[Update: A poll on “Big Eddie’s” site right now asks if you think 9/11 was an inside job. Feel free to weigh in.]
I asked Kyle if I could post this in full, because I think these questions do indeed need answering.
———-
Kyle F. Hence — 9/11 CitizensWatch — August 3, 2006
Recent articles in corporate media examine deception and lying by the Department of Defense relative to the attacks of September 11th 2001. They shed light on an effective cover-up by the 9/11 Commission in its refusal to bring Government deception to the American people by way of their discredited 9/11 Report. Links to these articles follow as do 11 questions which these revelations and NORAD tapes beg to be asked and which must be answered:
Washington Post
9/11 Panel Suspected Deception by Pentagon
Allegations Brought to Inspectors General
Vanity Fair
9/11 Live: The NORAD Tapes
The New York Times
New Tapes Disclose Confusion Within the Military on Sept. 11
=============
The real and problematic confusion and fog is one which is seemingly preventing the corporate media from grappling with any of the following pressing questions which have been advanced for years by the 9/11 families, advocates and independent researchers.
Here are Eleven Questions that the corporate media have thus far refused to raise or attempt to answer in their examination of the NORAD tapes and related issues:
Who was responsible for scheduling multiple war games and terror exercises involving aircraft for Sept. 11th
Who moved “Global Guardian” normally scheduled for October to September?
Who designed the war games to involve ‘hijackings’?
Who planned and scheduled the movement of Airforce aircraft north to Canada, Alaska and Greenland?
Who planned the terror exercise at the NRO (National Reconnaissance Office) involving an evacuation in response to threat from the air?
Who was “hands-on” responsible for coordinating all the war games the morning of September 11th?
Who would have been responsible for turning off the war games to enable a timely real world response to the attacks?
How were as many as 21 false radar blips or possible targets (per Jane Garvey) inserted into FAA radar screens?
Who was responsible for the identification of ghost flight 11 which allegedly continued to fly south past Manhattan and which may have caused NORAD’s Langley intercept jets to vector North toward NYC rather than D.C.?
[NOTE: John Farmer of the 9/11 Commission said to me personally that the 9/11 Commission was never able to identify the individual for this flight 11 information–to resolve this anomaly.]
Why was there no reference to the pattern of 9/11 Commission cover-up including that of Able Danger as revealed by Capt. Scott Philpott?
=======
The bottom line question that corporate media refuse to answer and which the 9/11 Commission ignored is who, specifically, would have been responsible for creating the circumstances that led to the confusion or fog the morning of 9/11 and who should have immediately ceased any and all war gaming activity and deceptive radar data?
To begin to answer these questions journalists intent on getting answers to questions long asked by the families and others should visit:
Center for Cooperative Research: Essay — “U.S. Military Exercises up to 9/11”
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&before_9/11=milit
aryExercises
Randi Rhodes interview with Complete 9/11 Timeline author, Paul Thompson on Air America
http://www.911podcasts.com/files/audio/RandiRhodes_PaulThompson_NORAD_080206.mp3
Enough with excusing those responsible by pointing to ‘confusion’ or ‘fog’. The real and dangerous ‘fog’ here is that which prevents journalists from doing their jobs and asking and answering the hard questions about 9/11 including those posed above and those surrounding the growing evidence for controlled demolition of the World Trade Center towers and WTC #7. [Google Dr. Steven Jones & World Trade Center]
Kyle F. Hence
Executive Director
9/11 CitizensWatch
http://www.911citizenswatch.org
kfh@911citizenswatch.org
401-935-7715
See also:
Exclusive Report: Did Military Exercises Facilitate the 9/11 Pentagon Attack?
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20060718232126585
Thank you both for countering the recent proaganda release in the Vanity Fair magazine.
all this 9/11 info is suddenly coming out. C-Span broadcast a 9/11-inside-job show four times. All this ‘news’ is not suppressed or ridiculed. Suddenly it is OK to print in big headlines: one third thinks government in on 9/11.
At the same time things seem to get out of control in the Middle East with Israel in the middle of it.
It is also very likely that Israel had an important role in pulling off 9/11. It certainly had reasons to benefit from it.
So what about this thought?
To control Israel in the Middle East in the upcoming and planned large scale war, the neocons may be blackmailing Israel, by (threatening) to expose its role in 9/11.
In return Israel of course can blackmail the neocons by exposing them.
Interesting ‘concidences’, indeed.
Throw in the old truism “There is no honor among thieves”, and your speculation seems plausible.
I don’t think it was Israel – it doesn’t make sense, on a lot of levels. If they were caught, it would be as bad as if the USA was caught red-handed, for the neocons. I can’t imagine they’d risk that. And Israel wouldn’t have done that on their own.
I think it was a lower level inside job – meaning, I don’t think Bush or Cheney directly authorized any such thing, but if enough people knew what had to happen, someone could have leaked the war games to someone else, and kaboom.
There was a lot of false info re Jews being told not to come in that day, etc., that proved false. It’s sad, but there are those who think any conspiracy is a Jewish conspiracy. I am DEFINITELY not one of those.
Although I suspect 9/11 was an “Inside Job”, I would have dismissed talk of Israeli connection but for having read yesterday p. 45 of The Village Voice’s reporter James Ridgeway’s “The 5 Unanswered Questions About 9/11.” While discussing the craven behavior of airlines’ executives that day Ridgeway questions whether the passenger that was killed on American Airlines Flt 11 was stabbed or shot. What I found remarkable was the identity of that passenger, one Mr. Daniel Lewin of Boston. UPI quoted an Israeli newspaper’s description of Mr. Lewin as “a former member of a top-secret Israeli counter-terrorism unit that operated outside of Israel!”
