Years ago I attended a talk by a friend of mine on the Feminist Anarchist Movement (she is part of the Women Studies crowd should have her Ph.D. by now). Near the beginning of her talk she mentioned that even in very liberal or anarchist movements the women were often relegated to getting the boys coffee. Even when they weren’t actively excluded, the women found it very hard to participate in the conversation. The discussion styles were male dominated and women had trouble joining in.
We were sitting at a meeting of mostly anarchist and feminists, led by a strong woman. The room was about 50/50 men and women and she had just mentioned that women often found it hard to talk in these kinds of forums. So I sat back and watched, to see how it would play out.
With the exception of the speaker herself, it turned out that men dominated about 90% of the conversation. None of the guys really did anything explicit to edge out the gals, they just jumped in when they thought it was appropriate and said what they wanted to say. The women in general were more polite and waited just a little longer to talk, and in general it didn’t.
The other thing I noticed was that it was really disturbing me to sit there and not say anything. I kept wanting to jump in the way I normally would, but I had decided to sit and watch for a little, and after that I felt guilty for my gender and couldn’t bring myself to talk so long as there was clearly a woman who wanted to as well. Needless to say there was always a women queued up to speak, but she rarely got the chance.
I have noticed similar issues at other times. Women who tell me that they want to talk about politics, but don’t feel that they know enough, or who just don’t feel like the “Old Boyz Club” will listen.
Men and women certainly have different conversation styles, and emphasize different parts of issues in conversation. To generalize it seems that women tend to talk about how issues affect them and their friends and men prefer the abstract, men are also more aggressive and women more cooperative.
This is a problem for Democrats and Progressives not just because we believe in equality (at least I hope we all do), but because there is a gender gap in politics which favors us. If we could help more women, especially single women, feel comfortable about politics and that they have a place at the table then we would win almost every election in the country.
One on one I have learned to have what I hope are more equal conversations. I can dampen my impulse to interrupt, and pause longer between thoughts. Sometimes so long I feel uncomfortable. But, when I try that in a group setting I find that I feel left out of the conversation and the women that my changed behavior is meant to benefit do not speak any more than they otherwise would.
Going the other direction if I feel that I am controlling the conversation, officially or unofficially, I can direct it towards the women in a group or towards topics I think they would prefer, but that doesn’t really work in a free flowing conversation.
I think that there are issues of style and substance. Both of which can encourage a more equal conversation, or even a female dominated one. In politics it seems to me that men need to learn to cede ground and women to claim it. What can we do to promote that in our political gatherings and on-line ramblings?
I am a male and a feminist, but not an anarchist.
Also available in orange and on MLW
Sorry I’m such a flirt. Some people thought I was one of those cheater spouses cuz I flirted with you ……no, just a flirt.
I did flirt back. Flirting is fun, one of the few ways men and women have figured out how to communicate, and even then often not very well.
Made this old girl feel sassy for a bit. I don’t know what it is about talking politics with men and getting to that certain level but it seems to require some kind of implied intimacy in a way. Maybe that’s why all of the girls knew what Bill was saying and voted for him 😉 He had an implied intimacy with all of us 😉
I have never had that feeling of implied intimacy with a Republican guy. I just stand there and their lips are moving but it doesn’t make any sense. I’m always pulled slightly away from them too. Hmmmm
I was very impressed when I heard Bill speak last October he really does talk directly to and to some extent flirt with everyone in the crowd. There was a moment when I so strongly felt that he was looking straight at me that I almost wave back. Then again I am used to people looking at me…
That’s why it’s so important for team leaders, committee chairs, facilitators, etc. to actively seek out peoples comments and opinions. We totally need to incorporate this learning into democratic and progressive politics.
You have to be willing to (forcefully if it calls for it) to shut down male banter and posturing in order for women and others who may be more reticent about publicly voicing their opinion to speak up.
I’ve seen some of the most insightful and effective comments have come in the last 5-10 minutes of a meeting after I’ve shut the boyz down and asked for additional comments.
But I’m a white male so I can get away with it. 🙂
Thank you. This is a real problem.
I attended a women’s college where there were guys in some classes. They were few in number, but they usually dominated the discourse, perhaps without even realizing it. The women, for the most part, faded into the background and wouldn’t participate.
I’ve noticed this in internet interaction, too. When I started participating in internet discussions many years ago, the vast majority of the participants in the various forums were male. I was one of the few vocal women. I would get private emails from women who were too afraid to do anything but lurk. But why? What were they afraid of? Certainly not physical violence – but perhaps some of them had experienced physical violence at the hands of men and were still intimidated, even when the interaction wasn’t face-to-face. But after talking with several of these women, I got the impression that they were intimidated by the aggressive verbalstyle of the men – they didn’t want to be in an argument with them, didn’t want to be criticized by them, etc.
