and the failure to stand up for our principles, I don’t know what is. Just think of how many places around the country one could find the same sentiments, regardless of the person’s color… for those well off, it doesn’t matter much if nothing changes, or if it only changes for the better (such as under Republicans). The middle class fluctuates some, but for the poorest… they are left to fend for themselves, mostly, regardless of who is in office (in general – there are some that make a difference).
As I always admonish my students, beware small sample sizes, as they are less likely to represent their population. Beware especially of individual cases.
Thanks for the feedback. I just changed the title.
I was planning to transcribe a few interviews, but only had time for one. I’m not trying to stereotype blacks; I’m doing this project to give people a voice and further the dialog.
Out of the 20 or so people I interviewed, most were Democrats who vote during presidential elections. They’re incredibly apathetic and believe all politicians are corrupt and too wealthy to care about people living in poor neighborhoods.
Also, none of the people I interviewed read blogs — one woman just got her first email address.
Thanks! And I didn’t think you were trying to stereotype anyone or anything.
Also, we do have a lot of work to do to get people to believe that politics are relevant to their lives in any way at all… the proof of the pudding, as they say, is in the eating.
One can have conversations like this with blacks, whites, hispancis. It’s a phenomenon we can’t ignore, & I have no idea how to deal with it in the 5 to 10 minutes one might have to talk with these people. Some vote rpub; many don’t vote at all.
There’s a kick-ass politically-minded pub out of SF’s black community, the SF Bay View if anyone’s interested in what’s ahppening there on the grass-roots level.
people like this infuriate me.
Scarier still is that this is in California.
What ticks me off is that I hear this alot. People who do things that I haven’t done who then tell me I must not do what they themselves have done.
Also the majority of Born Agains have done horrible, atrocious things. Who then say they are forgiven… yet I, who done none of what they’ve done, am damned.
So…you found someone who is incapable of real thought or analysis. Who effectively knows nothing about what is really going on in this nation.
Do you think all black Americans think like this?
I know more than a few and they sure don’t.
There have always been stupid people. The main point here is that she is not hearing any message of hope from the progressive community. If she watches TV all she hears is the fascist propaganda of the right as that is all that is on cable or local TV.
The real stupidity here is the failure of progressives to reach out to people like this.
Perhaps a word from this Black voter might be a bit helpful (or not).
The worst thing that can possibly happen is a 5-minute conversation between your average White liberal and your average Black Christian. Why? Because in that 5 minutes the White liberal will discover just how similar the average Black Christian is to the average White Evangelical Christians and the average Black Christian will discover just how much contempt the average White liberal has for religion in general and Christianity in particular. The end result will be that the average White liberal will walk away from the encounter saying, “People like this infuriate me” and the average Black Christian will walk away saying, “I was a Democrat. Now I don’t agree with a lot of what they support. I’m still registered as a Democrat, but I’m voting more with the Republican Party.”
Why?
Because there are two and only two issues for which the Democratic Party will fight to the death – abortion and homosexuality. You can be a good Democrat and be for or against the death penalty, for or against NAFTA, for or against gun control, for or against any particular issue, but when it comes to homosexuality and abortion it’s “My way or the highway” with the Left.
Many Blacks are opting for the highway.
I find it interesting how White liberals try to talk down to Blacks about sacrificing the greater good just because of homosexuality – it’s as if the contrapositive never occurs to them: they are themselves sacrificing the greater good by trying to force acceptance of homosexuality upon those who viscerally oppose it. What’s more important – the greater good or homosexuality? I’m sure that many (most?) White liberals would say that the two are one and the same, to which many Blacks would differ and say that if you must force acceptance of homosexuality upon us then we cannot work with you – it is a deal breaker.
