Everything looks bad for the Republicans and there is not much they can do in the few short months before November to turn things around. But there is one thing that they can seize on that will divide the left and cause it it to turn on itself. That thing, is Israel. I am not even going to speculate about elaborate conspiracies wherein the Israelis launched an attack on Lebanon in order to save the Republicans bacon. It could be the case, but it doesn’t really matter. What’s matters is that the Israelis have acted and the Dems are on the defensive. The Weekly Standard lays it all out.
For their purposes, they note that the Daily Kos front pagers are not discussing the issue:
Combined, the half dozen front-pagers have written exactly one post on the subject. And that post, authored by Moulitsas, simply declared that he wouldn’t write anything further on the subject. So while the most important story of the year develops, the nation’s leading progressive blog has chosen to focus on the Indiana second district House race between Chris Chocola and Joe Donnelly. Nothing wrong with that; it’s their prerogative to blog about whatever they like.
But inside the Kos diaries, it’s been a different story. The conversation in the diaries has been overwhelmingly anti-Israel–and potentially disastrous for the Democratic party.
It’s not only Markos, but Kevin Drum, Josh Marshall and others that have explained their unwillingness to discuss the conflagration in Israel. The rationale varies, but the underlying problem is the same. The left wing in this country is generally critical of Israel’s settlement policy and supportive of a negotiated settlement along the lines laid out by Bill Clinton in 2000. Yet, the vast majority of American Jews are Democratic voters and important as activists and fundraisers for the party.
There is no better way to splinter the left than to put the behavior of Israel front and center in the national debate. The Republicans will offer their uncritical support for anything Israel does, and the left will flounder about trying to appear fair and balanced. There will be no shortage of anti-Israel comments to cite emerging from the left blogosphere, even if only from the diaries of community sites and the comments. And, no matter what “big-name” bloggers try to do in the way of coordinating the message, there will be plenty of ammunition to bring to the Jewish community as evidence of ambivalence or distaste for Israel from the left.
Given a choice between unambiguous support and hostile condemnation, many Jews will be drawn into the GOP tent. That is the strategy, and as far as I can tell, it is nearly foolproof.
All that is required is that Israel is engaged in combat. If it goes badly, it works all that much better, as Israel supporters become concerned and seek a certitude in political support.
Bloggers will supply differing reasons from shying away from this debate. Josh Marshall, for example, will say that it is divisive. Drum says he is not an expert. The reality is more complicated. This is not friendly terrain.
At Booman Tribune, we will continue to cover this story as we see it. But I am under no illusions. I have already been attacked for anti-Semitism. The Weekly Standard has already been trolling through the orange threads for the most inflammatory anti-Israeli comments. Our politicians are completely prostrate before such accusations.
The Dems are caught in a vice. To ask Israel to act in accordance with international standards of human rights in not currently possible. To fail to ask them to do so is enfeebling, emasculating, and empowering to the insane neo-conservative agenda.
We are being beseiged by an insurmountable political tsunami, and whether that tsunami is confronting us by way of cynical calculation or merely by chance hardly matters. What matters is that we cannot defeat it.
The country is opposed to that actions of Israel, but that is not remotely reflected in the sense of Congress.
We are left with the reality-based community:
“We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.”
Just to be clear: Israel’s government has the responsibility and the obligation to take actions that will protect their citizens and provide them with security. Only the most hardline critics of Israel will argue otherwise. But we are not even allowed to critique Israel’s strategy without assuring the alienation of an important part of our base and activist community. The reason is not that the Jewish community is not capable of making nuanced distinctions. In fact, they excel at that practice. The reason is that there are only 8 politicians in the entire House of Represenatives that are courageous enough to take a position remotely aligned with over 80% of the non-American, non-Israeli world. We have no allies. No one is standing with us. We speak out and we get called anti-Semites, or the supporters of terrorists. We get painted with the same brush as the most anti-Israel commenters in our threads.
What Israel is doing makes no sense and will not bring them greater security. It is doing grave harm to America’s position in the world. I’ll say it and take my lumps. I’ll say it knowing that I’ll get called an anti-Semite. I’ll say it knowing that Karl Rove has me cornered and that all my work will be sacrificed on the altar of of Israel versus the other. He’s not a bad tactician, after all.
also available in orange.
I really do think that the money changes everything. Jewish money in democratic circles simply isn’t trivial. Its the same reason why the corporate media doesn’t talk about important issues very much. They’re kind of paid not to. For the first time, over at Atrios (is Duncan Black Jewish?) and at Kos we’re seeing the first signs of Chomsky’s Propaganda Model at work. Unfortunately, I don’t think the problems of the party can be addressed without addressing the Jewish question. Frankly, and I’m a very unpopular guy for saying this, I think the entirety of the Jewish Senate delegation feels the same way about this administration as Joe Leiberman does. They’re just much quieter about it. Of course, being pro war is bad for dems and probably the country, but there you go. Of course, someone needs to ask Leiberman, and probably the entire Jewish delegation, what he meant by loyalties beyond the party. Did he mean Israel? ls he talking about dual loyalties? Because, in theory, anyway, the interests of Israel, looking more like South Africa by the day, aren’t the same as the United State’s. They just aren’t. And that’s my two cents…
Philip Shropshire
http://www.threeriversonline.com
I think this is a perfect example of why it is so hard to discuss the issue. This note is like the famous black hands Jesse Helms advert. There is a massive disconnect between, for example AIPAC and the general jewish population – most American Jews are very liberal. But the right wing American Jews are able to take advantage of the presence of real anti-semitism (and the absence of any reaction).
For myself, I find it exceptionally uncomfortable to read complaints about Israels stupid and brutal policy that get cheering responses like the one above.
Are you refering to my statements or someone else’s? Could you tell me what you find uncomfortable about it?
“Jewish money”
“Atrios (is Duncan Black Jewish?)”
“the Jewish question”
“I think the entirety of the Jewish Senate delegation feels the same way about this administration as Joe Leiberman does. They’re just much quieter about it.”
“ls he talking about dual loyalties?”
Are you going to ask about the Masons next?
Well fair enough. I guess I should try to make you feel even more uncomfortable. Actually, everything I say is based on facts and I can usually cite it.
Let’s take this one at a time:
1. “Jewish Money.”
Here’s Cockburn on AIPAC
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=10212
Here’s Cockburn on how they’re out to get Cynthia McKinney, twice now!
http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn0821.html
Please feel free to tell me how AIPACs or the pull of heavyweight Jewish donors like Soros and Rosenberg doesn’t affect the debate any. (By the way, when I worked for ACT we weren’t allowed to do any work against Arlen Specter…think about that.)
2″Atrios (is Duncan Black Jewish?)”
I think that affects how you view the war! I really do. And if you’re a Jewish person who’s against the war you have to walk a fine line as well. You might want to criticize the proxy war for Israel in Iraq or the latest Israeli atrocities in Lebanon but you don’t want to spur anti semitism. I know that both bigotry and the irrational hatred of jews is real. Now, here’s where I make you feel really really uncomfortable. I think that hating people for their ethnicity or the color of their skin is crazy and bigoted. But is it wrong to hate a group who, for speculation’s sake, approves of the proxy war in Iraq (they’re just not as obvious about it as Joe Leiberman), supports the slaughter of thousands of innocent Lebanese civilians and worse, may act as a fifth column within the only party that could stop the blood…I think at the very least they would be deserving of our distrust. Do they have dual loyalties?
3 “the Jewish question”
I feel like the guy who’s answering the question “What are the 39 Steps”, but here goes. Here’s the question. I promise it will make you feel very very uncomfortable:
IF THE JEWISH DELEGATION HAS DUAL LOYALTIES TO ISRAEL AND SUPPORTS BOTH THE PROXY WAR FOR ISRAEL IN IRAQ, THE BLATANT SLAUGHTER OF LEBANESE CIVILIANS, THEN DO THEY REALLY WANT DEMOCRATS TO TAKE POWER WHO WOULD NOT, IN THEIR VIEW, KILL WHOEVER HAS TO BE KILLED IN ORDER TO PROTECT ISRAEL? I think the uncomfortable answer is “No. They don’t want the Democrats to take back power.” And here’s another scary thought: They’re also very quiet about the vote theft issue. Of course, if you want Republican killers to win then you’re quite happy with vote theft!
4″I think the entirety of the Jewish Senate delegation feels the same way about this administration as Joe Leiberman does. They’re just much quieter about it.”
See Boxer and Feinstein campaign on behalf of Leiberman. Perhaps its ethnic. Gosh, I wonder who pressured Bill into campaigning for the guy who was open minded about impeaching him? What is the Schumer position on supporting Joe’s Third Party bid…Feeling uncomfortable yet?
5 “ls he talking about dual loyalties?”
Well, let me ask you when Joe Leiberman claims he has loyalties beyond the party what is he talking about? I think he means Israel’s interests first…enlighten me what do you think he means by that?
I don’t know anything about the Masons.
Please feel free to tell me how AIPACs or the pull of heavyweight Jewish donors like Soros and Rosenberg doesn’t affect the debate any.
You just demonstrated why your talk about Jewish money is utterly idiotic. Soros is extremely critical of Israel. The US Jewish community has a spectrum of views on Israel, same goes for the big money donors.
Actually, I worked for Soros when I worked for ACT. Want to know something curious: We did nothing on behalf of Arlen Spector’s opponent. We could have but we didn’t. Was it Jewish influence? Probably.
“there was a rape the other day, was it a black guy – probably.”
Blaming something on someone because of their race without any evidence will lead to suspicion of racism. When you do so when the evidence overwhelmingly points against you – as with Soros and his views on Israel or Feingold and his views on the Bush administration then the suspicion starts edging close to certainty.
Its not just the one thing. Its a lot of little things. But I have to be honest: I don’t count as not working against Specter a little thing! We were knocking on doors everyday. We could have easily have given Hoeffel enough name recognition to put him over the top…
Feingold also approves of the bombing campaigns. With Soros, who I think is a very decent man, I think the question is are there limits to his support?
“the Jewish question”
Yeah, it makes me uncomfortable too.
Uh, I think the Holocaust was real and was a terrible terrible thing. In fact, the United States should have entered the war sooner if they had early knowledge of the death camps. I also think I understand why Jewish people might be quick on the trigger, but it doesn’t excuse civilian slaughter…
I don’t think you do understand that when you write about “Jewish money” and “the Jewish question” you are writing straight from the German Nazi playbook.
If I have, then I sincerely apologize for offending anyone. I hate the Nazis. They’re the personification of all that is evil. Just for the record: I don’t wish ill upon the Jewish people, here or in Israel. Why, some of my best friends have been…just kidding.
I do think that current Israeli actions do not contribute to the long term safety or security of jewish people, anywhere.
I do think that current Israeli actions do not contribute to the long term safety or security of jewish people, anywhere.
You got that right.
I’m no Leibermind reader but I took from that “loyalties” quote of his that he was trying to paint himself as a patriot, above pesky Democratic partisanship, prepared to go his own way in service of his country.
I believe that you mean no offense, but it is very offensive to assume that American Jews are loyal to Israel above all else.
I never said that all American Jews have this sentiment. Just the ones in the senate delegation named Leiberman and Schumer and Feinstein and Boxer, who I once urged to run for President. Now, not so sure…And your answer about Leiberman seems plausible (his unctuousness being nigh infinite) but I really think he meant Israel. I might also point out, while I breathlessly await someone’s debunking of the Cockburn pieces I cited, that if the jewish senate delegation has turned (10 strong, stronger than any ethnic group other than rich white men) then that isn’t trivial either. To me, just a personal opinion, its the reason why the dems don’t act like an opposition. The party’s brahmins, many of whom are jewish, like the mid east wars. If they like the wars, why oppose the republicans effectively? Why filibuster for example. We get the worst of both worlds. Let me guess: even if we get a dem majority then republicans will still control everything because the filibuster will be real again…
that some are. Over on Orange, for example, there’s a “dual citizenship” poster who in the past has described himself as either American or Israeli, depending on what suited his argument at the moment. He enlisted, however, in the Israeli army, and in a recent post defined himself as rather unequivocally Israeli. Frankly I never saw it as a “loyalty” issue . . . I just saw him as a liar when he claimed to be an American. He’s not the only one over there who puts Israel first, even if they haven’t gone so far as dual citizenship (yet).
