A reader asks a sincere question:
BooMan:
I don’t have the answers to your questions, but I do have a sincere question for you. You are concerned about the possibility that Clinton getting the nomination might alienate “blacks, the youth vote, Obama’s supporters, progressive activists” etc. Are you also concerned about the converse? Because… I am hearing a lot from the other side about alienated and angry white women, seniors, centrist democrats, etc.
My question is sincere – I don’t want an argument. I wonder whether you see any problems with severely alienating these democratic groups as well. Do you care about those groups? I personally don’t want to see any of them alienated and I’m disheartened at the level of animosity between groups. But I don’t think that some groups are more deserving of concern than others either.
Thank you.
Here’s a sincere answer.
First, let’s make sure we are clear on what I am asking the Clinton campaign to do. I want them to suspend their campaign and acknowledge that she cannot win the nomination without going nuclear on Barack Obama. (Explaining why that is the case is not the focus of this essay). Technically, I would be okay with Clinton continuing her campaign in the same tenor that Mike Huckebee extended his campaign…basically positive, and without an effort to destroy McCain’s general election electability. But, let’s be realistic…Clinton has not and will not campaign that way. And, if she did, it would not work.
Once we’re clear that I am asking Clinton to suspend her campaign, it becomes clear why her supporters would not be as alienated as Obama’s supporters would be by a brokered convention that went their opponent’s way.
But let’s take it slow. Clinton has committed supporters, just as Obama has committed supporters. Those supporters come in all genders, races, religions, and generations. But, in their post, the reader asked about ‘white women, seniors, [and] centrist democrats’. I’ll set seniors aside, as they have no obvious ideological, racial, or gender commitment to either candidate. Many women, or white women if we want to narrow it, will be greatly disappointed if Hillary Clinton is not the nominee. But, truth be told, they should already be disappointed by the failure of her campaign. I’ve noticed some rather serious strains of sexism in the media coverage of Clinton’s campaign, but very little is coming out of the Obama campaign. Yes, the perceptive eye may identify some slights here and there, but there is no meta-narrative in which Obama only won by running down women, or saying women are unfit for the presidency. With exceptions for some of Hillary’s most committed female supporters, I just don’t see much lingering resentment towards Obama about how Clinton’s gender was treated in the campaign.
As for so-called moderate or centrist Democrats, I see very little relevance outside of the actual corridors of power, where an Obama victory is a defeat for the Democratic Leadership Council, the Third Way, and the New Democrats. Obama has so successfully blurred the ideological distinctions in this race that his bigger problem has been convincing progressives that he isn’t just another DLC-style Democrat. We can argue about the truth of the matter but, again, that is not the focus of this essay. In reality, Obama has succeeded by appealing to the left-wing (Kennedy, Dodd, Feingold, Leahy) and the right-wing (Dorgan, Conrad, Tim Johnson, Ben Nelson, Claire McCaskill), while Clinton has picked up the broad center of the party. Obama shows tremendous strengths in the purple to red states as shown by both the primary/caucus results and the SurveyUSA 50-state matchup polls. Moderate to centrist Democrats have shown a lot of support for Obama. Consider the case of Nevada, where he won the delegate count (while losing the popular vote) by carrying the Republican areas of the state. My point? I see no evidence that there is a bloc of centrist Democrats that will be alienated by Obama winning the nomination.
We need to remember that Clinton cannot win without going all the way to the convention and then convincing the vast majority of superdelegates to reject Obama. No one in their right mind thinks Obama will, or should, drop out and endorse Clinton. This is not an equal argument, where we consider the merits of each candidate conceding. This is a question of whether Clinton will decide to launch a campaign designed to destroy Obama’s electability in the eyes of the superdelegates or not. The question then becomes: if Clinton wins, what kind of party will she have left to support her? On the other hand, if she her were to decide that such a victory is not worth having (and that the odds of success are so poor as to not merit it, in any case), she could concede and endorse. Doing so in a gracious manner would eliminate much of the resentment and disappointment in her supporters.
Let’s say Clinton were to do this after losing the Mississippi primary on Monday. She could come out and say that the odds are too long to justify a seven-week campaign for Pennsylvania, where even a victory would do little to help her prospects at the convention. She could congratulate Obama on a smart and well-fought campaign and say that his campaign is the best proof of his fitness for office.
Eight months from now, when people vote for the new president, I don’t think there will be much lingering resentment and alienation from Clinton’s supporters. If Obama were to nominate a woman like Governor Kathleen Sebelius to be his running mate, I imagine there would be almost no resentment at all.
But, if Clinton insists on waging an all-out war on Barack Obama and convinces the superdelegates that she has so damaged Obama that he can no longer be elected president, and then wins a brokered convention in late August? Well…there is simply no way that she can put the party back together again in September and October.
That’s my sincere answer to the question. Personally, I don’t want to have any Democrats feeling alienated. But there is no equivalency between the kind of alienation that Obama supporters would feel and Clinton supporters.
One way leads to unity…the other to catastrophe.
