I want to apologize for my earlier post; especially to Martin. As per requests from some people in the community and Martin I took the post off the front page.
In a poor attempt to explain if not defend myself, I do want people to know that I don’t go into these topics lightly. I truly pained over this one because it’s been on my mind for the last 3 months of this primary.
I do want to say that the discussion was one of the most civil and open-minded I have had in a netroots community. I thank you for your contributions to the discussion.
Still, please accept my apologies. I do feel bad for upsetting the balance here.
Update [2008-6-4 16:55:30 by Steven D]: Okay, I’m adding an update to Liza’s story because I now know what I think sparked the controversy. Some long term readers here sent some very angry emails to BooMan complaining in no uncertain terms regarding the use of the B word in Liza’s front page story (and no, I’m not going to identify anyone who sent in an email to him, because that wouldn’t be appropriate. People who email any of the front pagers here should have the right to expect their privacy will be respected). BooMan and Liza discussed the matter via email, and the decision was reached to withdraw the story at BooMan’s suggestion based on his policy during the primary season regarding the non-use of gender specific criticisms of Hillary Clinton, which he admitted he hadn’t communicated to Liza, and for which he took responsibility for not informing her. Liza made the decision to post her apology to the front page for any offense she caused to the people who were offended.
I would hope from here on out we can all put this to bed, please. I think everyone acted above board and we responded in accordance with past policies here at the frog pond. Liza certainly shouldn’t be blamed for a failure by those of us (and I include myself in this category) who failed to inform Liza of this specific policy BooMan had implemented to keep the level of sexism directed toward Senator Clinton at a minimum.
So, on behalf of Booman and myself, I apologize for failing Liza, and for causing anyone any undue distress as a result of that failure. I know many people see this as a tempest in a teapot, but I think those who were offended have a right to expect us to live up to the policies and rules that have been set for posting at this blog. I certainly don’t wish to dismiss their level of hurt or anger about this, just as I wouldn’t want anyone to dismiss my anger over comments I’ve found offensive in the past at various places around the blogosphere.
Update [2008-6-4 19:54:8 by liza]: : Hi peeps! I just got back from picking up the kids from school and then doing some mega shopping of food that even impressed my kids. We were down to the last of the twigs and berries 🙂
As I am writing this I have to warn you I haven’t read the whole thread of comments but please, just know I’m cool with the request. If you’d like to continue the conversation you can always continue it at my blog. That’s why I have no issue with the request –I have my own blog! 🙂
accepted. Even tho we do understand we do refrain from much around here…much to the dismay of NQ for hurting booman the way they did. I will never go back even to read the site…I really mean never, even as a link..I have burned my bridges, or should I have said they have with me. They and others know better…We respect around here. That is why I like it here….You are most welcome….and we enjoy your presence…lots of hugs…
Hi Brenda,
Leslie, formerly at NQ, here too for the same reasons. Have you seen Cee and Hurria [Shirin] around? FYI: I have some bad news…remember PrchrLady? She died last weekend, aged 59. It was sudden.
Anyway, getting back to Liza’s post: I’ve called Hillary lots of names lately. Although I’m glad the post was removed, primarily for the sake of Clinton supporters switching over and out of respect for Booman’s guidelines. Even though Liza just learned about them. We do need to start uniting as a party against McCain moving forward.
Oh, another thought on Liza’s deleted post: I read yours and StevenD’s remarks about the use of the B word and salvaging it or embuing it with new positive meaning. I didn’t quite get that. Perhaps because I don’t see how that can be done for words such as the N word or the B word, when their origins and etymology are negative. And I don’t see how using the B word as an insult against Clinton could retrieve it in a positive sense either?
Anyway….I didn’t have a problem with Liza’s post. But I’m glad that Booman has such strict rules regarding courtesy nonetheless, because it elevates the discussion.
Don’t give it a second thought. The gist was clear and cogent enough. It’s just that word that grates so much. Has your diary been completely removed?
