The effort to turn Iran into the latest incarnation of Nazi Germany is deeply dishonest and depressing. For some people, anyone that makes Israel uncomfortable is a de facto Nazi. Iran has not fought a war of territorial expansion in centuries. I can’t even think of an example in the last 500 years. What’s more, Israel is armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons. Iran has no nuclear weapons. And, if they did have them, they’d be no more likely to explode one in Israel than Pakistan is today. If Pakistan were to attack Israel with nuclear weapons there would be no need for America to ‘obliterate’ them because Israel would do the job first.
Iran has its faults. So did the Soviet Union. But the Soviet Union never used its nuclear weapons. And, unlike the Soviet Union, Iran has no territorial ambitions. Their support of Hezbollah is as much about strengthening their Shi’a brethren in Lebanon’s internecine political fights as it is about harassing Israelis. And their alleged support of Hamas is about having street cred as one of the few Islamic countries willing to continue the fight post Camp David.
I don’t expect Israelis to turn a passive eye to activities that threaten and sometimes kill their citizens. Israelis are rightly angered by both Iran’s actions and their irresponsible rhetoric. But Iran poses a low-level threat, not an existential one. The Iranians are not suicidal.
Moreover, it pays to remember that even Nixon and Kissinger met repeatedly with our communist adversaries in China, North Vietnam, and the Soviet Union. They talked to the Soviet ambassador almost daily. And that is really what this debate is about. Do we talk to our enemies or do we just try to kill them?
When President Bush goes before the Knesset and compares Democrats to Nazi appeasers, he’s crossing a line. And for Joe Lieberman to issue this statement is just appalling.
WASHINGTON, D.C. – Senator Joseph Lieberman (ID-CT) issued the following statement in response to President Bush’s statement to the Israel Knesset this morning:
“President Bush got it exactly right today when he warned about the threat of Iran and its terrorist proxies like Hamas and Hezbollah. It is imperative that we reject the flawed and naïve thinking that denies or dismisses the words of extremists and terrorists when they shout “Death to America” and “Death to Israel,” and that holds that—if only we were to sit down and negotiate with these killers—they would cease to threaten us. It is critical to our national security that our commander-in-chief is able to distinguish between America’s friends and America’s enemies, and not confuse the two.”
What does Joe want to do? Kill all the Iranians? Kill all the Lebanese? Kill all the Gazans? That kind of exterminationist thinking is a lot closer to NaziThink than Joe would like to admit. But it’s implicit in his logic. And why does Joe Lieberman say that these groups threaten ‘us’? Has Hezbollah attacked America, or attacked Americans in the last twenty years? Has Hamas, ever?
You want to know what has made Israel safer than anything else in its history? The peace treaties that Carter hammered out with Egypt and Clinton hammered out with Jordan. That was accomplished by talking, not fighting. Israel no longer faces any credible threat of land invasion, and they have the last two Democratic presidents to thank for it. Presidents Reagan and Bush encouraged two disastrous invasions of Lebanon. That’s the kind of terrible advice Israel has received from Republican leaders that are supposed to be strong on terrorism. Prior to the 1982 invasion of Lebanon, suicide bombing was almost unheard of in the Islamic world, and Iran’s influence was almost completely contained within their own borders.
Comparing Iran to Nazi Germany is a grave insult to our intelligence. Even our Secretaries of Defense and State recognize the necessity and advisability of engaging Iran. Is it any wonder why the Democrats kicked Joe Lieberman out of the party? I don’t know what it would take to convince him that his policies make Israel less secure. History is so stark and decisive on the matter, that I suppose Lieberman just doesn’t read it.
Zell Lieberman should be stripped.
Lieberman has demonstrated he hates America…loves warring, puts Israel first. He no longer shares our values.
Why wait Senator Reid? Hurry.