With oranginess.
I didn’t expect to get all that attention! Yikes.
Oh please. Women are not fungible.
Kathleen Sebelius isn’t a substitute for Hillary Clinton and in fact Obama would make a HUGE mistake with women if he were to even hint that he thought so. I will go so far as to predict the opposite of you — if Obama picks a woman as a VP candidate without a really good argument on her merits as to why she could be president on day one – there will be a huge backlash against him by women.
It would indeed be evidence of sexist thought on his part.
I sincerely doubt it. I don’t think it would be interpreted as some kind of commodity trade.
Are you kidding me? It absolutely would be seen that way by the women who have come out specifically to support Hillary.
you can give me any subset of people to justify anything, but it’s not a significant or election-swaying consideration.
Many women are convinced that Clinton is their last chance to see a woman president in their lifetime. A vice-president Sebelius would give all but the most infirm some hope again. And that would salve a lot of disappointment.
You are completely wrong on this whole issue.
Yes, perhaps this small subset would be assuaged.
Most women are going to get over the fact that Hillary isn’t the nominee. UNLESS the candidate disses them as a group by insulting them with the idea that putting a woman, any woman, on the ticket is a substitute for Hillary.
I know it’s hard for you to understand, but most of the women who vote for Hillary like Hillary. But they probably would get over having Obama as the candidate unless he insults them. Like this.
If he did this I would seriously wonder at his tone deaf ear.
If Hillary gets the nomination should she just put some black elected official on the ticket and that will assuage the Obama voters? Of course not. It wouldn’t work and worse it would backfire. Same for the situation you posit.
It depends on whether or not the VP is qualified.
Kennedy picked Johnson, Dukakis picked Bentsen, Carter picked Mondale, Johnson picked Humphrey…etc.
The history of picking from the wing of the party you have just defeated is long and justifiable.
Right now we don’t have ideological/regional splits, but gender and race splits. It’s only patronizing if the candidate isn’t worthy on their own merits.
Sebelius endorsed Obama and has been talked about as a VP possibility for over a year. It would be a wise choice, and shouldn’t be seen as some sop, but an effort to show respect and reunite the party.
And it would be seen that way. If he picked a backbencher with no executive experience (a Dan Quayle or Geraldine Ferrero) then, yes, it would be seen as patronizing.
As for Clinton, her problem would be finding a suitable alternative to Obama, but picking Deval Patrick, for example, would help her get the black vote out. But, he’s probably too inexperienced, so the gesture would be less successful and seen as more of a naked affirmative action move. But that is only because of the difference in experience.
We’re just going to have to disagree on this.
I hope to god Obama doesn’t take this advice.
let me get this straight.
are you now disqualifying Sebelius from the veepstakes because of her gender?
yep
that seems unfair to Sebelius (and several other worthy candidates), but if that is how you see the strategery you are free to see it that way.
Of course it’s unfair. But politics isn’t fair.
I want to see Obama win. I think it would be disastrous for him to pick any woman who is not Hillary as his running mate. I don’t think he should pick her either, but he can’t not pick her and then pick another woman.
In the same way that she can’t not pick him and then pick another black person.
It would be seen as a statement that people in the identity category of the principal opponent are fungible. It would be seen as an insult. No matter how qualified that person was.
OK.
I see what you’re saying here, now. I’m not sure i agree but i see your line of thought.
If Obama picked an obviously qualified person that had a way with words I think people would get over the maneuver pretty quickly. It would all depend on if he picked quality.
The problem, Maryb, is that Hillary Clinton has eliminated herself as a Veep for Obama. She has been running a campaign that says that the black man is not competent to be President. She can’t run with him anymore.
Remember? He had only a speech in 2002 but she and John McCain have all that experience. I’d say now she’s got a better chance of being McCain’s VP than Obama’s.
And it’s her choice by running that desperate campaign she ran the last couple of weeks.
In any case, if you are offended by Obama’s Veep choice, so be it.
Her campaign said a black man is not competent to be President? I must have missed that.
The black man.
I presume she would be able to be another black man’s Vice President, if there was another black man who led in the delegate count. If she didn’t say he wasn’t qualified.
Well, I said above that I didn’t think he should pick Hillary as his running mate so I’m not sure where we disagree.
Are you saying that he should pick a woman who is not Hillary so that the Hillary supporters will feel better? If so, I disagree with you.
It’d be seen as an insult to the Clintons, and it take the mantle of representing feminist aspirations away from Hillary. So, yes, it would be insulting. To the Clintons. And to those that really really identify with her and them.
Personally, that makes it all the more delectable to me. But only a tiny percentage of people have that kind of identification with Clinton personally. It wouldn’t be seen as an insult by most people at all.
By November, low information voters will have forgotten a Clinton was ever on the ticket at all.
You are letting your Hillary Hate cloud your judgment.
You actually want to insult Hillary and her supporters? Right. Because that’s the way to get your candidate elected in November. uh huh.