.
Just part of a thread …
The original
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."As always thanks Oui…I missed the whole diary and was clueless here as to what was going on. Not being able to read the diary led me to imagine all sorts of awful things were said when in fact the link to liza’s diary is actually very good…I understand the word ‘bitch’ carries all kinds of triggers for people-myself included and never ever use the word. (well ok maybe in the privacy of my own home I uttered the word a few times to my 4 walls)
However given the way this is used in the diary I don’t see why it was pulled. The diary was to me more about the philosophical underpinning of the word itself, what that means to feminism and how it can or can not be applied to people…or even whether it should be.
thanks!
My only problem with it is that I took time to write some comments in response to someone who mentioned Narcissistic Personality Disorder only to have your post disappear just in time to get an error message!
Anyway, here is my comment:
Regarding NPD, it is entirely possible that Hillary has this disorder. It is even more likely that Bill has it – his chronic infidelity is one possible symptom – and Dubya is a classic case for sure.
Narcissists will do almost anything to maintain an endless supply of admiration and attention (“narcissistic supply”), and will fly into a rage (called narcissistic rage) when their carefully constructed image, which is really a hollow house of cards, is threatened. They have no capacity for empathy, and cannot feel and do not care at all about the feelings (physical or mental) of others except insofar as it affects them. They can be extremely charming, interesting, engaging, and fun, when they are getting what they need from you, and unbelievably vicious when they are not. They will build up a new person in their lives (generally their next victim-designate) to be larger than life and downright superhuman, then if the person insists their expectations be met, and does not provide the expected “supply” in the desired manner, they will drag them through the dirt, and finally drop them altogether, generally in a way carefully designed to be as painful as possible. It is quite possible to enjoy a relationship with a narcissist as long as you do not become emotionally invested in the relationship or expect anything from it.
They will insist that their sources of “supply” accept whatever misbehaviour they choose to engage in, up to and including serial infidelity (hmmmm – remind you of any other Clintons?). It’s usually OK, at least up to a point, if the source gets hurt, upset, or even angry because this is a sign of the narcissist’s importance, but the “source” had better not make demands, or make the relationship too uncomfortable for the narcissist, and had better keep that “supply” coming or all hell will break loose.
Narcissists can be VERY charming and engaging, though often, at least to me, the “charm” has a forced or pushed quality that I find very off-putting. They tend throughout their lives to leave a string of victims in their wake whom they first woo (often with considerable charm and skill), then later mistreat, often with extreme cruelty, and ultimately abandon.
They ARE deeply insecure, and feel almost constant anxiety. It’s a cruel, vicious disorder that is one of the least amenable to treatment. It is really very, very sad both for the narcissist and her/his victims (most narcissists are men, by the way).
Wow, I sure know some people like that. Where did you get this description? Did you just write it yourself?
I wrote that based on a combination of my own experiences with narcissists, and available information on the disorder.
You can google narcissistic personality disorder and find quite a bit about it on the web. It manifests in different ways with different people, but there are certain threads in common. In short, narcissists are the neediest people on earth, but they generally do a great job of hiding that fact.
This is so scary on point that I have to really look at it more closely. I mean, I was using a very negative archetype that has been readopted by many in the feminist community.
Yet what’s the basis or the psyche of that archetype. I do believe is very much NPD because it very well explains why The B is the polar and necessary opposite of The Victim –and NPDs are very people who truly see themselves as victims and people in need of dire attention.
Oh gosh Liza, I had no problems with it. Even though I understand the sensitive nature right now.
You made me dig this up, from Irene Claremont de Castillejo’s Knowing Woman: A Feminine Psychology. I’ve had this book for years & this is my favorite part. Page 74, chapter The Animus — Friend or Foe?
WOW!
I am going to have to read that now. I do think we need to have a serious conversation about the psychology of her campaign.
I’d love to read it if you write it! Welcome to the Frog Pond.