Bottom line is this: 40 years ago Lyndon Johnson did what he felt was the right thing to do in pushing the Voting Rights Act through Congress, and he acknowledged at the time that in doing so the South would be lost to the Democratic Party for a generation. He underestimated the time frame but he was indeed correct about losing the South – it’s still crimson to this day. It may be that White liberals believe that the issue of homosexuality is a hill upon which to fight and die, and I certainly applaud the principled convictions of those would take such a stand, but understand that such a stand will come at a cost of several million Blacks migrating to the Republican Party. I have said it many times – if I ever become a Republican it will assuredly be over this homosexual madness.
God help us all.
If this is “food for thought” I assure you I’m still hungry.
I tried hard to to find a sentence, even a phrase of what you wrote that I could agree with but failed.
It would take a really long post to debunk all your arguments and lacking time (at the moment) I will just ask you this:
Why do you assume that this conversation could only take place between a “White Liberal” and a “Christian Black”?
How about a “Black Liberal” and the same person on the other end?
There is a considerable difference between the words worst and only – I used the former, not the latter. A “Black Liberal” – at least what I think you mean when you say “Black Liberal” – would simply be seen as lost, but that wouldn’t have much if any effect on the average Black Christian.
I don’t understand this.
A lot of effective communication is being willing to listen. I don’t understand what the dealbreaker deal is with homosexuality. It’s anathema to me, to consider abandoning friends & family.
I can understand the average anti-abortion voter’s motivations, even if I don’t agree. When “life” starts and what are the moral obligations of a pregnant woman or child — these are matters that can be debated.
I want to understand what it is about homosexuality. “Viscerally opposed” doesn’t explain it to me. Is it a visceral reaction against people who are willfully different?
It’s really hard to explain. I come from a fairly liberal black family, that doesn’t really have any problems with homosexuality (at least as far as I know). I’m not speaking for anyone other than myself, but I’ll try to share my point of view.
As a rule, I think blacks are relatively conservative on social issues because it’s always been perceived that assimilation is desireable if one is to be upwardly mobile (or in some cases, just to avoid being adversely affected) in this society. Consequently, I believe that there are many blacks who don’t feel like they have the luxury of being contrary, or “too different”, or to “rock the boat” because it could cost them a job, social standing, cause persecution of some kind, whatever.
As the right wing fundie/media/government ratchets up the fear of armageddon, “terrists”, and anyone generally not like “us”, fear of change becomes more of a factor, and faith proven by obedience to the church hierarchy becomes more important. Since the taboos against homosexuality and abortion are the flavors of the month, they’re now non-negotiable.
As far as the church is concerned, there have always been homosexual pastors, organists, members, etc. but it was usually on a “don’t ask, don’t tell” basis. I think homosexuality is a deal breaker because a lot of people are taught in church that homosexuality is a sin, and since their pastors are getting a lot of faith-based initiative $$$ to keep scapegoating the homosexuals, that’s what’s getting reinforced on Sunday morning. This is by no means exclusively a black problem, nor is the visceral reaction thing. I guess a lot of people would rather shine the spotlight on the supposed “evils” of homosexuals, rather than work on their own shortcomings.
We’re both white. I don’t understand how she got how she is. This has turned into a dealbreaker for us.
I came to Thanksgiving in 2004, and we were talking privately and I was getting all upset about Bush “winning” and all the homophobic votes — I thought she disagreed with her church about gay issues. I misremembered something or her mind got changed.
A couple of catch-phrases she used: She has a “personal relationship with Jesus”; [Homosexuality] isn’t “what God wants for us”. She was also assuring me that she thought hard, she made up her own mind. That if I was unhappy, Jesus is able to help.
… It’s so depressing. If I had known what she was going to say I wouldn’t have opened my mouth. But I misremembered, I was vulnerable, and I was looking for friendship. Last year, the November email was “thinks are going to be crazy, better you visit later” — I had already decided to skip the visit because of a friend’s old sick cat … and being afraid.
This year, I won’t have that excuse. The old cat didn’t last through spring, so my friend didn’t need Julie-who-knows-how-to-give-the-medicine so she can leave town. I don’t know if I can deal. If I’m a guest it would be rude to push the matter, and she has enough else going difficult in her life. 🙁
It is a visceral opposition to perversion – disgust would probably be the best description.