So basically you do want to use Kathleen Sebelius. You don’t think she’s the most qualified person to be VP. You want Obama to pick her to stick it to those damn Hillary supporters. It’s not her – it’s that she’s a woman. Any woman. They are all fungible to you.
Lovely.
wow.
I said none of that.
I personally would relish seeing the Clintons relegated to the Land of Obscuria, but that has nothing to do with why I think he should strongly consider a qualified woman. I think he should because it will help unite the party, even if it pisses a small percentage of people off.
well, that’s how I interpreted this:
I’ll take your word on it that my interpretation was wrong.
I disagree it would help unite the party. We’re back to the beginning. We disagree.
Even if she were very qualified?
I’m having trouble seeing your argument. If the chosen VP running mate were a woman and worth her salt then they could run her on her own merits, instead of always playing the gender card.
As a woman and a feminist myself, I’ve never understood the notion that we have to elect -any- woman to the job for there to be movement toward equality. If the woman ain’t qualified or even if she isn’t the best candidate for the job.. then she shouldn’t get it. Period.
But now it seems to me that your saying it’s Hillary or no woman at all. Did she become the “everywoman” in this election?
At the very least, it seems that there’s a “either or” dichotomy being set up here. Either we elect a woman or we irrevocably piss off women. Or, elect a black man or risk alienating the black vote.
It would probably be much easier, and in the long run smarter, to vote our minds and hearts and then get pragmatic about whoever does win the primary. Neither one of them would be any worse than McCain
I’m thinking of it only as a political matter not as a matter of a woman being qualified. Truthfully I have no idea if Kathleen Sebelius is qualified. I know she gives boring speeches. That’s about it. She may be qualified but why is she more qualified than someone else? I have no idea.
As a political matter, Obama needs the women who voted for Hillary to vote for him. She isn’t everywoman to those women – she’s the exact opposite. She’s herself. They believe she is the best person for the job. They like her. They probably would vote for him, after a post-nomination cooling off period. Most voters do. But I think as a political matter that he risks alienating them if he appears to pick a candidate because she’s a woman. As if picking a woman would appease them because any woman is the same as Hillary. They aren’t out there for any woman. They are voting for Hillary.
In a political campaign you don’t take risks like that with a large voting block.
I don’t think you should discount how many women wouldn’t want McCain picking Supreme Court justices. I know that will be my prime motivator if Clinton is the nominee.
I hope that’s everyone’s motivator. But it won’t be.
I’m a single issue voter in November. That’s why I want to maximize the vote for the Dem candidate from all quarters. To make sure he/she wins.
One of my friends at work told me that he wouldn’t be able to vote for Hillary in the general. I told him, here, take this into the booth with you.
He changed his mind and grudgingly said he’d vote for Hillary if it came to it. But that he would print that out and take it with him to make sure he stayed on the straight and narrow.
I’m with Anonymous in rikyrah’s Jack and Jill Politics post on this one.
I’ve never bought the Supreme Court as a reason to vote for Clinton. It’s not like they’re fair and not conservative now. No matter who she picks, and I guarantee it won’t be a liberal jurist, we’ll still have a conservative Supreme Court. So what then? We get to play Degrees of Conservatism? Fun.
I think we are just going to have to disagree on this one then. The court does have a conservative lean right now, but the next justices in line for retirement / death are part of the more liberal wing and are all that is keeping it even semi-sane. There is no way that Hillary would appoint anyone even close to as conservative as John McCain would.
Of course none of this is likely to matter anyway, since Hillary isn’t going to be the Democratic nominee.
I don’t see the so-called liberal judges being that liberal or that useful. For the past 14 years, I’ve been utterly disgusted by the verdicts handed down by the Supreme Court, watching was few real rights and recourses I had dwindle down to almost nothing. That was with so-called liberal judges. I don’t pretend that the legal system I would navigate would be the same as the one you would have to navigate. I look at it with that jaundiced eye.
I told you I’m a cynic.
I don’t believe that we currently have any truly “liberal” justices on the SC. But, The Alitos and the Roberts are so far right that the center looks left.
McCain will continue that trend.
Well, I couldn’t disagree more on any issue.
But since it becomes academic if Obama gets the nomination there’s no point in going into all the reasons. If, however, Hillary gets the nomination you’re gonna get tired of me talking about it. 🙂
You’re probably right.
IN any case i couldn’t see him picking any other woman besides Clinton anyway. It would be too much like a slap in Hillary’s face.
What if Obama chose Janet Napolitano, Gov. of Arizona, for VP? She would bring clout in southwestern states and would complete a historic ticket.
Personally, I’d like to see VA Senator Jim Webb as a running mate for Obama. His style contrasts nicely with Obama. He wouldn’t mind mixing it up with the Republicans and he’d bring a nice number of electoral votes with VA, a swing state.
The woman who first shares the WH had better not deliver to her gender what Alberto Gonzales delivered to the people of his heritage.
Obama’s choice of a VP, woman or not, will receive cudos and support the minute they deliver good govt. at that juncture no one will whisper they miss HC
I agree if it’s painted as wanting a woman on the ticket.
