It seems none of the blogging communities are immune from some serious infighting. Daily Kos has been struggling with clarification of their rules and defining the parameters of acceptable discourse. This has now erupted into an ugly mess with Hunter becoming so frustrated that he has threatened to call it quits.
“I think at long last I finally may just be done with this. Have a ball, and I sincerely hope that the new Daily Kos plan of concocting diaried slide shows for each other about your own inherent genius has the world impact you presume it will have.”
For background on how this all got started you can look at Jerome a Paris’s latest diary. Over on MyDD you see a different type of infighting. This time it is between front-pagers. As Chris Bowers pushes a challenge to DLC hero Ellen Tauscher he has to put up with disparaging remarks from Jerome Armstrong.
“I pretty much agree, what you are looking at with “Working For Us” is the raising and spending of $1M over a votes that didn’t happen this cycle, but the last or the last before. Wasted time, money and effort imo. It’s a vanity primary challenge.”
I don’t want to get into the unwritten rules between front-pagers. But you’ve got a problem when one front-pager publicly calls another’s efforts ‘vain’ and ‘wasted time’.
And it’s not just the big sites that are having community problems. This site and My Left Wing have also been struggling to avoid infighting. I’ll leave MLW out of this discussion for a couple of reasons. First, I’m really not familiar with what goes on over there, and second, the site has never been explicitly about getting Democrats elected. And that is the root of the problem that this site and the others are facing. We had a goal of getting Democrats elected and we succeeded. So, now what?
Never mind the unavoidable splintering of groups into cliques that support Obama or Edwards or Clinton or Richardson or whomever. There is something deeper going on. To understand it you have to understand why we were trying to get Democrats elected in the first place.
Let’s start where we have the broadest amount of agreement. Almost everyone involved in community blogging has been opposed to the war in Iraq. And almost everyone has been opposed to torture, the more extreme measures of Patriot Act, as well as warrantless wiretapping, and the suspension of habeas corpus. To generalize: we oppose the war and we oppose the executive power grab. Electing Democratic majorities was seen by most (correctly in my view) as the most effective way to end the war and restrain the executive branch.
To be sure, individuals have all kinds of other reasons to oppose the Bush administration and to support a more left-wing Congress. There is no need to itemize them, as they run the spectrum from women’s rights to education to environmentalism to voter’s rights to gay rights to urban issues and so on. Many activists would be dedicating their time and energy to these important issues even under a Democratic presidency or a more traditional Republican one.
Now that the Democrats control Congress, we all want to see some progress on issues of concern to us, but we especially want to see progress on ending the war and checking the executive branch. And there is frustration that the Democrats are not more united and are not more effective. That’s understandable.
But there is a deeper problem. For many, there was nothing particularly troubling about American politics under the Clinton administration. If we could just elect a Democrat to the Presidency and maintain our Congressional majorities, then we could go back to our lives and put our trust back in the government. This is a mindset that sees our current problems as almost exclusively stemming from the Bush administration.
But many of us have learned deeper lessons. It isn’t enough to go back to Clinton’s policies and Clinton’s Democratic Party. If nothing else, Clinton’s America carried the seeds for Bushism within it. We can’t go back to Clintonism unless we also destroy the seeds of Bushism. And those seeds involve a number of things that blogs and blogging communities are designed to address. Number one on the list is the media. It was the rise of right-wing media, think-tanks, and the media consolidation in the 1990’s that gave rise to Bushism. Blogs are a partial corrective for this. We provide a skeptical commentary on the media and reach an increasing number of Americans.
The media is not the only culprit in the rise of Bushism. Another problem has been the unexamined assumptions of American foreign policy. And these assumptions were as prevalent in the Clinton White House as they are in the Bush White House. We need to reconsider our role in the world, especially in the Middle East. And, from this standpoint, there is a real rift in the netroots. It is well spelled out in the dispute between Hunter and Jerome a Paris. It informed the dispute here between military families and peace activists. And it has an enormous role in the fight between the netroots and the DLC and outfits like The New Republic. It would be too simplistic to define it as a dispute between isolationists and interventionists. But you can think about it that way.
Many Democrats are concerned that opposition to the Iraq War will lead to a collapse of support for a wider array of America’s global roles and responsibilities. But a larger group of Democrats actually yearns for a reassessment of America’s roles and responsibilities and wants to use the failure of the Iraq War as a stepping stone to that reassessment. Count me among this latter group.
We’re often labeled as the ‘Blame America First’ crowd, but that is inaccurate. I have had my fights with members here that I do consider to be inclined to blame America first. I think about it a different way. I tend to think of it along the lines of Jesus’ admonition, “You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.” It’s not that America is to blame for the state of the world. But we need to have an honest appreciation of our own shortcomings, our own history, our own myths, our own policies.