I can’t recall at the moment, but if Mr. Lewin were the only passenger killed by the hijackers on that plane, what a coincidence that he should have the Israeli counter-terror connection?
He wasn’t just a counterterrorism guy. He was trained to storm airplanes and kill hijackers.
link.
He may have been trying to be a hero and got himself killed. He was a CEO of a company. It’s remotely possible that he was assigned to shadow, but more likely he just reverted to training but was outnumbered and weaponless.
Thanks for that info.
Yikes. That IS interesting.
I’ll take time to check my suggestions. It is too important and so easy to post.
Eleven questions with eleven very ugly answers that no one wants to hear.
Answers most progressives would not want to hear, if true, sadly. I thought the film the Matrix illustrated that so well. The false world was colorful, familiar, safe. The real world was ugly, cold, barren, but, well, the truth. Great analogy.
Well… I want to hear the answers.
You and many here on BT. I was thinking of some people on other “progressive” sites that seem more than happy to deny the reality of conspiracies.
Real History Lisa, since you’re a real historian, can you please give me your assessment of the one aspect of 9/11 that keeps driving me nuts? How in the hell could it have been possible for the U.S. government to give names and photographs of all 19 hijackers to the U.S. media within just two or three days of the attack?
That’s total bullshit.
I was in London, England on the day of the attack, planning to fly back that day. I ended up spending a week in a hotel in London drinking beer and watching the TV news about 18 hours a day. It was definitely within 3 days of the attack that the U.S. government claimed they knew the identities of all the hijackers. They had their photos all over the news. The claimed that some hijacker wallets had survived the attacks. They knew that Atta was supposedly the ringleader–within just a few hours.
That’s total bullshit. I’m an immigration lawyer. I deal with the government every day. Most of the time they can’t tell their ass from a hole in the ground.
NO WAY they had all those identities nailed in hours. They still haven’t caught the anthrax bomber after five years.
What’s UP with that?? I’ve gone to many 9/11 conspiracy web sites looking for an answer to that obvious problem, and I don’t remember ever finding a response.
A 9/11 widow asked an FBI representative how they found the hijackers in the first place they looked (the flight schools) after they claimed no prior knowledge of them and he said, “We got lucky.”
If the question is how so many identities could be known after a few days, one answer is “Through databases of records of telephone calls — of who called whom.” These can be used to leverage knowledge of a few members of a conspiracy into very strong leads on the rest. To be more specific, a person who helps to manage ATT’s VAST databases, whom I’ve known for many years through social channels, boasted of their having done exactly that.
This is a method that the immigration authorities wouldn’t have been able use in the cases we’d see day to day.
Yes, I agree that such a technique could be used. But I still think it’s supernatural that the government claimed not only to have all 19 names but also pictures for all of them just hours after the disaster, while also claiming no prior knowledge of the 19.
I have no idea what really happened. But I don’t believe the official story.
They had names from the passenger manifests. Whether those names were accurate is another matter.
Armed with names, they had passport pictures.
It takes no time at all.
Once they located bank accounts, they had access to where they spent money. This led straight to flight schools. They were at the flight schools that night.
These are not the real issues.
Please don’t tell me that an issue I’m raising is not a “real issue.” WTF?
In other words, I think your post here is glib and untrue.
I’d be happy to stand corrected. But I think that’s crap.
bullshit. Give the goverment my social security number abd they’ll have my passport photo on CNN within a few hours.
No double BULLSHIT to you! You’re acting like you think the government is an omniscient god. That’s crazy.
Read my list of objections.
You have no response.
what?
My passport photo is on file and linked to my my SSN.
It doesn’t take much time to accumulate that data. In an emergency it takes minutes.
See my next post, please.
Remember, these were FOREIGNERS supposedly. And remember that I’m an immigration lawyer, an expert on immigration documents such as passports.
Maybe it’s true that a U.S. SSN leads to a U.S. passport photo in minutes (although I think that’s probably crap).
But it certainly does NOT lead quickly to passport photos from foreigners with foreign passports who have no SSNs.
You’re usually much more logical, Booman.
at least a third of them did have SSN’s.
Oh man, grasping at straws.
How do you think you know that? Why do you believe it?
And even if they did, why on earth do you think that has any relationship whatsoever to photos on FOREIGN passports?
Gosh, Booman, do you ever admit you’re wrong?
Not to mention the huge logical flaw that even if “one third” had SSNs that linked to passport photos, which is ludicrous–it says nothing about the other two thirds!
Gosh, I hear better arguments from Bill O’Reilly.
Update from Saturday morning: I just spent an hour reading on the Internet, and I don’t have all day to sort through the tens of thousands of articles on 9/11. Some miscellaneous points:
Dude-
What is the date of this document?
Well, apparently the FBI released the photos on 9/27, 16 days after the attack, and thus almost two weeks later than I recollected.
You’re right that a 16-day period is less supernatural than a shorter period.
But for reasons I’ve mentioned, I still think it’s implausible that the FBI, even the combined power of the entire FBI, could have found photos of the hijackers so quickly if they did not already have them together.
And of course the discussion is complicated by many other issues, such as false identities, the fact that as many as 8 of the 19 are alleged to be still alive, etc. There’s also the issue of confusion about Arabic names rendered in English.
But let’s stop this little debate, and we can each regard ourself as the winner.