But since the Democrats themselves picked Sebelius to respond to the President’s state of the union, they must think she has some special qualifications. If she IS qualified, I certainly wouldn’t advocate against it.
What really bothers me is the same thing I hear over and over from Hillary supporters:
I’m always slow to respond to this, because the mind trips when confronted with such idiocy. We have a TON of strong women in this party who would all make fine presidents someday. If Obama wins and gets two terms, and then the Republicans take the presidency for two terms – that’s only 16 years out. There are a lot of women in their forties now who would be fantastic in 16 years.
We’ll have a woman president when the right woman comes onto the scene. Hillary has never been the right woman. She’s a throwback to a past many of us do not wish to return to.
Of course it will be painted as ‘the woman’ on the ticket – by the Republicans if by nobody else.
At this point Hillary supporters are attached to her. To make a choice of VP that is obviously supposed to be a Hillary substitute is going to do nothing more than remind them that it isn’t Hillary. It doesn’t heal wounds – it re-opens them.
It would be like saying that you aren’t worried about true blue Edwards supporters being upset that their candidate didn’t win. And one thing that will make them less upset is that you are going to pick a southern white man as your VP. Well, they might not have been upset until it became clear that you were dissing their candidate by assuming that one southern white man was as good as another.
you are vastly overstating the Hillary-specific attraction of her female vote.
I think this is part of the problem – a misunderstanding of how much some people really passionately support Hillary. My Latino friends (especially the females) are head over heels for Hillary. It’s not ONLY that she’s a woman…
yes, I said that she has devoted supporters. So did Dean.
boo, explain that one to me. regardless of the BHO/HRC wars, that one rubs me the wrong way. why is a comparison to Dean a “bad thing?”
Agree. But maybe he meant that passionate supporters aren’t enough?
Booman, please explain.
it’s not a bad thing.
Who did Dean’s supporters vote for in the general? How many of them didn’t vote because they were still mad about losing the primary?
Just because Clinton has passionate supporters that really like her personally, does not translate into Maryb’s hypothesis that they will sit home if Obama selects a female running mate. On balance, most Clinton supporters would see that as a good thing.
Lots of Dems have passionately supported a candidate and then move on to vote for the eventual nominee.
I think most Dems will vote for the eventual nominee unless that nominee is seen as winning the nomination in an illegitimate way.
It doesn’t do to diss them because they originally supported someone else. Most of us have supported someone else in some election.
The problem is the fear that Hillary will win the nomination by destroying another Democrat and that way of winning would be seen as illegitimate. It’s one thing to run a hard campaign and make the other candidate show his or her mettle. It’s another to destroy them by helping the Republican candidate who will run against them in the fall.
I haven’t yet decided if Hillary really would do that. But her McCain comments are not a good sign.
Right, that’s exactly the problem here. The “Hillary wins, Obama loses” and “Obama wins, Hillary loses” scenarios aren’t symmetric. This entire discussion is predicated on the idea that the only way Hillary can win is by going extremely negative on Obama. Right now, Obama’s more electable by a hair (head to head polls against McCain). And if they continue the worst-case-for-Obama pattern of 50/50 delegate splits like March 4th, he wins handily.
In other words, if Obama wins, he’ll have done so through the same largely clean, positive campaigning he’s used thus far. He’ll hopefully resist the pressure to go negative, and stick to “fair game” attacks and defensive measures. This will alienate a minimal amount of Hillary’s base (basically, the hard-core who believe that Obama was using sexist attacks from day one) and nominating a qualified woman could be an excellent way of patching up Obama’s relations with the remainder. The Obama campaign would, of course, have access to the polling and demographic data that would let them actually make this decision.
If Clinton wins, she’ll presumably have to do so by going all-out on Obama, and unloading smears, lies, and deceit. This will alienate large chunks of Obama’s base, since Democrats are supposed to be above that kind of Rovian slime. We’re not just talking the hardcore, we’re talking all the people he drew in with talk of change and a new type of politics.
Now, if Clinton can manage to win without going hard-core negative and demonstrate an adoption of the same new type politics, it’s possible that she wouldn’t alienate Obama’s base. But I think that’s highly unlikely. Her only win condition seems to be lies (like the NAFTA smear), racism, and fear.
Great post.
Maryb, I’m not sure where you live, but here in California we have two female Senators: Barbara Boxer, who I’ve supported since the mid-80s when she entered Congress, and Dianne Feinstein, whom I’ve opposed since she ran for Mayor in SF after Moscone was assassinated. My representative was Tom Lantos and everyone I know wants to see Jackie Speier replace him.
I guess I’m saying that women in office aren’t any kind of novelty out here.
And the gender of a politician guarantees nothing. So what’s the great attraction to H. Clinton? She’s a centrist politician who didn’t stand up against the war. I’d much rather see a Boxer in the White House than her. But I’d lean to Clinton over Feinstein.