On the other hand there are of course many American Jews who despise the idea of racist states in general and Israel in particular. Most of those are “on the left” and solidly dedicated to “liberal” or “progressive” ideals . . .
Actually, Rahm Emmanuel, the completely impartial fellow who runs the DNC effort to take back the house, is a volunteer for the Israeli army (I think that’s the opposite of refusnik) and rumored Mossad agent. (I hope that’s not true.) Cockburn, again, has said that he’s picking candidates who aren’t that critical of the war. Imagine that. Just another coincidence. Reminds me of a Pennsylvania senate candidate hack bob casey hack…He’s not for a quick pullout, same as that guy who’s running against Mckinney who can afford Dkos ads…another coincidence…
And yet, despite the “hack”ing cough, “Steelydan”, a.k.a. Philip Shropshire, plans to vote for Bobby Casey in November. Understandable, perhaps, from a “lesser-evilist” perspective. If I still lived in PA and saw the chance to rid the Commonwealth of the ignominy that is Santorum, I’d almost certainly hold my nose and vote for Casey too. Then I’d go home, drink several Yuenglings, throw up in the sink, and go to bed hoping to wake up and find it was all just a bad dream.
I wonder, though, if, instead of Casey — who is pretty much Joe Lieberman with a Rosary (or even worse, because at least, for all his other faults, Lieberman has been solid enough on reproductive freedom issues to get the NARAL endorsement) — the Democratic candidate were, say, Joe Lieberman (or his evil twin, Russ Feingold) — would Philip still vote for the Democrat?
is . . . unfortunate . . . but the issue is still there to be addressed. A significant part of the “dividing the party” issue that BooMan raises is that a significant part of Democratic party funding does come from Jewish donors, and there is the perception at least that Democratic candidates, however liberal, will not see any of that money if they question Israel. Actually it’s more than a perception, it’s more like an oft demonstrated reality. It’s the primary tool of AIPAC pressure on American politicians, the threat either of withdrawing support or actively supporting an opponent. It’s a kind of extortion that has long corrupted American politics in general and the Democratic party in particular.
How many Palestinians in concentration camps, how many Lebanese dead or made refugee, how much of Lebanon destroyed without us speaking out? What price are we willing to pay for “party unity”? I believe we’ve been silent for far too long . . . Lebanon is just the spoiled icing on an already rotten cake.
It’s a real issue. What words would you suggest, or find acceptable, when discussing it ? ? ?
Since you have previously explained that you thought it would be good for Israel to be turned into a landlocked ghetto and subjected to bombardment and poverty, I don’t see what word choice can do to help.
it might curdle your milk, but . . .
I suggested applying the “Golden Rule” and doing unto Israel what Israel has done to others. You’re not trying to argue for exceptionalism and special entitlement, are you?
Really, you think the “golden rule” is so good, then if you are an American, why don’t you exterminate yourself and leave your goods to the Indian tribes? If you are European or Anti-podean, you can easily find a similar action.
Nobody believes in that crap except when they want an excuse for mistreating someone else.
Hey, I’m the descendant of American slaves. I didn’t have a choice in the matter. (I guess there’s my homeland Liberia…perhaps I’ll kill 30000 iraqis to make them feel safer…if African Americans had 10 senators in the US Senate…)
I do think that you’re a partisan who probably smiles at the death of every Lebanese civilian Alan Dershowitz style…
So you can dump white phosphorous on yourself or endure a carpet bombing.
I am, as I have said before, very much against Israel’s atrocities in Lebanon and their immoral behavior in Gaza and West Bank. However, if people want to explain their disgust with Israel using anti=semitic language or bizzare generalizations about Jews (e.g. that Feingold probably agrees with Lieverman on Iraq because after all they are both Yids), it’s pretty obvious that humanitarian concerns are not their only goal.
I don’t think the Jewish delegation in the US Senate acts on Israel in a way that could be described as “impartial”. But hey, I’ll ask you the same question as the other guy, which Jewish Senator will intro the Kucinich in the US Senate? I’ll hold my breath…
I recognize that AIPAC is a significant factor in Democratic party politics. But the funding that comes from AIPAC is not the same thing as “Jewish money.” There is a lot of opposition to Israel’s actions among American and even Israeli Jews. Just don’t paint us with the same broad brush. If we are going to speak out about this very contentious issue, the choice of words is important.
As to Booman’s point — FWIW I don’t disagree that we should write about it, and I don’t think he’s an anti-Semite. I hope he’s wrong about the strategy of drawing Jewish voters into the Republican tent. I don’t think they’ll get many takers. But I live in a liberal blue bubble so it’s hard for me to judge.
Look, aren’t the people in AIPAC Jewish? Do they not use their “money” to influence policy…? If it quacks like a duck…
Well, I start to question your good will. Aren’t black Americans descended from monkeys like all people? So who could object if you go stand on a street corner in Detroit and start yelling about “all you monkeys”? And if you wear a white cone hat, it can’t hurt either. Criticism of Israel that relies on anti-semitic code words is, at best, stupid.
Look, to me, you start losing all credibility when you defend AIPAC… and hey let me help you out with more effective nigger race baiting: Go read Gene Expression. We’re not all descended from monkeys, some of us aren’t descended from the right kinds of monkeys. We’re genetically inferior. We don’t have the math and civility gene like all those cute asian kids. Get your racist nomenclature straight…
This is undoubtedly pointless, but I’m trying to make you understand that if you use words and concepts from classical anti-semitism you should not be surprised if people call you an anti-semite. If a white guy in a pointed white hat starts calling random black people on the street monkeys it means something really different from an evolutionary biologist saying “humans descend from monkeys”. If someone criticizes Israel and talks about “jewish money” it is hard to give them the benefit of the doubt. If he then couples it by,with no evidence at all, asserting that Feingolds entire record of fighting the war in Iraq and Bush is just a clever ruse to deceive people and Fiengold really feels the same way as Lieberman since they are both Jews, then he’s way over the line.
I used to live in a Texas suburb and heard the most atrocious racist crap from people who were deeply offended when told they were racist. But being unaware that you are repeating bigotry is no excuse.
I might also note that there are no words or phrases that you wouldn’t find outside the scope of traditional anti semitism that I could ever use that would ever satisfy you.
Did I complain about the Booman post? No. I simply pointed out that complaints about Israel, no matter how valid, seem to attract other people who want to complain about Jews.
If you want to complain about AIPAC without using terms like “Jewish money” go ahead.
That’s not possible!
Which I suppose explains how silly your arguments actually are.
BTW: I’m not defending AIPAC, I’m attacking you and that moron Cockburn for stupid conspiracy mongering. I can’t help it if you believe their self-serving BS about how powerful they are.
I repeatedly say I oppose the Israeli atrocities. But that’s apparently not good enough for you. I have to agree with your ill-informed theories about the Jewish Conspiracy.
Look, calling Cockburn an asshole isn’t debating him or debunking his ideas. I don’t think its conspiracy mongering to talk about AIPAC’s, I think, largely negative role in the American state of affairs.
Hey Lil! My downstairs neighbors are Orthodox Jews and very liberal as well. In 2004, they told me that many of their friends were voting for Bush because he better represented Israeli interests. They were afraid Kerry would not support Israel. So, I think the idea that the Dems are bad for Israel has been a growing feeling amoung Orthodox Jews.
One time they invited me and KamaKid to Shabbat dinner. They were sharing their culture with us and I really appreciated the sentiment. We have joined them in a number of celebrations since, all of which have been interesting and helped me better understand Jewish culture. At any rate, over dinner one of their best friends started talking about how we should exterminate the Arabs. To say I was speachless is an understatement. Being an invited guest, I merely hinted that I thought all war was wrong. Thankfully, the hostess informed him under no uncertain terms that she would not tolerate racism in her house. I could then continue to respect some people whom I consider friends.
What this episode taught me was that while there are many people of the Jewish faith who are opposed to a continued war with the Arab states, there are a number who feel that war and/or genocide is the only answer. Even, here, in the Bay Area, where peace and liberalism lives, the subject is just too personal for rational thought. The guy who made the statement was a doctor for crying out loud, a man who pledged to himself to the healing arts. He was in all other respects a decent person.
So, Lil, I think we have already lost the “Jewish vote”, at least among those who define more with being Jewish than with being Democratic. We should take a stance and stick with it. Booman is right, we are between a rock and a hard place, but wishy-washy is wishy-washy.
I think we need to keep writing about this. I think that we are all learning. I had some pretty knee-jerk reactions to Israel’s overreaction and continuing bloodshed, but I have also been reminded of how personal this is for Jews. We can’t change the mistakes of the past, but continued warfare will not accomplish anything. It will only repeat the past mistakes.
Hi Kama — Well to me Orthodox=conservative (that’s with a small “c”, not Jewish Conservative). So I’m not surprised. I would guess 2004 was not the first time your neighbors’ friends voted for Bush. However I think this is a small minority.
By the way I define myself as more Jewish than Democratic, and so do many people I know. Most of us vote Democratic though many vote strategically Green. (I was registered Peace and Freedom for a while!)
I would have normally equated Orthodox with conservative too, but having been to their temple and met their friends, I was convinced otherwise. There is a large Orthodox contingent here that wants to maintaing the culture, but are not socially conservative. I know, probably an anomaly in the larger Orthodox community, but it does exist here.
They were mostly Democratic until the 2004 election. Basically, they supported the war against Iraq as it was killing their Arab enemies. That is why they switched parties. My neighbor was telling me that they were willing to forego their social liberalism if it meant death to an Arab state. Well, not in so many words, but that was the underlying sentiment.
My boss is a Reformed Jew and stays mum on this war. I think he opposes the Israeli agression, and is against the war in Iraq, but is uncomfortable opposing Israel. But, he is a die-hard Democrat and even if the Democratic party outwardly denouced the agression, he would continue to support them. But, you’re right…that was a bad way to put it. I think he would identify more as Jewish than Democratic, but I don’t think that if the Democrats stood against further ME conflict that he would change his vote. On the other hand, if the Dems stopped all Israeli support and it was someone other than Bush or some other neo-con, I can’t promise that he wouldn’t change his mind.
Ugh…this is so complicated. Thinking is hard work. ;>)
I instantly regretted posting “Orthodox=conservative” — I know better than to generalize in that way.
It’s hard for me to understand why some American Jews feel such strong identification with Israel. But I do know that even among people who love and identify with Israel, there are many who oppose this bloodshed.
And obviously there are many who support it. “Basically, they supported the war against Iraq as it was killing their Arab enemies.” That sounds horrible. I don’t know your neighbor’s friends, but I think for many many Jews, their goal as they see it is not killing Arabs, it’s a matter of survival. Whether you agree or not, this is their point of view. How can they be convinced there is another way? Sometimes I have a hard time convincing myself.
You know what, Kama? I’m not sure what you mean about not being wishy-washy, but if you mean that we should take sides in this conflict, I don’t agree. It’s just not that simple, finding the way of peace.
I’m way tired and this might be incoherent but I wanted to respond to your thoughtful posts. (And just say Hey!)
p.s. Your boss is a Reform Jew, I think. Jews for Jesus might call themselves Reformed though!
Thanks a million for your thoughts Lil. I really do want to understand how people think the way they do and you are helping immensely. :>)
I’m just totally speaking off the cuff, so to speak. Basically, I’ve come to understand that many Jewish people like the war on Iraq, even if they profess to hate the killing. It’s sad and it’s wrong, but it is also understandable when you talk about the survival of Israel.
Wishy-washy…hmmm…yeah, I was thinking about taking a side. It seems to me that the Dems refuse to take stands about serious issues like the so-called War on Terror ™, gay marriage, poverty, health care, etc. I don’t really see the Israeli-Arab negotiations/wars in any different light. Obviously, I am not Jewish, so the issue is much more distant for me. I think I can understand some of the nationalism of Israel. I may not agree, but I think I can understand. At any rate, I think it would be good for the Dems to take a stand one way or the other at least on some issues. You are probably right that this is not the one to take on.
