It’s hard to explain exactly why the FISA bill upsets me so much. But I’ll give it a try. I can break it down into two broad categories. The first is damage. There are different kinds of damage. Running up enormous debts does damage to future taxpayers, among other things. It’s one thing if you run up debt to builds roads and bridges and do medical research that will be useful to future generations. But if you just run up debt to blow stuff up it doesn’t help future generations at all. They’ll have to pay to rebuild all that stuff. Some of them will, anyway. But, who knows, maybe we’ll have stupendous economic growth and mitigate the damage from Bush’s economic policies. Most of the damage Bush has done, aside from to our nation’s reputation, has been reversible even in the short-term. He’s set a bunch of terrible precedents and those precedents are dangerous. But, at least in theory, we can set new precedents that supersede the bad ones. We can pass new laws and regulations and enforce them that make much of what Bush did illegal. But that leads to the second thing that really bothers me.
The FISA bill legalizes illegal behavior. And it does it in a way that will prevent us from ever knowing the extent of the illegal behavior that we are legalizing. If we knew the extent of the illegal behavior we’d probably make it even more illegal than it was before. But we’ll never get to make that judgment…because we’re making it legal. When Iran-Contra was revealed, we investigated it. We actually learned most of what happened. And we didn’t decide to retroactively make it legal to ignore the statutory will of Congress. It’d be more accurate to say that we gave Reagan and Bush a pass, but we reiterated that the law should not be broken. Americans will argue over whether it was mistake to give Reagan and Bush a pass, but how many people believe we should have been kept in the dark about what happened?
And, in any case, the law remained the law. If Congress said you cannot spend money to arm the Mongolians for an invasion of North Korea, then it was still a crime to arm the Mongolians. Twenty years later, we’re not so sure that Congress can pass laws that limit the executive branch that will be enforceable. A big reason for that is that a lot of the people that were involved in Iran-Contra came to power in the second Bush administration and they interpreted the law in a new and unprecedented way.
So, there was a cost to not enforcing the law back in the late eighties and early nineties. That cost was the erosion of the separation of powers, or the very ability to enforce the law. That’s the kind of precedent that we’re setting again. Only, this time, we’re not even getting the facts. This is a very dangerous erosion of the rule of law and the power of Congress. So, these are the reasons that the FISA law is so disturbing. It creates irreversible damage. Destroying the truth forever is not a good idea. It’s an especially bad idea when we have a recent history that demonstrates that real damage is done to our system of government when we look the other way at executive overreach.
There are huge problems with the FISA bill that relate to privacy and opportunity for abuse. But the retroactive immunity portion of the bill will deny us from having the facts. And without the facts, we can’t have an honest debate about the correct remedies and the correct balance between liberty and security.
I see FISA as part of the erosion of law that has systematically been happening already.
Somehow (it’s late so not too much intelligent thought from me at this point)..
anyway, somehow this came to mind;
A German immigrant related in her blog how the rise of National Socialism (Fascism in Germany preWW2) in the school’s history classes were taught. Liberties were taken away ‘one salami slice’ at a time. By the time you realize you have no rights left, there’s no more salami.
So as much as I know the FISA bill is bad, I see it as ‘just’ one more thing to add to all the other illegal and criminal behaviour that has come forth from the Bush administration. Americans have too much of a certain national self image that somehow does not seem to allow them to compute that this is such an anti-democratic behaviour.. I’m not even talking about FISA. Guantanamo, extraordinary rendition, dismissing international law by engaging in military aggression, oh and this one always gets me; having libraries keep records of what you take out. I know I know, I told you it’s late..
but there you have it. It’s just one more salami slice and I’m cynical enough to believe that there won’t be any left soon.. but somehow that doesn’t computer with my brain either so I have to settle for hope..
Ingrid
part of this is understanding what we’re doing that makes people want to attack us so badly. we never discuss that. but if we were at least willing to look at that question we’d be able to decide how much less intigating we can afford to get away with.
maybe it really is in our national interest to do some things that invite inevitable backlash. but we should at least identify what those things are.
Yes! If large numbers of people are willing to strap explosive to their bodies and blow themselves up in order to hurt us, we don’t need to be asking what’s wrong with them. We need to be asking what’s wrong with us.