There is nothing magical about having a woman as President, or a black man for that matter. I hear weird icon-worshipping and a lot of anger against Obama for standing in Clinton’s way. Clinton can’t win the nomination now. Obama’s got the pledged delegates and it is my belief that most Party leaders now want Clinton to concede to avoid wrecking the Party.
I’ve always wanted a progressive in the White House before I die.
I agree 100,000% It would be an insult to us women.
You select a VP on merit, not gender. You may as well ask Obama to select Hillary.
Actually, most VPs are chosen for how many votes they can deliver to the ticket. With the exception of Cheney, who actually was President while Junior was choking on pretzels, most Vice Presidents cut ribbons until the day the President doesn’t come back from the parade.
Myself, I’d like to see Edwards on the ticket, myself, although I don’t know if he could help dent the South for Obama.
Cheney chose himself, so he doesn’t really count in this math anyhow.
Let’s flip it. What if Hillary had a black vp, other than Obama? How many white supporters would desert her?
Excellent response.
This isn’t a 50/50 game. Obama is ahead, and Clinton is behind, and can never get ahead legitimately. Her only hope is to get ahead by breaking a few party rules, and anyone who supports that should not be in the Democratic party. Cheating and backstabbing is for Republicans, not Democrats.
I’m sorry Lisa, but this is just not factually accurate:
Her only hope is in convincing superdelegates in some manner that they need to cast their vote for her. There need be nothing illegal or rule-breaking about it (though obviously at this point, it would be extremely suspicious if it happened).
That’s a good point.
She can convince them by (i) going on a winning streak from now until the end – she won’t have the delegates but she’ll have momentum and (ii) convincing them that he can’t stand up to McCain because he can’t stand up to her.
That’s how she wins. And it is possible to do that without ripping the party apart. After the last 8 years Democrats anticipate that the Republican candidate will throw the kitchen sink at our candidates. In fact they’ll throw the sink, the refrigerator, the dishwasher, the oven and everything in all the cabinets. She needs to throw just enough and he needs to respond inadequately.
That’s how she wins. By him losing. So imo it’s up to him to win, not up to her to drop out.
Exactly. That’s her path to the nomination, and I have to think her camp knows it. They may be a lot of things, but one thing they are not are idiots.
I find it marginally amusing that so many people who are pissed off at Hillary’s ‘sense of entitlement’ towards the nomination now pretty much feel that Obama is entitled to it based on results so far.
He’s entitled to it if he wins the most pledged delegates, unless their is a compelling reason to believe he is unelectable. He’s already won the the most pledged delegates under any reasonable set of assumptions.
Right. I believe that is essentially the scenario we’re talking about here, that Mary briefly mentioned in her response to my original comment.
If he wilts under Hillary’s attacks and shows he’s unable or unwilling to respond to them, then Hillary can convince the superdelegates that it is their responsibility to vote for her instead of him, so that we can win the general. Those superdelegates will have pertinent information about Obama’s electoral chances that the pledged delegates must essentially ignore, because their constituents voted in the past.
I love Obama, but I do NOT want to see another Kerry-esque response to the Republican attack machine.
Truer words were not said.
And if he loses because he suddenly becomes John Kerry I don’t think it will alienate his supporters. They will be disheartened but not alienated.
Nah, Obama has shown that he can respond, and in language that people can understand. Kerry could not manage this.
Nobody wants that, but I don’t need Clinton running down our nominee for the next seven (or more) weeks just to see if he will wilt under the pressure. That’s ridiculous.
He needs to show he can respond. You might think seven weeks of attacks are ridiculous but I think sending a candidate into the general unsure of his ability to effectively respond to the shit that they’ll hit him with is even more ridiculous.
I agree. And that applies to Hillary too. Obama should start slinging back. He can start with her amazing one time and never try again commodity luck. He can move on to Vince Foster, just warming up for her latest Zell Miller imitation.
SHe’s running for pres and she really wants it. As long as she abides by the rules we can blame the rules but it’s not sensible to blame the candidate.
I’m NOT a fan of the super delegate idea, myself. I think it’s carp. I mean.. i really hate the idea. But, they are within the rules and if they can be legally persuaded then she has a right to do so.
No, he is entitled to win if he gets enough delegates (pledged or not) to clinch the nomination.
He probably will get enough superdelegates to put him in that position if he has the most pledged delegates and he hasn’t given the superdelegates reason to doubt that he will the best candidate in November. I have no reason to believe that he will fail in this. But it’s possible.
It’s almost what you said, but not quite. He will win unless there is a compelling reason to believe he is unelectable. But under the rules of the convention he isn’t entitled to win. .
Neither candidate will get to 2025 delegates after the primary contests. The next phase will then have to be to campaign for the super-delegates. The bottom line is who is going to get to 2025 delegates!
Sure, Obama may have a lead after the primary voting phase but that does not mean every super-delegate is obligated to vote for him at the convention. Boxer, says she will vote for Clinton since voters in CA went for Clinton. That is a perfectly legitimate position. What if all super-delegates vote on that basis? The Senators vote based on popular vote totals in the state, Congressmen on the basis of the vote in their district, etc. What would be the outcome?
