Many of you might have noticed the section at the bottom of Dkos’ right column that purports to show “Netroots Endorsed” candidates. I’ve read it as a little tip-off that Netroots is on its way to being rendered meaningless, as it is claimed by a few of individuals who nominate themselves spokesmen. The consultant firm just launched by Chris Bowers, bonddad and thereisnospoon points another finger at that illusory Moon.
From the NRRSA sales pitch:
Unlike traditional D.C. consultants, we not only give you the hard data you need to win; we use the sort of creativity and idea generation that can come in today’s politics only from the netroots: by helping you craft messages that will inspire voters, rather than seek not to offend them; campaigns that will energize both the center AND your base, rather than assuage the base and hope for the best from the middle; and ideas that will help shift the window of debate away from the issues that distract the electorate, and toward the ones that really matter.
Putting aside the passage’s bewildering structure, the line in bold presents a fascinating conflation. Somehow, by being bloggers, three individuals are gifted with the “sort of creativity and idea generation that can come… only from the netroots.” Well this should be news to almost none of you: the creativity and idea generation characteristic of the netroots emerges from its massively decentralized nature. It’s not something a few individuals can abstract from the system and market. It is a product of the system – meaning the mass of interconnected humanity – itself.
What I find amazing is the level of hubris it takes to imagine otherwise. Amazing, but I guess not really surprising. I think it was the Cranberries who asked: if everybody else is doing it, why not us?
To be clear, I’m not criticizing these three for setting themselves up as consultants. I’m criticizing the idea that any individual can claim to speak for, or think like, the Netroots.
i just realized an alternate reading of the line i bolded: rather than claiming to generate ideas like the Netroots, perhaps the authors mean to suggest that the NRRSA will harvest the fruit of Netroots labor and sell it to candidates.
that seems a less likely reading, given their initial self-identification as “some of the best and brightest homegrown talent in the progressive blogosphere.”
the sprawling sentence structure makes it hard to grasp just exactly what’s being offered. i think, though, that i might have gotten it.
to paraphrase: as widely recommended bloggers, we can package you in a way that will appeal to the Netroots.
..that I had no trouble understanding the paragraph you highlighted, it made perfect sense to me.
I think the sentence you have bolded is really quite straight-forward: they are saying as bloggers with an established network and audience in “the netroots” they can tap directly into that decentralised mass of people from which to exhort and harvest ideas. They are saying they have the communication connection to the netroots, and, you can probably imply, have the ‘street cred’ to get “the netroots” – ie a dentralised bunch of individuals working on relatively common causes – to contribute ideas that are ‘netroots tested’ for campaigning etc.
Some could/would/will no doubt interpret this as essentially harvesting other people’s ideas for commercial gain. Well, capitalism does breed middle men like no other, particularly in the largest capitalist empire the world has ever seen.
Another perspective would be to take a pragmatic view of just how large, complex and fraught American politics is, and be glad that people like this are setting up to make sure that candidates do feel they have an easy way to access the views of ‘real people’ ie the netroots in enough critical mass to be confident to take those ideas and proposals that matter on as their platform for election.
I’m not American, and not interested in making a call either way.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/6/27/112840/626
it’s really amazing what happens when you ask direct questions. you find things like a May 2006 dkos post from DavidNYC soliciting…community feedback regarding netroots candidates! oh. my. gosh.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/5/7/185636/6139
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/6/26/192852/793
and your point in quoting the opinion of one random kossack is?
by the by, your link doesn’t work.
It works for me and for three other people I asked to test it. Perhaps there were problems at the Daily Kos site when you tried it.
He writes on “framing” issues on the web for DailyKos and MyLeftWing, and is a front-page editor at the Booman Tribune.
that was true until last week. He left voluntarily. He should probably update his bio, but it is not an error or embellishment.
it’s an error, but not an embellishment.
no. I don’t mean to say that, I mean to say what I did say.
instead of “is”?
no. it is not an error in the present or past tense. When he wrote it it was accurate, and therefore was not an error and is not an error.
of course we’ve no way of knowing when he actually wrote that particular sentence. it may have been written for some other context at a time when it was accurate. given that spoon just announced the site today, saying that he slapped it together in two days (as in, over the weekend), i don’t reckon the bio on that site was ever accurate. in normal parlance, that’s charitably called an error.
but, it sounds like you don’t care if he continues to claim he’s a frontpager here… and you know, i don’t really care either.
then i’m not following. i guess it depends on what the meaning of the word is is. for me, it means present tense.
Yep. It should have been updated.
Beyond that, though, Spoon might really prefer that potential clients not look at the reaction to his work on this site. Given a lot of what was said here, I think it is safe to say that he does/did not have his finger on the pulse of a certain segment of progressive bloggers – namely many of us here at BT.
http://www2.boomantribune.com/comments/2006/6/14/193535/635/31#31
If they dont say they speak for or think like the netroots they have no appeal as consultants. The netroots is becoming a very marketable commodity with the approach of the election. Sad but true.
I have had this sneaking suspicion the last few months that all the blogosphere is going to amount to (not much) sound and (much) fury, signifying nothing with regard to America’s being on the nutbag path set by George “W is For Wrong Track” Bush, come November time.
To me what it has come to sound like is a bunch of amateurs with computers who think they can be better consultants than the bunch of corporate-teat-sucking losers who turned the Democratic Party into Charlie Brown.