Also, as for killing Arabs, they would never put it like that, as I tried to say, but that is what I hear from them. Maybe I am hearing my own biases, but I don’t think so. It is horrible and it is sad. I know that many in these parts don’t feel this way, but I don’t think we can discount it as a real feeling among at least a decent sized amount of American Jews. I was shocked to learn this and had many long conversations with my neighbors and their friends. They claimed they were against war, but they put Israel’s safety first and so war was really just a matter of security. While they understood the war against Iraq was wrong, they felt safer with it. In that light, I can understand what they were saying, but I drew the line at outright killing and they didn’t.
Doh, Reform Jew…sigh, I will get it right from now on! Thanks for the correction, really. :>)
Thanks again Lil for your own responses. I really appreciated chatting with you and it helped me understand more. Hugs and sleep well.
Kama you are helping me to understand too. That’s what it’s all about! I thank you too.
now see there, what sitting down and talking can do as far as to an understanding. This is what we all should be doing for the whole situation. but not this administration…never for it might come to a peace agreement for us all. plain and simple..if we can do it here why cant America as a whole. it really is not that hard to do, is it??!!..or am I just simple minded here?
You’re right that we should be talking, Brenda. I think it’s insane to throw bombs before trying to talk with people labelled “terrorists.” The whole world seems insane.
I should have made it clear that my exposure to Jewish thought and culture was limited and I am only talking about my limited experience. I thought that was obvious, but I just realized I should probably make it explicit. So, I am totally willing to realize I am way off base, but I just thought that adding what I hear ’round these parts would be interesting to discuss.
this seems as good a place topically to jump in as any, though I’m addressing the whole group, and not just the above writer.
As a boring white 60-yr old gentile from the suburbs now living alone intown far from home, I’d like to say I’ve always admired jewish and black cultures, especially as a former musician in my youth, and wanted some of their panache.
I’ve always seen Jewry as an internationalist, progressive force, and I nourish the hope that it still is: that the Meir Kahanas and Rebbe Shneersons are not Yiddishkeit.
The number of Jews in the public eye who consistently refuse to buy into (at least the stronger versions of) Zionism is very large (but I realize I have a selective view). Amy Goodman, Dennis Bernstein of “Flashpoints” on Pacifica, who says he gets death threats and accusations of being a “self-hating Jew”, Morduchai Vanunu, Norman Finkelstein, Chomsky, Dan Shorr — plenty of great names — not to forget Daniel Barenboim, and many more.
But the rise of the Neocons, we all know them: Irving & Bill Kristol, Norman & John Podhoretz, Richard Perle, Douglas Feith, Elliot Abrams, Paul Wolfowitz, Donald Kagan, David & Meyrab Wurmser, perhaps we should include Dr. Strangelove himself, Edward Teller, and the father of the movement Leo Strauss and disciple Allan Bloom, all basically Russian or East European Jews, formerly Trotskyites, especially in the sense that Trotsky advocated “International” or universal communism — the rise of these people to power, let’s face it, has been a virtual coup of the US government. Now it couldn’t have happened without the gentile (so-called “Christian”) crazies of the Armageddonist/Dominionist Right, and the cynical Greed crazies of the Bilderberger/Satanist Right (ever seen all the pics of Bush & family doing the Mano Cornuta?)
Jews are just like everybody else, only more so! More better, and more worser.
Where am I going with all this? It is in the back of my mind, an urgent appeal to (Ashkenazi) Jews, by all measures the smartest people in the world, to the Einsteins, the Salks, the Heifetzes, the Lenny Bruces for crissake!, the Allen Ginsburgs — these towering figures whom I have looked to for sanity all my silly life —
to step back and do the bravest thing that can be asked of them. Just as Jesse had the guts to say to the ghetto blacks, driven half mad by poverty and racism, at least “stop killing each other”, let these my Jewish heroes stand up and with a unified voice, taller than country (“Imagine there’s no countries/It isn’t hard to do/”) and say, “We love our brethren in Israel, but we can’t let our names be a party to genocide or oppression, and we don’t agree that Israel’s military policy is making Israeli Jews a damn bit safer.”
If I might point out a web page that was since removed from the web (at the time of removal a hard-drive crash was blamed, but now I’m not so sure) which was essentially a spreadsheet (the URL was [ http://www.terrorvictims.com/victims979.html ] that domain name is now a totally different website, and, you can plainly see, not appropriate to the text of the URL — very fishy); anyway, I have a copy of the original if anyone wants to see it.
I did a count of “Israelis Killed in Terrorist Attacks in 1999-2003”, and discovered that, in the 20 months preceding Ariel Sharon’s arrogant strut with hundreds of armed guards on the Temple Mount, 9-28-00, FIVE Israelis were killed by terror. They were:
In the 20 months FOLLOWING that publicity stunt, FOUR HUNDRED FORTY-THREE. Nice work, Arik. And of course, it’s only gotten worse, and the well-known fact is that some 5 Palestinians (hard-liners in Israel say loudly “there is no such thing as a Palestinian” and quote Roman sources) die for every Israeli, and that’s not counting those that die for lack of water after the power station that runs the pumps is bombed.
Did Sharon get what he wanted? Oh, yeah! Bibi ain’t PM, is he?
Sorry, you lost me with this: Jews are just like everybody else, only more so! More better, and more worser.
Well, I could have said that better. Let me put it this way.
As I watched FDR’s “Solid South” desert their best economic interests (the Democratic Party) to follow Nixon’s “Southern Strategy” in the wake of the signing by LBJ of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Legend has it that he remarked after signing the Act, “We have lost the South for a generation.”), as I watched the national guard Ike sent into Little Rock to enforce integration, as I watched the coup of the state of California by the state of Texas, using an artificial energy crisis to punish that blue state, and install a collaborator (see “Arnold’s Enron Connection”) I was not surprised.
Growing up in Colorado, I had little to dissuade me from the opinion that the South was not a place of justice. The Jewish culture of New York, on the other hand, as well as the many Jews I knew personally in Denver without exception, always represented for me the height of “citizen of the world”, people whose hands were clean of “regionalism” but rather champions of justice built on principle alone.
Jews are at the same time extremely talented people, on average. We know their IQ is the highest of any ethnic group (Ashkenazis, at least). We know they get 14% of the Nobel prizes, being only 1.5% of population. We see them in the front ranks of arts and sciences, especially medicine, physics, string players, actors, journalists, but really all areas of excellence. I felt, growing up, that they were a force in my life protecting my sanity, defending reality from the forces of BS, typified by George Wallace types.
It was a tremendous and sudden shock to me to see the rise of the Neocons, not least because so many Jews were at the forefront of this cancerous growth on my beloved country. Yes, I’d been aware of Milton Friedman’s unholy influence on Reagan, but that just seemed to be “biznez” — I could reconcile that. Same with Michael Milken.
But when I had to face the facts about the PNAC, and about Leo Strauss (see Noble lies and perpetual war: Leo Strauss, the neo-cons, and Iraq)and his disciples, including Wolfowitz, architect of the current war-crime in Iraq, I had to come to the conclusion that Jews were, contrary to my lifetime belief, not actually better people than the rest of us (still certainly no worse, but no longer better).
They are just more talented and effective at what ever they do. And when they go wrong, it’s scarier than other wrongs, just as their great contributions to the welfare of civilization have been so outstanding.
this way of talking about people as carrying certain characteristics or ability due to their race or religious upbringing is dangerous.
You were wrong to think of Jews as collectively better than other people, and you would be wrong to think the opposite.
It’s best to move beyond that type of thinking altogether. Look at individuals. PNAC is not an exclusively Jewish organization and it doesn’t represent more than a minority of Jewish opinion. So why emphasize it’s Jewishness at all?
What they are is a group of people that are pro-Israel for a variety of reasons. They are also pro new American century, which means they are pro-projecting American power. They do not thereby represent Americans.
I appreciate what you said.
The relationship between anti-Semitism and Jewish achievement is complicated and interesting (there may or may not be a causal relationship, and that relationship may or may not go in both directions).
“look at individuals”
I’m not sure the answer is to pretend the world is homogenous; every person is a member of a number of different groups, and those memberships effect our behavior, individually and collectively. But I think it’s very important to try to avoid oversimplifying and overgeneralizing.
I have to acknowledge that you’re probably right, that these kinds of thoughts are fraught with dangerous unpredictable spinoff results that perhaps no one even intends. If my original piece had left out the brief line, maybe no one would have been completely distracted from the real point (which is, that the Jewish scholars and journalists who argue for a better solution than we are seeing promulgated by the Bushies should be listened to, and their arguments given serious consideration by those who seem to circle the wagons when the State of Israel acts, ostensibly on the basis of “undeniable” provocation by “terrorists”.
My friend, the Israeli customer, came in the store today again, after a long absence. I said “Erev Tov” (good afternoon), and he said with a sad smile, in English, “I suppose so, as good as can be expected under the circumstances.” He is quite a tall man, and well built, with a big beard, and a big accent. I knew what he meant: the disaster in Lebanon. But he feels strongly that Israel has no choice. The conversation went something like this:
(I) “But the people of Lebanon, are they guilty?”
(He) “Most of them, probably not. But Israel is trying to avoid shooting into the Sunni and Christian areas. The Shias, they are the ones who elected Hizbollah.”
(I) “But Hizbollah is not in power.”
(He) “Not in power, but in the government.” (as a coalition?)
(I) “what do you think of Bush creating a Shia Theocracy in Iraq?”
(He) “Ah! The stupidest thing he could have done. Utterly foolish. The man is a moron.”
The conversation went on for quite a while, and at one point he mentioned the Second Intifada, as a rationale for severe measures.
I said, “Isn’t it true that the Second Intifada began on 9-28-2000, the day of Sharon’s walk …” he cut me off, not roughly. “Yeah” (meaning he knew what I meant), “no, actually it began two days before that. There was a soldier who was killed by …” I don’t remember the details. He gave the soldier’s name, and added an extra detail that, to him, and to his sources, made it plain that this was not merely a coincidence, but was indeed a new intifada.
Now that I look back to the table, I’m almost sure it was this fellow David Biri, attacked on 9-28-00, the day before Sharon’s walk on the Temple Mount.
We talked for another ten minutes at least, in warm friendship and genuine mutual respect. I’m not sure he knows what he’s talking about, but I’m equally not sure he doesn’t. It’s a matter of deep distress for me, what’s happening.
I said “zeh z’man rav shel lo hitraenu” (“long time no see!” he answered something I did not recognize, but I think it was “nohal” or “nohar”. I’ll have to look that up), and shook his hand, and went back to work.
I’d like to ask the forum, do they think, if Sharon had been willing to forbear breaking the established protocol by walking in the Arab only area, if the Second Intifada would have happened anyway, indeed had already begun, as my friend believes?
It seems to me, this is a question of paramount importance.
And I thank the forum for this opportunity to present such a question to so many who are knowledgeable and deeply interested in these matters.
.
It was like a lucifer (dutch for a match) in a tinder box, it ignited the second intifadah into a riot. The planning by the Palestinians was indeed at an earlier date.
“When the Camp David summit broke up Palestinian leader Arafat was determined to start a second intifadah. It broke out after Israeli politician Ariel Sharon visited the Temple Mount and violent demonstrations broke out. These demonstrations soon became deadly.”
Wikipedia
On September 27, Sgt. David Biri was killed, Israeli sources typically view this as the start of the Intifada. Generally, however, most international observers consider Sharon’s visit to the Temple Mount/Al-Haram Al-Sharif mosque as the initiating event.
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."
▼ ▼ ▼ MY DIARY
Thanks for your interest, and thank goo’ness for Wikipedia.
After studying parts of that section, I see that there were indeed calls for a second intifada among Palestinians before the above-mentioned event.
But I don’t doubt that references could be found to incendiary rhetoric on the rabbinical side, as well, from the camp that produced Yigal Amir and Baruch Goldstein.
We’ll never know if forbearance on the part of Sharon could have forestalled the second intifada, but it would have exonerated him of the burden of possible guilt for it. And it probably would have removed that other burden from his shoulders as well: the leadership of Likud.
It’s called lobbying. Last I checked it was pretty widely practiced.