It took 16 days for the FBI to release their photos.
And if your read their press release you can see that they show no certainty about their identities, which ones were pilots and so on.
How did they know to go Venice and search the flight school? Because the first thing they did was look at the names on the flight manifests. They all had to buy tickets (with the possible exception of one of them that might have posed as a pilot and been granted a free seat in the cockpit). You can’t buy a ticket without a name. The question is whether the names were aliases, not whether the names were on the manifests.
I personally did a property search and FAA license search for all 19 hijackers. Here is what I found.
Booman I don’t know if it matters, but a small correction.
Hattiesburg is home to the 14th Flying Training Base located at Columbus AFB.
The 14th Flying Training Wing is located at Columbus AFB in Columbus, MS. Hattiesburg, MS is located about 180 miles Southeast of Columbus, MS.
hmm. good to know. I have no idea why I got that wrong. I’d have to go back to my notes to even try to figure it out.
Keesler AFB is a lot closer. I have no idea what the dude was doing in Hattiesburg. I just know the 9/11 commission claims he arrived a lot later.
I don’t know what he was doing there either, but the only thing I can think of that Hattiesburg has is the University.
it has Camp Shelby, for whatever that is worth.
Camp Shelby wouldn’t have been of any help, Army training as far as I know.
That really is odd him being in Hattiesburg. It’s just a small MS city.
I could see going to Columbus because of training, but those are small jets. It would make more sense to go to Boloxi, MS where Keesler is. They train on the large transport jets.
I have a theory on this.
I think there are a couple of possibilities.
Here is the most likely one.
Whoever set the thing up wanted to pin it on the Saudis. So, they identified some names of people that had gone through flight training in the united states. We not only sell planes (military and civilian) to the Saudis, we train their pilots and mechanics. They used those identities to fill up most of the roster. So, when it all went down and we looked into the names, it would look like we trained the pilots.
You’ll note that SULAIMAN SALEM AL HAZMI had both a pilot number and a mechanic certification.
Anyway, a couple of things could have happened. The FBI could have released those names asking for more information and not asserting any certainty as to their authenticity (which they did) and then just stuck with the names because they couldn’t figure out who really did it. Or they could have just covered up the embarrassment of they fact that the names were real, and we did train them.
What is really odd in the whole thing is their assertive insistence on who the pilots were.
What is really odd are the gaps in the timeline. I mean, I got this info from Lexis-Nexis. It’s not like the commission could have missed it.
So a cover-up is a surety, but it is not at all clear what they are covering up for. Embarassment or implicating an ally, are the most likely reasons. Another would be any indication of potential russian involvement, which could have triggered armageddon.
As for patsies, this is how it would have worked. The three pilots that trained in Florida would have been essentially unwitting agents. They would be instructed to go to America, take flight training, do martial arts, meet their handler in Las Vegas a few times, with diversionary trips to San Fran, etc.
The real pilots would come in later. The phony pilots would have left a ‘legacy’ that would explain how the training occurred.
It’s all very complicated. And this is not a conspiracy site.
But I would very much like anyone to answer for me why the information I got from Lexis is totally absent from the commission report and totally inconsistent with it.
This is impressive LexisNexis research–and I’m especially impressed that you can afford it. That kind of search would cost me hundreds on my own LexisNexis account.
However, with sincere respect, BooMan, don’t you see the logical flaw in your approach here? You STARTED with 19 Arabic names published by the FBI.
Think about it. (Hint: You’re assuming the accuracy of the very fact being disputed.)
I’m annoyed that you haven’t deigned to respond to nearly every point I’ve made in this thread. I believe you have an irrational and–forgive me–naive belief in the scope and accuracy of government information systems.
Here’s a contemporaneous source I found:
“HOW DID THE GOVERNMENT GET THE NAMES &
HOW DID THEY GET THE PHOTOS SO QUICKLY?
Point #2: The FBI released the names of the 19 hijackers on Sept. 14. They were immediately displayed on CNN and other news services. The government said the names were obtained from the passenger manifests (lists) of the 4 downed airliners. These manifests have not been released with the names of every single passenger and crew onboard. CNN posted the manifests on its website, but it withheld the names of the terrorists and certain passengers (at the request of the families). Other than airline employees who are not talking, no one else in the public has, to my knowledge, seen the complete passenger manifests.
Ever since I started these Special Updates in the days following the tragedy, I have repeatedly questioned how the government knew so quickly who the 19 suspected hijackers were. Again, the “official” story is, their names were taken right off the manifests provided by the airlines.
I have also questioned how the government got their pictures so fast? I am told that the government could have gotten their photos from passports or visas, but that would only explain those who were in the country legally. Or, I’m told, the government may have already had information on these men in the national security databases. While there is a lot of discussion about how the government got the photos, I will leave it to others for now.” Source: http://www.profutures.com/print.php/41
The source quoted above accords with my recollection. I’m sure I saw the hijacker names on CNN while I was still in England, within five days of the attack. I think the press release you cited was to a later release of names and photos.
By the way, I found MANY other sources that confirm that the FBI released the so-called hijacker names on September 14th! Thus, your self-assured one-line rebuttal to my arguments is just plain wrong.
Of the thousands of conspiracy web pages, here is what seems to me a sensible one regarding this issue: http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/passengers.html
I’ll stop here, because of course it’s impossible to get the truth on the Internet.
But I’m annoyed you told me that this concern of mine is not a “real issue.” You’re absolutely wrong.
BBC posted this on Sunday, 23 September, 2001.