Which at first glance is true, since the Democratic Party’s consultant gang makes “Brownie” look like a genius of disaster relief, but when you look at it carefully… if you’re just looking for a way to sell Democratic Pepsi as opposed to Republican/DLC Coke… if it’s all about more cleverly rebranding the same old crap… if it’s about “crafting messages” as opposed to changing the direction of the disastrous policies… this America train is simply going to keep going down the wrong-headed, militaristic, environmentally destroying, inequality-creating, prison-filling, rights-abusing track.
amatuerish for sure… from form to content. the venture has exactly one selling point: the netroots; which again seems like little more than smoke and mirrors. i’d say smoke and mirrors outright, except that perhaps they can make some use of their experience at having diaries recommended. i’m going to keep my eyes peeled for press releases and so forth that employ BOLDFACED CAPS mid-sentence.
seriously, though, it’s an interesting development in light of the recent Jerome/Markos thing, in which it was very important for Markos to declare that he wasn’t, and wouldn’t be, a consultant. here we have popular bloggers openly selling themselves as consultants on the basis of their ability to in some nebulous way work the Netroots.
Hopefully this effort will just help to wear out the phrase ‘netroots’, which has already become commodified, gentrified, reified, and now, institutionalized.
I think for a lot of these people, the utility of “the netroots” was always about the magic of internet-based fundraising and basically nothing else. In addition to hob-nobbing at $1000-per-plate events, the politicos can simply stick a web page out there with a “click here” button, and bingo, more money rolls in. That was pretty magical for Howard Dean, it was almost an end-around the existing system of fundraising (but not quite).
People (like me) who have progressive politics were initially very attracted to what seemed like a “democracy opening” the net was offering: a chance to organize the left and to get (and spread) real news that the media doesn’t let you hear (like the fact that there is a single payer health care bill in Congress, and that the five and a half dozen decent Democrats have signed on to it).
Because of the presence of a very vocal progressive minority, the “netroots” has somewhat taken on the label of “progressive”, even when “leading lights” like Markos are calling themselves “war pragmatists” and bashing “single interest groups” (like NARAL) about as much as Karl Rove would.
Over the last year, I’ve seen more stuff that looks suspiciously like DLC “packaging” (or as our newfound consultants are labeling it, “crafting messages”) and less like the progressive realization that America is on a f-cked up path and needs to radically change the f-cked up policies, or face the ever worsening future for the vast majority of us.
It starts with things like the phony “fightin’ Dems” shtick that Markos was laying on us, which to me is as much pandering as the GOP’s idiotic anti-gay and anti-flag burning stupidities… when the GOP has succeeded with ease at electing numerous chickenhawks, draft dodgers, and war profiteers, why do the Dems need to run to the nearest ex-military guy, trying to out-military the chickenhawks? What’s up with that? Militarism is one of the (if not the most) hugely hugely f-cked up things about this country. We need less of that, and a lot more of everything else. And you don’t expect ex-military people to propose that.
One thing I’ve found to be both sad and amusing are the very well-argued progressive posts that detail (for example) the frightening growth in inequality in this country over time. What makes these posts sad and amusing is they almost always seem to come from the position that Bush invented it, and you get the feeling that if Clinton were President or Gore were President or Kerry were President a lot of these partisans wouldn’t utter a peep of complaint about these things. That’s even when they are showing the graph that says nothing changed during Clinton time.
As I’ve said elsewhere, Doug Henwood was writing this material more than 10 years ago, and he was doing it during Clinton time, which was actually quite awful as far as the growth of inequality. Clinton was a self-described ‘Eisenhower Republican’ who was giving the bankers what they wanted. I believe Doug Henwood’s thesis that if not for Monica Lewinsky, it would have been Clinton who tried to privatize Social Security, and many of the passionate defenders who argued against Bush’s Bamboozapalooza tour would have been nowhere to be found (as they were seriously absent while Clinton and Dick Morris were busy delivering Newt Gingrich’s end of welfare as we knew it)
Since Kerry’s loss, I’ve soured on all but the idea of finding real progressives like Dr David Gill and backing them. And I’ve gone back to mostly reading actual printed progressive news sources, like The Nation and The Left Business Observer.
one quibble: i can imagine someone back from Iraq opposing militarism. just think John Kerry when he came back from Vietnam (long before they rewrote his history to highlight his kills and ignore his eloquent and passionate opposition to the war).
If they picked the candidate because they were anti-militarism, and that candidate could even speak from having “been there”, that’s great! I’ve got no beef against ex-soldiers as a class.
It just smelled like the Dems were picking ex-soldiers because they’re ex-soldiers — like a “we’re for the troops” or a “see, we’re tough guys too” pander factor — rather than real thoughtfulness about the warmonger foreign policy and the enormous waste of human potential that goes into the war machine.
as Dem House leader or new hero of the Dems for telling it like it is on withdrawing from Iraq. (Your cautionary note about slobbering over military men who go Dem.) It was pointed out that Murtha is pro-lobby recently, in a TV appearance, eg, his lack of support for clamping down on the Congressional Lobby-Go-Round. And he didnt/couldnt deny it. The march of the military industrial complex, certainly, has stomped a well worn path thru his office and come out NOT wanting.
even on my bst, most optimistic day, I fing it impossible to imagine the Democratic party, (as currently constituted, and with it’s present leadership), capable of setting in motion an agenda to begin lifting us out of the catastrophic position both the rise of the Vulcans and our own societal denial have worught upon the country, and to lead us along such a path with principled integrity, political courage, and fortitude.
Having said that, I can’t imagine the GOP, (as currently constituted) or the demons in the Bush regime behaving in any way that supports either the fundamental principles of democracy, or that governs by adhering to the rule of law, respecting and upholding the constitution and serving the best interests of the country as a whole, rather than serving the interests of the few at the great expense of the many.
I suspect that in the end, the public is going to require a great deal more direct abuse from all 3 branches of government before enough of them wake up and finally realize that the massive swindle they’ve been the victims of for so long is about to destroy the very fabric of our entire society. I can only hope such an awakening mightoccur before the entire thing is lost.