Reid could strip him of his seniority on some committees, but he can’t strip him of the Chair of Homeland Security & Government Oversight because the chair was defined by a vote of the full Senate. Right now, it’s not worth the headache of having Lieberman caucus with the GOP and create a 50-50 Senate. But, rest assured, despite whatever Reid says now, there is no way Lieberman will be caucusing with the Democrats next year.
No, I think he’s made his choice and no longer feels like a Democrat within himself. Supporting McCain is simply suggestive of it.
Anyone notice the recent rush to buy up search engines? He who controls the search engines controls all. Google’s co-founder is busy celebrating Israel’s 60th, as it cuts uruknet.info from it’s news search service.
If Lieberman puts Israel first then he should listen to Israeli citzens. Is he afraid that the foreign aid would dry up if peace broke out?
In the United States, the notion of face-to-face talks with Hamas, which the State Department classifies as a terrorist organization, has long been a political third rail. Yet in the Jewish state a growing chorus of security officials, academics and regular Israelis like Tucker have begun calling for negotiations with the Islamists. In a Haaretz-Dialog poll last month, 64 percent of Israelis said they supported direct talks; among those who belong to the country’s dovish Labor Party, 72 percent favor negotiations. Yet even among those surveyed from the hawkish Likud Party, almost half–48 percent–said they favor a face-to-face dialogue.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/119881
I’m sick of these pols being terrified to tell the truth and bowing to the crackpots here.
I also want you folks to look up the MEK. The US is using them to attack Iran.
We have no right to talk about terrorism after everything the US has done.
packages…comes back to the states as military contracts. Lots of jobs (military contracts) for struggling states. Buys a lot of loyalty.
Good on Biden:
posted that Robert Gates quote elsewhere.
But imho that speech was George’s atonement. Funny use of the word appeasement:
As The Guardian UK reminds of grandfather Prescott, the Nazi enabler…and not tin foil either…all documents from US National Archives. Grandfather enabled and profited …
Somebody with some standing in the American foreign policy establishment needed to say this. I’m very impressed that it was (not too surprisingly) Biden. Gates has even said we have to sit down and talk with these people. It’s just common sense.
It’s also about drawing a line in the sand and choosing sides. Joe Lieberman is not now, certainly, but never was a Democrat. He is, idelogically speaking a Republican. He may be a moderate on domestic social issues, but this is beyond-the-fringe lunacy. He’s every bit a neo-con as Kristol — and every bit as dangerously nuts. Bush is demonstrably crazy, and Lieberman applauds. Bush, I’m convinced, is literally deranged. I don’t mean that I simply disagree with him; I think he is a sick man — in control of a lot of nuclear weapons. It’s so repellant. These are very dangerous times. People like Scott Ritter and others are convinced Iran is in the offing. They might be right.
And if we talk with Hamas, it would unify the Palestinian government, thereby, destroying any excuses Israel has for delaying peace negotiations.
I called Arlen Specter’s office and reminded them of Arlen’s 17 trips to Syria.
“Wasn’t he negotiating with our enemies too? Do you think it’s accurate to represent Senator Specter as a Nazi appeaser?”
This is exactly the message all good Democrats should be sending. They should be flipping Bush and Lieberman the bird.
C’mon. Are really going to let them get away with this game again? Bush and Lieberman calling Democrats pussies? Reid? Aren’t you a boxer or something? What’s a guy got to do to get you to get off your pussy ass and hit someone in the face? Jesus. It’s like the Bad News Bears of politics.
This is killing the Democrats. They need to fight back! Pronto! And with overwhelming force. Let’s make this personal and attack Bush–both personally and his policies. Why can’t the Democrats do some political theater? How about they all go golfing together since Bush golfed while the troops died? Why can’t the condemn Bush in the Senate?
They should stop everything to remind America how divisive and unprecedented this call to arms is by a sitting President.
Are they really going to let the sitting President call the opposition party a bunch of pussy appeasers in the fricking Israeli legislature? Really? They’re going to let him get away with that? Going to the middle east and calling Democrats Nazi appeasers?