Hijack ‘suspects’ alive and well:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm
Still on the BBC web site today.
Thanks for the opportunity to share my thoughts on this.
9/11 commission completely ignored this reporting.
One more clue that the official theory is a big lies and the 9/11 commission was a whitewash.
The last six years have just been the Time Of Lies And Misinformation.
There are so many of them, so many scandals and outrages, one forgets even really important details.
Like the one you mention. That’s right. I remember seeing articles on that theme quite a few times, and now it’s dust under the rug.
Not only did they identify 19 guys in just a few hours–but they got the WRONG GUYS!
Unbelievable.
I’ve never seen a compelling answer to that question. I was working at Microsoft at the time, and I think it was within 24 hours, a team from Microsoft was already pulling apart computers allegedly belonging to the terrorists, working to get at whatever data they had. I remember thinking how bizarre that was that they knew who they were, where they lived, so soon after the attack. But then, I was in a fog. Everything was so unreal in those first couple of days.
I had watched the attacks live – I was up early, watching CNN for no particular reason, and the first tower had been struck but not yet the second. As it unfolded, I was just in shock.
When I went into work that day, people barely talked to each other. Everyone was alone, together, with their own private thoughts. I think I said outloud to someone well, it’s about time. They looked at me like a traitor. I was sure at that point that we’d finally pissed someone else off enough that the came to give us what for. But I was already noting strange things, even before I got to work.
For example, the original report re the Pentagon was from a caller inside who thought a bomb had gone off. I flipped rapidly through the other channels, and was shocked that for such a big explosion, there was a not a peep from the other channels about it. Bizarre. It was nearly 20 minutes before other channels starting reporting on the Pentagon, and by then the story was that a plane hit. I’ve gone back and forth on believing a plane hit. I didn’t, initiallly, buy that. But then I read all the eye witness reports and that seemed convincing, to me. But when the Pentagon released another frame that didn’t even show a plane, now I’m wondering WTF is going on. I still think a plane hit, but I think there’s something wrong the Pentagon doesn’t want us to see that would be obvious if all the video was released. There’s really no other reason, at this point, for all that to still be secret.
Thanks. Interesting story. It takes great courage to admit you worked for Microsoft <grin>.
First of all, I would like to thank BooMan for not just shutting down threads and banning people who would like to bring up a topic that some find controversial. Thinking critically about everything is one of the core values of a progressive.
As to the questions about 9/11…I think almost everyone is at least a little skeptical about the official version of the events of that day. I don’t know if I’m ready to accept the belief that the WTC buildings were brought down in a controlled demolition. That’s an extraordinary claim which will require extraordinary evidence. I’m open to the possibilty, but would need to be persuaded more than I have been so far.
The part that puzzles me the most has always been the attack on the Pentagon and Flight 93. Neither of those sites looked like a normal airline crash site and I remember thinking that watching events unfold on television. There’s the matter of the incompetent hijacker pilot performing a very difficult turn to get into attack position. There are pictures of wreckage found at the Pentagon that do not match up to any known pieces of a Boeing 757. The refusal of authorities to release any real pictures of a plane impacting the Pentagon when groups rushed to release pictures of planes slamming into the WTC has always been suspicious.
Something isn’t right with the official version, but I would expect that the bulk of the evidence has been destroyed/tampered with (WTC debris hauled off to landfills immediately, air-traffic control tapes destroyed, etc) and the very small number of real insiders will probably never reveal anything that contradicts the offical version of events. If the 9/11 skeptics’ questions can be adequately answered, nobody would be happier. I would much prefer not to believe that elements of the US government had at least some part in the events of 9/11. However, until convinced otherwise, questions like the ones Real History Lisa and others have posted will continue to linger.
To re-post a simple observation:
The central argument behind this conspiracy theory is the unlikelihood of a symmetric collapse absent well-placed, simultaneously exploding demolition charges. This argument would be pretty silly if the collapse were strikingly asymmetric.
In fact, however, if you look at this video of the first collapse, it is grossly asymmetric: As seen in this video, the chunk of the building above the fire rotates counter-clockwise as it falls, turning by about 20 degrees before it disappears into the smoke. No careful demolition was needed to produce such a sloppy result.
Now notice that it falls essentially straight down — if you watch the base of the chunk you’ll see that it moves about as far to the right as the top moves to the left. It is turning around its center, not toppling to one side from its base. Why is this? Because there is nothing pushing it strongly to one side or the other. The pillars on the right that lasted a bit longer were pushing up; this gave the chunk some angular momentum, but not much of the linear momentum needed to move it’s center of gravity to one side.
After that, the falling chunk of the building smashes the lower parts straight down. Again, there is nothing to push stuff to one side or the other, so the overall collapse is nearly symmetric.
—–
Another argument that they use is that the fire wasn’t hot enough to melt steel. This is a stupid argument. Do blacksmiths use heat to melt steel, or to soften it? Wouldn’t softened steel crumple?
Why was some melted steel found, then? Because fire can indeed be hot enough to melt steel. That’s how iron-age people were able to melt it.
These points show that key, endlessly repeated arguments made by the demolition-conspiracy people are obviously false. This speaks to the overall quality and objectivity of their thinking.
—–
-One in a series of technical notes on political issues by Technopolitical-
Truth first. (But re-check the evidence tomorrow.)Ooops. Copying html can lead to some odd errors.
BTW, although one should be skeptical of arguments by intellectual association, this survival of obviously bogus arguments for controlled demolition does show that extremely bad-quality evidence and reasoning continue to circulate unchecked within the Trade-Center-attack conspiracy-hypothesis community.