For example, Clinton’s administration hyped the threat from Saddam Hussein because they needed to maintain support for the containment policy they inherited from the first Bush administration. The second Bush administration was then able to point to falsehoods told by Clinton to justify their own falsehoods. We can’t break the cycle of disinformation until we realize that Clinton lied to us too.
For many of us, and I know I can include Chris Bowers in this group, the election of a Democratic congress is only a starting point. At root, we are trying to challenge the broader foreign policy consensus in Washington. We’re trying to challenge the anti-universal health care consensus. We’re trying to tear down some of the myths that sustain an imperial foreign policy and a top-down domestic policy. To do that we have to constantly challenge the Democrats not to use tired talking points that reinforce those myths about our nation and about the left. We have to challenge Democrats like Joe Lieberman and Ellen Tauscher that use right-wing memes and support anti-progressive policies. The idea is to take over one of the two major political parties, rather than start a new one.
It’s a lonely task that invites lots of cynical sniping from those on the left that see working within the Democratic Party as a sell-out, or as hopeless, or as merely a way to gain power and money for ourselves. But the problem is that not everyone is innocent of those charges.
What does it mean to call a primary challenge to Ellen Tauscher a vain waste of time in the context of our larger goals? Why would we not challenge a DLC Democrat that opposed everything we stand for and everything we are trying to accomplish?
As I see it, Daily Kos and Jerome Armstrong have not articulated a goal that has any synergy with my goals. We still have a huge amount of common interests. But I am primarily interested in shifting the debate to the left, while they seem to be interested in boxing in the netroots into traditionally acceptable parameters of debate.
I don’t think that will do. It might bring us a result that they don’t want (a Hillary presidency), but it won’t fundamentally alter the assumptions and myths that made both Bushism and the invasion of Iraq possible. Are we going to gain something from Iraq or are we just going to end it so we fight another war on another day?
To summarize: goal one was to elect a Democratic congress. Goal two is to turn the Democratic Party into a progressive party. That means primaries. That means changing what is considered as the political fringe…which means changing the political center. The fight against Republicans required a lot of Democratic unity. But those days are over now. Now the battle is for the soul of the Democratic Party. And that means that it is the furthest thing from a waste of time to take on Ellen Tauscher and oppose Hillary Clinton.
Anyone that doesn’t get that does seem to be missing the point, or selling out.
Spot on BooMan.
Now the battle is for the soul of the Democratic Party. And that means that it is the furthest thing from a waste of time to take on Ellen Tauscher and oppose Hillary Clinton.
Anyone that doesn’t get that does seem to be missing the point, or selling out.
Say no more. You’ve said it all. The way things are headed the majority of American voters will be Independents.
Number one on the list is the media. It was the rise of right-wing media, think-tanks, and the media consolidation in the 1990’s that gave rise to Bushism. Blogs are a partial corrective for this. We provide a skeptical commentary on the media and reach an increasing number of Americans.
Techniques matter especially if you are angry about the propaganda and brain-washing being carried out by the MSM. Look at the new blog control terminology such as troll rating, being banned, and trusted user. What kind of freedom of media ideas supports or uses such words??? Anyone that is a trusted user at a blog site is either towing the line of the powerful elite or the owner. That is not media freedom either.
Personally what I think is going on is that the blog censorship techniques being devised for propaganda dissemination and brain-washing are beginning to be challenged by groups that are less than fringe and that creates major conflicts. The answer for me is no central censorship techniques, but just let the comments speak for themselves. If that spells the end of a blog, so be it!
Minimal censorship is useful because I’ve seen trolls destroy good forums before.
But the key there is minimal. I have no issues with censorship at BT. I had SERIOUS issues with censorship at Daily Kos.
Now the battle is for the soul of the Democratic Party.
Yes, and the battle for any soul will be bloody, protracted and acrimonious.
I, for one, am more interested in the issues you have outlined than about the Democratic Party per se. If the Dems can become progressive in both foreign and domestic policy, I’m with the Dems.
If they can’t, then the battle for the soul of the country becomes more complicated and more difficult — and probably more urgent.
If the Dems can become progressive in both foreign and domestic policy, I’m with the Dems.
Lately, I’m wondering what is considered a reasonable time from for that to happen? Seriously. Should we be annoyed today because they’re not as progressive a group we would like them to be? Is it next January, when they’ve had a year to start working together and aren’t meeting expectations? Or is it after another cycle of Congressional elections with competitive primaries aimed at taking people like Tauscher out?
I suspect everyone has a different idea about that. Some people think we should have given up already, while some people are more tenacious (or stubborn?) and don’t ever think of giving up.
And if people want to go green or independent as a means of getting a more progressive government, how are they planning on breaking their candidates into the current system of government? So far, Vermont seems to be the only state where third-party candidates are getting elected.
Sorry to throw all thse random questions out there, but I think they’re related to some of the infighting we’ve seen here, which is quite a bit different from the “back the establishment Dems” vs “get rid of the Dems who aren’t progressive” argument at myDD this week.