Obama had a chance to knock Clinton out last Tue. He blew her away in spending but failed. He has not been able to build a winning coalition yet. But neither has she. The white blue collar and women and the Hispanics are not gravitating to Obama. The youth, African-Anericans and affluent are not moving towards her. As long as this is the situation its effectively a balanced race. Clinton has one advantage however the primary phase will have her coming out of it with perceived momentum as she will likely win PA, IN and Puerto Rico.
Ted Kennedy & John Kerry are casting their lot with Obama as super-delgates despite the voters in the state of MA giving Clinton victory in the primary. Obama cannot expect super-delegates in states that he won to support him either.
This is the way the cookie crumbles. We may have no choice but to follow it to its conclusion. Maybe at the end Obama and Clinton are sufficiently damaged that McCain wins. Like what happened in the Governors race in CA in 2006. But maybe it also happens that Dem voters are satisfied with result of their nomination since it was legitimate and rally behind their nominee in Nov. The race is not going to end anytime soon. Both candidates have enough money and can claim support of at least half the voters.
Go read Maryscott’s math diary. After Obama’s series of blow-out wins, Hillary and Obama have been splitting the remaining delegates 50/50. If this pattern continues, and extends to the superdelegates, Obama wins with 2158 votes. Clinton needs to get the vast majority of either the superdelegates or the remaining primary delegates.
And that’s assuming the Michigan and Florda delegations get seated as they are now. If those elections get re-run and Obama, you know, is actually on the ballot, his position improves even farther.
Summary: if things continue as they have been, Obama wins. Clinton needs to massively change the game to have any chance of winning, and that means pulling out all the stops and turning to Karl Rove’s playbook… And if she does that, she loses in November.
Andrew Sullivan has some good advice for Obama:
Wow – that’s all really great advice.
I’ve written that I see the DNC working behind the scenes to end Hillary’s campaign. They know she can’t win the nomination. I suspect that most superdelegates now support Obama because he’s got longer coattails; and any artificial removal of him as nominee when he’s got the pledged delegates would destroy the party. I lived through Chicago 1968. Belive me, you don’t want that.
Clinton can’t win without a fight, a very dirty fight that involves trying to destroy the presumptive leader, and the more she fights the more superdelegates she pushes away and the less chance she’ll ever again be welcomed as a Presidential candidate.
I don’t think she can carry if off.
But’s that how she’d do it if she were going to do it.
Personally I think the superdelegates are just waiting to jump in and endorse him and end it. But he has to set up the opportunity for them. If he had won the Texas primary …
But he IS winning the Texas primary, if you don’t limit it to the primary PORTION of the race. If you combine the delegates from the primary portion and the caucus portion, Obama is the winner in Texas.
Unfortunately, the caucus portion didn’t get the headlines, meaning that so-called “momentum” was lost.
Uggggggh!
What? Obama won Texas. Not winning the primaries is irrelevant; that’s like saying Hillary won Iowa because she won some fraction of the caucuses there.
And let me say, I’d agree with you in theory, but in theory only, and in the reality of Hillary Clinton and all that her family is, they’re going to break every rule they have to in their effort to win the nomination.
And that’s exactly why she won’t get it.
Exactly. If the Texas popular vote had gone to Obama the movement to endorse him would have been a stampede. Clinton’s win in Ohio and Texas only delays the inevitable. Every time you hear a Dem Representative or Senator or Party official say, “We want this to get resolved before the convention,” they are saying they want Hillary to concede.
GREAT POST Booman…as usual!
“Many women, or white women if we want to narrow it, will be greatly disappointed if Hillary Clinton is not the nominee.”
Many men, or black men if want to narrow it, will be greatly disappointed if Barack Obama is not the nominee.
Thanks for your sincerity, Booman, and for playing the gender card.
Why is this not as heinous as playing the race card, or the old fart Baby Boomers card?
Get a grip.
you’re right, but how am I playing a card? If anything, I am only taking the questioner’s point at face value.
Here’s how. When HC won in NH someone on this very site proclaimed that it was because there was a warm spell and the old fart Baby Boomers were not afraid to come out and vote.
But when Obama won in NC Bill Clinton was absolutely pilloried for playing the “race card” when he mentioned that Jesse Jackson had won that state in whatever year it was, I forget. (I voted for JJ, BTW)
Get it?
Oops I forgot to add…
Ageism + works against HC = good thing
Sexism + works against HC = good thing
Racism + works against BO = bad thing
Talk about fuzzy math!
I want us to win just as much as you do, Booman, just wondering, who is “us”?
go back through everything I have ever written about Clinton or her base of support and show me where I have ever said anything negative about her gender, her age, or the gender, age, education level, or anything else of her base of support.
Show me one example.
And it’s SC, not NC.
Oh yes and I forgot to add how we all bitch and complain about the tragic demise of the Fairness Doctrine during the Reagan administration, and yet where are we modeling the Fairness Doctrine in the left wing blogosphere in this very presidential primary?