You can read about steelmaking here.
It really didn’t exist in Europe until the 18th century.
Maximum burn temp of jet fuel? 980 degrees celsius.
To recap, there should not have been an molten metal in the ruins of the trade center because neither room fires nor airplace fuel burn hot enough to melt steel or iron.
I don’t know why there was molten metal there. It proves nothing to me about demolition. But it is a mystery.
Coke (nearly pure carbon, basically the same stuff as charcoal) burning in air is hot enough to melt iron:
The burning piles created by collapsed towers contained a lot of fuel, and the early, fuel-rich burning would carbonize much of it, making stuff that is (again) basically the same as charcoal or coke. This carbonized fuel would burn later, after the more volatile stuff, and in a preheated environment. This would work much like a cupola furnace, so I don’t see a mystery here.
In this instance, the weakness of the conspiracy hypothesizers’ arguments isn’t quite so blatantly obvious as it is in the basic question of how the collapse happened. Still, it doesn’t take much googling or basic physical knowledge to recognize the explanation above. If there were a truly honest, level-headed community of inquiry studying anomalies, someone would have figured this out and posted it. The others in that (seemingly imaginary) community of inquiry would have put a check-mark next to the molten-iron question in the “mystery explained” column, and gone on to examine other issues.
Ooops — I forgot the link for the quote; it’s to a site done by a guy who melts iron in his backyard:
New Small Portable Cupola!
The fires were oxygen deprived pre and post explosion.
The link you provided talks about a device that is in effect a small blast furnace with forced air/oxygen from a vacuum cleaner.
The WTC fires burned until December! (according to the NY Times) even though they were sprayed constantly with water.
If you look at the physics it becomes clear that there was a large external heat source, for example explosives, that caused the molten metal and the fires that lasted for months.
Explosives aren’t a large heat source: burning an equal weight of gasoline produces more heat. Almost all of the heat came from burning carpets, wood, and so on.
Air makes burning possible, but when the fire isn’t exposed and radiating heat, air is also the coolant that limits the temperature. A slow fire can get as hot as a fast one because the temperature that a mass reaches depends on the amount of energy released per unit mass, not on the speed at which the energy is released — again, unless the fire is exposed and radiating heat, and hence fighting the effects of external cooling. In small fires made by impatient people, forced air is essential. Not in a huge, hot pile like the WTC heaps.
Fires in coal seams can burn, slowly, for years. Here’s a link that describes one that has been burning since 1962.
Wrong. Why would you even say that?
Most of the contents of the buildings was nonflammable. A fire based on wood, paper, toner cartridges, etc. does not burn for 3 months or melt steel.
What has that got to do with the WTC?
FWIWI just watched a documentary recently about the devolpment of steel, and the steel making process, here is one part of steel making from this site
http://www.key-to-steel.com/jp/Articles/Art2.htm
The other methods of making steel are listed there, but the basic thing I learned from the program is that just heat is not enough to make steel, only pig iron.
Just thought that may further the discussion re: whether the steel could soften or melt, I do not know, just think it’s interesting.
Yes, steel-making is complex and interesting. The issue with steel and pig iron actually isn’t so much heat as composition. Pig ironcontains a lot of carbon (several percent) which makes it brittle. It gets the carbon from the initial smelting process; steel is basically pig iron with less carbon, and it’s made in a later step in which the carbon is burned off. Making pig iron, converting it to steel, and melting steel are all different processes, but they occur at similar temperatures.
I actually studied metallurgy a bit in college.
Not me! Do you?
Still, let me make clear how I react to your comment.
Calling smart, educated and dedicated people stupid is stupid. It makes me question the quality and objectivity of your thinking.
Forgive me.
Regarding your comment.
Explosions going off slightly asymmetrically/asynchronously combined with the asymmetric damage from the impact/fire can explain this.
The top of the tower was spinning as you said and not moving down. So did it have the ‘smashing power’ to pulverize the floors below it and break all vertical support columns there in perfect synchrony?
Here are six observations about physics aspects of 9/11.
Each one of these observations casts serious doubts on the official explanation. There are many more such observations of very different nature.
Please forgive me my choice of word. I often think of “stupid” more as a quality of ideas than of people, as in “That’s a stupid idea!”, which might be said of someone who isn’t stupid at all — and I did speak of “a stupid argument”, and unless I’m mistaken, no one on this thread had made the argument that I called stupid. If the argument itself wants to show up and throw pie without a human to help, that would be interesting.
The argument had been that symmetry indicated explosives. No symmetry = no argument — failure to see asymmetry in video when using symmetry as an argument = Um… (bites tongue)… lack of care by the chief advocates of the idea.
“Spinning… not moving down”? Look at the video again. The top of the tower is indeed moving down. It is a huge, falling mass. The floors below weren’t built to withstand huge falling masses. And there was no “perfect synchrony” in anything, hence none to explain. Ask yourself, where did the idea that there was “perfect synchrony” come from?
Regarding the rest, I’m sorry, but many of the “arguments” are more like questions to students, the sort of thing you might find at the end of a chapter in a textbook on the relevant topic. I’d be willing to bet that you are neither an engineer nor a physicist, because you don’t seem to be familiar with issues of force, strength, momentum, heat flow, fluid flow, etc. I work with engineering and physics every day. No one who thinks productively about physical problems would try to think in terms of “smashing power”.