Booman, it’s all about oil and Middle East hypocrisies. Israel is a very convenient means of divide and conquer for the rest of that region and as I’m sure you know or realize, a proxy intercessor for the US. What Americans cannot understand is the aparent hatred, but when you tally up over the last say, 50sh years or so of unfair and unequal treatment in relation to Israel, it’s a start. Also, when I browse foreign media the coverage of American airstrikes in for instance Pakistand where MAYBE one targeted enemy got killed and oh yes, 20 or more innocent civilians who hardly receive any mention or shock or outrage here, well, it’s feeding the seeds that have been sown. My mother who visits from the Netherlands despises US customs for their arrogant and ignorant treatment of her.. having your fingerprints and picture taken each time you come for a visit? (She’s a 67yr old grandmother) Then when you get asked why are you here – a visit- for how long- 2months- why?-I am visiting my family- why?- ehmm..I am visiting my family- ok, could you step over to the office please (for further interrogation although they ask the same questions)..
there are plenty of reasons but it requires honest self reflection which will get you into trouble with those who consider you a self hating American . You know, like those Jews who are critical of Israel and get denounced as self hating Jews..
arrogance and the sheer power to overrule any objection , that is a start.
I’m sure others can add more to that..however, if only Republicans would question those overt domination policies, then perhaps as a nation this country can self exam, (grow up in the process) and redirect. That said, as CARLIN said, you are not in charge! The powers that be are running this will never allow that.
Ingrid
The phrase I came up with for an article I’m never going to get written was “they’ve been boiling this particular frog for a very long time.”
Excellent summary, Booman.
That’s what so upset me over the Church committee investigation. They walked right up to the door of crimes, then knocked softly so as not to disturb anyone, and ran from the door when they were told all was alright inside. They only investigated what the CIA allowed them to investigate. And rather than face a showdown leading to civil war or a constitutional crisis, they quietly legalized the CIA’s domestic activities.
And that’s how we came to be promising immunity to the Telcos.
Every time – EVERY time we let someone off the hook for a crime, we legitimize the crime. I believe the first Bush administration was enabled by the Church Committee’s lack of aggression in pursuing the illegalities and pressing for prosecutions. We got a surface level investigation of the CIA’s assassination plots. And it’s not like they didn’t have other info. I have in my files a letter from Bud Culligan, CIA asset, answering questions regarding “executive actions”, i.e., assassinations, he performed on behalf of the US. He named Dag Hammarsjkold, for one.
Imagine the Church Committee faced with that information. There were two choices. One, tell the truth and lose all standing before the world as any kind of a moral power. Or keep it covered, work quietly to try to effect some reforms, and hope it didn’t come back to bite us.
Well, it’s come back to bite us. The so-called secret government, which isn’t so secret with Cheney as VP, has felt embolden by decades of permissiveness.
We need a real crackdown. We need a war crimes tribunal. We need some very serious punishment.
And it’s not coming.
And when our elected officials fail us, we have no choice but to protest. LOUDLY. Not in words, but in action.
I’ll wait and see what the Senate does. I’ve called my Senators. I’ve signed petitions. I’ve donated money to replace Hoyer. But next, I fear, we’re going to need to hit the streets in protest. Anything less guarantees us more of the same.
yet, by these standards, the Church Committee was excellent. It revealed enough to mobilize people for serious reforms. It may have held back some to preserve our national self-confidence, but it recognized that a lot had been done in our name that needed to be halted. I’d actually settle for that.
I’m not being snarky; this is a serious question. I approve of “hitting the streets,” and I think we aren’t doing enough of it. It would have some beneficial unintended consequences as well if enough of it were done; for instance, if the MSM isn’t going to cover any protests that happen, we’re going to have to set up our own communications network to let ourselves know what’s going on out there in the world. Blogs are a good start for that, but if the Federales start deciding people are getting serious about going to the mat, it wouldn’t surprise me to see the Internet seized by the DHS in the name of National Security.
No, if taking over the government from the inside doesn’t work, I think it’ll eventually be necessary to shut the country down. A general strike. The problem is, Americans have been pacified to the point where it’s OK to take their essential liberties away if they can still have their cable TV. Going out and working for liberty? That’s so 1776.
Lisa
You hit the nail on the head. By not holding anyone to account since the 70s – these same Nixon holdouts – Cheney & Rumsfeld and their acolytes have taken it to another extreme where they are the law.
We are only a few steps away from a complete stripping of all liberties and a dictatorial fascist rule.
I agree we need criminal prosecutions. We need an independent grand jury to investigate and make public the crimes and prosecute each and everyone of these guys starting with the guys at the top. And like the War Crimes Tribunal after WWII – following orders cannot be a defense. Only if there is a price will this lawlessness get checked.
Go back another ten years, ab. Or maybe go back to the end of WWII.
I think the Church Committee example is excellent. There were a number of investigations in the seventies, some arising in Congress, others arising from within the Ford Administration or the agencies themselves. They all ended up as, what was the phrase caught on tape, “modified limited hangouts.”