Another AIPAC defender! Hey, I have to admit that I’m a little jealous. I wish there was a blackpac or even a peacepac at this point…
steely: “I think the entirety of the Jewish Senate delegation feels the same way about this administration as Joe Leiberman does”
Last time I checked, Feingold was part of “the Jewish Senate delegation.” Does your comment apply to him?
And if it does, does that mean dKos folks are fools for supporting him, overwhelmingly?
Look, I kinda like Feingold. But now I’m paranoid. When Joe Leiberman talks about loyalties above the party what does he mean? Now, I think that he’s kind of a False Flag Jewish politician. He’s the good cop, but would he use American force to benefit Israel if President. Before the last two stolen elections I would have said no. Now, not so sure. I’m just being honest…
I think I asked you a pretty simple and sincere question, and as far as I can tell, you dodged it. Then again, maybe I just misunderstood your answer.
You claimed, fairly explicitly, that Feingold “feels the same way about this administration as Joe Leiberman does.” I asked you if you are seriously making this claim (and if you are, I’d love to see some evidence, aside from the mutual missing foreskins). Your answer (“I kinda like Feingold”) isn’t an answer.
How does Feingold feel about the latest Israeli incursions into Lebanon? I guess that would answer your question…
As a Jew, I feel safe saying that it’s a Jewish trait to sometimes answer a question with another question. I also think it’s a valid practice, but only up to a certain point. In my opinion, you’ve passed that point. In other words, you’ve managed to convince me that you’re never going to give me a straight answer to my question, no matter how many times I ask you.
I will try to translate your latest non-answer into English, though: “since I haven’t heard Feingold condemn Israel’s current behavior, I think this is sufficient basis for me to ignore his entire track record with regard to Bush, and claim that Feingold feels the same way about this administration as Joe Leiberman does.”
What’s bizarre is that you weren’t content to claim that Feingold feels the same way about Israel as Lieberman does (whatever that would mean). You said something much more unfathomable.
“I guess that would answer your question…”
Yes, assuming one can’t tell the difference between an answer and an evasion.
Frankly, I think the Iraq war and Israel are the big issues. I’m more concerned about his stands there. It should be a simple question to answer: Does Feingold support Israel and their, according to them, restrained murder of Lebanese civilians or doesn’t he? I presume that since you haven’t answered that yet, its not an answer that you want me to know…Or how about this: does he support the Kucinich bill recently introduced that condemns the Israeli bombings? And why doesn’t he if he doesn’t? Am I allowed to think that it might be ethnic without being slandered or called an anti semite…? Probably not. But I think this question needs to be pursued no matter how uncomfortable it makes us…I honestly think, after looking for any other reason quite frankly, that its the main reason the democratic party doesn’t act like an opposition party.
I… hope I’m misunderstanding you. The main reason the Democratic party doesn’t act like an opposition party is because of Jewish senators? This makes absolutely no sense. How many senators are Christian? How many are European-Americans? How many are men? Why don’t you say the Democratic party is fucked up because of Christians, or white people, or men?
The only tool the dems have is the filibuster. They never use it. Why don’t they? I think its because the Jewish delegation prevents it from being used. And they can. They have the numbers. l think they like the mideast wars. If true, this puts them at odds against the dem base, the democratic party and the well being of the country. I know, a small thing…
I don’t think Christian senators have dual loyalties. But I think if you combine the vichy DLC dems with the Jewish delegation then you get a democratic party that doesn’t act like an opposition party…I think that’s the uncomfortable truth.
Dude, I have no wish to argue with crazy people. Time for me to polish my horns and call it a night.
Aren’t you going to call me an anti semitic crazy person who doesn’t like AIPAC? Because that would really hurt my feelings and shut me up about the issue…
Racism and anti-semitism are so endemic in society that people use terms like “jewish money” and “dual loyalty” without even being conscious. Then they wonder why Jews get all defensive.
Code words are interesting. I remember pale dude who nearly lost his teeth after an ill-timed remark about chimpanzees during a basketball game long ago. Gave him a remarkable insight into the need for sensitivity.
STill waiting for you to tell me that AIPAC and wealthy Jewish donors have no influence on the party…but here’s what Deward says:
How many Palestinians in concentration camps, how many Lebanese dead or made refugee, how much of Lebanon destroyed without us speaking out? What price are we willing to pay for “party unity”? I believe we’ve been silent for far too long . . . Lebanon is just the spoiled icing on an already rotten cake.
It’s a real issue. What words would you suggest, or find acceptable, when discussing it ? ?
Good question.
Of course AIPAC and wealthy Jewish donors have an effect on the party, and guess what, rich Jews tend to be more right wing than not rich Jews. The Cynthia McKinney story illustrates to me exactly how much of a wanker Cockburn and others who spread that AIPAC conspiracy are. Cynthia, who I admire, stopped doing constituent services and showing up in the district. And she pissed of both AIPAC and Desi-Americans (Indians) here
Why don’t we hear anything about dual loyalty of the India lobby.
Does the India lobby have 10 fucking senators? I mean, come on. I mean, Cynthia has a slight crazy streak isn’t it pretty much concluded that AIPAC goes after her? Are you saying that AIPAC doesn’t? Okay, I gave some cites about the influence AIPAC…what credible person thinks Aipac going after Mckinney isn’t about Israel?
Should I use shorter words? Cynthia offended both AIPAC and the “dual loyalty India lobby”. Even though the Indians spent a lot of money trying to defeat her, we don’t hear anything about the Indian conspiracy or their use of Christian blood in their puri recipies. So why is that?
I don’t really give a fuck if AIPAC is offended. I think they have the same credibility as the insurance or oil lobbies. Which is to say, none at all….And again: if there were 10 Indian American senators who were pushing for a war against Pakistan then I would take a look at that, trust me…
antiiiiiii-Semmmmmite, ANTI-SEMITE! Ummm Verrr, you don’t like Jews!
I love life in all of it’s many shades and colors! I had to call you an anti-Semite at orange just because I wanted to see what would happen (a senseless survey since people wouldn’t know I was poking fun at you), and Arken informed me that you may be self important but you’re no bigot! Just wait till I link to your “Alan D” intemperate post, for some reason it seems to have gone unnoticed at DailyKos. I can’t understand why except that maybe I have an issue with being self important and I think that the world reads the blog I post on. I hate life.
Booman’s diary at orange has 130 comments already. All of the boys are “healthy” tonight, and DHinMI has already linked the Maybe You Should Kill Yourself diary. Is it a full moon or something?
I believe the new term is ‘Mercury Retrograde’. 🙂
around such “healthy” people this evening as someone has now posted that whoever that jackass is at the top of the comments screaming anti-Semite can just get their shit and get the hell out and don’t let the door hit me in my pathetic ass on my way out. WHEW! Sometimes do you ever get the feeling that people have been trying vewy vewy vewy hard to not talk about some things? I am now asking for forgiveness for “kidding” and being a little late down the thread in making it clear that I was kidding.
I thought that was hilarious.
well, what are you gonna do?
party with the healthy boys because they are interesting. Susie is right though, boys do always think they are right.
Call me a conspiracist, anti-semite, astrologer or what have you, but it’s a new moon.
http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/vphase.html
You also get called an Anti Semite whenever you criticize Israel or American Likudniks like Alan Dershowitz…
The other ‘bad cop’ showed up at dKos.
And of course, none of them read the diary before they made their standard comments. What a surprise.
Stupid though.
Does not make me anti-Israeli, anymore than my opposition to American actions in Iraq makes me anti-American.
Let’s go back to BooMan’s first paragraph. Fact is, no matter how bad the Rep’s look on paper and on our screens, they will steal and manipulate the election in November, as they have in 2004, 2002, and 2000. Why argue and spill blood over this speculation on Jews and Democrats? Here we go again, self-immolating. No wonder we always lose.
Can’t we stick to message? STOP the voter fraud to come.
till you see the Dkos diary….but I think it is good to vent what is being pent up by large groups of people. I’m just standing a ways back from it all though right now. Lots of pent up speech being spoken.
I know not to go over there and look. It’s all so appalling to me. We’re strangling ourselves again, and the Fascists roll right over our bleeding, exhausted bodies, rights and lives.
Not quite on topic: But check out http://www.threeriversonline.com for the latest Greg Palast vids…
Yeah, Mason’s…that’s down wit it. Why does everybody here in ‘lefty’ blogospheria want to drink the Kool-Aid. I don’t think anything Kos or Jerome or Hunter or Meteor Blades writes or says is gonna make any difference to the Israeli’s or the Lebanese or Hamas or Sadr or….you get the picture.
And if ‘Jewish Money’ ain’t a special interest group I don’t know what is.
I intend to keep doin’ what I think is the right thing and fuck you if you don’t like it.
One of those things is speaking out against racism, jingoism and rankism where ever they rear their ugly heads. It’s not exactly clear what is going on in the Middle-East at this moment, with the exception that the Israeli government must have drunk a couple of gallons of ReThug Kool-Aied, apart from the fact that the current crop of AssClowns-in-Charge; you know, Bush, Rice, Liebermann, Boxer, Pelosi, Kerry, Cheney, Rumsfeld….those great statesmen…
Have no idea what to do.
Not a surprise, The whole stinkin’ pack of ’em are pathetically absent the ability and intellect the problems our nation faces requires to avoid an even bigger mess than we’ve got on our hands now.
So…thinking and working on CA-11 etc. is not such a bad idea.
Until ‘folks’ whose brains actually work are back in control in this country the rest of the world is on it’s own.
Great job they’re doin’ at it.
If you look at the comment in this thread
by Steelydan on Mon Jul 24th, 2006 at 09:05:00PM, you can see one of the serious problems. Mr. Steelydan’s note contains a series of anti-semitic code words e.g. “Jewish money” and “dual loyalties” and asks what can be done about the “Jewish question”. When every post on the Israeli atrocities draws comments like this one – comments that draw positive ratings and reactions- you have to expect that anyone sensitive to this stuff will get a little upset. I have no idea whether Steelydan is anti-semitic or just picking up anti-semitic memes from the backround.
Actually, as someone who worships Noam Chomsky and Amy Goodman and Woody Allen and Donald Fagen I’m probably not the best candidate as someone who’s anti semitic…and as I responded earlier I have reasons for thinking the way I do.
I used to know a bunch of people who worshipped Michael Jordan and talked about the niggers all the time. They also were pissed off at any suggestion that they were racist.
Hey, I’ve met those same white people! Fair enough.
Uh, I’m voting for Ed Rendell by the way or does that matter?
word
I’d probably vote for Kinky Friedman too. I like his slots for tots plan…
It’s not only Markos, but Kevin Drum, Josh Marshall and others that have explained their unwillingness to discuss the conflagration in Israel.
actually, drum and marshall only blogged about their difficulty in writing about the subject. neither swore off the topic like markos did. in fact, both have written about it since the post you link to. kevin drum has actuallly written extensively on the conflict, and i personally think his coverage has been pretty thorough and fair
Right on. We’re in a time of catastrophe with a fascist government’s boot on our necks. I hate the way nearly all the name Democrats, including the main lefty bloggers, are scared silly to say anything controversial, especially about Israel and Palestine. The house is burning down, but they don’t want to speak up, for fear of scaring the kids who were playing with matches.
etc.
This is probably my all-time worst comment. I’m tired.
But I’m on the side of people like Booman who have the courage to speak directly.
Let me make just one more comment. I’ve always supported Israel. I’ve always assumed that God was on the side of the Israelis and that the ultimate security of the Israeli state was a certainty. I’ve always assumed that, all things considered, the Israelis were mainly the good guys in the conflict. I no longer believe any of that.
One more thing: is this the night that Booman gets banned from DKos? We should take a poll. I smell the stench of a lynch mob.
because people are actually talking a bit and not lynching now. Between DHinMI, Arken, and Miss Laura they were just gonna whoop his ass but good and shame on him and his evil Boomaness and his blog of self promotion.
DHinMI and Miss Laura against you . . . you can be pretty confident that you’re right . . .
to death! She reminds me of the nuns that gave children long earlobes at the private school nextdoor to mine when I was in middle school.
I wish she’d change her name. :/
Booman has a BLOG? And he mentioned that he has one?