I never read that manifesto before — so it took a moment to grasp your full meaning. It’s in Journalistas: 100 Years of the Best Writing and Reporting by Women, which says its “one of the key texts of feminism’s second wave”. From reading the manifesto, I’m equating the Animus (de Castillejo was a Jungian analyst) with B. The former needs to be in conscious balance so it’s friend, not foe. The manifesto says B “serves the social function of isolating and discrediting a class of people who do not conform to the socially accepted patterns of behavior” — it’s reclaiming B so women have direct control (changing lowercase B to uppercase B) of how independent, strong women are defined in society. You say Clinton had an opportunity to redefine herself sheroically last night, but did not. Why did women lose last night? Because the first women to win a presidential primary, to get this close & blaze the trail, had the power to establish a different mode of feminine beingness (especially in the political sphere!), but instead she chose one of the usual suspects. (hope i got that right).
I thought what you wrote was challenging, informative & I totally loved getting into it. I love bloggers who push my brain cells. I’ll post more here & give you some mojo or something.
No worries is right. I love your work Liza. It’s an honor to have you here.
Steve
You don’t owe anyone an apology for your very thoughtful and well argued post.
I am very disappointed in this blog for going into a fit of knee-jerk political correctness, and for choosing censorship over reasoned debate.
They invite a feminist blogger to the front page, and then suppress her for making feminist arguments. Par for the course.
Well I was asleep when the whatever hit the fan, but I imagine someone must have been upset about it. Itls not fair, perhaps, but this is Martin’s blog and he doesn;t want to have people atb pro-Clinton blogs claiming he fell into their gutter (even if they never acknowledge he didn’t and that they’ve made it a permanent residence). heck I’ve given my share of apologies too.
I agree that Liza’s post was fine, but I was concerned that some people would take it the wrong way. I thought maybe an explanation of her usage of the terrible B word would suffice, but not having been here when the people who were most offended were commenting I can’t say why that wouldn’t or didn’t work.
On the other hand, I know there are a lot of people with raw feelings running around the day after losing the dream candidate (actually probably since Clinton didn’t win in February) and I suppose the timing was simply bad. It’s like that poor woman who got fired from the Obama campaign for calling Hillary a monster, and that’s a much less loaded term.
Anyway, once again, Liza, I support you, and I hope everyone here will take a chill pill and let her express herself the best way she knows how and give her the benefit of the doubt if you do think something she (or any of us, really) wrote is offensive.
Damn typos.
Thanks very much for the clarification, Steven. It does make me feel better (and that is not snark).
Still suppressing liza’s post goes completely against with the general line that Martin had been taking, most notably here The Clinton Campaign Makes You Stupid. Taking down liza’s post was a surrender to stupidity.
Still, if Martin wants to make tactical concessions, that’s his business, of course. Personally, I think such worrying about what “some people” might think, at the expense of truth, is more appropriate in the world of the corporate media than in the blogosphere.
Alexander, please see my update above which I hope clarifies the decision making process that went into this.
I’ve repeated this many times now, but, really I’m just a guest in this awesome frog pond party but I know that if I’m going to have go-go boys serving my mojitos, I gotta get that party going on in my blog 🙂
Alexander, with due respect, we haven’t agreed on nearly anything before, so it’s no surprise we disagree now.
It was wrong, it was taken down. It’s not our style here at the Frog pond. It goes against the only rule there is: don’t be a prick. Using that kind of language to me falls into the being a prick category.
I disagree. It’s a huge stretch to say that the post in question broke the “don’t be a prick rule”.
I do however find Booman’s policy (the one that caused the post to be taken down, as we now know from Steven’s “update”) to be justified on practical grounds.
For the record : You didn’t read the original post. You don’t have any context on why was using the The Bitch Manifesto and why within the context of feminism we need to discuss last night’s speech.
At a minimum it would have been productive to have read the post before going around this thread making it seem like I used the word as a casual insult.
Because I didn’t nor I don’t.