Where oh where?
I am not going to back through all of your comments.
You go back through all of your comments, including this diary, and show me how your advocacy of the Fairness Doctrine is implemented here. Assuming you advocate the Fairness Doctrine, which I assume you do.
do you mean that I should have someone posting on the front-page that is for Clinton?
I’m not sure what you mean.
mythmother, Hillary cannot win the pledged delegates. Why should anyone give her the nomination over the person who won it?
No one’s counted all the ballots in New Hampshire.
I’m going to defend Booman on this simply because I’ve been making A LOT of calls to people on Obama’s half, and I’ve never once heard anyone tell me they’d vote for (or against) Obama because he’s black (although one man told me Obama “wasn’t black”), BUT – I’ve had nearly every woman I call who is a Clinton give that as her first reason for choosing Clinton.
So I think we have to acknowledge there really is a gender issue with a number of her supporters. That’s fair, because it’s provable, and not just an assumption.
I think it’s ludicrous to pretend that lots of women are voting for Clinton because she’s female while blacks are voting for Obama but not because he’s black. Both things play into people’s decision but it may not be everything. On top of that, while men have been voting their identity for centuries.
OT, just heard on local NPR one the top TX Dems stating that Obama did so well in caucus voting that he will wind up winning TX, picking up a net 5 delegates.
Yes!!! That’s exciting.
I published a piece on that at Robert Parry’s ConsortiumNews.com site – he gets tens of thousands of readers a day, and many of them are in the media because he’s a former Newsweek reporter who broke the Iran-Contra story when at the AP prior.
Yippee!! The word is getting out!
I also called the Texas Democratic Party this morning and urged them to release a public statement saying Obama was ahead in the overall delegate count. Now I hear they did that! I can’t help wonder if my call let them know people were watching and paying attention..!
Sigh. There are many, many women who do not support Hillary Clinton. The percentage of women breaking for Clinton in Texas was, I believe in the mid to upper 50% region. African-Americans for Obama in Texas was in the 80 to 90% range. Is that higher percentage because African-American’s are more excited about having an African-American than (white) women would be about having a woman President?
No, I don’t believe so. I think it has to do with who the candidates are. I would love to see a woman President, but the first woman President damn well better be a good one. And that most certainly rules out Hillary Clinton. She’s not trustworthy, nor is she progressive.
Obama would be the better President, and that would be true even if he were green, purple or polka-dot.
Wow. 86 comments, most all about gender and orbiting around a single line in Boo original post.
Gender and race are factors in voter choices. Shouldn’t be, but it is a sad fact. NPR interviewed an elderly Ohio woman this week who said she voted to Hillary because she wanted to see a woman in the White House before she died. And of course there are people who will not vote for her because she is a woman or Obama because he is black. They just don’t speak so publicly.
When a pol calculates how to win a majority they have to pay attention to all the factors that influence voter choices. Some, like Obama seem to play to people’s better qualities, others like the Clintons and Bushes not so much.
But the central point of the original question and answer was about the effect on the party if this campaign continues as it is likely to.
If Clinton continues her scorched earth policy in hope of getting the nomination she will have demonstrated to independents, Republicans, progressive and many moderate Democrats (i.e., most of America) that the party can’t govern themselves much less the nation or lead the world. Re-run elections until you get the right result? Insult each other until the last fair-minded person has tuned out? Please.
And if Democrats can’t win the White House after the last eight years they may never again.
Worse, it will be because of the narcissistic, self absorbed, blind ambition of the Clintons. All she would have to do is what all the other candidates have done and graciously bow out.
— Her reputation would be intact, even improved
— her negatives lowered,
— her supporters, while disappointed, please with her strong showing and more hopeful about the possibility of her (or for some any woman) eventually gaining the White House,
— Without damaging Obama, her supporters would be much more likely to move to him rather than McCain or not vote at all, and
— she would have a powerful position of influence (just not president) in a much more powerful party.
Thank you for one of the best summaries of the nomination situation as it stands today. Honest without being acrimonious.
Thank you. 🙂
“Some, like Obama seem to play to people’s better qualities, others like the Clintons and Bushes not so much.”
Really? Is that equating Bill & Hill with Dubya and Poppy? or Jeb or what? What is this supposed to refer to?
“If Clinton continues her scorched earth policy…”
Scorched earth? You mean the phone ad and SNL appearance and pointing out that she and McCain have more experience than Obama?
“…narcissistic, self absorbed, blind ambition of the Clintons…”
This after you just complained about insults and suggest a gracious, pleasing, less negative approach. Really?
Yeesh…
No it doesn’t refer to her SNL appearance or experience talking points. I’m referring to pursuing a strategy that may get get her the nomination, but will also likely do damage to the party, perpetuate Republican rule, and not provide the help and relief to Americans she says is so important.