People are afraid to call them on this game they keep playing on us. Biden was the boldest person I’ve heard from but he doesn’t go far enough.
I fear they’re going to use the MEK to stage something and force Obama into war mode, IF we even have an election.
We can forget all about any positive change in this country until the neocons and warmongers are crushed.
And not everyone has to be a Biden. That’s fine if some in the caucus are tempermentally less tough than Biden. At a minimun, they just shouldn”t undercut Biden and those in the Democratic party that are actually tough enough to fight Bush on this. Next thing you know someone will say something heated and it will be the hotheaded Democrat that will be getting censored on the Senate floor!
The sitting President just went to a foreign country and called the majority of his citizens Hitler appeasers. And Israelis, I need not remind everyone, were the victims of Hilter. It’s disgusting! It’s unacceptable. The President needs to be condemned for this divisive act.
Has Hillary gone out there to take out Biden’s and Obama’s kneecaps yet?
I expected moans or SOMETHNG from Knesset members. There was silence.
Elie Wiesel was sitting there. I wonder what he has to say about this.
Does anyone have any updates? Did Clinton speak up?
Will Bunch has a good op ed on this.
http://www.philly.com/philly/opinion/President_Bush_committed_treason_today.html
Yeah, that Bunch piece is good. He’s right, too.
Sheldon Adelson (who was on the plane to Israel with him and the father of Freedom’s Watch, the group that conflated Iraq and 9/11)!
Neo-cons still running the show, with help from Sheldon Adelson. Beware false flag incidents!
http://www.boomantribune.com/
This could be interesting, crossing the T-s and dotting the I-s:
The Transparent Cabal: The Neoconservative Agenda, War in the Middle East, and the National Interest of Israel (Hardcover)
by Stephen J. Sniegoski (Author), Paul Findley (Foreword), Paul Gottfried (Preface)
http://www.amazon.com/Transparent-Cabal-Neoconservative-National-Interest/dp/1932528172/ref=pd_ys_wl
_all_3
Thank you for this. I think everyone should read this as well
Dwight Eisenhower, when he was running for re-election in 1956 and simultaneously trying to contain growing instability in the Middle East as a result of tensions between Israel and its neighbors, wrote a letter to an adviser as follows:
Of course, nothing in the region would be so difficult to solve except for the underlying cause of the unrest and dissension that exists there — that is, the Arab-Israel quarrel. This quarrel seems to have no limit in either intensity or in scope. Everybody in the Moslem and Jewish worlds is affected by it. It is so intense that the second any action is taken against one Arab state, by an outsider, all the other Arab and Moslem states seem to regard it as a Jewish plot and react violently. All this complicates the situation enormously.
As we began to uncover evidence that something was building up in Israel, we demanded pledges from Ben-Gurion that he would keep the peace. We realized that he might think he could take advantage of this country because of the approaching election and because of the importance that so many politicians in the past have attached to our Jewish vote. I gave strict orders to the State Department that they should inform Israel that we would handle our affairs exactly as though we didn’t have a Jew in America. The welfare and best interests of our own country were to be the sole criteria on which we operated.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/05/13/obama/index.html
Lieberman,in an odd way may be right that Iran threatens “us”.If you define Israel’s interests as peaceful co-existence with its neighbors,there is no threat.
The threat comes from Israel’s self definition of its interests as becoming the regional hegemon in the Middle East.
In reaching this Nirvana, the Israeli Fifth Column in this country has managed to erase the separation of American interests from those of Israel.
Paul Craig Roberts has correctly stated the problem for these hegemons,big and small, as how they are becoming bankrupt even as they delude thmeselves that they are powerful.
Lieberman is execrable, for sure and for certain.
But could you give a source for those interests of Israel? (compare to Cee’s first post, for instance) They sure act interested in dominating a Delaware-sized portion of the Middle East, but “hegemon”?