I have to agree with this. I found nothing offensive in the post.
I think She has a problem.
Why not post as a diary instead of a front page article?
That was Liza’s choice, and i respect it. I’m sure she wanted to communicate clearly to those who had been most offended by the word her regret for their offense.
Please see my update to her apology above for further details.
Sorry, I meant the original, not the apology.
btw, I’d like to commend you and all of the front pagers for keeping an amazing balance between posting insightful and sometimes controversial articles while remaining sensitive to the needs and feelings of the community. You really do fine work.
You know, for the most part this is a very good community of people, and I feel lucky to be posting here. No community is perfect but when I look around the blogosphere I count my blessings let me assure you. The level of civility and respect is light years above what you get at a lot of other places imho.
So I thank all of you.
heh, looks like i should’ve refreshed the page first.
Certainly not the first time we’ve done that 🙂
Hopefully there won’t be a next time, but yes, I was rushing out to the door when I realized I should have done a diary instead.
Boo me.
Liza, I for one am not that thin skinned that I can not understand. I did not complain and from now on am watching for your diaries. I want to read them with excitement and I enjoyed what you wrote.
My heart is always in a forgiving mode…:o) As far as I am concerned, you are very welcome here and will be as long as Booman wants you to be here. His only rule is do not make a prick out of yourself and I try hard not to be come one of them….so stay and find our pond a good place to post what you feel..BTW, most of us agree with you….;o) or should I say I do, anyhow. I have never liked her an will not for a very long time given the attitude she has and she is only out for herself…This is not due to sexism, this is due to her narcissistic self. I do not care how much she thinks she is due the WH, she is not and we want someone other then her and it showed up in theelection…why she can’t get with the program is sad for all both men and women.
Anyhow, stay true to yourself and say what you want, for I sure do…:o) Either we agree or we don’t and if I do notgree I will go on to otherthings to read…that is just me.
BTW, you can come and do my shopping if you want…I always hate to do it and then unload it and put things away.
Thanks Brenda!
Y’all have been awesome and totally full of win.
I’m working on the next post 🙂
Oh, you meant the article? Hmmm. It’s still here, it’s just buried. And you can still go to my blog if you’d like to discuss it there.
If it hasn’t been completely nuked, how about putting it up as a diary? There was some good discussion happening in the comments.
Manny see the update above. BooMan had a policy of no gender specific criticisms of Clinton, which he was reminded about this morning by emailers. I think if Liza is willing to rewrite the post without incorporating the use of the B word, that could be done on the front page, but whether she wants to take the time and effort to do that is up to her.
Again, let me reiterate that this isn’t Liza’s fault, its our fault for not communicating that policy to her which BooMan had put in place to limit the level of sexist remarks regarding Clinton. The people who complained were well within their rights to demand that he enforce the policy. To do otherwise would have been hypocritical on his part.
i hear ya. didn’t see the update prior to posting. that’s what i get for leaving my desk for a few minutes and not hitting refresh. now if only i could do that with my brain and have it happen automatically.
Refresh, refresh, refresh…
Oh I so know what you mean, lol.
The whole point is the Manifesto Steve and how it relates to her actions. I didn’t write a willy-nilly insult and you know that 🙂
Yes I know. It’s unfortunate that the not everyone saw it that way.
You can always have the discussion on my site, or if you’re using it, FriendFeed 🙂
http://culturekitchen.com/node/12379
Ain’t easy running one of these sites, is it?
Well,it is if you don’t care about respecting the feelings of people who may disagree with you. I like to think we try to take a different approach to that here, and treat everyone with respect and civility as best as we are able as flawed human beings.
Hey, you have my respect and admiration, for what it’s worth.
in the last 24 hours.