Shameless. Utterly shameless.
It’s a good thing DHinMi doesn’t promote his blog–say, by attaching it in his signature line with each post.
Remember: DHinMi is NOT a rapper. And he reminds us all the time that he does NOT talk about his blog, The Next Hurrah.
I don’t know how Booman keeps his self-control under that kind of nasty onslaught from the vile DHinMN and slave minions Arken, MissLaura, etc. He lets out a few little outraged but diffident whelps, but no real roars. Sorta Johnny Deppish.
When I ran into that kind of gangbang on one of my own diaries, oh about 18 months ago, I fought back–and got totally nuclear annihilated. Booman’s way is smarter, I guess, but I don’t admire it. Reading that diary, I really had an incredible desire to find out where DHinMN lives so I could punch him in the nose. What an asshole!!
DH is afraid of me. But that is to be expected. He will never show up where he knows I may show up.
It’s no big deal. He’s a chickenhawk.
Let me just say I think that’s a cool comment. It really takes a special kind of sangfroid to do what you do. For what it’s worth, I watch, and I try to emulate a bit.
DHinMi is an EMERETI, man. Or hadn’t you heard about that?
DHinMi is the reason I never joined DailyKos. One wearies of his thread trolling. You have but to even imply that Markos is less than perfect and he flies into a rage. But then again, Kos heartily approves of DHinMi. If he didn’t, he’d take away his administrative privileges and curb his bullying and trolling.
Not to be confused with Illuminati!
Notice how DHinMi modestly doesn’t mention The Next Hurrah, except for twice (once in his comment and once in his signature line)
…I even got into it a little.
OK, back to more productive efforts.
(BTW, great diary)
Sadly, the supply of assholes is far greater than one would be led to believe by the proposition: ‘Everybody’s got one…’
But do you have to rub it all over ‘folks’ is my question?
Er…one of ’em anyway. I’m not touching this thread with any appendage…
But I will say there is not much positive to be said for Israel’s latest ‘actions’ if that makes me a, shudder, anti-Semite then so be it.
I can live with that.
you moved the asshole DH to a different state, I protest on behalf of Minnesota.
i think he lives in minnesota.
topics. To remain quiet while people are being massacred is in my opinion just condoning it. I dont care what the political damage is. People are being killed in droves and if any of us want to call ourselves liberals we should be opposing the killing of our fellow human beings.
I have to reluctantly hand it to the GOP, they’ve discovered yet another silver bullet to kill Democrats and split the Democratic Party vote. There is infinite territory for them to mine.
Personally, although I happen to be Jewish, I’m aghast at what Israel is doing right now. From a moral point of view and from a tactical point of view. It’s wrong, and it won’t lead to anything good in the world.
[This is the part where I get called “self-loathing”]
oh, this diary is in orange.
I would defend you at Dkos but I’ve been banned from that site.
Boo, it should not go unnoticed that you offer bizarre speculation about an Olmert-Rove cabal (“I am not even going to speculate about elaborate conspiracies wherein the Israelis launched an attack on Lebanon in order to save the Republicans bacon … Karl Rove has me cornered”) in the bizarre form of claiming that you are not going to offer bizarre speculation. A neat trick. Rovian, even.
Then again, the theory makes sense. After all, Israel has no reason to expect that it will continue to get strong US support whether Ds or Rs work inside the Capitol (everyone knows that Ned Lamont is David Duke wearing a rubber mask). Also, Israel can rest assured that crushing Beirut will be a slam-dunk net gain for Bushism, even though there are a zillion ways events could unfold in the opposite direction.
What’s ironic is that I have sympathy with many important things you say (“what Israel is doing makes no sense and will not bring them greater security”), although I object to the oversimplified absolutism of extreme formulations like “no sense.”
What I don’t understand is why you take things over the top. But since you do thake things over the top, it’s no surprise that you attact a chorus of other over-the-top folks, like Steely (“Lieberman and Feingold are indistinguishable, since they are both part of the Jewish Problem, and by the way, some of my best friends are Negros”) Dan.
I also don’t understand why you give Barnett a free pass, as I explained here.
Look, I never said that. I did ask, repeatedly, to tell me what Feingold’s position is on the latest round of bombings. Which you refuse to do. I mean, isn’t it on his website…hasn’t he offered to intro the Kucinich bill in the senate…
Steely: “I never said that.”
True. And I didn’t claim you did. Did you notice I was addressing Boo, not you?
“I did ask, repeatedly, to tell me what Feingold’s position is on the latest round of bombings. Which you refuse to do.”
I’m not going to tell you what his position is, because I don’t know what his position is, because I haven’t heard him make a statement about it.
That is very simple, and true, and obvious, but it doesn’t stop you from saying this: “I presume that since you haven’t answered that yet, its not an answer that you want me to know,” as if Feingold and I are conniving cohorts in the Big Jewish Conspiracy.
When you make foolish, unwarranted presumptions, you shouldn’t be surprised when people lose interest in having a conversation with you.
Aside from making a foolish, unwarranted presumption, you are practicing misdirection and evasion. You made an outrageous statement, to the effect that Feingold and Lieberman are indistinguishable, since the fact that they are both Jews is more important than anything else about them.
Here are your exact words, in case you forgot them already: “I’m a very unpopular guy for saying this, I think the entirety of the Jewish Senate delegation feels the same way about this administration as Joe Leiberman does.”
I invite you to consider the possibility that what makes you “a very unpopular guy” is not primarily that you would make that statement, but rather that you would make that statement and then lack the integrity to back it up, when challenged. In this regard you are wholly indistinguishable from countless wingnuts I’ve engaged in this exact way.
I asked you to explain yourself. If you had intellectual integrity, you would do so. Suggesting that Feingold is a villain because we haven’t heard from him in the last two weeks is not an answer, and it’s not a defense of the absurd statement you made (“the entirety of the Jewish Senate delegation feels the same way about this administration as Joe Leiberman does”). It’s simply a pathetic attempt to change the subject, to avoid answering the very simple, fair, sincere question I asked you.
“10 strong, stronger than any ethnic group other than rich white men”
(I can’t stand the extreme indenting, so I brought it down here.)
That exception you conveniently carve out (“other than … “) is a whopper. It’s sort of like saying “most Republicans voted for Kerry, aside from the the 90% who didn’t.” Anyway, is there some reason why evangelical Christians shouldn’t be considered an ethnic group? How about plain old garden-variety Christians?
If an ethnic group also happens to be a majority, does it cease to be an ethnic group? By the way, are Southerners an ethnic group? Are Yankees? Heterosexuals? Homeowners? Bikers? Old folks? Pagans? Goths? Trekkies?
People organize themselves into all sorts of groups for all sorts of reasons, including political reasons, and then they speak up to try to get what they want. This includes supporting politicians who support their interests. Ever hear of that system? It’s called democracy. It sucks, and it needs work, but we still like it.
Since we accept this system for everyone, we try to avoid singling out one group and claiming that their legal efforts within this system represent an ominous capitalized Problem or Question (and I realize you didn’t use the capitalization, but you might as well have, since the other contemporary users of that formulation are not shy about doing so).
“Rahm Emmanuel … is a volunteer for the Israeli army”
Proof, please. According to Wiki, he was a civilian volunteer in Israel during the Gulf War. Please let us know how this translates into being a military volunteer, in the present tense.
“I have to admit that I’m a little jealous. I wish there was a blackpac or even a peacepac at this point…”
It’s nice to get a candid glimpse of what’s really going on here: “my perception is that those people are more effectively organized than my people, and this makes me feel jealous, and this makes me feel justified in claiming that any apparent success on their part is proof of their wickedness.”
You still haven’t told me where the un Leiberman like Jewish Senator from Wisconsin stands on the latest Israeli atrocities. Is it a hard question to answer, okay, I’ll answer it. I’ll go to the Feingold website…give me a minute…
http://feingold.senate.gov/
….and nothing. Zippo. Nada. There he is standing with the troops, who fight a brave proxy war for Iraq….You wouldn’t even know, from reading this website, that there was a problem with killing Lebanese civilians.
Here’s the non Jewish Kucinich website. Go ahead contrast and compare. I dares you.
http://www.kucinich.us/
How about this: do you think Feingold should introduce the Kucinich bill in the US Senate…? Can we agree on that..?
By the way: Why do I think the rest of the Jewish delegation feels the same why? Their silence in the face of atrocities. Their lobbying on behalf of Leiberman. Their not so hidden Emperor Palpitine Dark Side hand in getting Bill Clinton to stump for Leiberman…
this is such bunk. Nearly the entire Democratic caucus has the exact same public stance as Feingold. Singling out Jews for taking the same position as gentiles is idiotic.
I think the gentiles do it because of AIPAC. Watch the fun that Cynthia McKinney is having during her reelection. I don’t think AIPAC has to lobby the Jewish delegation because they’re already an arm of the Israeli lobby (not everyone but Rahm, Leiberman, and Schumer certainly…) And perhaps, just perhaps, Jewish legislators, are afraid of AIPAC as well. Why hasn’t Feingold taken a more principled stand on the bombings? Perhaps he’s afraid of AIPAC, or maybe he’s afraid of those accidental plane crashes that only kill Democratic senators….
Dan, knock it off. Plane crashes in the winter in Minnesota are no evidence of a Jewish conspiracy. Your comments vary between the offensive and the asinine.
It wasn’t just Wellstone who died it was carnahan in Missouri as well. I mean, I’ll take my bad luck with the next guy, but when it disproportionately affects our side–I think we would’ve retained those two seats had their planes not “accidently” gone down. Furthermore, when we lost Wellstone we lost someone who probably would’ve been a leader for the anti war side. I used to think that kind of thing was just bad luck. I don’t anymore.
..Again, when the Santorum Leiberman plane goes down or the anthrax guys are found then I’ll rethink my paranoia…
By the way, that’s what turned me on the vote theft issue. Only democratic partisans seem to be affected by this. Over and over and over again. Who are the republicans who have lost their seats due to election fraud…evidence please.
And please point out my offensive posts. If they’re offensive, then I’ll apologize for that. But I’ll be happy to ask the same questions that I’ve asked of other posters: Who in the Jewish delegation has come out against the latest atrocities? Has there been a one? Are you “offensive” or “anti-semitic” for pointing out that ethnicity may play a role in this…? The floor is yours…
who in the entire democratic senate has condemned what is going on in Lebanon?
Actually, Kucinich has introduced a bill…but a pox on Obama’s and Hillary’s house if they’re silent as well…see? I can criticise your stance on the war even if you’re not Jewish. Go ahead. Call me anti black and anti feminist. It fits…
Uh, and this is probably isn’t a good time to mention this, but my half brother Chris Shropshire is running against an incumbent republican for a state house seat up in Clarion. He needs all the help he can get, despite being good looking and charismatic…
Kucinich is not a Senator.
It’s nice to get a candid glimpse of what’s really going on here: “my perception is that those people are more effectively organized than my people, and this makes me feel jealous, and this makes me feel justified in claiming that any apparent success on their part is proof of their wickedness.
I didn’t say that either. I will say that blacks are hated a lot more than Jewish people. That might change though if people sense that you’re putting the priorities of Israel above those of the United States. I do think that’s the Leiberman downward swing is partially about…
You’re fuckin’ using Wiki? Why not use tarot cards to get your info…
My info about Rahm comes from here. Feel free to debunk it as anti semitic as per usual instead of disputing the facts presented therein…
http://www.middleeast.org/archives/1998_10_20.htm
ISRAEL’S MAN IN THE WHITE HOUSE
MER – WASHINGTON – 19 Oct:
It was early 1991 and the Israeli/Jewish lobby wasn’t too happy with George Bush and Jim Baker. True they had followed Israel’s desires in destroying arch nemesis Iraq. True, the U.S./Israeli connection had never been closer; the flow of arms and money never greater.
But even so, Bush/Baker were under considerable pressure from the Arab client-regimes and segments of corporate America to push Israel abit, as evidenced at Madrid, in order to “stabilize” the Middle East, especially in the wake of the Gulf War. Furthermore, everyone knew the Bush/Baker duo was doing all it could to bring Rbin and Peres to power in Israel, removing Yitzhak Shamir from the scene. And the main elements of “the lobby” decided it was time to do all they could to send Bush and Baker packing.