I look at how the Religious Reich got their folks into positions of power. For the most part, they didn’t go and jump right into the big-ticket races…they built up their power base slowly, first by taking positions on school boards and city councils, moving up to county boards of supervisors, then state offices, then finally up to the national stage.
It’s probably not going to be in my lifetime that we’ll have a completely progressive Democratic Party, but we can start the process now by encouraging younger progressives to run for those smaller races, so they can can work on affecting policy changes on a small level that can eventually be used as models for more dramatic changes, and eventually move up to those higher profile positions. I’m thinking of the movie “Dave” where the faux President asks the Vice President how he got into politics; he replied that he started out by running for city council, got elected, and just moved on up from there. With the power and the backing of the “netroots”, that can happen again…
Excellent point re starting at the lowest rungs. And I’m raising my hand as a guilt party. I have before me a ballot for a local Los Angeles city election, and have no clue whom to vote for or why. When I asked some progressive friends, I was saddened to find they were just as clueless as I was.
Whoever said “all politics is local” was right. And many of us are so caught up in the big dreams that we neglect the problems, which are really just opportunities, in our own backyard.
So I’m going to spend a good part of the next week trying to figure out who should be part of my city government. Why shouldn’t Los Angeles and California be a model for the nation? Why shouldn’t every community be?
I agree with you, it took the religious right decades of careful and patient planning to take over the Republican party. And look how effective they were. Do you think they had infighting like this along the way?
I don’t think we can really mke any judgements about the 110th congress just yet, and I don’t think we can say that the Dems will never become more progressive just yet. Since I don’t see any other realistic options, I’ll stick with pushing for more progressive candidates within the Dem party.
“So far, Vermont seems to be the only state where third-party candidates are getting elected.”
Don’t forget Connecticut! ;>)
If the neocons can take over the republican party, then surely we are on the way of taking over the democratic party. The wins the blogosphere saw in November were just the beginning. It took the neocons some 20 or 30 years to fully usurp the republican party. I think that the blogosphere can accomplish the same in less time because information moves so much faster now. Of course, that could just be my idealism shining through.
On the other hand, I can completely understand the more progressive members among us for being utterly disgusted with the Clintons and refuse to back Hillary. That is why we must do all we can to ensure that she loses the primary. If she wins the primary, it could split the democratic party, and that would be a travesty.
I am all for the primary process and we absolutely should challenge any democratic candidates that are right of center, like Lieberman, Hillary, and Tauscher.
LOL! I keep thinking that Joe guy from CT is a Republican!
FWIW, I’m of the “Journey of a thousand miles begins with one small step” school of thought. I’m not ready to walk away in disgust yet (although I do find myself shaking my head and cursing Harry Reid fairly frequently).
Definitely, primary challengers are a good way to push the party to the left. No more of this Bob Casey anointment crap.
I think we should look at the GOP to see clearly on this.
If your big thing is opposition to taxes or opposition to abortion…
They came up with the anti-tax pledge and they have insisted all their candidates be anti-choice.
Over time the party came to reflect those values in a fairly solid manner. The Club for Growth continues to do primary challenges to reinforce the tax thing.
On abortion, they have been getting their judges. Do the Wall Street types want to outlaw abortion? No. But they can’t control these folks anymore after ceding them so much power. At many points anti-abortion folks could have given up after realizing that the power brokers were just using them and just paying lip service to their issues.
But in the end they succeeded in taking over the party. They’ve made more inroads in opposing abortion than they ever could have accomplished in a third party.
I don’t like to compare myself to the anti-abortion crowd but there is a lesson there. You can change the party even as the power brokers within it are using you, paying you lip service, etc. But you have to fight over the long-haul, not get discouraged…you have to be cynical without letting cynicism deflect you from your goals. And eventually, the power brokers will cede you so much power that they can no longer control you. At that point, the party has changed into something different.
If we want a different kind of foreign policy, if we want universal health care, if we want de-consolidation of the media, if we want our civil rights back, then we are going to have to break the consensus on these issues within the higher echelons of the Democratic Party.
Along the way we will have countless opportunities to be insulted by the party and be dismissed by the party… and the temptation is to walk away from the party.
But there is no walking away from this two-party system. You are either within it or you are on the sidelines.
The only thing a third party can do is punish centrist thinking and try to teach one of the two parties to pander to their issues. But they can’t fundamentally alter the center because they have no power and cannot vote on or craft legislation.
Hey, the only third party I could really see supporting is one that splits the Republican voters and renders them meaningless.
Where is Ross Perot when you need him?
Exactly.
I would love to see a libertarian challenge that focuses on:
Give me one of those candidates and the Republican party will be split and cannot win a Presidential election. And, please, Pat Buchanan…I wasn’t talking about you.
To this I would add that our goal should be to overall train them to pander to the voters, not the power brokers!