At the risk of being controversial, I’m going to go ahead and say…. That throughout the past few months, Hillary’s actions and words were frequently distasteful to me, but never in a gender-specific way for me. (Other than wishing that, as a fellow woman, she was a better role model for women in leadership roles.) However, what made yesterday over the top for me and pushed me to not object to the B word (which had previously made me wince every time I’d seen it to describe HRC) is that she was acting in a way that is distinctly feminine in our society. When my friends act this way, even my male friends, they call each other “bitchy” or “catty”. These are of course derogatory feminine terms in the broader social context, but in my circles “bitch” and “asshole” describe specific kinds of bad behavior that both men and women engage in. Men can be backstabbing and passive aggressive. Women can be blunt and selfish and mean. And B*** just seemed like the right word. So while I respect and understand the rules here, I do think that Liza’s post would be deprived of a good deal of its meaning if she scrubbed out the Bs.
Then you need to read the post
http://culturekitchen.com/node/12379
and ESPECIALLY the feminist manifesto I linked to because it will soOoo put into context last night’s speech.
I did indeed read them both already! Good stuff. With both race and gender, pretending everyone’s the same and has the same perspective seems like a willfully stupid approach… Which is why Obama’s race speech was so exciting to me. The strong cultural coding of gender makes it hard and even inaccurate to use gender-neutral language – to me, the important part is being aware of when language is gender-specific.
Anyways, I enjoyed your post and the ensuing discussions.
I can completely understand, and support the desire to avoid any appearance of sexism in regard to the campaign, though as I have learned, you will be accused no matter what.
As improbable as it is, I have been accused of sexism in my choice not to support Hillary despite the fact that I have made it very clear that I cannot support her based entirely on her record on foreign and military policy, her utter disregard for human rights when it is inconvenient (including but not limited to the cases ofIraq, Lebanon, and Palestine), and her incessant pandering to AIPAC*. Oddly, I have not so far as I know been accused of racism for refusing to support Obama, although I have been less specific about my reasons.
Having said that, in general people really do need to stop getting all heated up when they hear certain words, specifically the “b” and the “n” word. Context and intent are everything, and as long as they are as clear as I can make them, I am going to use whatever word I can find that will express what I am wanting to say.
I use the “b” word without shame, including applying it to certain people (male AND female), as well as inanimate objects and circumstances when the occasion warrants it, and I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. It is a perfectly good word that sometimes expresses just right the idea one is trying to convey, and I will not apologize for using it.
As for the “n” word, I rarely find an appropriate occasion to use it, but I have been taken to task for using it in a completely innocent and appropriately expressive way, simply because it has become a “forbidden” word. For example, I once got harshly scolded for saying that “Arabs and Muslims are the niggers of the 21st century”. The meaning was perfectly clear from the context of the discussion, and yet a couple of the more prissy-pants politically-correct-speech police got all over me for using that word. I maintain that no other word would have said what I wanted to say as succinctly and as effectively as that word did, and I remain to this day unapologetic about its use simply because some people have chosen to make an irrational rule.
So, people need to chill out a bit and consider the context and the intent before going all huffy on someone’s ass for using a particular word. Really.
*I have mentioned elsewhere, but perhaps not here, the time she responded to “concerns” on the part of AIPAC, ADC, and other Jewish political groups by making a P.R. event out of returning Muslim contributions to her Senatorial campaign, needless to say a huge public slap in the face to Muslims in general and her Muslim supporters in particular.
I didn’t see that story – all I saw was the withdrawal notice. But for the record, I’m offended any time I see that word used by ostensibly literate people. It’s cheap and not worthy of any writer, in my opinion. I’m glad it was pulled. This isn’t just about Hillary. It’s a dehumanizing term for women that I don’t think deserves use.
It’s just a word, and an exceptionally useful and expressive one at that. It is not the word itself, but the manner and intent with which it is used that determines whether it is good, bad, or indifferent.
PS I suggest you stay strictly away from dog shows and people who show dogs because there you hear it about every tenth word, both in conversation, and blasted over the loudspeaker system. You would probably have an aneurism before the day was finished. :o}and would be perpetually offended.