I don’t see how committed love can be “perverted”.
To my mind, “perversion” is about betraying trust or abusing people weaker than you. And you don’t have to be gay to be cheating.
Herein lies the problem:
The reason that Evangelicals and liberals have difficulty communicating – let alone agreeing – is because of our diametrically opposed epistemologies. If we cannot agree on how we can know anything – let alone the locus of authority – then we certainly will not agree on many issues, and those issues where we do agree we will likely disagree strongly about why we support said position.
Case in point: I support civil unions – for everyone. I’m guessing you would agree with that, but I’m virtually certain that you would not agree with how I came to that conclusion – you might not say anything about it since I end up on the same page as you regarding this issue, but you would never assert my argument for civil unions yourself.
Any discussion between an epistemological liberal and an epistemological conservative will inevitably degrade into a discussion of epistemology that concludes in the two sides agreeing to disagree. Therefore it is essentially a waste of time to try to converse about issues and positions with those of opposing epistemologies, at least anything other than, “I take this position on the issue, how about you?” “I take that position.” “Cool.” That’s about the extent of communication that is possible across systems when it comes to competing positions on issues. We can agree or disagree on “What” but we will never agree on “Why.”
Take care and God bless.
Americans need to be bigots. It is where their identity comes from. Not who you love, but who you hate.
But who to hate? Well, who is it permissable to hate?
“Flavor of the month” says it about right. Good phrase that.
Well, I’m not a White Liberal, but I believe it’s a hill to fight and die on. I believe in equal rights for all, freedom from bigotry and hatred, religious based or no; the right to marry the person you fall in love with and to have all the rights and responsibilities that go with that, as a citizen in this country; the right to not be discriminated against in the workplace or in housing and all the other things that were fought for, long and hard, by those same people who were the cause of the South being lost. That South (and North and West and East) that thought I was less than, and who viscerally opposed those like me, and thought that any marriage between me and a White person would be a perversion.
Luckily for most everyone, no doubt, I am not a political party operative, nor anything other than a voter also with an opinion, because if asked what we should do about feelings like this, my answer would be something along the lines of…
We welcome your help, your voice, your influence and your vote in the fight against poverty and injustice, and to end a war that is causing suffering for thousands; in working to build a society that values our elders as well as the youngest and weakest among us, that provides a living wage and a safety net, places priority on educating all our children, and making sure they have food in their bellies at night and shoes on their feet in the day… and many other things.
But if you are holding your vote hostage until we somehow come to the realization that the rights of others must be abrogated in order to win it, then well… so sorry, too bad, no can do. I don’t believe in this “equal rights for me and not for thee” stuff.
I don’t believe in this “equal rights for me and not for thee” stuff.
Word.
“Because there are two and only two issues for which the Democratic Party will fight to the death – abortion and homosexuality. You can be a good Democrat and be for or against the death penalty, for or against NAFTA, for or against gun control, for or against any particular issue, but when it comes to homosexuality and abortion it’s “My way or the highway” with the Left.”
I think you give the politicians too much credit. They will sell out your rights, my rights, AND my gay friends’ rights to get elected.
As a proud member of the left, this is a civil rights issue for me, every bit as important as voting rights and segregation. We have a long way to go on all the fronts of the civil rights struggle. We still have de facto segregation. People of colour, women, and gays are seriously underepresented in government and at the decision making levels of business. All of us are at risk, each in our own way, from the erosion of civil liberties.
My point is, NONE of us is safe if any of us remain victims of descrimination.
Our society has yet to fullfill MLK’s dream. Nobody can pretend that job is done, but we can fight on more than one front for the same principle.
We should all be able to live, work, and love in equality with everybody else. We should all own ourselves. Democrats may not be doing the best possible job of realizing an egalitarian ideal, but at least we WANT to, because we think it’s a good idea; you can’t say that for the Republicans.