If we want a different kind of foreign policy, if we want universal health care, if we want de-consolidation of the media, if we want our civil rights back, then we are going to have to break the consensus on these issues within the higher echelons of the Democratic Party.
Exactly. I think you’ve described what I consider the political project many of us on the blogs are involved in well there.
Another aspect of what we are seeing is a generational transition. We’ve got some folks who think the existing Dem political class is old and tired and it is the new folks’ turn. And they are right. But what they are interested in is less what they want to do with politics than in being the political class. That isn’t meant as an insult — it is just how it is. There are conflicts of interest between those who want “in” (and a place at the top) and those who want to change the location and direction of “in.” We can run along beside each other, but we aren’t doing the same thing.
You are asking important questions, CG. For me, I would like to see more effort NOW, knowing full well that most of the changes I desire will take time.
I do think the third party route is very difficult, to say the least. In some ways I would see a third party as a tool to put some leverage on one of the “major” parties.
No easy answers. But I truly don’t understand why the Dems seem so timid about rocking the boat. And I truly don’t understand working to elect Democrats who will bring us more of the same.
It’s less about time and more about movement, I think. Right now we’re in a position where bad people have imposed horrendous ideological depravity on virtually every aspect of our nation and its government, from the war to the executive power grab to electoral corruption to overt royalism and much more.
With the house burning down, the only measure of how the Democrats are doing has to be how well they at least begin to put out an inferno that’s been destroying us since at least 1980. When that’s mostly accomplished, we can shift our judgment to consider the worthiness of the new building they want to put over the scorched earth.
I’m already annoyed that Conyers has not been turned loose in full attack mode. Even if it never went anywhere, at least it would force them to defend and would use up much of their resources doing so. The Highlander branch of my family had a motto, “With A Strong Hand”, civil but firm, I say.
As to the third party idea, an acquaintance of mine ran for secretary of state here last year, the idea being let’s get the ballot opened up for the Greens. He and his supporters got thousands to sign his ballot petition. They devoted tremendous amounts of time, energy and money to the effort. They fell a little short on signatures, but he ran as a write-in anyway. The results are sadly predictable, as the deck is seriously stacked against anyone breaking into the club, especially in a red state like this one. Here’s what happened:
Pearson, Joe (Democrat) 746460
Kole, Mike (Libertarian) 54381
Rokita, Todd (Republican) 835915
Stant, Bill (W/I(Green)) 342
All things considered, I’m sticking with Howard Dean a little longer.
keep in mind that it took 6-8 years for us to even get this far. rome wasn’t built in a day, and the democratic party won’t be built in a couple years.
we’ve only just got a marginal majority, and the mmm (multi-millionaire media) is still doing everything to marginalize the left.
you can’t give up.
sigh…yet another example of the little guys having the deck stacked against them. In 2002, the Independence Party of MN (MNIP) had a very strong candidate for governor in Tim Penny. Friday before the elections, there was even a Time article about MN leading the field in third parties, because there was a heated 30/30/30 polling split between the three major candidates.
Among several problems with the campaign, Penny refused to play dirty, but he went a bit too far by not defending himself, at least until it was too late. The Sunday before the elections, even though the MNIP is considered one of the major parties in this state, and had met all the debate criteria, a local PBS show included a rep for the Democrats, and a rep for the Republicans. No entrance for the MNIP. The other two parties took advantage of the situation by double-teaming and ridiculing Penny, in a despicable game where he wasn’t allowed representation. (IIRC, Penny ended up with 16% of the votes, when he had the potential to win merely days before. Lots of other campaign problems, including Ventura royally messing things up for him the day before the election, but that’s neither here nor there right now.)
Another great candidate was Jim Moore, who was running for U.S. Senate. He identified the major problems and offered…(gasp!)…great solutions. Loved watching him in debates. Problem was, it was the election between Wellstone (followed by Mondale) and Coleman. Even though Moore met all the qualifications, he wasn’t allowed to participate in a highly televised debate, because The Powers That Be determined he’d be taking valuable air time away from the much anticipated Mondale/Coleman debate.
I guess that pretty much sums up the fairness of the media-backed political system for viable third parties.
who will cross the aisle and vote against our self-interests at the first opportunity? When it comes to reproductive choice or stem cell research, what makes Casey better than Santorum, for example?
I’d much rather reform the Democratic Party than to start a whole new one — there’s a lot of structure that’s needed in any large organization, and often it’s better (and cheaper) to just do a major remodeling than to totally tear down and rebuild. But if the structure is filled with termites and dry rot, there may be no other choice than to tear it down and build anew.
IIRC, Bill O’Reilly and many of the talking heads predicted the dissolution of the liberal blogosphere if the Democrats regained control — after all, what would we have to bitch about? Well, we’ve got the legislative branch, but there’s still the executive and judicial to concern ourselves with. I’m especially worried about the judicial — these folks are selected by the power elite and basically serve for life with no question, yet have a profound impact on the nation for years after those who appointed them have passed from the political scene. Maybe that’s where we need to look in the future.