In face-to-face professional meetings, I’ve seen this happen – some people, both male and female, are simply not comfortable putting themselves and their ideas forward. The good managers/facilitators will sense this and attempt to draw those people out and cause the loudmouths to back off. It’s not easy, though.
In terms of political discussion on the blogs, I’ve noticed that feminist issues get shunted to the wayside and “ghettoized” – people whose feminist values are important to them are labeled “single issue voters”. More respect for feminists – and more openness to learning about feminism instead of dismissing and/or ignoring it – would go a long way.
Thanks again for this important diary.
You make some outstanding points.
As to what women are afraid of, I wonder if some of the hesitancy isn’t generational. Even though I became a feminist in the 70’s, my previous two decades of socialization still make it hard for me to speak up — especially if there is any hint of conflict.
One thing I am grateful to BT for is that I have seen some excellent modeling of how to debate issues with both passion and respect. We cometimes slip here, as we have seen recently, but overall the level of discourse is moderately civil. It has emboldened me to speak my mind more. I don’t feel comfortable at some of the other blogs where the discussion feels more like war than discourse.
On the other hand, I really don’t get women’s timidity online. Although I’m not shy in offline meetings (at least, I don’t think I am), I have come to expect that 95% of what I throw out there will be bait not taken, and I don’t really see THAT as a male-female thing but my conversational style is to sit and listen and then introduce something bold at an opportune moment. Those moments are hard to find among men who have a conversational style that is competitive. I do have a tendency to “spectator” at meetings and get bored with what’s being discussed and have trouble finding ways to insert myself.
Online, on the other hand, I have never been afraid to get into scraps; I enjoy them and just don’t sense any male-female dynamics. (Or at least, they don’t faze me in the slightest.) I do notice guys trying to wave their dicks in cyberspace, but it doesn’t offend me – it just makes me want to laugh. They are at a serious disadvantage in the online world because here, they may be talking to a woman and not even realize it. Heh heh. SUFFAH. (I don’t go out of my way to hide my gender, but I don’t go out of my way to reveal it either, except on special occasions like this thread)
As some Internet pundit (I forget who) recently pointed out, the Internet is actually a great vehicle for doing subversive things. It’s amusing to me to watch white men trying to turn it into a tool for normal politics and then fool themselves that they’re doing something revolutionary with it.
On the other hand, I really don’t get women’s timidity online.
I’m not sure I get it either. But I know I experience it at times. It may just be the way I was raised.
My husband and I are very different in our ways of discussing things. He grew up in a family where Saturday morning conversations went on for hours and the only rule was that you couldn’t take the same position anyone else had. If you got there early you could pick what you really thought or believed, if not, you had to make an interesting argument for another point of view.
I on the other hand, was taught the it was the height of rudeness to disagree with another person’s stated opinion. No matter how passionately I felt about something, I was not to disagree with anyone over something they said.
Consequently, I never learned how to argue my case. Perhaps other women were raised in a similar manner.
All I know is that even on line this colors my conversations — until I get so pissed off that I respond in a really over the top way.
Love it! Awesome comment.
GREAT diary Luam. This is just the kind of thing we should be talking about more. I know that there are “women’s issues” that need to be at the forefront. But sometimes we get so caught up in arguing about them, that we miss these really important communication issues.
I also want to respond to your comment hrh because I had such a profound experience with the lurking and not speaking.
Anyone who knows me in real life is aware of the fact that I am not afraid to speak. I learned how to a little later in life and vowed that no one would ever shut me down again.
My first experience on blogs was at dkos. I was there for several months and NEVER SAID A THING. It didn’t dawn on me what had happened until I came to BT and wrote a diary my first week here.
Now I can look back and see that it was the style of communication that intimidated me. I like to converse, speak my mind, and hear from others. Over at dkos the right/wrong debate style made me nervous about stepping in and being labelled “wrong” – end of story.
I’m sure its more complicated than that, but there is definitely something very important about this issue. And we need to keep talking to get it out there.
Thanks everyone!!
The “war against women” is an important component of what’s going on in politics today–more subtle but more pervasive than the racism that infused the ads against Harold Ford in Tennessee. I’ve so many more examples than I could add in just a comment. Maybe time to write a diary.
This got me to thinking about my own college experience (circa 1985). I was one of those people who always sat up front and contributed often to discussions. My professors liked me lots, but every once and a while, one would approach me after class and tell me that others in the class found me intimidating and had complained. To the profs credits, they never suggested that I should shut up. I now wonder if those same people found outspoken men intimidating and complained about them? Somehow, I think not. I must admit it bothered me, but I never let it stop me from learning though participation.