I am deeply afraid of this FISA debacle, but I think it is an opportunity for people to recognize that it isn’t only the abusive Republicans and the Democrats who love them who got us here, it is a system that has been corrupted by the secret police forces, the international Pinkertons if you will, that have metastasized inside the body politic since the war. Eisenhower talked about the military-industrial complex, but what held it together were the police/spy agencies. When JFK said he was going to tear the CIA into a thousand pieces he was on the right track, although he probably signed his own death warrant right then.
NO ONE doubts it is a bad bill. What you don’t get is, you are not in Congress. You have a website, so it is easy to have the answers.
And why did you put this all on the back of Obama. That was entirelly wrong.
He never even voted on it.
You think throwing Obama under the bus for one issue is the right thing to do. Then I guess you think President McCain will do everything for you.
Obama is running a campaign in the entire Country, not in San Francisco. He is already being called a terrorist lover by the media.
There are also a lot of Congressmen in Republican districts. Call them scared or whatever will make you feel better. The fact is they probably have to hug the middle.
President Obama will not be spying on you. He will change many things that Bush got away with. And for now, he will have to support some Congressman you don’t like because he will need them to accomplish the things he wants.
Like it or not, you are not going to vote out every member of Congress.
There are some very brutal issues President Obama will have to deal with. But first he must get elected, with a nice big majority.
So he is not going to spend every day trying to go after AT&T. That would be incredibly stupid.
And most of America will have no idea what he is talking about and most media will say he is trying to protect the terrorists.
America has issues. And FISA is way down the list. Like it or not.
I haven’t thrown anyone under any buses. I think you may have that particular imagery somewhat backwards.
There are plenty of people who have blamed Obama for FISA but I don’t recall Booman as one of them. I think a greater number have demanded some kind of political leadership from Obama in stopping this, and I would include Booman in that group.
I really don’t know what Obama has done behind the scenes, but it’s pretty clear that Hoyer and Pelosi are doing the pushing on this with the full knowledge of Obama’s public position. If there is a core of Dems, call them DLC Dems, that are willing to push this through despite their candidate’s stated position, then their motivation is pretty damned strong.
I was on a picket line last Friday and Cindy Sheehan showed up. Did I mention this already? Hardly anyone noticed her. Point being that although Pelosi’s district is compact and the kind of district where retail political campaigning would work, Sheehan doesn’t have the skills or charisma to close the sale, even with Pelosi approaching war criminal status. Pelosi hasn’t brought home much bacon for San Francisco, there’s talk of a subway from Market Street into Chinatown, and a good lefty politician willing to take on the local machine, someone like Matt Gonzalez, might have actually beaten her. Alas.
Fast forward to 2009. For the sake of this question, the current FISA bill has passed intact. A case based on that law goes to the Supreme Court. The court rules the FISA law unconstitutional.
Does that mean that the immunity provisions are repealed and it’s once again legal to go after the telcos?
I’m just trying to think of where things could go from here. Of course I hope the Senate rejects the bill for whatever reason (e.g. the filibuster holds) but I want to know what’s in store if, FSM forbid, it doesn’t.
My thought too.
It seems that a bill essentially destroying the Fourth Amendment would be on its face unconstitutional. Then again ever since the courts said that those random DUI stops and roadblocks were not violations of the 4th I’ve been repeatedly dismayed at how courts handle these issues.
Which leads to even wilder speculation. Suppose that the backers of this bill know that it’s unconstitutional. They realize that they can live within the original FISA but have advanced this bill to give all the participants in the illegal spying some kind of cover. Can you revoke the get-out-jail free cards after they’ve been issued? Can a participant reasonably argue in court: “The executive branch told us to do it and to keep secret about it, and then Congress said we could do it. What else could we do?”
Good question. My thought is that if Congress grants immunity, then takes it back, any spying that was done while the immunity was in force would be immune from prosecution, because that would clearly be ex post facto. But anything that happened up until the date the unconstitutional law was signed would be covered by the law, and the telcos could claim that they were covered by FISA.
Of course I am not a lawyer, so if any telco executives are reading this, I would encourage them to consult their own counsel.
Or not.
The irony is that shrill lefty bloggers are now the most ardent defenders of the Constitution. I can remember when conservatives used to take pride in that role.
OK- the post is great as is the commentaries.
I only have one question- a periphal–
Why the hell is the O man going to be absent for this vote?
I know I am late on this but- WHY??????
Who said he was?
Where is Obama…will he show up to aid the filibuster?
via Thinkprogress
Reid to co-sponsor effortr to strip retroactive immunity from FISA bill (updated)