One more thing then I’ll shut up — I think the tussles that are going on in the liberal blogosphere are based a bit in too narrow a focus — we need to set our sights wider. You quoted Jesus above — the Bible also talks about empowering the people to go out and do the work of the Church. At the end of the post-Communion prayer in my church, we say, “Let us go out and do the work You have given us to do, with gladness and singleness of heart.” Maybe we need a similar call to action…to do the work that we as progressives must do to transform our nation and our world. (I’m still trying to figure out what that work is for me — perhaps after YearlyKos I’ll have a better idea; I’m not going to bask in anyone’s afterglow, but to help, to learn, and maybe even to teach…)
They’ve been working on the legal front for a while now too:
The Federalist Society
Right on point.
And:
Anyone that doesn’t get that does seem to be missing the point, or selling out.
I personally am not sure that the Democratic Party CAN be changed. Too much money pulling the other way.
But since there has arisen no other viable party (I think that Dean blew it, unfortunately. He made his decision to stay inside with the best of intentions…and a not inconsiderable amount of success so far…and we will not see the real results of that decision until a few years have passed.), the Dems are the only shot that we have to challenge “the broader foreign policy consensus in Washington. ..the anti-universal health care consensus…[and] some of the myths that sustain an imperial foreign policy and a top-down domestic policy.”
But…given that strategic choice, tactically you are absolutely right.
Let us pray.
And then…let us work.
You also write:
The media is not the only culprit in the rise of Bushism. Another problem has been the unexamined assumptions of American foreign policy.
Again…right on the money.
Only thing? As I tried to illustrate in my last post (Bread and Circuses. Media. Its name Is Legion. Some Chomsky As Well.) and as Noam Chomsky has SO well described in so many of his pieces, “the media” is the REASON that so many assumptions in American policies of ALL types are so often unexamined in terms of the broad, voting public.
For example (From that post linked above, quoting a Chomsky interview. Emphasis mine.):
Chomsky: Oh they’re there. There’s a constant stream of abuse and attack by the government and therefore the media, who are almost reflexively against Venezuela. For several reasons. Venezuela is independent. It’s diversifying its exports to a limited extent, instead of just being dependent on exports to the United States. And it’s initiating moves toward Latin American integration and independence. It’s what they call a Bolivarian alternative and the United States doesn’t like any of that.
This again is defiance of U.S. policies going back to the Monroe Doctrine. There’s now a standard interpretation of this trend in Latin America, another kind of party line. Latin America is all moving to the left, from Venezuela to Argentina with rare exceptions, but there’s a good left and a bad left. The good left is Garcia and Lula, and then there’s the bad left which is Chavez, Morales, maybe Correa. And that’s the split.
In order to maintain that position, it’s necessary to resort to some fancy footwork. For example, it’s necessary not to report the fact that when Lula was re-elected in October, his foreign trip and one of his first acts was to visit Caracas to support Chavez and his electoral campaign and to dedicate a joint Venezuelan-Brazilian project on the Orinoco River, to talk about new projects and so on. It’s necessary not to report the fact that a couple of weeks later in Cochabamba, Bolivia, which is the heart of the bad guys, there was a meeting of all South American leaders. There had been bad blood between Chavez and Garcia, but it was apparently patched up. They laid plans for pretty constructive South American integration, but that just doesn’t fit the U.S. agenda. So it wasn’t reported.
—snip—
You can’t mention Hezbollah in the U.S. media without putting in the context of “Iranian-supported Hezbollah.” That’s its name. Its name is Iranian-supported Hezbollah. It gets Iranian support. But you can mention Israel without saying US-supported Israel. So this is more tacit propaganda. The idea that Hezbollah is acting as an agent of Iran is very dubious. It’s not accepted by specialists on Iran or specialists on Hezbollah. But it’s the party line. Or sometimes you can put in Syria, i.e. “Syrian-supported Hezbollah,” but since Syria is of less interest now you have to emphasize Iranian support.
The media IS Job One.
Without that job being accomplished to some degree …a concerted attack on media lying and spin, both from the point of blog truth-telling AND by some sort of NEWSTRIKE!!!-like boycott…then all we will get is Plan A Lite, DemocRatpublicans in power instead of simple Ratpubs.
Which might perhaps be WORSE, because there goes another 5 or 6 years before the voting public begins to awaken from its most recent hypnotically induced trance state.
However…,take the swinging pocket watch or rotating spiral OUT OF THE HANDS OF THE HYPNOTISTS…take their tools away or at least make them less effective…and then you have a shot.
A shot at awakening enough people to have a real effect on electoral politics.
I said it several years ago when I first entered the blog lists, spear in hand, and I continue to say it now despite very little practical success at assembling some sort of organization or real power.
OPPOSITION TO THE CORPORATE MEDIA IS JOB ONE!!!
