If I were Bush’s media advisor, or his framing expert, or whatever, I would advise Bush not to invoke the example of Vietnam while trying to buck up America’s resolve to stay in Iraq.
There is a tiny slice of Americans, mostly Republicans, who think we would have won the war in Vietnam is we had just kept at it. These people can be pretty noisy, but they constitute a vanishingly small percentage of the electorate.
The aftermath of our pullout from Vietnam was indeed ugly. The war spilled over into Cambodia and a genocide wiped out some ungodly percentage of the population there. Ordinary Americans, for the most part, were just relieved to be out of Indochina.
USA Today reports that Bush is going to try to use the specter of Vietnam to justify more war.
President Bush plans to argue today that a hasty “retreat” from Iraq would lead to the kinds of bloodbaths that followed U.S. withdrawals from Vietnam and Cambodia in the 1970s…
“Will their elected leaders in Washington pull the rug out from under them just as they are gaining momentum and changing the dynamic on the ground in Iraq?” Bush says in prepared remarks released by the White House late Tuesday.
We all know all about how Bush and Cheney avoided serving in Vietnam. Now they join the fringe group of dead-enders that believe the war should have continued deep into the 1970’s.
Regardless of how one feels about U.S. involvement in that war, Bush says, the U.S. withdrawal in the mid-1970s did not end the killing in Vietnam or in neighboring Cambodia.
“One unmistakable legacy of Vietnam is that the price of America’s withdrawal was paid by millions of innocent citizens whose agonies would add to our vocabulary new terms like ‘boat people,’ ‘re-education camps,’ and ‘killing fields,’ ” Bush’s speech says.
The Vietnam War was not my generation’s war, but it is deeply ironic that Bush would invoke the carnage caused by our disastrous decision to fight there. The genocide in Cambodia, for example, has been seen by progressives as a kind of case in point about the unintended consequences of needless foreign adventurism. And then there is that old saw about putting down the shovel when you find yourself in a hole.
There were many ideological arguments made against invading Iraq. Those were, at least, debatable. But there was a practical argument that shouldn’t have been debatable. The practical argument was that Iraq would fly apart and become ungovernable. Dick Cheney made that argument in 1994. George H.W. Bush and Brent Scowcroft made that argument in their 1990’s book. It was common wisdom until neo-conservatives took over and Dick Cheney went insane.
As for rebutting the administration’s new argument, I’ll leave it to one of the premiere historians of the Vietnam War.
Vietnam historian Stanley Karnow said Bush is reaching for historical analogies that don’t track. He said, “Vietnam was not a bunch of sectarian groups fighting each other,” as in Iraq. In Cambodia, the Khmer Rouge toppled a U.S.-backed government.
“Does he think we should have stayed in Vietnam?” Karnow asked.
When you talk to your friends, family, and co-workers, ask them the same question.
Interesting parallel with Vietnam – an attack was ginned up to justify US aggression.
How many “intelligence blunders” constitutes a pattern and policy of deliberately looking the other way?
http://www.iranaffairs.com/iran_affairs/2007/08/more-pre-911-in.html
whether the attack was ginned up is questionable, but the intelligence was certainly ginned up.
I’m trying to understand the point here.
As I recall, and my memory may not be entirely accurate: there was evidence that the US was attempting to provoke North Vietnam by ignoring their claims to territorial boundaries offshore — which North Vietnam unilaterally declared and weren’t recognized by international treaty.
This point may be somewhat moot, since the attack itself doesn’t appear to have occurred, and that was recognized by the Naval officer in charge, who had made the original report.
The crux of the issue is in the US government’s failure to acknowledge that the reporting officer had almost immediately (within hours) issued disclaimers regarding his initial report, which were apparently ignored.
Segueing slightly — the focus on the Gulf of Tonkin incident may missing the forest for the trees, and I don’t think this point is lost on anyone here.
There are two issues that come to mind concerning Vietnam; one is Eisenhower’s refusal to allow elections, as was agreed to in the Paris Accords; the second is the persistence of the “stabbed in the back” myth, which attributes our loss to a loss of will rather than a military loss. I’ve grown tired of the re-writing of the history of the Vietnam war, and I’m even more disturbed by meme that blames our loss there on protesters, since it implicitly blames military losses on dissenters here, which is the initial stage of fascism.