Somehow, by being bloggers, three individuals are gifted with the “sort of creativity and idea generation that can come… only from the netroots.” Well this should be news to almost none of you: the creativity and idea generation characteristic of the netroots emerges from its massively decentralized nature.
I absolutely agree with your assessment. Furthermore, the censorship that KOS and Bowers are beginning to practice in earnest is threatening this very massively dencentralized nature. Therefore, if I were to become a counter-consultant (which I will not), I would advise the netroots participants to immediately abandon any site that begins to censor legitimate ideas and talk. That would end this insulting and degrading practice real quick I would think, and put some of these characters in their rightful places on the ideas scale.
from the sites to get away from conflict of interest problems. Just today as Bowers et al announce their consutancy, so Bowers is introducing the new netroot endorsed candidate on Daily Kos and MYDD at least and asking for support, cash and publicity for the person. How does that look however innocent it is.
Did Bowers introduce a new candidate today? And if so, have you got a link, or point me in the right direction?
Thanks
and viola…
http://www.mydd.com/story/2006/6/26/191421/650
god, i am so sick to death of branding. Netroots Endorsed may be among the most offensive i’ve ever seen. it’s one thing for a respected individual to endorse someone else; and then something else for a party to elect a representative. Netroots Endorsed is neither personally accountable nor in fact democratic.
Thanks kid :o)
de nada amigo 😉
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/6/26/192852/793
Spideleaf has a link to mydd, but I was looking for one from dKos. I skimmed over the diaries there and didn’t see it. As to whether it’s ethical or not, I don’t really have an opinion yet. But instinct tells me it can’t look real good.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/6/26/192852/793
you’re using a diary posted on the same day as the announcement of their consulting firm to somehow illustrate a conflict of interest that doesn’t even exist?
it’s one thing to offer oneself up as a consultant. it’s another matter entirely to make a go of it. are the three of them to do nothing again for fear of possibly looking bad once they get some clients? should they just drop all their pre-existing projects?
please show us where they claimed to speak for the netroots? as for thinking like the netroots…who can do that better than active participants in the community? how do you figure that three netroots activists (some with campaign experience) wouldn’t have a good handle on the mechanics of the netroots? my god, man, bowers, armstrong, kos et al are practically the fathers of the netroots.
my opinion of this diary:
Really? So MLK Jr. could be considered the founder of the grassroots? Netroots means one thing and this needs to be really understood…
Voters who are online.
That’s it. That’s what the “netroots” are. And guess what, they can be Republican or Democrat, or Independent or Green. They are VOTERS. That’s it.
So yeah, when Bowers, Kos and two or three other people decide which candidate will be “netroots” endorsed, that pretty much sounds like they are claiming to speak for the netroots, no?
And yeah, if you post a diary endorsing a politician as “netroots approved” and then start a consulting firm to deliver those “netroots” votes to politicians, well, you do the math in terms of perceptions.
It’s not a WTF moment, it’s politics. If they want to be “IN” then they have to be prepared to have their every statement, affiliation, motives, biases, etc. questioned. Those are the rules of the game. And if they want to play in DC they should be aware of that already.
of netroots is a little overly simplistic…by that definition, any voter who happens to surf AOL for pr0n qualifies and we both know that’s not what it’s about.
as for the claim identifying netroots candidates = speaking for the netroots, that’s what brooks et al would like to claim with all the “kingmaker” crap. but i don’t think that statement can be objectively evaluated without looking at what criteria are used to pick “netroots candidates.” i don’t know those details; do you? i do suspect, though, that those endorsements are a function of the community opinion as a whole. have you found any of the netroots candidates objectionable?
the boys (bonddad, spoon and bowers) never said the goal of their consultancy was “to deliver those “netroots” votes to politicians” – those are your words, not theirs.
It’s not a WTF moment, it’s politics. If they want to be “IN” then they have to be prepared to have their every statement, affiliation, motives, biases, etc. questioned.
sure…that’s the way the game is played. but why should we be doing the right’s work for them? you are correct that it is fairly inevitable that they will come under attack. but from their own side?
I disagree that it is simplistic. I may not have added in the one qualifier, e.g. online and politically active, but that’s a minor distinction since at its base it is about voters… same as the term “grassroots”. It’s playing a RW game to try and claim a special distinction for what qualifies as the “netroots” (i.e. someone who agrees with Bowers or Kos), not for casting the net as wide as possible to encompass all who participate in issues or causes online. Someone who is an active participant on the Amnesty International or Code Pink sites are part of the netroots as well.
As far as “delivering the netroots”… ummm… why would it be part of the title of their consulting firm if they were not implying to their potential clients they could? Otherwise what is their differentiating factor? Their USP (i.e. unique selling proposition)? There isn’t one. And since their tag says “A different kind of political research and analysis firm: of the netroots, by the netroots, and for the netroots.” it’s a bit silly to claim they don’t intend on “delivering the netroots” to these politicians by helping them conduct focus groups and craft their messages.
Couple that with the “Netroots Endorsed” candidates Bowers throws up and… yeah, they have some conflicts here.
In terms of the nominating process, I do actually have a sense of how that works since I’ve been paying attention. MWAC points us to a few threads on dkos which talk about how the candidates are chosen.
And it has nothing to do with if I agree with the candidates or not, it is the principle of claiming to speak for me without asking.
In terms of “attacks from their own side”… I’m quite happy not to be on the same side as thereisnospoon thank you very much. If that’s the best and brightest the Dems can offer then count me out.
the boys (bonddad, spoon and bowers) never said the goal of their consultancy was “to deliver those “netroots” votes to politicians” – those are your words, not theirs.