THERE is where the key to this whole puzzle lies.
Again…
Let us pray.
And then let us get to work.
Peace…
AG
P.S. The sideline stuff? Suffering, meta-bullshit, co-opting on the level of dKos?
FUGGEDABOUDIT!!!
Casualties of war.
Deserters.
Shell shock.
The results of enemy infiltration.
This is a WAR.
Incidental losses are gong to happen.
But…
The old man was right.
As above, so below.
This IS war, and the adversaries are the same as they were then.
It is just being fought on a different level.
As Churchill also said:
Yup.
Or, as another great Englishman once said:
(Lord Buckley, the founder of contempoary socio-political comedy to whom all political comedians from Lenny Bruce right through Lewis Black and Margaret Cho owe their whole schtick.)
Have fun…
AG
The Incontrovertible Truth. In the End, There It Is. (Churchill)
Yup.
AG
I posted this nearly a year ago, and it looks like it is more true today.
Pretty much right on point with your post, Boo….
Terrific Posting Clammy – pragmatic and hopeful. Maybe you should re-post every couple of months for awhile!
Excellent post, and all the more worthwhile because it is without the chewemupspitemout prose. Thanks for that.
By nature we like verbal rumbles, perhaps moreso after the midterms when we received a taste of success and suddenly all issues were back on the table. Your step-back and look how we got here perspective is the most reasonable I’ve heard because, frankly, I’m tired of being in the position of chasing and/or reacting to Bush’s policies.
Getting to the genesis as well as the process of how we got here rather than just running behind Bush with a wheelbarrow and scooping up the turds is the only way to finally get out ahead of the mindset he represents.
BTW, I sent you a great video, which reminds me as I read your post of how good old fashioned grassroots common thinking can outproduce a whole army of professionals.
I think that the blogosphere and its major “meeting nodes” are big enough and healthy enough to tolerate a certain amount of wasteful infighting. It makes it no less unfortunate, but probably tolerable.
As to the substantive issue around, say, Tauscher, I think it’s useful to maintain the credible threat of a primary challenge even if there winds up being none. Just knowing that such is possible will keep that Northern California, blue-district Dem from being too accommodating to the Republican wing of the Democratic Party.
Spot on. You’ve both articulated exactly what we should be working for and put your finger on what’s behind the recent infighting at liberal and progressive blogs. A great analysis at both the meta and substantive levels.
I hope that what you articulate here will gradually become the consensus of the progressive blogosphere.
I think I’m missing the point somewhere in all this discussion-which is great so far-why does this have to be a either or decision? Why has this come down to such a seemingly life or death issue to people? People on both sides of this issue should be natural allies instead of fighting against other as both want the same thing don’t they? Progressive leadership.
Why does anyone have to hew to a certain party line? Why can’t progressive dems work to rebuild the democratic party to what they want it to be or it should be…why can’t the people who don’t believe that’s the way to go work with the green party or whoever they choose to support…..if we are all working to get real progressives elected and out there why can’t this eventually be a boon to both sides of this issue? Yes I know people will talk about vote splitting and so on but I believe in the long run that if we have more than one party of candidates who are progressive then we can be changing the perception of voters and towards progressive candidates…and isolate the damn republicans in their own sorry mindset. And yes this kind of thing won’t happen overnight just like the religious nut rethugs worked for many many years to get their party where it is today.
What I really believe is that the two party system and the electoral college needs to go down and public funding is needed for campaigns…giving everyone a chance to run on whatever ticket and the top 2 then have the run off vote. That to me would be more democratic.
There are things that can be done on the fringes to break down the two-party duopoly. You can fight for run-off elections where the winner must get 50% (as in Lousisiana) and you can work for proportianal representation on the state and local level. You can fight for constitutional amendments to change the electoral college. You can try to get electoral votes apportioned by congressional district, rather than state-wide (like in Nebraska and Maine).
There are things you can do. But you can’t change the system very much until you succeed first at making those changes.
In the meantime, we have winner take-all elections where a mere plurality wins almost all elections.
This is a two-party system. And every person that is voting green is taking their issues outside of the system and thereby marginalizing those views. I may not agree with greens on some issues but I agree with them enough that I would much rather have them inside the party helping me fight the DLC than outside sniping at me for being a sell-out.
Once again you have “hit” the nail on the head – Well done Boo! And like you – I am in the latter group here.
However, our success in the Primaries, seems to have created some Chaos and Havoc.
First the attacks, especially on Jerome or Chris disturb me. Jerome is a godsend – and we are very, very fortunate to have his genius working to our advantage, thanks to Boo who helped him on board with the European Tribune. That also applies to ALL our European cousins, (soj, Oui et al) who expend a great deal of their time and effort in broadening our understanding. Geographically, America was isolated for over 200 years due to two oceans. Many years ago a Frenchman said to me “You Americans are like friendly puppies-You seem to need to have everyone like you and are hurt if they don’t”. So True! Modern technology has changed the “geography” so to speak. Europe went thru 2 ghastly Wars in the 20th Century – They have a wisdom and maturity that can only benefit and enhance our perspectives.