Enter Rahm Emmanuel. Until 1978 a dual Israeli-American citizen, and a former officer in the Israeli army some allege (unsubstantiated), Emmanuel was an up and comer, a Jewish money man, a political fixer.
And he was essentially tasked by “the lobby” to join the Clinton campaign in Little Rock. Emmanuel had never met Bill Clinton. But allot of the big-boys in “the lobby” had, and they were increasingly putting their hopes, and their money, on Bill Clinton not only to retire and replace George Bush, but to do their things way in Washington.
A few months later, during the campaign, the President of AIPAC, the main front-organization in Washington of “the lobby”, was forced to resign after a recording of his bragging about his group’s tremendous clout was made public. “We have a dozen of our guys in Little Rock” the AIPAC head proudly proclaimed one afternoon. “And when Clinton is elected he’s going to be our man in Washington.”
One of those men was Rahm Emmanuel, who after 7 years at Clinton’s side leaves the White House today, his job completed.
Another of those men was Martin Indyk, at the time an Australian citizen heading up the lobby’s think-tank in Washington. Indyk and many many others remain on the job — he is now the Assistant Secretary of State for the Middle East.
“I’ve been very proud of the work I’ve done for his president to push his agenda,” Rahm told an interviewer a few days ago. But on some key issues, most especially matters Middle Eastern, Bill Clinton really didn’t have an agenda of his own. Far more scandalous than anything relating to Monica, or anything relating to a few foreign dollars in recent campaigns, Bill Clinton’s near complete capitulation and sell-out of U.S. policies and interests to the Israeli/Jewish lobby is the scandal no one in the American political or media establishment dares investigate, or even mention.
And more about Mossad’s man in the US:
From Counterpunch. (This also feels like the Pennsylvania senate endorsement process.)
http://www.counterpunch.org/andrew12092005.html
At a recent meeting of House Republicans, members ruminating on the disastrous state of their party reportedly murmured with gloomy jocularity about the administration of “President Hastert”. A CounterPuncher familiar with the proceedings reports “they were only half joking”.
Yet, as they contemplate political ruin in next year’s election, these Republicans can take solace in the fact that, if defeated, their replacements may not differ in any meaningful way on important issues of the day. That at least is the hope and dream of Democratic apparatchik Rahm Emmanuel and the corporate toadies he represents. Ominously, Emmanuel, a relict of the Clinton White House, heads the Democratic National Campaign Committee.
As such, he decides which candidates for the House should get money and other support from the national party. At a time when any fool can see that the public hates the war more this month than last, and will hate it even more next month and the month after that, Emmanuel is doing his best to recruit candidates, preferably rich ones, guaranteed to eschew vocal opposition to the war.
Clear evidence for this proclivity is evident in the race to succeed Henry Hyde, in Chicago’s 6th District.
In the last election progressive candidate Christine Cegalis actually got 44.2 per cent of the vote against the sixteen-term Hyde, despite being outspent $700,000 to $160,000 in a conservative district with no elected Democrats at all.
Following this commendable showing, Cegalis figured that with Hyde retiring and the Republicans melting down, she stood a better than even chance of garnering the seat in 2006.
However it seems that in Emmanuel’s opinion, Cegalis stinks. Never mind that excellent record against the giant Hyde, forget her well-crafted support network in the Chicago district, Cegalis has not yet raised a million dollars and, even more damningly, she is calling for troop withdrawal from Iraq. So Emmanuel set out to recruit a more suitable candidate. Initially, he approached two millionaires and urged them, serially, to run against Cegalis in the primary.
They refused. Now he is pinning his hopes on a double amputee women Iraq veteran, Tammy Duckworth
Duckworth, who is not from the district, has ignited hopes at DCCC headquarters that she would campaign on a “pro-business/centrist platform”. Queried by a Chicago Sun Times columnist for her opinion on the war, she replied, “There’s good and bad in everything”.
That sort of equivocation must certainly have commended her to Emmanuel, who greeted Congressman Murtha’s fervent and well-informed denunciation of the war with the words “Jack Murtha went out and spoke for Jack Murtha” and has declared that “At the right time we will have a position” on the war.
Cegalis’ position is clear: “I support Jack Murtha”, she tells CounterPunch. “If Jack Murtha is calling for withdrawal, then I go with that.”
If Emmanuel and his like succeed in displacing Cegalis and similar candidates, thereby undercutting any claim the Democrats might have to either principle or votes, he will only be concluding the work he began in the 1990s.
Cegalis reports that the economy has become the key issue in DuPage County, roughly coterminous with the district. “DuPage has lost jobs for the first time in fifty years.” As manufacturing jobs disappear to Mexico or China, voters can mull the benefits of free trade and the Democrats who fostered it.
Most clear-minded observers would agree that among the mortal body blows that have brought the Democrats to their present ebb, the passage of NAFTA in 1993, with consequent evisceration of the American industrial economy, must count as among the most lethal.
Key to that passage was Emmanuel, who directed the Clinton White House operation to get the treaty passed by any means necessary.
The inevitable consequences of misery and want inflicted on Americans and Mexicans alike did not of course hinder his career, which took him, following his departure from the White House in 1998, to a well upholstered post in a Chicago banking firm before he won election to Dan Rostenkowski’s old Chicago seat.
Now, with the Democrats presented by their opponents with their best chance in years, Emmanuel is ready to ensure that, come what may, nothing will really change, except for the worse.
Andrew Cockburn is the co-author, with Patrick Cockburn, of Out of the Ashes: the Resurrection of Saddam Hussein.
By the way, for the record, I’m confident that there would have been one Jewish senator who would have stood against both the Iraq war and even offered open critiques against the Israelis and that’s Paul Wellstone. Unfortunately, he died in a completely accidental airplane crash, which, if you think about it, probably furthered AIPAC’s interests…What luck. Yet again. I wish I was as lucky as AIPAC. I would have ten lottos by now…
I’m not a contemporary user of that formulation. IN fact one time I wrote this:
Well, I just wanted to post this in response to Fascist Nazi Mark Konrad, who is one of the few people who at least proudly owns up to the title. I was amused by the fascist nazi’s defense over at Dr. Weevil–a defense which actually made sense but more on that later–but be warned: I’m not a white European, at least not mostly. In fact, it could be stated plainly that you would find my ethnicity as appalling as that of the Jews that you hate so much. I also want to state this: As an American writer–at war with GOP Jingoists and Science Racists and Despicable Dogs–that I’m not only inspired and enlightened by the work of Allen Ginsberg, but: Joe Haldeman, Robert Silverberg, Woody Allen, Harlan Ellison, Marv Wolfman, Stan Lee, Steve Gerber, Noam Chomsky, Albert Einstein, Stephen Speilberg, Cory Doctorow, Cyril Kornbluth, Isaac Asimov, William Shatner, Leonard Nimoy, Paul Auster, Robert Bloch, Jules Feiffer, David Mamet, Norman Mailer, Susan Sontag, Darren Aronofsky, J.D. Sallinger, Art Spiegelman, Don Byron, Lenny Kravitz, Stan Getz, Avishai Cohen, Bob Dylan, Eugene Levy, Winona Ryder, Buck Henry, Mort Sahl, Jerry Seinfeld and last, but not least, local Pittsburgh writer Mike Chabon. I might note, that it’s a certainty that not all of these people–the ones who are alive–may agree with what is written at American Samizdat or here, especially about Israel. But the disagreements should be based on argument, not ethnicity. Furthermore: all our lives would be the lesser without their bright, gleaming lights.
Oh, by the way, Mark, assuming that you’re real and not some kind of counterprop plant, I highly endorse Gene Expression for your viewing pleasure. Post often. They’re your kind of people, all dressed up for the future.
Yeah, I know, I can quote all the Ginsberg I’m an anti semite anyway. Keep doing that and you’ll anti semitism a good name…
Here are your exact words, in case you forgot them already: “I’m a very unpopular guy for saying this, I think the entirety of the Jewish Senate delegation feels the same way about this administration as Joe Leiberman does.”
I say that because I was banned from Dkos for saying the kinds of things that I’m saying now. Again, look at that Feingold website…those lebanese civilians just don’t exist. I don’t think that’s an accident.
This just came in through the Internets tubes:
Feingold statement on Israel. Doesn’t sound like Paul Wellstone or Dennic Kucinich to me. Just saying:
I have no idea who you are but someone at BT needs to post this so you can
stop arguing about it. Frankly, I’m surprised that no one seems to know
where he stands since he’s the progressives’ so-called next big hope. It’s
on his web site for all to see and has been since July 14.
I can’t post it there because I always get attacked now, so please go ahead
and do it. Thank you.
http://feingold.senate.gov/~feingold/statements/06/07/20060714.htm
Statement of U.S. Senator Russ Feingold
On the Hezbollah Attacks on Israel
July 14, 2006
I stand firmly with the people of Israel and their government as they
defend themselves against these outrageous attacks. The kidnapping of
Israeli soldiers and missile attacks against Israeli citizens are
unacceptable and cannot be tolerated. The first steps toward establishing
peace must begin with the unconditional and immediate return of the
kidnapped Israeli soldiers. Lebanon, Syria, Iran and countries throughout
the region must also condemn the actions of Hezbollah, Hamas, and other
groups committed to blocking the peace process and must take strong actions
to return stability to the region immediately.
Wow what an Anti Leiberman. Right. As if the Feingold website wasn’t proof enough…
I asked you a simple question. I challenged you to back up this provocative assertion of yours: “Rahm Emmanuel … is a volunteer for the Israeli army.”
Subsequent to my asking you that question, you’ve posted about 2000 words here. Number of those words which answer the question I asked: zero.
“My info about Rahm comes from here. Feel free to debunk it as anti semitic as per usual instead of disputing the facts presented therein…”
This is the closest your source comes to presenting relevants “facts:” “Enter Rahm Emmanuel. Until 1978 a dual Israeli-American citizen, and a former officer in the Israeli army some allege (unsubstantiated).”
In other words, the statement you made (alleging a military connection in the present tense) goes beyond what your own source admits is unsubstantiated (that he once was an officer).
And this is what you call proof? I don’t have to bother “disputing the facts presented therein,” since there are no relevant “facts presented therein.”
Being utterly careless about the difference between facts and unsubstantiated speculation is something else that makes you indistinguishable from a typical wingnut. In other words, you make shit up.
By the way, I also have a small problem with an article that doesn’t bother to give me the name of the author.
You also exhibit another unmistakable wingnut characteristic, which is to repeatedly evade simple and fair questions by belching forth a large quantity of speculation which has only a vague relationship to the question you were asked. And yes, this often involves confusing matters by gratuitously pasting a large amount of text which should have been incorporated by reference.
“Feel free to debunk it as anti semitic as per usual”
Indeed, it’s entirely fair to characterize middleast.org as anti-Semitic, since they have no problem hosting reams of blatantly, classically anti-Semitic material, such as multiple articles promoting “The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion” (link, link). And this: “though they change their names and publicly deny their religion, most Jews still study the Babylonian Talmud, still hold secret Bar Mitzvahs in dark Boston cellars, and still despise Christians, who the Talmud states are merely sub-human animals, to be killed at leisure.”
Your eagerness to associate yourself with such a source helps to remove any lingering doubt about your own status as a bigot.
“I was banned from Dkos”
If BooMan had more self-respect, he would do the same thing. Aside from bigotry, you have a problem with integrity. Funny how that goes together.
“Yeah, I know, I can quote all the Ginsberg I’m an anti semite anyway”
It would be better if you paid attention to what I actually say, instead of putting words in my mouth. Until just now I hadn’t claimed you’re an “anti semite.” But I do claim that now. What I also claim, because you’ve made it obvious, is that you lack integrity and are therefore a complete waste of time.
I think you misread the statement. The story doesn’t say his army activity isn’t verified, but his role as a political fixer…By the way, the big issue that you’re supposed to be taking on isn’t Rahm, but the Feingold statement on the recent bombings. Just trying to help out here….