Another thing that can’t be ignored is the effect of the McCarthy crusade and the ‘Who Lost China’ debate, and the stalemated Korean War, and the sputnik, and the Kruschev ‘we will bury you speech’, and the Bay of Pigs fiasco.
All of that combined to put inordinate pressure on a Democratic administration to take a tough line on communism in a place where it looked like a piece of cake.
The breathtaking hubris of Bush’s argument once again leads to the elephant in the room that even most liberals don’t want to deal with: Bush is either literally batshit psychotic or a sworn enemy of the United States. The horrors he dredges up were direct results of US actions. Period. The guilt for them continues to haunt this country. Iraq sent the world the incredible message that the US learned nothing from Vietnam, that we appear to be the most dangerous rogue state in the world.
There is an irony you don’t touch on: Bush’s argument for staying makes it imperative that a proven insane failure not be in charge. You don’t send in the pyromaniac to put out the fire. So here’s a deal: the Dems will commit to not insisting on immediate withdrawal if Bush, Cheney and the rest of this administration are removed by resignation or impeachment. Even the worst wingnut can no longer imagine that the current regime could possibly pull any kind of success out of the catastrophe they, and they alone, made happen.
My theory on this has been that we can’t leave until we have a new administration and we can wait to leave. Essentially, the impeachment of Bush and Cheney is a strategic decision The Establishment should make for beginning to fix our problem in Iraq.
This would be a problem if there were no obvious grounds for impeachment, but that is far from the case.
First we get new leadership, then we out of Iraq.
But the Democrats take a different view, which is basically that things are so screwed up in Iraq that we can’t get bogged down in a constitutional crisis at home that distracts us. I very much understand this theory but…how’s it working out?
should say ‘can’t wait to leave’
No, I believe that she thinks the Dems can win it. No links, just a hunch.
Kerry was spouting the same bullshit for a while, too.
Hey, I’ll second that hunch of yours. From everything she’s said about this sorry mess is not that invading Iraq was wrong to start with but that bushco has simply mismanaged the whole damn thing…and she can do better.
I truly hate to say it, but as the first female president Hillary’s most powerful temptation will be to prove that she can win a war better than any man. She would certainly be vastly better than Bush at negotiating a “least bad” salvage operation, but she doesn’t want to prove her skill in that arena. I think her statements make that inclination quite clear.
…why do you hate America?
You are, after all, CORRECT but you’re not being a good patriot. Don’t we have some freedom fries to munch on?
The breathtaking hubris of Bush’s argument once again leads to the elephant in the room that even most liberals don’t want to deal with: Bush is either literally batshit psychotic or a sworn enemy of the United States.
Actually, I think most people DO know he’s batshit psychotic, but think it’s better to pretend. If you acknowledge there’s a problem, then you’re on the hook for solving it. And “we” are not about to do that.
It would be too big of an admission that something was wrong–though everyone in the world knows that already. I think we want to save face and go on believing that our government works. If we admit that it has not…that it has been undermined…then that is too much of an admission of weakness in front of the world and in front of the citizens. And–clutch the pearls–who knows what would happen then? People might start demanding stuff like rights and all. Could get ugly.
“We” are not about to go there. So we limp along, hoping and praying that he can’t do any more damage than he’s already inflicted when all evidence is to the contrary.
Well, we easily SAY he’s insane, but I think much of this comes across as rhetoric and hyperbole, which allows even the “left and liberals” to avoid the reality. It is simply unthinkable that a president (and, don’t forget, pretty much his whole administration) is psychotic or subversive. Too much like some movie. Can’t happen here.
Which is pretty much what you said, except I think the problem is more about faith-based delusions about America than thinking about the practical consequences of facing reality.
If this latest stunning babble about Vietnam doesn’t do it, I don’t guess anything will Bottom line: if we don’t impeach, his taint will be ours as a nation for generations: we will be his minions unless we stop him.
Bottom line: if we don’t impeach, his taint will be ours as a nation for generations: we will be his minions unless we stop him.
And I can’t say it any better than that.
Oh, this is so off-topic…or maybe not…but I just saw the funniest thing: the official WH guide to stopping protesters. How I wish I had time to write a diary about this: White House Manual Details How to Deal With Protesters. Oooh. Can’t have the bubble popped by reality!
OK. Back to work for me.
I vote for both-batshit psychotic and sworn enemy of US…no law says he can’t be both.
Who says he can’t multi-task? Bleh.