If you haven’t noticed the Clintons have been consumed with making the White House most of their lives. Even their strongest supporters will agree and consider it an asset. But their approach is also designed to keep them at the top of the Democratic party (and others out) even at the expense of the party. Think CEO making sure he keeps his position, perks, options and buyouts no matter how much the company tanks.
Frankly the difference between their positions is small enough that if for her it is so important to improve healthcare and the future for all Americans, she should do everything possible to ensure that the Democratic party actually gets a chance to do it.
Instead, it looks far more as if she simply can’t stand the notion of someone else getting to answer the phone at 3 am.
And yes, I am equating the Clinton’s tactics to Bushes of all ages (though not necessarily Jeb, but he hasn’t been harshly challenged either). The differences in their tactics is thin.
And I take little pain in talking smack about them because their actions have convinced me that they a so focused on themselves that they care little about me or what is said about them.
Umm.. If you can’t deal with de-PC-ification stop now.
If we’re going to talk/think about gender and race constantly in regards to who deserves the nomination more, why not think about it this way:
Since Hillary’s ‘experience’ apparently comes from ALREADY HAVING BEEN IN THE WHITE HOUSE, haven’t women have HAD their turn already? Which is it, Hill?
Then again BHO is half-white, so he’s had half a turn.
We should have nominated Kucinich, so the gelflings could have their turn.
I’m going to catch hell for saying this, but I’m going to say it anyway.
I will not vote for Hillary Clinton if she becomes the Democratic nominee for any reason other than accumulating the majority of the popular vote in the primaries. The same applies to Barack Obama, though this is apparently not going to be a problem for him.
In the past two elections, we have had a president first appointed by the Supreme Court, and then elected by a narrow proportion of the popular vote with the very strong appearance of rigged elections in certain states. The first order of business for me in this election is to RESTORE DEMOCRACY. This cannot be achieved by voting for a candidate who became the party nominee through undemocratic means. Period.
It furthermore means that if Hillary Clinton pulls a palace coup at the convention, I will be obliged to vote for the only small-d democratic candidate running for president, and that will be John McCain.
It will not be the first time I have voted for a Republican running against a Clinton. I voted for Bob Dole when Bill Clinton ran for reelection, and I have no regrets about having done so. Had Dole been elected and served two terms, it is highly unlikely that George W. Bush would have been his successor. Moreover, had Bill Clinton not been elected in the first place, it’s unlikely that the Republicans would have been successful as they were in taking over the government — and it’s not just Bill Clinton’s penis that got us there, it was also Hillary Clinton’s incompetently managed health care reform commission.
At the end of the day, there is no good reason to elect Hillary Clinton. She is a notoriously dishonest political triangulator, has less experience than her competitor — and I’m sorry, but being married to a president no more qualifies one to be president than being married to a heart surgeon qualifies one to perform heart surgery, nor does being a do-nothing legislator since 2001 trump being an active legislator since 1997 — and, for the very same reason, serves as a hideously poor role model from a genuinely feminist point of view, unless marrying your way into power and tolerating a famously philandering husband to the point of international humiliation is now a feminist ideal. I certainly wouldn’t want my daughter to think that was a path worth emulating. Contrast with Kathleen Sebelius, who earned her success. Moreover, Hillary Clinton is a race-baiter with a Bush-like flair for professing innocence over the well-scripted misdeeds of her subordinates, an unrepentant war-enabler, and the instrument of large corporate interests, including the health-care industry. She’s fundamentally not a decent person.
There are basically two groups that currently constitute Hillary Clinton’s support base: entrenched corporate interests, their patsies, and other beneficiaries of the status quo; and a certain subset of feminists who believe that getting a woman in the White House is more important than the qualifications and character of the woman in question, and who do not consider that having a terrible female president do more to prevent competent and honest women from being elected in the future than anything else.
If Hillary Clinton steals the nomination, it will be a sign that the Democratic Party has not yet spent enough time in the wilderness to purge itself of regressive elements. Perhaps four years of McCain will be the necessary purgative.
Won’t catch hell from me. 🙂
That was beautiful
Prior to the OH and TX primaries the Clinton’s decided to ignore the advice of party elders against knee-capping Obama. The Clinton campaign had tried positive campaigning. It didn’t work.
While the OH and TX primaries were more of a psychological boost than a turn around in the delegate-count, the message that the Clinton campaign took away was: more of the same is the only hope.
Even more petty name-calling, derisive personal attacks and base-alienating insinuations won’t leave Hillary on top of the delegate county. Only snatching the nomination from the candidate with the most democratically selected delegates will make Hillary the nominee.
What kind of party will be left for the general election? The circular firing squad convention will leave essential independent voters with a sour taste. Over half the Dems who voted or caucused for Obama will be disillusioned and bitter. Worst of all, Hillary will have framed her campaign on Grandpa McCain’s strong suit– “security.”
Face it. The Clintons have want the nomination more than they want a strong and successful Democratic Party. Watching the Clintons’ behavior in the last week, it’s apparent that the Clintons would rather see John McCain beat a crippled Obama and give Hillary another chance in four years than Obama settle into the White House for two terms.