What do you think they’re trying to sell then?
how exactly is this ‘function’ calculated?
as for ‘the boys’ claiming to speak for the netroots – that sentence was referring to two different sets of boys. one claims to speak for the netroots, the other proposes to think like the netroots. the separation could have been more clearly put, but most everyone has seemed able to figure it out based on context.
i plainly stated that i don’t know.
as for confusion regarding “boys,” that’s why i specified which set i meant in parentheses.
Just for fun, while waiting for dinner to cook, a rewrite:
With our netroots experience, we will craft your campaign to appeal to a new, net savvy generation of voters. We will help you:
^ how they do that?
^^ for tips on how to do that, ask David Sirota
Anyone else wanna have go? It’s kind of fun.
good work!
this is what the netroots is all about: giving away good work for the profit of those who couldn’t do it themselves. it’s the exploitation superhighway.
seriously, though, you really are doing them a service. and it’s interesting to consider how much better that proposal could be in short order, given the actual power of the netroots. there might actually be an interesting consulting model in there somewhere.
You should assert your copyright rights, otherwise you will find these words on their website… a product of their ‘netroots’ thinking. 😉
I suspect they may be marketing themselves as both influencing the “netroots crowd”, and also seeing what sells – that is, what catches the eye – of the netroots activists. Because DK moves so quickly, it shows a fast-moving proactive and reactive face to the world, much like the stock market.
What the “netroots consultants” are doing, is not that different from the people who presume to tell others how to invest safely in the financial market. Bloggers in the aggregate have information, reactions to information, influence, and money, and these are valued to varying degrees within their own community. That makes for a valuable commodity to people who need influence, financial and human capital, and need them to gain more influence and power.
Things that devalue this commodity – undesirable issues, people, information, tend to be marginalized, or trivialized, or cut from the herd. And of course, what was once fast moving and full of energy runs the risk of becoming slower, less dynamic, safer. A surer bet, but with lower returns – perhaps.
I’m oversimplifying, but that’s the gist of how I see it.
i want to think about this a bit and respond more in depth, but for now i want to say that your post reminds me of what is so great about the netroots: the way that perspectives might enrich one another in unforeseen ways.
everything about the NRRSA project depends on implementation, rather than boilerplate press-releases.
IF they seize on a candidate, or slate of candidates and attempt to warp or twist opinion through manipulation or obfuscation…then your critique is absolutely on target.
IF they conduct themselves in an above-board manner, garner and distill input from a wide variety of sources, and use it to help craft messages that begin the long, hard task of shifting the political spectrum back to the left after so many years of rightward drift that the current “center” looks like most of the rightwing parties in the rest of the world, and IF they do it in a way that is open, participatory, and flexible…then great. Why not.
IF it is a one-way, top-down, “we pick the netroots candidate and you all support that candidate” – then bullshit on that…
IF they do it two-way, multi-modal, let’s have the community opinion and allegiance determine who is the “netroots candidate” – then great.
At the moment there are examples of both styles:
Hackett in the Ohio HOUSE race is an example of the Light side, Hackett in the Ohio SENATE is an example of the Dark side.
Cegelis vs. Duckworth is a BAD example of how NOT to do it. Casey vs. Pennachio is a pretty bad example, with some leeway granted for basic political and tactical disagreement…which should be ok given the breadth of the overall community.
McNerney vs Pombo, Courage in TX, Busby, Tester to some degree, Lamont, and a few others are relatively good examples where community support drove the system.
One way that I would try to do things, if I were running NRRSA, would be to NOT endorse, work for or promote candidates that the community hated.
Hypothetical: Warner wants the NRRSA to consult for them. However, the “netroots” hates Warner. NRRSA, if it wishes to have any relevance, credibility or serious impact, should tell the Warner campaign that he is perfectly welcome to do their research, promotion and messaging.
Another Hypothetical: Feingold wants NRRSA consulting assistance. The “Netroots” LOVES Feingold. NRRSA should offer their services to Feingold.
See what I mean?
has Jerome Armstrong as a consultant at the moment I think although the specualtion is that this connection may end soon. It seems Jerome never considered the netroots feeling unfortunately although there does seem to be a top down push that Warner is not really that bad.
Not much of one, at least not yet.
And I do not think it would matter much.
AS for me…and I really think my opinion is pretty standard among the “Netroots”…
I loves me some Feingold.
Given the rather large slate of potential primary contenders, I would break it down like this
Top tier “netroots faves”
(Gore – many fantasize about him, but I think it unlikely
Feingold – the man with the plan as far as most are concerned.
Second tier
Clark – loved by quite a few
Edwards – charismatic and well spoken about issues dear to our hearts. Lotta baggage.
Richardson – interest being shown, still and unknown.
Third Tier
Warner – good looking feller with a nice voice. Issues? not so much.
Clinton – past performances and present behavior have soured so many on her, and so many despise her, that she has not so much chance with the netroots.
Biden? Feh. MBNA has more money than god, they don’t need a representative in gov’t.
Vilsack? Nutsack.
As for me, given a choice between Hillary Clinton and Mark Warner…I would throw up in my mouth.
Given a choice between Clinton or Warner vs McCain? Blarg.
I’ll admit right off the bat that I’m not the most politically adept guy in the world, but I was reading Bowers’ annoncement at dKos and it seems that the candidate was picked by four or five or whatever small number of top tier bloggers, not the communities. So let’s say that this new consulting firm of first and second teir bloggers starts pushing these same candidates. Seems like a monopoly to me.
so let me ask you. what do you expect in the way of leadership from the bloggers? For example, would you give my recommedation any credence if I explained my reasoning? Would you give it less credence if I arrived at it in consultation with other bloggers, like Chris? Or more?
Not anticipating any particular answer here. Just asking.