Cheney, Addington, Rumsfeld, Feith, sure they were dreaming of that kind of hegemony, but even at that time, the Israeli gov’t (which certainly has its own problems) was negotiating with Syria.
An approach that Bush has tried to silence.
The behavior of the Israelis during their Lebanese venture gives us a clue as their hegemonic intent.
First, the disproportionate response when two Israeli soldiers were captured inside Lebanon tells us that the Israelis deal with Arabs only from a position of strength;no negotiations or proportional response is ever considered.That is the essence of hegemonic behavior.
Second, when the Israeli Army’s tanks were blunted in their drive toward the Litani River by the Hezbollah’s use of EFD’s their response was to saturation bomb heavily populated areas of Beirut killing hundred of civilians and leave unexploded anti-personnel weapons which attract the curiosity of children an cause maiming and suffering to innocent children.Another barabaric response from a hegemon.
Third, in their repeated call for “dealing “with Iran, what the Israelis want is the elimination of any possible challenger to their supremacy in the Middle East.Iran poses such a challenge only if the Israelis want to dominate the Persian Gulf either by themselves or as satraps doing the bidding of the US. As it stands, Iran has not posed any threat to Israel,perceived or real.It has no nuclear weapons and is a signatory of the Non Proliferation Treaty while Israel which does possess such weapons has defied calls for signing the treaty.
One does not need refrences or links to deduce the hegemonic aspirations of the Israelis.Their actions show plainly that is the intent.As the old song says “you don’t need a weathervane to see which way the wind is blowing”.
When, oh when, is the US going to leave Iran alone? In 1953, the Americans and the Brits assisted the Shah (Reza Pahlevi) to overthrow the democratically elected government of Mohammed Moseddeq. Seems like the latter wanted to nationalize the oil resources of Iran so that his countrymen would benefit from the petroleum resources rather than oil giants from the US and Britain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kermit_Roosevelt%2C_Jr.
But, after the coup, the giants got their petroleum and the people of Iran got the Shah along with his secret police, the Savak. Their specialty was torture and for twenty-four bloody years they kept control until ousted in 1979 by the forces of the Ayatollah Khomeini. Blowback was not long in coming as the Iranians seized our embassy staff in Teheran and held them for over a year.
Then, in 1980, Iraq invaded Iran and we eventually provided both sides with military assistance even helping Hussein with satellite information and the precursors to biological weapons. The war which went on unto 1988 was very bloody, indeed. Over a million soldiers killed and far more wounded.
In 2001, Bush labeled Iran as an axis of evil and now, apparently, the US is arming dissident groups in Iran with military stuff of all kinds. They occasionally blow up a mosque or two furnishing a new generation of Iranians a reason to hate us.
Does the pathetic Joe Lieberman ever mention any of this background information or is he just confined to an unending stream of propaganda and bombastic cant? I think it’s about time he gets his priorities straight and starts to represent America instead of Israel. On this point, the same goes for Hillary Clinton.
Those soft footsteps, I hear. Is Nemesis drawing near?
Get ready. They are on the warpath again. We will be in open conflict with Iran soon. Some of us have been warning about this for years.
Even though I see it happening I simply can’t believe the media and the Democrats appear to be letting it happen again. There is more resistance this time around but we are seeing the exact same pattern as we saw with Iraq. God have mercy on our souls. Especially the Democrats–for being such reliable suckers–each and every time.