Stanley Karnow’s history of Vietnam is a good book to actually read, if you need to read something that actually reads like what it really was and all the players involved.. I have read it and it is the gospel on this issue.
Vietnam was my war and many others here. I think we can dispute anything this pResident has to say about it. Actually it was his speech writers that are saying this shit. He doesn’t know shit about VN. He stayed as far away from that country as he possibly could. How would he know what the hell went on there…I am very disturbed as to the way he performed on the stage of information to the public..I happen to think he will fail miserably on all of this speech production and it will throw him down the tube even more. God forgive him of his ignorance for he really does not know the truth–history– of anything! He is really a blabbering idiot! And to have the VFW applaud him on this is way beyond the pale IMHO! These ppl know differently, for heavens sake. Now do you want me and others to go onward and debunk this man’s ignorance about OUR war or not!!??
You know, I almost spit my coffee out this morning. I just CANNOT FRIGGIN BELIEVE he said it. And to have the VFW clap politely to a bunch of bunk?
He is just SORRY. What do you expect from a spoiled, drunken, draft-dodging brat with an amazingly large sense of entitlement? My God, it was just breathtaking.
Just when I don’t think I can be outraged anymore…just, wow. And his minions are all a bunch of Monica Goodlings–all they ever wanted to do was serve this guy. I’m starting to believe that they really do think he’s a god to be worshiped. There’s crackpot ideology, and then there’s just plain nonsense.
To even come out of his mouth and say anything about Vietnam is just dumb, politically stupid and patently insane. And I’m sick to death of my party just sitting around, praying he won’t get worse. Stevie Wonder can see how this all works…MY CATS understand how he works. Stop cowering! Get up off your knees and ITMFA!
Leave it to bush to bring up Vietnam-he really has no shame has he besides being dumber than a bowl of alphabet soup.
I remember him saying when asked about discussions in college on Vietnam and he said he couldn’t recall anyone ever having any discussions on Nam…so everyone in the country had opinions on VN especially on college campuses except where he was at..yeah right. Then again I don’t doubt that he did ignore completely any discussions going on..what was it to him anyway. I guess god whispered in his ear that this week was his week to be an expert on Vietnam.
Does it not lend creedence to my deliberate destruction of America theme.
Words of mass division, classification.
in a situation like this,
“Well, you should have thought of that before you invaded.”
Bush is more concerned what Al-Qaida thinks about the war then the American people. I want to know what he is doing to prevent the terrorist from following the American troops home? I say this in humor after reading this weeks Doonesbury Comic Strip.
There is a really good comeback to the “Viet Nam” argument posted here:
Wednesday, August 22, 2007
The Vietnam Syndrome
“The Emperor of Mespotamia today compared his splendid little war in Iraq with the U.S. police action (as it was officially known) in Vietnam. He invoked the “price of withdrawal” in Vietnam as evidence that terrible things will happen if the U.S. withdraws from Iraq.
– snip –
“The Emperor today invoked “boat people, reeducation camps, and killing fields” as the consequence. The killing fields, in Cambodia, had nothing whatever to do with the U.S. withdrawing from Vietnam. They were a consequence of the U.S. intervening in Cambodia. The boat people were U.S. collaborators who were forced to leave the country after their protectors withdrew. That’s unfortunate, but hardly the stuff of nightmares. Reeducation camps were six month experiences after which the participants were fully accepted as citizens.
“That’s it. That’s the catastrophe….No dominoes fell. Nothing bad happened….
“
It is well worth reading the whole thing.
Oh, yes, and the author is also one of the tireless editors on Iraq Today, the most consistent and comprehensive daily roundup of events, news and views on Iraq. Highly, highly recommended!
why now, when for the past 4 years they’ve denied there was any parallel?
from the prime time presser 13 april 2004:
the only conclusion l can come to is that this is the first phase of a major effort to re-write the history of iraq, as well as vietnam…spin the loss onto the d‘s and peaceniks. nevermind that those who were, and remain, opposed to this fiasco have been nearly 100% correct in their assessment, and those responsible for it, have conversely, been 100% wrong.
lTMF’sA
but we didn’t clap, so it’s gotta be our fault.
well, as far as l’m concerned, we’ll take the blame, just like they tried to do to us during and after nam….just get the fuck out.
opening up old wounds with disingenuous, false history bs like this is a new nadir even for BushCo™.
“Waiting to find out what price
You have to pay to get out of
Going through all these things twice.”
dylan
lTMF’sA