I wouldn’t give your recommendation, within a group or not, any more creedence than anyone else’s here. I might share your opinion, or I might not. But it can’t be denied that there is a certain amount of persuasive power that comes with the ability to choose candidates, and them market them to the same people you are cultivating to have a narrower, and narrower political view.
This probably doesn’t make sense. I could explain it a lot better over a cold one.
i know the question wasn’t aske of me, but as i see it: individuals endorse other individuals, while parties elect representatives. the problem with the Netroots brand is that it’s neither an individual endorsement nor the result of a democratic process. rather, it looks like the former wrapped in the cloak of the latter.
if you endorse someone, that’s your endorsement to mean what it will to who it will. but, if you, Bowers, and whomever else endorse someone and then slap a Netroots Endorsed label on them, well, i think that’s misleading.
This I believe is the crux of the problem with the “netroots” label for me. If Kos, or Boo, or Chris, or whomever, decide to endorse a candidate, great, but don’t throw around labels that encompass me & pretend to speak with one voice, and then market back to me. It’s not only misleading, it’s dishonest. I didn’t vote on a candidate and 4 or 5 bloggers are not the ‘netroots’ or ‘progressive blogosphere’. Doesn’t matter if I agree with the choice or not it’s the principle.
BTW- I’ll send this thread on to Chris for his consideration. I am not currently involved in any joint efforts towards endorsements. And I am not currently consulting for anyone. But, maybe that makes me more open to ask for people’s thoughts on these issues.
After all, I would consider any income opportunities that came up, just like anyone else. But I sure would like to have an idea of what the implications might be of me taking on opportunity of one kind or another. And also, what I might or should do, disclose, reveal, refuse, etc.
Thanks, I appreciate that.
btw, I didn’t mean to imply you were consulting or part of the netroots group, just that you have as much of a right as anyone to choose to endorse a candidate. The other parts of it apply to the ‘netroots’ guys.
And for sure, I wouldn’t begrudge you the consideration of a paid gig, but I also know you would ask questions and define boundaries. Which is why you’re a cool dude.
Exactly
Booman is, afterall, a cool dude :o)
I have to tell you I am appalled that Markos, et el are claiming to speak for all of the “netroots” and the “left”. I will go back and try to find an article about dkos/markos yesterday that absolutely pissed me off. Alot of the writers at dkos write what I feel/think but Markos and I are 360 degrees apart in our political thinking. Right now he is taking every opportunity to “speak for the netroots” since yk and Imho, he has no right to go along with how the media is portraying him as “our” spoesperson given his real views.
problem with McNerney, a mathematician with expertise in alternative energy, specifically wind power?
Or Jon Tester, an organic farmer?
Or Ned Lamont, a good solid progressive literally boosted into the race by blogger efforts and ideas?
Or Patrick Murphy?
Or Sestak?
Or Busby?
I can see some problems with Webb, Massa, and I do not know much about Burner or Stender or Hodes.
Do you realize that all of these candidates have large and active online organizers, activists and volunteers? That they have gained support and garnered resources from very, very large online democratic and Democratic organizations, most of them long, long before they were EVER on the radar of Kos, Armstrong, Bowers, and others?
These are not choices by fiat handed down on high from King Kos…
The way I see it is this, there are two problems.
Problem 1 is that the Kos, BooMan, MyDD, MLW worlds are becoming a bit too self-interested and self involved and are not paying attention to the large, active, engaged, and extremely “grassroots” stuff happening at the state and local levels. Because we do not pay close enough attention, we do not see that these candidates are coming from somewhere, not just out of the forehead of Kos, like Athena from the forehead of Zeus.
Problem 2 is directly related to BOTH problem 1 AND to the problem you point out and are reacting to, which is real and needs to be thought over….the way that these candidates are being introduced to our respective communities is not particularly effective or conducive. And the decision to back a particular candidate is not one that is made with any particular rhyme or reason attached. In some cases it is a decision made by acclaim, like Lamont, Busby, Chandler, Herseth, Salazar (never mind that we may feel some regrets about that acclaim later)…and in others, like Duckworth/Cegelis, like Casey/Pennachio and so on and so forth, there is a lot of confusion, conflict and bad blood.
These two problems are eminently fixable.
It requires a bit more listening and paying attention on everyone’s parts, a but less carping and snarling, and fewer high-handed proclamations.
RD, I do see that. Which by definition means they are ALL netroots endorsed candidates. Hence the problem with Kos (and the 3 or 4 others) claiming one of them for the whole netroots.
And in terms of problems with the candidates, that’s a different story entirely. And yes, I have a few issues with Webb and Massa and others, as well as Casey, and the hatchet job on Hackett, and Warner. But that’s a different, albeit related, issue.
No, I never said anything about the blogosphere activists supporting anyone they damn well please. I have a problem with someone that claims to speak for the progressive netroots and as I said, is being hypocriticaal because he as far more centrist than progressive. Period. I appreciate your opinion but please do not put words in my mouth. Thank you.
Booman, your integrity shines through like a beacon.
As for me, I have absolutely no problem with people like Kos, Bowers, or whomever floating the idea of a candidate around, for whatever reason.
Maybe they like the candidate, maybe the candidate wants to hire them and they want to see if they can deliver big for their pick, and so on.
All that is just fine.
And, let’s be honest: while it is very, very clear that these communities are comprised of, driven by, and dependent upon the free intellectual and research labor of thousands of people acting in concert in a self-organized fashion, the framework for that self-organization was vastly assisted by the efforts of people like Markos, love him or hate him.
I was a regular denizen of the NYTimes discussion boards, and before that, the CNN discussion boards. I went from there to the blogs as a result of the MediaWhoresOnline site…I have watched the growing voice and power and reach of people like me – just normal people – with great excitement AND great apprehension….I have and continue to disagree with Kos’ political stances on a wide variety of issues…but the infrastructure he helped popularize is very, very important.