Bush and the gang now see their opening; and it runs through Hillary Clinton. She has provided Bush, Cheney, McCain and the neocons cover to illegally attack Iran. Hillary has helped put in place the groundwork for an attack on Iran. Just last week she talked about obliterating the country. And lo and behold, what is the main line of attack that McCain and the GOP will use against Obama in the election? That he will not be sufficiently martial–that he’s a pussy. Now Bush can drive a wedge through the Democrats. He will get the Hillary people saying that Obama is indeed weak in the general election because a conflict with Iran horizen (which just happens to fall right before an election) and Obama is not acting tough enough to win the election. There will be incredible pressure on Obama to talk tough and give some credibility to a belligerent approach to Iran. With Hillary and other “centrists” like Joe Lieberman supporting belligerence against Iran Obama will be forced to tack in their direction (just as he did this week professing his undying devotion to Israel). Then it will be a slippery slope for him. As soon as he starts getting belligerent with Iran then it will be tough to argue that Bush shouldn’t drop bombs and wage war on the Persian people. It’s a real pickle.
The neocons now see their opportunity. Tom Friedman is on board. Joe Lieberman is on board. Hillary is on board. They may not get everyone they got the first time around but expect to see the same suspects that were tragically wrong on Iraq to also be wrong on Iran. Bush and the gang have finally worn down the press re Iran. At first, the press was a bit more suspicious of the claims Bush made about IEDs in Iraq coming from Iran and other specious claims made against Iran, but now it’s taken as conventional wisdom that Iran is guilty of all sorts of things of which there is no evidence (even the C.I.A. report rebuking the neocons and concluding that Iran was not seeking nuclear arms seems to have faded in our collective memories).
There is a perfect ugly storm headed our way in the next few months that any of us that have been awake the last 8 years will recognize immediately. And I’m afraid the Democrats are once again failing to prepare for that storm. Hillary is actively ripping off some of the shingles on the roof, for instance, by threatening genocide on the Persian people.
We will be dropping bombs on innocent people once again. And there will indeed be a price to pay if we do not step up and fight evil right from the beginning–we must not let the Bush administration start another illegal war in our name.
Both shrub and Lieberman are vile and vulgar and despicable.
If this isn’t treason, I don’t know what is. But I’m supposed to be worried about a goddamned flag pin.
It is all backasswards. Bush and McCain should be accounting for their disasterous foreign policy decisions the last 7 years and how they have emboldened our enemies. Instead, the media and the GOP (with an assist from Dems like Hillary) is acting like it’s Obama that has something to prove on the foreign policy front– as if Obama was proposing some radical new course for America foreign policy. That’s great that the media and Hillary are really concerned about radical new foreign policies but maybe they should first tackle the radical new foreign policy views of the sitting administration. Huh? But this is our press. We equate flag pins with patriotism while ignoring the huge elephant in the room that is Bush’s radical foreign policy.
And isn’t it interesting that Obama is wearing a flag pin again and dutifully singing Israel’s praises as has been requested of him? I don’t neccessarily blame him for not being as tough as I would be in the situation (or as some others would be, like Biden or Kucinich), but this is not a good sign. They got him giving in and agreeing with their underlying point: that Obama has to prove that he really is patriotic and tough. He’s in a weak position now. It will be tough when they demand that he give his ok to attack Iran. They won’t phrase it that way but it will be presented as a test. Is Obama tough? Will he be belligerent against Iran and give Bush the go ahead to attack? This could be a very dangerous tool in the hands of Bush. If Bush sees that an attack could also help him pull an electoral victory out of thin air he may be too tempted to resist. Not only can he do one final act to fulfill his legacy he can also help further his party’s chances.
It’s not like the Republicans have hid their electoral strategy. We knew this was coming. We knew it was going to be flag pins and angry black men and cries of Democrats being pussies. I guess I just thought people like Hillary Clinton and the other centrist Dems would have figured out by now that running around trying to prove you’re not a pussy when someone is calling you a pussy makes you a really, really, big wimp. Especially when the people crying pussy are wimps themselves (they almost all avoided the Vietnam war and are pudgy weak men–except Rumsfeld and maybe a few others). So in sum, you have a weak pudgy coward that talks tough (but is not really tough) and calls you a pussy. If you are not a wimp, you would act appropriately and stand up for yourself and not even give this jerk the decency of a respectful response. But, if you give these scurrilous charges respect, and attempt to address them respectively, in effect, to try to prove to Mr. ChickenHawk that you are not a pussy, then you are indeed a wimp. sorry. You are. You just proved the right-wing coward’s point. You took him seriously that you had something to apologize for. You don’t . Men and women that have the courage of their convictions do not let cowards dictate to them that they must prove their “toughness”.