Chris Bowers continuously gives of himself for the benefit of the netroots. If you don’t agree with him he has an email address whereby you can discuss the issue. Publicly slamming him, makes the netroots look as juvenile and whinny as the Congress and lately they have really Pissed me Off!
The next thing I see is that (hopefully) we are in a transition period and we will get our priorities lined up where we focus on a few things at a time instead of being scattered all over the place and thus earning the negative “whimpy” label. Media is definitely a top priority- wouldn’t it be nice to easily get the information here in the USA, instead of having to search all over the net for it? Ending Iraq, preventing Iran and other wars, while simultaneously pushing forward on energy and Global warming is right up there also. Congress needs to be holding serious hearings and in-depth investigations. The net roots needs to be strategizing on how best to eliminate the Torture bill, the Patriot Act, FISA violations and the firing of US Attorneys. We also need to take on Election Finance Reform, and Voter Fraud issues.
This race for States to be first primaries has scared me to death. I almost flipped where the fact that Obama got 20,000 in an audience is the biggest deal going- sorta on the same level as Brittany Spear’s hair, and Anna Nicole Smith’s demise. This cacophony of “me first” and “look at that shinny thing there” seems as if our next president is going to be the one who is well spoken and has “star” power. This is frightening and to me very shallow.
How do we know the specifics of what someones policy agenda will be? Do they have the depth of experience, maturity, poise and stature that we absolutely must have in the next president to even start repairing the international disaster our country has become? Presidential candidates appearing in HUGE venues, and getting to cherry pick the questions they WANT to answer is, IMHO, NOT the way to select a person. We need to force these presidential wannabe’s (and all candidates)into small settings, open ended town hall type meetings, and the test of time, to evaluate their responses and behaviors. Seeing how they handle a grueling, year long contact with the “great unwashed masses” will tell more about them than pre-defined debates, and huge venues. I wrote certain questions to each presidential candidate. Hillary, Richardson, and Clark have not responded. Obama sent me a picture of himself and a request for donations,(as if I am a 61 year old star struck groupie). John Edwards answered 4 out of 7 questions, Chris Dodd, I am waiting for his answers here, or perhaps I missed it. If so, can someone provide me the link -b Thanks!
So absolutely primaries are crucial for a democracy – but so is the method in which we run these primaries.
The Dems lost me three days after the election and sealed it shut with HR 1. While I can make a clear case that Bush is the third antichrist I find the “progressive” party just as satanic. Bans from major “progressive” boards don’t help either.
If the party isn’t listening now how are they going to undo five solid years of Bush’s Hiltarian crap.
No wonder there is infighting
Restraining executive power? I can think of no more important and lasting change we could make. It seems feasible, and now is the time to start.
The Constitution gives shockingly little support for the idea that legitimate presidential power extends much beyond enforcing decisions made by Congress. Even the veto merely places a check on today’s Congress changing policies established by a past Congress.
Experience shows that a “Decider” wielding today’s massive powers can place the United States at grave risk almost by whim. Even a Congress dominated by a single obnoxious party would be more stable and less dangerous than an executive dominated by a single unhinged clique.
Democrats could outflank Republicans and help save the Republic by becoming leading a movement for lawful, constitutional government — and that means not merely placing “checks” on usurped executive powers, but removing them. The Constitution gives Congress all the power it needs, if Congress can muster a supermajority.
The time is ripe to try. This is our best chance — Now, before the Democrats win another brief interlude of executive power. Now, while Republicans are in revolt against Bush, fearful (at last!) of the imperial presidency, and facing the prospect of losing that presidency to their opposition.
Re-balancing government should be a fundamentally nonpartisan cause, yet in reality this cause would split the Republican base along the line dividing conservative-leaning voters from radical right-wing authoritarians.
Let’s beat the drums.
If I may repeat some observations regarding the constitutional powers of the presidency:
First, consider the President’s constitutional powers over the executive branch itself:
This is an example of the awesome, almost god-like constitutional powers of the President: not merely to demand opinions from a few, specific people in “his” branch of government, but to demand that those opinions be given in writing! Does this sound like part of a description of power of a boss over employees, when it is one of the few powers mentioned?
A boss can hire employees. A president has the inherent power to hire…no one at all. The president can nominate, but the Senate decides, unless it chooses, for the moment, to delegate that power. It would seem that equating “the executive branch” with “the presidency” is mistaken. He isn’t the boss of the organization, but he does have the duty (Article Two) to “take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed”.
But what about the powers of the President as Commander in Chief? We’re told that these are almost unlimited. Yet Congress (not the President) holds the constitutional powers (Article One, Section 8) “To declare war” and “To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces”. Indeed, according to present law and practice, the Commander in Chief — the wartime “unitary executive” — can’t even promote a military officer to General without Senate consent, because Congress hasn’t delegated that power.