“The story doesn’t say his army activity isn’t verified, but his role as a political fixer”
These are the exact words from the story: “Enter Rahm Emmanuel. Until 1978 a dual Israeli-American citizen, and a former officer in the Israeli army some allege (unsubstantiated), Emmanuel was an up and comer, a Jewish money man, a political fixer.”
Is English your first language? Maybe it’s not, and therefore you have some peculiar basis for claiming that the words “allege” and “unsubstantiated” do not modify what those words immediately follow (“a former officer in the Israeli army”) and instead, rather, modify two words (“political fixer”) that come three phrases away, at the very end of the sentence.
Admittedly, the sentence is poorly written. It would be nice to ask the author what they meant. That would be tough to do, however, since the author’s name is not provided (another highly peculiar and revealing fact which you gloss over). What is also not provided is a shred of proof for the claims made in this sentence, or for most of the other claims made in the article.
Anyway, nice job doging the issue, which is that nowhere in this sentence, or anywhere in the article, is proof to support this claim you made: “Rahm Emmanuel … is a volunteer for the Israeli army.”
Anyway, please don’t stop, because you’re doing an excellent job of clearing up any lingering doubt about the fact that you’re completely full of shit. You’re also making it more and more obvious why you got booted off of dKos.
“the big issue that you’re supposed to be taking on isn’t Rahm, but the Feingold statement on the recent bombings”
Let me know who put you in charge of deciding what is “the big issue” that I’m “supposed to be taking on.” Also, nice job job glossing over the irony of the fact that it you was you, and no one else, who dragged Rahm into this discussion, as a complete red herring to distract attention from your outrageous statement about Feingold (that he “feels the same way about this administration as Joe Leiberman does”).
And with regard to Feingold, it’s deeply entertaining to notice the humor of you acting as if I am responsible for sundry statements Feingold has made or has not made, when you are demonstrating a vivid track record of refusing to take responsiibility for your own gross misstatements, moments after you make them.
Why don’t you treat us to an explanation of how it’s not your own fault that you’re a bigot and a liar, because you are simply forced to be those things as an innocent victim of the Big Jewish Conspiracy.
lol.
Do you have some kind of bot delivering that deep, thoughtful, respectful, helpful, substantive response, or is it actually the hard work of a human brain? Funny how it’s hard to tell the difference.
Anyway, it’s helpful to know where you stand. Steely should tell his pals at his other favorite web site that you have created a congenial environment for the likes of him and them.
uh. I guess you miscontrued my laughter. I was laughing with you.
“I was laughing with you.”
Needless to say, I appreciate that helpful clarification. I apologize for making the wrong assumption and presenting you with some unearned insults.
I intepreted you as I did because you had said nothing earlier to express any concern whatsoever about Steely’s many questionable (to put it mildly) assertions.
Since you have suggested that you wish to “supply a platform for the full cacophony of modern leftist political debate,” I think you would be wise to avoid creating the impression that you think the idea of “full cacophony” is an excuse to embrace willful misinformation.
Also, you have said nothing to address what I described here as what looks to me like bizarre speculation on your part, delivered in a bizarre manner.
I realize that could be because you didn’t notice the first three letters of that comment of mine, which addressed the comment to you. Steely missed those first three letters too, and treated my comment as if it was addressed to him, even though it wasn’t.
Anyway, your marginally disguised (and ludicrously illogical) insinuation that Israel’s top military priority is to “save the Republicans bacon” is cut from the same disreputable cloth as Steely’s quite undisguised insinuations about “dual loyalties” and “Jewish money” and “the Jewish question,” which in turn are cut from the same disreputable cloth as the material at Steely’s other favorite site, where one finds statements like this: “The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion is a document which should be read by all. No other single document provides us with such a clear understanding of why the world is gradually moving towards a One World Government, controlled by an irreproachable hidden hand.”
And this: “Jewish Supremacism operates on at least an equal footing with Luciferian Freemasonry in the creation of that diabolical political nightmare euphemistically called the New World Order.”
If you sit on your hands while people like Steely turn your blog into a cesspool (after they were booted from Kos as a result of attempting the same shenanigans there), then you won’t be running a blog. You’ll be running a cesspool.
So I’m glad to know that I misinterpreted your remark (“lol”), but I think you can see my reasons for doing so.
i thought you were doing a fine job of rebutting him.
As for the conspiracy over the timing of Phase Two:Syria, it seems to have been pre-ordained. We have been speculating for months over just what would trigger it, and thankfully it did not require a false-flag operation. Instead it only took a molehill.
I absolutely do not believe there was any chance of the summer passing into fall without the actions we are seeing on our television getting under way.
THe fact that I have been predicting it, and Steven has been predicting it for months, kind of leads me to see these things this way. I’d like to think it also gives me a little extra credibility. It’s not like I’m engaging in revisioninst history. I have been saying all along that Phase Two was coming and that it would be driven by two things: low poll numbers (leading to possible loss of one or both houses), and the shortness of time before before their second term ends up.
Israel has a real security problem. Of that, I have no doubt. But Yglesias puts it best. This reaction has nothing to do with a little cross-border excursion, nor a kidnapping. That just kicked started a very poorly motivated campaign that required the go ahead of BushCo.
Hey, at least you didn’t ban me! You have my deep respect for doing that. On the other hand, if you point out Russ Feingold is the Anti Leiberman it would help if he didn’t issue a press release espousing the exact same views…I don’t find that effective rebutaling…
“I thought you were doing a fine job of rebutting him.”
Thanks. I see how I was misinterpreting your silence. My mistake. Thanks for explaining.
“Phase Two:Syria”
I totally agree that a very high priority for Bush is some kind of October Surprise, and preferably it would involve finding lots of new things for Americans to blow up. However, I think you take the point too far. Yes, there is definitely some overlap of interests between Olmert and Bush. But I think it’s a big mistake to imagine that the overlap is anywhere close to perfect.
“it seems to have been pre-ordained”
I realize only a very naive person would fail to realize that Israel has been planning this for a long time. However, again, I think you take the point too far. I think there are many reasons why Israel chose this exact moment. I think proximity to 11/7/06 is a factor, but far from the only factor, and not necessarily a major factor.
There’s no question that Bush has just been dealt some new cards, and there’s no question that he will work overtime to try to turn them into a winning hand. There is also ample reason to think that the odds are against him.
Most importantly, there are numerous possible rationales (including some that are dumb, immoral, and/or self-destructive) for Israel to be doing what they’re doing. The idea that their highest priority is to make sure that Dubya has some new cards to play with (“the Israelis launched an attack on Lebanon in order to save the Republicans bacon”) is ludicrous and highly illogical, in my opinion.
“thankfully it did not require a false-flag operation”
I think you undermine your credibility when you casually suggest, without offering any proof, that Israel routinely does that sort of thing, as if you don’t realize that this is another classic anti-Jewish canard: “Numerous writers … have pointed out Israel’s involvement with 911. …. We should know that Jews have a consistent history of fraudulent actions resulting in the loss of lives of millions of human beings to accomplish their purpose. False flag operations are not new for Jews … [it] is a technique that they have employed in numerous situations for hundreds even thousands of years.”
This is an example of your rhetoric, like Steely’s, vividly demonstrating that certain rightists and certain leftists have an identical bigotry toward Jews.
“I have been saying all along that Phase Two was coming”
Yes, you and a lot of other people, including me. However, I have explained why I think you’re making certain leaps in judgment that are simply illogical.
“[the kidnapping] just kicked started a very poorly motivated campaign that required the go ahead of BushCo”
I think you’re greatly overestimating the amount of influence Bush has, with regard to short-term military decisions by Israel. Yes, the US has a lot of long-term influence over Israel, but that’s very different from claiming that they don’t pee without getting permission from us first.
Anyway, keeping track of the mutually exclusive (and sophomorically oversimplified) conspiracy theories is quite a challenge. Are the Jews the puppets of Bush? I thought it was supposed to be the other way around.
“Yglesias puts it best”
I have a lot of respect for his analysis. I think it might be helpful to notice that essentially the same analysis can currently be found on the opinion pages of Ha’Aretz, practically on a daily basis.
While I respect the MY analysis, I also think it’s possible he’s underestimating Israel, just with regard to the quality of the analysis that underlies their current behavior. I think it’s entirely possible Israel is making a mistake (both morally and strategically). I think it’s also possible they are much smarter than you, Matt and me, and they have good reasons behind their actions.
I realize this sounds like Bushist drivel (“trust us; we know exactly what we’re doing, although it’s all a big secret so don’t expect us to explain anything to you”). It’s true that there are certain obvious similarities, at least from a distance, between Olmert’s style and Bush’s style. But I think it’s a big mistake to gloss over a deep difference: while Bush obviously is way over his head, with regard to comprehending incomprehensible ME politics, the Israelis actually have a very intimate familiarity with the complex political and military environment that surrounds them. So whether you support them or oppose them, it’s not smart to underestimate them.
Einstein said everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler. In other words, I think you’re going too far, in a number of different ways.
Oh just call Booman an anti semite and ask him to ban himself. The tease is too much to bear…
I also have never linked to those blatantly anti semitic sits. My questions and answers are a bit more narrow: Does the Jewish delegation in congress act as a proponent for Israeli interests? Furthermore, have Jews within the Democratic caucus put the interests of Israel above the interests of not only the party but the country in their pursuit of Israel friendly policies (the proxy war in Iraq, the latest Israeli atrocities)?
I think those answers are “yes.” And I base that not just on their ethnicity but what they actually fuckin do. They act like Israeli partisans, period. Please provide evidence to the contrary. I’d like to see it.
By the way, I’m an atheist so I have no hunt in the christian vs islam vs judaism hunt. I think they’re all pretty bad! And they lead to destructive irrational thinking…it also encourages a kind of tribalism…
I mean, you’re the one who pointed out that Feingold was the big progressive jewish hope, the jewish senator who didn’t accidently die in a plane crash who could take on Israel. Well, he’s clearly not.
As for Rahm, I can’t find another source for his direct involvement in the Israeli. I think my source is confusing because of the wording of the sentence and because Wikipedia can be edited by Rahm and his staff that’s not exactly a reliable source either. However, what you didn’t rebut is that Rahm, and Schumer here with Casey, has actively seeked out people who don’t want an immediate pullout! Want to take it nice and easy because we’re doing great jobs there…
And then there’s the latest from Rahm:
The New York Times curtain-raises the meeting with Maliki’s likely wish-list. LINK
DCCC Chairman Rahm Emanuel (D-IL), Rep. Jan Schakowsky (D-IL), and Rep. Rosa DeLauro (D-CT) are circulating a “Dear Colleague” letter to other members of the House, urging House Speaker Dennis Hastert (R-IL) to cancel Wednesday’s address to Congress by Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki on the theory that his condemnation of Israeli attacks on Lebanon put him at odds with U.S. policy.
The letter reads: “The Speaker’s podium reflects our nation’s values. We the Members of the House, under your leadership, decide who receives that honor, and the list should not include anyone whose interests conflict with the United States.”
The Democratic House members wrote to inquire about how Maliki was chosen to receive the honor, and have asked for an apology.
Emanuel spokeswoman Kathleen Connery tells ABC News that as of last night, they had “approximately 20 signatures.” Emanuel’s staff is not going to release the letter until mid-morning when they are done collecting signatures and have forwarded the letter to the Speaker.
I don’t know. Sounds like an Israeli partisan even if he didn’t serve. And for the record: The foreign policy interests of the US and Israel aren’t the same. Period.
Doesn’t Rahm back the war? Doesn’t he actively seek out candidates who don’t want a quick exit? He want’s a democracy but only when its fruits say only nice things about Israel? Partisan partisan partisan. Dual loyalities. Actually, I’m not even sure that they’re dual. Looks like he only favors one country…
“I also have never linked to those blatantly anti semitic sits”
It’s quite fascinating to watch how you can’t manage to go more than a sentence or two without making up more complete bullshit, which you heap on top of your existing pile of slightly less fresh bullshit. How wingnutty of you.
Since you claim you “have never linked to those blatantly anti semitic sits,” I suppose it must have been a completely different Steelydan who recently posted a comment which included a link to middleeast.org.