So, due credit, and perhaps some added weight of opinion should be allowed…whatever.
BUT, it is just as true that without the mass participation of thousands of really dedicated, really smart folks of ALL political stripes, DailyKos would look like nothing at all, except as a historical curiosity over at archive.org.
But that label should not be slapped on any person until the community has actually agreed to have their labors directed toward that candidate’s success.
Bowers likes McNerney? So do I! McNerney is great, and I hope like hell that he beats the everloving shit out of that slimeball Pombo.
But before I lend my labor to McNerney as a part of a broader community, I want a say in whether that support should go exclusively to McNerney, to Courage (in TX), or to a split between the two.
It seems to me that this whole issue could be defused before it ever really gets nasty by the addition of one or two very, very simple steps before “endorsement” happens.
the “leadership” by the proprietors of the various blogs should consist of the following:
These scoop style blogs are more about community from what I see. There are plenty of less community style blogs that theoretically rely a lot more on personality cult or top down stuff. It would be good if recommendations came from the community either without guidance or maybe by floating a trial balloon with reasoning after all he or she who administers the community site is also a member of the community!
I would rather here what you felt yourself as an individual booman as I actually have a lot of time and respect for you. If that opinion is changed or tempered by interraction with others who consider themselves leaders for me that would devalue the opinion as I may not know who the people are or may not have the level of respect for them that I do for you. Of course those others could be or opt to be part of this community if they so chose. The other area that is strating to worry me a lot is that there may be people with financial incentives trying to influence not just little commenters like me but also through bizare google groups other bloggers.
That is just my honest opinion as one of your readers and occaisional commenters from a long way away.
Let me add a little here to make it clear where I’m coming from. It’s the ideology. The message. I feel like the left wing (what used to be the center) of the democratic party is being marginalized. At the same time you have a certain small group of top tier bloggers that are being recognized as the “netroots”. Even though they only represent a small part of the online political opinion. Seing this consulting firm, and presumably the ones to follow coming from the same group that is shaping the message, seems dangerous to my ideals, which btw, are pretty mainstream.
Seing this consulting firm, and presumably the ones to follow coming from the same group that is shaping the message, seems dangerous to my ideals, which btw, are pretty mainstream.
I find it unbearably depressing to discover that one of the main products of the political blogs appears to be a whole new crop of consultants who are indistinguishable in methodology and ideology or lack of the same from the old operatives and about as effective too.
It was sad reading the thread where spoon announced the thing yesterday. There were actually people fishing for a job with him in the comments. I had this naive belief that we were all concerned adults. That thread was like romper room, inside the beltway style.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/6/26/143022/190
It was sad reading the thread where spoon announced the thing yesterday.
Reading DK has become like listening to Rush Limbaugh. Thank you and MWAC for doing it so I don’t have to. I should warn you that some of the more pathetic front pagers there have taken to scrubbing some of their excesses and so it’s best to archive anything you think might become useful later.
One of the main lessons I’ve learned from blogs is the discovery that a good deal of what’s wrong with the political parties, their politicians, governance and political dialogue in this country are the men and women of the political operative class. The asshole to decent human ratio is about 20 to one. They are incapable of honest, straightfoward conversation.
i agree. the old saying has it that power corrupts, but i like what Frank Herbert said on the matter: power attracts the corruptible. it is in this light that i’m not at all surprised to see spoon setting himself up as a consultant.
Colleen’s Ratio: The Asshole to Decent Human Ratio is 20:1 in the Political Operative Class.
It’s right up there with Murphy’s Law.
Trademark that one, it’s a classic.
MWAC’s Corollary: Colleen is an optimist.
Unfortunately is getting more and more difficult to comment on certain subjects on DK unless you follow the line.
He is actually an excellent, amazing, and very, very progressive guy.
You should check him out. And the pick did not come out of nowhere – he has massive online support from a wide, wide variety of places, he defeated the Establishment Pick in the Dem Primary with DFA and other grassroots support, and he is an alternative energy expert.
So, while he was NOT explicitly “endorsed” by the Kos/MyDD/BooMan/MLW circle of scoopish communities, he WAS explicitly endorsed by DFA and several other progressive online groups.
Take a look, and let’s try and add that extra step into Bowers’, Kos’ and others’ decision-making procedure.
I agree that if netroots endorsed brand is to continue, then the selection process needs to become both more democratic and transparent. In fact what netroots endorsed even means needs definition. However, I still think that those receiving financial incentives from candidates should not be involved in the selection process that involves at least anyone they are receiving money, gifts etc from, and at best I would like to see them out of the selection process completely. I personally do not want to see any of the conflict of interest/lets make a quick buck problems that dog politics raising their ugly head in this new community. This may be too idealistic for many but I aint in the win at all costs camp even if winning means betraying all of your ideals.
you need to be certain that you are paying attention to the much broader and wider blogging/online organizing communities that are out their pushing candidates, working for candidates, and so on.
The Kos/MyDD and associated circle of blogs and communities is not the be-all and end all.
For example (and please do not take this as a hostile attack!!) but one implication of this diary and some of the comments is that Bowers, Kos, Stoller, and others are simply grabbing some of these candidate names out of thin air, proclaiming then “netroots endorsed” and expecting us to jump at the chance to empty our bank accounts into their campaign coffers.
However, let’s look specifically at McNerney as an example: McNerney has a very large online organizing and effort that is, for the most part, not broadly recognized or read on the Kos-type and Kos-connected blogs.
I have been received numerous email alerts, messages, and invitations to contribute intellectually, activist wise, and monetarily to the McNerney campaign for literally months.