Almost anything will seem mysterious if it’s unfamiliar and not understood. Some people understand more about the movement of matter and energy than others — who, in turn, understand more about other particular kinds of stuff. I don’t try to correct Juan Cole’s Arabic translations. I hope that he wouldn’t try to correct my engineering analysis.
I wrote those six points expressly for a lay audience. You’re wrong in thinking I am not a technical person. I have a PhD in Nuclear Physics and -I know it sounds cocky- have the reputation and know myself to be a very good physicist.
Never ask a question if your not willing to believe the answer.
No one wants the truth in this case because the truth of the whole plot has been online for years now. The truth of the what, who and why 9/11 occurred has been rejected as absurd.
9/11 was just one event in a series of events some overt, some covert. The truth is a very large puzzle. So immense in it’s size, scope and implications that it becomes for most people incomprehensible.
Unfortunately for me, I put the all the pieces of the puzzle together. I understand the true goals and intentions of the people that plotted and created 9/11, The war in Afghanistan and Iraq, The current war in Lebanon, The coming wars with Korea, Syria, Jordan and Iran.
I’m not going to share the truth I know with anyone on this site.
Why? The reason is very simple. You still believe you can change the system from within. You still want to believe the government, the media and politicians are going to be honest with the public and will get to the bottom of it all. You want to believe that all this stuff your doing is going to stop where the world is headed. You want to believe that right will always triumph.
But most of all you don’t want to be losers because that is un-American and unacceptable. Being a winner always is what America is all about these days. Truth will not make you a winner in this current society in America.
Like the people in New Orleans the day after Katrina came ashore and devastated the region. They believed the government would come. After day four everyone was in shock and still couldn’t believe the government hadn’t come. To this day it is hard for those who where not in the affect region to believe the government did nothing to help anyone in that first week. It’s still so shocking that it’s best for most of America not to remember. The media helps America to forget these unpleasant truths.
Those who were affected will never forget nor will they forgive. The rest of America that has already forgotten this unpleasant episode believing that if something similar happens to them the government will come. Little do they realize they are on their own and will be left to sort it out themselves.
Truth is a Toxic Waste product in America.
Exposure to the truth can cause physical harm, emotional distress, skin irritation, lead poisoning by sudden ingestion, loss of sleep, depression, impotence, baldness and high blood pressure.
I can relate to that cockiness. I hope you realize that you can misjudge especially if you have to make sense of incomplete or potentially false information.
I have also thought along the lines that Truth is highly overrated. It is hard enough to distil truth in the sciences. Forget about it in ‘real’ life. Governments, big companies, the Mass Media have enough muscle to create their own realities. I think people find Truth boring. They want to soar emotionally, dream. They are addicted to entertainment. Realizing that an 18ft hole in the Pentagon can not be caused by the impact of a huge plane is not entertaining. Evil guys killing innocent passengers while striking at the nerve center of our military might…that is entertaining…that unites us, rouses us…those are true elementary emotions…that is Truth.
Our minds are not made for scientific analysis and decion making. We spend all our evolutionary lives dealing with magical, unpredictable, uncontrollable environments. We are successful at that by adopting a, almost any, system of thought and interpretation and stick to it, make it true.
judge for yourself.
Thank you for the link. Good for future reference.
Eyewitness accounts are analyzed and put in perspective in the Frozen Fish story. An excerpt is in the box, but check out the whole story. I also recommend you watch the infamous Pentagon Strike Video.
The stories, as told, certainly go beyond what was actually observed. This is an interesting commentary on the nature of eyewitness reports, or of reporters’ reports of those reports.
Of course, there is a very specific airliner missing.
Hard realities exist based on hard undisputable fact. All a person has to do is be objective, use cold hard logic and solid reasoning. Exactly the opposite of everything a person learns in America today.
Truth makes everyone very uncomfortable in America. Truth then becomes a curse for those who have to face it because truth is the very last thing anyone really wants to know.
See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.
Apt description of America after a generation of avoiding all things that might be tainted with truth.
No it’s not a dream at all.
It’s a nightmare only no one told anyone what thier part is in this really bad horror story plot.
a bit more about this (before I go for a swim)?
Look I am a scientist, a Nuclear Physicist as a say somewhere in this diary. I know what it means to deal with cold hard logic and reasoning.
But I know it is hard and even though I excel at it and love it, it doesn’t come easy. So I learned to appreciate that our brains are tuned in to surviving in a natural environment, where things are mostly magical and poorly understood.
The way to be effective in such an environment is to have a common believe system and basically anything goes. The important thing is that everybody thinks and handles according to that system. In that way the group controls its environment, creating their own reality.
That is what BushCo is doing and I am not surprised that people naturally accept that.
Can I go for a swim now?
Hey! Don’t let me stop you from taking the plunge. There is nothing in this response that I disagree with.
The reason they (BushCo) get away with all this is that they only know how to appeal to the lowest common denominator. That in itself is an art form that only a select few ever truly master.
The problem they have with this approach is that it very seldom yields any long term gains. It’s a short term game that is self defeating.
Hitler had the same problem when he took control. One of the first things he did was eliminated the intellectuals from his equation. They were the only group that had the credibility to debunk the reality he “created”.
This current bunch can’t take this route because it is so unacceptable to the American people. So what they have done is created a machine which attacks the credibility of the intellectuals and cast doubt in the minds of many that provable facts are not credible or reliable. This is a dangerous route to take because it will only work for a very short time in swaying the majority of people who don’t concern themselves with getting the raw data and figuring it out for themselves.
As in physics every action has a equal and opposite reaction.