Since you have a short attention span, let me remind you that I have posted ample proof (link, link, link) that middleeast.org is indeed a “blatantly anti semitic” site.
You and the other Steelydan (the one who obviously isn’t shy about promoting a “blatantly anti semitic” site) should work out some kind of handle-sharing deal, because you can see how the inevitable confusion doesn’t help anyone.
“have Jews within the Democratic caucus put the interests of Israel above the interests of not only the party but the country”
In my opinion, you’re free to ask any sort of question, and to hold any sort of opinion. What you’re not free to do is make shit up, and I’ve pointed out that you do that, repeatedly.
Here’s a reminder: Feingold “feels the same way about this administration as Joe Leiberman does.”
Here’s another reminder: “Rahm Emmanuel … is a volunteer for the Israeli army.”
Here’s another reminder: “the story doesn’t say his army activity isn’t verified, but his role as a political fixer”
Here’s another reminder: “I also have never linked to those blatantly anti semitic sits”
“you’re the one who pointed out that Feingold was the big progressive jewish hope, the jewish senator who didn’t accidently die in a plane crash who could take on Israel.”
Uh, no. I merely pointed out that he leads the Kos presidential poll. Please don’t put words in my mouth. There you go again, still making shit up.
“As for Rahm, I can’t find another source for his direct involvement in the Israeli.”
Your words (“another”) imply that you ever provided any source at all. Nice job glossing over the fact that even the one “source” you did provide (from an article by an anonymous author, posted on a blatantly bigoted site, which presents not a shred of proof for any of its important assertions) didn’t support the claim you made (“Rahm Emmanuel … is a volunteer for the Israeli army”), since it referred only to his involvement in the past tense (“a former officer in the Israeli army”), not in the present. And of course this is all putting aside the crucial word “unsubstantiated.”
Anyway, since you think it’s perfectly fine to make shit up, it’s no surprise that your idea of an authoritative source is some anonymous character who also appears to like making shit up.
“Wikipedia can be edited by Rahm”
I agree that Wiki is not necesarily an authoritative source. But I’m not the one who made a provocative claim about Emanuel. You’re the one who did that (“Rahm Emmanuel … is a volunteer for the Israeli army”). And you still lack the integrity to admit that you made that statement as if it’s a proven fact, even though you have no source whatsoever (let alone anything remotely resembling a credible source).
In other words, you’re not just someone who makes shit up. You’re someone who makes shit up and then pretends they didn’t. How wingnutty of you.
Of course, let’s remember that all this time I’ve been giving you a completely free pass for this even more provocative statement you made: “Rahm Emmanuel … is a … rumored Mossad agent.”
You gave yourself a little tiny fig leaf of protection there by admitting up-front that it’s “only” a rumor. You also made it clear you think it’s fine to spread deeply libelous rumors in the absence of a shred of proof. How responsible and honorable of you.
By the way, did you hear the rumor that Philip Shropshire was hired by Rove to help spread the idea that leftists are idiotic dishonest racist assholes? It’s only a rumor, mind you, but it seems perfectly reasonable to treat this as a proven fact, given what you “actually fuckin do.” As someone once said, “Please provide evidence to the contrary. I’d like to see it.”
If and when you take responsibility for all the shit you’ve made up, I’ll consider the possibility that you’re something other than a complete waste of time. Until then, I won’t.
When I have more time, I’m going to respond to this in full. Perhaps I’m missing something. Did he just say, even after I showed him the Feingold press release, that Feingold isn’t a partisan for Israel, huh? Wha? Just to add something: I don’t that makes him fit to be president. In fact, when you hold the interests of another country over that of the US I think they call that treason…as opposed to criticising the silly destructive wars that the country is in….
Is there anything there about the newest Rahm Emmanuel stuff I’ve posted where, as I read it, the interests of the US are the same as Israel’s…?
Did I miss something? I caught him calling me an anti-semitic dick for the 8000th time…nothing on the Rahm thing…no wonder you want to ban me. You’re just like Leiberman running a rally. No dissent can be tolerated. What a good thing for the Democratic party. Be terrible if that guy lost…
“When I have more time, I’m going to respond to this in full.”
English translation: “now that it’s been clearly shown that I have no integrity whatsoever, I’m going to sneak away until long after this thread goes completely dark and stale, and then return at some point and post some more nonsense which will make me feel better even though no one will ever see it.”
“Did he just say … that Feingold isn’t a partisan for Israel”
Nice job trying to change the subject. I didn’t ask you to defend your assertion that Feingold is a partisan for Israel. I asked you to do something infinitely simpler, to defend this assertion: “Rahm Emmanuel … is a volunteer for the Israeli army.”
The simple truth is that you can’t defend that assertion (along with many other assertions you’ve made). In other words, you make things up and then refuse to take responsibility for making doing so. Here’s what this makes you: a complete waste of time.
The question of whether or not Feinfold is a partisan for Israel is an interesting and legitimate question. However, discussing that question (like discussing most questions) ultimately requires makng references to what are known as facts. Unfortunately, you’ve proven that you don’t give a shit about facts. In other words, discussing such a question with you (or any question) is a complete waste of time.
“Did I miss something?”
Yes, you definitely missed something that most of learned in kindergarten, which is that once you are caught making shit up no one will take you seriously.
“No dissent can be tolerated.”
Dissent is fine. Making shit up isn’t. I realize that this simple and crucial distinction is completely over your head.
Well, some of us have to work for a living. We’re not paid to anonymously spout pro zionist crap on a message board, although its nice work if you can get it. Perhaps you can send me a resume…
Look, if you want to beat me in this debate here’s what you have to do: provide evidence that the Jewish delegation in congress isn’t a just a rubber stamp for the latest Israeli racist wall/white phosphur/UN targeting atrocities…It should be easy for you to do. The fact that it isn’t should tell you something…
“some of us have to work for a living”
What I do for a living is none of your fucking business. Aside from that, your gratuituous (not to mention deeply irrelevant) insinuation that I don’t work for a living (or worse, that I’m being “paid to anonymously spout pro zionist crap on a message board”) is yet another vivid demostration of how you find it impossible to speak without continuously making shit up.
“anonymously”
There is nothing dishonorable about writing anonymously. The history of anonymous writing started long before blogs were invented, and there are countless highly reputable examples in the worlds of fiction, non-fiction, and journalism.
Of course the practice of making shit up also has a long history, and it’s never been reputable, and never will be, but that obviously doesn’t stop you from doing it pretty much every time you open your mouth.
Anyway, it’s highly wingnutty of you to, again, grasp at straws and try to change the subject now that it’s clear that you’re full of shit.
“pro zionist crap”
If you’re in a position to use facts to prove that anything I’ve said is “crap,” you should do so. In the absence of such facts, this accusation of yours (that I’ve posted “crap”) is nothing more than a waste of innocent electrons, like almost everything else you say.
“if you want to beat me in this debate”
I don’t have to “beat” you. You’ve beaten yourself by clearly demonstrating that you’re the kind of person who repeatedly makes shit up.
“here’s what you have to do”
I missed the part where you got appointed to be the person whose job it is to tell me what I “have to do.”
“provide evidence that the Jewish delegation in congress … “
One more time: it’s a good idea to discuss important, complicated, interesting, challenging questions (and you occassionally seem to be on the verge of raising such questions). It’s just not a good idea to discuss them with someone who has no integrity. That’s you.
Booman,
I disagree with the premise of your argument: “What’s matters is that the Israelis have acted and the Dems are on the defensive. The Weekly Standard lays it all out. For their purposes, they note that the Daily Kos front pagers are not discussing the issue….”
When did DKos, Josh Marshall and Kevin Drum gain so much power within the Democratic Party? Josh Marshall and Kevin Drum, as noted by others, have been discussing the Israeli/Lebanon conflict. Many other liberal bloggers have also been talking about it at length, such as Americablog, Glenn Greenwald, Huffington and many others. It’s ridiculous to cite three examples and then claim they speak for the entire blogosphere, let alone the Democratic party.
Nor do I agree with you that the Dems can’t win on this. What Israel’s using disproportionate force that will backfire. While Bush refuses to negotiate with the principle players, Iran and Syria. Bush has also allowed the Palestinian situation to get out of hand. His unilateral cowboy diplomacy had been making a bad situation worse for 6 years. There is plenty the Democrats can run on. Did you hear what Kerry had to say recently? [Just one example.]
Three different news programs I saw today had essentially the same pictures of Lebanese ambulances with bullet holes around and a rocket hole basically in the middle of the red cross on top and with red crosses clearly visible elsewhere. Pro- or anti-whoever, Americans are not going to rest easy with such clear evidence of war crimes before their very eyes. I’ve heard it said that Vietnam was lost on the 6-o’clock news night after night: so far, Israel’s invasion of Lebanon is a PR disaster and images like the ambulances and kids with apparently white phosporus burns aren’t going to turn things in their favor.
Unlike DhinMI, I have never been offended by your efforts. He can be such a ne’er do well, attacking the messenger, without attacking message. You’re a net positive, unlike DHinMI. In fact, you’re much better than “net positive.” You’re a great poster. Fortunately, I don’t need DKOS to read your posts, tho I’m glad you post over there, just as I’m glad a lot of folks cross-post. Even Billmon, one of the greatest bloggers of all, and who seems to be on steroids lately, has posted on FDL, which is no slouch of a site. I like that. This is a very good site. One of the “tops.” Thanks. DH can take long leap off a short bridge. He’s such message controller. Often, a “dick.” Not that he does not have knowledge and analytical capability…he does… but he’s just often a self-serving dick. Please keep up your good work. It is appreciated. Let me know when fund-raising time comes around. I like the bloggers I like.
he is afraid of you. Unlike myself. I’m not afraid of either of you. I’m here to learn. I know what I know, with my own personal and empirical reservations, whereas you both are very knowledgeable about a lot of shit of which I know little. So be it. My work is respected, as is yours.
What is sad is that DH could be a great poster (intellectual) in his realm of discussion, as well, just like EmptyWheel still is, no doubt, but he has chosen otherwise, seemingly based on some idealogical adherence to some Lieberman-like idealogy: win at all costs, even at cost of honesty.
The virulence with which he tried, and to a large extent succeeded in running you out of DKOS tonight based on his vitriol, was notable for is basis in fear, the specifics of which I don’t understand, but the basics of which I can smell. Get you shit together, DH. Be honest. You will lose this battle, in the long term.
It’s time for us to be a bit more pragmatic. Because so far, more even than the necessity of an ambivalence towards the policies of Israel, THIS is our major weakness.
We have to talk the talk to take back the walk. We all know what we have to say if we want to win in November (voting machines permitting – another topic!!!)
The most effective (and smartest, if we want to win back Congress) talk – actually borrows from Rove’s playbook. Why? Because it WORKS!
“In this War on Terror (gag) we must make hard choices, and sometimes supporting the lesser of two evils is the only choice. Israel has real elections, it’s a real democracy. It is just trying to Protect an Internationally Recognized Border (with Lebanon). Hezbollah, on the other hand, is a puppet of Iran Since Israel UNILATERALLY left Lebanon in 2000, Iran has armed Hezbollah to the teeth, with the goal of driving Israel, the region’s only democracy, into the Mediteranean and further destabilizing the region. This furthers the Islamic Fundamentalists’ goals.”
PERIOD. That’s the talk we must talk if we are to walk the walk (into Leadership in Washington (gag) in November.
Everything else is useless posturing.
The stakes are simply too high to fall into our usual pitfalls : infighting, holier than thou thinking, making distinctions that are lost on the electoral public.
Once we have a handle on the Congress, we will act with fairness and wisdom. Plenty of time for that – first let’s not shoot ourselves in the collective foot: LET’S GET ELECTED!
Israel sucks. That useless country has caused more trouble than it’s worth. Good job League of Nations! Pull out ALL support and let these sweaty, angry, irrational middle easterners fight it out amongst themselves.
Leaving religion out of this, who were the people, organizations, lobbyists and government employees that illegally passed classified information back and forth between US, Israel and Iran?
please excuse (and remove if possible) the double post. I got a rejection on my first try, and then tried again.
Once more, sorry
Wow! I see you have done. Thanks for that. Good maintenance: 3 stars!
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