So here we go again. Round and round. Surprise, suprise. Our Demcorats with experience, Hillary, Reid, Pelosi, Feinstein, Rockefeller, et. al, have not learned their lesson. They will get sucker punched yet again. And while Obama is slightly better than other Democrats in dealing with these games, I don’t know if he can keep his fellow Democrats in line, especially with a large faction that seems eager to do Bush’s electoral dirty work for him.
Obama will have a test of character. Will he stand up against an assault on the Persian people or will he quietly let it happen?
Gee, Dubya’s grandpa talked with the Nazis. Hell, he handled their investments before and during WWII (for Brown Brothers Harriman), and got a nice cash out when the Nazi money-laundering Union Bank of Holland shut down after the war.
Forget get the Little Coward’s National Guard AWOL maneuver during Vietnam. Ask him what Grandpa did during WWII when Nazis were more than metaphors.
And someone should ask Lieberman about Prescott Bush too. You wanna talk Nazi? Let’s talk real Nazis and the scumbags who made their fortunes doing their bidding.
This is just another example of people not being aware of history. If people know about Prescot Bush and his father-in-law, the kid wouldn’t have dared to open his mouth today to talk about the Nazi regime.
The Bush family should have been bankrupted and driven from public life forever.
I’m watching Biden now and he’s mentioning all of the people from the Bush administration who have met with “terrorists.”
No mention of the Bush family Nazi ties. Dammit.
For just once I’d love to hear someone mention this. You know, “President Bush says Democrats are like the people who appeased the Nazis. Bush’s granddad was the Nazis’ stockbroker.” You know, while we’re on the subject of the Bushes and Nazis.
Not word one on television about this.
This is one of those incidents where you can measure the depth of censorship and the control of the media by the reactionaries.
It is only natural for the extremes of both parties to claim the other is angry….because there is never any compromise and the divide is always to great.
This is why our government has been gridlocked for many years now…and stop your knee jerk reaction to place blame because both parties are equally guilty!
I am amused as I read your opinions on what you think a Democrat should stand for today. Kennedy was a fiscal conservative and strong on National Defense and lets remember that Truman dropped the atomic bomb!
Stop swallowing the Co-opted message from each party and start demanding real action from both parties.
War will always be with us not because we are imperialist but for the simple reason that every nation that does not share our united vision of freedom and liberty will do what ever they can to undermine our status as a beacon of light for the rest of the world.
Stop blaming America for our leaders lack of leadership. Stop watching and listening to the news biased slant every hour of every day. Go to the library and read up on the history of your nation and the nations of the world.
Then maybe we can finally start a conversation on how to proceed with the constantly changing world from within and around us.
Persia invaded Afghanistan in the 1850s, the 1830s, Russia (Caucasus) in the 1820s, Turkey in the 1820s, Afghanistan in the 1810s and again 1790s. Note: I only counted those wars that were started by Persia.
Uh yeah. Sorry couldn’t resist when it comes to history so yes, it has a history of invading it’s neighbors…. 150 years ago. And even if it decided to do so again (unlikely!) so fucking what? It’s not like they could get past India and China (an ally!) in the east or Turkey in the West, or Russia (another ally!) in the north. Casting Iran as some sort of expansionist empire is ludicrous and I thank God that we kicked LIEberman out of the party.
China and Russia are not current allies of the United States. They are helping Iran, Syria and other terrorist agents spread chaos where ever they can around the world.
With regard to the Middle East, republican presidents have been profoundly stupid. Their advice and actions have fomented terrorism. It’s Munchausen.