The methods being employ are based in the unreality that every action will occur in isolation and fail to provoke any opposite reaction. So what occurs is that in order to mask the reaction and the consequences of these reactions. The next event created must have at least twice the impact in order for the reality created by the first action to continue to exist.
In creating unreality Bushco have doomed themselves to total failure in all their endeavors since reality really doesn’t like being messed with. This is similar to any attempts by science to impose order on chaos. The concepts of order and chaos imply that there is a black and white situation when in reality order is the same as chaos.
Or to look at this another way order only occurs when understanding is achieve. Chaos is then just simply a failure to understand. When the facts are all understood then what is always discovered is the “balance between” the these two concepts.
The problems created by Bushco have created an imbalance in society in America. What will occur is a correction of this imbalance this is why the policies implemented by this administration will fail in sum total over the long run. Human society will reject solutions that fail to be fair and reasonable and upset the balance of perceived reality of the moment although it usually take an unknown amount of time.
As a scientist you know for a fact what is understood the true quest is understanding what is currently beyond the grasp of understanding given the current knowledge base. Bushco seeks to change the fundamental facts of society that has evolved to this point in time. Attempts to reverse the history of societies understanding of itself (social self image) are and will be doomed to fail.
The world of today which is connected now through the Internet is redefining this social self image human society on a scale never imagined before. These are the birth pangs of an entirely new reality that has no borders or physical reality is what Bushco seek to control and own all for themselves excluding a large portion of society that dislikes intensely any suggestion that it can be controlled.
This is the war on knowledge Bushco is waging and in the long run will lose because there is no war. There never was any reason to fight this war since only a fool would declare and fight a war against the very air that you breath.
The only thing they are proving once again is that human stupidity is as endless as the universe. Hey! Don’t let me stop you from taking the plunge. There is nothing in this response that I disagree with.
The reason they (Bushco) get away with all this is that they know how to appeal to the lowest common denominator. That in itself is an art form that only a select few ever truly master.
The problem they have with this approach is that it very seldom yields any long term gains. It’s a short term game that is self defeating.
Hitler had the same problem when he took control. One of the first things he did was eliminate the intellectuals from his equation. They were the only group that had the credibility to debunk the reality he “created”.
This current bunch can’t take Hitler’s route because it is so unacceptable to the American people. So what they have done is create a machine which attacks the credibility of the intellectuals and cast doubt in the minds of many that provable facts are not credible or reliable.
This is a dangerous route to take because it will only work for a very short time in swaying the majority of people who don’t concern themselves with getting the raw data and figuring it out for themselves.
As in physics every action has a equal and opposite reaction.
The methods being employ are based in the unreality that every action will occur “in isolation” and fail to provoke any opposite reaction. So what occurs is that in order to mask the reaction and the consequences of these reactions. The next event created must have at least twice the impact in order for the reality created by the first action to continue to exist.
In creating unreality Bushco have doomed themselves to total failure in all their endeavors since reality really doesn’t like being messed with. This is similar to any attempts by science to impose order on chaos. The concepts of order and chaos imply that there is a black and white situation when in reality order is the same as chaos.
Or to look at this another way order only occurs when understanding is achieve. Chaos is then just simply a failure to understand. When all the facts are understood then what is always discovered is the “balance between” the these two concepts.
The problems created by Bushco’s created reality have created an imbalance in society in America. What will occur is a correction of this imbalance. This is why the policies implemented by this administration will fail in sum total over the long run. Human society will reject solutions that fail to be fair and reasonable and upset the balance of known reality at the moment although it usually take an unknown amount of time.
As a scientist you know for a fact what is understood. The true quest is understanding what is currently beyond the grasp of understanding. Bushco seeks to change the fundamental facts of society that has evolved to this point in time. Attempts to reverse the history of societies understanding of itself (human social self image) are and will be doomed to fail.
The world of today which is connected now through the Internet is redefining this social self image of human society on a scale never imagined before. These are the birth pangs of an entirely new reality that has no borders or physical reality. This is what Bushco seek to control and own all for themselves excluding a large portion of society that dislikes intensely any suggestion that it can be controlled.
The time of government that is exclusive in nature is coming to an very ugly end. The governments of the future will be inclusive in nature now that the world has had a taste of this form of government when America came into existence.
The “war on knowledge” Bushco is waging will has been a loser since the get go because there is no war. There never was any reason to fight this war since only a fool would declare and fight a war against the very air that you breath.
The only thing they are proving once again is that human stupidity is as endless as the universe.
I know what I know from proven documented facts. I know for a fact that 9/11 was planned by individuals entrusted to protect America from this type of attack. I know that 9/11 was only one objective. One event in a series of well thought out events and objectives. I know that other events although not as spectacular were planned to occur in the event the WTC attack failed.
What I know is not a theory. What I know are some very raw provable facts that have never seen the light of public knowledge in addition to facts that are readily available to anyone on the Internet.
The difference here is that it is provable that 9/11 was an operation planned by individuals within the government of the United States. My reality then since it does not conform to generally accepted reality is vastly different in ways that only if you lived my life would total understanding occur.
Truth is not a subjective discussion when it involves a provable fact. There is then only acceptance or denial when such a truth is presented to the general public for their enlightenment and edification.
I have only ONE question for y’all, myself.
Do you not think that there are some…many…groups within our military and intelligence apparatus that were systematically kept out of the loop regarding this thing, if indeed it really happened in a pre-plotted manner? I mean…there was no mass email memo distributed to all who might be even tangentially involved saying “Yo. On the 11TH? See no evil, hear no evil. That’s an order. TAKE NO ACTIONS.” Right?