He was chosen as a DFA progressive grassroots type by popular acclaim. He’s been gathering a lot of support from moveon type groups based on popular support, he’s been getting a lot of grassroots attention….but NOT much over on Kos and Bowers and the others sites.
Now, what if Kos, Bowers or whover the putatative “deciderer” is went looking around, and found out about this guy McNerney that EVERYONE ELSE in the progressive community and blogosphere has been getting excited about, but who has not been getting much attention at Kos or MyDD because we’re too busy with a different candidate, to busy navel gazing and fighting about pie, censorship, purity, metajesus, or whatever…so they thought that they would introduce this popular, progressive, interesting candidate to the communities that frequent their sites…
Now, did they do that “introduction” in a way that absolutely invites criticism and drives a lot of dark suspcisions….but the case can and should be made that there is an innocent explanation…one that needs addressing and an issue that needs fixing, to be sure…but not a nefarious plot.
and transparency being needed.
By the way I dont think I have ever said there was a nefarious plot. My concern has always been over how things look. We have to remember the real world of politics where you not only have to be clean but be seen to be clean.
In the last week or so there have been more than a few missteps by some of our blog “leadership”.
I do not really want to get into the details of individual candidates as that is not my point. I am sure there are plenty of good progressive candidates out there and I understand McNerney is one.
What mis-steps?
Are you talking about the “mis-step” of being targeted for a coordinated, falsified, and blatantly misleading smear campaign based on a combination of guilt by association, innuendo, and assertion with no basis on fact?
that mentions that little issue gets labelled a troll and trampelled all over by the herd. Yes there were missteps which we refuse to admit. The keep it silent idea was just plain dumb. The notion that Jerome would come out fighting in a few months when he had a settlement banning him from this was somewhat hard for any thinking person to believe. That Jerome seemingly had an SEC investigation going on while working on the Dean campaign also shows a bit of bad judgement.
The accusation that you pay Jerome and get Kos I havent got much time for but just saying nothing was not going to help. While most on the left go on about some conspiracy, and/or refuse to talk about the Jerome issue the details of the SEC case and details of Jerome’s commenting on now worthless stock are being touted on the internet. At the same time the exposure of MyDD as originally a rather bizarre astrological site for predicting financial movements is making Jerome look like a total wacko. It also aint doing our reality based stuff a great deal of good either.
If all of this was about a bunch of rethug bloggers what would we have done? This is the real world. Yes there have been missteps.
you lay out are most certainly missteps.
Do you have any evidence that anyone other than Jerome was involved in those actions?
Do you have any evidence that anyone other than Jerome ever knew about any those issues?
Because until you know, until you have that kind of evidence, it is not particuarly cool to smear Kos, Bowers, Stoller, or any of the other peripheral characters.
As for Jerome? Well, 1) He’s got his problems to deal with, and let’s see what happens…I didn’t particularly like or trust Jerome after the whole Hackett nonsense and from before that. 2) He’ll have to face the music on what he’s done (or not done – he is barred from discussing the issue at all). I could care less. If Warner suffers from hiring Jerome, I could care less.
But if alleged wrongdoing on the part of Jerome Armstrong is used to smear by association any number of people who have worked with him, conversed with him, agreed with him about a policy, a candidate, or an action?
Not so much respect from me on that score.
Surely you see where I am coming from.
And please note that I am not labelling you a troll, nor am I trampling on you.
I am disagreeing with you in a very direct, open, and (sorry) aggressive way.
I am not suggesting anyone outside of Jerome was involved in or knew of these actions/allegations.
The missteps I am listing are quite clear, and yes some are directed at Kos and maybe other so called leaders for as I (and some others see it) making tactical errors in dealing with this situation. I really do not know who made the silence decision. However, this remains a criticism of tactics not an attempt to label as guilty by association.
I like you do not agree with smearing by association. However, in the big wide world of politics this a common practice, and we have to be vigilant and react quickly and in the right tactical way to minimize damage caused by guilty by association attacks.
I hope this clears up where I am coming from.
Fair enough.
i’m not implying a nefarious plot, nor am i implying that they’re grabbing names out of thin air. i’m saying that Netroots Endorsed implies a largescale democratic process, and so far as i know that’s not the case.
In the case of McNerney, it is, in fact, the case that he has garnered a LOT of broad, activist, grassroots, netroots support in a very open and democratic way.
The problem is that he got little or no exposure in our small corner of the broader netroots universe.
That does not mean that his selection was undemocratic, it means that for whatever reason, we were not payng attention.
One of the primary responsibilities of our “leadership” should be the facilitation of better communications infrastructure and the “bringting to the attention” of issues or people or happenings that could be of import to the commmunity.
Doing that is good…the WAY that they did it in this, and in several other cases is not so good.
when i say democratic i mean it literally, as in actual voting. if kos wants to support someone, he can go right ahead. if bowers wants to go with him, great. there’s no need to slap a nebulous and very possibly misleading label on whatever candidate they choose to support.
if they really want to use that label, then they might define a democratic process to give it a limited, specific, meaning.
I think, as I said above, that all they would need to do to get the bulk of the community behind them on this particular front would be to insert a voting/vetting/election phase into the whole “netroots endorsed” business.
Survey Monkey, internal software, a blogpoll, whatever.
Easy to do and lot’s of pros….not so many negatives.
agreed.
i hafta say, i’m not sure there’s any race more important than defeating pombo. the man is a walking natural disaster.
does anyone honestly object to mcnerney as a netroots candidate?
Cedwyn, if this was meant for me,
I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with the qualities of any particular candidate. I’m certainly not objecting to MnNerney. What I’m questioning is 1)how are these candidates selected, and if by a small group of bloggers claiming to speak for the netroots, then yes I object to the process, and 2)a consulting firm that consists of some of the same bloggers turning right around and marketing that, or whatever candidate chosen that way, back to the people, especially at dKos, but not limited to dKos, to the community that is clearly being shaped and chiseled through the narrowing of the message, and jettisoning of bedrock liberal ideals.