Having lived all over the world I have realized different places have different standards. In NYC, where Liza and I live and blog, profanity is commonplace. I mean really commonplace. You can’t walk down the street or get on the subway without hearing profanity in a dozen different languages. Elsewhere people view prfanity at best a crutch (a friend’s word for it) or at worst offensive and unacceptable.
I know women who LIKE the term applied to them. It implies strength and messing with the patriarchal paradigm. And I know gay guys who also use it in a positive way. Who is right? It really IS used in a dehumanizing way yet others turn it around (much like the terms queer or nigger) and make it their own. Each community is different. And standards are worth respecting…or thwarting, depending on the context.
Use of “dirty words” is not the same thing as the use of the word bitch or nigger (as in Arabs and Muslims are the niggers of the 21st century – can anyone argue with that?!) to make a point in a discussion. A certain delicacy and discretion in any use of the former is always a good idea, but anyone who is offended hearing the latter in any and every context needs to get over it. There are some contexts in which it is perfectly appropriate, and calling it the “b” word, or the “n” word is just a bit too precious.
I see your distinction and agree with it. But I have found that the tolerance for one is also tolerance for the other. I am used to all such terms working in Manhattan and living in Brooklyn. I don’t disagree with what you are saying. But I do find that in many places such words are accepted or even welcomed. I know people who consider the word “bitch” a postitive. I have never heard “nigger” used in a positive sense, but I have heard it used very deliberately by blacks. I wouldn’t use it, but they did and emphasized it. I think these words can’t be feared. Because some people do use them deliberately and commonly. But I also think they can’t be used lightly because they are seen as offensive by many.
NO problem. Once again let me say welcome to the community!!!
I’d like to say for the record that I have no problem with the original post (at least what I read at Culture Kitchen, but I also understand and respect the sensibilities of those who would rather never see the “B word” in print.
As always, The Rude One has his own way of making the same point…
Thanks for the link Oscar….that was way too much fun and I’m definitely in the mood for some rude right now…he had me ‘wee skeevy slug fucker’…although oddly I read it at first as ‘wee skeevy flug sucker’..
Living in NYC it is hard to remember the restrictions on language that most people in America feel. In California people will threaten you if you say “fuck you” while in NYC it is practically the equivalent of saying “hello.”
I work and live with people who use so un-PC language that I have to be careful of the habits this leads me to. I can’t even publicly say some of the stuff that is said, in jest, in my work place. What amazes me is how no one is offended by it in the context of where I work even though it goes beyond what I would consider normally acceptable. Everyone realizes the context and, if anything, takes it to the next step.
I usually avoid the offensive terms when I blog…but not always. Sometimes I feel they are integral to the point I am making. Not everyone agrees, needless to say. But my day to day language is very different from what I use online. Particularly nationally because I know “bad words” are taken more seriously some places compared with others.
Culture Kitchen, being run largely by profane NYC people, tends to be quite open to profanity and not so PC as most sites. The result, perhaps paradoxically, is it has become the site where racial, gender, ethnic, religious, and cultural issues are freely discussed far more than most places. Not sure how we managed that, but I am glad we have succeeded in making it a place where profanity AND sensitivity coexist.
There is a big difference between the use of profanities such as f** and s**, etc., and the thoughtful use of words like bitch and nigger.
True. I see what you mean. But in NYC I have been exposed to the common use of both. The casual use of profanity as well as people I know referring to Condaleeza Rice as a “House Nigger” with all the force of history behind that comment. Liza used the term “Bitch” pretty deliberately I assume(knowing Liza who probably wouldn’t always mind that term applied to herself). Just like my friends who deliberately use the term “House Nigger.” Right or wrong? I can argue either way. And I don’t really take a position. But I will say that in some environments such terms are thrown around far more readily than in other. To the point where I am comfortable with words used among my co-workers that I wouldn’t be comfortable with in a group of strangers. Are we strangers here or co-workers, metaphorically speaking. I guess probably both which suggests the best approach is to avoid such terms.