And if that is undoubtedly the case (given again the idea that 9/11 was not just a typically massive fuck-up by our too large and thus almost totally incompetent social and governmental system as it now stands), then in the ensuing years you can be SURE that inquiries have been made. And actions HAVE been taken. As always…secret actions, because that’s what “intelligence” forces do. They are secret police.
This current tide of 9/11 mass media exposure…? Just part of the same quite plainly coordinated effort that has at the very least included what was plainly a plot by some faction of the CIA to use the Plame thing against the Neo-cons (That faction may even have CREATED the scandal from the get-go, by the way.), the work of Richard Clarke and others like him plus the various “leaks” that have so kindly informed the writing of the endless reporters who have written on military, political, and plain old theft/murder crime after crime in the mainstream media, “left wing” division.
It all happens under the covers here in The United Secrets of America.
And THAT is the real problem.
I recently made a post on My left Wing that largely dealt with the problem of secrecy. (I have reposted it here for your perusal, should you be so inclined. Secrecy Is Their Sword. Openness Must Be Ours.)
The REAL danger as I see it is that the same forces that have secretly dealt with their own perception of “problems” regarding our position in the world are the ones running the effective opposition to BushCo.
Because BushCo has failed.
Tactically.
NOT strategically.
The same economic imperialist strategy is shared by BOTH sides of this question. The two sides of the corporate-controlled PermaGov.
Neo-Con=Nouveau Riche.
Old Con=Old Riche.
But there is always and forever a third side. to EVERY question. And “we”…those who are outside the power loop but most definitely have input (Blogs HAVE changed the game. Bet on it.)…we are that third side. The most visible part of it, anyway.
Our coming problem is as follows. (Provided of course that the Neos do not begin dropping Big Ones in their increasingly panicked flight from possible prosecution. Which would pose a greater problem, of course. As you can be sure they well know.)
What do we do when Plan A Lite takes over?
Do we roll in the scent of the dead enemy like dogs? As we did when the same forces succeeded in taking down Nixon?
Or do we continue to fight the REAL enemy?
Those who would…admittedly by gentler, kinder means (or at least by more secretive means)…cointinue to try to dominate the world and bogart the resources of that world to allow some 15% of the world’s population to continue to drive big cars and eat empty FatBurgers while the ever-increasingly well-armed and angry OTHER 85% sit and plot how to get their fair share of the booty?
We have to begin to take the long view, now.
The LONG long view.
See ya somewhere…on down the road a ways.
If we’re lucky.
Later…
AG
Now a stand-alone post.
The LONG long view.
AG
AG, you inform me, incite me, and crack me up.
I’m on my way to meet you on the long, long road.
Arthur
but I’ll have to have a fresh mind or you’ll have to take more time before I can get your thinking.
We’ll get there
What part of what I am saying here do you not get, fourtytwo?
I am serious.
No snark.
Inform me.
I am sitting here at 1;30 AM after having played a TOTALLY empty B’way show for rent money, watching Clint Eastwood’s amazingly apt documentary about the great blues piano players…the truth, the TRUTH, God help us all…and I wonder over and over again…
What is it that we are not saying?
How can we say it better?
Wanna REACH you, baby.
So did Robert Johnson and Professor LongHair and Fats Domino and Thelonious Monk.
What more do you need to hear?
“…take more time before I can get your thinking?”
We be dead and gone, take much more time.
What more do you need to know?
“We’ll get there?”
Lord, I hope so!!!
TALK TO ME!!!
AG
is better than nothing. I haven’t seen you here lately. What’s up?
Thanks for posting this.
I don’t know what I think happened. I don’t have enough information. I lean towards the idea that someone leaked info about the war games that day, and the rest transpired thanks to a motivated guerilla movement, mistakes, ass covering, poor equipment and an incompetent Administration that doesn’t know how to react on its feet. I could be wrong. I know that I heard for most of my youth that MK ULTRA and COINTELPRO were just stories, conspiracy theories. I know that what was eventually revealed about them was both worse, and yet less than, the various scenarios that were spun before info about them was declassified.
Perhaps part of this happened by design from within the halls of our gov’t, military or large corporations. Perhaps some of it was accident … the swirling chaos that happens when various parties with incompatable goals smack into each other in a big event.
We will never know the “Truth”. Truth is conditional on one’s symbols and definitions for the world, and we are all slightly out of sync with one another. Calibrating perceptions, memories and evidence from events this big is impossible. However, I do believe that the drift of 9/11 and our various imperialistic adventures over the last century have been toward more death, more exploitation and less equality, despite brief spasms where the vox populai (Civil Rights movement, sufferage movement, the Bonus March) managed to drown out the roaring monsters tapping the world dry.
I wish I could say that we are ready to rise again, but I think that we’re too far gone. Our Army is about to be swallowed in the sands of Iraq, we’ve a government itching to use nukes and we’re refusing to act to stop the earth from cooking.
It’s good to try to suss it out though, if only for the good stories and to pass the time.
The central part of the standard “evidence” for controlled demolition of the towers is easily shown to be complete garbage, based on common knowledge and publicly available video (which I’ve linked). See my above post on “demolition”.
i don’t know if this will work but hear is my work on the hijackers. I need to go back one day and put in all the footnotes. http://www.boomantribune.com/files/4/Hijackers_Timeline.xls
for revealing some of your thinking. I’ll make time to read this again. Maybe I’ll come up with an idea on today’s swim. I swim for about 45 minutes in the ocean.