The direct constitutional powers of the presidency are small. Other powers are either either delegated by Congress, constructed by the courts, in gray areas, or illegal. Inappropriately delegated powers can be revoked. Inappropriately constructed powers can be proscribed, litigated, and reconsidered by the courts. Powers in gray areas can be clarified by law. Exercises of illegal powers can be prosecuted as criminal or impeachable offenses.
It is Congress, not the President, that has vast powers. Congress rules.
I see BT trying to manage the discussion as a community, not as an in-group trying to manage an distrusted-group or groups. And I think the discussion of the BT reason for existence
(from the diary) should proceed apace.
I was at a training elements of our county party provided on blogging last Spring. Some of our precinct chairs wanted to understand the blog world, and were wondering how it fit into the “real world” of doing politics. We were lucky to have Sean-Paul Kelley come to be part of the panel. And his explanation of the Overton Window in very plain, simple language (using his whole physical self as an illustration, Godde bless him) made the most sense for the explanation of the current importance of left Blogistan. It is the only tool we have at our disposal to break the assumptions of the current, toxic Republican Zeitgeist, and move some of our own assumptions into a New Zeitgeist. That’s why this tool is so vital, and why it must not be co-opted or hyper-managed. It will no longer be an effective tool in moving the body of our collective assumptions leftward if it becomes bound by the old “parameters of debate”. As Booman so clearly noted:
When it comes to poliotical strategy, Kos is as good as Bush is when it comes to war strategy. He is not about Democrats wining. If he was. he would not be dissing independents and 3rd party people, because those are the same ones that we will need for democrats to win. As a matter of fact, he might be working real hard for those that we desperately need will give us their backs when we most need them.
amen to that.
If we allow others to s;inter us, then we will again get a Bush. It means, as you say, finding those things we CAN agree on and push for those. I feel that the war is certainly something a majority CAN agree about (getting OUT of Iraq) and I feel that we should be able to agree on oversight and changing and revamping the so-called Terrist legislation (the AUMF and the Pathetic Act for a couple.) Probably though we will have to impeach to get Bush and Cheney out of the way. But if they hold real good comprehensive hearings, that will come as a matter of course. I have no doubt that both Bush and Cheney raided the treasury and sold the Americans out. I realize that impeachment IS NOT something we all agree on, but hearings on the matter of the handling of the war might change that tale.
Also available in orange where we might expect it to meet with some hostility.
“You may break any written law in America with impunity. There is an unwritten law that you break at your own peril. It is: do not attack the profit system.” (Mary Heaton Vorse)
“some”?
I just skimmed through the comments there. Judging by the response, maybe that was a waste of time.
But I admire your making the effort. (Most of the posters at dKos now come across to me as AI entities.)
I agree with Gore Vidal that the seeds for the Imperial run that is now at the beginning of its end started with Harry Truman.
The Empire was a bipartisan gig, always.
If Clinton may be blamed for anything it is for merely delivering a tiny fraction of the peace dividend that should have come when the USSR ended… there was a window there where the wingers hadn’t quite identified the endless enemies list.
Now that window is closed, and the seeds of the decline of the USA are all well planted and watered. This is an inefficient society. Our energy costs are enormous, our health care system will soon require 1/5 of all our resources, and we attempt to keep an empire of bases open in 130+ countries in spite of the fact that we’re already the world’s biggest debtors. Not to mention that we’ve pissed off everyone.
We depend on the kindness of strangers (mostly from the Chinese central bank), as Chalmers Johnson put it, and soon they will indeed pull the plug. Get used to “two Americas” because that’s our development model: massive inequality. The world better get used to it, too, because it’s the development model of its two most populous nations.
Damn straight Booman!!!!!
I SUDDENLY FLASHED ON WHY AL’S KEEPING US WAITING…
how many more mozambique/katrinas would it take before al could win on a green party ticket?
now that would be cool, except for the first part.
an organic soy-chicken in every (legal) pot, and a prius in every garage?
a war on ERROR?
a war on waste?
a war on war?
peace on peace?
Well said, BM.
The fish starts rotting at the head, but eventually you need a whole new fish, because the rest of it’s rotten, too.
Beyond that, I don’t have much to add to the conversation. You’re more committed to the strategy and more articulate about what needs to be done than I could ever hope to be.
I’ve tried to stay away from the flaming/meta stuff – that Hunter/Jerome thing is much too painful to watch. These are good people with good ideas, and they’re spending time in a pissing match? What a waste.
It’s like an Armando diary the other day, castigating members of the House Democratic caucus for going public with their questions/doubts about Murtha’s plan – keep it private, guys.
I’ve been spending more time at TBogg and Sadly, No! Poking fun at wingnuts takes the edge off the more serious stuff like Sy Hersh’s recent piece.