You don’t see a conflict there?
but you picked up on that.
; )
i really just wanted to throw the question out there. red dan’s comment right here pretty well sums it up for me:
http://www2.boomantribune.com/story/2006/6/26/184037/590#80
with the following addendum:
i understand the concern/point about a handful of bloggers deciding the netroots endorsements. but i think it is a premature criticism unless we know HOW they go about doing it. ok, so the candidates aren’t appearing for Q & A as in the past…or are they (see john laesch’s diaries) and it’s just not being touted as run for the netroots endorsement? for all we know, they do look at things like community sentiment, etc.
the only blogger included in both the consultancy and the netroots candidating is bowers. bonddad and spoon are both just community members, as you and I. so, whatever standard disclaimers need to apply for a blogger on a politician’s payroll would hold. but as long as they do hold, i don’t see any conflict at all.
marketing that, or whatever candidate chosen that way, back to the people
i don’t think that’s what NRSSA plans to do. they are merely offering their consulting services, with no idea which candidates, if any, might hire them. it is not their goal or intent to latch onto and represent the netroots endorsed candidates. and they would still need the aforementioned disclaimers if they want to get our attention for a client.
* hugs *
It is not about who the candidate is but how they are picked. If the netroots endorsed brand is to be used then there should be some kind of netroots vote. However, first we better work out who the netroots are and give them full access to actually not only vote but also nominate.
I also strongly believe that those with a financial interest in a candidate – ie consultants – should remove themselves from the process and ideally remove themselves from the community based sites. In fact I would actually respect the decision of a site “owner” to do this as it an ethical decision. To become a consultant while running say a site with lots of hits oper day etc worries me deeply as their are too many implicit messages of I hired you to deliver those guys/ I realize I have been hired to deliver as much as possible of my community. There are obvious conflict of interest problems to my mind.
I see that ‘thereisnospoon’ claims to be “a front-page editor [sic] at the Booman Tribune”. I thought that had come to an end?
He also says he writes on framing issues “for DailyKos and MyLeftWing”. If you say you do something ‘for’ someone or some group, doesn’t that imply that they have asked/commissioned you to do it? It’s almost suggesting that he’s a front-page writer.
It would be more honest to say that he writes on certain things ‘at’ certain blogs (ie no one asked and no one stopped him from doing so as a diarist & commenter).
Just my take on the subtleties of language…
that kind of information makes you a lot more saleable as a consultant even if it is playing with words to say the least.
Booman addressed this in a comment above.
Thanks, super. Saw that immediately after pressing ‘post’, as sometimes happens. My point about his status at dKos & MLW remains.
yeah, i picked up on that too. but wait a minute… by that standard i’ve done writing ‘for’ a whole bunch of publications. i’m doing some right now!
Simon Malthus writes on identity issues for the Booman Tribune.
That is a sales pitch?
I would offer the research and advice services that this group appears to be selling. I would tell candidates how to approach the politically active weblog community, what things work (e.g. hiring a staffer to interact with the bloggers) and what things don’t (hit-and-run appeals for money, one-way communication from On High to the Great Unwashed). I would give them an assessment of what sorts of positions play well with the netroots, at least the part I’m familiar with (leaving Iraq, universal health care, universal education, accountability) and what positions don’t (piratizing Social Security, blind faith in the administration).
In other words, I would tell them stuff they could learn by doing their research on the internet, and charge them a huge fee for it, and I would give it to them without the baggage of being a DC insider, although I would have the admitted baggage of my own opinions and experience. In other words, I would do what pretty much any consultant in any field does.
I would NOT pitch a candidate as “netroots endorsed” or any similar silly label. The only way to get a netroots endorsement is to earn it, and you earn it by listening to and interacting with the people you want to vote for and support you. If I did my job right, the average blogger would barely know my consultancy exists. That part should be easy, since outside of BT the blogosphere barely knows I exist now.
There. That’s my consultant pitch. I am now available for hire at thoroughly unreasonable rates. 🙂
omir, I wanted to email you about a technical issue, but i am not sure how to parse your dots, cats, and dogs in your email address.
Hm, maybe I wasn’t as clever as I thought I was. Substitute “dot” for “dog” and “at” for “cat,” and leave out the dashes.
i’m off to DL. I’ll email you later tonight or tomorrow morning.
I have to snark. Sorry, it’s been holed up inside me since you posted your diary… here goes, and again, apologies for my lack of self control…
Who is this Netroots Person?
Batman.
… do I win a prize for the right guess?
as there have been no other guesses, the prize is yours!
This isn’t really real is it? It’s April Fools right? My favorite part by helping you craft messages that will inspire voters, rather than seek not to offend them, Spoon did inspire rather than not offend…..he inspired anger, rage, lawn mowing, power walking, long posts and longer replies to his posts, partying till the cows came home when he got the hell out of Dodge. This is sort of obnoxiously hysterical in a totally out of touch with reality way!
sadly says it all
e-mails are circulating taking the piss out of Brown re his astrological consultant. This aint funny. What is going on? If people want to go on to become consultants they should at least consider their pasts before planting ticking bombs in campaigns.
A lot of Ohio bloggers are mad at Jerome and Kos because they flipped on support for Hackett after Jerome became Brown’s paid consultant. So, yes, they are paying back Armstrong for that. I hope Brown wins, though.
I hope he wins too, but he could do with a swift firing of that wacko as he is going to be ridiculed if he keeps him. Even though MyDD seem to have expunged some of the stuff from their site it is still all over the internet and it really reads as though it came from a total looney, and the stuff on 9/11 could be very damaging.
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